Callous priest used teen’s funeral to preach against suicide

Callous priest used teen’s funeral to preach against suicide December 15, 2018

A Michigan couple have called for the removal of a Catholic priest who used their son’s funeral to preach against suicide.

Father Don LaCuesta

Instead of delivering the homily the Hullibarger family expected from Fr Don LaCuesta for their son Maison, 18, the priest used to funeral to tell mourners that the youth may have ruined his chances of getting to heaven by ending his own life on December 4.

Jeff Hullibarger and his wife, Linda Hullibarger, who live in Temperance, Michigan, said they had met with LaCuesta well before the funeral, going over in detail what they expected in the homily to be delivered at Our Lady of Mount Carmel Catholic Church in Temperance, even watching the priest take notes in their meeting.

Maison’s mother, Linda. said:

We wanted him to celebrate how Maison lived, not how he died.

Instead, when LaCuesta gave his homily to hundreds of mourners and family members, he banged on about the “sin” of suicide while “almost smirking.”

The teen’s dad, Jeff, said:

We couldn’t believe what he was saying. He was up there condemning our son, pretty much calling him a sinner. He wondered if he had repented enough to make it to heaven. He said ‘suicide’ upwards of six times.

There were actually a couple of younger boys who were Maison’s age who left the church sobbing.

Maison Hullibarger. Photo supplied by his family.

The bereaved father at one point walked to the pulpit and asked the priest to “please stop” but LaCuesta continued with statements denouncing the way their son’s life ended.

The Archdiocese of Detroit later said in a statement:

We share the family’s grief at such a profound loss. Our hope is always to bring comfort into situations of great pain, through funeral services centered on the love and healing power of Christ.

Unfortunately, that did not happen in this case. We understand that an unbearable situation was made even more difficult, and we are sorry.

After some reflection, the presider agrees that the family was not served as they should have been served. For the foreseeable future, he will not be preaching at funerals and he will have his other homilies reviewed by a priest mentor.

In addition, he has agreed to pursue the assistance he needs in order to become a more effective minister in these difficult situations.

We have been in contact with the family since learning of this situation, and we will continue to offer our support going forward.

The funeral was further marred by appearance of of their late son’s high school football coach, Jeffrey Wood, who’d bullied Maison him and their other sons. Although Maison’s mother said she requested through a friend that Wood should steer clear of the funeral, the showed up anyway, then was asked to leave.

Jeff Hullibarger said:

We’ve had four boys who played for him. He’s been bullying kids for many years.

The teen mum added:

We knew Maison would not want him at his funeral. He did not treat Maison kindly. So it was our wish that he would not be there.

Wood then posted a snarky message about his removal from the service, which in turn led to the termination of his coaching duties.

Bedford Schools Superintendent Carl Shultz said in a statement that the the coach:

Is no longer affiliated in any way with the Bedford football program.

Wood had also been teaching history in the district, and it was unclear whether he would continue.

The superintendent’s statement also read:

The district holds all of its staff to the highest standards of professionalism (but) recently received allegations that those standards may not have been met by the coach. Therefore, we are in the process of thoroughly investigating those allegations.

The district will take appropriate, firm, corrective action if the allegations are substantiated. To protect the rights of all involved parties, I cannot offer further comment regarding ongoing personnel matters.

The Hullibargers said they appreciate the sympathy they’ve had from numerous people in Monroe County after losing their son, who was a freshman at the University of Toledo and studying criminal justice. They said they especially appreciated the contributions that donors made to a GoFundMe site that will defray their funeral expenses.

Without the assistance, “this would’ve been financially devastating for us,” Jeff Hullibarger said. As of this morning (Saturday) the site had raised $17,670 in pledges.

The couple said they’ve always been steadfast Catholics — Maison’s middle name Donnelly was the last name of a kindly priest who married them — but they’ve pledged not to return to the church where their son’s funeral took place.

“Absolutely not,” Jeff Hullibarger exclaimed. To which Linda Hullibarger added: “No, no, no!”

The Archdiocese did not make LaCuesta available for comment. On the church’s website (currently offline), a page devoted to “Father Don LaCuesta” says he grew up in the Philippines, attended Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit and was ordained in 2006, then lived for a time in a Catholic order’s house in Grosse Pointe before becoming a church pastor.

LaCuesta’s goal, the priest states online, is:

To be part of the revival of Catholic culture.

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  • epeeist

    I can relate to this. A story I have told a number of times before, my father was a Marxist. When he died we held a Catholic funeral for him because his mother, a staunch Catholic, was still alive. The priest derided my father’s politics and attitude to religion much to the dismay of my grandmother. It was all I could do to avoid decking him at the end of the service. Needless to say he was not invited to the wake.

    To be part of the revival of Catholic culture.

    Is that a thing?

  • Broga

    My brother wanted to marry a Roman Catholic girl. The whole family liked her and they seemed the happiest of couples. I was an atheist, my brother a nominal Presbyterian i.e. he never went to church and in the many family gatherings religion was not discussed. However, the girl’s father was a rabid catholic and insisted she take “instruction” from the priest – celibate, unmarried and with no family. The priest ordered that she could not be married unless my brother converted to Roman Catholicism; he promised that all children would be brought up as RCs and, as he was still being “instructed” in the faith they must enter the church by the back door.

    He refused to convert, his fiancée refused to go against the priest, her father was determined that she must obey the priest. They broke up and neither made a happy marriage. Decades later my brother remained bitter about the life he had been denied. I was in the army at the time and knew nothing of this till much later and so had no part in it.

    I was married in a Register Office and my wife was as much an atheist as I am. So are our children and I am confident so will our grandchildren. We have never tried to persuade them but we have discussed whatever subjects were raised and answered their questions. They didn’t have to try very hard to see the nonsense underlying Roman Catholic superstition. The claim that RCs ate the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus at Mass came in for much curiosity e.g. “But did it taste like meat and taste like wine.?” I admitted I had never tried it but I very much doubted that it did.

    Perhaps Eskimo Man, could offer some enlightenment on this?

  • Snagglefritz Sagenschnitter

    What were the family thinking? I’m not a Catholic but even so, I am well aware that Catholics pour scorn on people who commit the ‘mortal sin’ of suicide.

  • Beentheredonethat

    Very sad about what you and your brother experienced. But the fact is RC Church does not coerce anyone into becoming a Catholic. (Yes, there were many rogue priests who had done it which is very wrong and despicable . ) It would be going against free will which the Church takes very seriously. That said the crap that practicing Catholics like myself or ex-Catholics are experiencing or experienced and unfortunately you too regarding the bishops and priests, is the result of many years that seminaries were not doing proper due diligence on admitting men to study for the priesthood and then not training them properly.

    Regarding your view of Transubstantiation, it is a belief that confounds many (including you and many “Catholics”) since the Roman Empire. Unfortunately a misunderstanding of it has led to many Catholics being persecuted and continues to this day.

    Peace to you.

  • abb3w

    “Father, if you do not sit down and be silent immediately, your bishop will need to determine whether you should be buried as a martyr or as a suicide.”

  • Mike De Fleuriot

    I think every atheist should hear a catholic priest’s sermon for a wedding, funeral and a general sunday sermon, at least once in their life. These people are really out of touch with the rest of the populace.

  • DoctorDJ
  • Karen the rock whisperer

    My mother was a devout Catholic, so we arranged to have her favorite priest preside at her (funeral home) service. He gave no real eulogy, just a general sermon about everlasting life in Jesus. He didn’t know her and simply wasn’t interested in her as a person at all. He never even bothered to offer personal condolences to my father. By the end I wanted to punch him.

    A few years later at my father’s funeral, in the spirit of “if you want it done right, do it yourself”, I gave the eulogy. I wish I could hop in a time machine, go back, and do the same for my mother. Then, on my way back to the time machine, I would punch that priest.

  • ldw

    There is nothing confusing about transubstanatiation: it’s a completely bogus idea woven to complete a foolish routine.

  • Broga

    Thank you for your comments. The events I describe were in the 1960s. Many years before that my uncle, long dead, was a “friend” of the local priest. The friendship never extended beyond heavy drinking sessions together – what was known as a half and a half – a whisky and beer which scandalised the rather remote Scots community. The scandal was not because of the drinking of industrial quantities of alcohol as that was common but because in a strict and bigoted Presbyterian community my uncle was drinking with a “Pape.”
    I was very young at the time. The priest was regarded by us as a terrifying figure with strange, never explained but mystical powers.

  • PJHH

    Catholic priest does what he’s supposed to do, gets lambasted for doing so.

    Given the seriousness of the sin that Catholics attribute to suicide, I’m not sure what exactly the family were expecting. It’s not that long ago that they refused full funerals to suicides…

    https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Church-ends-ban-on-full-Christian-funerals-for-suicides
    https://classroom.synonym.com/funerals-due-to-suicide-the-roman-catholic-church-12085229.html

  • Broga

    My mother had a secular funeral. We chose her favourite music, I managed, with difficulty, to give the opening comments and then close relatives spoke for a few minutes each. Every one had a personal anecdote or loving memory. When I knew she was dying I wondered whether I had persuaded her into atheism and said, if she wished, I could arrange for a Presbyterian Minister. Her reply, “If you do, I will come back and haunt you.”

  • Michael Neville

    The family was expecting that the priest give a homily in accordance to their stated desires. But since we all know the RCC is a thoroughly anti-humanistic organization, interested only in power, money and small children to rape, you’re right in thinking that the family was foolish to believe the priest would accede to their wants.

  • TheBookOfDavid

    That ashen moment of dread when you realize that you had lured your family into an abusive death cult.

  • larry parker

    Perhaps you could clear up the misunderstanding about transubstantiation. Also, some references to the ongoing persecution would be nice.

  • ldw

    Perhaps the family was expecting that a man of the cloth would be sympathetic, understanding, and would offer words of comfort, as priests/ministers are supposed to do in times of mourning. That is a foolish expectation, I agree, but defending this clown’s actions, as you do, is reprehensible.

  • PJHH

    > as priests/ministers are supposed to do in times of mourning

    Wrong religion (if, indeed there’s a ‘right’ one,) if that’s what you’re after for a suicide.

    Besides, I’m not defending his actions in particular, I’m pondering as to the expectations of the family in a religion where the cause of death of the deceased is verboten in the particular religion concerned, and (as I’ve pointed out) until recently such funerals weren’t even entertained.

  • Johnny Virgil

    I wonder if the kid killed himself because he was being molested by said priest. It’s what catholics do.

  • Johnny Virgil

    The family is also, and surprisingly still, Catholic. Critical thinking is not one of their strong suits.

  • Scottlowther

    Would you expect a neutral funeral for a Nazi? If not, then you should expect the same foe someone who ascribes to the equally vile and murderous ideology of Marxism.

  • Spirit Plumber

    fuck you.

  • Priya Lynn

    “Would you expect a neutral funeral for a Nazi?”.

    You mean like the neutral, excuse me I mean cooperative stance, the Catholic church took towards Nazis during WWII?

    There were many glowing eulogies given by Catholic priests for Nazis during WWII.

  • Beentheredonethat

    The events I described started during the Depression. Many of those priests who abused children were abused themselves, some even by priests.

  • Michael

    Fuck you.

  • Beentheredonethat

    Transubstantiation is like an inverse of transformation. An excellent example of transformation is water. It can be a liquid transformed into a gas or solid. Yet we know it is water no matter what physical state it is in. Its essence is the same no matter what physical state it is in. Unleavened bread & wine, during the Consecration of the Mass, is changed into the body & blood & soul & divinity of Christ. We call that the Eucharist. The physical properties will always be that of bread and wine but its essence changed into the entire person (human & divine) of Christ. We call this process, transubstantiation. BTW there have been Eucharistic miracles throughout the centuries, unexplained & scientifically studied Eucharist host taken on human blood &/or flesh. Somewhat gory but true. http://dowym.com/voices/5-incredible-eucharistic-miracles-from-the-last-25-years/.

    When someone accuses Catholics of being cannibals or mocks us because of this belief we call it persecution. Hopefully in the future we will not have to die for this belief.

    Thank you for your curiosity.

  • Jim Jones

    > LaCuesta’s goal, the priest states online, is: To be part of the revival of Catholic culture.

    Mission accomplished. He’s revived the culture of being greedy, bigoted assholes.

  • Jim Jones

    I’d take an air horn with me if I suspected this might happen.

  • Jim Jones

    1 Corinthians 11:23-26 is the basis for all of this.

  • Jim Jones

    Which is why I say use a humanist celebrant for all occasions. These assholes want to be paid to proselytize.

  • Jim Jones

    > He didn’t know her and simply wasn’t interested in her as a person at all. He never even bothered to offer personal condolences to my father.

    Did he want a fee?

