Duggar Cult Survivor Wants You to Meet the Powerful Women Who Make Other Women’s Lives a Living Hell

Duggar Cult Survivor Wants You to Meet the Powerful Women Who Make Other Women’s Lives a Living Hell February 25, 2016

Vyckieby NLQ’s Vyckie Garrison originally published in Raw Story

“ …Older women … admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.” Titus 2:3-5

Quiverfull is a growing fundamentalist movement within evangelical Christianity which shuns all forms of birth control and follows the “biblical” marriage model of male headship and female submission.

Think Duggar Family.

JimBob & Michelle Duggar with their 19 kids and growing extended family are the embodiment of today’s back-to-Patriarchy biblical family values movement: half a dozen kids or more, homeschool, home church, home birth, modest dress, heavy emphasis on homemaking for women and girls, rejection of higher education and all things modern including popular music, movies, television, and science … children are sheltered, no dating allowed, but instead, kids are pushed via parent-led courtship and betrothal toward early marriage and exuberant spawning.

Quiverfull is a contemporary manifestation of capital-p Patriarchy, but what if I told you that the majority of fundamentalist Christians pushing women to live Quiverfull lives of wifely submission and prolific childbearing are WOMEN?

Believe it … because it’s the truth!

Titus 2 Women

Admittedly, the public face of Quiverfull (also known as “Complementarity”) is overwhelmingly male: John Piper of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, John MacArthur of Grace to You ministries, Dennis Rainey, radio host of Family Life Today, mega-church Pastor David Platt, who is president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board and author of “Counter Culture” which calls on women to ditch feminism in favor of wifely submission, Voddie Baucham, author of “What He Must Be If He Wants To Marry My Daughter,” Scott Brown of the National Center for Family Integrated Churches (in which “family integrated” is code words for Quiverfull), “Kill The Gays” pastor, Kevin Swanson, the “pissing pastor,” Steve Anderson, and so so many more.

But honestly, no sensible woman would give these misogynistic jerks the time of day if it weren’t for the influence of dedicated Christian female mentors: the “older women” of Titus 2 whom the apostle Paul charged to “teach the younger women” to be obedient keepers at home.

In the past, influential women like Phyllis Schlafly, Beverly LaHaye, Elizabeth Elliott, Edith Schaeffer, and Mary Pride decried the rise of feminism and the devaluation of full-time motherhood and homemaking.

Today, one of the leading ministries influencing Christian women to adopt bronze-age roles of rabid fecundity and hyper-domesticity is Above Rubies, a magazine “to encourage women in their high calling as wives and mothers” which has a worldwide circulation of nearly 200,000. The magazine and correlating ministry are headed by a charismatic and commanding woman named Nancy Campbell.

“Mother, you are not wasting your life in your home. God says that children are at the very center of life in the kingdom of God. When you take time to hold a little child on your lap, you are wielding a mighty power. You are in the perfect will of God. You are not only doing something that is good. You are doing what is BEST. You are in the very center of God’s heart.” -NancyCampbell

Other prominent female leaders in the Christian Patriarchy movement include:

Nancy (Leigh) DeMoss Wolgemuth of Revive Our Hearts Radio  and the True Woman Movement, as well as author of the book, “Lies Women Believe” … “lies” such as these: “I have my rights,” “If I submit to my husband, I’ll be miserable,” and “It’s up to us to determine the size of our family.”

