Christian psychologist calls evangelical Trump supporters ‘fools’

Christian psychologist calls evangelical Trump supporters ‘fools’ December 5, 2019
Image via YouTube

BACK in September 2019, Dr Chris Thurman wrote two op-eds for the The Globe Post. The first was entitled ‘There’s a Sociopath in the White House‘ and the second was headed ‘Evangelicals Who Supported Trump to Gain Political Power Made Egregious Mistake‘.  The latter accused these evangelicals of ‘making a deal with the devil’.

Evangelicals made a deal with the devil when they supported Trump. They promised to support Trump for president, even though they knew he is not a good person, in exchange for being dealt back into the political power game of determining the moral direction the country is headed. In doing so, evangelicals chose political power over Christian values.

Then, in a Facebook post on October 7, Thurman apologised for posting his op-eds on FB – and said he wouldn’t do so again, at least for a while. He wrote:

I should have never allowed The Globe Post to title my op-ed in such a way that evangelicals were accused of having made a deal with the devil (literally or figuratively) to vote for Trump. I do not believe they did …

He added:

I can see now that my op-eds stirred up disunity in the body of Christ, something that we as Christians are never supposed to do. As the body of Christ, we are to be unified in loving and serving God and each other. My op-eds caused division and were hurtful to people that I deeply care about who deeply care about me. I apologize for causing disunity among my brothers and sisters in Christ and ask you to forgive me.

If his followers thought that would be the end of the matter and that Thurman would now shut the hell up they were dead wrong, for yesterday the Christian Post carried another of his op-eds – and this one’s a real doozy!

In it he says:

I believe evangelicals who support Donald Trump are being both blind and foolish to do so and that labeling them as such is not sinful but appropriate and necessary. By support, I’m not referring to evangelicals who voted for Trump in 2016. I’m referring to those evangelicals who continue to hold Trump up as a great leader, say he is God’s chosen one for the presidency, applaud his appalling words and actions, ignore his glaring moral defects, and enable his dangerous presidency to continue by giving him their time, talents, and treasures.

As a Christian, I don’t have much hope that evangelicals who enthusiastically support Trump will have ears to hear what I say in this piece. My personal interactions with enthusiastic Trump-supporting evangelicals have, in general, been unpleasant and involved very little willingness to ‘Come now, let us reason together’ (Isaiah 1:18). Nevertheless, I feel prompted to comply with two verses in Scripture, ‘speaking the truth in love’ (Ephesians 4:15) and ‘If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault’ (Matthew 18:15) when it comes to this matter.

Images via YouTube

He then identified the “Four Evangelical Enablers of the Trumpocalypse” as, from left, Ralph Reed, former head of the Christian Coalition and founder and chairman of the Faith and Freedom Coalition, Jerry Falwell Jr, President of Liberty University, Franklin Graham, President and CEO of Samaritan’s Purse and The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Vice President Mike Pence.

Ralph, Jerry, Franklin, and Mike, my brothers in Christ, I believe you are being blind and foolish to support Trump. From my perspective, you are significantly misaligned with what Scripture says about how we as Christians are supposed to deal with someone like our current president. You got ‘bewitched’ by an exploitative, pathologically lying snake oil salesman, and your unrestrained support of Trump has not only turned off untold numbers of non-believers to the cause of Christ but brought great dishonor on Christianity.

Thurman then asks:

Is Trump Morally Ill Beyond Normal Standards of Human Decency? The simple answer is yes. Given how narcissistic and sociopathic Trump is, he fundamentally doesn’t believe that the rules of moral behavior or social norms apply to him. That is the primary reason he has spent his adult life breaking one biblical commandment, federal law, and social norm after another. As much as people hoped Trump would take a turn for the better after becoming president, he has only grown more mentally and morally disturbed and defiant since assuming the powers of the presidency …

Trump is an incredibly arrogant person. Perhaps the most arrogant statement he ever uttered during his run for office was ‘I alone can fix it’ when referring to our country’s many problems. Trump has said he is ‘the chosen one,’ done more in a shorter period of time than any other president, ‘so great looking and smart, a true Stable Genius’  and someone who knows more than anyone else about technology, money, taxes, ISIS, campaign finance, renewables, courts, steelworkers, real estate, construction, banks, trade, nuclear weapons, lawsuits and a myriad of other topics than those who are experts in these areas.

There is very little, if anything, that is humble about Trump. When questioned about whether or not he had ever asked God for forgiveness, Trump said he didn’t think he had because he hadn’t done anything bad enough to warrant God’s forgiveness.

Another core aspect of Trump’s moral pathology is his lack of compassion and empathy for other people’s emotional pain and suffering. Examples of his lack of empathy for the feelings of others are too numerous to go into here but certainly include his abusive verbal attacks on people who disagree with him, his cold-heartedness about ripping children out their parent’s arms at our southern border, and telling the wife of a soldier who was killed in battle that her husband knew what he had signed up for in becoming a soldier.

Thurman ends his VERY lengthy op-ed by quoting from one of the mental health professionals who contributed to The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, psychologist John Gartner.

This is one of many of the statements in the book that evangelicals would be wise to listen to and act on: ‘Trump is a profoundly evil man exhibiting malignant narcissism. His worsening hypomania is making him increasingly more irrational, grandiose, paranoid, aggressive, irritable, and impulsive. Trump is bad, mad, and getting worse. He evinces the most destructive and dangerous collection of psychiatric symptoms possible for a leader. The worst-case scenario is now our reality.’

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  • Jim Jones

    ‘Trump is a profoundly evil man exhibiting malignant narcissism. His worsening hypomania is making him increasingly more irrational, grandiose, paranoid, aggressive, irritable, and impulsive. Trump is bad, mad, and getting worse. He evinces the most destructive and dangerous collection of psychiatric symptoms possible for a leader. The worst-case scenario is now our reality.’

    So, pretty much perfect for a Republican right?

  • Raging Bee

    So…how long will it take him to back down and apologize for this one?

