Asking the Question, “Do You Allow Guns on Campus?”

It is hard to believe but in a few short years my first born, my “baby,” will be heading off to college. The browsing has begun and next year we will begin making visits. Truly shocking to this GenX’er dad – not only is the college decision looming before me, but like so many other things that are different than “when I was young,” because my daughter is smarter and more gifted that I was at her age, distilling down the possibilities will be difficult. But try as we might to avoid it, we have to deal with the reality . . . our daughter will soon be going to college and we will have to help. :-)

As we have conversations about the possibilities, we know that her interests and passions will be significant determiners, the shear cost of a college education will be a factor and the application process itself may require an advanced degree. Despite all of these things that make us want to run away and hide, we have begun making our list of questions and filters for schools: some serious, others not so much . . .

  • Which schools are the “best” ones for your interests . . . or for the interests that your parents hope you will be interested in?
  • What are your dreams and will this school help you get there?
  • Who gives good financial aid or has some version of a no-debt programs?
  • Who as the best food?
  • Seven Sisters? West Coast, East Coast or that middle part?
  • Small college or large university?
  • What schools are located in cities that the parental units are willing to visit?
  • What is their policy concerning guns and/or concealed weapons on campus?

Even as I write this post, that final question seems absurd to me.

Yes, I know that there is a contingent of folks who believe that any restriction of gun ownership is an attack on their liberty and constitutional rights, but guns on college campuses? When I was in college I could barely be trusted with choosing my major, let alone carry a firearm. So, despite the shocking amount of legislation that aims to ease gun restrictions on college campuses or forbid colleges from banning concealed weapons, I will simply choose to believe that most folks, even strong gun advocates, would not support policies that would allow students to carry guns on campus.

I also know that most of the schools that we may end up choosing probably will not allow students to carry firearms – as most states either ban guns on campus or allow schools to determine their gun policy [See map above] - but even some great schools are located in states that have or have had legislation that, if passed, would make it possible. You can see a complete list of legislation here. Of the 20+ pieces of legislation introduced in 2012 or carried over from 2011, thankfully most did not make it through this legislative cycle, but I have no doubt that advocates of guns on campus will be back again.

If you are interested in seeing some of the colleges and universities who have signed a pledge to keep guns off of their campuses, please see this list from www.keepgunsoffcampus.org and if your school has not signed, please encourage them to do so. And if you want to see one school that has begun to loosen their ban/restriction of concealed weapons on campus, here is Liberty University’s Gun Policy which includes a list of schools that they lift up as having similar policies.

I write this post not battle some straw man, to incite unnecessary panic or to pick a fight with anyone – yeah, good luck with that I know – but rather to highlight the need to be aware of what’s going on in the realm of guns on our nation’s college campuses. Other than a very brief and surreal interaction during a recent presidential debate, the absence of a national conversation on gun control or gun regulation has been deafening; and as a parent, a Christian and a citizen of the United States of America, the silence is not okay.

I do not want my child going to a college or university that has loose gun policies, so I’ll be paying close attention to legislative trends, especially over the next few years. If you feel the same way, I would encourage you to keep your ears open and stay connected to Keep Guns Off Campus by following them on Twitter or liking their Facebook Page. You can also keep up with the larger conversation via The Brady Campaign. And if you have other groups or schools who are fighting the move to loosen gun restrictions on campuses, please feel free to share.

Thanks for reading.

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  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    If the gun is on my person, it’s at much less risk of being stolen.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Regulations only guide the law-abiding. That’s the problem. Rational people obey the law–when it’s not tyrannical. Criminals require the application of force.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    You encourage your daughter not to go to schools where people carry guns legally. Have you asked her to look into the measures trying to stop people from carrying illegally? Typically, it’s just a sign on the door and a couple of security guards on a campus of thousands.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    I don’t know what sources you used for that map, but your classification of Arkansas is wrong or at least misleading. People with concealed carry licenses may bring handguns onto the campus, but the law specifically bans carry into the buildings. I have an Arkansas license, and I’m an instructor at an Arkansas college.

    Mr. Reyes-Chow, you follow the typical flawed reasoning that worries about college freshmen coming armed. The fact is that the minimum age for a carry license and for buying a handgun legally is twenty-one. That would suggest that any students who legally bring guns with them will be more mature than ones fresh out of high school. But the higher probability is that those with licenses will be faculty and staff. You trust us with your child. Is it so hard to trust us with a handgun?

