Muslim parents withdraw 600 kids as school’s sex-ed row escalates

Muslim parents withdraw 600 kids as school’s sex-ed row escalates March 4, 2019

Parkfield Community School in Birmingham has reportedly lost around 80 percent of its pupils because Muslim parents don’t want their kids to be exposed to gay relationships.

Trouble began, as we earlier reported, with the introduction of a “No Outsiders” programme run alongside sex and relationship education (SRE) lessons.

Image via YouTube

Designed to promote inclusiveness, the programme was branded as “gay lifestyle indoctrination” by the ringleader of the protesting parents, Fatima Shah above.

Something called the Alum Rock Community Forum revealed that the children have been pulled from classes over the school’s:

Undermining of parental rights and aggressively promoting homosexuality.

The No Outsiders programme was started by the school’s highly acclaimed assistant head teacher Andrew Moffat, who happens to be gay.

One angry father Abdul Ma, 46, said:

This is a brainwash. We bring our children here so they can later work as a solicitor or a teacher, not to be taught about being gay or a lesbian.

Razina Mahmood, 40 added:

This is nothing but indoctrination of our children. You are using our children as an experiment.

Amanda Spielman, Chief Inspector of Ofsted, previously explained how it is vital children know about:

Families that have two mummies or two daddies.

The Ofsted head has condemned the dozens of parents who have been picketing outside Parkfield Community School in Saltley in recent weeks against the No Outsiders programme.

Image via YouTube

Moffat, above, previously said he felt threatened by actions outside of the school gates.

Spielman, in light of angry protests said of the programme:

It’s about making sure that children who do happen to realise that they themselves may not fit a conventional pattern know that they’re not bad, they’re not ill.

And, at the end of the day, it’s something that the vast majority of faith schools, even those which clearly teach that homosexuality is not right in their faith, still manage to do in a sensitive and careful way that absolutely does fulfil the law and we report on that very regularly in our inspection reports.

Meanwhile, it’s reported from Nottingham that an 11-year-old boy – Kian O’Keefe – is having trouble finding a place in three local schools because they are all faith-based – and his family aren’t religious.

Nick Lee, Director of Education at Nottingham City Council, said:

Ms O’Keefe applied for one school which is among the most over-subscribed in Nottingham and not local to her, and then three faith schools where it appears she did not provide sufficient evidence of her family’s religious beliefs.

While the city council administers the applications process, the academies have their own admission criteria and will make the final decision based on that.

We will now work with Ms O’Keefe over the coming weeks to find a suitable, alternative place for Kian to start in September.

H/T BarrieJohn (Nottingham report)

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Broga

    “Our school”. Were they funding the school? Or was it the taxpayers who include a hell of a lot more non muslims than muslims.

  • Illithid

    By the time I finished the story I thought it was likely set in the U.K., but had to check the first link to be sure. Though admittedly Birmingham, England is five times the population of Birmingham, Alabama.

  • Brummie

    This is a real test of our principals. If we back down or compromise on this it will be the beginning of sharia law for the UK. Those parents should now be prosecuted if they cannot quickly find alternative UK approved education for their youngsters.

  • Foxglove

    Well done, Muslims! There you are, a small and oft-maligned minority in Britain, wanting respect and freedom for yourselves–but then you turn on another small and oft-maligned minority.

    You need to help me out here, folks. Because I’m an atheist who strongly supports freedom of religion just like I support all other forms of freedom. And I can actually sympathize with religious people (of whatever brand) who find themselves a harassed minority in a given location, just as I can sympathize with any other harassed minority. And I certainly don’t go along with condemning Muslims as a group, any more than I go along with condemning any other group as a group. I believe in taking people as individuals. I believe in judging people on their individual merits.

    But what do you want from me, an LGBT person? Because when you’re asked to show me a bit of respect, 80% of you turn against me. You are making it harder for me to show you the respect that I’d be perfectly willing otherwise to show you.