  • Carstonio

    I would have liked to seen a discussion of white evangelicalism’s roots as a slaveowner theology, and its later recordof rationalizing Jim Crow and segregation. The evangelicals didn’t sell their souls by following Trump. Instead they were primed for a leader like him to come along.

  • Tawreos

    I should have never allowed The Globe Post to title my op-ed in such a way that evangelicals were accused of having made a deal with the devil (literally or figuratively) to vote for Trump. I do not believe they did …

    Could someone have gotten the title from the first sentence of that op-ed which reads:
    Evangelicals made a deal with the devil when they supported Trump.

    If you weren’t willing, or weren’t able to stand behind your words before why would anyone listen to you a second time?

  • Raging Bee

    Upvoted in sadness. I guess even experienced psychologists can let themselves be bulled and cowed.

  • Paul Douglas

    Whew!

  • https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d4007b3af6e7c8d1cd4c968ae510d2d32f24967d34ce38862a0226c9f24e153d.jpg

    Has anyone ever heard a functional adult ever say something like this about themselves? This strikes me as deeper and more dangerous than mere narcissism. He’s developed a god complex. The exact last trait any leader should have, particularly one with nukes at his disposal.

  • Yup. He’s a symptom not a cause.

  • WallofSleep

    “… I don’t have much hope that evangelicals who enthusiastically support Trump will have ears to hear what I say in this piece.”

    Too true, but thanks for trying anyway.

  • Erik1986

    The Wizard of Oz. But he was actually benevolent. Not the case with Trump (DUH, like I needed to add that caveat).

  • Raging Bee

    This is so transparently silly, even by Trump standards, that I strongly suspect Trump is posturing for his base in such a way as to reassure the Turks that he really doesn’t mean a word of it.

  • Brian Curtis

    The irony is that the character traits Thurman describes (arrogant, grandiose, unfeeling, aggressive, gathering a cult-like following) should sound familiar to evangelicals: the Bible ascribes them to the false prophet who will come to mislead and hoodwink the gullible in the last days of mankind, aka the Antichrist.

  • Brian Curtis

    As you’d expect, most of his commenters are engaged in defensive reactions ranging from “but whatabout Clinton?” to “You’re helping Satan with this divisive message” and “Oh yeah, so who did YOU vote for, smart guy?” Some are admitting outright that “Who cares–nothing matters except abortion, and Trump has promised to end abortion, so we have to support him.”

  • DoctorDJ
  • DoctorDJ
  • I tend to suspect that he genuinely believes that he possesses “great and unmatched wisdom.” He always acts like he knows better than everyone about everything.

  • jntaylor1701

    The thing that gets me is that Evangelicas had a real bible thumper to elect; Ted Cruz. But instead, they voted for the most un-Christ like man they could. Something tells me the evangelicals did not really want a christian for POTUS. Not sure what it was, and it was not “economic insecurity” either.

    /I know, they are just racists, hateful, hypocritical a-holes.

  • jntaylor1701

    Trump has his finger on a button that can wipe out the human race. Sleep well everyone.

  • I’m referring to those evangelicals who continue to hold Trump up as a great leader, say he is God’s chosen one for the presidency

    Clearly Dr. Thurman, not unlike most Christians, doesn’t actually know his scripture as well as he seems to think he does.
    Romans 13:1 – “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
    Yeah Chris, it’s right there in your bible. According to Paul’s Letter to the Romans, Trump absolutely IS God’s chosen one for President. So who are these evangelicals supposed to believe Chris, you or the inerrant word of God?
    This highlights the central problem with scripture; it can be used to simultaneously condone or condemn anything. IMO, true understanding of Christian scripture and its inherent internal contradictions creates more atheists than any other single factor.

  • Steven Watson

    I note this fellow approves Jacob cheating Esau of his birthright. He also attempts to shift the blame to the newspaper for the phrase “deal with the devil”, his words and not the paper’s, while making an unctuous apology that pretty much rolls back everything he said.

    While it might be nice that he is making these statements, he is still providing the water for this fish to swim in. The man is a hypocrite.

    While I don’t agree President Trump is “evil” or a “sociopath” he does appear to have suffered some neurological impairment that has affected his inhibitions and his language skills. I have known several people with brain injuries that behaved similarly to the President. There is something clearly wrong but what it actually is can only be determined by a full-blown neurological assay. Making diagnoses via clips from NBC is hardly credible from a from a layperson. From someone who is supposed to have professional qualifications it is improper to say the least.

    I’ve listened all the way thtough to several of the Presidents speeches to rallies and conventions. He certainly knows how to work an audience, I would probably vote for him myself if I were a US citizen based on those alone. But equally I have watched long pieces of footage or read transcripts of his speeches where he has lapsed into word-salad.

    So no, it doesn’t matter whether I agree with him or not politically; whether his Presidency has been more for the good or more for the bad. He needs to be medically assessed and if necessary, removed from office on medical grounds if there is even a possibility of him being mentally impaired in some way that is dangerous to the nation. This is a job for medical and psychiatric professionals at the direction of Congress, however. The present attempts at impeachment smack far too much of political shenanigans for partisan profit. Enough of the nation appears to be alienated enough already to do long term damage to the Republic.

  • Steven Watson

    My rule of thumb is Romans, 1st & 2nd Corinthians, and Galatians are the only Christian texts to be taken seriously as they are the only ones that we can say with confidence were actually written by an actual apostle of Christ, however you define Christ. All the rest is extremely dubious and late; a great deal of it is out and out forgery. Even then you are dealing with occasional writings delivered with a specific purpose to specific communities in what amounted for Paul and his cult to a state of emergency; temporary instructions in the context of a world that was about to end. It is all well past its sell-by date.

  • COMALite J

    But who was God’s Chosen One for President between noon EST on January 20, 2009 and 11:59:59 am on January 20, 2017? And how well did they support him?

  • Steven Watson

    So win-win then.

  • Huh… I’ve always regarded Paul’s letters exactly opposite of that, but my context for that was the message in each. What you said makes more sense though. Thanks for that!