    But consider another reality. People with licenses carry legally. The problem is that if someone intends to commit murder, that person isn’t going to care that it’s also illegal to carry a gun into a college building. The ones that we need to be concerned about are the ones who break the law. Those of us with carry licenses follow the law–the evidence from state after state shows that this statement is true for better than 99% of us.

    What you are wanting here is to disarm the good guys, while doing nothing to stop those who wish to cause harm. I ask you to reconsider your position in light of what I’ve said here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/corey.suydam.77 Corey Suydam

    The problem is people like you make it more difficult for reforms to get passed in order to get more colleges to allow CCW on campus. You didn’t just saw you wouldn’t send your child to a school that allowed CCW. You also said you were glad that most reform laws to allow it have failed and encouraged people to check out organizations that oppose it.

    There is a difference between personally preferring colleges that prohibit CCW and doing all you can to ensure that all of them do.

  • http://www.facebook.com/corey.suydam.77 Corey Suydam

    Right, then I’m sure you can provide actual evidence of an increase of gun crime in bars since the new law went into place….right…?…anyone…?….Bueller?

    In reality, such laws have never resulted in crime problems in any of the states where they have gone into effect..

  • http://www.facebook.com/cheryl.moellerliniman Cheryl Moeller-Liniman

    You’d love Ohio. Our governor decided it’s okay to take your guns into bars. That way, anybody in a drunken stupor can quickly resolve their differences right there on the spot and prove who’s the “strongest” man. Takes care of those pesky “barroom brawls.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/christopher.broome2 Christopher Broome

    If you couldn’t be trusted with choosing your own major or carrying a weapon college wasn’t the place for you either. The most mature thing you could have done was realize you obviously could not handle the responsibility of a firearm. Oh, by the way just cause your child goes to a University that bans guns does not mean there are no guns on campus.

  • franklin

    Jarhead1982: Wow lots of excellent work in your post. I’m going to copy for reference!

  • jack burton

    “aware” and “able to defend one self” are not synonymous…

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Not the first and won’t be the last time that thoughtful people can read the same words and interpret vastly different meaning. Not sure if you took a look at my background, but as a pastor, I know this all too well. And in regards to be being “supposedly evolved” . . . ain’t that the truth ;-) Thanks for hanging in the conversation and I hope you have a great weekend.

  • jarhead1982

    No, Charles attributed that you were smarter than that and your act was disappointing for one supposedly evolved. Your response indicates you probably agree with his assessment.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Thanks for responded again, but I think you misread the context of the paranoid comment and might be guilty of what some are accusing me of, “projecting” as we were talking about raising street smart kids . . . we had thoughtfully moved to talking about parenting.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Yes, I agree it can be unhealthy and I am flattered by the power that you attribute me abilities, but really, NONE of us is absent of seeing their world through a particular lens, so I will fully own that elements of what you accuse are undoubtedly present, and would hope you could do the same. Thanks for commenting.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    One could argue semantics, linguistics and sentence structure, but I think “pathetic” is a value judgement and was aimed at me.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Thanks for taking the time to acknowledge what I strive to do, though, often fail. My kids read my blog and I hope that, even in disagreement, folks can find a way not to tear one another down. In any case, thanks again for a welcomed affirmation. Have a great weekend.

  • PavePusher

    Carrying a defensive sidearm does not equal “paranoid”. You claim above to not enjoy name-calling (when none was done) but you certainly seem to have no problem casting insinuations about at will.

  • PavePusher

    There was no “name calling” in his post.

  • PavePusher

    PTSD? From an event you weren’t at? And you expect anyone to take you seriously?

  • http://twowheeledmadwoman.blogspot.com/ Roberta X

    While I don’t agree with your position on this issue, Bruce, you are to be commended for the manner in which you have conducted this discussion.

    As for firearms on campus, evidence is that persons who disregard university policy and applicable State and Federal laws are the greatest risk — no matter what those laws or polices may be.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Larry-Arnold/100002274408492 Larry Arnold

    When I was getting my first degree (1965-69) there were lots of guns on campus. I was in ROTC, and we had an arms room in our dorm for our drill rifles. There was a shooting range under the bleachers at our football stadium. Lots of students kept hunting rifles and shotguns in their cars or in their dorm rooms. The school had a shooting team, and regularly competed with other colleges.