  • Broga

    These Muslims seem to hold the arrogant assumption that all of us, including those who disagree with their insistence that their schools teach prejudice, must fund the teaching. They insist that our taxes pay for a teaching a prejudice which is antagonistic, violent and life threatening against those who pay for the schools. To add to the insult, and the contemptuous dismissal of other opinions, the teaching is medieval and irrational and contrary to civilised values and education.

    Michel de Montaigne, a much neglected but also much admired, French philosopher was born is 1533. He saw much of the torture and killing of those who strayed from the teaching of the Catholic Church and was on their Index of forbidden books.

    He wrote that it was “putting a very high price on one’s conjectures to have someone roasted on their account.”

    We don’t seem to have moved on as much as we think from those barbarous times.These Muslims seem to hold the arrogant assumption that all of us, including those who disagree with their insistence that their schools teach prejudice, must fund the teaching. They insist that our taxes pay for a teaching a prejudice which is antagonistic, violent and life threatening against those who pay for the schools. To add to the insult, and the contemptuous dismissal of other opinions, the teaching is medieval and irrational and contrary to civilised values and education.

    Michel de Montaigne, a much neglected but also much admired, French philosopher was born is 1533. He saw much of the torture and killing of those who strayed from the teaching of the Catholic Church and was on their Index of forbidden books.

    He wrote that it was “putting a very high price on one’s conjectures to have someone roasted on their account.”

    We don’t seem to have moved on as much as we think from those barbarous times.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    So they admit, “Yes, outsiders”?

    Shun! Shun! Shun the infidels!

  • barriejohn

    They’re going to win this. I’ve been watching the debates about it on the BBC Parliament Channel, and the odious DUP bigots, who’ve really got the bit between their teeth now due to the Brexit fiasco, are fully supporting the parents. They’re presenting it as a David and Goliath battle in which “the rights of the parents” are being trampled underfoot by an autocratic state. And being ever so understanding and conciliatory, and not in the least bit bigoted, of course, they are even claiming that there are better programmes than “No Outsiders” – as if that’s what the Muslims are after! I’m deeply depressed about the direction in which we are headed in this country now.

  • islandbrewer

    The irony in British Muslim immigrants and immigrant descendants objecting to a program called “No Outsiders” meaning to be inclusive of “others” is … I don’t know the appropriate word.

  • barriejohn

    Black Christians also have an appalling record when it comes to the rights of minorities like gays and lesbians. Irony isn’t the word for it!

  • sfmike

    Another example of the fact that when you scratch any “person of faith” you uncover a fascist that that hated democracy and the idea of equal protection under the law.

  • sfmike

    Christens are just as bad. We all need protection against people that insist that we all have to bend over backwards and financially support their imaginary gods and nonsensical bronze age moral and dress codes. Stay in Muslim lands if this culture is so important to your psychological well being and let the west move on to the 21st century instead of regressing to the 12th.

  • kerryberger

    Sex education is part of the Public Health understanding so kids are prepared to live and participate in US society as good citizens. Unfortunately, not unlike thee American Taliban of Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians, a group of irate Muslims is protesting the school curriculum because it talks matter of fact on the issue of gays, lesbians that are a major subset of American Society. I do not accept that religious liberty is allowed to interfere with public school curriculum particularly when said protesters are a statistical minority and in secular society we don’t enable or promote discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, gender, etc. If these parents are going to take their kids out of school, then they should pay for their own private schools as do some other religious groups do — Catholics, Jews, Protestants, etc. A tyranny of minorities complaining and whining about their dislikes in education is fine, but they do not have the right to impose their religious values and prejudices on the rest of this society. I support both freedom of and freedom from religion. What goes into our public school curriculum is for Secular life. In this country we respect and we expect others to respect that there is a separation of church and state. To be a good citizen is to accept and assimilate into this society. End of topic. I feel equally disturbed by other religious groups that spread ignorance about sexual education and are partially to blame for kids having unprotected sex and getting pregnant or contracting STDs or even HIV-AIDS. In all other societies that have strong programs for sex-education, the incidences of teen pregnancy, abortions, contraction of sexually transmitted diseases is far less than in the United States. It is unconscionable and even child abuse and parental negligence for parents to try to protect their offspring from learning the Facts of Life and how to be responsible and caring towards their boy and girl friends as well as future life partners.