  • larry parker

    The physical properties of something (in this case bread and wine) are its essence. If you change the essence you change the item, yet you claim that the bread and wine don’t change. Nothing changes, which, btw, is the inverse of transformation.
    The ‘miracles’ you refer to lack credibility. In one instance, it’s claimed that the ‘ heart tissue’ came from someone that was stabbed in the side. If you want to use medical phenomena as evidence please use a peer-reviewed medical journal and not a church website.
    I don’t think that pointing out the absurdity of someone’s beliefs constitutes persecution. If you don’t want your beliefs ridiculed, don’t hold ridiculous beliefs.

  • Beentheredonethat

    I don’t think you know what the word persecution means . Please look it up.
    Transubstantiation is a metaphysical concept, very difficult for those who do not understand the difficult philosophical terms. Tried to give a simple example with similar qualities. Obviously it didn’t work or else you wouldn’t be so snarky.

  • Clancy

    Cuestra’s deliberate and calculated cruelty drove at least two people away from the church. Do you think that was his goal?

  • larry parker

    You’re the one changing the definition of words to substantiate a made up phenomena. Bring some actual evidence and I might ease up on the snark. Have a nice day.

  • barriejohn

    The problem here is that this priest, like millions of other religious believers, really does think that it is his responsibility to warn others of the dangers of taking a path which will lead them, ultimately, into the flames of hell. This overrides all other considerations. While he is in the grip of his ludicrous belief system nothing is ever going to persuade him that his actions were anything other than kind and loving, or that he had any alternative whatsoever. “Religion poisons everything.”

  • Hell, as a doctrine, is pretty coercive to young children and adults, I would know.

  • The ominous spectre of cultural bolshevism arises again from the zombie corpse of nazi propaganda.

  • mrsolivaw

    You know, I can’t decide how many people here are trolls, but one thing’s for sure.

    Most of the commenters took this story as an excuse to attack Catholicism. I’m not Catholic, but have known several who were really lovely human beings. Don’t you think it does indicate, as the one Catholic commenter on here noted, that Catholics are being persecuted, when people jump on here to browbeat the entire religion for the failures or evil acts of a miniscule percentage?

    Sheesh. WHy not just go on a tirade about the evil of cars? People die quite frequently in them. All those evil car companies! Fie on them! Feel free to think of your own analogy- the point is, it’s a little unfair to judge an entire religion by one representative.

    And I’ve said it before, but as far as I’m concerned, atheism is its own religion- if you *beleive* there is no God (aka, you’re not just an agnostic, but are convinced there’s no creator), then…yeah. You’ve found religion lol.

    ….

    As for thoughts on the actual story- both the preist and the prior coach acted wrongly, if the reporting is accurate. The preist lied to the parents. All sorts of issues there- trust is probably the most valuable commodity there is, in a monk or nun of any religion. And the coach- if he was asked not to come and still showed up…? Yikes. Even if it was in good faith, he didn’t respect the wishes of the family, which indicates he’s just too socially retarded to be allowed to act as a motivator and trainer of children. At worst, he may be a world class bully, choosing to continue his abusive behavior by (as bullies do) running roughshod over the wishes of others, in a stupid act of dominance and disresepct.

    Overall, a very sad story. It also made me think about suicide- it’s a problem and *should not* be glorified, that’s for sure. But it deserves delicate handling, not the butcher job this preist apparently applied.

    EDIT: Actually, it may not, logically speaking, be clear why suicide is culturally frowned on. Simple answer (and my opinion): your state of mind at the time of death does influence where you end up in the next life. If your last act is to quit on life entirely, that won’t result in a happy situation in your next incarnation, which is very sad. :/. Life is a game and a test and a challenge, and throwing the board over because you don’t want to play doesn’t work very well. :). (Again, IMO.)

  • Michael

    Even that aside, the Catholic church, of course, has a centuries-long history of vile and murderous behavior. I wonder if our friend Scott would approve of a “neutral” funeral for an adherent of that ideology.

  • Alan T Harvey

    Having lost a beautiful sister to suicide following years of severe depression, especially severe in her last year, I know the tragedy of suicide only too well, and the hurt and pain that afflict all of us who loved our beautiful +Michele. But suicide is objectively wrong. One hopes and can hope that Our Divine Lord Who understands all granted the grace of repentance before her life ended, like that of this handsome young man whose self-murder is traumatizing his family and friends, that he also received forgiveness for most seriously violating God’s Will in that boy’s last act on earth.. All our sins violate God’s Will! That is why we all need a Savior, and why Our Lord came to undo the evil bequeathed to us by our first parents who brought sin, suffering, sickness and death into the world. And those who lose hope in being able to surmount the vicissitudes, pain and rejections of life in this “vale of tears,” as the Church calls our earthly travail. This priest, whose brutal honesty shocked the parents and who spoke in English (not his native language) may well have lacked due tact, but the priest did not err. Before the modern Vatican !! era, suicide-sinners could not even have a Mass of Christian Burial and were also denied burial in consecrated cemetery ground. Harsh? Yes! Not that the Church presumed even back then to know how God judged souls of suicide sinners, and certainly always prayed for them. but to show the living faithful the abhorrence with which they must view the sin of self-murder! Our life is not only our own. It is a gift from God; our use of it will be judged both in the strength of our faith and the strength of our love for Him, and for those He places in our path to love and even how we treat our enemies, and those who mistreat us. as Our Divine Lord forgave and prayed for His murderers before His ascended the Cross of our redemption. Until Christ opened the door to Paradise, the only door open to the sinful children of Adam was Hell — of varying degrees of pain of loss and the separation from the love of God.for eternity.
    I daresay huge numbers of people experience on occasion a desire “to end it all.” for there is huge unhappiness in the heart of Western man, commencing since/even before the French Revolution. The Church has lost much vigor of faith even in her clergy who are to be the ministers of God’s grace, in prayer, preaching the Gospel, and bringing Christ’s forgiveness and His Body and Blood to those prepared to receive the Sacred Mysteries He established for sinners, following reception of Holy Baptism. Let us all resolve to pray, both for those who took their lives before God called them and for ourselves that we be like those of whom Our Lord said, “He who perseveres to the end shall be saved.” (Mark 13:13)

  • Evidence?

    Edit to add: no, hearsay is not evidence. Any gossip or stories you might provide are echoed by Hindus, Muslims, nativists, and many others.

  • “throwing the board over because you don’t want to play doesn’t work very well.”

    It works quite well for making the pain stop. I’m all for helping folks find a non-lethal alternative to making pain stop, but there is no indication that there is anything after death except decomposition.

  • barriejohn

    I don’t need any “excuse” to attack Catholicism as it is an evil belief system that has enslaved billions and caused untold suffering over the years. Any comfort afforded by it is the comfort of a lie, and that is unforgivable, so you can fuck off with your “troll” accusations. And as for that hoary old chestnut about atheism being a “religion”: please furnish just one piece of solid evidence for the existence of any god or gods. I used to be deeply religious, and am now a confirmed atheist, and I can assure you that there there is no correspondence whatsoever.

  • barriejohn

    “He’s making it up as he goes along.”

  • epeeist

    There were many glowing eulogies given by Catholic priests for Nazis during WWII.

    Not forgetting the fact that Cardinal Bertram ordered requiem masses to be held for Hitler.

  • epeeist

    If not, then you should expect the same foe someone who ascribes to the equally vile and murderous ideology of Marxism.

    As far as I am aware my father murdered nobody. In fact the only crime he was ever charged with was obstructing the pavement during a demonstration against the then leader of the Labour party, and that was dismissed.

    Perhaps you could point out where in the works of Karl Marx he advocates murder.

  • epeeist

    He gave no real eulogy, just a general sermon about everlasting life in Jesus.

    A few years back I went to the funeral of my father’s last remaining sibling, my aunt. She had attended the same church in Castleford for decades but as in your case the priest seemed uninterested, the service was essentially a marketing exercise for Jesus inc.

    A few years later at my father’s funeral, in the spirit of “if you want it done right, do it yourself”, I gave the eulogy.

    Anecdotal, though it is backed up with figures showing that here in England the number of funerals the Church of England is taking has fallen to an all time low, none of the last half dozen or so funerals I have been to have had a religious element.

  • Scottlowther

    > my father murdered nobody

    And yet he apparently advocated an ideology that he had to know was responsible for something like 100 million murders.

  • Scottlowther

    What I “approve” of doesn’t matter. What is likely to occur is the issue. A Catholic funeral for a Catholic would, presumably, treat the deceased positively, at least on ideological grounds. A Catholic funeral for a Nazi or a Communist would, presumably, be less positive.

  • Scottlowther

    The Holodomor, dekulakization, Mao’s great famine, the Cultural Revolution and the Killing Fields were hardly “nazi propaganda.”

  • epeeist

    And yet he apparently advocated an ideology that he had to know was responsible for something like 100 million murders.

    And he had a funeral conducted by a member of an organisation that has been responsible for the deaths of many over the millennia, from the Crusades to the 30 year war.

  • barriejohn

    I am not an apologist for Communism (nor even a Socialist), but you’re confusing what were largely the policies and practices of mentally deranged, megalomaniac dictators with political ideologies. Many of these pogroms were nothing more than ethnic cleansing, whether carried out by those on the “right” or “left”. The Christian Church has supported, and even instigated, such atrocities down the years, so you’ve proved nothing at all.

  • PJHH

    > Cuestra’s deliberate and calculated cruelty

    Only in as much as that is what the religion itself calls for.

    > drove at least two people away from the church. Do you think that was his goal?

    No, that appears to be the goal of the religion itself.

  • A method of social analysis called marxism, apparently requires murder >.> /s

  • Mglass

    In this case, everyone, whether religious or not, is appalled by the behaviour of the priest.

  • Wessman

    There is truth in that priest’s words.

  • Broga

    The truth and certainty of the Roman Catholic faith is conveniently flexible. Parents were terribly distressed when their baby died and a priest didn’t get there in time to sprinkle some tap water on the baby. The innocent child was therefore deemed to be in purgatory. Then, after years of distress and handing money over to priests to shorten the time in purgatory, the Pope decided that there was no purgatory. You will remember, I know, the fury of so many RC mothers in Ireland and the corroding effect on the power of the priest. You will also have a better grasp of this faith based drivel than I have.

    You will also remember the scandal of the toxic and expensive “holy water” bought at the Lourdes Scamfest, with expensive tat by severely disabled Roman Catholics expecting a cure. What about a visible miracle like replacing an arm instead of the phony miracles that are given as “evidence.” The grisly Mother Theresa has already produced a couple on the way to sainthood. Would anyone here want that shrivelled hag, in body and emotions, to be their mother. Christopher Hitchens – much missed – fixed her reputation beyond recovery. If there is an afterlife she is in hell or perhaps purgatory. Except, that the latter is no longer there.

  • Broga

    Secular funerals are much cheaper: no expensive church to hire and priest to pay.

  • odys

    A complete jerk of a man that priest was, but the lesson is don’t be Roman Catholic. The church is in dire need of major reforming including its teachings about suicide, and pergatory. Other denominations do not follow that teaching.

    I am amazed at my Roman Catholic friends when you point out some of the official church positions and they say: ” Oh, I don’t believe that!” Well, you are saying you don’t believe in Roman Catholicism. Why remain and get abused?

  • Seeker

    A funeral is nothing more than a symbolic act to comfort the family – it does not save nor condemn the dead – only their willful decision to follow Christ while alive saves them – no priest’s words, mother mary’s intercessions, repeated prayers for the dead, money paid to the church, dead saint’s body parts in a glass jar, stone idols on a cross, or anointing the dead with water/oil or well wishes – we have ONE High Priest, ONE Intercessor with the Father, One Saviour Who’s blood was an atonement for sins. The thief on the cross went to be with the Lord and was not baptized, participated in no ‘Last Supper’, was not anointed with oil by a rabbi or other earthly man-made ceremonies. Eternal life was the gift of God, not the results of good works so no man can boast of what he accomplished, did, and how he earned his ticket to heaven. – ” For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
    Therefore, nazi or catholic or whatever funeral saves no one – it is merely a ceremony for the living for whatever benefit the living may think they get from it.

  • Seeker

    Why should the denier of God hear lies from the false prophet? That would be the blind leading the blind. “the fool has said in his heart there is no God” Psalm 14:1

  • Seeker

    Show me in the Bible where it tells us that suicide is a sin?
    We are told not to ‘murder’, but we can kill in cases of self defense, or defense of others and the state has the power to kill the murderer, or conduct war. Romans 13 – “If you do evil, then fear, for they do not carry the sword for nothing”
    While I think we should not end the live God has given us – I would suggest to you – Jesus Christ committed ‘suicide’ or ‘sacrificed’ Himself as payment for your sins – “No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” John 10:18
    Jesus could have called in a host of angels to rescue Him or He could have blinded His accusers and walked away – Therefore, Jesus did commit ‘suicide’ on your behalf. Is the person who steps in front of a bullet to save his friend guilty of ‘suicide’ or ‘murdering himself’?
    I would suggest to you, we are not told one way or the other IF suicide is a sin that condemns the person eternally. As to the priest’s words during this ceremony, perhaps he was trying to persuade the living not to do the same as this young man who was seeking an escape from life’s troubles. Maybe the priest was attempting the tell the teens to grow up and be strong in the Lord to accomplish His will.

