Christians will exodus from Maine because of a new vaccination law

Christians will exodus from Maine because of a new vaccination law May 26, 2019

CHRISTIANS will leave Maine in their droves, and many will be discouraged to settle in the state as a result of a bill ending most religious exemptions for mandatory childhood vaccines.

Screenshot

The dire warning was sounded earlier this month by Republican  state Senator Lisa Keim, above, when the Maine Senate voted 18-17 to remove religious exemptions from the state’s school vaccination law.

Keim said:

We are pushing religious people out of our great state. And we will also be closing the door on religious people who may consider making Maine their home. We are fooling ourselves if we don’t believe an exodus would come about.

She wasn’t a lone voice in opposing the vote. Republican Senator Brad Farrin asserted:

Fundamentally, this vote isn’t about public health – it’s about how far is too far for the government to reach into our personal lives. A vote against this bill isn’t a vote against vaccinations – it’s a vote in support of parental choice and religious freedoms.

The Maine Republican Party also slammed the vote. Its Executive Director, Jason Savage said:

Maine is now known as a state where lawmakers are willing to violate their people’s religious freedom.

Image via YouTube

But despite opposition, its reported that Maine’s first female Governor , Democrat Janet Mills, above, went ahead an signed the bill last Friday, ending most non-medical exemptions for mandatory childhood vaccines. The move came just days after the first confirmed measles case hit the state.

Maine had one of the highest rates of non-medical vaccine exemptions in the country. Now it joins California, Mississippi and West Virginia which have voted to eliminate religious exemptions for vaccine requirements.

The measles outbreak spreading across the country has now hit 25 states, with Maine becoming the latest state to see a confirmed case.

The nationwide outbreak is the largest since measles was declared eliminated in 2000.

Maine is also battling an outbreak of whopping cough, which can be combated with a vaccine.

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  • rubaxter

    I’d imagine this is just what the paper companies wanted.j

    Same old feeble Libertardian protest. EVERYTHING is a violation of ‘religious choice’ and ‘parental freedom’. They’re just polly-parroting the ‘Thuglican Talking Points.

  • Matt G

    For those wondering what Mississippi and West Virginia (of all states) are doing on that list, apparently they had devastating outbreaks of some disease many decades ago, so there was very little pushback against such legislation.

  • Michael Neville

    Letting children die and endangering public health is less important to certain people than keeping a figment of their imagination happy.

  • Har Davids

    Win-win! An end to the annoying presence of religious idiots and to contagious diseases.

  • rubaxter

    I guess Maine is just the Alaska of the lower 48; the place people go to disappear and live off-grid according to the degree of ‘freedom’ they need (to not get caught).

    Just hope these Luser emigres don’t go too far south in their search for “FREEDUMB!!!”

  • Glandu

    Religious freedom of killing one’s kids.

  • Neko

    May I suggest Alabama as a destination for these persecuted Christians. “Alabamians’ deeply held belief that every life is precious and that every life is a sacred gift from God” will save the state from contagion, right, Gov. Ivey?

  • Anri

    Ok, people are confused here.
    The god you worship by making other people sick is Nurgle, not Yahweh.

    Granted, the latter has had a deft hand with plagues in the past, but really, best to keep your deities straight.

  • Martin Penwald

    CHRISTIANS will leave Maine in their droves, and many will be discouraged to settle in the state as a result of a bill ending most religious exemptions for mandatory childhood vaccines.

    Yesss!!

  • RainbowPhoenix

    Sounds like Maine will be better off.

  • CoastalMaineBird

    religious idiots and contagious diseases.

    Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference.

    Sorry to say that I was once an anti-vaxxer. Revisited the evidence a couple of years ago and changed my mind, vaccinated my son (at age 17).

    Help elect Janet Mills.

    Didn’t really intend to evict the Christians, but so be it.

  • Ann Kah

    That would be “christians*”. The only problem is that those christians* will inflict their presence and their diseases upon other states instead.

    * Christians on the lunatic fringe of anti-science mythology.

  • raven

    Keim said:

    We are pushing religious people out of our great state. And we will also be closing the door on religious people who may consider making Maine their home. We are fooling ourselves if we don’t believe an exodus would come about.

    She is wildly wrong here.
    The vast majority of religious people don’t have a problem at all with vaccination.
    The anti-vaxxers are a small minority of very strange faith healing cults.
    And not all anti-vaxxers are basing their position on their religion.
    What exodus?
    We are probably looking at 10 or 20 people at the most.
    And Maine’s “loss” of religious cultists will be the state of Maine’s gain and some other state’s loss.
    The correct response is, “Bye and don’t let the door hit you in the backside on your way out.”

  • Ann Kah

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it a position of the Orange Vulgarian and his supporters that diseases were all flowing over the Mexican border with all those (vaccinated) immigrants?

  • Greg G.

    Or, “Bye and don’t sneeze on anybody on your way out.”

  • David Lane

    do they need help packing?

  • CoastalMaineBird

    And not all anti-vaxxers are basing their position on their religion.
    Correct. I based mine on the thiomersal hysteria of 1999 (my son born Dec. 1998), without regard to religion.
    Ironically, he turned up with PDD-NOS (on the autism spectrum) in 2003 anyway.

    Reviewed the evidence in 2016 and changed my position – had him vaccinated.

  • James R. Olson

    This is wonderful news to this Mainah. The fewer ignorant people in Maine the better, I say

  • Matt G

    I’m sure they will be welcomed with open arms in the new state of Liberty, a conservative Christian paradise-to-be in the Pacific Northwest. See blog posts from Hemant, and from PZ Myers (who grew up out there).

  • Cozmo the Magician

    hopefully they all head east from Maine… after all that is the ‘right’ direction to go O_o

  • Steve Henry

    It would be outstanding if all christian fundies moved down south. America would be so much better off.

  • Steve Henry

    I wish ALL christian fundies would move South. What they really want is a Christian Dominionist state which is NOT at all what the Founders intended.

  • Norman Parron

    Well seeing how the religious act in the past, I can guess that this is a pack of lies, as they will not be going anywhere. They are using emotional BS to try to get others on their side and get their religious privilege back, losing this one could lead to fair taxation of the religious and other atrocities!

  • Neko

    There are times when I think Lincoln should’ve just let the Confederate states go. But then I think, No. That wasn’t a good option, either.

  • Lurker111

    “We are pushing religious people out of our great state. And we will
    also be closing the door on religious people who may consider making
    Maine their home.”

    Not sure I see a problem with that …

  • Neko

    You wrote:

    What they really want is a Christian Dominionist state which is NOT at all what the Founders intended.

    I’ve long been alarmed by the religious right, but now I’m really alarmed. It’s true Dominionists, and their anti-democratic comrades on the evangelical and Catholic right, are theocrats.

    Those who want to defend a pluralistic, multicultural constitutional republic are in for the fight of their lives.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Whoopping cough, FWIW.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Can I have the stuff they can’t pack? 😉

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    I betcha if they did they think they’d sprout gills.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    “And go at night, so we have at least 2 hours for airborne measles to dissipate.”

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    🙁

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Good riddance to an infestation and a vector!

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Yep…it’s the “It doesn’t matter until it happens to ME!” mindset.

    Which is also why the opioid abuse is now such a big topic…it’s hit white folks, particularly the racist rural variety, damned hard.

  • Greg G.

    Would Alabama take them? With the new law that bans abortion even in cases of incest, Alabama might be wanting more inbred Alabamans.

  • larry parker

    Win, win.

  • Larry Dawson

    If the Christians leave Maine, will anyone notice?

  • Mike Panic

    Maybe it will make property affordable for me.

  • Mike Panic

    My brother had Whooping Cough in the 1950’s. Horrible coughing. The only “treatment” was to let it run its course.

  • Mrs Chattles

    For heavens sake when are the people going to DEMAND that EVERY politician should also be FORCED to get all 72 vaccines on today’s vaccine schedule for children, including every booster shot, the flu shot and the full course of Gardasil for males too.
    Preferably all at once just to prove to the public once and for all just how really “safe & effective” they are.

  • phatkhat

    Most of the politicians probably HAVE had their shots, or, if they are older, acquired immunity through having all the diseases, like I, unfortunately, did.

  • brothersun

    Anri, 1) A significant % of children who get the measles vaccine get measles from the vaccine. And children who get the pertussis vaccine can be asymptomatic carriers/spreaders of pertussis. These are known side effects of those vaccines and it’s impossible to build herd immunity with vaccines that have such a high failure rate. 2) Most parents who are choosing to not vaccinate were NOT anti-vaccine until they DID vaccinate and found that the side-effects were worse then the disease the vaccines are purported to protect against. If vaccines were actually working and NOT causing harm, there would be no anti-vax movement.

  • James R. Olson

    I am afraid nothing can do that, Mike.

  • 24CaratHooligan

    As a Limey I still don’t understand the link between vaccination and RELIJUS FREEEEEDUMB…

  • Anri

    1) Ok, let’s take a look see.
    There are of course side-effects of vaccines, no-one here has ever denied that.
    I will be needing some references on what you consider “significant”, especially in light of how prevalent the diseases were in unvaccinated communities.

    2) Round-the-world travel works fine, but there is a flat earth movement.

    Just to give you a heads-up, you’re the third of fourth commenter I’ve been interacting with recently on this topic. All of the others stopped replying after I actually read through the references they were linking to and generally showed that they didn’t really say what the commenter thought they were saying.
    I am not in any way saying that this is going to happen here, just… please maybe re-read what you are linking to. It might well save us both so much time.

    Oh, and please don’t ask me to look it up myself. If you can’t support points don’t make them, and you’re only allowed to assign me homework if and when I’ve accepted you as a teacher.

    Thanks.

  • brothersun
  • Mike Panic

    I am 72 so am settled in. I justr want to go see the fall colors.

  • Dan McLeod

    You’re an idiot.

  • Dan McLeod

    Please. The vaccine effectiveness is still light years ahead of not vaccinating.

  • Sophotroph

    Read the study linked in the article.

    It does not support the article’s conclusion in any way. A “vaccine reaction” is not an infection.

    Really, there’s no greater possible failure in your situation.