Debi Pearl, author of Created To Be His Help Meet, teaches wives to study their husbands’ idiosyncrasies in order to anticipate and meet the patriarchs’ every need. To the wife of an abusive husband, Debi has this advice:

God says that as a husband looks on and sees the way his wife responds to him, he will be won. He will hear and see her cheerful countenance. He will notice her willingness to help and forgive. He will see her giving up her rights and not taking offense when he knows he has wronged her. He will see she honors him, obeys him, treats him with respect, and serves him with a non-rebellious, non-resistant attitude. He will see her spirit is not raging outwardly in emotional fits or inwardly in silent brooding of hurt, but her spirit is quiet, restful, and peaceful. He will see she doesn’t puff up and talk incessantly in criticism of him—or others. He trusts her. He knows she is not going to discuss him with her pastor or friend. He sees she is wise with what little money he gives her. She is a remarkable woman, not because she is classy in the way she dresses or looks, but in the way she controls her spirit. She rejoices for an opportunity to bless him, and he knows her heart is good. He tries her; he deliberately tempts her into hurt or anger; he judges her unfairly; he demands things of her that he knows embarrasses her, yet she is in subjection to him in all things. And in the end, she wins him by her chaste conversation. It is a promise from God to you.

“Lady Lydia” Sherman and Jennie Chancey of Ladies Against Feminism — a website devoted to “promoting beautiful womanhood.”

Kelly Crawford, mother of ten, blogs at the popular large-family, Christian homeschooling website, Generation Cedar.

Teri Maxwell, homeschooling mother of eight, who blogs about loving your husband and homeschooling your many, many children at Titus 2.

Other popular pro-patriarchy ministries which are run by women include: Young Wife’s Guide, The Humbled Homemaker, Loving Life at Home, Far Above Rubies, Equipping Godly Women, Hearts At Home, Victorious Christian Women, Simply Living For Him, In the Nursery of the Nation, Raising Olives, Molding Into a Lady, Christian Feminine Homemaking, Beautiful Life of Joy, Ladies in Godly Holy Teaching, Life in a Shoe, Large Families On Purpose, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Club 31 Women, Love Your Husband, Planet Mommyhood, Time-Warp Wife, …

Jesus Christ, there’s no end to the madness … but I am becoming weary and disheartened finding all these websites run by women who encourage other women to cooperate in their own oppression. Ugh.

This story becomes even more incredible when you consider that ordinarily young women would pay little more than lip service to the ideals espoused by these Titus 2 women and their back-to-the-old-old-ways ministries … except when an older, seemingly wiser woman from their church, bible study group, or homeschool co-op personally recommends taking a closer look. That’s when they really pay attention and take the pro-patriarchy teachings to heart.

You might be wondering, but why would any woman promote this garbage to her friends, family, and neighbors?

Why, Why, Why?

From my own experience, as well as from listening to the stories of the women from No Longer Quivering who have left the lifestyle and are in the process of healing from seriously abusive relationships, here are the most common reasons why Christian women follow Paul’s Titus 2 directive to persuade younger women to devote their lives to the pursuit of biblical womanhood:

They’re married to losers

Every Christian woman knows the bible says that God hates divorce. While some churches allow a few exceptions to the “till death do we part” marriage vow – perhaps for reasons of abandonment or adultery – the primary message is that the union with her husband is a sacred representation of the relationship between Christ and the Church and she must therefore make every effort to save her marriage.

Take Anna Duggar for example. While it’s true that Josh cheated on Anna, she is being counseled to forgive him and to trust the Lord to restore their love and make something beautiful from her brokenness. Jesus said if you don’t forgive others for their sins, the Heavenly Father will not forgive yours. Sure Jesus allowed for divorce in the case of marital unfaithfulness, but he also noted that exception was granted “because of the hardness of their hearts.” In other words, in theory, Anna can divorce Josh – she has every right – BUT, in practicality, the only way she would/could is if she’s willing to admit to having a hard, unforgiving heart that’s too bitter to trust in God … and take her chances that Jesus will understand and not doom her to Hell for all eternity.

So what’s a good Christian woman to do if she’s married to deadbeat man?

She’ll have to dig in, try harder, pray more, trust more … be a better Christian. That’s where “biblical family values” come in: according to the Christian headship model, the more of herself she surrenders to God and submits to her husband, the greater the likeliness that the Holy Spirit will intervene and change her husband’s heart. (See Debi Pearl’s advice to an abused wife above.)