  • EllyR

    Total idiots and primitives. Knowledge does not influence people to follow any path. I wonder where did the parents learn about LGBTQ? Did it turn them into one?

  • Fred Rickson

    So, Muslims can be as ignorant as Christians….what’s new about that?

  • Bob Pattinson

    Schools are there to educate not propagate and the simple truth – which religious nutters can’t seem to grasp -. is that no-one can be ‘turned’ gay.

  • Connie Beane

    A lot of the so-called “charter” schools in the U.S.–which are laboring mightily to get their hands on money appropriated for public schools–are prime examples of this 12th-century mindset. “It is my right to keep my children from being corrupted by modern society, and you must pay for me to do that!”

  • Beware: The mouse thinks the owl is misguided. The owl thinks the mouse is dinner. To permit what Allah forbids is as sinful as to forbid what Allah permits.

  • You import a culture with certain attitudes, you get a culture with certain attitudes. Why is anyone shocked?

  • huzonfurst

    As ugly as this might sound, they can always go back to where they came from and live under the Islamic paradise that they so crave!

  • I think it’s just religious dogma of any ilk that makes them ignorant. It seems that a prerequisite for the followers of any religion is that they must leave common sense, tolerance and love behind in order to embrace whatever version of hate is fed to them.

  • islandbrewer

    Right wing religious nuts come from many cultures, unfortunately.

  • Dhammarato

    This just shows how very Backward Muslims are, and they demand to stay foolish, backwards and anti-children. These fools are now doing the foolishness that Christians were doing 50 years ago. And oh! how backwards Christians are, and Poor Muslims are 50 years behind those how are also way behind. Clearly Religion destroys the brains of Humans, turning them into zombies, Christians and Muslims. All brain dead. How Brain dead? They support a criminal called trump.

  • Dhammarato

    the natural reality that you call Allah, Christians call god, and we do not call, we just laugh and enjoy, permits and does not forbid. Any things that you forbid is a sin on your part, not on those who do against your personal orders, no matter how deluded you are about allah, the universe includes and allows some very foolish folks, Some are so foolish that call reality allah and scream how great while they do all kinds of sin and horrible things. But these horrible things Muslims do are horrible only to humanity, to allah it is all good shit. .

  • Religion is the social cancer of the world . Like any other cancer the type must be determine and treated with the best social tools for that particular ism disease.

  • Right , there is only freedom FROM relgion!

  • Broga

    I don’t think that they are as foolish as that. Here, in the name of tolerance of minorities, they ( and I don’t mean all Muslims) can reject the values we cherish and take our taxes to fund the removal of these same values. Doesn’t the Koran say that stealing from those not of the faith is not only acceptable but to be encouraged? Or did I imagine that in a nightmare? If I did, I withdraw the remark.

  • P. McCoy

    I wish these Moslems were as outraged over their Prophet “marrying” a 7 or 9 year old child and having sex with her, as they are about learning about the challenges of LGBT Men, Women, Transgender and Children in a hostile society

  • CoastalMaineBird

    I’ve often wondered about what they call the “promotion” of homosexuality.
    The ONLY way I can make sense of it is convoluted:

    1… Deep down, the religious types KNOW that what they believe isn’t true. Youtuber “ProfMTH” cites a long running study about “cognitive dissonance management” where, when confronted with disconfirmation of some belief (for example, a prophecy that didn’t happen), religious believers (of all kinds) will deny and bend reality to their wishes. Jesus’ prophesied second coming didn’t happen as predicted, so they invent the resurrection to pretend that he’s not really dead – he’s just pining.

    2… Since they KNOW their beliefs aren’t true, they assume that they are chosen. They can bend their mind around a given set of requirements. They are vulnerable to influence from recruiters, advertisements, the marketing department.

    3… Since THEIR beliefs are chosen, then YOURS must be chosen too.

    4… Since YOUR beliefs are chosen, it’s just that you chose the “wrong” ones, and you can make a different choice.

    If somebody knows a better answer for why they think gayness can be “promoted” – I’d like to hear it.