  • COMALite J

    I want to make up a bunch of these as T-shirts and/or hand-held signs suitable for rallies, and hand them out for free en masse to the attendees at the next televised Trump rally (imagine it with text centered and the same color as the logo, and in a big block-letter font):

    The BIBLE PROPHESISES the REPUBLICAN PARTY!!

    ―→ REVELATION 17:3 ←―

    That logo is straight from the official GOP twitter feed. It’s also on their official Instagram page and on most any Press Release page of the desktop (not mobile) version of their official GOP.com website.

  • COMALite J

    That may be more true than you know (though the False Prophet is a different entity from the Great Beast who is often mis-identified as “the Antichrist).

    I want to make up a bunch of these as T-shirts and/or hand-held signs suitable for rallies, and hand them out for free en masse to the attendees at the next televised Trump rally (imagine it with text centered and the same color as the logo, and in a big block-letter font):

    The BIBLE PROPHESISES the REPUBLICAN PARTY!!

    ―→ REVELATION 17:3 ←―

    That logo is straight from the official GOP twitter feed. It’s also on their official Instagram page and on most any Press Release page of the desktop (not mobile) version of their official GOP.com website.

  • Well yeah, what else would you expect? Like I said, most folks who wear the label “Christian” neither know nor understand their own scriptures nearly as well as they like to think they do. IMO, most Christians treat their “faith” like being a fan of a sports team, in that it is a convenient community to attach one’s self to, but most aren’t really that invested in it. Oh but let someone talk smack about their team & watch them get indignant. We treat politics like a team sport now too. It’s sad.

  • Steven Watson

    One head, two “horns” and no woman. I applaud the effort; but it wouldn’t wash.

  • Steven Watson

    Thanks, glad you found it useful.

  • Steven Watson

    Another thought. It is ostensibly a letter and being sent over a considerable distance. There was not even the semblance of laws to protect the post. Another motif for including that is to say “We are innocuous and not a threat. Please don’t kill us.” if the letter should fall into the wrong hands.

  • Adonis

    Educated to the point of insanity.

  • Agreed. Me too.

  • Lektrikwire

    FDR, Eisenhower, McArthur and Patton all had mistresses during the war. Let’s give the Nazis and the Emperor a do-over …

  • persephone

    He’s never had a brain injury. He’s a narcissist with sociopathic tendencies, which have been worsened by those around him and the failure of anyone in power to put a stop to him.

    ETA: Donald Trump is a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich man, and a weak man’s idea of a strong man.

  • e4z21w4law

    While not entirely untrue, the timing of this piece is highly suspect, on the heels of Dems about to lose their impeachment drama. Especially since he quotes one of the Dem army of psychologists who’ve contributed towards trying to get Trump impeached for no just cause. I have my own issues w/ Trump, but his personality flaws are not on the list…yet that’s what makes up the majority of this man’s complaint. Every leader has personality flaws, get over it. It’s his actions that matter. It’s also worth noting what important stuff is NOT on his list of complaints, and shame on him for that.

  • JohnD64

    What is of the devil is a Christian who practices in a profession of psychology.

  • persephone

    I find the title apostle dubious for someone who never met Christ.

  • LP

    Why don’t you just read Jesus words.

  • LP

    Me too.

  • markr1957

    Which words did Jesus write down himself? Not a single one!

  • persephone

    The photo where he photoshopped his head onto Rocky’s body made clear just how delusional he is, and he can be this delusional because they’re all propping him up.

  • Other Brother Daryl

    All scripture is inspired by God….2 Tim 3:16

    The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us…John 1:14

  • Other Brother Daryl

    Jim Jones of Jonestown fame? I recall he was a socialist, and had all these traits Thurman supposes Trump has and you suppose all Republicans have.

  • Jim Jones

    James Earl Jones. I use Jim Jones to weed out the dimwits.

  • YeahRightPal

    Sounds more like a “Christian” that NEEDS a psychologist.

    Perhaps if he spent more time in the Bible than in psychobabble industry journals, he would realize that God has an uncanny tendency to pick the most unlikely people to do His work.

  • gvravel

    “When questioned about whether or not he had ever asked God for forgiveness, Trump said he didn’t think he had because he hadn’t done anything bad enough to warrant God’s forgiveness.” Yep, this alone should have been enough to wise Evangelicals up.
    Evangelicals always point to the notion that God chooses “imperfect vessels” and they give Paul the Apostle as an example. To compare the 2 is like saying that Paul never converted. In the Bible, Paul recognizes his need for forgiveness and a savior. Trump apparently never has.

  • gvravel

    Evangelicals always point to the notion that God chooses “imperfect vessels” and they give Paul the Apostle as an example. To compare the 2 is like saying that Paul never converted. In the Bible, Paul recognizes his need for forgiveness and a savior. Trump apparently never has.

  • markr1957

    All of Timothy has been proved beyond any possible doubt to be fake, so your source sucks. Try again.

  • GR17

    Evangelicals (of any ethnicity) support Trump because he recognizes and fights for what they care about. Evangelicals cling to Gospel based values, hence the name evangelical. What’s more, in addition to the sermon on the mount, much is said in Gospels about classic morality and the sanctity of life despite Mayor Pete’s self-serving interpretations.

  • Pofarmer

    So he thinks Mike Pence is the good guy here? Yeah. Wouldn’t trust they guy as far as I could throw him.

  • Paul

    Who did Christ sit and eat with? Religious Arrogance has always been used by fascists in history.

  • Brian Curtis

    Despite Trump openly acting in direct opposition to all those values? How does that work? When you say he “fights for what they care about,” why not just come out and say it: he attacks the people they hate, and that’s what matters.

  • Brian Curtis

    I seem to recall the evangelicals going nuts about a more recent President having a consensual affair… something about “character,” which apparently mattered to them so much back in the 1990s that they felt it essential to call for impeachment.

  • Brian Curtis

    Nothing a religious nut hates more than education, yessir!