Christian women who are trapped in unhappy marriages will seek out biblical solutions, and when they discover the key: male headship and female submission, they tell their husbands in the hopes that he will do the godly-man thing: step up to the plate and lead the family in the paths of righteousness.

True story: I have never encountered a happy couple in an egalitarian partnership that, when presented with the bible verse, “The husband is the head of the wife …” actually took it seriously and changed their relationship patterns to fit the patriarchal blueprint for marriage. It is only when the marriage is already dysfunctional – when the husband and/or wife are controlling, manipulative, petty … abusive – these are the couples who latch on to Christian patriarchy and implement the strict gender roles in the extreme.

Tragically, the advice a troubled couple is most likely to receive in Christian marital counseling is the worst instruction ever and will only lend biblical credence to the abusive partner’s worst tendencies. The power imbalance which is inherent to the headship/submission model is guaranteed to compound every pre-existing problem and create new difficulties as the woman’s indiscriminate catering to her husband transforms him into a narcissist and herself into a living martyr.

The need to believe

The Quiverfull lifestyle is extraordinarily demanding and frankly, a truly stark and exhausting way to live. Everything must be done in the hardest, most tedious way possible.

A cursory perusal of Quiverfull blogs reveals the exponential demands of “biblical womanhood” including: perpetual pregnancy, child-bearing, adopting sibling groups, breastfeeding, baby wearing, chronic sleep deprivation, raising half a dozen or more closely-spaced, “stair-step” children, homeschooling – year round through chronic illness, child-training,character training, tomato-staking, discipling children, homemaking, penny-pinching, organic gardening, baking from scratch, once-a-month cooking, homesteading, sewing modest clothing, showing hospitality, operating a “cottage” business, staying trim, fit and healthy, and of course, serving as loving helpmeet … all without the modern woman’s “village” of helpers: daycare, preschool, play dates, public school, the boob-tube babysitter, pre-packaged and frozen foods, day spas, “me time,” credit cards, government assistance, “allopathic” medicine, Sunday School, youth group, therapists, Ritalin for the kids, or Xanax for mom.

These women pay a high personal price putting very lofty ideals into practice … and when you’re that invested in something so unconventional, you have to believe that you are not misguided, delusional, stupid, or just plain silly.

What better way to convince yourself than to convince others? So they order a bulk subscription to Above Rubies magazine and share the extra copies with their friends. They start a women’s group at church to study “Created To Be His Help Meet.” They quote bible verses to explain why they’re living the way they do in the hopes of making converts – misery loves company?

Money … of course!

Not every mega-family gets their own TV show to finance their procreative extravagance. The real reality is that many Quiverfull folk are barely getting by. The ultra-conservative lifestyle demands that Dad provides while Mom stays home with the kids. So these are one-income families supporting an impossible number of children: often a new baby every two years. Finances are further constrained when the family opts out of free public education in favor of homeschooling (revisionist history and creation science curriculum are not cheap!), refuses to accept any form of government assistance (because socialism) including Medicaid and food stamps, insists on debt-free living which means no home mortgages or credit cards to fall back on in emergencies, and some go so far as to forego home, health, and life insurance because it means trusting in a policy rather than in God. Add to that the biblical mandate to tithe the first 10% of their income to the church and to generously support various “pro-family” ministries with monthly donations.

(Side note: if you’re extra broke or just needing to put aside funds for a rainy day, check out all the money-saving, stretch-a-dollar tips on the above-linked Quiverfull blogs. These mega-moms are expert penny-pinchers and true Cheapskate Queens! Oh, need organization or time-management tips? … you will not believe how proficient these moms are at downsizing and delegating.)

