The Boy Scouts: Caught in the Culture Wars

I tend to draw the stories on scouting for the National Catholic Register, so I’ve been watching as the BSA tried to revise their policies for dealing with boys who publicly proclaim same sex attraction. It’s important to note that the BSA does not ask about sexual preference, operating on an unofficial “don’t ask, don’t tell policy” that quite reasonably kept the private sexual habits of people–particularly minors–out of the organization.

The gay lobby and their allies, however, have made it clear that this is no longer an option. Sexuality, long a province of the private sphere–must now be dragged into the sunlight to be celebrated. People who would attempt to demur, or decline to admit same sex relationships on equal footing with opposite sex relationships, must be labelled bigots, targeted, and beaten into submission.

The gays have been pursuing the Scouts for years. Ever since homosexual activist James Dale argued all the way to the Supreme Court for his right to go camping with 14-year-old boys (and rightfully lost based on the BSA’s right to freedom of association), the Scouts have been chased from public buildings, seen their funding attacked, and come under a withering media onslaught. They weathered it well, stuck to their values, and continued on their merry way trying to form boys in civic virtue and manhood without obsessing over-much on gay sex, which is so low on the list of things that concern reasonable Americans as to be invisible.

By the way, it’s also a youth organization that has chastity as required virtue, so scouts aren’t supposed to be engaged in sexual conduct anyway, gay or straight. If you try to hit the combox with arguments that homosexuality is about love not sex, please save yourself the effort. Homosexuality minus sexual attraction is friendship. I object to the current trend of people declaring their sexual habits as they would declare their race or religion, because it shifts homosexuality from behavioral to ontological. “Gay” becomes your identity: your very being.

It’s as though we suddenly find ourselves in a world where people approach you and are compelled to say, “I’m left handed.” And you’re supposed to respond, “That’s awesome! Let’s have a parade!”

And the idea of “gay teens” is particularly problematic. There are, quite obviously, same-sex attracted teens, but the idea that teenagers, who can’t even settle on a hairstyle or a musical preference, can declare a fixed lifetime sexual identity is absurd. Adolescence is a time of flux and experimentation. The emotional and sexual tsunami of teen years is trying enough when we’re just dealing with the behavior and its ramifications.

When we attach ontology to the mix (making these desires central to being), we just make everything more confusing. A teen with same-sex attraction is now a “Gay Teen.” It’s like joining a club you can never leave. There really isn’t a lot I believed or desired at 15 that I believe or desire now. (And the same people who say that gay isn’t a choice also say that sexuality is fluid. I really wish they’d make up their minds. )

In short, most adult homosexuals experience their first same-sex attraction as teens, but not all teens with same-sex attraction grow up to be adult homosexuals.

Setting that “identity” in amber with the current trend of “out teens” ignores the complex psychological, social, situational, and developmental issues that swirl around a lifetime of sexual behavior. There have always been young men (including Boy Scouts) who engage in same-sex sexual behavior without it being central to their identity, or even repeated. Most just grow out of it. Labeling and politicizing this behavior–the ontological shift–is a new phenomena.

The Boy Scouts knew this. They sought to keep sexuality out of their organization. But society–meaning the elite, the media, the politicians, and the activists–has decided sexuality must be everywhere, always, open, and in-your-face.

Their goal–which they will continue to pursue–is to lift the ban on gay scouts and adult leaders. That’s a non-starter for the same reason the Girl Scouts wouldn’t let me overnight with 16-year-old girls.

And can I just add: “Duh.”

The Scouts have already had abuse scandals. Can you imagine what will happen when (not if) an openly gay leader has sex (“consensual” or otherwise) with a Scout?

The initial plan was to kick the decision for allowing openly gay scouts and adult leaders back to the councils and the units. This would have allowed units chartered to a religious organization (which comprise 70% of all units) to set their own policy.

Both gay activists and religious groups argued this was incoherent and would create a patchwork of rules, leading to chaos for regional and national events.

The compromise was to add a sentence to the requirements for being a Scout that explicitly said no Scout would be rejected for reasons of sexual preference alone. It seems fairly clear that the National Catholic Committee on Scouting gave tacit approval to this compromise to prevent a full lifting of the ban.

Bishop Robert Guglielmone, the USCCB episcopal liaison for the National Catholic Committee on Scouting (NCCS), told me that the Church can “live with” this compromise.

“I kind of expected that this is the way the vote would go,” Bishop Guglielmone told the Register. “I’m not particularly encouraged by it, but I knew it would happen eventually. As the policy change is right now promoted, we can live with it. Unfortunately, there are many people who are interpreting this policy to go much further than it actually does, particularly in the secular press.”

“My concern is that we have well over half a million young people in the program,” he said, “and most of those kids are going to stay no matter what happens. We have a real obligation to stay in dialogue and to stay connected to the program.”

Added the bishop, “The leadership of the BSA has made it very clear that they intend to hold the line on adult leaders, but they also said they would hold the line on this issue, so where this could go, I don’t know. That’s why I feel it’s imperative for the Church to continue to be involved. And if it gets to the point where some of our basic issues are threatened — such as being able to pick leaders for Catholic chartered groups or in diminishing the role of religion and God — then we will have to re-evaluate our participation in the program at that time.”

The wording of the resolution seems almost custom-made to appeal to Catholics, separating as it does being and behavior. On that level I don’t object to it. The idea of a boy being removed from a fraternal organization devoted to cultivating character and morals at a time when he’s struggling with sexual identity seems cruel and contrary to the principles of scouting.