    That didn’t change until 1970, when two school shootings initiated the “no guns on campus” philosophy. Ironically at those two shootings, Kent State University
    and Jackson State University, it was the National Guard and sheriff’s deputies who did the shooting. Originally the “no guns on campus” movement was all about getting GOVERNMENT guns off campus, not the student guns which had caused no problems.
    Which is an interesting bit of history to remember when the administration says your daughter doesn’t need a gun, because she can depend on armed campus security.

  • Ken Perez

    There are plenty of ways to secure firearms when you’re away. Secure storage is part of being a responsible gun owner. Ask your local dealer about locks, cables, safes, etc.

  • jarhead1982

    projectionism

    Projectionism projecting is when someone puts their own issues on someone else, i.e. it is when a person attributes his/her own thoughts/feelings/behaviors to/on to another person, and a/or a group of ppl, and an/or an organization.

    This is an ad hominem attack on a persons character; it is a tactic used in, typically, internet argument conversations by trolls who have no real criticisms to make. Used most often at a certain point in the conversation when they know that they have lost the argument, & perhaps they started without a real argument in the first place, the troll uses projectionism to defend themselves.

    Bruce, you sure have projected your fears upon everyone else, which is not calling you a name, it is defining your actions and probable reason for doing so.

    In fact in your projectionism, you have insulted and iferred all law abiding gun owners who choose to carry concealed are somehow violent and dangerous, which in itself is an insult by YOU!

    That is unless you can substantiate why you are so afraid of an inanimate object, or the law abiding when you and those like you, have never proven the law abiding gun owner carrying concelaled to be a risk.

    Failure to prove the law abiding gun owners are such a risk and, geez, you lose credibility no matter how polite your retorts are.

    Its alright to admit that you just dont like guns or the freedom of choice they represent. Just dont go subliminally inferring we who choose to do so, are guilty of anything but exercising our rights as that is just plain RUDE and WRONG.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Jeff, thanks for the thoughtful response and awareness about how these kinds of conversations can be incredible unproductive. Very much agree with you about raising aware kids. One of the reasons that we have chosen to raise our three children in an urban context is precisely because we believe that they do become street smart. There are of, course other reasons, but having kids that are aware without being paranoid is so very important. Thanks for commenting.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Charles – While I generally do not respond to people who resort to name-calling as I do not think that it helps in our public discourse, thank you for leaving your comments even if I disagree with some of your assumptions about what I have experienced or what we might appreciate.

  • jarhead1982

    We get it Bruce, you only want your daughter to go to a school that doesnt believe in free thinking, freedom or civil rights.

  • jack burton

    Bruce, your post was very short on detail. Specifically, WHY do you not want your daughter to go to a college that allows CCW on campus. You never really addressed that but in passing with a remark about yourself. If it is merely “fear” that has seized control of your decision making I leave you with a quote from …
    We must dare to think ‘unthinkable’ thoughts. We must learn to explore all the options and possibilities that confront us in a complex and rapidly changing world. We must learn to welcome and not to fear the voices of dissent. We must dare to think about ‘unthinkable things’ because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless.
    ~ James William Fulbright

  • http://twitter.com/cgiven1 Charles Given

    Projection. Just because you couldn’t be trusted you feel that no one else can. Pathetic. Here in Texas you have to be 21 to get a handgun carry license. You’re talking about college seniors and grad students. Not the “wild” freshmen. Even in states where the age is 18. Think about how responsible those young americans are that think about the issue and make the decision to get a license. They aren’t the ones you have to worry about and in fact you may appreciate having one around if heaven forbid your daughter ever had need for their help.

  • Bob

    Additionally, VA Tech, I believe, had a strict no gun law which didn’t help them at all.

  • Bob

    Sir, how do you propose that stiff gun laws will protect your daughter? Do you think people with criminal intent would obey that law, but ignore others?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Campbell/100000787083848 Jeff Campbell

    I agree with you comments 100%, what many people fail to understand that out of the hundreds a times a day a Gun is used for self-defense, a Gun is only fired less than 5% in any such incident because merely presenting a firearm can diffuse a dangerous situation.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Campbell/100000787083848 Jeff Campbell

    Bruce, I’m a pro-carry Gun guy and have been one for over 40 years, but how and what you use as your metric to determine if you want your Daughter to go to a School that allows Guns is up to you and I won’t use snark on you, but please do be aware that your Daughter will not always be on Campus and there are some dangerous folks out there that prey on Students, so please make sure she is aware of her surroundings at all times and consider sending her to a Gun safety class so she can at least have an idea of what she may be up against and what she needs to do if she comes upon one.