  • pjdjmj

    The Priest was correct. Suicide leads to more suicide. Prior to VATII there would have been no Mass of the Dead for him. Suicide is the final Mortal Sin. Some of the posts on here are cowardly, ignorant and ugly. Insult the Moslem religion and see what happens.

  • WarPigg

    As a suicide, he’s lucky he got a Catholic funeral at all

  • Freeland_Dave

    Since suicide is a mental disease did Jesus condemn those who died as a result of their disease but believed in him? Are all who have disease cured of that disease and live normal happy lives?

  • Michael

    Nice backpedal. And by “nice,” I mean clumsy and obvious. Asshole.

  • ldw

    I don’t think you know what reality is. We know about the forms of water because it is observed, and there is a clear explanation for what happens.

    Neither of those is true for your mythical Transubstantiation. But, since you believe in the series of faked “eucharistic miracles” i’m not surprised.

  • ldw

    No, nothing in the ideology requires murder. The murders were done on the orders of people. Rather like the centuries long tradition of allowing priests to abuse children has been overlooked and hidden by popes.

  • ldw

    “A Catholic funeral for a Nazi or a Communist would, presumably, be less positive.”

    Unless, of course, they contributed a large amount of money to the church to buy favor. That clears up a bunch of stuff for the folks at the top of the church. Money uber alles, so to speak.

  • ldw

    “Many of those priests who abused children were abused themselves, some even by priests.”

    Convenient attempt at an out. No evidence thereof though. That’s as weak a defense as the fake study the church paid for to show that the priests behind the decades of abuse weren’t pedophiles.

  • Pofarmer

    none of the last half dozen or so funerals I have been to have had a religious element.

    That sounds a lot better than the religious stupidity that we’re commonly assailed with.

  • Liberty Dankmeme

    people prefer pleasant lies over unpleasant truths – it’s a sign of the times

  • Nathan Aldana

    Philosophy doesnt convert grape juice into plasma and red blood cells.

  • Nathan Aldana

    as though capitalism also didnt have millions of deaths on its hands.

  • catphish

    Sorry that he sermonised it – BUT – suicide is the ultimate un-forgiveable sin – when you commit it, you are then un-able to beg God’s forgiveness.

  • Scottlowther

    > nothing in the ideology requires murder

    Just like nothing in jumping out of an airplane without a parachute *requires* hitting the ground at extreme velocity. History has shown that socialism and communism require either jackboots and guns to the citizenry’s heads, or it will fail. because as nice as those ideologies sound to some people, they require something other than actual *real* humans to function as intended. A century ago one might have been forgiven for thinking that collectivism might be a good thing. After a century of democide and complete failure, anyone who ascribes to socialism or communism are as deluded as anyone whoa scribes to Nazism or Scientology.

  • Scottlowther

    Far, far fewer deaths due to socialism, communism or mercantilism. And on the other hand, the fact that there are now *billions* of humans living longer and healthier than the generations before can be laid directly at the feet of the three most important developments of modern Man capitalism, science and democracy.

  • ldw

    No, history doesn’t show that. It shows that evil people can do evil things no matter what tools they have.

    I’d suggest you study a little bit, but I’m guessing that since you’ve made up your mind to go with the lazy view study is beyond the possibilities.

  • GregGrimer

    Agree. What that priest said woukd have been believed by 99% of Catholics (and protestants) for 1900 years of Christian history.

  • GregGrimer

    That is not his job. He is a priest. Not a social worker.

  • ldw

    Wow. Priests are not there to soothe and comfort people. Still a reprehensible point of view.

  • Raging Bee

    What about the people whose words and actions may have driven him to suicide? Are their sins forgivable?

  • Raging Bee

    And…how does insulting everyone at the funeral, and refusing to honor their wishes, help anyone?

    Being right doesn’t give you the right to say whatever you want without regard to feelings or appropriateness.

  • Raging Bee

    Got any proof?

  • Raging Bee

    But suicide is objectively wrong.

    What about the words and actions of others that may have caused a MINOR to commit suicide?

  • Raging Bee

    Most of the commenters took this story as an excuse to attack Catholicism.

    …where “excuse” = “obvious good reason.”

  • Raging Bee

    I’m not sure what exactly the family were expecting.

    A few minutes of tact and decency toward people who were grieving the loss of a loved one? Is that too much to ask?

  • Duncan Hirohito

    What a joke having an 18th century Catholic from the hinterlands of solid Catholicism not even recognizing what might not offend a member of his flock. Someone ought to clue in this dumbbell that he just might survive if he practices much more humility that he thinks this crummy world deserves.

  • Raging Bee

    Where’s the “truth” in blaming the victim and not saying one damn word about who or what might have driven a MINOR to suicide?

  • Raging Bee

    I thought priests and ministers were SUPPOSED to function as social workers. They certainly brag about that function whenever anyone criticizes them or their religion.

  • Raging Bee

    I’ve been to black-Southern-Baptist funerals where the minister just went right from perfunctory eulogies to a blatant altar-call. As in, using someone’s death as an opportunity to remind everyone of his religion’s longstanding threat of Hell for non-believers and possibly soft-believers as well.

  • Raging Bee

    …suicide- it’s a problem and *should not* be glorified…

    Who the fuck is “glorifying” suicide, here or anywhere?

  • You might want to read Matthew 5:22 before you call anyone a fool, Seeker. 😀

  • GregGrimer

    No. They are not there for that. They are there to distribute the sacraments and save souls. If he tells the congregation that suicide is fine and everyone goes to heaven anyway and two of the suicided boy’s friends kill themselves then he has helped damn them to Hell.

    Christ’s commands are tough. Not some liberal love in.

  • GregGrimer

    Jesus offended all sorts of people. Including members of his flock.

  • Michael Neville

    So people aren’t important, only God. No wonder the Catholic Church supports child rape, God doesn’t say anything about it so it’s not bad in any way.

  • Joe Padgen

    Was the pedophile being a dick? Sure. I don’t mean to be callous but if you are a member of a nutty cult, then you shouldn’t be offended by the rhetoric.

  • Alan, first of all, condolences on the death of your sister.

    I don’t see, however, what difference it makes whether Vatican II or some earlier Catholicism is in effect. The theology you describe is absurdly complicated, almost to the point of being laughable. Surely a real god could simply uproot the problem of “sin” altogether and dispense with a hell (whatever one conceives it to be) without the need for priests, scriptures or rituals of any kind, and guide hurting people directly to find appropriate solutions for whatever pain they may be enduring.

  • Michael Neville

    You’re right, most Catholics are good people trying to live the best lives they can. Unfortunately, the clergy have been trained otherwise. When Catholic priest is synonymous with child rapist, when bishops are known for supporting and protecting those child rapists, when the Catholic hierarchy would rather women die than have an abortion, when the Pope lies about condoms and AIDS, then it’s obvious that the Catholic Church doesn’t care about people.

  • Michael Neville

    I prefer the outlook toward suicide expressed in John Steinbeck’s Cannery Row:

    It was deeply a part of Lee’s kindness and understanding that man’s right to kill himself is inviolable, but sometimes a friend can make it unnecessary.

  • Michael Neville

    Possibly being right doesn’t mean someone has to be an asshole about it.

  • Scottlowther

    Perhaps you can demonstrate your superior history to the class and show where economic collectivism and the quashing of the profit motive has led to a glitteringly successful economy on part with that of the US and western Europe. Difficulty: no totalitarian regimes threatening the worker with death if they are not adequately productive.

  • GregGrimer

    Then you are ignorant. Not entirely your fault, but also because the Catholic Church has failed to do what it was mandated to do.

    The problem of being “nice” and not telling people harsh truths. It’s why we have so many bastard children. We call single moms “heroes”. No, most of them are sluts.

    So yes, priests historically pointed out that suiciding will likely result with you in Hell. That’s a deterrent. You’ll get less suicides and keep some souls out of Hell. Priests are concerned with eternal life, not touchy feely temporal emptions.

  • GregGrimer

    That’s correct. People aren’t important, not when compared to God. God is infinitely more important.

    Truth is more important that a person’s snowflake feelings. If suicide is a mortal sin, then unconfessed that sends you to Hell. Judas, after all, committed suicide. So did Hitler. It is a despairing act and grave offence against God who is the author of life. Your life is not yours to dispose of as you see fit. It is God’s.

    ALL DENOMINATIONS OF CHRISTIANITY would have taught this up to the early 20th Century. If religion has been toned down for the feelings of man then that has nothing to do with eternal truths.

  • Alan T Harvey

    Thank your for your condolences; very kind of you, especially so, considering you do not share the Church’s view which I tried to state as best as I can as a layman.The problem of evil, the problem of enduring sin and evil, the nature of free human will, and the belief that God’s Will will ultimately be accomplished, in addition to God’s salvific Will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and the nature of life and/or punishment after death, especially the doctrine that God is supremely good, that “God is Love,” yet God wills everlasting punishment to unrepentant, horribly wicked sinners, are all matters deep. complex, and to some like yourself absurd, and to others worthy of belief based on the authority of Scripture and the one Church Jesus founded to teach, rule, and sanctify all men, — and which we are told shrinks to almost nothingness before Our Lord returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to judge the world.
    We all begin somewhere on this journey of faith, and some reject faith in Christ altogether. I can’t answer for other people. I know the Church always has taught us to pray for the grace of final perseverance, that we not be overwhelmed by our adversities, even persecutions, that we never despair of God’s mercy or His loving providence in our lives, knowing how wicked those who rule the world can be and how weak is the human condition and how fierce is the power of Satan, “roaming the world like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour,” as St Peter tells us in his epistle. (We seem to be living in the summit of evil, in the “Great Tribulation” predicted in Scripture for the End Times, since the French Revolution, at least: considering the murders due to aggressive wars, socialist ideology and hideous gulags throughout the 20th/21st century). Despite my opposition to suicide, what I myself might do if given a state of unremitting pain I do not know! I hope I would be like Job:
    placing myself in God’s hands and trusting in His wisdom, grace, strength, and loving providence and saying : “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him,” as said Job to his wife who advised him to “Curse God and die.” But I do not know what I may do! .My late beloved Mother had a saying that comes to mind now: “Never say what you’re never going to do, for you never know what you’re ever going to do.” — I close on that note. Wishing you a life of faith, adequate means, good health, and above all, a good death!
    (The Catholic faith is a tough religion to live, as we see even in many clergy lives these days —having a hard time staying pure in a society everywhere saturated with glorification of lust — but it is definitely the best religion to die in. –That I certainly hope for myself and recommend to others.)

  • Thank you, Alan. May you always find strength, courage and wisdom to navigate the challenges of life.

  • Alan T Harvey

    No one has a “right to commit sin.” Any sin, least of all the irrevocable sin of self-murder; it is a supreme sin against the virtue of Faith in God, His Providence and His love for each of us. That we all sin and some of us kill ourselves does not undo the principle. We all have the means to commit various sins that mostly suit our fancy, mostly sins of weakness. Sins of malice are worse, more problematic as to spiritual damage and the jeopardy they expose to us; while sins of violence are indeed extremely serious violations of God’s Law —murder and sacrilege being the worst; murder by torture even far greater!. All our sins are offenses against God, in ways we cannot understand exactly. Which is the reason we do penance for our sins!. Our Lord said, “Unless you do penance, you shall perish” meaning – die in your sins.. Our Lord tells us it is better to cut off our right hand than to go into Hell whole and entire! ( Meaning of course to avoid the occasions of sin, lest we sin and wind up in Hell.) What does that tell you about the “right to kill yourself.? “Oh, sure! It”s perfectly all right! Go right ahead!” God forbid you think like that or, worse, teach others to think like that! What is “inviolable” in your statement is your right to exercise your free will — yes, to do good, to yourself and to others, to worship, thank, and pray to God, and of course to do good and avoid evil. — One of the very first things a child learns in Catholic catechism in answer to the question, “Why did God make you?” is “God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, in order that I may be happy with Him forever in the next.” And we can’t knock on Heaven’s door without being invited!. There is a beautiful poem by the 16th century Spanish mystic, Saint John of the Cross: “Muero porque no muero” “I die because I do not die…” languishing on earth in love with God, dying to be united with Him,” as St Paul himself did.

  • Alan T Harvey

    The suicide of a minor is indeed one of the cruelest of crimes. Most people regard the suicide of a minor as principally the fault of others — most likely parents or perhaps other primary care givers or even the minor’s own contemporaries — this terrible sin which makes one quake with anger and pain even when the person be unknown to us! — is judged by Almighty God Who understands all,Who judges all. Indeed Our Lord tells us we cannot even enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless we become like little children! How can God not have the pleroma of mercy for a poor child who kills himself! We must leave all judgment to the goodness, mercy, and justice of God, our Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier, our Just Judge Who judgeth with equity and Who hath also said, “Vengeance is mine.” And perhaps especially judgment to the one(s) who caused a poor helpless child to kill himself, as you rightly point out. A child who commits suicide is a most sorrowful tragedy unlike, say, the suicide of one who has lost his fortune but cannot bear the thought of a life of poverty, or even of one who kills himself to avoid public shame for exposure of his crimes. Even in those cases God judges the emotional turmoil and mental confusion, or inability of trust in God’s providence. We must always ourselves have mercy on those who kill themselves, that Our Good Lord, Who is a Merciful Judge and Who lives in eternity, may have mercy on the souls of such sinners, but we must never contradict God’s Law and state that which is evil is really quite all right!