One of Nancy Campbell’s daughters, Serene Allison, once wrote in Above Rubies magazine about a time when she had eight children aged 12 and under … due to poor plumbing, the family was without running water. Serene and her children were “forced to haul water from the stock tank (after breaking the ice), then fetch water down the hill and back up again in 5 gallon buckets, survive in a freezing cold house, then suffer as smoke billowed out of the wood stove, then wear goggles to keep smoke out of their eyes, then lay on the floor while the children opened doors and windows to air out the place. Finally, to escape the smoke, they went outside in freezing weather to run laps around the house to stay warm. And poor Serene cried.”

While truly godly women do not work outside their homes, many do help make ends meet by working from home in what is known as “cottage industries.” That’s exactly how Serene saved her family from dire poverty: she and her sister, Pearl wrote “a biblical approach to food freedom” and started the “Trim, Healthy Mama” movement to teach perpetually pregnant and nursing mothers how to slim down and keep the weight off once and for all. “Trim, Healthy Mama” is currently #2 in Amazon’s “health, fitness, and dieting” category.

Because God’s not happy enough for a woman to bear as many babies as her body is able to produce … the Quiverfull mom-of-many also must have vibrant health and a slim waistline.

Quiverfull is clearly a specialization of the “family values” niche market that has proven so profitable for the Christian publishing industry in general. So yeah – it is about MONEY and that’s a huge motivator. The idyllic big, happy, Christian family is so entrancing that TLC just announced they’re bringing back the lucrative Duggar Family for a “19 Kids and Counting” spin-off called, “Jill & Jessa: Counting On.”

And so it continues … a new generation of women teaching women to be submissive babymakers for Jesus.

Vyckie Garrison was once a minor celebrity in the Quiverfull Movement, made famous by TV’s Duggar family. As a devout, Bible-believing Christian and the mother of seven homeschooled children, Garrison spent 16 years, with her husband, publishing a newspaper for families on a similar path. Today, via a website called No Longer Quivering, she publishes resources for women leaving the movement

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NLQ Recommended Reading …

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce

13:24 – A Story of Faith and Obsession by M Dolon Hickmon

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • “The Quiverfull lifestyle is extraordinarily demanding and frankly, a truly stark and exhausting way to live.”

    Wasn’t Andrea Yates a Quiverfull mom?

  • Allison the Great

    What really gets me is how obsessed those cultural enforcers are with “admonishing” others for things that are not their business (not having enough kids, not staying home, not cooking from scratch). They’re so petty and nosy.

  • SAO

    The only way a woman with any drive gets any attention is by selling the lifestyle. If they’re successful, they make more money with less work than quilting or selling jam.

  • Jennny

    Just had a hospital appointment and watching dozens of staff scurrying around as they do in a busy hospital. Most were female, thank goodness they were doing those jobs, if they all suddenly decided to stay at home and become drudges/slaves, hospitals – and much else that is needful in society would close down. Guess the QF-ers would approve, after all prayer is the best way to cure cancer et al…..

  • Lana

    Most of the QF families that we knew had no problem with Medicaid. It use to make my mom mad. (but then, she just didn’t take us to the doctor)

  • Astrin Ymris

    Yes– though that fact is being whitewashed out of the news coverage.

    Rusty Yates should have faced legal charges for having ignored her psychologist’s instructions that Andrea 1) shouldn’t get pregnant again, and 2) should never be left alone with the kids. If a wife had left her mentally-ill husband alone with their children under those conditions, you can be damn sure that she would have been charged to the full extent of the law.

  • Mirlo

    Quiverful Lite allows women to work in service jobs – nursing, teaching – before marriage. Once babies come though, you’d better burn that degree.

  • Mirlo

    Here’s the reality of how it plays out:
    A woman I knew married young, without an education. She quickly popped out seven children while living in an unfinished home her uneducated husband was remodeling. It never got completed. He got cancer and without health insurance, burned through all their assets before he died. She was left without life insurance, without skills, and with seven young children. Soon mental illness struck, she attempted suicide, and the church divvied up the kids among several homes. The unofficial foster homes eventually got tired of raising other people’s kids and returned them. After being reported for neglect, the mom had all seven removed by CPS. They cycled in and out of foster care throughout their childhoods. Today at least one member of that family is in our jail each month. Their children fill our foster homes. I can’t help but think that if that widow had been encouraged to have a career to fall back on, medical and life insurance for her husband, and public education, the story would’ve ended differently.