  • brothersun

    Maybe, maybe not. You have no evidence to support that claim because efficacy tests never actually look at the rate of disease in the vaccinated v. unvaccinated. It’s only assumed based on the presence of antibodies, but antibodies are a marker for INFECTION, not immunity. But, even if a vaccine was 100% effective, is it worth stopping measles but giving the child leukemia or epilepsy, or an autoimmune condition, or anti-phospholipid syndrome, or anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis, or acute disseminated encephalomyelitis or myocarditis, or SIDS…

  • Mary Kretzmann

    Most babies get more vaccine doses by four months old than the politicians have ever received

  • Mary Kretzmann

    Vax-free kids are healthier, happier and smarter (far fewer learning disabilities)- but okay…

  • PollyTickle1

    The one case of measles in Maine was in a vaccinated child, the same as the one case in New Hampshire. Both vaccinated.

  • Glandu

    muhahahahaha!!!!!

    Ask yourself why Mississipi, a very religious state, has no exemption for vaccines – even religious ones. Pro-Tip : they were badly struck by epidemics.

    Vaccines do work, and they save lives. Like helmets on bicycle (I sawmy own daughter’s life being saved by a helmet). Hlemets are cumbersome and unelegant, but they save lives. Same for vaccines.

    (ah, and for reference, my daughter is duelling for being the best in her middle school. She is fully vaccined, of course. That’s just anecdotal data, I know, but anti-vaxxers don’t have anything else)

  • Tiny but fierce

    And your sources for that are?

  • Dan McLeod

    Where’s the evidence the measles vaccine causes all of that? I mean, you’re claiming my statement has no evidence yet you’re assuming an awful lot there.

    And considering measles can wipe out an immune system and kills tens of thousands a year worldwide still , i’d take the small risk vs letting something continue because people swallow up Wakefield propaganda still.

  • Anri

    This study is about a gene-sequencing system to speed up the differentiation between vaccine reactions that superficially resemble measles, which can be differentiated because they match the sequences of the vaccine strains, and actual measles cases, which are caused by wild-type viruses.

    Here’s a quote from the study, emphasis added:

    Since approximately 5% of recipients of measles virus-containing vaccine experience rash and fever which may be indistinguishable from measles (9), it is very important to identify vaccine reactions to avoid unnecessary isolation of the patient, as well as the need for contact tracing and other labor-intensive public health interventions. Recent measles outbreaks in the Canadian provinces of Alberta and British Columbia have emphasized the need for rapid differentiation of vaccine reactions (18, 19) from reactions to infection with the wild-type virus

    In other words, the scientific study says almost exactly the opposite of what the linked article says it does.

    Now, maybe the article writers are just kinda dumb and didn’t actually understand what the study said, in which case I don’t see any reason to take them seriously.
    Alternately, they understand fine and are simply liars, in which case I don’t see any reason to take them seriously.
    These are, of course, not necessarily mutually exclusive categories.

    But I’ll tell you what, you read over the study and parse it our for us if you think we’re misinterpreting it. Read it, and quote it, and see if it bears any resemblance at all the what the claimed it said. Go on ahead.

    It is worth noting I asked you to do just exactly that to avoid just exactly this happening.

    My point for 2) was that just because there is a movement about something, that does not mean those in the movement have a sensible point. People getting together to push a silly idea makes that idea not one whit less silly.

  • brothersun

    Every published study ends with the conclusion that vaccines are safe so keep vaccinating. The reason to read studies is to see how they try to manipulate the data to hide what’s really going on. In this case they are saying the vaccine reaction is indistinguishable from wild measles but it’s not really measles because it was administered by a vaccine. You’re pretty gullible if you believe that, The MMR even lists measles as a known adverse reaction to the shot. If you want to get measles, just get it from someone who has it. Why inject yourself with it, which bypasses the normal routes of infection which trigger the immune system to work the way it was designed. That is, through mucous membranes, etc. When you inject a virus, it does not enable the immune system to develop life-long immunity as when you experience measles naturally. Also, when you take a vaccine you are also risking dozens of life-threatening adverse reactions which are way worse than a measles rash for a week. Measles is only “deadly” in populations that are undernourished. So, if you really care about them, help them learn how to grow food, develop irrigation systems, etc. Vaccinating them does not make up for lack of nutrition!

  • BlueSurgeon

    Did you make all this up as you went along? Or was your imagined fairy-father dictating?
    If anti-vaxxers actually read how vaccines are produced and not believed what they overheard in the bus queue they wouldn’t be anti-vaxxers. I can imagine they heard they will either be protected by their faith, or their “lord” will ensure a better life when they and those they have infected have left for eternity, along with the bus queue.

  • BlueSurgeon

    What about the microbe’s life? I think I’ll move to Alabama and start a “Microbes Have Families Too” movement. I reckon it will “catch” on.

  • se habla espol

    … a standard unevidenced claim from the pro-plague side.

  • se habla espol

    @disqus_XUAgAqs9Zt:disqus ‘s sources are standard propaganda mills of the anti-vax industry.

  • se habla espol

    1) A significant % of children who get the measles vaccine get measles from the vaccine.

    What is the actual percentage you’re claiming? Making a mushy, meningless claim of “significant” is nothing more than a smoke screen, something you use when you have nothing valid to say. I find this claim to be totally unfounded (bog standard anti-vax) since, last time I looked, measles vaccine does not contain any infectious agent.

    And children who get the pertussis vaccine can be asymptomatic carriers/spreaders of pertussis.

    This claim, too, needs evidentiary support from a credible source.

    These are known side effects of those vaccines

    Yes, there are side effects, that run at about 1 part per million. What’s the likelihood of adverse effects from an infection of the diseases in question? Reality shows it’s about 1000 times the likelihood of adverse effects from vaccines.

    and it’s impossible to build herd immunity with vaccines that have such a high failure rate.

    That’s not what actual immunologists report. What actual evidence do you claim to have to support this idea?

    2) Most parents who are choosing to not vaccinate were NOT anti-vaccine until they DID vaccinate and found that the side-effects were worse then the disease the vaccines are purported to protect against.

    Again, a claim with no evidence to support it, thus showing the claim to be, at very best, highly suspect.

    If vaccines were actually working and NOT causing harm, there would be no anti-vax movement.

    Do you have any evidence to support this conjecture, or are you just trying to pull our legs some more?

  • Mike Stevens

    “If vaccines were actually working and NOT causing harm, there would be no anti-vax movement.”

    The antivax movement dates back to the time of the smallpox vaccine. And yes of course, the smallpox vaccine doesn’t work, since there is still a global smallpox pandemic….
    …Oh, err… wait.

  • (1) Oh Lord. Where did you get the nonesense with a significant children vaccinated against measles get measles ? Don’t tell me it is the 38% of suspected measles cases number mentioned in the paper where they developed a test to discriminate between measles and a vaccine side effect.

    (2) Most parents do not know the side effects of the actual disease and think the probability to get it is so low that the vaccine is more dangerous. Do you know what the logic is behind that ? Let’s save the cost for maintaining aircraft, they have so few accidents anyways. Sounds idiotic ? It is.

  • se habla espol

    In other words, the babies are safer than the politicians. OK by me.

  • FallsAngel

    No, no one gets measles from the vaccine.

    Edit: I just saw this in my inbox and thought you were only talking about measles; now I see you’re talking about several other vaccines as well.

    Pertussis vaccination does not turn people into “asymptomatic carriers”. This information came from a study on baboons; it is not known if it applies to humans as well. Assuming, arguendo, that it does, there is a difference between a “carrier” state and an asymptomatic infection, which is what the baboon study talked about. As pertussis is spread by cough, having the disease w/o cough is spreading less disease than wild pertussis with a fulminate cough.

    Most parents who choose not to vaccinated were anti-vaccine or at least “on the fence” prior to pregnancy, according to the research.

  • brothersun

    Everything I wrote is verifiable but apparently not spoken about in the pro-vax echo chamber in which you choose to live. It’s a very complex topic and I can’t take time to spoon feed you the info. You need to do your own research outside of the “official” sources which are entirely bought by corporate interests, NOT an interest in scientific integrity or “the greater good.” But, regarding 2) I can refer you to the 1,000+ interviews conducted by Polly Tommey of “Vaxxed”. She interviewed parents of vaccine-injured children and the first question she asked was “Could you have been called anti-vax prior to your children being injured?” and 99.9% said “No, we believed in vaccines! We vaccinated out children!” About 0.1% said they were hesitant but the doctor bulied them into complying. You really need to listen to the parents tell their stories. Here’s about 800 stories including families that have vaccine-injured children and also unvaccinated children (they stopped vaccinating after the older ones were injured) and you can see that the unvaccinated have NONE of the medical problems of their unvaccinated siblings. No autism, no food allergies, no seizures, no ear infections, no ADHD, etc. vaccine-injury (dot) info/featured-vaccine-injury-stories-vaxnot (replace the ” (dot) ” with a dot)

  • jay

    Exactly how many Maine kids have died, say, in the last 10 years of any of these things, if we are letting them die? I haven’t heard any numbers on this so far????

  • Michael Neville

    I don’t know and I don’t care. Allowing people to keep their kids unvaccinated because “Gawd thinks that’s icky” can spread measles and other diseases to people who can’t be vaccinated for legitimate reasons, commonly people with immune system disorders.

    Complications of measles include pneumonia (the most common cause of death for measles sufferers), encephalitis (which can cause deafness or intellectual disabilities), neurological disorders and respiratory disorders. Maybe I’m just selfish but I don’t want my grandchildren to suffer those problems just because some godsoaked smuck thinks his beliefs are more important than public health.

    If you don’t like that then let’s see you justify why someone’s interpretations of an imaginary, make-belief, non-existence critter’s wants and desires should supersede real-life effects on real people.

  • se habla espol

    n other words, you clowns still have no evidentiary support for your pro-plague claims. The best you can do is try to shift the burden of proof off yourselves and point to evidence-free propaganda films from the anti-vax industry.

  • brothersun

    The detailed account of parents comparing the heath outcomes between their vaxxed .v unvaxxed children ARE the best kind of evidence. There’s no statistical manipulation after the fact as with vaccine industry studies. And the genetics variable is constant because the children are from the same parents. The only way you can continue to believe in vaccines is to ignore the evidence.