  • Brian Curtis

    His actions have included attacking allies, pardoning war criminals, separating families, breaking treaties, cutting aid to the needy, pandering to the rich, mocking the handicapped, locking children in cages, withdrawing healthcare, obstructing due process, and provoking military action and hostility around the globe. So yes, let’s definitely judge him by his actions.

  • Brian Curtis

    Funny how evangelicals never gave Obama that same grace… you know, the guy who was an actual Christian.

  • fifthdentist

    The Bible is more full of pscyobullshyt than anything the coked out drems of Sigmund Freud ever could have been.

  • justme

    I thought we were supposed to pray for our Leaders? And, Jesus said bless and curse not. My discernment immediately identified this guy as a fool. He sounds pretty unstable for a shrink; he apologizes for offending and then lays in on the prez again. Medication time.

  • Obscurely

    You must be a Scientologist then?

  • gemini bowie

    Evangelical xianity is a culture of sexual abuse.

    And evangelical xian MAGAtes embrace Trump. He helps to legitimize their behavior. https://media1.giphy.com/media/8aQon8mF1wg5q/giphy.gif

  • Obscurely

    With respect, did you apply that same scripture during Bill Clinton’s impeachment?

  • Well I’m atheist, so no.
    With respect, did you not read my entire comment? Your question leads me to think that you believe I am some conservative coming in here to defend the Criminal-In-Chief or those who claim he is President through Divine Providence.

  • Ahh, but there you go trying to argue logic & reason against faith, and that’s always a losing battle.

  • Carl Wiggins

    There are just way too many folks here in the United States who just don’t care. They will not take the time and or effort to vote. If 40% of the voters next year continue this trend next year we are going to be stuck with 4 more (or maybe more who knows) years with this maniac. If Trump as done anything worthwhile it is to show just how evil and destructive Christianity can be, especially white evangelicalism.

  • Luka

    Christian psychologist?

    Um there’s nothing rational about blindly worshipping a god that prohibited the knowledge of good and evil

  • Obscurely

    I stand corrected, sir! Good to know anti-Trump Christians like me and atheists can stand together against a corrupt lawless president.

  • Pat Gustafson

    The bible also says there are many Anti-Christs.

  • Pat Gustafson

    Nope. Anyone who thinks they are the greatest, the smartest, the best, the top, etc and brags about it incessantly is mentally unstable.

  • Pat Gustafson

    I know people like that. Then we should ask them, if Al Capone (fill in the blank) was against abortion and gay marriage would you still vote for him???

  • Pat Gustafson

    Characterological issues? Wow, a new word was created.

  • Boglify

    So what’s new that we didn’t already know?

  • LP

    And….

  • markr1957

    So, at best all you have is hearsay. At worst you have a fairy tale. Not worth wasting a lifetime paying someone to lie to me over such a weak story.

  • Brian Curtis

    Which reminds us of all the Christian leaders who prayed (loudly) for Obama…. to die. Again: double standards will always come back to bite the hypocrite.

  • Brian Curtis

    And they’d say, “Of course.” With that puzzled expression that says “What’s wrong with you, isn’t that obvious?”

  • Wesley Holl

    If only the Christian trump supports really knew what the connects with the devil here really are. Trump is one of the false prophets warned about in your own freakin book, it’s as obvious as day. You are so bent on hate and proving your opinions that you chose to ignore the obvious, woe to you hypocrite.

  • BlueJew

    Apparently he’s long been a bloody megalomaniac, and now, his having actually ascended to the presidency can only have strengthened his delusional belief in himself as more capable and important than anybody else.

  • Brian Shanahan

    I think this fellow’s posturing is more an attempt to have his cake & eat it too than a genuine revulsion of what Dumbo is and does. If the latter were the case he’d have left whiye evangelism long ago.

  • Brian Shanahan

    Saul of Tarsus wasn’t an apostle, by his* own words he never met Yeshua ben Yosef.

    *If we accept that any of the epistles were written by him.

  • Brian Shanahan

    Romanes eunt domen?

  • Brian Shanahan

    I wouldn’t characterise being an Illinois Nazi as being a character flaw. But then again, I respect the rule of law and want good government.

  • Brian Shanahan

    And if you spent more time in the real world, you’d realise that a privative doesn’t have agents to do its work.

  • Annette G.

    And those are his good points.

  • Annette G.

    If Trump is the chosen one or in the bible it would be as the antiChrist.

  • Other Brother Daryl

    And it’s an intelligent move to associate yourself with America’s largest mass murderer? Please.

  • Other Brother Daryl

    And the gospel of John is fake too? Pull your head out of the fog.

  • No worries

  • COMALite J

    Read the following verses. The seven heads and ten horns are explicitly stated to be symbolic, and it even says what they represent (or at least the first level of the symbolism): the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth, and the ten horns are ten kings that issue forth from this Third Beast (which is neither of the Two Beasts of Revelation Chapter 13) that reign one after the other.

    Funny thing: the right-wing Christian Nationalists, Dominionists, etc. have in the past few years taken to calling their primary goal “the Seven Mountains Mandate,” after the seven areas of society that they claim that Christians must conquer before Christ can return for the Second Coming. Here’s a certain ultra-Dominionist (Third Wave of the Holy Spirit aka “Joel’s Army”) minister, Pastor Thomas Muthee of a certain African country, preaching on this very subject. He ends with anointing as the Lᴏʀᴅ’s Anointed a certain right-wing political figure in her Wasilla Church which is itself a Third Waver church (the Third Wave churches largely started as Assemblies of God, but the “mainstream” Assemblies of God denomination [itself heavily steeped in Dominionism and the even more extremist Christian Reconstructionism {founded by the late Rousas John “R. J.” Rushdoony and now headed by his son-in-law Gary North, and mainly operating through the Chalcedon Foundation, and dedicated to the goal of replacing the U,S, and all other Constitutions with Old Testament Bible Law}] kicked the Third Waver churches such as the Wasilla Church out of their denomination for being too extremist even for them!):

    The phrase “seven mountains” appears nowhere else in Revelation, or indeed the entire Bible, other than 17:9 in reference to the seven heads of the Third Beast, the Scarlet-Coloured Beast. So why would the ultra-right-wing Christians that have aligned themselves with the GOP to the extent of anointing politicians of that party to take over the Mountains of Politics and Government, and by extension the other five as well, use that imagery to name their “Mandate” after? Why would the GOP change to that logo a mere five years ago? Their classic one that they’d used for decades looked like this:

    Even that was a Beast, with upside-down (and thus Satanic or dark occult) five-pointed stars (symbols [“names”] of blasphemy). But at least it wasn’t a Scarlet-Coloured Beast, and by not having the logo inside a circle, the stars weren’t inside a circle either. Now they are, bringing them that much closer to being true Satanic inverted pentagrams like on the logos of the Church of Satan and the Satanic Temple. Why?

