Quoting Quiverfull: Men Imagine Sex Only as a Goal, Not as a Relationship?

Quoting Quiverfull: Men Imagine Sex Only as a Goal, Not as a Relationship? January 5, 2016

quotingquiverfullby Larry Solomon from Biblical Gender Roles.com – Is Sexual Fantasy Outside a Relational Context Sinful? and as always linked to through Do Not Link.

Editor note: Again Larry is trying to justify drooling over his neighbor’s wife as if she were a savory steak. I thought the Bible was pretty clear about lust, but Larry is parsing it differently. What do you think?

Just like in many other areas, men and women tend to exercise their imaginations in different ways. Now this is not to say that some men don’t have imaginations similar to that of women and that some women don’t have imaginations similar to men but there are some distinct differences between the genders in this area.

Let me frame this outside the sexual arena first.

I have loved science fiction from the time I was little. I grew up on Star Wars and all the Star Trek TV Shows and movies. I was a big fan of the Lord of the Rings books and was thrilled to go and watch each one at the movie theaters. I loved and still love the Marvel and DC comic super heroes and there is are few super hero movies that I have not seen.

Is it a coincidence that the majority of Science fiction and fantasy fans are men? I don’t think so. I am not saying there are not women who are into these things as well because I know of them. But they are the minority.

Now some men may not be like me and they may hate sci-fi. But often they have some other area that they spend a great deal of time imagining about like sports, hunting, combat or architecture.

Women have been brought more into the fantasy worlds with series like the Twilight saga and other books but the way they are brought in is because of the romance and relational aspects.

So as we can see while both men and women do engage in various forms of imagination – men’s imaginations tend to be “action” based while for most women their imaginations tend to be “relation” based.

Let me say this another way – we as men imagine ourselves doing things like fighting the bad guy in a superhero or war movie or flying that star fighter while women typically imagine relational things like a man kissing them, or their wedding, or how they will decorate their house or holding their child for the first time.

Now let me bring this back to the sexual arena. A man imagines having sex with a woman much in the same way he might imagine himself scoring that touch down in the super bowl, firing that sniper shot that killed the bad guy or flying the millennium falcon in Star Wars. These are all actions to him.

A man can imagine having sex with a woman completely outside the context of any kind of relationship.

QUOTING QUIVERFULL is a regular feature of NLQ – we present the actual words of noted Quiverfull leaders, cultural enforcers and those that seek to keep women submitted to men and ask our readers: What do you think? Agree? Disagree? This is the place to state your opinion. Please, let’s keep it respectful – but at the same time, we encourage readers to examine the ideas of Quiverfull and Spiritual Abuse honestly and thoughtfully.

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NLQ Recommended Reading …

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce

13:24 – A Story of Faith and Obsession by M Dolon Hickmon

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  • Nea

    I could bury BGR alive in the fanzines, letterzines, costumes, and art created by female Star Wars and Star Trek fans. I would know, I was there from the beginning. The idea that fans are all teenaged males is actually annoying to those of us who are old enough to have birthed the boys now grunting “but gurlz dunt like sciffy!” Women attended the first Worldcon. Conventions now are either 50/50 or tilt towards women.

    Also? First science fiction novel = Frankenstein. First superhero story = The Scarlet Pimpernel. Look up the authors. Women created his precious fandoms.

    As for “men can imagine sex outside a relationship” — guess WHAT, you tedious child.

  • Mary

    Need more upvotes!

    And while he’s at it, he should look up Leigh Brackett. Who indulged her imagination pretty deeply on action sequences from The Empire Strikes back… which I know because she *wrote the first draft of the script.*

    Gah. Ashamed to share a fandom with guys like these. Now I know what this guy’s deal is. He is a “Sad Puppy.”