  • se habla espol

    Those of us who care about reality, rather than propaganda, know that a bunch of cherry-picked anecdotes can only be useful to hint at possible research to be done. However, the research has been done (it shoots down the pro-plague case every time) and the selection of the anecdotes renders them useless for any honest purpose.
    The absence of statistical control means that we have no idea what the reality is that the samples would show.
    If there were any genetic component here, it could only be seen using homozygous twins, siblings that actually have matching genetics. Your “from the same parents” nonsense is laughable to anyone who understands a modicum of genetics.

    I will, thank you, attend to the evidence, and ignore the propaganda the pro-plague crowd puts up claiming it to be meaningful.

  • brothersun

    You’re assuming the stories are cherry picked. When people saw the Vaxxed bus parked in their neighborhood, they lined up to tell their stories. They were unsolicited. And of course it’s not going to determine the percentage of vaccinees who are injured, because the parents whose children were not obviously injured have no story to tell… yet. But the stories recorded prove that a significant number ARE injured. Way more than the 1-in-a-million figure that is thrown around. So, who determines how many injuries are acceptable collateral damage in the war against measles, chicken pox, or flu?

  • jay

    “imaginary, make-belief, non-existence”

    Like the children you claim are dying in Maine. Science and truth at it’s best.

  • Michael Neville

    Did I make the claim that children are dying in Maine? No, lying asshole, I did not. Your apology for lying about what I wrote, while not expected, will be accepted as long as you promise to stop lying.

  • Anri

    In this case they are saying the vaccine reaction is indistinguishable from wild measles but it’s not really measles because it was administered by a vaccine.

    Unfortunately, reference 9 is behind a paywall so I don’t actually know what it says beyond the abstract. If you have a reference to it so we can take a look at what they are saying, I’d be happy to read it. Otherwise, you appear to be coming to a conclusion opposite a medical research team’s based on nothing but an article abstract, which does not strike me as good science.

    Where measles cases have occurred due to vaccination, every reference listed calls them measles cases, not vaccine reactions. This strongly suggests that there is indeed a difference, and that the studies are not using the terms interchangeably. Again, if you have references to the contrary, I’m all ears.

    It is worth noting that one of the references (ref. 18) from the article included this little gem:

    Of note, only one case report of transmission from vaccine-associated measles has been identified [15,16].

    Now that certainly seems odd for as communicable a disease as measles, doesn’t it?

    Oh, and none of this information was in any way hidden or obfuscated, or anything of the sort.

  • jay

    “Letting children die”

    Your words, not mine. Article is about Christians leaving what state again, oh right. Maine.

  • brothersun

    Arni, At the very start of this thread you stated that we would need to present you with irrefutable evidence and you had no desire to “do your homework” to research unsupported statements. But, similarly, I have no desire to debate someone who is not open to learning something new, and sees the controversy as a game of “whack a mole” where your job is to whack down every point I raise. I have no time to spoon feed you every detail here, it’s way to complex. So I can only point you in a direction. But, clearly your mind is made up and so have no motivation to consider the possibility that the entire vaccine industry is built on scientific fraud, PR, lies and assumptions. The only way to get from where you are to a place where you can see this is to listen to the many MDs and PhDs who are speaking out on the topic. To learn about the fraud in vaccine safety studies. To learn about the research showing how aluminum from vaccines is transported to the brain via the macrophage. How the aluminum is shown to create granulomas inside muscle tissue which can lead to neurological injury. Science does not advance if you think you have nothing to learn, and just want to play King of the Hill where you play the role of defending the “official” narrative against all who would challenge it.

  • Anri

    Um, yes it is. Care to elaborate?

  • Anri

    Arni, At the very start of this thread you stated that we would need to present you with irrefutable evidence and you had no desire to “do your homework” to research unsupported statements

    Actually, I said I’d read all the evidence given. If you can find the word irrefutable or an equivalent in my post, please quote it and I’ll apologize at once.

    I also said you couldn’t just assign me homework and blithely assume you’ve supported the points you were trying to make. I didn’t say anything about being unwilling to do research. It is through reading articles by, and interacting with medical personnel that I have arrived at the positions I tentatively hold today. In other words, my research seems to me to support what I have to say.
    As I’ve demonstrated, I’m willing to read evidence you wish to bring to the contrary.

    But, similarly, I have no desire to debate someone who is not open to learning something new, and sees the controversy as a game of “whack a mole” where your job is to whack down every point I raise. I have no time to spoon feed you every detail here, it’s way to complex.

    Actually, all I said was that you would have to support points you raised if you wanted me to accept them. It seems entirely reasonable to refuse to accept points the person raising can’t support. If you disagree, let me know.

    You’re picking the points to raise here, choosing whatever you think you have the best and clearest evidence for, all based on your own provided links. No-one is dragging this conversation in directions you find too complex other than yourself.
    Please don’t blame me for your choice of topics.

    Candidly, if this is your typical level of reading comprehension, you probably shouldn’t consider yourself well-read on any topic.
    Just my $.02.

  • Michael Neville

    So no apology for lying about what I said. Typical anti-vaccer, lies because the truth doesn’t help their arguments.

  • se habla espol

    Then, too, there’s SSPE, a 100% fatal sequel to measles; there’s the 3-year suppression of a measles survivor’s immune system; there’s the other part of the measles encephalitis as experienced by The Wife’s cousin for the past 60 or so years: total physical disability. The pro-meases crowd is just plain evil.

  • se habla espol

    There are vaccine compensation programs in many places, because there are anti-vaxxers in those places trying to pocket lots of dosh at the expense of the vaccine industry and of the people who don’t worhip diseases the way the pro-plaguers do.

  • se habla espol

    Mary, would you be honest enough to provide the data your claims need to be based on, or are you just being a standard anti-vax propagandist?

  • jay

    “So no apology for lying about what I said”

    I just keep quoting you, so the only lie would be contained in your quote.

  • jay

    “Which is also why the opioid abuse is now such a big topic”

    Is it the pharmaceutical companies fault for lying about their drug from the start, or is it the dr who prescribed it them for as long as they did. Maybe it’s the fault of the peer reviewed studies that the medical community continually tells us they get their informed information from and not info from the pharmaceutical companies. Where do we look?

  • Dr Sarah

    Really appropriate typo, though…

  • … and smarter…

  • Snake handlers?
    Sounds about right.

  • newstarget…
    It’s one of Mike “The Health Danger” Adams’ Gnatural Gnus adjuncts.
    Mikey is both dumb and a liar so the answer is “both”.
    … but he is considered a towering intellect in anti-vaccine death cult circles. Which should tell you all you need to know about the anti-vax ignoramuses.
    My cat knows more about science and medicine than Mikey.

  • Vaccinated kids are healthier, happier, and smarter (far fewer learning diabilities) – and better looking and richer – but okay…
    .
    Bare, unsupported assertion checkmate, Mary Kretzmann.
    Only my unsupported assertion beats your unsupported assertion because mine is highlighted in bold!!!!
    .
    See, Mary?
    Two can play at this game…

  • “Christians will exodus from Maine because of a new vaccination law
    by Barry Duke”

    .
    Barry Duke and Senator Lisa Keim, et al. seem to live in the same Fantasyland.
    The same “threat” of anti-vaccinationists leaving in a mass “exodus” was made during the propaganda war against California’s SB277.
    When SB277 was enacted the anti-vaccine cult claimed that the state would lose precious revenue due to the coming “exodus” and the schools would also lose revenue due to massive rejection of the mandate and a huge increase in home schooling.
    What are the facts?
    In every year since SB277 was enacted the population of California has increased and the kindergarten enrollment has also increased.
    Not decreased. The exact opposite to what the anti-vax liars claimed.
    Every.
    Year.

  • Mike Stevens

    To show how safe and effective they are, I insist my kids get them all.
    …that do you?

  • Dan McLeod

    Lmao, citation needed

  • Michael Neville

    As I said, typical LYING anti-vaccer. Now quote that, asshole.

  • jay

    Everyone can read you words and me quoting them. Pretty simple. Looks like someone got their keyboard tough guy shot along with their flu shot.

  • Michael Neville

    Since I didn’t say any children had died, it looks like you’re just another typical anti-vaccer, forced to lie because the truth doesn’t support your fantasies.

    You may have the last word. You’re not only not honest enough to admit that you lied about what I wrote, you’ve become boring.

  • jay

    “Letting children die and endangering public health is less important to certain people than keeping a figment of their imagination happy.”

    That is your full quote. How is it not reasonable to ask how many kids died, if people are “letting children die”. Sorry, not trying to be an “asshole”, I just live in Maine, and I have not heard or any kids dying or even in the hospital close to dying. That’s all. Sorry if you feel like I am a troll. For the record, I am vaccinated and so is my kid, so no antivaxx here.

  • DogGone

    I think they’d welcome any Kristian willing to pop out unlimited baybees and stay out of the workplace if female.

  • DogGone

    cooties

  • DogGone

    Stupidity.

  • Mike Stevens

    It’s just jay trying to mess about… when he wants to minimise the relevance of an issue he pretends it only applies in Maine; and when he wants to pretend he isn’t antivaccine he’ll day he vaccinated his kid (but my rule of thumb is that if it walks and talks like a duck it is one).

  • Mike Stevens

    Well, since 2000, around 40 have died directly from measles and from measles complications in the US, as you have acknowledged, so why you should be asking for the numbers is a mystery.
    Maybe some of these have been in Maine, maybe not, …but news for you bud, we are part of a global community, and your country is more than just the tiny tip of the NW corner.

  • karmacat

    Unlike religion, medical science continues to do research and revealed the problems with opiate pain meds. Researchers also corrected the problem with the initial RSV vaccine. But you are lazy. It is easier to yell conspiracy at everything than to actually do the work of reading actual scientific studies

  • Bored Now

    How is it not reasonable to ask how many kids died

    Because deaths are a function of infection rate and while it’s a pretty low proportion — it is an eventuality. The point of these measures is to reduce risk. In particular the one represented by the very high exemption rate in Maine right now.

    In fact, Maine had it’s first case in 2 years in 2019 and it was a child. thankfully they were vaccinated as it is far more likely that the next case will be an unvaccinated child. Which means it’s more likely to be a severe case.

    Now if more opportunity to exempt children did not mean fewer vaccinations. Then really whatever freedom you think is being lost isn’t really one that had any effect. If they are and it’s serious and significant (which is reasonable to imply from your statements) then you are, like it or not increasing the risk (significantly). While I generally have a soft spot for religious freedom I lose it quickly when it precipitates in these kinds of risks.