    (Contrary to what some websites claim, the official GOP elephant logo never had the stars right-side-up as they have been [four of them] on the classic Democratic donkey’s back [also the donkey, while still a beast, is at least portrayed positively in the Bible, being present at or even participating in multiple miracles and glorious events, including Balaam’s donkey speaking to him to warn him of the then-unseen-by-him sword-wielding angel in his path, the very-pregnant-with-Our-Savior Virgin Mary riding a donkey from Nazareth to Bethlehem so her husband could pay taxes, and ⅓ century later that then-fetal Savior, now an adult, rode a donkey colt through the gate into Jerusalem on His way to His Passion, Crucifixion, and Resurrection ― not so the Republican elephant since the only description of an elephant-like beast in the Bible is the “behemoth” in Job and that’s generally traditionally considered a demonic beast] ― the picture often shown of a GOP logo with right-side-up stars as an example of the logo prior to 2000 is actually from the cover of an unofficial history of the GOP and not their then-official logo. Actual campaign materials including buttons dating back to the Nixon campaign show upside-down stars, and so do official banners and podium placards that GOP Presidents and candidates have spoken at on video, even well before 2000.)

    The Woman is stated to be, according to the name written on her forehead: “Mʏsᴛᴇʀʏ, Bᴀʙʏʟᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ Gʀᴇᴀᴛ: ᴛʜᴇ Mᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ᴏꜰ Hᴀʀʟᴏᴛs ᴀɴᴅ Aʙᴏᴍɪɴᴀᴛɪᴏɴs ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ Eᴀʀᴛʜ.” “Babylon the Great” is stated repeatedly in Revelation to be a “great city,” and according to the principle of Bible prophetic symbolism that something smaller always represents something larger, the “city” is most likely something similar or analogous to a city, but much larger than a city: a nation.

    In short, the three things you mentioned are outright stated to be symbolic. Not so the fact of the Beast being a literal beast, nor the “names [symbols] of blasphemy,” nor being scarlet-coloured. And according to the principles of Bible literalism which these people often adhere to, if the Bible doesn’t specifically say that something is symbolic, then it’s literal. And the modern (late 3Q 2014–) official GOP logo is a literal Scarlet-Coloured Beast, complete with symbols (“names”) of blasphemy.

    Remember the Ten Horns = Ten Kings part? If the horns are kings and thus individual persons, that means that the Beasts themselves are not individual persons. The very use of the “Beast” imagery itself implies that they’re not individual Persons. So what are they? If individual Persons comprise individual components (such as horns) of the Beasts, that makes the Beasts themselves Aggregate Persons.

    “Aggregate Personhood” is a legal term. It includes Corporate Personhood, and all other aggregates that legally act as Persons, including not only corporations (whether for- or not-for-profit) but also trusts, unions, incorporated communities, incorporated churches / denominations, and yes, incorporated political parties. An Aggregate Person does not have the inherent (“endowed by their Creator”) and thus unalienable Rights that Natural Persons (human beings) have. So, Aggregate Personhood was originally invented as a legal fiction to enable such aggregates to participate on an equal footing with Natural Persons and their Rights in matters of contractual, civil, and criminal law. To facilitate this they’re granted a limited set of pseudo-“Rights” (Powers, actually, since they’re granted or bestowed rather than being inherent and unalienable) such as the “right” to own property (patents, copyrights, real estate, corporate funds, etc.), enter into contracts with each other and with Natural Persons (employment contracts, EULAs, NDAs, etc.), and so on.

    That was the original intent with corporate (and other aggregate) personhood. Even that started out as an evil with the British East India Company, the first corporation in this sense, created to facilitate plundering India’s resources. The Boston Tea Party, contrary to what the Ron Paul supporters and later Teabaggers who both used the Tea Party in their propaganda, was not about taxes on tea being too high. It was about the corporate taxes the British Crown imposed on the East India Tea Company (subsidiary) being too low, so that the American colonial tea farmers couldn’t compete even though they didn’t have to transport their product over the ocean.

    So corporations were basically born in Britain and grew up and were perfected in the USA. And where are those nations from the POV of the Holy Land and the Isle of Patmos where John lived most of his life and wrote Revelation respectively? Over the sea (Britain to the NW, the USA further to the W). And where does the Great Beast of Revelation 13 arise? Up out of the sea! The usual interpretation of this is that this is “the sea of humanity,” but that makes no sense, especially since the Second Beast aka False Prophet is said to arise up from the earth (land), while the Third Beast aka Scarlet-Coloured Beast of Chapter 17 arises from the Bottomless Pit.

    As I said, the original intent with Corporate Personhood was as a legal ficition to empower corporations to compete on an equal footing with Natural Persons and their Inherent and Unalienable Rights in matters of contractual, civil, and criminal law. It was supposed to be limited to that. But in more recent years, with Supreme Court decisions such as Citizens United and Hobby Lobby, corporations have been elevated to the level of real Personhood with real Rights above and beyond those necessary pseudo-Rights, including Freedom of Speech (Citizens United) and even of Religion (Hobby Lobby and Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd.). What religion is an actual corporate person? Not the founder(s) or CEO or members of the Board of Directors or majority stockholders — the corporate Person itself? What god does it worship? What book of scripture does it hold authoritative in matters relating to its (non-existent, even if we Natural Persons do have them) immortal soul? What house of worship does it attend services at? These decisions are ludicrous.