  • Anonyme

    I need a Tylenol and kittens to numb my mind to the extraordinary awfulness of this “lifestyle”.

    Yet it’s gays who are destroying the “sanctity of marriage”. Yup. O_o

  • Anonyme

    Ugh. Even his name makes me want to chew nails. I was in Texas at the time the story broke and every time it was mentioned that Rusty forced Andrea off of antidepressants, forced her into pregnancy, had her stay home alone with the children despite professional advice…I almost wanted some “Texas justice” to be done. I’m normally against the death penalty because it doesn’t affect crime, but at the same time, thinking that horrible people like him can get of scot-free makes my blood curdle.

  • Astrin Ymris

    I’d be satisfied with his getting a nice, hefty jail sentence, rather than having interviewers pet him for graciously “forgiving” his ex-wife, who is still mired in a mental institution.

  • cmfe

    We women are our own worst enemy. It comes from a toxic mix of denial, fear and hope.

  • Jennny

    I was examined by a male doctor but asked beforehand if I would prefer a female…which I didn’t. In QF fantasy-la-la-land, since all females should be married very young, there would be no female doctors for those who, with genuine reason, need a woman doctor and professionals of every kind would disappear long before they could gain the years of experience and maturity that makes them excellent at their jobs. No thanks QF.

  • brbr2424

    I think Andrea controlled the family’s decent into fundamentalism by falling in love with those loons and their bus ministry. My sense is that women drag their husbands into the Quiverful lifestyle not the other way around.

    Rusty is remarried and has a five year old son who seems to be an only child.

  • brbr2424

    I admire the compassion he has for his ex-wife. I mentioned this case to my husband when this was going down. My now ex-husband said he would want me to get the death penalty. It was very chilling and one of the million or so red flags I had not seen indicating that I was married to an a-hole.

  • Friend

    I watched the first part of the video and learned something super super crucial: mothers only come in one color!

    Please forgive the crassness of the above. My blood is boiling.

  • I prolly shouldn’t have read the article. Why, why, why is right. And all the reasons listed for why they stay makes sense when convinced that Jesus is the ONLY way and the bible is God’s final Word. It says plain and clear: pipe down and obey, so what’s a gal to do in the face of the almighty? It’s a conundrum in the worst way. I’m convinced, religion certainly poisons everything.

  • Nea

    Yeah, EX wife. Funny how God never forgives divorce when she wanted one, but didn’t mind at all when he was inconveniently without a sex partner.

  • Nea

    Outside the clinic, protesters scream that I aborted the child that God sent to cure cancer. I point out that they told the kid that could cure cancer to forgo an education and have lots of kids instead of curing cancer. Nobody’s answered that one yet.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Even if true, that doesn’t change the fact that Rusty was the one who wanted Andrea to have another child despite being warned by a psychologist that she shouldn’t get pregnant again. Still less does it excuse him from having left Andrea alone with the kids, another thing he was warned against.

  • Astrin Ymris

    The fact that your ex was an a-hole doesn’t mean that Rusty is therefore an admirable human being.

  • Royce Harlow

    I honestly don’t think anything you do or say is going to change her mind.

  • *NOW* he’s got compassion for her. Where was his compassion for her when she was mentally ill, denied care, and forced to stay home 24/7 with all those little kids? Not to mention, she thought she was a terrible mother. Where did that idea come from?

  • Nightshade

    I was going to say ‘Compassion? What kind of compassion put her in that situation when they had been warned very clearly NOT to do what he went ahead and did ?’ Then I read the rest of what you said. I can’t agree that Mr. Yates deserves credit for ‘compassion,’ but I can see where you’re coming from, and comparatively speaking, yes, his reaction was closer to compassionate than your ex’s would have been. I’m glad for your sake that he’s your EX-husband, not current!