  • jarhead1982

    So what your saying Bruce, is that you want your child to go to a school, where rights and freedom are not part of the learning experience! Instead going to a school where debasing of individual rights is promoted based on irrational and unsubstantiated fears?

    Think you really should read on rather than make a decision based on lack of real information.

    CPL
    Carry on campus

    If you know how to read and google, maybe you
    should review the government report identified in the following news article on
    the INCREASE in violent crime on campuses eh? http://www.livesecure.org/violent-crimes-increase-on-nations-college-campuses/

    The U.S. Dept of Education, the FBI and the U.S.
    Secret Service recently released an extensive research report (“Campus Attacks
    – Targeted Violence Affecting Institutions of Higher Learning”) that indicated
    the incidents of college campus violence had drastically increased in the past
    20 years.

    http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/campus-attacks/campus-attacks-pdf/view

    What
    is the risk being near a person carrying concealed.

    We
    see US Census 2008 18.4 mil students, 42% 21 or older, 4,300 schools.

    186
    mil / 4,300 schools = 4,276 avg.
    students per school

    US
    Census 186 mil 21 or older, 8 mil cpl licensee’s BATF 8 mil / 186 mil = 4.3% of
    population has cpl license.

    18.4
    mil x 42% = 7.728 mil x 4.3% = 332,304 / 4,300 schools = 77.28 avg. per school.

    77.28
    / 4, 276 = 1.8% chance of being around a student who is carrying concealed. Oh
    wow, that is so scary and so dangerous.

    Based
    on your unsubstantiated fear, we should see thousands, uh no, hundreds, uh no,
    even tens of police reports showing you college students are identifying and
    assisting police in catching people who are carrying concealed today? Nope, you
    people can’t even see the criminals carrying concealed today, yet you are more
    afraid of law abiding citizens than criminals. Speaks volumes
    of your lack of understanding of reality.

    Police more Dangerous

    Cato Policy Analysis No. 284 (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1143&full=1) by Jeff Snyder states the cops are 11 times more likely to
    shoot the wrong person than a “civilian.”*

    “In fact, gun owners mistakenly kill about 30 innocent
    persons a year, one-eleventh of the number killed by police.”

    If public safety and eliminating these deaths are your main
    goal, then you should disarm the cops and arm the population!

    Based
    on the August 24, 2012 shooting by police where 9 bystanders were injured by ricochet’s
    and direct hits by police gun fire, that number will go up.

    Empire
    State building shooting 8/24/12, see em scatter, 9 innocents injured by police gun
    fire.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYWgrHwrlf8

    The courts have
    ruled the police have no duty to protect individuals:


    Bowers
    v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982) (no federal constitutional requirement
    that police provide protection)
    Dozens more upon request.

    Why is it, that the police,
    whose best response times are 4 minutes, avg 15-20 minutes can only solve 8.06%
    of all violent crimes committed on a yearly basis?

    FBI UCR 2008 1.38 mil VCR
    (Violent Crime Reported) 45.1% solved to prosecution, 80% success rate.

    http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/clearances/index.htm

    But oh wait, we have to
    remember those 4.8 million violent crimes the government recognizes that were
    not reported USDOJ National Victimization report 2008.

    http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2224

    http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/Statistics/FederalJudicialCaseloadStatistics/2008/tables/D04Mar08.pdf

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf

    So based on that (1.38 mil x
    45.1%) x 80%) / 1.38 mil + 4.8 mil = 8.06% of the violent crimes committed are
    solved each year.
    Oh thats right, someone
    planning and being prepared for the worst case is not sane in your opinion apparently. So since
    being prepared is not sane, there really is no need for you to have car, home, life or
    medical insurance right?

    Compare safety of 1 right vs other Right

    Geez, didn’t the
    government just create a right to health care a year ago, yeah, they are
    forcing everyone into a high-risk situation with no choice.

    Lets compare the safety of
    going to a doctor vs being around a CPL licensee since they are both rights.

    BATF
    Max 8 million CPL’s US, approximately 186 million age 21 or older or 4.3% of
    the people licensed for CPL.

    Possible deaths from CPL
    holders in 3 year time span from Violence Policy Center report 2009, 137 or 45
    per year equals .00000562 per concealed license holder. You can also review
    Florida’s data on CCW at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html
    it says the same thing.