  • Foxglove

    I don’t know about Muslim thinking, but I think with conservative Christian thinking, this is how it goes:

    I.
    (1) Being gay is a sin (by definition).
    (2) Sin is an exercise of free will, hence, a choice.
    (3) Hence, being gay is a choice.

    II.
    (1) God punishes sin.
    (2) God is just and therefore would never punish anybody unjustly.
    (3) Therefore, his punishment of gay people is just.

    I.e., they’ve painted themselves into a theological corner and this is how they resolve it. If being gay wasn’t a choice, God would be punishing gay people unjustly because he’d be punishing them for something they’re not responsible for, and God would never be unjust.

  • Bob Pattinson

    You’re right. They love to attack homosexuality as a “lifestyle choice” (like surfing or vegetarianism) and refuse to admit that some people are born gay and have every right to express who they are. The simple fact is we do not fit into their fairy tale. Deep down they know full well that it is religious belief which is the true “lifestyle choice.” But that won’t stop them from hating.

  • Broga

    We have a problem in that we still act within a civilised and rational context which rules out the bloody minded threats and refusal to debate which these Muslims use. The result is that we are challenging them not with one hand tied behind our backs but both and with a gag over our mouths. Should we, (I mean people not “of the faith” whether Muslim or Christian) stray outside the bounds enforced by religious politicians we will be held to account.

    Meanwhile “people of faith (whether Muslim or Christian) are allowed the most outrageous liberties and even have shed loads of money handed to them to support their pernicious behaviour by, as one example, forcing taxpayers to pay for their schools.

    Am I paranoid? Or is this a fair statement? My concern, sharing barriejohn’s pessimism is that when we wake up we will be too late.

  • Sau Peih

    Razina Mahmood, 40 added: This is nothing but indoctrination of our children.

    This from someone all too familiar with the indoctrination of children.

  • Mustafa Curtess

    Not that it is “better” but it must be understood that multiple respected studies indicate latent homosexuality of varying degrees in 9o% of humanity. It’s strong enough to demand satisfaction in less than 20% (it’s unknown how many active homosexuals remain deeply closeted). But the remainder FEEL and are aware of it, and tempted by it. Those are the ones who make a “choice” – and they believe that others do also. Even when they know that it is not a choice – it is comforting to tell themselves that it is – as a tacic to resist their temptations. (Yes – in a study of just over 100 students who insisted strict heterosexuality – 90% were sexually aroused by videos and images of homosexual “pornography”. Their pysiology and libidoes betray their obligatory assertions and homophobia. Ergo their hypocrisy.)

  • Mustafa Curtess

    Have any of those parents actually attended the classes or seen any of the study material (if any exists)?
    Have they asked their chidren what they think or how they respond to classmates who have both parents the same sex? All Muslims ithat emigrate to the USA do so to ecape their own failed culture – and then bring it with them (exactly like America’s first “Puritan” immigrants did – and look at the mess it has created).

  • Mustafa Curtess

    Well Said!

  • kerryberger

    Thank you, Mustafa.

  • EllyR

    One of the main reasons for the Islamic movements in the Western world is that many of the immigrants came to spread Islam and not to run away from it. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f811e1c6cf1f70f3b89dbdade009a3b936791277b376ec029c7863332712aa2e.jpg

  • Raging Bee

    These fools are now doing the foolishness that Christians were doing 50 years ago.

    “Were” doing? Where have you been for the last 50 years?

  • Raging Bee

    Schools at least need to teach that a) LGBT+ people exist, b) they have the same rights and duties under UK law as straight-cis people, and c) we’re all supposed to respect each other, in compliance with the law, whether or not we like each other.

  • Raging Bee

    How “many?” Citation required.

  • EllyR

    I don’t believe the exact number is known but judging by the number of troublemakers, so called “radicalized Muslims”, there are far too many to ignore!

  • Jim Jones

    Islam is one of the more stupid religions and not worth anyone’s time.

  • Jim Jones

    It’s very difficult to make anyone change sect – unless they want to, let alone change religion – unless they want to.

    Like Mitt Romney’s wife.