    A group with that nickname, who shared exactly these ideas about science fiction screwed with the voting for SF fandom’s biggest awards last year, voting as a block to stop the nomination of anything (by women or people of color especially) that explored relationships or social institutions. They want their SF to be more “pew! pew! pew!” and less talking. (see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies )

    I think that is this guy’s actual cultural background, and this whole “Biblical” thing is just a pose he’s trying out.

  • Saraquill

    I don’t think he even knows what a woman is, or know what one looks like.

  • Aloha

    – He’s one of the men who is an expert on women.
    – One of the heterosexual people who is an expert on homosexual people.
    – One of the Christian people who is an expert on non-Christian people.
    – One of the rich who is an expert on the poor.

    Hey! It happens … at least theoretically.

  • Anonyme

    Ironic that he mentioned ‘Twilight’, since it glorifies the type of abusive relationship he encourages.

  • Abigail Smith

    “A man can imagine having sex with a woman completely outside the context of any kind of relationship.” except if he’s a christian, he’s ignoring these words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28 “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
    I don’t know what bible these people are reading.
    (this is not to offend anyone here who is not a believer)

  • jennabobenna

    Really?! The main reason men like him don’t think women are as interested in “masculine” things like Sci-Fi or gaming is because “men” like him threaten and hurl abuse at the women who dare to claim membership to the Geek club. I got really into Halo a few years back, and I was regularly attacked by male players because I didn’t hide behind a male gamertag and armor. On more than one occasion, I thought about changing my online persona to a male and blocking the chat feature, but the males who befriended me and respected my gaming prowess outweighed the negativity.

    I know just as many women who game and love Sci-Fi as I do men. Maybe Mr. BGR missed the fact that Leia wasn’t on his patriarchal BS. She was too busy kicking ass and taking names. Or the fact that Star Trek featured the first interracial kiss on TV. Or that so many bad ass females were kicking ass and taking names in LOTR. As much as women are underrepresented and overly sexualized in Sci-Fi and fantasy media, there are still a lot of examples of women who would kick BGR’s teeth in for writing the drivel he puts out.

  • Astrin Ymris

    You said it before I could! There have been women involved in science fiction and fantasy– as both fans and creators– from the beginning.

    Yet also from the beginning, there have been men who’ve fought to defend the borders of SF as a male-only clubhouse by marginalizing and mocking female fans, and insisting– based on no evidence whatsoever that I know of– that SciFi/Fantasy fandom is a mostly-male preserve.

  • Word, little man, I was a Trekkie before it was cool.
    You, OTOH, wouldn’t know real cool if it walked up to you in a leather miniskirt and frenched you.

  • Allison the Great

    There are lots of female players that simply don’t play online because of that bullshit. That’s probably why these guys think that gaming girls are in the minority. We just go story mode with the games and stay away from the bullshit and the threats. I don’t play video games so that some MRA douche can threaten to rape me or do whatever. I do it to relax and have fun.

    And like you said, so many of us have male handles (I do, kind of, my PS Network ID is male-ish) that they don’t even know if they’re female or not.

  • Allison the Great

    Wow, he actually went down the “women don’t like SciFi, they like Twilight and when they do like SciFi, they’re not that into it” that so many MRA’s go down. They have no evidence of this, they just going by what they want to be true. Has this douche bag not seen pictures from the latest cons? Other commenters have mentioned that women have been writing and producing it from the beginning, but Larry’s head is too far up his ass to acknowledge these women.

  • Nightshade

    Funny, I like Star Wars, love Star Trek and Lord of the Rings, and Doctor Who-how could the Doctor be omitted from that list?!-and loath Twilight. And if anything most of the men I know are more relationship-minded and emotional than I am. But you go ahead and keep telling yourself that women and men are on opposite sides of that particular fence, Larry, while we women take action, kick ass, and fly those star fighters.

  • Antoinette Herrera

    So El Gran Pendejo thinks that girls (and women) don’t get their geek on, huh?! I was swiping my brother’s Marvel and DC comics as a grade schooler in the 70s. I read Lovecraft and Tolkien at the tender age of 12. I have read Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and Ursula K. LeGuin. I’ve been a Whovian since 1979, an otaku since 1990, and a slash fangirl since about 2002.