    JAMA http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/286/4/415
    700,000 doctors in US kill 44,000 to 98,000 by medical malpractice every year
    or .065 to.14 per physician.

    Physician is .065 or .14
    /.00000562 = 12,000 to 25,000 times more likely to harm you than a CPL holder.

    So where is the risk
    from concealed carry holders and why aren’t you crying to ban doctors?

    Lets
    review the following 14 mass shootings, and note what the body counts were
    where resistance occurred versus no resistance, schools are a gun free zone unless overturned by law arent they?

    October
    16, 1991, Luby’s Cafeteria, Killeen, TX, “Gun-Free”: 1 gunman, 23 murdered, 20
    injured.

    April 20,
    1999, Columbine, “Gun-Free”: 2 gunmen, 13 murdered, 24 injured. Many were
    murdered AFTER the police were “on scene”.

    April 16,
    2007, Virginia Tech, “Gun-Free”: 1 gunman, 32 murdered, 25 injured. Most were
    murdered AFTER the police were “on scene”.

    Feb
    14,2008 Northern Illinois University, 1 gunman, 5 dead, 18 injured, gunman
    kills self long before police arrive to engage.

    Nov 5
    ,2009 Ft Hood Texas, 1 gunman, 13 dead, 30 wounded. Military personnel on base
    are BANNED from having a weapon, but the shooter did, and it was almost 9
    minutes before police responded

    July 2012
    Aurora CO, 1 gunman, 13 dead, 70 wounded

    Aug 2012
    Oak Creek WI, 1 gunman, 6 dead, 4 wounded

    Gun Free
    Zone 7 incidents

    Defenseless
    victims murdered: 105

    Defenseless
    victims injured: 191

    December
    17, 1991 Shoney’s Family Restaurant, Anniston, AL: 3 gunmen, 20 hostages, one
    ARMED customer (Thomas Glenn Terry). Police finally arrived to find one dead
    robber, one wounded robber and the third had fled when the shooting started. NO
    INJURED INNOCENTS.

    October 1,
    1997, Pearl High School: 1 gunman, 2 murdered, 7 injured: Stopped by ARMED vice
    principal.

    January
    16, 2002, Virginia Appalachian School of Law: 1 gunman, 3 murdered, 3 injured.
    Killer was stopped when confronted by two ARMED students.

    Nov 20,
    2005 Tacoma WA, 20 yr old juvenile delinquent shoots 4 (1 non gun shot wounded)
    then exchanges shots with an armed civilian wounding him, but then takes 4
    hostages and holes up before surrendering to police.

    Feb 12,
    2007 Trolley Mall Salt Lake Utah 1 gunman, 4 killed, 5 wounded before on scene
    off duty policeman shot and killed the heavily armed killer. Hundreds of people
    still in mall when shooting ended before on duty police arrived.

    Dec 9
    2007, Colorado Springs, New Life Church, 1 gunman 2 murdered, 3 injured, gunman
    stopped when armed woman shoots gunman, who then turns gun on self and commits
    suicide, while 100 other church members are in church.

    May 4th, College Station
    Georgia 2 gunman, 10 victims, 1 dead gunman, 1 victim wounded. The 2 thugs
    robbing a party begin discussing if they have enough bullets to do the job. One
    man retrieves his firearm, kills one thug, chases the other off.