  • Alan T Harvey

    Four people up-voted you, but I am, sorry to say, at a loss on how to respond to your objection, which others obviously feel has merit. Could you be kind enough to elaborate for me, please, because I’m clearly dense here in grasping the point! I might even agree with you if I knew what you were talking about!

  • Alan T Harvey

    My goodness, Astreja, I did not expect that! I wish God’s choicest blessings to you and yours at this beautiful time of year! — when we celebrate Our Divine Lord coming to earth to rescue us by being born as an Infant to Our Blessed Lady, the Mother of God-made-Man! And by virtue of Christ’ s few last words on the Cross, in His awful thirst and dereliction of agony, He bequeathed His own dear Mother to be our own dear Mother too. Merry Christmas and God bless You! And your own dear Mother too wherever she may be. May we all meet one day with a smile in Paradise!

  • Alan T Harvey

    You are right. The world “suicide” is not in Scripture. The Commandment of God, “Thou shalt not kill” is better translated as “Thou shalt not commit murder.” for that is what it means. Obviously murdering oneself is certainly included!
    In German the word for suicide is clearer (even without need of translation for English speakers) viz:
    “Selbstmord” which clearly means “self-murder.”
    The Church has always considered suicide as a mortal sin, objectively speaking, and one that can condemn one to Hellfire. Subjectively, of course, the Lord in his omniscience and mercy judges the subjective state of the soul of one who left this word by his own hand. Damnation may not be necessitated by divine justice. But neither is immediate entrance into the KIngdom of Heaven either, least of all to someone who just murdered himself, in that all-holy place where nothing impure may enter, and as all sin renders all of us impure to varying degrees.And certainly the suicide of Judas marked him with a scent of damnation for failing to trust God’s mercy, his failure to beg forgiveness following his betrayal of Our Divine Lord, choosing to kill himself instead.. (Judas still has some “defenders” as to his salvation.)
    That takes us into another area altogether: the punishment due to saved souls who still have not satisfied the divine justice —are not totally pure, in fact — — although Our Lord did/does remove the eternal punishment of sin for all believers in Him, who obey Him and His command to be baptized, and who tried to live a life in accordance with God’s Commandments but did so imperfectly. It is clear in the Book of Maccabees there is a place of expiation after death, whereby the souls detained there are aided by the prayers and almsgiving of the souls on earth. This Book is not contained in the Protestant Canon of Scripture but in the far, far older, Catholic and Orthodox Canon of Scripture of the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the texts that refer to a place of expiation, a penalty after death to non-mortal sins committed after reception of Holy Baptism is found in various places, which I can’t at the moment provide, and which have similar parallels in the Old Testament, regarding Gehenna, Sheol, Hades.:

  • Sophotroph

    And look where that got him!

  • GregGrimer

    His life had more impact than any other in history.

  • PJHH

    > Is that too much to ask?

    Given this is the RCC, yes, apparently.

  • Michael Neville

    Since gods are imaginary then sins, offenses against gods, don’t exist. First you have to show evidence that your magic sky pixie exists before you can tell us what this fictitious character wants and desires.

  • Michael Neville

    Thanks for showing how anti-humanist your cult is. It amazes me that someone would belong to a group that actively and passionately hates people. But then self-loathing is a requirement to being a Christian.

  • GregGrimer

    Of course we are anti-humanist. You either serve God or man. You cannot serve two masters.

  • Raging Bee

    What a load of useless, content-free word-salad. And who the fuck is saying suicide is “really quite all right?” Do you have ANY clue what you’re talking about?

  • GregGrimer

    And it is all versions of Christianity. Not just Catholicism.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/3169451?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

  • Raging Bee

    Yeah, that’s the problem: priests are “concerned” with pie-in-the-sky fantasies of the afterlife, and have absolutely nothing to offer in this life.

    And no, screaming about Hell is NOT a “deterrent” to suicide. It may have been all the Church could offer back in the Middle Ages, but those days are long gone, and secular science and institutions today have much better means of dealing with such issues. We don’t need your simpleminded religion or its backward ideas anymore.

  • GregGrimer

    Again, you are incorrect and your ignorance of the subject is showing. Priests WERE concerned with the afterlife until the middle of the 20th Century. Since Vatican II, however, you would struggle to find more than a handful of priests who say mass in the vernacular who would say anything remotely harsh to the parents of a suicide. 99.9% of them would be oozing sympathy.

    Have you been to a Catholic funeral? They eulogize the dead person like they were a hero.

    The Church has not “screamed about Hell” since the early 1960s. The Westboro Baptist Church has but not the Catholic Church. John Paul II even suggested that we can “hope that Hell is empty”, which must mean that even Hitler and Stalin are not there. It would be a very bizarre thing if they, having murdered, millions avoided Hell but an 18 year old suicide case did not.

    There is almost no Catholic alive today that knows what the 7 Commandments of the Church are or can tell you the Ten Commandments in order. If you don’t believe me ask the person at work who claims to be a Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church today is a 90% secular organisation. That is why the Bishop removed this priest from duty.

    The idea that Catholic priests are harshly condemning suicide is laughable. It’s a ridiculous straw man.

    You would find it twenty times easier to find a homosexual rapist priest than a priest who teaches the Catholic faith.

  • Raging Bee

    You would find it twenty times easier to find a homosexual rapist priest than a priest who teaches the Catholic faith.

    Lots of priests have been known to do both. Oh, and why are you only mentioning “homosexual rapist” priests? Having trouble admitting that girls and nuns have been raped by priests too? Desperate for a scapegoat?

  • GregGrimer

    The vast majority of rapes and sexual predation is homosexual in nature. Because the seminaries were infiltrated by homosexuals in the 1940s and 1950s.

    So you’d find it easy to find a homosexual rapist. Less easy to find an hetrosexual rapist and extremely difficult to find any priest who would believe and teach the same faith and morals held in 1918, 1818, 1718, 1618 …. etc.

    As for scapegoats quite the reverse. I fully admit that the clergy are culpable and I’d like to see a good 40% (over 100,000 of them at least), executed or jailed for life, with no parole. Even worse than the rapes (which are evil enough) is the fact that 99.9% of them remained silent.

  • Raging Bee

    Another Catholic apologist trying to pin all this on gays? Even though most of us out here in the REAL world (you know, the world your God created for us to live in?) understand that homosexuality and child-sexual-abuse are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS and don’t always go together? Yea, you’re scapegoating, and you’re not fooling anyone.

  • Sophotroph

    Impressive for a fictional character. Imagine what he could have accomplished had he really existed!

  • Raging Bee

    Because the seminaries were infiltrated by homosexuals in the 1940s and 1950s.

    What, you actually think NO ONE was molesting boys before the 1940s? News flash: it’s been going on for most of the Church’s history.

    And if your Church is so perfect and moral, then why did they allow and enable this “infiltration” in the first place? You’re basically admitting that your Church is utterly incapable of enforcing its own morality within its own ranks, and has been for many decades, at least. That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement of your Church.

  • Raging Bee

    Jesus said far more sensible things than your Church will ever say.

  • Bex Badger Hallihan

    The Roman Church has always considered suicide a mortal sin – they’ve been pretty explicit about it in the past. I don’t know or care where and how it says or doesn’t say “in the bible”, but if you’re a member of the Roman Catholic Church you should be aware of their stance on suicide (not to mention abortion, divorce, sex, and paedophilia) and maybe consider a different spiritual path.

  • red speck

    This priest may have his doctrine down pat, but he is far from understanding the Biblical nature of God’s love for humanity. And how tone deaf do you have to be to take this venue to berate a grieving family? Sad, too, that this young man had no one in church close enough to turn to as he was suicidally desperate, or anyone to do a proper remembrance of him at his memorial service.

  • Seeker

    -“Murder” is the correct term/use in Commandments – which is the unlawful taking of ‘another’s ‘ life, not ‘your’ life. Therefore, suicide is not covered/documents/said or communicated as being a ‘sin’. Using your ‘theory’, then it could be said that Jesus committed ‘suicide’ by “laying down His life” (because He said He had the power to do so and to take it up to prevent his ‘murder’). Was He not said to be the ‘sacrificial lamb of God’ – as payment for our sins. Since He ‘sacraficed’ Himself – then He essentially committed suicide.
    -Would your church recognize the soldier who threw himself onto a grenade to save his comrades as having committed suicide?
    -We don’t recognize the extra books not canonized by religious experts of the day – which I ‘assume’ grants all these imaginary ‘powers’ to priests to regulate/berate/intimidate the followers.
    -As the theory of purgatory – this is in contrast to 2 Corinthians 5:8 “to be absent from the body, and is to be present with the Lord” and I don’t see anything about ‘station stops’ between this world and presence of Jesus.
    -Since Judas reportedly did not repent and was condemned – then maybe he was not really saved to begin with? Peter denied Jesus three times but repented and was called a ‘rock’. Was Peter saved prior to denying Christ or after it? Oh, I know, that’s beyond your knowledge and a trick question so we’ll forget about that one on this test exam.
    -“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. I cannot ‘work’ my way into heaven, but only have ‘faith’.
    “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment . So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Hebrews 9:27 Either Jesus’ blood covered ALL my sins or it did not ‘save’ me from condemnation.

  • Seeker

    Well, let’s examine your statement:
    -Is an ‘atheist’ one who denies the existence of God and doesn’t the Bible tell us such a person is a “fool” for doing so?
    -Next, consider the ‘false prophet’ who leads the flock astray with false doctrines – would you then consider both persons as lost or foolish? “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” 2John1:7
    -Then show me where I am “angry” in stating the obvious and confronting lies with the truth and logic?
    May I suggest you become a ‘fruit inspector’ –
    “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” Matthew 7:16-20
    Or you could be a ‘good shepard’ – “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” Matthew 10:16
    Or you could even be ‘judgemental’ of behaviors, but not of person’s worth before God – “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23 – so ‘judge’ behavior as being ‘sinful’ or ‘good’.
    Or in common folk language – ‘don’t be so heavenly minded, you’re no earthly good’. Shalom

  • Why are you quoting the Bible at me? It has no authority whatsoever in my life.

    If your god actually exists, it can come talk to me in person. Your services as a middleman are not required, mortal.

  • Seeker

    Is a person, who is truly ‘mentally ill’, capable of conscientiously deciding to commit their lives to Jesus? I would say the term ‘mentally ill’ has been grossly abused like drug/alcohol abuse is a ‘disease’. Seems to me a ‘disease’ is communicable to another thru germs/viruses, whereas physical conditions can come thru birth, accidents or lifestyle.
    In any case, I believe those under the age of accountability or incapable of making sane, logical decisions/thoughts – are excused and saved by grace. Which does not mean I believe those who commit suicide are condemned, which your priests seems to proclaim. To my understanding, there is only ONE sin which leads to eternal destruction and that is the sin of non-belief, denying Jesus as Savior, or refusing to accept the Holy Spirit.

  • Robert Baden

    Persecution? My mother’s family came from Mexico. Some of my cousins by marriage are “hidden Jews”. We expect the Inquisition.

  • Matthew O’Neil

    Here is the text of the Homily. It isn’t at all what the family and media claimed it to be.

    http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2018/images/12/16/father.lacuesta.homily.maison.hullibarger.funeral.pdf

  • Alan T Harvey

    Dear Sir: If there be no God, no Supreme Being, Creator /as you so “believe” or maintain, asking me to prove to you that such a Being does in fact exist, just answer me one question before I proceed —- and I am not confident it is within my power to disabuse you of unbelief (not being trained in philosophical Theodicy) — Can anything be produced from nothing? Stated another way, Can nothing create something?

  • Alan T Harvey

    I was referring to Michael Neville’s point that John Steinbeck maintained a man had an inviolable right to kill himself. In this sense that view made it “quite all right,” — which act a sane person would hardly commit for light reasons, but which Steinbeck’s character would nevertheless grant without objection. I myself knew a USAF Colonel-pilot who became a physician after retirement from military, having s very successful practice in Salt Lake City and a beautiful vacation home in La Jolla Shores, CA. At age 61 in excellent health, he flew to Dallas, blew his brains out.in a hotel, left a statement that he was unwilling to undergo the deterioration of body and mind through the vicissitudes of old age, and that he had seen his best years and was leaving of his own free will. Make of that what you will, but this physician certainly thought it was “really quite all right.”

  • Michael Neville

    Define nothing. Be rigorous.