  • Jim Jones

    Where the Muslims Are Not Happy

    They’re not happy in Gaza.
    They’re not happy in Egypt.
    They’re not happy in Libya.
    They’re not happy in Morocco.
    They’re not happy in Iran.
    They’re not happy in Iraq.
    They’re not happy in Yemen.
    They’re not happy in Afghanistan.
    They’re not happy in Pakistan.
    They’re not happy in Syria.
    They’re not happy in Lebanon.
    They’re not happy in Indonesia.

    So, where are they happy?

    They’re happy in Australia.
    They’re happy in England.
    They’re happy in France.
    They’re happy in Italy.
    They’re happy in Germany.
    They’re happy in Sweden.
    They’re happy in the USA.
    They’re happy in Norway.

    They’re happy in almost every country that is not Islamic!
    And who do they blame [for their unhappiness]?

    Not Islam…not their leadership…not themselves… They blame the countries in which they are HAPPY! And they want to change the countries in which they’re happy, to be like the countries they came from, where they were unhappy.

    Try to find logic in that.

  • Mustafa Curtess

    That’s just unreasonable. I’ve been in half of those countries and 90% of the people wouldn’t even think about living anywhere else. Anywhere you go – you’re going to find a dis-advantaged minority that will go anywhere for an opportunity to make their lives better. I know Americans that think seriously about emigrating. If I didn’t have family that needed me in the USA I would never have returned from one of those foreign countries I lived and worked in. You may have hit upon an unexpected truth about 5 of those countries (you left out Somalia where all this BS started): The only place they are safe from the US military is here in the USA.

  • Mustafa Curtess

    Kinda’ like Christian misionaries that go all over the world spreading their BS – you mean? Yeah – maybe you’re right.

  • Mustafa Curtess

    You’re partially correct – but a bit inconsistent. We can’t blame the Muslims for the sudden, very aggressive, Evangelical move to take the USA back to the 18th century – at least. (Led by the Trump-Pence administation and the far-right GOP.)

  • Mustafa Curtess

    You’re quite right – of course. They really need to be told firmly that anytime they’re dis-satisfied with a giovernent-funded school – they just have to fund their own parochial schools – like Catholics do. In a way – it’s a bit unfair to them that immigrants don’t have to attend a brief seminar or orientation lecture that explains their relationship to US society and ther responsibility to assimilate. I’ve sponsored an immigrant – and nothing even remotely like that was involved. It needs to be in their home country, in their mother language, and they have to agree to abide by it – before an immigrant or residence visa can be granted. As it is – immigrants arrive here with a distorted view that leads to some shock and disappointment (and trouble for everyone concerned). They also neeed to understand that they will NOT have full citizens’ rights – until they are naturalized (in either 5 or 10 years).

  • Robert Baden

    Same with missionaries from the US. Going to covert the heathen Catholics in Latin America.

  • Robert Baden

    Watch out for American Xtians. You’ll have the same problems with them.

  • Robert Baden

    Watch out. American Xtians will try to change Europe.

  • Raging Bee

    ONE is “too many to ignore.” That doesn’t tell me squat.

  • Jim Jones

    Check the picture:

    http://disq.us/p/2082bsy

  • Jim Jones

    Despite picking the better kids, charter schools don’t have a very good reputation. They tend to be mostly for whites.

  • Jim Jones

    If DeVos starts taking public (city, county) money for private schools, the taxpayers there should reduce the school taxes they pay in their district to zero. Let the feds pay if they pull that shit.

  • Mustafa Curtess

    It doesn’t work that way. What DeVos can do is subsidize parochial and private schools with Federal money. I’m thinking it would have to be done thru Congress by establishing a Federal program of some kind and appropriating funding for it. From there it would go to the schools as an annual “grant” of some kind. So much per student to offset enrollment fees and tuitio, infratstructure, payroll, transportation, etc. The Republicans have been trying for years to get local school districts to give private schools the amount the local taxing jurisdiction allocates per transferred student – and I don’t think it has been successful (I could be wrong – some states may be doing it).
    But I’m sure DeVos intends to use Federal $ – whch is the simplest way to do it nation-wide. Bush proposed “Faith Based Initiative” to give money to religious groups to distribute as various kinds of welfare (just another way to give Federal money to the churches – which would be unconstitutional as hell.) IDK if it went any further than a proposal – but maybe it did ?????)