    They’re also blasphemous in the extreme! They, and even the original version of Aggregate Personhood, are basically we human beings arrogating to ourselves an authority reserved only to Almighty God: the power and authority to actually create a whole new type of Person and endow it with the same sort of Rights that Dominionists et al say that God endowed us with (“God-given Rights”)! How blasphemous is that!?

    Long story short: all three Beasts are Aggregates of Aggregate Persons. The concept of Aggregate Persons is inherently blasphemous even in its original form, let alone the further blasphemous equating of them (and in practice making them superior to) the “God-given Rights” of God-created Natural Persons in the recent SCOTUS decisions. Corporate Personhood is the Great Beast. All corporations are collectively the Great Beast. It despoileth the Earth (massive environmental devastation, further facilitated by corporate personhood with land rights and such, and the deregulation happening now thanks to the GOP aka the Scarlet-Coloured Beast — this is manifesting as the plagues of Revelation Chapter 16, including not only oceanic and inland water pollution [the Second and Third Angels with Vials / Bowls of the Wrath of God], but also global warming and/or ozone depletion [the Fourth Angel in verses 8–9] which they and their supporters publicly claim not to believe in — God will destroy all those who participate in destroying the Earth [11:18] thus showing that it is human agency that will cause these plagues, and that the angels with bowls / vials are symbolic).

    And what entity deceives its followers into basically worshiping corporations and their owners (the “Holy Blessed Job Creators™”) thus worshiping the Great Beast? All of right-wing evangelical “Christianity” including all variants of DIspensationalism, Dominionism, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR [one guy I know who used to be in this movement calls them “NARasites” for their practice of infiltrating formerly mainstream moderate denominations and “steeplejacking” them from within, but I like to call them “NARisees” because they do the things that Christ condemned the Pharisees of old for doing, including mixing Church and State]), Christian Reconstruction, the aforementioned Third Wave of the Holy Spirit aka “Joel’s Army” (the movement behind the “Jesus Camp” in the documentary of that name), the Seven Mountains Mandate (of course), and (of course) Prosperity “Gospel.” And notice how those are mixing together these days?

    All of the above (and likely more) are collectively the Second Beast aka False Prophet. They claim to be Christianity, and Christianity did of course arise from the land area where John lived, thus the Beast that Ariseth from the Land (or up from the earth) as opposed to the Great Beast, Corporate Personhood, which arose across the sea.

    The GOP started with admirable intentions (Abolitionism) and was originally progressive. Teddy Roosevelt pretty much invented environmentalism and conservationism. But then along came Warren G. Harding and his Teapot Dome, which forever aligned the GOP with corporations and thus the Great Beast. Later the Second Beast was brought on board starting with Barry Goldwater (who subsequently warned against thus, but only after the damage was done) and then Nixon and the Southern Strategy and Reagan bringing in Falwell and the (im)Moral (non-)Majority. Harding though was the one who made the alliance with the Great Beast, and so set the GOP up to become the Third aka Scarlet-Coloured Beast. And remember how the Ten Horns represent ten kings who issue forth from that Beast, one after another? Here are the GOP Presidents to date, starting with Harding:

     1. Warren G. Harding
     2. Calvin Coolidge
     3. Herbert C. Hoover
     4. Dwight D. Eisenhower
     5. Richard M. Nixon
     6. Gerald R. Ford
     7. Ronald W. Reagan
     8. George H. W. Bush
     9. George W. Bush
    10. Donald J. Trump (“Donald Johann Drumpf,” to use his family heritage name: six, six, six letters)

    Coincidence?

  • COMALite J

    John wrote that in his first Epistle. He’s the only Bible writer to use the term “antichrist(s)” at all, yet he only uses it in a generic sense (never as “the Antichrist”) and then only in his Epistles, not the Book of Revelation which he supposedly also wrote based on his visions on the Isle of Patmos. If he intended the great evil ruler of the End Times to be known as “the Antichrist,” he would’ve called him that in Revelation. He did not.

    The great evil ruler is the Great Beast of Chapter 13, supported by the Second Beast aka False Prophet therein. These are not individual persons. They’re aggregates. More on that in my Reply to @Deadtroopers:disqus if it gets approved (it got sent to Disqus moderation for some reason).

    If any one person were “the Antichrist,” it’d be the Little Horn of the Great Beast (with the mouth that speaketh blasphemies [like, “I have no need for [God’s] forgiveness. I’ve never done anything wrong!”]) which may well be the same entity as the Tenth Horn of the Third Beast, the Scarlet-Coloured Beast of Chapter 17 (again, see that Reply if it shows up).

  • Jim Jones

    Only dimwits assume there’s only ever been one Jim Jones on the planet.

  • markr1957

    No, just written so long after the supposed life and death of Jesus it was either written by a 100 year old man or it’s another pseudonymous gospel (like the other three, the gospels according to a disciple, but definitely not written by any disciple)..

  • Steven Watson

    There was I thinking I could do Tall of Text. TL;DR. I think you are a loony.

  • And?

  • Steven Watson

    I haven’t thought Jesus the man existed for forty odd years. Hallucinations by their very nature can’t write.

  • Steven Watson

    Erhrm. Romani ite domum. Post it 100 times or I will have your balls!

  • Steven Watson

    Not something I claimed. His behaviour is reminiscent of a brain injury or schizophrenia. Only an extensive medical/psychiatric assay can tell us exactly what is going on. He may be a “Manchurian Candidate” or a puppet of the Martians for all we know.

  • Steven Watson

    This is a bad thing?

  • Steven Watson

    Do I care, loony?