    Where
    murderers encountered ARMED resistance 7 incidents

    murdered:
    11

    Where
    murderers encountered ARMED resistance; injured: 24

    296/35 =
    8.45

    Wow, where
    no resistance occurred 8.45 plus times higher body count.
    Uh geez, some of those were in schools, werent they, yeah they were.
    You do realize that the BATF since 1994 has refused to prosecute more than 1% of the 1 mil felons, or 830,000 others caught attempting to buy from a licensed source to begin with, doesnt stop anyone lying or using fake identification to pass the background check. The BATF doesnt even allow civilians access to the NICS, important as 95% of felons dont even attempt to buy from a licensed source to begin with.
    Then again, since your local politicians dont fund or resource the mental health reporting provision of the NICS, we see the following. As of July 2012 NICS databse has 1.7 mil records of people who by due process have lost their 2A right to adjudgment of mental illness, Then again, mental health professional agree that 50% of current 2.7 mil prisoners and 7% of US adults (21.8 mil) are severely mentally ill.
    Why is that important, well with multiple examples show the following. Cho the VA Tech shooters psychiatrist didnt report him before his rampage. The sheriff in AZ who refused to ppress charges against Loughner 4 to 5 times prior to the Giffords shooting as deaths threats apparently arent a felony worth pressing criminals charges. Holmes psychiatrist and the CU Risk board washed their hands of Holmes whom they had identified as a risk, when he dropped out. The Army got it somewhat right, finding 9 Army officers guilty of deriliction of duty for failing process the FT Hood shooter for mental illness and separation as procedures already in place should have been followed.
    Amazing, someone other than the law abiding gun owners, failing to enforce the laws, much less notify authorities of cuckoo for coca puffs individuals.
    Maybe you should do a little research into whether the college your child will attend believes it is acceptable to have their risk board wash their hands of such a person in the future?
    Maybe you should do a little research on whether the local or campus police active shooter procedure is to contain and control rather than instantly go after the active shooter as it has been shown that in multiple instances, contain and control waiting for SWAT just allowed the killer to kill more like at VA Tech where it was 45 minutes plus before police moved in.
    Then again, the massive majority of a police officers jobs is to draw chalk lines around the body and take statements.
    This is not even 1/10th of all the data, the massive majority of it government data, showing the fantasy that gun control reduces violence or that the law abiding gun owner who carries concealed is such a risk as nothing but a pathological lie.
    You going to tell your child where they can go to school based on unsubtantiated fears, or are you going to make an informed decision based on the real facts?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y3J7VTFOCTKRISGX377C3TCKHA See the Light

    The only guns on campus you’re ever likely to have to worry about are those brought by people like Cho of Virginia Tech infamy. Concealed carry permit holders are less likely to commit serious crimes (felonies) than are the legislators who enact laws or the police who enforce them.

    Two other factors to keep in mind: When seconds count, the police are just minutes away, and, police are six times more likely to shoot the WRONG person at the scene of a crime than are citizen gun owners.

    So send your little darling off to a school where guns are regularly carried and you’ll have less worries of her being raped, beaten, stabbed, or gunned down in a mass shooting because, where anyone might be armed, every person is a potential hazard to the “bad man”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/michael.maryak Michael Maryak

    I want to be able to carry a gun on campus but dorm rooms are an issue. I wouldn’t trust roommates who either aren’t to be trusted or them bringing in friends who aren’t to be trusted into the dorm room where my firearms might “disappear”. I know someone who is the Chief of Police of my state university and he’s had to deal with firearm thefts with students living in apartments off campus with roommates.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    But wouldn’t you just choose to NOT go to a school where this was happening, just as I would not choose to send my school based on this and a myriad of other issues? Yes this can be a wider conversation about gun rights/control/violence, but in this particular case, it’s not as much about wanting to make sure that schools DON’T loosen regs, but to be aware of what schools are so our family can help make good choices with and for my daughter.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Jason – Thank you for your post. I think one of the difficulties in dealing with the very topic of “gun” whether it is about about violence, control, freedom, etc. is that both “sides” can offer up both personal and thoughtful evidence to support their position or take down another’s so I in no way dismiss what you say, but rather see it as another view that can be offered as part of what it means to live in the United States. So thanks for sharing, but I will still encourage my daughter to avoid schools where I disagree with their gun policies. Of course people are free to go where they want, but this will be one of MANY filters that we will use.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mikenewbern Mike Newbern

    Playfulness and self-deprecation would be appropriate if my right to self-defense was not being denied.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mikenewbern Mike Newbern

    “another area I know a lot about is scientific argumentation”

    You have yet to demonstrate that knowledge. I sure hope you do a better job on your dissertation.

  • Jason Silva

    Mr. Reyes-Chow,

    As I read your blog post I caught myself wondering how much research you have done into this issue. As a college student in Utah, one of the “evil” red states from your map above, I know that the legalization of campus carry has had little-to-no impact on campus safety in our state. The results have actually been quite the opposite. Of the seventy plus colleges and universities none have had any major issues after literally hundreds of combined semesters with guns on campus.

    I will be the first to admit that I hold a strong bias in regards to this issue. I am a gun owner, a competitive shooter, a licensed firearms instructor, and I sit on the board of directors for Students for Concealed Carry, the largest college-based pro-gun organization in the country. We are responsible for adding many campuses to the list of those allowing carry. This is work I am deeply proud of.