    As for his assertion that men get sexy thoughts looking at women, news flash: women can look at men and have a few thoughts of their own.

    All I have to say to this pinche pendejo is: bite me, fanboy.

  • zardeenah

    Not to mention Marcia Lucas, the person who made star wars the movie we love -by being the person who told George no, and using her editing skills to fix the script and the first version of the film – her editing is why we didn’t get something like the prequels in 1977. (Well, that and Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford)


  • Allison the Great

    Yeah, I mean I don’t know how Larry the Douche would explain male strippers and porn for women.

  • bekabot

    I can already tell where this is gonna go. “It’s perfectly legit if I fantasize about doing my neighbor’s wife, ‘cuz I’d never wanna touch her otherwise and I don’ttvir n penc about a word she’s got to say. But it’s not legit if my wife wants to get together with her neighbor’s husband ‘cuz she’s gotta sorta kinda like him first. Men can’t commit real adultery in their heads because, for one thing, they’re too busy thinking about Star Wars. But women can commit adultery in their heads because all they ever think about is men. That’s why all the prohibitions against adultery must have been aimed exclusively at women because men, as we must all admit, aren’t really equipped to commit it — all men can really do is znfgheongr jvgu n cnegare. Too bad so sad!! So say I and gb Uryy jvgu Wrfhf.

    In a way it’s reassuring that these guys are so predictable but nevertheless one gets into a state of mind in which one wishes that once, just once, just once, they’d come up with something different — but one wishes in vain, and probably/ultimately, that’s for the best.

  • Maybe he needs to watch “Magic Mike”

  • Nightshade

    Oh, but those women are perverted and unnatural, fighting against their ‘god-given’ sweet, gentle, nonsexual nature in order to be more like men…at least in Larry’s world.

  • Mary

    Yes! Star Wars is a terrible example to use for “something women couldn’t possibly understand.” Women are instrumental in the history of Star Wars and in the world(s) of Star Wars.

    He’d have better luck with examples from the comics, but then, I just read The Secret History of Wonder Woman by Jill Lepore (it was great) and it turns out that even the history of comic books is quite tangled up with the history of feminism. The SF and comics worlds were never as much of a boys club as the Sad Puppies would like to pretend.

  • SAO

    Maybe we women can’t stand the rampant sexism in SciFi.

  • Allison the Great

    Yes, because when we’re human, we’re fighting against our god given nature. *eyeroll*

  • Nightshade

    Yep. Larry’s god doesn’t allow us to be human. Only men get that privilege.

  • KarenH

    Well, to be fair, it’s easy to see why Larry doesn’t know women can look at a man and think Yum!! It’s clearly never been his experience.

    I think we can all understand why.

  • Antoinette Herrera

    Would his head explode, or would a nosebleed kill him first?

  • Allison the Great

    Women are just for decoration and sex. Goddammit, it’s time we learned our place! /Sarcasm

  • silverstar

    I’m surprised that he even acknowledges that there are female sci-fi/fantasy fans. It’s just a shame that he had to bring up something like the Twilight series (which glorifies an abusive relationship and the idea that a woman needs a man in order to be happy) to recognize our existence since in his view, women don’t care about the actual sci-fi/fantasy aspects of these series, we only care about the romance because that’s how our brains are wired.

  • Allyson Smith

    I love how he deludes himself into believing that women don’t ever indulge in sexual fantasies about men outside of the context of a relationship.

  • Allyson Smith

    Women don’t have action hero-fantasies and rarely enjoy fantasy, sci-fi, or superhero stories? Wow, my female friends and I must’ve been really weird for girls when we were growing up. That, and all the female teaches who recommended different fantasy books for me like LotR and ASoIaF, must’ve been exceptional too.


  • Evelyn

    Or sexual fantasies, period.

  • Nightshade

    One can always hope.