    Which is why you’re being a pretty big asshole. It doesn’t take much to see that when someone talks about ‘letting children die’ they are (at least partially) speaking in the subjunctive mood. Only assholes need to see child corpses — actually correct me if I’m wrong but I think you asked for fresh child corpses— before they will recognize risk. Right?

  • jay

    “fresh child corpses”

    Nope, point me to the buried ones in the last 10-15 years. Even bigger cowardly assholes pretend to care about kids and use the fear of death because they have no other argument.

  • jay

    Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, who again brought on the opioid problem in my state?

  • jay

    “as you have acknowledged”

    I acknowledged the quote from the CDC spokesperson.

    No worries here. I am vaccinated. That’s all I need to do, remember.

  • Mike Stevens

    Yeah, you sit tight. Just think of yourself, jay. Stuff everyone else, huh?

    I’m in this not just for myself, but for everybody else who isn’t protected by vaccines… the infants, the pregnant, the allergic, the immunosuppressed, the kids deliberately left unvaxed by their stupid parents, and the kids in whom vaccines might not work.

  • jay

    Again, I am vaccinated and so is my kid, so I did my part right. While you nearly broke your arm patting yourself on your back listing everyone you protect (I must have missed you in that last super hero movie), I noticed you left out the kids that have permanent damage from GBS after their loving parents did the right thing and got the vaccinated………

  • Mike Stevens

    How many kids have confirmed vaccine-proven GBS in Maine?

  • Bored Now

    in the last 10-15 years

    This is pretty much my point. So you can’t look at data where there were higher rates of infection because that might knock over your rather delicately balanaced rhetoric.

    But lets try a thought experiment here:

    Q: If a child died of measles tomorrow Jay. Would you change your mind?
    A: Nope.

    Q: Another two months later?
    A: Jay would say “Nope”.

    Q: How about a third, the week after that?
    A: “Well that’s not a big problem” says Jay.

    Q: And a forth the day after that?
    A:”Look this is about choice” is what you would say.

    See this is another reason your tactics here are unethical. Your statement is a red herring. We could place child corpse after child corpse on your doorstep day after day and it doesn’t change your position. Now if I’m wrong then you can simply state how many corpses it would take. Exactly how big would the pile need to be Jay? I could be wrong, I just think it’s exceptionally unlikely for that to be your position.

    That’s because this, for you is just rhetoric. It is, in the large sense meaninless talk. I’m a two-level utilitarian so when I say something like “Having a child get measles in my state (although I don’t live in a state) and having a record number of refusals put many more than just the roughly 5% at risk.” I’m willing to entertain options. Including some which to some people consider an infringement of religious freedoms. Those are great but they generally should bow-the-knee to public safety.

    Again, it’s just about thinking rationally instead of just fearmongering.

    Even bigger cowardly assholes

    Anyway I’m glad you get that you are being an asshole for demanding corpses before you will admit there’s a risk here. I’ll point out that all I’m talking about is risk. Ignoring risk and saying “Ooops” when someone dies is not reasonable. Plugging your ears to statistics that tell you the likely bodycount after a certain number of infections is not rational. What are you offering except those?

    As usual your ire is misapplied. I’ve said it’s reasonable not that it’s necessary to make these changes.

  • jay

    And when just one kid dies from a vaccine??? “OOOOPS”. Who just put their fingers in their ears……………….

  • jay

    I’m sorry. We were talking about you, and your altruism. You have experience in helping Maine kids? I do. I got vaccinated and I live here. See, protecting the herd. Now, back to you………..

  • Mike Stevens

    Jay, as demonstrated above in your interchange with Michael Neville, you only want to know about disease deaths in Maine, and aren’t bothered with anything out of state.
    So, to try and avoid exposing yourself as a complete hypocrite, I ask again:
    Have there been any confirmed cases of GBS in Maine that have been attributed to vaccination? And if not, why are you mentioning this?

    PS: I would note at this point for your education and that of any others reading these comments that:
    a) GBS is far likelier to result from a vaccine-preventable infection such as influenza than it is from a vaccine, and
    b) GBS doesn’t usually cause permanent paralysis. The usual course of clinical illness is for slow but eventual full neurological recovery. Only a small minority remain with permanent damage.

  • CoastalMaineBird

    Any particular reason you want to inflict this on our Canadian friends?

    I would suggest south.

  • Bored Now

    So I notice you can’t say how many corpses you need to revise your opinion BUT you seem to claim that even a single vaccine death is irrefutable reason for someone to be allowed to avoid vaccination.

    That’s correct. Right? Feel free to clarify.

    Given that you’ve kind of admitted that you don’t have any kind of rational method of evaluating this.

    And when just one kid dies from a vaccine??? “OOOOPS”

    No, it’s not “oops”. We know the risks and they are low and that’s just the kind of informed and rational decision people need to make. So the demographics of Maine are something like 38,000 people in the 0-5 range. Where the majority of vaccinations take place. If 5% of these are unvaccinated (or eventually unvaccinated by virtue of this trend continuing). So that’s 1900 children. Were they all to get infected we would expect about two deaths from the disease. Then a good chance of one more via SSPE. The deaths due to vaccines due to the excess vaccination of 1900 children is as close to zero as one could expect.

    Now if there is a subtle and unexpected problem that shows up later on. There are pharmacovigilence systems in place which are constantly looking for problems. There is also a fair amount of international communication. For example when the EU systems flagged Pandemrix other countries were pretty quick to jump in to determine if this problem was occurring in other vaccines with similar formulations.

    Again when you actually look at the vaccines that have been pulled off the market you see three undeniable things.

    1. They are usually removed/reformulated without conclusive evidence.
    2. They are usually very subtle effects. Things your average person would never notice.

    2. People like yourself play no useful part in the process. As much as that hurts your ego.

  • jay

    Doesn’t hurt my ego one bit. You have the EU. I live here. Say that again. You have the EU, and I live here. If the US wasn’t more important, you won’t be spending all of your time posting this now would you? So who needs who more? Did you included in your little math equation that just one missed dose is counted as unvaccinated? Or that your genius science pharma community included students who “attend” online schools in their vaccination mandate as to “protect” immunocompromised “classmates”. Where are your numbers on that? Curious?

  • jay

    “Have there been any confirmed cases of GBS in Maine that have been attributed to vaccination? And if not, why are you mentioning this?”

    I did. Where?

    “I noticed you left out the kids that have permanent damage from GBS after their loving parents did the right thing and got the vaccinated………”

    I asked how many kids super hero MS helped with it? You brought up in Maine, not me. As you have saved children around the world. A simple number will do.

  • Mike Stevens

    “So I notice you can’t say how many corpses you need to revise your opinion BUT you seem to claim that even a single vaccine death is irrefutable reason for someone to be allowed to avoid vaccination.”
    Nailed it!

  • Mike Stevens

    “We were talking about you, and your altruism. You have experience in helping Maine kids? I do.”
    And how old is your kid now? Why did you vaccinate him, out of interest, if concern about reactions is such a problem for you?

    PS:
    One of my sister’s daughters lives in Maine, and her daughter is now 3. She may yet choose to have other children.
    My reasons for wishing to see healthy vaccination rates in Maine are not entirely altruistic.

  • jay

    13 years old. We felt vaccination was best for us.

  • Bored Now

    Doesn’t hurt my ego one bit.

    Jay, the whole of your recent post history is MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME MY OPINONS MATTER, MINE YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO ME. Seriously. (Hey, Isn’t your state’s short-form “ME”? I’ll just point out that to someone rational that’s simply ironic. To someone like you I guess it’s ominously telling or something. I dunno I don’t do the “You are posting here about vaccines, against me therfore you must be a pharmaceutical employee” thing. So I don’t know what it’s like to be crazy).

    You have the EU. I live here. Say that again. You have the EU, and I live here.

    Well way to miss the point on so many levels that if it were an olympic sport you would get the gold. Bringing up the EU was to point out the degree of international co-operation that exists between pharmacovigilence. The US, Canada and other parts of the world all pooled their information when Pandemrix triggered the alarms (that you didn’t know about and are trying very hard to ignore).

    Also, I don’t live in the EU. So I only have the EU in the same sense you do. Like I said, “olympic level” missing the point.

    If the US wasn’t more important, you won’t be spending all of your time posting this now would you?

    Woah! Yeah, that’s not ego talking. Jay, I post to you because I find you entertaining. I like contrasting opinions. I find the minds of people with delusions intriguing. By noting the rationalizations you (and others) use to keep your beliefs. It helps me recognize irrational thought. Sort of like a vaccine against crazy. …and of course people like you who don’t really think their posts through. Only make those of us who do feel smart.

    So who needs who more?

    Well I don’t need you for anything but entertainment Jay. You seem to have an extreme need to believe that you are important though. Either directly to this discusion and/or by proxy of where you live.

    Did you included in your little math equation that just one missed dose is counted as unvaccinated?

    I was looking at your “opt-out’ rate. When looking at your coverage rate. Statistics make things look even worse: 91% coverage when looking at 2016 data. If, as you implictly claim opting out reduces the number of vaccinations. I can assume that today things are worse. For a disease with an R0 of 16 like measles. This is a bad position to be in.

    genius science pharma community included students who “attend” online
    schools in their vaccination mandate as to “protect” immunocompromised
    “classmates”.

    Nice to see that I’ve beaten you back to this particular hidey hole. The only numbers you need here are risk. The group that does online courses is probably relatively small. So it’s still an insignficant risk to them to have them vaccinated. Again measles is so contageous that you’re still may be preventing deaths. People can be infected just by being some place an infected person coughed hours later.

  • Bored Now

    When @disqus_OboaayD6wC:disqus talks about vaccine injuries. I wonder if he only counts those which happened in Maine?

  • Mike Stevens

    “When jay talks about vaccine injuries. I wonder if he only counts those which happened in Maine?”
    Of course not! 🙂 He’s rattling on about GBS caused by vaccination now, but got huffy when I asked for the data from Maine.
    Call it as you see it – maybe it’s just an oversight or an inconsistency, but I’m calling it out to be near the hypocrisy end of the scale.

  • Mike Stevens

    How about you answer my question first.

