by Mel cross posted from her blog When Cows and Kids Collide
All quotations from the book will be in blue text
Let’s start with a quick review of the themes of Chapter 6 +7 before looking at the quotes from the “guys”.
Chapter 6: Don’t be a whore like the woman in Proverbs 7. Remember, you can totally tell people from what they look like on the outside.
Chapter 7: Guard your heart – but don’t make guys feel bad.
From Chas, networking guru:
- Holy mixed metaphors Batman! Let’s see if I can unpack the basics.
- I agree that once someone has made it clear that they are NOT interested in you, the best, neatest and most sensible option is to accept and respect the other person’s feelings about you.
- I disagree that Chas is helping his point by dragging a bunch of side issues in.
- Wishing and hoping for a person to fall in love with you is counterproductive certainly, but not idolatry. The Botkin Buddies are more willing to pull the idolatry card than the Bible is.
- Yes, being obsessed with another person is a good way to make them hate you. Asking the person who has just been disappointed to determine if the guy is interested in one of her friends….that’s tacky.
- Getting in the way of a budding relationship is tacky as well.
- Writing up this section has already made me feel – AGAIN – that the guys who are supposed to be future spiritual leaders are wimps. Chas’ overall theme is “If a girl I like doesn’t like me, she must be being interfered with by a meddling, scorned girl” instead of “You win some; you lose some.”
From David, defense analyst:
- I agree that no one wants people to misread simple, day-to-day actions.
- The problem, though, is far larger than unmarried girls not controlling their hearts. The amount of angst, hand-wringing, and emotional energy expended in guy-girl relationships in CP/QF cliques is absurd and much higher than the same amount given by teenagers outside of the movement. I think the problem lies in trying to reconcile a parent-led courtship with romantic dreams and desires.
- Parent-led courtships are much closer to an arranged marriage than the individual choice marriage of modern Western civilization. For arranged marriages to work, the parents involved must have a strong understanding of the characteristics that actually lead to strong relationships like activity level, intelligence level, sense of humor, similar long-term goals, comparable experiences in their family of origin, level of religious practice and similar social class. In these societies, love between spouses grows over time; people are not expected to be passionately in love at the wedding. If everyone is on-board, an arranged marriage (or parent-led courtship) has some risks, but so do individual choice marriages.
- CP/QF runs into problems because a) parents who married through individual choice marriages are completely inexperienced in arranging someone else’s marriage and b) the courtship model expects romantic love to rapidly follow an arranged courtship.
From Paul, missionary:
- The first list is a hoot! The only vice that the Botkin family cares about is lust. The entire book reeks of pride on the part of the authors.
- Hell, this entire paragraph reeks of pride. Notice that Paul believes that glances and the posture of a girl are specifically designed to tempt him. That’s a whole level of self-centered crazy.
- Remember that Proverbs is about a woman who is going to commit adultery. There’s a huge difference between how a teenage girl “flatters” a guy and having sex outside of marriage.
- Paul can’t seem to figure out why girls would think that guys prefer outgoing girls to quiet girls who are chasing God. Yet, according to Paul himself:
- Girls who dress attractively and talk on light subjects –> approach guys –> flirt –> get the attention and interaction of the guys.
- Girls who are “pursuing God” —> are valued by guys –> get invisible attention and no interaction with guys.
- In other words, the guys reward the behavior that Paul swears guys don’t like. I think Paul should do more missionary work with young men before complaining about young women.
From Rex, a reformer:
- The Botkin Sisters don’t know any real men. They know plenty of hyper-sexualized teenaged boys but no real men.
- Rex never seems to realize that if he’s offended or -gasp!- aroused by someone’s dress, he is free to leave. Literally. Rex could excuse himself from the conversation and go away. I know that that requires actual sacrifice on Rex’s part – but reformers need to be willing to sacrifice for the greater good.
- Likewise, Rex seems oblivious to the fact that women may WANT to be attractive to men. After all, a temptress will scare Rex into lust-filled silence saving the girl hours of listening to childish pontificating.
From Timothy, shepherd:
- I don’t think that girls are any better off at starting conversations about discipling siblings than guys are. Equally important: shouldn’t anyone who is old enough to read this book be old enough to “disciple” outside of their home?
- At least Timmy was willing to admit that being attracted to someone is more fun than talking about fighting the Lord’s battles.
Total Quote Count by psuedonym:
Chas – 1
David – 1
Jack – 2
James – 3
Edward – 1
Paul – 5
Philip – 1
Rex – 1
Robert – 3
Timothy – 3
Next Post: Chapter 8 – All about Parents!
Mel is a science teacher who works with at-risk teens and lives on a dairy farm with her husband. She blogs at When Cows and Kids Collide She is also an very valuable source of scientific information for us here at NLQ. Mel is also blessed with the ability to look at the issues of Quiverfull with a rational mind and break them down to their most basic of elements.
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