    I know you may not understand why some chose to arm themselves. Personally, after having previously worked in law enforcement for a few years and spent two years of missionary service in the projects of Newark, NJ, I have seen a different side of our society. I believe that people are naturally good, but I also know that there are criminals willing to use deadly force to get what they want from the innocent. Because I value my life and the lives of my loved ones, I chose to be armed.

    Two years ago I was driving cross-country when I stopped for gas at around 4 am. As I came out of the gas station and headed to my car a man came out of the shadows and tried to rob me at knife-point. I drew the handgun that I was legally carrying and yelled at him to get back. He turned around and ran. No shots were fired, no one was hurt, and my gun saved my life. If you want a story more applicable to a college setting, please view Amanda Collins’ story here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSxaBEOx7c

    This is an emotionally-charged issue, but once the emotions and fear are removed, there is simply no rock solid data that shows allowing licensed and trained adults to be armed on a college campus is a bad idea.

    Jason Silva
    Board of Directors
    Students for Concealed Carry
    ConcealedCampus.org

  • brooke r.

    One of my areas of big interests is stats. I’m finishing re-writes on a PhD in Education and I focused on stats because I love them so much. Because of that I know that there is a limit to statistics, that they only tell part of the story, and that when it comes to human behavior they only tell high level information. Just like you have stats, I’m sure there is a whole lot of qualitative data out there to rebut your stats and whose arguments are just as scientific and logical (another area I know a lot about is scientific argumentation).

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Thanks for sharing this.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Dillion. Well as you read on, I do say that my daughter is much more gifted than I was. Heck, she may in fact me more mature now ;-) I do find it interesting that I have actually said nothing about those who might choose to send their kids to such colleges, but I will simply choose not to send mine and I am about 90% sure that she would not choose to as well. I also lament that in any of these very important debates we have lost the ability to see some level of humanity in one another which does in fact include playfulness and self-deprecation in the hopes to encourage actual dialogue. Blessings on whatever path you are on.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mikenewbern Mike Newbern

    “We can’t let guns on campuses. We simply can’t. I don’t have any stats or logical arguments for it…”

    We must allow licensees the right to carry on college campuses just as they do many other non-secure locations, We simply must. I do have loads of statistics and logical arguments for it.

  • brooke r.

    Public policies can’t be made devoid of emotion. Why? Because there are people behind them. People impacted, lives saved, lives lost, lives made better, lives ruined. The public policy of Israel right now is slowly but surely destroying the lives of 1.5 million people in Gaza, and doing the same to the millions in the West Bank (though less fast). But Gaza and the West Bank are far away. So, let me bring it closer. Every time I go to the souk in Baqa’a camp (I’m in Amman, Jordan – not part where Westerners live, but the North Western part where very few westerners go and Baqa’a souk is the cheapest place to shop for everything, plus my good friend has a shop there) I see and feel the impacts of public policy. I am impacted by, what I call, the emotional genocide of the Palestinian people in that camp. The people in the small hamlet between Sweliah (part of Amman) and Baqa’a I live in talk about it too- the hopelessness pervading those who can’t get out of Baqa’a. This is public policy.

    Public policy has to take into account the human because that is who it impacts. After policy has been enacted, there’s no objective reality, there’s no positivism or post positivism, there is pure naturalism happening. That public policy is interacting as close with people’s lives as any researcher who practices NOT objective reality can hope to get.

  • Dillion

    When I was in college I could barely be trusted with choosing my major

    I am sorry but please don’t compare yourself to me. You may
    have had problems adjusting to adult life and making decisions, but I do not
    have those inadequacies. Many of us are fully capable of being and acting as
    responsible adults.

  • brooke r.

    Sorry if the following got posted twice. My internet connection decided to screw with me when I hit the post button.. Crazy third world country (Jordan).