  • COMALite J

    I certainly hope the guy I got this from is a loon. I thought he was at the time, and I still mostly think so. But now I’m not as sure as I was. His prophecies do seem to be coming true in ways I can’t explain (I’ve been mostly atheist for the last decade or so, and now I realize that part of that was because I really don’t want this guy to be right, to be who he claimed to be). The last time we communicated (online — I’ve never met the guy in person, and he never told me his legal name) was in the early 2000s, well over a decade before the GOP changed their logo to be a literal Scarlet-Coloured Beast, yet he somehow knew way back then that they would. How?

  • COMALite J

    <sarcasm type="sardonic" level="3">Oh come on! You know good and well that “Jim” isn’t a very common first name, and “Jones” is an extremely rare surname.</sarcasm>

  • COMALite J

    He may well be worse than a mere false prophet.

  • Steven Watson

    Pick up a decent book about Nostradamus. Otherwise, get your head together. You’ve become a poster-boy for Christerloons. They believe if you stop believing in Christ, you will start believing in anything. They could use you as First Exhibit.

  • COMALite J

    To be fair, there were several Bible-thumpers besides Cruz, including Santorum and others. There were several business types. There were several establishment GOPers (e-GOP) such as JEB! (“Please clap”). There were several who combined two or more of those (Fiorina and Carson among others). Having multiples of those types split the GOP primary votes from those types of voters.

    But there was only one Trump.

  • COMALite J

    Could Nostradomus name a random county and say that that county would receive a third of its rainfall the following year, and then when I go back and check the precipitation records, it turns out that it was exactly ⅓ to the ⅟₁₀₀″ accuracy (the maximum precision our weather instruments are capable of measuring)?

  • LP

    What a waste of forty years but you will meet your hallucination one day.

  • COMALite J

  • Silverwolf13

    Apparently, there are a few Christians who still try to follow the teachings of Jesus.

  • Dhammarato

    If the downfall of Trump also takes Christianity down with him, that will be the best thing to come from all this, But it is still not worth what THEY put us through. May all Christians enter their various churches and pray non stop for forgiveness, never to return to the light of day

  • Dhammarato

    grind some glass into a powder and put it in his omelet. Tell him it is trumps own favorite, he will eat it up and spend some time on the toilet he belongs in.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    “Sell your cloak and buy a sword”?
    “Mental illness is caused by demon possession”?

    I could go on…

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    It’s possible…mental compartmentalization is a thing.

    Mr. Rogers was a pastor, and was a good person overall…examples may be scarce, but they’re there.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Prayer hasn’t managed to do bupkis to make tRump better.

    How long must we wait?

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Nope.

    Y’all want an excuse to commit authoritarian abuse.

    We’re taking that privilege away from you…deal with it.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Bulls**t.

    Demonstrate your ‘god’ exists before you attempt to conjure fell and evil magicks with it like this.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Uh…’losing’ because Repugs cheat and violate their oaths of office isn’t a loss, *especially* when the whole damned country will see them doing so.

    All YOUR KIND is doing is adding momentum to the near inevitable Blue Wave.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    They didn’t *lie* about their mistresses during their campaigns, using donated money to keep the voting public in the dark about it.

    And if ‘having a mistress’ is the worst thing you see about tRump, you need to reexamine your life, as you’re a deporable.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Nope.

    Educated enough to realize that blind loyalty is dangerous, and all beliefs must be continually tested if society is to be safe.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    And Harry Potter was saved from a 69killing curse by the love of his mother.

    Your point?

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Until you can provide evidence, it can be all reasonably treated as fiction…*crappy* fiction, too.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Well, Shakespeare made up (cool) words, so…

    😉

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    Both…

  • Jair52

    I wonder where this Thurman was when Obama time after time refused to pursue ISIS while the terrorists were drowning and burning Christians and moderate muslims.

  • Raging Bee

    “Refused” to pursue ISIS? Citation required.

  • Raging Bee

    Unstable as opposed to Trump?

  • Raging Bee

    “Love they neighbor as thyself” and “Don unto others as you would have others do unto you” are “Gospel-based values” that Evangelicals have dissed, dismissed and kicked to the curb decades ago. We all know Evangelical Christianity in America is based on fraud, racism, and mindless resistance to nearly every social-progress movement since abolitionism.

  • Jair52

    Obama required troops to inquire before engaging enemy, but here is the famous expression : Isis is contained”
    https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/14/politics/paris-terror-attacks-obama-isis-contained/index.html

  • Lektrikwire

    Deplorable? Thank you. Those WWII heroes hid their mistresses and never fessed up. And in Ike’s case, his paramour was on the taxpayer payroll. So, how is Trump ethically worse than Hillary? Which ethical Dem are you counting on to take out Trump in 2020. And, original question, why shouldn’t we give Japan and Germany a do-over?

  • RUNSWITHWOLVES

    I’d like to pick your brain

  • jntaylor1701

    Your Post to God’s ears.

  • Raging Bee

    Nothing there about “refusing” to fight ISIL. Try harder.

  • Raging Bee

    So God “established” Trump, just like he “established” Hitler and Stalin?

  • Turbulance

    Oh please, the Bible does not support any of that!

  • Brigit Ard Inghean Aeda

    Yes it does. Have you actually READ the Old Testament?

    And yes, I realize that Jesus changed all that, but he also said to forget/ignore the Levitican Laws (Mosaic Law/Book of Leviticus). There are a LOT of ya’ll that ignore Jesus’ AND Paul’s words on that issue. I wonder why?

  • Tony Prost

    they told me Obama is the Anti Christ!

  • Apparently so, if one is to believe a disjointed collection of ancient middle eastern tribal myths and the writings (of dubious authorship) of bronze-age doomsday-cult leaders.
    Personally, I don’t buy it.

  • Other Brother Daryl

    I never said he was the only one. I’m sure the world probably produced another Joseph Stalin somewhere, but the other guys just don’t seem to be going by that name on social media.

  • Raging Bee

    Even if one is to believe a disjointed collection of ancient middle eastern tribal myths and the writings (of dubious authorship) of bronze-age doomsday-cult leaders, the idea that that god, or any other god, would “establish” any particular head of state is STILL — to put it charitably — a non-sequitur.