    Again, I ask: “Have there been any confirmed cases of GBS in Maine that have been attributed to vaccination?”
    I ask because you raised the issue of GBS following vaccination. Strangely, you dismiss the significance of bodies piling up of kids who died from measles (because they are not in Maine), yet you worry about vaccine induced GBS, which is phenomenally rare and does not seem to have happened in Maine. But feel free to correct me if you have the figures. (…perhaps email Ben Haynes?).

    “…not trying to be an “asshole”, I just live in Maine, and I have not heard or any kids dying or even in the hospital close to dying”

    Heard of any with vaccine-induced GBS? …Thought not.
    [You keep trying not to be an asshole, but you are failing]

  • Bored Now

    So I guess he doesn’t see the irony in carping about a sequlae of vaccination which could easily be dismissed as noise if it wasn’t for the much stronger correlation in the unvaccinated.

  • jay

    Nope, haven’t heard of any, but then again, there have been no cases of immunocompromised kids catching the measles from unvaccinated kids in the state either, and that why we need the mandate. So even though I have been vaccinated, maybe my vaccination was one of the few failures, I caught measles, damaged my hearing,and thats why I never heard of any????? Anytime anyone from the UK calls you an asshole, that is a compliment. After all, you still have a queen. This is 2019, not 1519……..

  • Mike Stevens

    So you have less of a dog in this fight than I do.

  • jay

    No, own child trumps grandniece. Nice try

  • Cozmo the Magician

    well parts of eastern maine IS coastline.. right?

  • Mike Stevens

    Your kid is 13 and fully vaxed.
    My grandniece isn’t, and there may be new additions to the family in future who will be at risk as infants.

  • jay

    My point is we are doing our part to keep your family safe!

  • Mike Stevens

    Thanks for that, genuinely.

  • jay

    You are welcome, genuinely as well!

  • CoastalMaineBird

    From most of Maine, going east gets you to New Brunswick. From all of Maine, going south gets you to the gulf of Maine.

  • Cozmo the Magician

    Oh, My georgaphy sux and I was just too lazy to look at an actual map. (;

  • And also the autistic kids who are liable to struggle with self-esteem anyway and certainly don’t need to be used as boogeymen, right?

  • Of course, it doesn’t actually matter whether he vaccinated his kid or not for the purposes of anti-vaccine. Since anti-vaccine means someone who spreads false information about vaccines in order to falsify them (i.e. it’s about what you say/type/otherwise communicate and not what you do), his kids’ vaccination status is irrelevant.

  • Hang on a second.

    Can you describe what an anti-vaxxer is, jay?

  • Mike Stevens

    Quite true. I am grateful he has vaccinated his child however, and not actively contributing to a lowering of herd immunity.

  • jay

    Why would my definition of an antivaxxer matter? I am vaccinated and so is my kid. My choice.

  • jay

    Just copying and pasting them actually. Glad you are on top of things.

  • Well, an anti-vaxxer is someone who spreads false information in order to falsely villify vaccines. In other words, what you do has nothing to do with whether you’re an anti-vaxxer or not.

  • jay

    OK…………………………….and???????????????

  • Aaaaand….whether you vaccinated your kid has zilch to do with whether you’re an anti-vaxxer or not.

  • jay

    According to you. Duly noted

  • Bored Now

    ….and according to anti-vaxxers themselves (I generally don’t use that term but in this case I’m talking about people who self-describe as such). For example we have a lovely person named Ron Roy on these forums and he admits to having been vaccinated and self-describes as an anti-vaxxer.

    I tend to use the term “vaccine critical” myself. Would you self-describe with that term?

  • Bored Now

    Good term I guess.

    Some people prefer “vaccine hesitant”.

    I think, like any drug, people do react badly to them, and because of this, they should not be mandated.

    I agree people do react badly to them but it’s vanishingly rare and usually results in no permanent harm. Deaths due to anaphylaxis for example are non-existent now. However potential for bad reactions isn’t enough reason to dismiss mandating vaccines. And again, I’m not saying mandates are necessary. However since virtually everything has the potential for harm, it’s not reason enough to dismiss mandates out-of-hand. That’s only logically consistent if all mandates are intrinsically wrong. Yet all of us live and accept hundreds of rules. Everything from seatbelts to gun licences.

    I feel these people do not have a voice

    It depends on who these people are. As is easy to see here there are people who profess a resistance to mandated vaccines (and vaccines in general). These people most assuredly have voices, conferences, blogs, web sites, councils. The extreme vast majority of these people are at best misinformed. I see no reason to amplify their voices any more than flat earthers or 9/11 truthers.

    I would like more transparency and liability,

    While I appreciate what you would like — I’d like a solid gold toilet FWIW — You haven’t been clear as to what “transparency” entails and liability doesn’t seem to do much. Unless you consider that 97% of Canadians thinking vaccines are safe is because we don’t have the NIVCP. I’m doubtful. I simply have seen no evidence to suggest this is primarily a rational argument. That is, vaccine hesitancy does not appear rational. As they say, you can’t reason people out of something they didn’t reason themselves into. So saying “If only people had X they would accept Y”. While I haven’t met every vaccine critic. I know that almost none of them can actually clearly define what would convince them and demonstrate why that’s intrinsically more convincing than the evidence they have in front of them.

    I have read some of RR’s posts and don’t really follow what seem to be a lot of fights with TM.

    His posts cycle around gainsaying and posting and reposting the same things.

  • Okay.

    One: Go read my post history.

    Two: That’s not the anti-vax movement’s fault

    Three: That whole 400-dead-per-year is a better option than you thing that’s likely to mess with self-esteem (i.e. boogeymen) is totally the anti-vax movement’s fault.

  • jay

    Even though I disagree with some of your points, I really enjoy your responses. Thank you.

    “Everything from seatbelts to gun licences”

    You are just fined for not wearing a seatbelt, you are not prohibited from driving a car, and only certain guns require licenses, so I do not feel like that is an appropriate comparison. Baring a child from public school is like saying someone can’t drive on the interstate without their seatbelt, but can drive on all other roads.

    “I would like more transparency and liability”

    Maybe I can clarify and say that I would like the companies to have the same rules and liabilities as they do for prescription drugs. A car seat company has the same safety liability for their infant car seats as they do for their toddler booster seats. They are not treated differently. Why two systems and if vaccine system benefits the public, why not change the prescription drugs over to that system? Every one says with VAERS, that correlation isn’t causation. OK , so then, how do we implement a system where we can figure out WHEN correlation IS causation and just take all the confusion out of it?

    “I feel these people do not have a voice”

    Again, I don’t think I was clear enough. There are plenty of vocal people out there but I feel they have hooked themselves up to the wrong self serving wagons out of desperation (or some other reasons i guess) like Del or RFK Jr. RFK Jr. was in Maine 4-5 years ago, and I wasn’t very happy impressed. I knew he had a book, but I didn’t need to hear about it every two seconds. I am talking about the families who have been compensated 250K for the death of a child. Or the people denied compensation without being able to present a case in front a jury of their peers, like any other product.
    That seems completely absurd to me.

    “flat earthers”

    Still waiting for someone to debunk the “Pac-Man Effect”!!!!!!

  • bwf309

    So Mikey, how many have died from the measles in Maine, or anywhere in the US in, oh say, the last 4 years? How many have died from the opioids you prescribe in the last 4 years? How many died from the Vioxx you prescribed? How many developed DVT’s, had strokes, or developed cancer from the HRT you prescribed Mikey? Maybe the science behind vaccines isn’t that good given that no long term studies are done. What about the increase in auto-immune diseases since the increase in vaccines has taken place? Maybe a relationship there considering the vaccines hit the infants while the nervous system is still developing? Maybe your science isn’t that sparkly. Why are you still in Britain? All your colleagues seem to be bailing on your “health care” system.

  • bwf309

    Oh God Mikey, “herd immunity?” Really? Over have the population is not current due to waning titer levels and you really bring up “herd immunity?” A mythical theory with no scientific evidence to back it up.

  • bwf309

    40 in 19 years have died from the measles. How many were fully vaccinated? How many were immune compromised? How many were malnourished?

  • bwf309

    Wow, and look at all the people who are dying because some are not vaccinated in the US. Typical medical scare tactic with no facts to back it up. “The boogey man might get you if you don’t do as I say.”

  • bwf309

    “vanishingly rare” and 4 billion dollars has been paid out for “vanishingly rare” incidences and it is known that less than 1% of the adverse reactions including death make it into VAERS

  • bwf309

    I know, I know. The drug reps and the doctors that listened to the reps and prescribed the opioids to their patients without knowing enough about them. Kind of like doctors don’t know any more than Merck tells them about vaccines. “Trust me I’m a doctor” used to mean something. Now it is a joke.

  • otrame

    So… you are claiming that kids aren’t getting dangerously ill and/or dying in this little disaster that is going on worldwide?

    No, not in Maine. Yet. But that is beside the point. The point is that vaccinations had basically wiped out the disease in this country until the anti-vaxxers got started. And it does hurt kids. Trust me. I had measles when I was five. I have never forgotten how sick I was.

    Also, where exactly, in any holy book, does it say not to vaccinate your kids?

  • otrame

    Of course adverse effects occur. They are very rare. Very rare. Dying, or being permanently injured by measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, chicken pox, influenza, etc. etc., is NOT RARE. It used to happen all the time.

    So we are left with a choice. Get everyone (except the immune-compromised) vaccinated and accept that a very few will be injured by the vaccines, or forget all about the vaccines, with resulting millions of deaths. Per year. What do you think we should do?

  • Bored Now

    4 billion dollars has been paid out for “vanishingly rare” incidences

    About one in half a million doses. So, yeah that’s vanishingly rare. Of course, only a portion of those are going to be true vaccine injury events.

    it is known that less than 1% of the adverse reactions including death make it into VAERS

    Lulz. No. You would have had to fail statistics multiple times over to believe that the curve for reporting was uniform.

    There have been a few studies on VAERS and under-reporting. <1% refers to events like a rash. As soon as you move to seizures you're in the 24%-37% range. Once you move to events that have mandatory reporting like VDP you are into the 68% range. Of course, these are simply post hoc associations. So not, true positives.

  • bwf309

    LOL If the medical profession was not so brainwashed that vaccines are “safe and effective” “trust us we are Merck” they would see thousands of more serious reactions to vaccines. If you do not believe that serious reactions occur due to vaccines, you don’t see them.