    Atheism is at a big disadvantage because we have Zero infrastructure to operate in parallel with religious organizations, No membership meeting places to collect “tithes”, no private schools and universities, no weekly “services” to collect “donations” etc. In short – no way to accumulate slush-funds to contribute to “PAC’s” and to bribe lawmakers with.
    With religion now “on a roll” and jesus freaks running the courts – I don’t see how it can be stopped. The democrats won’t – because they’re mostly Christian and Jew themselves, and to stand up to the “church” would just weaken their voting base.
    Nosir! Trump has already established a debilitating legacy that will haunt the nation for generations to come.

  • Connie Beane

    The first iteration of charter schools were called “segregation academies” here in the South when they popped up right after Brown v. Board of Education, so they don’t tend to be mostly for whites, they are mostly for whites. After a while the proprietors of these “schools” realized that they needed cover to hide their racism, so they started pushing the religion/morality angle as being more palatable to white parents who didn’t want their children educated alongside black children, but didn’t want to appear prejudiced. The cost of tuition effectively excluded most black students, but it also kept quite a few white students from attending, depriving these schools of both the (white) bodies and the funding needed to keep them solvent. That’s when they started this most recent movement to raid public school funds.

    Charter schools don’t actually pick “better” students, they just admit the children of more affluent parents, who have a leg up on learning. Some of these schools do admit some children who are not white (money is, after all, money), but they generally try to keep their numbers low, and by hewing to the “Christian” line as most of them do, they can exclude some brown and black children simply on the grounds that their parents are Hindu or Muslim.

    Charter schools are really focused on racial purity, so the parents of the students often are less concerned about what their children are learning and more about who sits next to them in class. Some of these parents don’t really “believe” in education anyway, and aren’t equipped to assess the quality of instruction being given. As long as their children are moving up from grade to grade, they assume that’s all that counts. A lot of these schools use curricula which have been specifically developed to inculcate “Christian” values and either ignore fact-based subjects like the sciences and history, or twist the facts to suit their ideology. I’m not sure how this kind of “education” eventually affects the students’ success in the real world, but from comments I have heard from business people about the lack of intelligence in the people who apply for jobs these days, I suspect that charter schools are turning out graduates who will never be capable of holding even a low-level job, much less be able to learn to qualify for more challenging employment.

  • Jim Jones

    The US still hasn’t experienced the full effects of zero-hour jobs and the gig economy although it’s getting there. ISTM that the UK is worse now.

    https://notalwaysright.com/search/resume

    https://notalwaysright.com/tag/employment-agency/

  • Connie Beane

    What the heck are “zero-hour” jobs and the “gig economy”? ISTM?

  • Jim Jones
  • EllyR

    You mean convert I hope… That is what they do as a job…

  • EllyR

    Definitely too many to ignore but being PC is more important!

  • Connie Beane

    Making your reader do research to understand your point is kind of lazy.

  • Jim Jones

    No, it isn’t. Not fact checking for yourself is lazy.

  • Raging Bee

    I’ll take “degeneracy” over your loony incoherent racist tripe any day.

  • Nemo

    Muslims are disliked because they belong to an unpopular religion (debate if you will whether certain religions should be unpopular, but it is unpopular), and religions, by definition, have teachings. They have prescriptions for behavior and forbid certain behavior. You see a contradiction, but I see none, and I am no fan of Islam. They want respect for their religion, and their religion forbids homosexuality and deviance from gender roles.

  • Nemo

    Pretty much. Some of the more articulate Christians will admit that perhaps people don’t choose to be gay, but they will then immediately clarify that everyone is inherently sinful, and so homosexuality is just the way that the homosexual’s sin nature expresses itself. The real damnation, they claim, comes not from being gay, but choosing to give in to it rather than submit to Jesus and constantly resist their sexuality. In theory, this isn’t hateful, since everyone but asexuals experiences sexual attraction to someone they aren’t married to at some point or other, and so it condemns nobody by condemning everyone. In practice, it leads to fundamentalists comparing the victimless crime of being gay with being dishonest or violent.