  • SAO

    Maybe Rusty learned something from the deaths of his family. He’d have to be an idiot not to.

  • ConcepcionImmaculadaPantalones

    Kittens (and a bonus bunch of puppies) I can give you:

  • ConcepcionImmaculadaPantalones

    Hope is a good thing – the problem is when someone cannot or will not (or isn’t allowed to) accept that there are some times and some situations without hope. One cannot fix or change someone else, and hoping differently can and has resulted in far too many deaths. There is never a “good enough”, “doing enough”, “being enough” that will magically transform an abusive person who faces no consequences, never hears “no” or that what they’re doing is wrong, and doesn’t feel like changing or just stopping being an abusive jerk. Not being an abusive jerk takes a lot of hard work to undo, especially when you think about how easy it is to become one; they see it modeled as kids by the adults in their life, and every little step along the way is building them into a monster. When their experience in their community and society as a whole is thoroughly privileged because white and penis – true consequences are often the only thing jarring enough to make them think about changing. But if they return to the self-sacrificing and willing martyr and many mouths to feed (if they don’t set about getting revenge for the consequences to begin with, because how dare they need things that cost money and to not be abused!) stress and imperfect humans will struggle to continue to do the work of being better.

    And privilege isn’t something that those who are privileged tend to notice – it’s the things they never have to face, never experience, and never worry about having happen, not just the things that are given or granted simply for being.

  • ConcepcionImmaculadaPantalones

    Or find a “totally legitimate and accredited” program that can be done from home, to obtain by mail a certification of completion in an unregulated (or fabricated) vocation. 😛

  • guest

    Oh yes, all that admonishing is the worst. I threw my copies of “The Way Home” and “All The Way home” at a wall in utter frustration and more than once have wanted to throw something at the computer screen. I don’t read those blogs any more.

  • guest

    The notion that she was a terrible mother came from some lunatic preacher’s wife she used to correspond with.

  • guest

    Rusty could have told her that as “head of the family” he ordered her to send the kids to school, get proper treatment and let him organize proper care for her. But he didn’t.
    He knew she was mentally ill. He knew her ideas should be taken with a large pinch of salt. He knew she needed care. He neglected her and his children. Period.

  • guest

    Exactly!: “And privilege isn’t something that those who are privileged tend to
    notice – it’s the things they never have to face, never experience, and
    never worry about having happen, not just the things that are given or
    granted simply for being.”

  • guest

    Excellent post, Vicky.
    Once again you point out (perhaps unwittingly) how good QF are at taking something good -like stretching one’s budget, operating a business from home, home education, adoption, cooking from scratch or gardening- and turning it sour. The problems lie in their core teachings.

    – a: marriage is a picture of God and his Church. I think this is taking Paul’s analogy a lot further than he ever intended it to go.
    – b: the verse from the book of psalms is a command for us all to have as many children as nature allows.
    – c: husband-head of wife = husband -commander/leader/priest/”head honcho” of the family. Nope. I think head has a completely different meaning here.

    My problem is not with the peripheral lifestyle. Sure, if you like, go back to living a more basic life, stay at home with the kids while they are little (which I think is good and should be encouraged and supported), grow your own vegetables, start a cottage business, even homeschool, if that’s what you think is best for YOU and YOUR family. God never said you had to have as many children as nature allows. God never said you should not pursue a career outside of the home. God never said you must homeschool your kids or grow your own vegetables or adopt a whole bunch of children when you are already struggling with your own.
    God has a lot to say, but all the above are not commandments, so don’t beat yourself over the head if you can’t stand the idea of homeschooling your kids and would rather be a good teacher at a local school instead!
    I wonder how many QF moms have melted in a puddle of self-doubt and despair when their gardens failed to provide a bountiful harvest or their cottage businesses didn’t thrive. Was God not blessing them? What were they doing wrong?