    Here read a bit:

    http://vaccinepapers.org/about/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1615747/?page=3

  • jay

    The article is about Maine, and the post said letting kids die. I asked a simple question for a number as I have heard of one up to this point, and I live here.

    “Also, where exactly, in any holy book, does it say not to vaccinate your kids?”

    Not sure, maybe next to where it mentions “abortions” (and in the constitution for that matter)?

    I oppose vaccine mandates in the state of Maine.

  • jay

    Vaccines are drugs, and like all drugs, people have all sorts of bad reactions to them (rare or not). Luckily, I didn’t, and neither did my kid. But we can both take penicillin also, many people can’t. I think vaccination works in most people, but should not be mandated. So do you think that an unvaccinated kid “attending” and online school is a “threat”? Because they are banned too. If you think so, you must have some science to support banning them from their “School”.

  • Bored Now

    If you do not believe that serious reactions occur due to vaccines, you don’t see them.

    I believe serious reactions occur. I simply believe the HMO pharmacovigilance data over people who have no diagnostic ability and zero statistical accument. Hence they are vanishingly rare.

    So this doesn’t apply to me. However the corollary applies to you, who believe any person who shrieks “vaccine injury” must be correct. Even though they have no ability to diagnose and a block of wood would be stiff competition for them in the statistical sciences. Sort of like…who was that poster….hmmm….

    Here read a bit:

    Right. Vaccine papers. Thanks for reminding me. On the other hand the actual research you posted “The reporting sensitivities of two passive surveillance systems for vaccine adverse events” contains the same numbers I posted to you. So thanks for supporting my point.

  • jay

    How can that be? Doctors only advise us after studying peer reviewed publications and do not listen to sales pitches and marketing from the pharmaceutical companies, after all, they are the trained medical professionals and aren’t’ swayed by those ploys. But the peer reviewed studies couldn’t possible be fraudulent, as pharmaceutical companies and their products are the most highly regulated and scrutinized products in the world. Tested over and over for safety and efficacy. So I am confused as to how 100 people in Maine died from prescription opioids in 2017 alone. Where are all these people, with their outrage, worrying about people “potentially” dying in my state, when there ARE people dying now from this? Curious. Pharma Companies or the doctors? Which?

  • jay

    “Like it or not, driving with a seatbelt is mandated”
    The act of buckling a seatbelt does not cause injury, like getting a vaccine can (even as unlikely as you wish to report it).

    “Spark plugs and tires have different mandated safety standards”
    Different spark plugs don’t though. Apple and oranges, and you just proved my point.

    “Speeding tickets require a different system”
    Not than other moving violations, like running a red light. So no.

    “Because it probably doesn’t help”
    “Probably” – according to you. Got it. You keep talking about the Canadian system. Or maybe most vaccine injured people in Canada do not want to wait 10 years to see a doctor, so they jump across the border, to my state, to be seen this year.

    “No, we say you can’t infer causation from VAERS data because it is not that kind of data.”

    But this system works. Right

    “You use an alarm system and then call the police”

    And police then tell you that your house wasn’t really broken into, and that is just what happens with alarms.

    “Exactly how low does the burden of proof need to be”

    Afraid of a jury of your peers I see. I understand why.

    “It seems completely absurd that you didn’t know a jury of peers was a right granted to criminal defense not plantiffs.”

    Please show me where I said it was a right. But now that you mention it, if something is mandated upon you by the state, that should come with some understandable consumer rights, as you can’t opt out. Thanks for that.

  • Mike Stevens

    The paper cited gives the data that enables one to calculate the frequency of these events.
    EG: For seizures following DPT (whether due to it, or entirely coincidental) the rates are 0.0079%* using MSAEFI and 0.0079%** using VAERS with adjustments for under-reporting.

    Serious possible reaction sure, but very rare (1 in 800,000), which is our point precisely.
    (It’s also laughable that the bwf309 troll stated fewer than 1% of reactions are reported and used as his “evidence” a citation showing that for the more serious reactions the reporting efficiency is quite high (eg around 70% for paralysis and 30% for a seizure. It’s as though he can’t understand what he is reading, no surprises there)

    * 1323 events reported, 42% reporting efficiency, 39.8 million doses administered.
    **861 events reported, 24% reporting efficiency, 45.1 million doses administered.

  • jay

    CDC spokesperson actually says 3 have died from the measles since 2000. Should I post the quote again? Really? Ok, fine.

    Three people have died from measles since 2000. One in 2015 and two in 2003.

    We do not have precise data to answer your question regarding deaths due to MMR vaccination. CDC and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) monitor reports of adverse events and deaths that occur after vaccination using several different systems including the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). VAERS is a surveillance system co-administered by CDC and FDA that accepts reports of adverse health events (possible side effects) following vaccination. The system is not designed to determine whether a reported adverse event was caused by vaccination, but it does identify signals or trends that warrant further study. Since VAERS data cannot determine causality, we cannot use it to provide numbers of severe injuries or deaths caused by vaccination.

    A large body of evidence supports the safety of vaccines, and multiple studies and scientific reviews have found no association between vaccination and deaths except in rare cases.

    Benjamin Haynes
    Senior Press Officer
    Infectious Disease Media Team

  • Bored Now

    The act of buckling a seatbelt does not cause injury

    The mandate isn’t to simply buckle up a seatbelt (Your weasel words make me happy!). The mandate is to wear one. And wearing one will cause damage over some group of trips over a sufficiently large group of people, it’s just that it’s far less likely to cause an injury than wearing one. Vaccines will cause a problem over a sufficiently large group of people.

    Thanks. 🙂

    Apple and oranges, and you just proved my point.

    Nope. Your premise is “they are the same” and then your argument is to define them as the same. Sorry. That’s not how you make a point. 🙂

    “Probably” – according to you. Got it.

    Right but I’m responding to the assertion “Waaaaa why isn’t it the way I want it”. Without any rationale for why it’s necessitated. As I pointed out, you kind of lost this ages ago.

    You keep talking about the Canadian system.

    Mostly I talk about the system where I am. Not the Canadian system – medical systems are Provincial. I keep mentioning it because you keep unethically avoiding the question/point. If there are legitimate lawsuits that the NVICP are keeping down then either Canadians are super resistant to vaccine injury or your system provides more payouts. QED

    Or maybe most vaccine injured people in Canada do not want to wait 10 years to see a doctor, so they jump across the border, to my state, to be seen this year.

    Lulz. Irrelevant, and barely coherent with rage. Thanks.

    But this system works. Right

    For an alarm system, it does a good job. Again, the evidence — which you can’t reference because you would lose the point — says it catches subtle vaccine problems. People like you, not so much. 🙂

    And police then tell you that your house wasn’t really broken into, and that is just what happens with alarms.

    It’s amusing that you claimed earlier that calling of the police is what a good alarm system does…her’s the quote.

    And what do good alarm system do?? Sound an alarm AND ALERT THE POLICE.

    So you admited that by your definition VAERS is a good alarm system. Until you decided to unethically move the goalposts. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    That said, it’s not an unfair point, if it actually applied. Regular alarm systems definitely have a problem. They have too many false positives and police tend to ignore them. I’d never bother with a home alarm system personally.

    It’s not a good comparison for VAERS since it’s not signaling there’s a problem. Rather it’s people who are bad at math who imagine it does. It’s worth pointing out that false positives are a problem endemic to any sample based test. Sensitivity and specificity are things that can only be balanced in such an environment. If you decrease the false positive rate you increase the false negative rate and vice versa.

    Afraid of a jury of your peers I see. I understand why.

    Why would this have anything to do with me? Ohhhhhh! You still have the delusion that I’m a pharma cyber ninja plant. That’s precious. Keep it up.

    Please show me where I said it was a right.

    You made it sound like it was something people deserved. In other words a right. However your statement is still comical.

    You’ve dropped some points. So I assume you’ve conceded those. Thanks. 🙂

  • Bored Now

    Good point. I didn’t bother with the frequency calculation.

  • bwf309

    Nice dance around the fact that under 1% of vaccine reactions are reported. This is not me “diagnosing.” Showing your unerring faith in the medical community that brought you Thalidomide, HRT and cancer, Vioxx and cardiac fatality and opioid addiction and death. All approved by the incestuous CDC

  • bwf309

    Not sure who you are responding to Jay??? Vaccine injury is under reported and measles is a mild disease that confers lifetime immunity if contracted naturally. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=7503351

  • Bored Now

    Nice dance around the fact that under 1% of vaccine reactions are reported.

    How am I dancing? I cited the study you provided. Under 1% was for rash. Sorry, that was your data. You’re the one who thinks it’s reasonable to believe the reporting curve would be linear. Did you fail stats or just not take it?

    This is not me “diagnosing.”

    Doesn’t really matter. Does it? Every time you take someone saying “My (son|daughter|cat|dog|frog) was vaccine injured” and believe them. It’s your bias at work. I just look at the statistically strong data. I don’t care if it implicates vaccines or not.

    Thalidomide

    Definitely a bad drug however at the time teratogenicity testing was almost unheard of. Now it’s standard. Thanks to medical people pushing for this.

    HRT

    This is a great example of when something appeared to follow from physiology and experiment but large scale data analysis eventually showed was erroneous. Again, medical science at work.

    Vioxx

    Spotted by the medical community early on which pressured Merck to do a second study and eventually withdraw.

    See I don’t have faith in the CDC or anything. I just look at the data and follow the conclusions that are strongly implied. Provide statistically strong information about a problem with a vaccine and I’ll agree we remove it. Bring me people claiming they are vaccine injured but lacking any tool to determine this and I’ll not count that for very much.

  • Mark

    A mild disease?? It used to kill several hundred people every year.

    “In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.”

  • tomonthebay

    Thalidomide was a bad sedative/hypnotic but is a useful immunomodulator and an important drug in the treatment of multiple myeloma as well as some other conditions.

  • Bored Now

    Good point. I forgot it’s found new use.

  • tomonthebay

    Hey, I am the pharmacist. 🙂

  • FallsAngel

    Thalidomide was never approved in the US for morning sickness. Funny bwf309 would bring it up.

  • tomonthebay

    Thank God.

  • Bored Now

    Yeah, it was off-label use. I suppose it was part of the evil “medical community”. Sadly it was approved in Canada.