  • barriejohn

    They’re only being asked to educate their children about the existence of same-gender relationships in modern society, and the need to respect these even if they disagree with them on principle. They’re not being asked to tell their children that they should be gay! In any case, the sexual element of the relationship wouldn’t be dealt with at a young age, and children are amazingly capable of getting their heads around things which some adults find most difficult to deal with:

    “It’s not the kids we have to worry about. They can deal just fine. It’s the adults; they’ve had a lifetime to accumulate hatred.”

    https://youtu.be/6SvCvvEbWR8

  • Foxglove

    In practice, it leads to fundamentalists comparing the victimless crime of being gay with being dishonest or violent.

    Exactly. And this is one we encounter quite often. Being gay or transgender is like any other sin. Recently I had one delightful person throw in “child molesters, thieves and murderers.” Although pedophilia is a perennial favorite.

    The real damnation, they claim, comes not from being gay, but choosing to give in to it rather than submit to Jesus and constantly resist their sexuality.

    And this is another one we hear all the time. The way I put it is, “Being a golfer isn’t illegal, but hitting a golf ball with a golf club is.” I.e., it’s OK to be what you are as long as you agree not to be what you are.

  • Foxglove

    This is another argument we hear quite often, and I don’t buy it. Certain religions–or rather, let us say, certain versions of various religions define being gay or transgender as a sin. Now for me, this is no different from Mormons saying, as they did at one time, that dark skin is a sign of God’s disapproval. Now nobody has any problem seeing the racism there.

    What they’re doing is defining a group as beyond the pale, based on one particular trait that has nothing to do with whether an individual in that group is an honest or dishonest person, a decent or nasty person, etc. I.e., you don’t take individuals as individuals. You don’t judge an individual according to his individual merits or demerits. You simply cover the whole group in a blanket condemnation.

    And that’s bigotry. That’s precisely what bigots do–condemning a whole group rather than judging individuals according to their character. And it doesn’t do a believer–a Mormon, in this case–any good to say, “This is my religious faith! This is a teaching from God!” Bigotry is bigotry, wherever it comes from. So if a believer says that such a teaching is a part of their faith, they’re saying their faith is bigoted. If he says it comes from God, he’s saying that God is bigoted. Mormons themselves copped onto this, and I believe they mitigated this doctrine in the 70’s, then finally repudiated it altogether in 2013. The bigotry there became to blatant to ignore any longer.

    And this is precisely what many Christians and Muslims do regarding LGBT people–they put a blanket condemnation on a whole group because of a particular trait that has nothing to do with whether a given individual is a decent, honest, upright person. This is simply bigotry. I personally get very tired of such believers telling me that I don’t respect their religion. Of course I don’t. They want respect for a teaching that allows them to show me the deepest possible disrespect that anyone could show another person.

    I myself take people as individuals. What a given religion teaches formally is one thing. What a given individual believer actually believes and practices might be something very different. When I encounter a believer who doesn’t actually condemn LGBT people as a group, but judges them as individuals, I have no quarrel with that person. There are plenty of Muslims who don’t condemn LGBT people. A while back I saw a survey that indicated that 45% of American Muslims were on board with same-sex marriage. I have no quarrel with such people. But when somebody wants to condemn me, while demanding that I respect them, they’ll find I don’t go along with that.

  • barriejohn
  • Dhammarato

    watching with a big smile. Yes Islam is still backwards, but it will follow Christianity down the toiled bowl of history. say about 50 years after Christianity is finally wiped out.

  • Like any other religion of blind faith to believe without logical reason is the most scary thing to me. I am lucky not to have been born in an Islamic region of the world.

  • Right

  • To respect religion that preaches HATE is not smart.

  • It is the Dagma and the Charlatans that preach bullshit that should be feared and rejected , most religion are mechanism for POWER.

  • Any God that would inflict maximum pain forever on anything is a MONSTER!

  • See Humanism

  • Thanks

  • Right , but the dogma is more threatening to peace .