  • Plain English

    Let’s not forget that Larry is not only factually uninformed, he is also emotionally blunted…. people who become intimate even in a seemingly limited (ha) physical way have some conception of ‘relationship’, which Larry reserves only for women. He does this because he is a damaged male, poor thing. If he was to seek help for his emotional challenges with someone other than a pastor therapist! he would discover that he too could care about someone else in a deeper way. Rather than face that he hefts his Bible and cries, Jeeeessssus! So, he is correct, he must be cuz he says Jesus.

  • BridgetD

    Now that you mention it, Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey seem to be right up BGR’s alley.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Apparently, he’s not aware that the majority of Science fiction/Fantasy fanfiction writers are women… including the explicit slash and het categories. Or that PWP (Porn Without Plot or Plot? What Plot?) is a popular category.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Most of that goes for me too! ;-D

    Except that I was a slash fan before I knew the term existed… from the day I discovered a somewhat-battered paperback titled ‘The Lord Won’t Mind’ by Gordon Merrick. I was turned off by Charlie’s treatment of women, but the Charlie/Peter sex scenes were HOT!

  • Astrin Ymris


  • Astrin Ymris

    Try Vonda N. McIntyre.

  • Astrin Ymris

    You know, I’ve come up with a theory about the women-hate-scifi meme. These guys are insecure about their masculinity (which equates to self-worth in their book), so they proclaim their Science Fiction/ Fantasy fandom to be a “guy thing”, which thus proves that they’re not gay and/or wimps. If they admit that SF&F is a gender-neutral phenomenon, then poof, there goes their proof of heterosexuality.

  • Nea

    Two words: Terry Pratchett.

  • ShinyZubat

    “Women have been brought more into the fantasy worlds with series like the Twilight saga…”

    *huff* When I was a little girl, I was reading The Odyssey and Harry Potter, thank you very much. I wanted to see people beat up ferocious monsters as much as anyone else. Not to mention how bad of a book Twilight is even if you *are* looking for romance. >_> If I had read Twilight as a kid, it probably would have turned me off to reading altogether.

  • Saraquill

    A Song of Ice and Fire, AKA the series HBO’s Game of Thrones is based off of.

  • Saraquill

    Ursula K. Le Guin, Anne Lecky and Octavia Butler are also good places to start.

  • BridgetD

    Uh huh.

    I’m a casual geek. Star Wars and Star Trek aren’t my favorites, but rather I’m a gamer, Otaku, and sci-fi/fantasy reader, writer, and visual artist (although I haven’t bucked up the courage to publish anything, unfortunately). Personally, I tend to prefer material with action before relationships, whether in a video game, movie, show, or book.

    I am admittedly also a bit of a prude (though not really for being on any religious or moral high ground), so I tend to avoid especially explicit material. That said, the sheer amount of female-authored pornographic fanfiction that I’ve stumbled into in my years should be a clue as to how unusual that is.

  • BridgetD

    Me too. I was a fantasy fan from a young age. My dad started reading “The Hobbit” to us as a bedtime story around age 5, and I started reading Harry Potter at around age 6 or 7. Now, I do like stories where romance is a part of a subplot (no Twilight romances), but I just prefer action and adventure as a whole.

    It’s shameful that he attributes Twilight of all things with women’s contribution to fantasy. Come on Larry, it doesn’t take that much effort to find much better examples of fantasy/sci-fi works written by women. That said, he probably knows of them, but is unwilling to admit it since that goes against his ideas of what women should be.

  • Mary

    Octavia Butler is amazing but BRUTAL. Like TRIGGER WARNING TRIGGER WARNING TRIGGER WARNING make sure you are not planning to operate heavy machinery after reading.

    My favorite female SF writers are Connie Willis and Lois McMaster Bujold, because I am a sucker for anyone who can mix humor and tragedy at that level. Jo Walton is slowly growing on me. “My Real Children” is about some very fundamental feminist issues, in a subtle way. (BGR would hate it. No “pew! pew!” at all.)