    I don’t know how the universe started and neither do you. You pretend, based on a couple of 2500 year old religious myths, that your magic sky pixie invented the universe but other than stories some Hebrew priests stole from the Babylonians, you don’t have anything to back up this pretense. At least I’m honest when I say that I don’t know. If you were honest you’d admit that you don’t know either.

  • Defensis Prime

    “LaCuesta’s goal, the priest states online, is:
    ‘To be part of the revival of Catholic culture.'”

    I’d like to thank this POS for helping to, instead, kill it faster.

  • The actual homily is available at http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2018/images/12/16/father.lacuesta.homily.maison.hullibarger.funeral.pdf

    Judge for yourself if you are a free thinker.

  • ldw

    Wow — you are truly delusional. But then — you buy into Catholic beliefs, so that’s to be expected.

  • pjdjmj

    Possibly you are being a dirty word about the Priest. My first post still stands and the latter part is especially about you.

  • Dragoness Eclectic

    I’m sorry for you, that you have such a twisted understanding of both God and Catholicism. I hope you gain wisdom someday and become an actual Christian, instead of a mouthpiece of Satan. “Love your neighbor as yourself” is a much higher commandment than an early medieval Church doctrine that the early papacy pulled out of its ass to keep suffering, oppressed Christians from suiciding their way to heaven in droves.

    Only the devil preaches hate and lies; God, through Jesus and the prophets before him, teaches us to love our neighbor, comfort those who mourn, heal the sick and injured, and to have compassion on the weak and broken. “Break not the bruised reed”. The Church’s teaching on suicide became more compassionate when the men who created and revised the doctrines of men learned more about the causes of suicide in depression and mental illness. Suicide condemning souls to hell was never a doctrine of God, it was a doctrine of men, and can be discarded as such.

  • Nocturnal

    This is horrible but is perfectly in line with Catholic doctrine. I hail from Portugal, a traditionally Catholic country, one of those places than until recently you were either Catholic or you kept a very low profile and hoped no-one paid you much attention (or, if you roll the centuries back, you were burnt at the stake) and suicides were not even allowed burial in holy ground, let alone a proper funeral. Which, by the way, is still the practice in Poland, at least in some cases.

    I vividly recall, as a child, being taught in Catholic school that suicide was close to homicide, if not the same. This profound demonizing of suicide stems from the idea that your body is not your own, it is God’s, so destroying the life therein is going against God’s will and basically doing away with His property. It has nothing to do with caring for suicide victims or their families. Not surprisingly, this exact same reasoning is used against abortion.

    In other words, this legacy of hatred for suicide victims does not just go away even if the Church decides to tone down its rhetoric. Priests who absorbed this mentality are not about to just change their mind and become ever so understanding, they will carry on as they always have.

    I bet this happens and has happened a lot more often than we even know, it’s just that for a long time no-one would even speak of it because the very shame of losing a family member to suicide was, for a Catholic, so much that keeping silent was natural.

  • Nocturnal

    When I was a kid, my Catholic school took us to Fátima for an extended field trip and I had to buy some bottled holy water. I could not believe the stupidity of it all, it was so utterly insane that I had to hold solid proof, as it were, in my very hands because I knew that otherwise no-one would have believed me.

    I have since them misplaced it but I should still have it.

    Oh, btw, since then the peddling of ‘holy’ stuff has been upgraded and there is now canned air from Fátima for sale. Air!

  • Nocturnal

    The priest at my baptism railed against ‘the evils of communism’. I was one month old so I obviously do not recall but my mother does and she was not pleased. It was a shit-fest, with everyone being extremely uncomfortable as this fellow ranted, raged, and asked God to ‘save this little child from the dangers of communism’. You know, like you do.

  • Nocturnal

    That reminds me about my baptism.

    The priest at my baptism railed against ‘the evils of communism’. I was
    one month old so I obviously do not recall but my mother does and she
    was not pleased. It was a shit-fest, with everyone being extremely
    uncomfortable as this fellow ranted, raged, and asked God to ‘save this
    little child from the dangers of communism’.

  • pjdjmj

    Your premise is incorrect and insipid. Being right just might prevent further suicides, did you ever think of that? This “feel good” silliness is not good for society at all. There is a reason God gave us the Ten Commandments. Think before your post nonsense and grow up.

  • Dragoness Eclectic

    No, he wasn’t. He was completely wrong. The RCC decided last century that suicide when you are not in your right mind is NOT a mortal sin, because you are by definition not accountable. And most suicide is a product of serious depression, a mental illness, that puts you very much NOT in your right mind. We’re not talking about some proud ancient Roman committing suicide to avoid being on the losing side dragged in triumph behind the victor’s chariot–we’re talking about modern suicide, which is associated with either serious depression or terminal illness (and depression goes with the latter, too).

    Prior to Vatican II, the Roman Church was fucking medievalist; now they’re almost up to the Enlightement era. Too bad the rest of us live in the 21st century.

  • Dragoness Eclectic

    Let me just cut & paste the important bit:

    No, he wasn’t. He was completely wrong. The RCC decided last century that suicide when you are not in your right mind is NOT a mortal sin, because you are by definition not accountable. And most suicide is a product of serious depression, a mental illness, that puts you very much
    NOT in your right mind.

    Also that argument was always stupid theology. Suicide being unforgiveable was a early medieval doctrine of men, it was never a doctrine of God.

  • EllyR

    I am sorry to say that as callous as I think the priest was, whoever goes with religion and priests has to expect to be just like that. I am hardly surprised, especially after the bovine bishop representing the US at the last royal wedding, speech.

  • EllyR
  • EllyR

    I agree and will suggest to carry some airline puke bags when doing that…

  • Mustafa Curtess

    There is no ideology more “vile and murderous” than Abrahamic superstition itself.

  • Mustafa Curtess

    Not forgetting that regardless what and why any of those Nazis did; So long as they Confessed and Repented “in Christ’s Holy Name” their Salvation is certain. (So far as I’m aware – as good as all were Christians, the majority of whom were Catholic, and many devoutly so.)

  • Broga

    I have seen a young priest, a few years ago, getting disabled people on to a bus for the trip to Lourdes. I think they also had a couple of nurses. I have never seen the senior RC priest on the bus and I suspect he is too fastidious to allow himself in the midst of what must a nightmare of a trip. On an earthy but realistic level I wondered at the difficulties of getting these very disabled people to the lavatory. I assume they returned clutching their expensive pieces of tat. No miracles were reported.

  • GregGrimer

    Here is a transcript of the sermon given by the priest.

    Shows how weak and feeble the parents are. What utter snowflakes modern Catholics have become. No wonder their son killed himself with pathetic thin skinned wimps like that as parents. Probably raised him in an incubator of only positive thoughts.

    http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2018/images/12/16/father.lacuesta.homily.maison.hullibarger.funeral.pdf

  • GregGrimer

    He was right. Look at western society now. We have many of the errors of communism today. If you understood communism properly you would see that.

  • Paul Douglas

    There is no evidence of any “gods”, so who did create those ten commandments?
    And which ten commandments are you referring to?

  • EllyR

    The one and only good thing in communism was that they put down religions as much as they could…

  • Paul Douglas

    Just as the earth being created in 6 days was believed by 99% of christianists for 1900 years of christian history. What’s your point?

  • EllyR

    Do you have anything more recent to quote? The bible is old, a mythology and totally irrelevant today!

  • Paul Douglas

    Who created your god? Or is “he” a nothing?
    Answer that and we can answer your other question.

  • GregGrimer

    Communism is a religion.

  • EllyR

    Enjoy…

  • EllyR

    Use protection, you never know who was there before you…

  • Mythblaster

    “Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, “Why have you done this to me?” And the snake answered, “Look, lady, you knew I was a snake.”

    I feel for the family, really, I do, but c’mon… the priest did what priests do. Snakes bite. Priests condemn suicide. Unfortunate, but not the least bit shocking.

  • Raging Bee

    Secular mental-health services might do a BETTER job of preventing more suicides. Did you ever think of that? People who have dealt with such issues directly have; and they find your Church’s backward bullshit useless AT BEST.

  • Orengo

    I can’t believe the boy’s father asked the priest to “please stop”. I would have knocked that bastard priest unconscious – in front of the congregation.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Hopefully the family doesn’t pay the priest’s fee for presiding over the funeral. Money is what the Catholic church worships & that’s where to hit the Catholic church

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “The Commandment of God, “Thou shalt not kill” is better translated as “Thou shalt not commit murder.” for that is what it means.”

    And those commandments ( there are 613, not just 10) were for the Hebrews & for Hebrews dealing with other Hebrews.

    In other words, don’t murder other Hebrews, don’t steal from other Hebrews, don’t enslave other Hebrews ( enslaving non-Hebrews is OK), etc etc.

  • Raging Bee

    Either offer some evidence to back up your beliefs, or admit you have none. Stop trying to change the subject.

  • Alan T Harvey

    If you think the Good Lord countenances suicide or that Christianity — Catholicism for 20000 years and innumerable Protestant sects in the past 500 years — countenance suicide you are certainly taking the Christian moral law into your own hands. It has always been held as objectively, inherently evil. Why you think it is somehow exempted from the Commandment not to take a human life because the individual would be taking his own life is fallacious,unwarranted exegesis, apart from the greater matter that each of us is a steward of our own bodies given to each of us uniquely by Almighty God. Each person is responsible for the use of his body to Almighty God who has decided the measure of talent each person will be given, as well as the task to double that talent, as Our Lord taught, in the time allotted before that life is withdrawn. God is the author of life! It is not ours to dispose of that life,whenever we have a mind to, objectively speaking again. It is true Our Divine Lord gave Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind in obedience to God the Father, but we are talking about the way God chose to save mankind both from the wickedness of the Devil and also — as a result of sin entering into the world through the sin of Adam and Eve — the weakened condition of man’s will, his mind, his body, his understanding, and his gravitation toward constant sinfulness and selfishness. How God chose to implement His plan for our redemption is God’s business. The Commandments He has given to us are also His business, and for you to maintain suicide is exempt is not only absurd, it is in fact evil too. But I maintain you taking the Scriptures produced by the Church and guaranteed by the Church, and whose contents were decreed by the Church — and then throwing out that very Church — you do indeed, as St Peter warned in his epistle,”wrest the Scriptures to your own destruction.” because you substitute your authority for that of the Church Christ founded on St Peter. BTW The Canon of Scripture for the Old Testament (from which seven Greek- language books were thrown out by Luther; as the Jews had done about 120 AD —plus Luther wanted to delete the Book of Revelation and the Epistle of St James, but his closest followers objected strongly.. But the Catholic Old Testament was the same Canon of Scriptures the Apostles themselves used, as did the entire post-Apostolic era Fathers, i all their travels around the Mediterranean, and even down to India, where St Thomas the Apostle is buried. Luther followed the Jews because he denied the need for temporal punishment due to sin after death. Observant Jews to this day, even absent the Greek-language text of Maccabees, honor their dead by prayers for their deliverance from Sheol, etc.And of course Orthodox Christians use the same Old Testament Canon as Catholic Christians (being in communion for the first thousand years, plus two short reunions thereafter) and similarly make great sacrifices, personal and ecclesial, to expedite by their charity for the suffering souls, the souls of their loved ones through the catharsis needed for total purification (the last “jot and tittle”) before entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

  • Alan T Harvey

    Everybody seems to get the back of your hand! Your mean-spiritedness is noticeable and uncharitable, and not conducive to dialogue. I did not change the subject: I commenced, in order to find my footings for making “my case,” where I needed to start out from. I merely asked “before I proceed” as I said, if Mr Neville thought that something could be produced from nothing.

  • Alan T Harvey

    I asked you if something can be created by nothing. Also, can nothing produce anything? Doe anything come into existence from nothing?
    Nothing means not a thing. A compete utter void. —You do not yet know what I believe, or what I pretend to “know.” —I asked you a simple question: can nothing produce something? Can nothing produce anything? Can any thing come from nothing? Answer me “rigorously” and I will make an attempt to add to or to question your response, since we are both trying to establish a valid basis for whatever it is we believe is based on implicit or explicit, demonstrable or un-demonstrable truth..

  • Raging Bee

    Exactly: you tried to change the subject.

  • pjdjmj

    You just destroyed your own nonsense. If secular services do such a fine job why has the suicide rate increased dramatically? Also, your idolatry of the government instead of God is terrible. If you ever are able to stop your mindless bigotry you will be able to better use the small brain you were born with.

  • pjdjmj

    You decimated your own false argument with your dirty mind/mouth. You live in your own made-up hell.

  • sfmike

    I attended a funeral as a kid where the damn priest lectured on aborted fetuses for ten minutes. These cultists are mentally ill. Once again religion ruins everything. Sad the parents don’t see this as a wakeup call and start living a deity free life. Sad.

  • Raging Bee

    Your incoherent raving about “idolatry of the government” strongly indicates you have no clue what you’re talking about. You are dismissed.