  • FallsAngel

    It wasn’t even used off label here. The people who used it in the US either got samples from their doctor (some were given out) or they got them from other countries. You do know one of the biggest complaints about the FDA is that they’re too slow to approve drugs!

  • Bored Now

    Finally, an admission.

    Awww, it’s cute when you’re so angry you get stupid. You know I’ve not once denied and several times mentioned directly to you that vaccine can harm people.

    So let’s mandate them.

    Wearing a seatbelt can cause harm over a sufficiently large group of trips and it’s mandated. You aren’t campaigning for seatbelt choice. Are you? Are you angry at that slight to your freedom? It would be amusing for me if you were.

    Anyway, just about anything has the potential for harm over a sufficiently large group. So you can keep whining about this point but you’re pretty much lost it.

    job not paid for by pharma.

    Lulz. Your delusions that people here are posting because they are paid for by pharmaceutical companies make me happy. 🙂 Thanks. Keep it up.

  • jay

    Your delusion that anyone from Canada can actually make me angry, make me happier than anything. Talk about little brother syndrome. Wait, hope your employer doesn’t come up with a vaccine for that!!! Though, that is move believable than you clowns actually NOT working for pharma.

  • otrame

    I don’t dismiss it. Of course they have compensation. SO WHAT? You act like that proves something.

    The CDC and equivalents in other countries are all lying, are they? But YOU know the truth? And you found this truth where?

    Those questions are rhetorical. Don’t bother answering. Whether your motives are pure or you just like feeling like you know something everyone else doesn’t know—a particularly horrible form of arrogance— you and people like you are doing enormous damage. And I know I won’t convince you to change your mind.

    There have always been a few selfish people who were unwilling to have their kids vaccinated. They would actually brag about how herd immunity would protect them. Herd immunity won’t be working much longer at the rate we are going.

    We’re probably not going to have to deal with smallpox, but all the other old enemies that you want to turn loose on us are still out there. The only good thing is that in the long run, once kids start dying or being brain damaged unnecessarily, people will… I was going to say come to their senses, but they don’t have any sense or we wouldn’t be where we are. But in the wake of that, kids will still be damaged or dead and everyone who encouraged anti-vaxx will be responsible.

  • Bored Now

    our delusion that anyone from Canada can actually make me angry, make me happier than anything.

    The evidence says otherwise there Jay. Of course, I can’t say for absolute certain what you’re feeling. I’m using how your posts became progressively more irrational as a proxy statistic. However all emotional interpretation uses proxies.

    So some examples, your argument moved from something objective the NVICP court system leaves people worse off. It isn’t in peoples best interest. Yet when you couldn’t make this point. You revert to an irrational point effectively “It’s just different, and I want it the same”. The first part isn’t even a point of contention and the second part isn’t an argument. Another would be taking something which was admitted from the start both in general and directly to you (vaccines over large groups will eventually hurt people) and pretending like I finally confessed something. Why would you say something so irrational? Even the statement you just made about “my employer” makes it clear you don’t really believe that I’m employed by a pharmaceutical company. You’re just using it as a derogatory epithet. Again, why say something irrational? Further irrational hyperbole about Canada – all pretty much points to anger.

    There are other intra-textual cues as well. Like progressively shorter sentences and shorter responses.

    It seems likely that you’re angry because you’re trying to hold on to a irrational belief. My advice is just let it go. Deal with the fact that there’s probably no reason for what you believe and that you’re probably wrong on most of it. You can see this in how you constantly move the goalposts. i.e. First something is a sign of a good security system. Then a system that meets that is, on the same criteria judged a bad security system. You fight about the number of deaths but can’t say what number would actually be compelling. These are all signs of someone trying to hang on to a belief. Not evaluating their belief.

    Set up some reasonable, objective criteria to change your mind. For example, everyone who’s posted here for a while knows I have reasonable, objective criteria to convince me that vaccines cause autism.

    Dude it’s your head but all this denial all this trying to hold on to the irrational. It’s not good for it. 🙂

  • jay

    “However all emotional interpretation uses proxies”

    So all of your proxies are emotional releases from years of you getting picked last in gym class for every team? Noooooooooow your posts make sense. Thanks again Canada!!!!!

  • jay

    ” Like progressively shorter sentences and shorter responses.”

    It’s called a family life. It’s what normal people have when they grow up. Tough to grasp in a basement of a relatives house, I know. Cats, alone, do not count though. But again, when you are not paid to respond and post, you fit it in when you can.

  • jay

    “You fight about the number of deaths but can’t say what number would actually be compelling”

    Let’s start with one from measles in Maine. GO!

  • Bored Now

    So all of your proxies are emotional releases from years of you getting picked last in gym class for every team? Noooooooooow your posts make sense

    The irrational anger. Awesome.

  • Bored Now

    It’s called a family life.

    Again, evidence doesn’t support that this is simply being busy. All the irrationality from you. All the changes to your text.

    Tough to grasp in a basement of a relatives house, I know. Cats, alone, do not count though. But again, when you are not paid to respond and post, you fit it in when you can.

    More anger but keep telling yourself (and especially everyone else) you’re not. 🙂

  • Bored Now

    So if one child dies from measles in Maine. You will start supporting mandates?

  • jay

    How about if one UNVACCINATED kid gets it’s, we can start the conversation. Since they will not be allowed in the school to infect everyone else. We can check off the vaccinated kid getting it, but they aren’t banded, because they can’t infect everyone else when they get measles.

  • jay

    Right. you provide enviable examples every day. Thanks AGAIN Canada!

  • Bored Now

    You’re still being irrational Jay. Thanks. 🙂

  • Bored Now

    How about if one UNVACCINATED kid gets it

    So that can’t happen regardless of how low vaccination drops? Why would you say that? There’s plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

    because they can’t infect everyone else when they get measles.

    They can infect every person who is in school who is either not vaccinated or for whom the vaccine has failed. That can be enough to result in serious harm depending on the size of the school.

  • jay

    Reality, currently one vaccinated student in the state of Maine with measles.

  • jay

    I will get rational then. Let’s ban all unvaccinated kids who “attend” online schools in the state of Maine so they don’t infect other students………….in………………the………………classroom? You claim you are an IT guy (and I will take you at your word). How does an unvaccinated kid infect and immunocompromised kid in an online class? Very rational

  • jay

    Glad they are here for everyone (who isn’t paid) to read.

  • Bored Now

    Reality, currently one vaccinated student in the state of Maine with measles.

    More like a half-truth. One person survives getting shot. Jay says: We should never take measures to avoid people getting shot because they are never fatal.

    As someone who probably knows a lot more than you do about threat modeling. That’s simply not how you respond to an event. You look at vulnerabilities. You ask, “What kind of bullet did we dodge there?”

    Lots of people are like you. Unwilling to be rational in the face of threats. Hiding behind a lack of casualties. Of course, a fair number of people would argue that once you have casualties it’s kind of late. Especially since you had so much warning. For you, should people die you can just say “Whoops” and it’s all better.

  • Bored Now

    Let’s ban all unvaccinated kids who “attend” online schools in the state of Maine so they don’t infect other

    …people.

    Again, I’ve pointed out that mandates aren’t necessitated but they’re hardly irrational and I take it you agree with mandates everywhere else? Just not in some tiny population of people taking online classes.

    You claim you are an IT guy (and I will take you at your word).

    I’m a IT Security guy. Different thing.

    How does an unvaccinated kid infect and immunocompromised kid

    through direct contact outside of school. Through indirect contact. Measles in particular is very contagious. Maybe homeschoolers really are isolated basement dwellers but of the people I’ve talked to online. They tell me it’s this enormous rainbow of social experience.

  • Bored Now

    Keep on being irrational. 🙂

  • FWIW, I don’t agree with vaccine mandates for online school either.

  • Bored Now

    I don’t have strong beliefs on it. If it was dropped (and honestly politicians might consider dropping it as a concession ) for such a small group. The harm would be small. It wouldn’t (if I lived in Maine) bother me. However, if the point I’m considering is: “Is it irrational to mandate them while we are mandating these others?” It’s hard to argue that it is.

    Presuming we are talking about purely online/homeschooled people (obviously people who do online schooling + classroom schooling would be expected to vaccinate). We expect, and desire children to intermix even if they are getting schooled at home. If we start expecting more students to do online work (some provinces in Canada are looking into this) then it’s reasonable to expect groupwork and meetups as part of online school. It’s already becoming a bigger part of what was once called the “nomadic” workforce. Are these as high-risk as population dense environments like classrooms and hallways? No. However, vaccinating is even lower risk and is in the child’s best interest.

    There’s a principle in security work that you don’t plan around what is. You remediate what is. You plan for what could be. So at one organization, I was advising was exposing data which would cost them thousands of dollars per incident if it leaked to all sorts of people that shouldn’t have access to it.

    It started with not administering accounts with a particular privilege very well. It was given to a lot of people, they didn’t rescind it after use and they also let people keep their credentials long after they had quit. However, this endangered none of their current environments. So their environment was secure.

    Over the years the environment changed. Databases got added, including one that granted all access for all databases to anyone who had that privilege. The person who implemented the database was aware of this but wasn’t aware of the number of people who had that credential. The infrastructure team knew the number of people AND the weakness in the database but decided that wasn’t a big deal because the database was being provisioned for a service that was only hosting non-privileged information. So their system was secure

    Eventually, someone implemented a new service and asked the DBA for a DB to keep their data. The DBA provisioned storage on this database. The DBA was aware that an account with a specific privilege would get total access BUT they looked at the data that was being stored and saw it wasn’t privileged. Still their system was secure

    Later, the end user started using that system to store sensitive information. They had now exposed data which carried with it a fine of thousands of dollars per incident and nobody knew it.

  • jay

    Again, irrational to think that pharma doesn’t have paid people posting? No that would NEVER happen. “Antivaxx” probably does too. People who say no one should get vaccinated are just as extreme and potentially dangerous and pro pharma vaccine mandate for everyone posters. Feeling a bit defensive I see……

  • jay

    In Maine, you can got to school online if you spend a bunch of time out of the state but live in the state and NEVER step foot in a classroom (i.e. sports training). I know 3 athletes in this situation. So again, mandates are sweeping and I just gave you one concrete example of why they are not thought out with the scientific proof people brag about.