    But I think a lot of science fiction written by men is also feminist. Agree that Terry Pratchett, especially in the Witches books, does an excellent job of portraying female characters dealing with sexism, with being the default caregiver, with relationships and family dynamics and everything. Just excellent.

    John Scalzi gets it too, I think, though I admit I’ve read a lot more of his blog than of his fiction.

    Even some of the less-enlightened giants of the past made an effort… Asimov was terrified of women as a young man, and later kind of a serial sexual harrasser, but when I was a kid reading the Foundation novels, Arkady Darrell made an impression on me. As did Heinlein’s Podkayne.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Ah. Okay.

    George R.R. Martin should have come up with a much less clunky name for his series IMO.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Oh, and Tanya Huff! At least for fantasy; I’ve not read her SciFi yet.

  • Nightshade

    He wouldn’t know a healthy relationship if it bit him in the ass.

  • Antoinette Herrera

    I started out as a yaoi fan, and moved into slash as time went on.

    Just a thought: the Pendejo mentioned that he liked Lord of The Rings. Is he even aware of the fact that, for all the drama and magic, much of the story hinges on the relationships between the characters, especially Sam and Frodo? Can one man be that wilfully oblivious?

  • zizania

    I had to laugh when I found Lois McMaster Bujold’s “Sharing Knife” series in the Young Adult section of the library. It’s a great series (in my opinion), with good characters and scads of action, but it is also riddled with some very graphic sex scenes. Mind you, I don’t read a lot of young adult stuff; maybe it’s all full of sex these days.

  • Allison the Great

    I just started reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke. It’s intriguing, but I’m afraid Solomon’s not at that level yet. I’m guessing he reads at a sixth-grade reading level.

  • Nightshade

    Being generous with that assessment, are you? I don’t think he’s reached 6th grade maturity yet…give him another 10 or 20 years and he might get there.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Since Sam wound up marrying Rosie, that makes the relationship Officially Not Gay.

    Or, to put it another way– yes, BGR is that willfully oblivious! ;-D

  • Allison the Great

    Good point there, haha!

  • Antoinette Herrera

    Don’t forget the burgeoning category of BDSM slash, which covers a lot of ground. (And no, I don’t mean the fanon spawned by Twilight or Fifty Shades of Meh.)

    And then there’s mpreg: impossible, yes, but the best stories have good relationships going for them. I also like the way that they reimagine sexuality and gender roles. El Gran Pendejo would have a coronary if he ever came across any of these stories.

  • Astrin Ymris

    True! A/B/O fic would blow his tiny mind.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Semi-OT: Did the last chapter of ‘Podkayne of Mars’ make you go WTF? We’ve got this light-hearted teen detective/young romance novel with a mischievous little brother who get caught up with a gang of criminals, when all of a sudden, Holy Fuck, the book turns into ‘The Bad Seed’ on you, all because of employed mothers.

  • ConcepcionImmaculadaPantalones

    That’s what HBO is for! 😉

  • pinkie

    Er, doesn’t Michael Pearl think of himself as “Magic Mike?”

  • Astrin Ymris


  • Astrin Ymris

    I did some research later to see if I was the only one who had this reaction. Sadly, I discovered confirmation that Heinlein was a dudebro:


    I’m saddened by this, but I can’t say that I’m shocked. There are a lot of elements in his fic which bothered me even as teenager, but which I overlooked because of good storytelling and worldbuilding.

  • Mary

    Well, yes, as an adult Podkayne’s ending bothers me. As a kid, I just took it at face value, as a “series of mildly adventurous incidents, strung together.” in the words of Heinlein, quoted at your link. Pretty sure I had the version with the happier ending.

    Heinlein was definitely a dudebro, and not a feminist by any sane person’s standards. But Heinlein heroes are competent and fearless and clever and funny and some of them are women.