  • Raging Bee

    A slightly more intelligent priest could easily have said something like: “Let me just add here, that if anyone here has thoughts of hurting or killing yourselves, please please PLEASE find someone to talk to about it! My door is always open, but if you don’t want to talk to me, that’s okay, there’s other people to talk to, and other services, both in and out of the Church.” And he could have brought information-sheets to the funeral for people to take if they wanted.

    But then, that radical idea came from a non-Christian, and it involves admitting you might find help outside the Church, so I guess that rules it out, amirite?

  • Raging Bee

    From the transcript:

    Having said that, I think that we must not call what is bad good, what is wrong right. Because we are Christians, we must say what we know is the truth – that taking your own life is against God who made us and against everyone who loves us. Our lives are not our own. They are not ours to do with as we please…

    So yeah, this guy did CONDEMN the deceased for acting “against God” (then later undermined his own point by waffling about forgiveness, like Christians often do when they realize how stupid and hurtful their rhetoric is); and spouted the standard bullshit about “calling what is bad good” (what, had someone at the funeral said the kid was right to kill himself?); and then he rounded it out by asserting that NO ONE has ANY right to choose what to do with their lives. This priest is a moron way out of his depth, flailing about with a disordered mishmash of asinine talking-points.

    And where the fuck do you get that bit about “raised him in an incubator of only positive thoughts?” Citation required.

  • Raging Bee

    Care to point out what, specifically, the OP got wrong here?

  • GregGrimer

    Hurtful? I am sorry snowflake boy, but it is going to hurt a lot more when you are burning in Hell for all eternity. The truth is the truth and your opinion does not change it.

    A young person doing dangerous sports might be offended and hurt when I call them a fool, but if they listen and avoid killing themselves as a result, then, eventually they might realise that them being “hurt” is far less important than not being dead.

  • Freeland_Dave

    It is a breath of fresh air to see one who has studied the Word of God instead of paying heed to the words of men. However there is a communicable disease that infects the mind that we can get from one another as we spread the beliefs of mankind in the form of humanism as we encourage others to turn away from God in the pursuit of earthly desires and pleasures. Giving over to a reprobate mind is a disease which only God can cure and the cure offered by Satan is the lie he gave mankind in the beginning. i am not Catholic as you may have inadvertently .implied as these men, who claim to be of God, are not my priests. I have but one Priest and that is Jesus. I do agree that denying Him as our Savior is the only way that we can truly be lost for to deny Him is to reject the Holy Spirit and God as He is the embodiment of all three who are inseparable. Most of mankind today give more importance to their mortal lives and are largely unconcerned with their immortal lives. It is as Jesus warned when he told us what shall it profit a man to gain the world and loose his soul? We do not have the authority to look into the hearts of men and judge them fit or unfit of being given an immortal life. That decision rests with God. We are saved as Abraham was saved, by our faith in Jesus/God that is counted as righteousness by the Grace of his love. It is our lack of faith in him that ultimately condemns us and what Satan tempts us with and tells our sick minds is simply a lie. Our commission, as his followers, is to spread his Gospel message of love and hope, not fear, ridicule or condemnation. Thank you for your post. It comes to me at a time when I struggle against physical problems but strengthens me with the knowledge that no matter what befalls me in this physical and mortal world that it does not matter and that my immortal fate is secured by my complete faith in him and that he is in control and shall meet all of my needs with his everlasting love for ever and ever. It is that faith, or hope if you will, that makes us alive as without it we die the ever lasting death after the second resurrection after the thousand years following the first resurrection, also known as the second death when sin and death are completely destroyed.

  • Raging Bee

    That’s just your opinion of “the truth,” and you have absolutely ZERO evidence to back it up. You’re just another chest-pounding buffoon spouting ignorant crap and pretending it makes you “tough.”

  • Dragoness Eclectic

    Oh, sorry, I thought I was debating a person, not a Russian troll bot.

  • Seeker

    So what you are telling me is that Jesus’ blood was not a complete exhortation/propitiation/payment for sins of the individual believer and someone must work thru prayer to save the person from sheol? I though Jesus was the total payment for the sins of all of mankind who chose him as a the “propitiation” for their sins and now you’re telling me Jesus was a ‘semi’ or ‘half’ qualified sacrafice – savior. WOW! I guess I need to make an advanced payment to the catholic priests to pray for me after death, to lessen my time in purgatory’, because ‘grace’ alone is no longer adequate as given by God “to him that believes” and requires ‘works’ of priests to get the job done.
    You failed to tell us IF a person who throws themselves onto a grenade (commits suicide) to save fellow soldiers from harm, is sent to sheol? Or similar feats of ‘self-sacrafice’ to save others – which amounts to suicide.
    You also seem to think the individual does not have ‘free will’ to decide to return their life back to the Giver of Life? While I don’t agree with suicide, I see no Biblical references that indicate suicide equals sheol.
    In the case of this young man, I believe he is guilty of bad judgement/choices in that he allowed the thoughts/opinions/comments of others to influence his value on this earth. Perhaps that is the result of the feminezation of America where manhood is demeaned and young men are told they need to be more sensitive and get in touch with their ‘feminine’ side. No, I don’t mean to say men should be bully’s, rude to women or abusive – but their purpose is a ‘provider’, ‘hunter/gatherer’ and the woman is the ‘nurturer’ of the family unit. I guess that’s what happens when government has replaced the man in the house with a welfare check and made him immaterial to the ‘family’ unit.

  • Raging Bee

    I spent many years studying and observing “communism,” and I see you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. So stop pounding your chest and pretending you have any authority — you’re not fooling anyone.

  • Nirst Fame

    I would like to revive some of the my once favorite meals, but unlike cows, I don’t see chewing my own cod as desirable either. Perhaps my next meal is my best hope of something better. Revivle gets you vombies some times.

  • Freeland_Dave

    The only thing I disagree with in your statement is your reference to the taking of anther’s life. In that all life, mortal and eternal, is a gift from God that life belongs to Him. Ergo when you take your own life you are taking away a life that is not yours to take. It’s His life to give and take and not ours. He decides on the individual heart to determine who lives and who is destroyed for His reasons and His reasons alone. It is not up to man to determine the fate of others even though when the books are unsealed all who remain will be in complete agreement that his decisions are correct, fair and merciful. God’s Word is replete with this message over and over and is not contradictory. What it has become today is confusing by the hand of Satan as men listen to other men to tell them and explain what it all means instead of listening to it speak to them through the murmurings of the Holy Spirit to their hearts/minds.Without the ministry of the Holy Spirit the words become confounded and confused and man has no hope of understanding them. So we banter about the words of men who are just as confused as the rest and accomplish nothing of significance. .

  • Seeker

    God’s word stands forever but you are temporary and of limited intellect – unless you can tell us – where did the world come from? Why doesn’t the air on this earth get sucked out into the vacuum of outer space? After all these years, why doesn’t the moon get sucked into colliding with the earth and why does the earth continue to spin at the same rpm’s as a million years ago? How does a rain cloud, which is air, contain tons of water?
    Then maybe you can tell me what is the spark of life and where does it come from? How can some combination of chemicals become a living person who begins to rot when that life spark leaves the body? Why does certain cells become bone and others nerves or hair or blood. How does a cow eat green grass pass yellow urine, pass brown waste, give white milk and bleed red blood – all from the same body?
    Until you can answer those questions and a billion more – your limited reasoning is irrelevant.

  • Seeker

    “Dark ages” would be ‘you’ personal ‘opinion’ now wouldn’t it – using your limited senses, knowledge and reasoning. So maybe we are in “dark ages” even with computers to ‘make us smart’ because we have people killing each other every minute, wars being fought, sickness and starvation – which tells me, maybe were are still not quite as ‘educated’ as we ‘think’ we are.
    But I’ll give you another thought – when you were in your mother’s womb, how much of the world did you know about? Didn’t you have to be born into a world of harsh noise, temperature fluctuations, pain and injury – to come to know as much as you do now? How much more will you know in the life to come – which you have not yet seen? Or is this life the only thing you have to look forward to?

  • GregGrimer

    I have success to back it up.

    Large successful family, good job, happy marriage and 6 children none of whom have committed suicide or are godless fools like you.

    “By their fruits you shall know them”. My fruits are better than yours or these asshole apostate snowflake parents.

  • Raging Bee

    No one in your family killed themselves? That’s all the “success” you can brag about? There’s PLENTY of families, of ALL persuasions and cultures, who have achieved results equal to yours, with and without the stupid blustering fake-authority. Go to bed, boy, you ain’t all that.

  • Raging Bee

    A young person would almost surely be more easily persuaded by someone who DIDN’T call them a fool.

  • Seeker

    Then you are a God denier and it calls you a fool. It also say You are most miserable because you have no hope and you are one breath away from extinction – so live it up, enjoy the day – it will have to last you a billion years or so in darkness. And after a million billion trillion years….will you still be saying to yourself “If only I had done things differently”

  • Your inability to understand physics, chemistry and biology is insufficient to make your imaginary friend real, Seeker. It also gives me another reason to aspire to be as unlike you as possible, as people who ask science questions and can’t be bothered to actually study science are just lazy louts.

    Your god’s word is a relatively recent invention of humans, coming first from an oral tradition and then codified in writing. It is also a finite future resource. In approximately five billion years, when the Earth will be swallowed by the expansion of the sun into a red giant, any traces of civilization will be wiped out. If humans haven’t populated other star systems by that time, the Bible will simply vanish from the universe forever.

  • Your fate is identical to mine, Seeker. At the moment of your death you will simply experience shutdown of your neurological system and literally everything you believe will be gone.

    You shall never see heaven.

    In the unlikely chance that a hell exists, I choose to go there of my own accord to minister to the prisoners of the infinitely evil god that would imprison them there. Only a fucking coward would let Jesus die in his place to avoid paying his own debts — and in fact, I see the Sinner’s Prayer as the real “mark of the Beast.” To accept substitutionary atonement is to fail the test of maturity and humanity.

  • Seeker

    Then enjoy….if you can

  • Seeker

    A lot of opinion and name calling but no ‘facts’ or ‘answers’ – which I’ll contribute to your ‘ignorance’ of the topics.

  • I do enjoy life — very, very much. It is valuable to me precisely because of its finite nature, not in spite of it.

    The idea of eternal life, even in a paradise, makes my skin crawl. Imagine being trapped somewhere forever and never being able to get to “the point of it all,” constrained by the will of a more powerful being that will not even grant you the peace of death.

  • I am under no obligation to educate you, Seeker. Given your mythological mindset, the best I could hope for is for you to totally ignore any scientific information and just bleat “Goddidit.”

    Do your own fucking research if you really want to know.

  • pjdjmj

    The only thought you had was that the Priest made up the Ten Commandments not God. The Priest’s job is to teach God’s word., which he did. God’s word, obviously, does not compute in your sorry mind.

  • pjdjmj

    Get off the dope and save what is left of your sorry mind.

  • Raging Bee

    Can you prove any gods exist, or not?

  • Raging Bee

    Um, no, understanding someone was killing himself rather than endure deterioration of body and mind, is not even remotely similar to ‘he thought it was “really quite all right.”‘

    Your refusal to honestly listen to other people’s feelings about such issues — let alone actually understand them — is really stupid, and insultingly useless.

  • EllyR

    It is your choice to feel superior and condescending. That is all you and your ilk can do. You are deluded and believe in imaginary things that were never proven. Try to break free and enjoy this life, there is no other.

  • EllyR

    There are no gods and therefore no god’s words. Every “holy” mythology was written by humans for other humans with the purpose of controlling them. You seem to be under such control so they did a good job. If you really “seek” answers to all your questions, learn. Most of your questions have proven scientific answers. Some don’t. Lack of knowledge does not automatically imply the existence of gods. Your reasoning is not limited, it just does not exist like your pathetic superstitious gods…

  • EllyR

    It is not, unless you consider Karl Marx a god. In any case, they were very anti religion and I like that.

  • catphish

    IF you are mental…

  • catphish

    yes, if they truly repent…

  • Greg G

    So you wouldn’t consider the way North Koreans or Maoists behaved religious?

    Were those leaders not treated as gods?

  • Raging Bee

    Basically it was the only deterrent the Church had back then. If your only tool is a hammer…

  • Raging Bee

    Exactly: the people who may have driven him to suicide can be forgiven, but he himself cannot. (Subject to change without notice, as later bits of this priest’s homily attest…)

  • Mythblaster

    You are correct, but… intelligence has little if anything to do with it. What the priest lacked was compassion and any evidence of basic decency or humanity…

    Shame on him!

  • EllyR

    Absolutely not. I see a very big difference between a physical person revered as a god and an imaginary entity revered as if it existed.

  • Lurker111

    I agree with you, except I would replace “Father” with “Asshole”.

  • Lurker111

    I saw a similar thing at a Christmas Pageant, with skits and dances by the church kids, that my wife dragged me to at her church. (I despise religion because of all the damage that it does. Wife suspects that I’m an atheist but I’ve never acceded.) But back to the story:

    In the middle of the proceedings, a church elder asks to speak, and was given the floor–because he’s an elder, right?–and goes on for ten minutes about the evils of homosexuality. It was all I could do not to stand up and say, “It’s a f**king Christmas Pageant, asshole! Sit the hell down!”