    I read a lot of QF material, both online and some books, and all it ever did was create tremendous anxiety.

  • guest

    Quiverfull in Germany looks a bit different. We have several quiverfull neighbors and they live quite nicely in beautiful houses. Germany gives families cash every month for having children. The sum increases with every child, so a couple will get €190 for each the first and second child, €196 for the third and €221 for each subsequent child. A family of 12 (10 children) would get the whooping sum of €2213 sent to their account every single month. It’s not uncommon for the mother’s salary (Kindergeld is usually paid out to the mother) to be higher than the father’s because a lot of these men have lower paying jobs.

    The QF families I know in Germany all send their children to school (it’s mandatory), most live in nice houses and drive good cars. The children are well dressed and fed, and are encouraged to pursue a career and get as much education as possible. I’ve seen more than one mother go back to work, and several mothers who are done having children hold down jobs too. Perhaps this emphasis on getting a good education has something to do with the current generation of parents not having had access to higher education due to their circumstances as a persecuted minority in Russia. (Russlanddeutsche or Deutsch-Russen).
    They are very traditional and patriarchal, the man being the one who has the final word at home and in the church, and women wear head coverings in church. They don’t seem keen to propagate their ideas either, generally keeping to themselves and only sharing if asked.

  • Victoria

    Shortly after college, I left the Quiverful Lite church I grew up in. I scandalized many of the male members of the church by getting a degree in politics and government, with the intent of pursuing a Masters in Public Administration (which I am currently doing) and law school. I remember one of the teachers there chastising me publicly, saying I should teach or do nursing if I wanted to “be godly” before I had babies, like all of the other church girls were doing at the local Baptist University (I somehow convinced my parents to let me go to a state school). You should have seen the look on his face when I said I didn’t want kids either. Standing up to him like that in front of my peers was one of the most pivotal moments in my life thus far.

  • texassa

    Not to mention, if heaven is so great, why don’t these people want to just get cancer, die, and get up there already? Doesn’t make sense to me.

  • texassa

    Kudos to you. Sounds sort of like (though not really like it at all) when my old-school ballet teacher told me the only sports young ladies should play are tennis and golf. I was like, yup, I am playing soccer and basketball, thanks.

  • Friend

    If they accept government money and education, they aren’t as “pure” and “godly” as American Quiverfull families. Their children will be less indoctrinated and more capable of functioning in society. So it’s maybe only half as oppressive, depending on the actions of the almighty husband.

  • Abigail Smith

    Same here! I never read the second one, thank God. But I threw away every single one of Nancy Campbell’s books and her daughters’ Trim Healthy Mama crap…it’s all garbage, and women are eating it up (like I once did) because they are so afraid that Jesus won’t love them if they don’t listen to these idiots….I came from an abusive, unhealthy home…I bet a large percentage of these women did too. I know I wouldn’t have been swayed if I had not been used to brainwashing…..

  • guest

    If you want a diet book, buy one from a nutritionist or go online and do a google. Better yet, talk with your doctor and have him refer you to a good nutritionist that will take the time to sit down with you and make a personalized plan that fits your lifestyle and budget.
    I remember reading an article on eating disorders by Martha Peace (I think it was her). She said they were simply sins that had to be overcome with much prayer and self-denial. Sick.

  • guest

    That “Kindergeld” may come in handy if men get abusive with their wives. It’s definitely something to fall back on if things get ugly.
    I guess some families are more and some are less oppressive. My 10-year-old son was once asked if his mother (I) is a Christian because I wear pants quite happily and pentecostal Russian-German women don’t. I know that one church doesn’t allow dating and they require that girls let their hair grow long and wear a head covering to church from the age of 16.
    But those same girls are studying, getting degrees, doing vocational training and holding down jobs, so they aren’t as vulnerable as US Quiverfull little homemakers.