  • Raging Bee

    FDR, Eisenhower, McArthur and Patton all had POSITIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS to be remembered for. Trump doesn’t.

  • Raging Bee

    We have. That’s how we know how totally full of $h1te so many of his “followers” really are.

  • Other Brother Daryl

    Be honest. You don’t care about evidence in support of the Bible or Jesus’s existence. You just waste your time searching for people of faith and badmouthing their faith or the object of their faith.

  • Other Brother Daryl

    If you think that you obviously haven’t vetted event to manuscript timelines on other ancient books. The New Testament has the best stats, so to speak. Matthew was a disciple, as was John.

  • markr1957

    Neither one wrote anything though. That’s why the gospels are called “The Gospel according to xxxxxx”, and not the “The Gospel of xxxxx”. That’s also why all the gospels were written in Koine Greek and not in Aramaic, which was the native language of all the disciples.

    Another thing that is absolutely certain is that every single scrap of gospel has been edited and redacted to pursue some politician agenda, in particular to exclude Gnostic Christian teachings. Even the accepted unforged letters of Saul of Tarsus have had parts added and removed to change the overall message to suit the requirements of the Roman Emperor Constantine and the men who took control of the Christian church.

    Ultimately the oldest extant gospel still in existence is one of those Gnostic gospels, which although probably not written until late 2nd or early 3rd century, is still the oldest bit of original paper we have. One thing is absolutely sure – Christianity had a thousands factions from the day it began, and nothing has changed.

  • Raging Bee

    Including the bits that contradict other bits of Scripture? Including the muddled bits that make so little sense that no one seems to agree on what they “really” mean?

  • Raging Bee

    …says the whiner who searched for atheist blots to whine on.

  • RMS

    it’s The Dead Zone in real life

  • I find it easy to view President Donald J. Trump as somebody very much in the mold of Ming The Merciless, Emperor of the planet Mongo – but much less intelligent and even less impressive in appearance – Ming makes bare crowns look cool, like Captain Jean-Luc Picard of Star Trek NG, the actors Telly Savalas, and Yul Brynner. Foolish-Looking orange crowns are not cool.

    But is it now the time to seek out the hero Flash Gordon? Could HE SAVE EVERYONE OF US?

    https://youtu.be/fXpmkHrTwtA

  • basenjibrian

    Jesus made it worse. I don’t think the Hebrews really had a gleefully anticipated eternal punishment regime upon their enemies.

  • basenjibrian

    This is fascinating, even if a liitle bit…cray cray. 🙂

    I LOVE this kind of stuff. But then, I love sci fi and used to read fantasy novels.

    Have you ever read anything on Kaballah? THAT is amazing stuff! Reams upon reams of complicated, theoretical concepts all invented by men whose lives are devoted to doing just that.

  • basenjibrian

    middle eastern tribal myths at least partially designed to create a glorious mythical past and justify the return of an upper class to Palestine to serve as convenient and loyal tax collectors for the Persian king!

  • basenjibrian

    Ah… always the threat. And the gleeful anticipation of pain for those of us who don’t share your fantasies. One could almost say this is psychopathic, not healthy.

  • basenjibrian

    I might also opine that “psychology” is based on an awful lot of woo itself, so he is facing a double wammy of delusion.

  • basenjibrian

    Better to just spray random hospitals and wedding parties with helicopter gunship fire just in case there was a terrorist somewhere there.
    Of course, contra Jair52, Obama DID do that, too.

  • basenjibrian

    How many collusions, crimes, petty vendettas, and violations of the emoluments clause does the man have to do before it meets your oh-so-fastidious standards for impeachment?

  • basenjibrian

    He’s been this way his entire life. I agree.

  • basenjibrian

    I actually am sympathetic to JohnD. A lot of psychology is not “education” but woo and weird ideas.

  • LP

    It’s not a threat it’s a promise.

  • Steven Watson

    A humongous amount of smoke but no fire. Honestly, the only grounds I can see for removing President Trump from office is brain injury or psychiatric impairment. Otherwise about all I’ve been seeing is affronted entitlement from his political opponents. The traces have been overthrown, neither he nor the public who voted him into office buy into the “progressive” narrative. They have come to the conclusion it was all a lie and they won’t put up with the crap of heads you win, tails they lose any longer.

  • Raging Bee

    “The only grounds I can see for removing President Trump from office” are the grounds you choose to admit you see. There’s plenty more that we all know you’re ignoring.

  • Raging Bee

    Maybe our guys missed a wing of that hospital? That could be what jair is on about…

  • basenjibrian

    Everything you say in the second paragraph is true (but would be vocally and vigorously denied by Biblical literalists).
    At the same time, there is a fundamental, core problem with the theology. The concept of The Fall and a need for Salvation (or else eternal torment). This core doctrine, this Celestial North Korea (every BAD THOUGHT counts as a sin as evil as an action) is seriously wicked in itself. Unless one believes that the Creator deliberately made a flawed Creation as some kind of vast sick game. “Created sick, commanded to be well”. Given the three omnis, every “sinner” was created by God knowing from the beginning of time that we would sin. Given this, who is ultimately responsible for “sin” and “the fall”? “Free Will” fails as a defense in the face of an omniscient god. The only moral response to such a God is rebellion, even if doomed.

  • basenjibrian

    People (and polities) can die of smoke inhalation. The corruption, emoluments clause violations, and violations of established law and procedure alone are pretty much deadly to this polity if not corrected.
    Oh well. There is a good percentage of this population who wants a Franco, a Mussolini, a Peron to be the Big Man that stomps out dissent and “weakness”. We will get what we want.

  • persephone

    His biography is pretty clear.

  • persephone

    You’re reaching hard.

  • Danny Voglesong

    AMEN

  • Silverwolf13

    Many civilizations have a legend of a golden age prior to agriculture. And it’s true. It’s estimated that hunter gatherer societies only worked three days per week.

    Taken literally, the Garden of Eden story shows Yahweh as the worst host in the world. He invites you to a banquet, points out the best food, and says that you can’t eat the best food.