    He was a man of his era (think of Mad Men and the original James Bond). But he was a good writer, and many of his female characters come across as human beings, which is better than a lot of his contemporaries. So I say, not enlightened, but he made an effort…

  • Mary

    Would just like to come back on topic by noting that Podkayne herself is not particularly interested in “relationships” in the book, and has dreams of commanding a space ship and the capacity to do so (though Heinlein doesn’t think she can raise a family at the same time.) So Heinlein in 1963 was indeed much more progressive than BGR, who can’t imagine that women even have any interest in space ships and adventure.

    “Heinlein was trying desperately hard to imagine women’s liberation, he just had trouble imagining what it would be like.” http://www.tor.com/2011/05/27/pass-the-slide-rule-robert-heinleins-the-rolling-stones/

    That kind of applies to the whole genre. Yes, there’s rampant sexism in SF and always has been. But as a genre, it has pretty much “tried to imagine” a better future for women since the beginning. Star Trek is much the same, TOS is sexist by today’s standards, but it was really trying… http://wilsonquarterly.com/stories/star-treks-underappreciated-feminist-history/

    BGR and the Sad Puppies are wrong about SF. It was always for girls too.

  • gimpi1

    Yes. We can.

  • Allyson Smith

    Actually, he’s okay with his wife fantasizing about her neighbor’s husband because he’s so desperate to get laid that he’ll take it if his wife comes onto him because she’s horny from thinking about some other guy.

  • bekabot

    That might be true in reality, but it’s not going to turn out to be true in the abstract. Here’s what I mean: this guy is obviously writing a playbook for his (male) pals. The emphasis in it is not going to be a marital emphasis, it’s going to be an emphasis aimed at solidifying the male phalanx. Men like this (I have found) just about invariably play by the same rules they hewed to when they were fifteen or sixteen; IOW, they’re stuck at the time in their lives when their group of buddies was all-important to them and their membership in it was worth sacrificing anything for. The wife and kiddies were mere vagrant phantoms betokening a future which might never come; in the meantime and the present, nobody had their back but their brothers; consequently, it was to the brotherhood (not the family) that loyalty was due.

    Male life is inevitably influenced by such considerations and many men never get beyond them: even after they’ve acquired a wife and kids, the old patterns survive; not only that, but the old patterns are reinforced by centuries-to-millennia of positive PR. (The dude with and wife and a job and a family and car payments and the rest of it who nevertheless, in his heart, owes fealty to his friends or to some imaginary circle of male heroes is transcendent; he lives at a higher level than that consumed by mere dailyness; his wife, being female, is constitutionally bowed down to the earth, but as for him, he dances with the stars. Excelsior!! Etcetera.)

    What the male in-group patterns seek to reinforce is homosociality, not heterosexuality; such love as they produce is devoted, not to women or children or families, but to other men. What Larry Solomon is doing here is courting other men. Consequently it would not do for him to advise them (the other men) as to how to have more satisfactory relationships with women, even if, or especially if, the advice is good advice. That’s why even if it’s true that Larry Solomon, when he wants a pleasant night with the Missus, may very well hand her a DVD featuring Antonio Banderas while he himself has a cold shower and repairs to the bedroom and waits, he’s not going to tell other men to do the same thing, even-if-or-especially-if it works. Larry Solomon (in this case) doesn’t want the men for whom his advice is intended to concentrate on women; he wants them to care more and still more about what he, Larry Solomon, has to say. He wants to keep a male group going and he wants to climb to a position of power inside of it, and he’s not going to be able to do that if the men who constitute the group get too involved in their family lives. “Marriage Bells Are Breakin’ Up That Old Gang Of Mine.” Larry Solomon, no matter what he might claim superficially, is on the side of the gang, not the marriage bells, which is why I can predict with confidence the direction in which his argument(s) will head.

    (I’m so glad you asked.)

  • Astrin Ymris

    I think you have something there. It fits with their persistent “othering” of women, relegating them to the status of an amenity in their lives.