    Here’s another perspective. I’m totally against guns on campus. I do not believe that if anyone was carrying a concealed weapon with them in Norris Hall at Va Tech would have confronted Cho. The way that shooting was carried out, the methodical way he went from room to room and the fear he instilled in that building.. From all the descriptions I have read, and heard through the news, as well as hearing my stepfather talk about, it I’m convinced that it wouldn’t have made a difference. [My stepfather was on the third floor of the building, proctoring an exam. A student left and came back, reported there was shooting going on. My stepfather talked to another prof who went to check what was going on and that prof was killed.] Cho had nothing to loose, but those who were being shot did, and they were in protection mode.
    Now, I’ve always been against guns. I’m a pacifist and don’t see a need for them, besides for hunting. *Maybe* hunting. Ever since that day at Va Tech I’ve been more adamantly against guns. I wasn’t there that day, but I grew up on that campus (all 4 of my parents worked at Va Tech), and ended up suffering a slight case of PTSD because of the shootings. I hate that other communities have gone through what Blacksburg has. I hate that others have suffered like those who lost loved ones that day at Tech. I am firmly convinced that guns will not solve the violence problem.
    I remember the afternoon of that day. I was at the tail end of my first year as a PhD student and I was in the department office. One of the secretaries said “It’s too bad he shot himself because that means we can’t do it ourselves.” I had already talked to my mother at this point and from her came “we have to forgive.” This was a woman who came incredibly close to loosing her beloved. I said that to the secretary. I told her that my community had to find forgiveness rather than anger. I also told people that right then wasn’t the time for talking about gun control, it was time to let the people of Va Tech and Blacksburg heal.
    Now is the time to talk about gun control and campuses. I’m surprised to see University of Oregon on the list of campuses that allow concealed weapons. Eugene, my adopted hometown, is one freaky liberal pacifist place. We can’t let guns on campuses. We simply can’t. I don’t have any stats or logical arguments for it, I only have my faith, my commitment to non-violence (which I believe my faith calls me to), and my personal experience with Va Tech. Campuses are places where voices and minds are our weapons to use in dialogue with each other, not guns. I’ll end this long – probably too personal- response with Alix Olson, because she says it best – from the poem “Womyn Before”:”Because the words of the womyn before
    They have passed me graceful rage
    And I’m out to save the world
    When I’m not scrambling to safe face
    And I’m searching for an exit
    I want to scream fire, everybody run
    Because we are packed to tight in this world full of trouble
    The kid next to me is packing a gun.
    My mother raised me to tangle with the big boys,
    To pull out my thumb and make friends with my voice, that’s my weapon of choice.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/mikenewbern Mike Newbern

    It’s also worth noting that your residential living concern is addressed by the concealed handgun license requirements in place in most states. Ohio, much like other states, requires an applicant be at least 21, have a record free of felonies, drug related and violent misdemeanors, mental adjudications, and active orders of protection to be considered for a concealed handgun license. The applicant must also complete a 12 our safety course including range competency qualifications. These requirements ensure that law-abiding upperclassmen, graduate students, faculty, and staff who know how to safely carry, handle, and use a handgun are the ones legally carrying concealed handguns.

    Students for Concealed Carry does not want to change who can carry or otherwise own a handgun. We just want to change where someone who is licensed to carry in other non-secure locations to be able to do so on campus.

  • http://www.patheos.com/community/breyeschow/ Bruce Reyes-Chow

    Mike – While I am always thankful for unsolicited psychological assessments, I am genuinely grateful for the other information that you provide. I did look at the list of 70 and was very surprised by some of the schools on the list. At the same time, 70 is not all that large of a sample and most were smaller community colleges where my assumption is there is far less residential living. Still, your numbers about Colorado and ZERO incidents of gun violence are interesting statistics and good food for thought, so all snark aside, thanks for responding.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mikenewbern Mike Newbern

    “When I was in college I could barely be trusted with choosing my major, let alone carry a firearm.”

    The defense mechanism you just demonstrated, Mr Reyes-Chow, is one psychiatrists refer to as projection. Your daughter may learn about when she goes off to college. She’ll also learn that decisions regarding public policy are best made based on fact and void of emotion.

    Campus carry is not an untested concept. There are 70 universities and technical colleges allowing concealed carry on 220 campuses in Michigan, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Virginia and Mississippi. These campuses have a combined student population of ½ million. Add in faculty and staff and there are ¾ of a million people
    living, working, and playing on campuses allowing concealed carry. None of these campuses have experienced a single incident of gun violence (including threats and suicides), a single gun accident injuring innocent people, or a single gun theft as a result.

    In fact, Colorado recently provided a good test case. Campus carry has been legal in Colorado for ten years now. Colorado State complied with law while University of Colorado did not. During the first nine years since the law changed, crime on and near Colorado State’s campus dropped nearly 30% while crime on and near University of Colorado’s campus increased nearly 60%.

    The real question you should be asking yourself if you are sending her to a school where campus carry is not permitted is why the school she wants to attend doesn’t recognize the right to self-defense.


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