    Religion even poisons religion.

    Note that my opinions on the anti-gay rant and the use of children in scripted propaganda are beyond the scope of this post.

  • Lurker111

    Sorry. Trying to apologetics transubstantiation is equivalent to a term we used in business when the boss demanded we do useless work and make it shine: polishing turds.

  • Lurker111

    But not the Russian Orthodox Church–an opportunity that Stalin missed. This evil bunch has way too much sway in current-day Russia, and not for the better.

  • Raging Bee

    That too.

  • Courtney Hepton

    When you subscribe to that book you are susceptible to it’s words. It says a lot of terrible things that people perceive as the literal word of God. That’s a huge problem because it sentences really immoral consequences for people’s actions. We don’t need those books people. The world is beautiful and confusing enough.

  • Seeker

    Second attempt to justify your ‘faith’ in nothing, without offering any proof of what you believe, or reason to agree with what you believe. Only more mud slinging/name calling/berating to make me run away and keep quiet about that which you know in your heart is right. That’s ‘why’ you feel the need to protest so much – guilt.
    Since you don’t want to recognize God’s law, you ‘feel’ free to do just about anything you want (and probably do) which gives you such sadness because you know it’s wrong in rebelling against God.
    I’ll offer you a third chance to explain any of my questions.

  • Seeker

    Complain to Him that made you, because I cannot change His creation or purpose. Nor can you and you do well to fear an eternity in someplace where you have no hope of things ever changing. I’m sure you were very happy in your mother’s womb – then you were born and discovered much beauty & happiness. What will you find in your next phase of your existence – that’s is your insecurity and fear which you are but one breath away from.

  • Seeker

    Your words display your misery.

  • No, I’m just being realistic. I accept death fully and completely. That enables me to enjoy the here-and-now to an exquisite degree that you probably are not capable of appreciating.

    But why am I telling you this? As a Christian, presumably you see the world as fallen and humanity as evil. How can you possibly enjoy anything at all with such a mindset?

  • Complain to your imaginary fiend? You first. Complain to Gandalf the White that he would look better in blue robes. Complain to Bugs Bunny that he’s being too mean to Elmer Fudd.

    As for your hellfire threat, may you experience the fear that you are trying to inflict upon me and others, and may it destroy every vestige of joy in your lifetime until you are prepared to apologize unreservedly to everyone you have threatened.

  • It is impossible to rebel against an imaginary god. Imaginary gods have no laws to recognize.

    Oh, and you are also guilty of slander against my character. Give up the mind-reading gig, because you’re not very good at it.

    Go Google the answers to your questions, if you actually want to know. Experience has taught me that you and other preachy Bible-bots don’t actually appreciate the research that any of us do for you, and many of you are so poorly educated in science that you can’t even understand what we’re telling you.

  • Seeker

    Strike Three! and you’re outta here – because you failed to answer one single question, continue to throw mud, name call and obfuscate.
    And I did not “slander” your disbelief – God did in His written word!

  • Tommy

    Well there is this one that appears to have no “Do overs” – Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. >>But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. The Holy Spirit definitely holds a grudge.

    I am sure you will twist and contort what these verses mean so they make supposed semblance of sense, which it will not. Such a strange god the Christian God. It offers no testable verifiable proof, only a hodge-podge of writings jumbled together from the Bronze Age written exactly as men would have written in that time. From this you are to have faith that you are lost with absolutely no chance of being saved unless you believe Jesus died for your sins. There has never been one supernatural event ever documented or recorded, only written about by men thousands of years ago. You would think an all powerful omniscient God could do one thing that would erase all doubt, but nothing. You would think it would provide something since if you do not believe the consequences are so dire. Damnation burning in hellfire for all eternity. Not 50, 100, 10,000 or one million years, but an eternity of torture. Why not just poof you out of existence? Why endless torture? Seems weird doesn’t it? If you were God would you set up this crazy scenario? In addition which religion is correct? They cannot all be. You better hope you were born in the correct country otherwise you may be screwed for a long time.

  • Seeker

    In ‘my’ mind – I think the verse means anyone who ‘denies the Holy Spirit exists’. So if one does not ‘believe in’ or ‘accept the existence’ of the Holy Spirit – then the Spirit does not enter the believer’s heart, which results in the exercise of free will and your conscience rejection of His offer of salvation.
    I suppose it’s all a matter of ‘faith’ – either you choose to believe the recorded events/miracles in the Bible or not. Many archaeological digs have proven it accurate about past lost civilizations/peoples mentioned in the Bible. How much can a creature know of his creator?

  • Raging Bee

    It also say You are most miserable because you have no hope and you are one breath away from extinction…

    In that case, it also wrong.

  • Raging Bee

    Is that anything like the insecurity and fear that makes you hide your past comments?

  • Dragoness Eclectic

    Get thee behind me, Satan! You are not trying to instruct, you’re only spreading division and hatred, like your father the devil.

  • Raging Bee

    “Teaching God’s Word” is nowhere near as easy a job as you seem to think it is. AS JESUS HIMSELF SHOWED BY HIS OWN ACTIONS, you don’t just quote rules and Bible verses, you have to use empathy and judgment (you know, that big brain God gave us?) to APPLY the principles to people’s lives. This priest failed miserably at it, probably because he doesn’t have the required skills; and you can’t understand why he was a failure, most likely because you don’t have the skills either, and just want to lord it over others without earning the authority to do so.

  • Seeker: “And I did not “slander” your disbelief – God did in His written word!”

    Your imaginary god is a slanderer? Congratulations, Seeker — Thanks to the silly theology known as “the Trinity,” you have just now called the Holy Spirit a slanderer, committed the Unforgivable Sin, and lost your salvation forever.

    Looks like you’re coming to {nonexistent} hell with me. Don’t forget to pack your toothbrush. 😀

  • Raging Bee

    How is that “lucky” for him?

  • Seeker is a Dunning-Kruger poster child, and also afflicted with a chronic case of Not Even Wrong.

  • pjdjmj

    Comprehending The Ten Commandments, in this case, No. 5,
    “Thou shalt not kill.” is obviously too much for your skills. I will pray for you, you poor ignorant thing.

  • Tommy

    I would have to disagree. It seems pretty specific and does not say anyone that just ‘denies the Holy Spirit’, “But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven…,…anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven” Definition of blasphemy 1a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God. Seems like “one and done” to me.

    I would not deny there are archaeological finds that prove people existed in the Bronze Age, but that is a long leap to supernatural miracles. There is proof the Greeks existed too, but that does not make me believe Zeus sits atop Mount Olympus. How much can a creature know of his creator? I guess as much as the creator wants to known which is not very much, unless you go back 3 or 4 thousand years then he popped up all the time doing all kinds of miracles. So it’s not that he can’t be known it’s either he chooses not to be or more likely he is not real.

  • pjdjmj

    It is astonishing that you or anyone could be so ignorant. Try to comprehend The Ten Commandments, No. 5, “Thou shalt not kill.” …

  • Raging Bee

    What, now you’re down to picking Bible verses at random and just baldly asserting we don’t understand them? Thanks for proving my point. You’re just too ignorant and childish to be worth any more of my time. Buh-bye.

  • pjdjmj

    Raging Bee Brain, figured you could not comprehend The Ten Commandments.

  • So what part of “thou shalt not kill” does Biblegod not understand? I seem to remember a rather sordid Bible incident involving a lot of drowned people and animals…

  • Profanity does not invalidate the actual facts in an argument. Dragoness is absolutely correct in that the Roman Church is a primitive organization.

  • No one is “saved.” That’s just a silly myth that people are told to keep them from living this life to the fullest, and to get them to waste time, money and emotional energy in service of religious organizations.

    Everyone dies. No one comes back to life, unless their body gets recycled into the bodies of other living organisms. Simple as that.

  • Raging Bee

    So this priest splits the difference and give us unpleasant nonsense?

  • EllyR

    I said, as much as they could…

  • Raging Bee

    Repetitive troll is Repetitive troll is Repetitive troll is…

    …flagged.

  • pjdjmj

    So that is the newest alibi for your stupidity is calling someone a Russian troll. Unbelievably insipid. You have to wear velcro don’t you as tying your shoes is beyond your mental capability.

  • Seeker

    Okay, using your definition – isn’t someone who denies God exists, says they don’t believe and refuse to worship or call upon Him equal to “lack of reverence for God”? Isn’t that “contempt”?
    In Judaic law – there was no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood – so they had animal sacrifices and blood was thrown on the alter. Were there any sins not covered by the blood? No, all sins were forgiven – temporarily – until the person left the temple area and sinned again, which required another sacrifice. Jesus was to be the fulfillment of a one-time sacrifice, for all people who would believe in Him, for all time. One High Priest, One Mediator, One Propitiation for sins. “For by grace have you been saved and not good works so no man can boast, it is the gift of God” – Which means my salvation is not based on how good I am, how many good deeds I perform, now many priests pray for me, or having to ‘earn’ forgiveness in purgatory. “And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Joel 2:32, “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” Genesis 15:6, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham” Galatians 3:6, “but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead” Romans 4:24 – Follow the ‘theme’ of ‘believing’ or having ‘faith’ – not taking one word “blasphemy” which may or may not be translated/used accurately in one passage. If Jesus’ blood did not cover ALL sins, then it was not an adequate sacrifice. Therefore, I think it means the sin of ‘non-belief’ ‘in’ the Holy Spirit and not a simple curse which may have been said in the heat of the moment.
    There are numerous non-religious persons who recorded the existence of Jesus during that day and his execution. I wonder how you would (if you were God) determine ‘whom’ is worthy of saving? How would you ‘judge’ the quality of the individual unless you put them under stress to see how they handle it. Just as gold is heated to separate the impurities, without the heat, it’s not ‘pure’ gold and not malleable to form into something of beauty. But I suppose it all boils down to a matter of ‘faith’ – either you have it or you have no hope.

  • Seeker

    Thank God that my salvation is not based on my efforts/good works/performance – “For by GRACE have you been SAVED thru FAITH and NOT OF WORKS least any man should boast, it is the GIFT of God” Ephesians 2:8
    Doesn’t water exist in three separate states of matter?
    It can be frozen
    It can be wet/liquid
    It can be a gas/cloud
    So water can be a “trinity”.
    Aren’t you a ‘trinity’ of sorts? You are an individual but contain the genes of your mother/father.
    Either Jesus’ blood was a total sacrifice for ALL sins for ALL eternity for ALL persons who believe in Him or it is not sufficient/inadequate/less than worthy of payment for sins.
    I can only give you the facts. It is up to the Holy Spirit to move upon your soul to make them real to you. I cannot ‘make’ you believe, nor will God, because He gives you the ‘freedom of choice’ to reject Him and that is the ‘ultimate unforgivable sin’ – the sin of unbelief and rejection.

  • Your so-called “facts” are just mythological bafflegab that you were unfortunate enough to swallow hook, line and sinker.

    I reject the alleged sacrifice of Jesus unconditionally. I reject your mythology unconditionally. There is literally nothing you can do to turn me to the darkness of ChristInsanity. As for your god’s evil little sock puppet the Holy Spook, it can get stuffed.

  • barriejohn

    There are numerous non-religious persons who recorded the existence of Jesus during that day and his execution.

    Really? Care to name a few? (Please don’t include Josephus, whose two references are extremely dodgy.) Looking at the bilge you post here, I am left bewildered that you would choose “Seeker” as the username of someone with such a closed mind. I can hardly think of a more inappropriate moniker!

  • Seeker

    I’ll bet you consider Josephus accurate on other things but not about Jesus?
    Tacitus
    Thallus (52AD)
    Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
    Phlegon (80-140AD)
    https://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/
    But you probably won’t accept this as ‘truth/accurate’ either non-believer/denier. I don’t really care of ‘your’ opinion of me, because it does not matter one wit towards anything of importance.

  • Tommy

    As usual in these discussions your side picks and chooses parts to make your point. The entirety of the verses are:

    “Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

    The point I was making is there is a very clear distinction that you can speak words against Jesus all you want and get forgiven, but if you speak words against the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven, ever. (Big Period) No matter your interpretation of blasphemy, you get forgiven for one, but not the other. Then your brought up another point that always made me scratch my head. Before Jesus’ sacrifice they had to kill a chicken, lamb or something and spread the blood on the altar in order to get forgiveness and as you stated that was good until they left the temple and sinned again which, as you know, would probably be in the first 10 seconds or less after they were cleansed. A sin is a sin in the eyes of God no matter how small. So the person leaves the altar and gets run over by a runaway horse and killed. He has sinned, there’s no Jesus yet so that soul heads straight to eternal hellfire. There would be a lot of people that would fall into this category. What about all those that lived before Jesus’ Get out of Hell Card? I am sure you will quote a bunch of verses like Romans where he knew you before you were born, God’s sovereignty and such, but seems like a pretty whacky system.