  • Abigail Smith

    I know, right???? Actually once I learned to deal with my REASONS for overeating years ago (to stuff my emotions from an abusive childhood), and added in exercise, I lost the weight and kept it off for over 25 years. After I hit 40 and it got harder to keep the weight off, I looked into THM….it was awful…they are putting so many women in bondage to food, and setting themselves up as “goddesses”…I went off sugar and gluten and I lost the weight.
    Someone repeatedly tried to get me to read Martha Peace’s book “The Excellent Wife” and all my red flag alerts went up. I’m so glad I never did…they blame everything on “sin”….depression, anxiety, eating disorders…except of course the biggie of “self-serving promotion” and pride…those seem to be fine because they help them to sell their trash books

  • Edie Moore McGee

    I also wonder what would become of our public education system, especially in grades K thru 8, if all the women decided to stay home.

  • Edie Moore McGee

    When I graduated from college, I got a fellowship to earn a masters degree at Vanderbilt. My dad was so proud of me and made the mistake of bragging about it to Mom and Dad’s charismatic Bible study/prayer group. He was told that it wasn’t God’s will for me to earn a masters degree. This worried my mom, our family enforcer. Dad laughed (behind Mrs. Bible Teacher’s Wife’s back, of course).

  • Friend

    I can’t get past the irony that, under different circumstances, they would be vilified as “welfare queens.”

  • Victoria

    Good for you for doing your thing!

  • Victoria

    I’m glad your Dad has your back. My mom is actually the family enforcer too, and has somewhat discouraged me from pursuing a graduate education, while my dad seems pretty proud.

  • guest

    Kindergeld is not welfare. Every family is entitled to it, as far as I know. I guess people who earn well above the average may not be entitled, but they are the minority.

  • Friend

    Understood. I was contrasting social attitudes between Germany and the US.

  • Astrin Ymris

    It’s CPM doctrine that public education is eeeevil, so if anything, they’d be for it.

  • B.E. Miller

    Seconding Friend’s comment about contrasting social attitudes between the US and Germany.

    Here, some ‘Muricans would grumble about giving money to folks for having children. Families that accept money for child rearing would be vilified as lazy, and…. darn, I’m trying to think…

    It’s like they’d be labeled as a drain on society, or danger to society, and worth less because they’re accepting this kindergild stuff.

    Someone in one of my art things once had a theory about this. See, in Europe there were those two huge wars, and that Europe (like France and Germany) lost so much of their population that they see such a thing as Kindergeld as a good thing. She pointed about that it’s like two whole generations died, and she had the number of what the populations of Germany and France were before the wars. (It was a pretty shocking amount, comparing now, to pre WWI numbers.)

    While the US wasn’t damaged as much as Europe, so we tend to see children as a drain, rather than ‘ghosts’ of missing people who would be there if not for 10 billion getting wiped out due to two world wars.

    Not sure I’m making sense here.

  • guest

    I’m assuming that child benefit, as it’s known in the UK, is paid out to help parents better afford to have and raise children because children are the future workers and taxpayers . If I understood that right, then children are seen as valuable and worth investing in for our own sakes.
    I don’t understand how anyone can see children as a drain and not worth investing in. (And this is not to say that I think everyone should breed, or that parents should throw all caution to the wind when it comes to having children. It takes more than money to raise children.)

  • B.E. Miller

    In the US, yes, because you have some politicians who paint the image of ‘black ghetto families’ taking money from good Christian Muricans (who are white, of course.)

    Never mind, like you mentioned, that white farmers and ranchers get subsidies from the government. Like Clive Bundy… it’s only about a couple bucks a head per month to graze cattle on public land, whereas if he attempted to graze cattle on private land, he would be looking at a bill of 20 bucks per head monthly.

    Not that I mind my tax dollars helping out farmers and ranchers, it’s what helps keeps food costs down.

    But no, he’s entitled to that government money, whereas the poor family is a drain on society.