    “I’m a IT Security guy. Different thing.”

    My sincerest apology.

  • Bored Now

    I know 3 athletes

    What about Timmy? He hardly hangs out with any kids? Or Susan who’s mom makes her wear a respirator? Dale is in school only four days out of five. These are all lower risk kids too. Why Jay? Why aren’t you accommodating them? They should be able to skip at least some of your evil sweeping mandates. 🙂

    See your argument is effectively: “X is lower risk than Y therefore, it’s irrational to apply Z to X & Y”. However that’s a point you have yet to make. Athletes still encounter other people they are still at risk. They still create a vulnerability when they have to join a classroom in college and head for whatever career they attain. Be it, superstardom or petrolium dispensation.

  • Bria Lapoint

    I dont care why theyre leaving Maine just glad that they are. Sure beats having someone go on about how *progressive Jesus * was while threatening to harm the poor class

  • My hovercraft is full of eels

    Is there anything the pro-disease cult morons aren’t confused by?

  • My hovercraft is full of eels

    Since when is zero% significant?

  • My hovercraft is full of eels

    Nothing you wrote is verifiable. That’s why you couldnt verify it.
    Your posts are giant steaming piles of used hay.

  • My hovercraft is full of eels

    Opposite day in the pro-disease cult again i see.
    Pointing and laughing.

  • My hovercraft is full of eels

    Theres a pro-disease cult moron.

  • My hovercraft is full of eels

    Nope. Yet another lie from the pro-disease cult

  • otrame

    Really? That’s all you’ve got? I didn’t expect you to actually answer my questions in the 2nd paragraph. As I said, they were rhetorical. But that’s all you have to say?

    *snort*

    Edited for a clarification.

  • jay

    “superstardom or petrolium dispensation”

    Still raw about getting picked last………………….Elsa said it best. Let it go!

  • Mike Stevens

    I’ll tell you what’s irrational, jay.
    ….Constantly claiming that legislation against ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXY and Z is “irrational” because legislation against Z may be irrational in some circumstances.

  • Mike Stevens

    Why just pick measles?
    Surely if you want a “body count” from diseases that can be prevented by vaccination you’d want to count deaths from all diseases that can be prevented by vaccination, and not just choose one you already know hasn’t caused any recent deaths in Maine because it has been very rare, thanks to vaccination?
    …just one more example of fallacious reasoning from you, jay.

  • Bored Now

    Still raw about getting picked last.

    Odd, comment to make as you’re the only one fixated on this. I mean I thought the examples I gave bracketed the options well. I guess your irrational anger isn’t done.

    Let me know when your tantrum ends and you can speak rationally.

  • jay

    Still waiting for the science/studies or the confirmed cases of unvaccinated students in online classes infecting immunocompromised kids. All of your equations are missing the final step. Times them by zero, because you have no cases. What does that equal? Doesn’t mater where they encounter people, this mandate in about KIDS IN SCHOOL. and protecting them in SCHOOL. And my examples are real Maine students. Your Timmy is made up, like, say, any documented case of an immunocompromised kids the state of Maine that has been infected by an unvaccinated kid. Here is what is real in the state right now. Unvaccinated students in the state with measles – Zero. Vaccinated kids in the state with measles – One. I know you don’t like sports analogies, but, scoreboard. Real life. Mandates do not work.

  • jay

    OK, pertussis, GO!!!!!

  • jay

    Because it shows a complete lack of thought and the sweeping natural of mandates. Like say, annexing a country to another hostile country, in the name of peace. How did that work out? Get it?????

  • Bored Now

    Still waiting for the science/studies

    …of what exactly? Or is this going to be like when I ask you other questions. You just pretend they didn’t get asked?

    or the confirmed cases of unvaccinated students in online classes infecting immunocompromised kids.

    So again the question you refuse to notice is: Do you believe that can’t happen no matter how low vaccine coverage gets. Seems like a simple thing to ask for and yet it’s so hard for you to talk about. Why is either unvaccinated students who are using online classes getting an infectious disease or infecting immunocompromised children necessary for mandates to be rational? If mandates can be rational without these things. Then you don’t appear to have a point.

    this mandate in about KIDS IN SCHOOL

    Not exactly. It appears to be a reaction to a few things: Low numbers of vaccinated kids, increasing numbers of people opting out and outbreaks elsewhere. Sure schools are probably the highest risk areas but they’re not the only risk.

    And my examples are real

    Sure, thy’re real examples of risk. I already pointed out how they increase risk. Granted they probably don’t increase risk as much as a unvaccinated child who attends a brick-and-mortar school. However, the question is still: Are these measures rational even if they don’t adjust for every change in risk? The answer appears to be yes. You can’t seem to provide an argument against this point. So it stands

    Your Timmy is made up,

    Yes, and so were all the people in the threat models worked on for anthrax attacks. Which were used to come up with risk mitigation strategies and emergency responses. Are you arguing that no risk mitigation measures can be taken without people actually dying at your door? If so, then you don’t really seem to understand the point of avoiding risks.

    So it doesn’t really matter if Timmy is real or not. Timmy makes an important point. Your argument is like most of the things you say: poorly defined. However, it either implies that either every risk mitigation needs to be absolutely perfectly balanced with the level of risk in the subject or you have to provide an argument as to why this particular difference in risk is meaningful and then why it doesn’t apply to anyone else who argues that they too are in a similar risk profile.

    I know you don’t like sports analogies

    Like the claim that I work for a pharmaceutical company this seems to be just another attempt at what?…Expressing your irrational anger? Maybe just to be injurious? Anyway, hope you’re a better parent than you are an online persona.

  • Raging Bee

    Still waiting for the science/studies or the confirmed cases of
    unvaccinated students in online classes infecting immunocompromised
    kids.

    And I’m guessing you’re still waiting for proof that the Earth is round, right?

  • Raging Bee

    It’s religious demagogues doing what they do best: pandering to irrational mindsets and thought-processes.

  • Raging Bee

    Everything I wrote is verifiable…

    So where’s the cite we can use to verify it?

    Bluff: called.

  • Raging Bee

    When people saw the Vaxxed bus parked in their neighborhood, they lined up to tell their stories.

    Yup, that’s a cherry-picked sample, and not at all representative of the overall population.

  • jay

    Hold on. You just compared student who attend online classes infecting other kids in that online “class”, to believing the earth is flat, but it’s me who doesn’t get it?? On a side note. why don’t you explain the “Pac-Man Effect” to everyone?????

  • jay

    “hope you’re a better parent than you are an online persona.”

    My online anger??? Again, am I supposed to be mad because you question my parenting? An experience you will not have until you learn how to split in half to reproduce? You just talk about risk here and risk there, all the while avoiding the real life examples that I present. Because that is all you have. Presumptions and fear. Again. Unvaccinated kids in Maine with measles – Zero
    Vaccinated kids in Maine with measles – One
    Your risk analysis did not work. Like when you tried to walk down the halls in high school when there were less kids in the hallway, so you wouldn’t get thrown in a locker. Were the odds better that it wouldn’t happen to you? Sure. But you still got thrown in. Thankfully, you have the internet to try to compensate and heal old wounds. It’s awesome! I love it. Keep it up!

  • Raging Bee

    Nope, I did not make the comparison you say I did. You have no clue what you’re talking about.

  • jay

    Examples in Maine again please? Real numbers are………………….

  • jay

    “And I’m guessing you’re still waiting for proof that the Earth is round, right”

    Because I asked when, ever, an online student infected an immunocompromised student in an online “class”? Oh, so you must know that answer then? How many times has it happened? Enlighten everyone…….

  • Bored Now

    My online anger???

    No I said “expressing your irrational anger” and I more pointed out that your odd irrational attacks are indicative of anger.

    am I supposed to be mad because you question my parenting?

    It’s kind of interesting how you are reading the comment that I hope you’re a better parent than you are an online persona.

    You just talk about risk here and risk there, all the while avoiding the real life
    examples that I present.

    No, I pointed out exactly how your examples increase risk (over being vaccinated). Sorry if you didn’t read that part. I talk about risk because that’s the point of preventative measures. Are you claiming this isn’t a preventative measure.

    Like when you tried to walk down the halls in high school when there were less kids in the hallway, so you wouldn’t get thrown in a locker. Were the odds better that it wouldn’t happen to you? Sure. But you still got thrown in. Thankfully, you have the internet to try to compensate and heal old wounds.

    Wow. 🙂 just let all that anger out. I have no idea what happened to you but maybe talking to a counsellor might help.

    Again, you haven’t provided any argument against the point that these mandates are rational. So I guess that’s where this stands.

  • Bored Now

    You sure you’re done? Sure you don’t need to imagine something negative about me before you can continue this conversation?

    Examples in Maine

    are unnecessary if you believe action can be taken before someone puts a corpse in your lap. You avoid addressing this because it puts the argument in the right place. Namely answering the question: Are these preventative measures rational?

    If you already agree they are rational. You can just concede.

  • jay

    No, this mandate is not rational in my state. I am vaccinated, and so is my kid. So I believe in vaccination. That does not mean that we need a mandate in this state.

  • Bored Now

    No, this mandate is not rational in my state.

    Would that be the state of confusion? I can see how that might impede considering this rational. Anyway you’re awful slow at providing an argument that actually addresses the idea that these mandates are irrational. Can you provide an argument that isn’t effectively “All acts intended to remediate the risk of VPD must exactly match the risk the individual poses.” or effectively “I acknowledge no risks without a corpse”.

    Otherwise you really have no reason to believe it’s irrational. Feelings and faith are fine but they are feelings and faith.

    I am vaccinated, and so is my kid. So I believe in vaccination.

    One doesn’t necessitate the other as has been demonstrated to you. Just sayin’

  • brothersun

    It proves that serious vaccine-injury and death is way more common than you think. And, even if it’s only 5%, that’s a massive amount of injured children you are ignoring. I understand that irrational fear of measles and flu are causing you to think that there is a positive risk-benefit ratio to vaccination, but when you see real magnitude of vaccine-induced injury, you will have to re-evaluate.

  • Raging Bee

    If it’s 5%, then you’re lying when you say it’s much worse; and no, no one is “ignoring” anything here. That’s two lies in one sentence, which is more than enough reason to dismiss you for lack of credibility. Go fr*ck yourself.

  • sabelmouse

    🙂