    Seems to me the logical conclusion is there is the Old Testament with the religious practices of the time, then there was a new spin on religion that developed either by a new preacher named Jesus, maybe real or maybe not, that streamlined, tidied up, and repackaged into a much more marketable religion whose core was converting more people that has obviously been very successful in expanding the cult.

  • Seeker

    The Old Testament saints were apparently covered under the belief system and Jesus took them to heaven during His time in the tomb when he descended into Sheol to collect them. Jesus was the foreshadow of the perfect sacrifice to cover all sins for all time – to those who believed in him.
    You must be a very sad person and without any hope.

  • Tommy

    “Apparently” yet another contorted solution to cover ridiculous stories.

    As for my happiness you could not be more wrong. I am happier now than I have ever been as a believer. I grew up Christian in a small Methodist church in Mississippi, was baptized in a lake around 13 and was a Christian and staunch Republican, in adulthood, until 2012 when Obama won his second term. I could not believe he won again and by a huge margin. I had an epiphany. How could all those millions of people not see what I see? Am I so sure I am correct, and they are all wrong? So that began me questioning what I believe. It started with me really researching the other side and their views, but in doing so caused me to question other strongly held beliefs. For example, evolution. I had always thought evolution was ridiculous and without really understanding evolution it seems impossible. The old standbys believers use like, “The blind watchmaker” argument was enough for me to say, “see evolution is impossible. There must be a designer”, but a funny thing happens when you throw out your assumptions and really study to understand an argument, you realize you do not know as much as you thought you did. After reading tons of books and listening to many podcasts I understood evolution and that it absolutely explains how life evolved on this planet with hard evidence to prove it, not just stories. Anyway, that led me to question everything else since if life formed and evolved by natural not supernatural means what about other parts of the supernatural. Again, many books and podcasts later “Both sides” I came to the conclusion that natural laws are far more plausible than any supernatural explanations. Crazy thing is in an effort to understand and research I learned far more of the Bible than when I was Christian. Don’t get me wrong it was scary to slowly realize this is probably it. There is probably just one life and afterwards nothing, but it also makes me really appreciate this life and this world. To try to do good things, help people, care about the planet and live life to the fullest. I am a much happier and content person now than when I thought there was some kind of after-life waiting for me after death to be judged and receive an eternity of bliss or eternal hellfire and torture. Think about it, you are absolutely sure you picked the correct religion, probably based on where you were born, and all the others are wrong, they burn, and you don’t. What if they picked the correct one and you did not? I am sure they are just as convinced as you are that they are correct. That’s a lot of pressure to go through life waiting to see if you chose wisely.

  • Seeker

    So you’re a product of the ‘Method – ist’ branch of ‘religion’ where ‘methods’ are more important than actual faith.
    Show me some of that evolution ‘evidence’ of fish with legs, birds without wings, horses with hands, or anything that one species ‘evolved’ into something else. All I see from bone/fossil records are separate and distinct species. If man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? I wonder ‘who’ made the first building blocks of the universe, or who lit the big bang fuse. I wonder how order comes from disorder – kinda like a tornado going thru a junk yard enough times until it eventually builds a jet capable of flight – given enough time of course.

  • Tommy

    Lol! I am beginning to think you are a Troll with all those one liners. Never heard the Methodist jab before which seems contrived. I ended up Presbyterian later in life so not sure if that religion would qualify as a good one :-).

    Yep, I have heard all those “gothca” evolution arguments before and they make sense on the surface if you dare not look beneath. You are as I was at one time and have no understanding of evolution based on your examples. If you were to honestly try to study and understand evolution you would soon realize how ridiculous those arguments are, but I suspect you will not for fear your faith would be challenged. I am not going to try and debunk all your examples in this post since I think I would be wasting my time. If you really would like to research and understand I would be glad to answer some of your examples or give you links to resources.

  • Seeker

    Oh no! Not the gay marriage performers – press-by-terians – the first cousins of chaos-tic’s papal worshipers? 🙂
    How bout you just focus on them baptizers, like John the Baptist – i.e. saved by grace thru Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins – not good works, priests prayers, dead saints body parts, holy water, or men in funny hats and skirts. Jesus was/is the author and finisher of your faith, the One High Priest, One Intercessor between us and God, One Propitiation for our sins and One Savior – not on men, religious systems, ceremonies but the Word of God.
    I’m just asking for ‘evidence’ in evolution which would give credence to what your ‘theory’ is and why I would consider it ‘possible’. I haven’t seen any thru fossils or petrified bones (after “looking beneath” the sands of time) or changing/mutating species of today. Did you know the author of evolution eventually converted to Christianity & said his theory was wrong? I try to use logic, reason, evidence, probabilities in my thought process when trying to decide ‘what’ to believe in.

  • Tommy

    Wow! You are really fixated on picking the correct denomination. Like I said, better hope you choose wisely. To set the record straight and since this seems to be a big thing with you the last 15+ years I went to church I was a member of a Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) and since you seem to know your denominations you should know this is not Presbyterian USA. The PCA believes the Bible is the inerrant word of God, they believe in God’s total sovereignty and because of that he knew if you were saved or not before you even existed. Oh, and no gay or women pastors. Looking back being part of a club such as this is, by far, not my proudest time.

    There is an unbelievable amount of evidence proving evolution if you take the time to really read and study instead of only listening to the Christian apologists. It is probably one of the most hard evidence supported theories in science, but you can NOT understand it by applying your own uninformed ideas. You must study and read what evolutionary scientists have written and supported with evidence. I know I am wasting my time trying to convince you, but I will leave you with answers to your previous post. “If humans came from apes, why are there still apes?” Humans did not come from apes. Humans share a linage, a common ancestor with apes on the same branch of the evolutionary tree. That is why 96% of our DNA is exactly the same as apes. Think of it this way, I would assume you believe that the domestic dog evolved from wolves. This was done by humans doing selective breeding to emphasize a specific trait. There was not a mutation one day and out popped a Chihuahua from a wolf. It was done by humans in a relatively short time, in evolutionary terms. No matter how hard you tried you would could never breed a wolf into a squirrel or fish because they are two different species. This is another classic people like Ray Comfort love to use, “Show me a fossil record of a fish with wings!” (No scientist ever said it happened) or “There are no transitional fossils!” (Lie). There is no evolution from one species to another in the same evolutionary period and no one that understands evolution would say that there was, but there is plenty of evidence that over millions and millions of years a species can change drastically and can branch off to become something else altogether and eventually a different species. Also keep in mind while there are tons of evidence supporting evolution, there is not so much on how life began. That is still a mystery. There are a lot of hypotheses and speculation, but that was a long, long time ago. I have come to understand that is the great thing about how science works, it is okay to say you do not know. You can keep trying to discover, learn, test, and experiment, but we may never know how life began and that is okay.

    Charles Darwin did not convert to Christianity or rebuke his theory on his deathbed. That is a tired lie that is repeated over and over. Do just a modicum of research outside your bubble and you will see that is not true. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/charles-darwin-confessions/

  • firebubbles310

    Suicide rates have risen likely because of the cost of mental health. In the US at least it doesn’t have to be covered by insurance and paying out of pocket will cost more than a car note.

    Also number of secular hospitals are decreasing because the Church is buying them up. Which makes things even worse. Religion does a terrible job with mental health, women’s health and more, especially Catholicism.

  • Hell is a myth, Greg. There is no credible evidence for it.

    For threatening people with hellfire, I think you should have a few weeks of horrible nightmares where you see yourself and your most precious loved ones being tortured by your “loving” god.

  • pjdjmj

    Utter nonsense. As usual, anti-Catholic bigots have to put in a smear. Years ago the MSM did not report suicides at all as it is a copy-cat crime, especially with the easily led. Try to comprehend The Ten Commandments…not made up by the Catholic religion,

  • barriejohn

    And isn’t humility a Christian virtue? LMFAO!

  • barriejohn

    LMFAO. None of the writers whom you reference recorded these events at the time that they supposedly occurred. All were writing (what a coincidence!) at the time that the many gospels and epistles were being written, most of which were deemed not to have been “inspired” for some reason. Don’t you consider it rather strange that no one made a record of all the teachings of Jesus during his ministry, especially when they were accompanied by such extraordinary miracles (even raising people from the dead)? The scribes of Qumran seem to have produced mountains of literature (Dead Sea Scrolls) at around the same time, much of it (coincidentally, again?) very similar indeed to what Jesus was saying. But then, if his disciples really were Galilean fisherman they would have been illiterate, wouldn’t they, and incapable of writing the Gospels?

    https://www.alternet.org/belief/5-reasons-suspect-jesus-never-existed

  • barriejohn

    There are now many who doubt the existence of not only Jesus but Paul as well. After devoting literally hundreds of hours to attempts at “harmonising” the gospel stories and accounts of Paul’s life in the Acts and Epistles, I do sympathise with them. However, in my opinion, although it is possible that Paul was a real person who invented the Jesus myth to support his new faith, it seems to me much more likely that Jesus was the real person and that later Christian factions invented Paul, with his “heavenly revelations” and much more “spiritual” Jesus, to make this Jewish Messiah more acceptable to gentiles and gnostics. This goes some way to explaining the absence of quotations from Jesus in the Epistles, or even references to anything recorded in the Gospels. It’s a fascinating subject for any true seekers after the truth out there, and there’s plenty of food for thought on this site:

    http://jesusneverexisted.com/

  • Seeker

    Just as I predicted – denial.
    Even knee shall bend and everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord.

  • Tommy

    Wow! You are really fixated on picking the correct denomination. Like I said, better hope you choose wisely. To set the record straight and since this seems to be a big thing with you the last 15+ years I went to church I was a member of a Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) and since you seem to know your denominations you should know this is not Presbyterian USA. The PCA believes the Bible is the inerrant word of God, they believe in God’s total sovereignty and because of that he knew if you were saved or not before you even existed. Oh, and no gay or women pastors. Looking back being part of a club such as this is, by far, not my proudest time.

    There is an unbelievable amount of evidence proving evolution if you take the time to really read and study instead of only listening to the Christian apologists. It is probably one of the most hard evidence supported theories in science, but you can NOT understand it by applying your own uninformed ideas. You must study and read what evolutionary scientists have written and supported with evidence. I know I am wasting my time trying to convince you, but I will leave you with answers to your previous post. “If humans came from apes, why are there still apes?” Humans did not come from apes. Humans share a linage, a common ancestor with apes on the same branch of the evolutionary tree. That is why 96% of our DNA is exactly the same as apes. Think of it this way, I would assume you believe that the domestic dog evolved from wolves. This was done by humans doing selective breeding to emphasize a specific trait. There was not a mutation one day and out popped a Chihuahua from a wolf. It was done by humans in a relatively short time, in evolutionary terms. No matter how hard you tried you would could never breed a wolf into a squirrel or fish because they are two different species. This is another classic people like Ray Comfort love to use, “Show me a fossil record of a fish with wings!” (No scientist ever said it happened) or “There are no transitional fossils!” (Lie). There is no evolution from one species to another in the same evolutionary period and no one that understands evolution would say that there was, but there is plenty of evidence that over millions and millions of years a species can change drastically and can branch off to become something else altogether and eventually a different species. Also keep in mind while there are tons of evidence supporting evolution, there is not so much on how life began. That is still a mystery. There are a lot of hypotheses and speculation, but that was a long, long time ago. I have come to understand that is the great thing about how science works, it is okay to say you do not know. You can keep trying to discover, learn, test, and experiment, but we may never know how life began and that is okay.

    Charles Darwin did not convert to Christianity or rebuke his theory on his deathbed. That is a tired lie that is repeated over and over. Do just a modicum of research outside your bubble and you will see that is not true. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/charles-darwin-confessions/

    If you ever want to broaden your knowledge and understanding of the world outside your echo chamber and learn how science works I would suggest starting with this book by Bill Bryson A Short History of Nearly Everything https://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/076790818X

    Happy Holidays!

  • barriejohn

    You provided the dates yourself; none of those writers were contemporary with Jesus (if he lived when Christians claim that he did). I don’t agree with all that Bart Ehrman says, but on factual matters I would be loathe to contradict him!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

  • Seeker

    Merry Christ mas!

  • barriejohn

    It’s Yule Tide!

  • Raging Bee

    Yeah, they LOVE to brag about their humility.

  • barriejohn
  • barriejohn

    An interesting article re the existence of Jesus posted yesterday by Jerry Coyne:

    https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/12/24/more-proof-that-jesus-existed/

  • alantharvey important

  • al kimeea

    Convinced me to read the holey book to see if there’s anything to all the rumpus.

  • alkimeea ):

  • red_speck already read

  • al kimeea

    ??

  • kerryberger

    Another reason why the Roman Catholic Church from top to bottom has no clue as to what the other side is doing. Organized religion is a waste of time and our resources. This kind of behavior at the funeral is unconscionable and the priest should be FIRED!

  • Katherine McChesney

    And your priests fuck your children and you don’t give a damn.

  • pjdjmj

    You are so dirty. Can’t call you a pig because it would insult pigs.