It’s certainly not Catholic to “kick people out” because of an inclination to sin. We don’t even kick people out for sinning. We’re supposed to be the hospital for sinners. We’re the people who separate being and behavior–sinner and sin–because we know that a person is not their sin.

Activists are pushing these boys to “come out.” They’re being used as shock troops to advance an agenda, when in fact most would probably rather just go about their own struggles and deal with their desires without getting a giant rainbow “I’m gay!” banner tied to them. The number of boys dismissed from the Scouts for homosexual inclination is vanishingly small for a very simple reason: the BSA doesn’t ask. A “gay Boy Scout” might as well be a unicorn.

On the other hand, I understand that Catholic families may head for the hills in the wake of the decision. The shift in policy shows that the BSA is willing to concede moral high ground. It’s a victory for the gay lobby, which has already declared that they’re unhappy with the compromise and will continue to pester, sue, and otherwise harass the BSA until openly gay adult leaders are approved. That time will come, either sooner or later, because the idea of the primacy of conscience, freedom of association, and freedom of religion have been destroyed in the modern era.

When they win that victory, the BSA will cease to exist as anything but a shadow of its former glory. No reasonable parent will send a child or teen off with an adult leader who may desire sex with him. That’s insanity.

The problem is that the policy, while reasonable, is also incoherent. Scouting is a lifetime commitment for most. The rule essentially banishes men from the Scouting leadership once they turn 18.

It also raises countless practical questions. If a boy declines to share a two-person tent at summer camp with a gay scout, will he be subjected to criticism and complaint? Putting two gay scouts together in those tents doesn’t solve the problem: you wouldn’t put a heterosexual teenage boy and a heterosexual teenage girl in the same tent, would you?

I don’t envy the position the Scouts are in. They are an honorable group being used for the culture wars, and it ill suits them. They just wanted to help boys be men. They wanted to stand by their values, which are the same always and everywhere, and not subject to the shifting winds of moral relativism. That was the mission and the vision of Lord Baden-Powell. In a world where manhood is demeaned and degraded more with each passing year, they are more essential than ever.

And at just the point when they are most needed, they are distracted, pummeled, weakened.

Kicking out Scouts for publicly proclaiming a desire was never optimal. In most cases, the units and councils rolled with these things and dealt with them privately and sensibly. Activists, however, engineered some very public cases in order to force the issue, and left the BSA struggling for a response. The response pleased no one, however, and the battle is far from over.

Meanwhile, the boys who need them–including boys struggling with same-sex attraction–will become just more causalities of the culture war.

About Thomas L. McDonald

Thomas L. McDonald writes about technology, theology, history, games, and shiny things. Details of his rather uneventful life as a professional writer and magazine editor can be found in the About tab.

  • Gia

    It’s over for the BSA. They opened the door a crack, and now the tsunami will find its way in. Our children, already pummeled in school and in the media, are more important than parsing BSA regulations or crossing our fingers and hoping nothing goes horribly South (which it WILL). If anyone knows about these moral hazards — and how institutions often don’t deal well with them — it’s the Catholic Church. To me, it’s quite permissible and absolutely preferable to wish the Scouts well, turn on heel firmly and walk away without a backward glance, taking our boys with us. The BSA will fall of its own weight. We don’t need to sacrifice the souls and peace of mind of our beleaguered boys to prop up a group that has caved under and negated its reason for being. Taylor Marshall is pushing forward with his faithful Catholic Scouts of St. George, which sounds like a terrific idea. The wishes and hopes of adults count for NOTHING here against protecting our children from activists who will stop at nothing to get their way.

  • Kingfisher

    Leaving aside the shocking prejudice behind everything you have written here, I would just comment that I am a male expedition assessor for a girls’ secondary school. Of course I am required to “overnight” – as you put it – with teenage girls, I could hardly safeguard their wellbeing from a nearby hotel. Adult assessors camp at a distance from the young participants in the expedition, we observe and assess their performance and then give constructive feedback on their achievements. Male or female, straight or gay, young people need adult support in outdoor and adventurous activities. Sexual orientation is irrelevant in this context and your attempts to make it pertinent will just drive away the volunteers that our young people need to develop self-confidence and experience challenge and adventure in a safe and secure environment.

  • Colin Gormley

    >Leaving aside the shocking prejudice behind

    Demonstrating the inability of those on the pro-lobby side to comprehend the basic aspects of the conversation and the willingness to label anyone who disagrees with them as bigots, a bigoted position if there ever was one.

  • http://www.godandthemachine.com/ Thomas L. McDonald

    Thank you for proving my point: “traditional view of human sexuality and merciful response to challenging situations” equals “shocking prejudice” of “everything” I’ve written. Fascinating.

  • http://twitter.com/waywardson23 James

    I have daughters, so Boy Scouts isn’t an issue for us.

    Interesting when there is trouble with the Boy Scouts, “faithful Catholics” promise to develop an alternative “Catholic Scouts”.

    When there is a problem with the Girl Scouts….***crickets chirping***

  • http://twitter.com/waywardson23 James

    How do you feel about having straight men lead Girl Scouts?

  • http://www.godandthemachine.com/ Thomas L. McDonald
  • Michael Lindner

    I’m with you except for the notion that the scouts were forced into this position by outside forces. It is the national scout committee that is forcing this upon the scouts. After the trial balloon in February resulted in such backlash, they revised positions and issues “polls” design to push things so that a softer version of what they wanted could be justified. Not that the pressure didn’t come from without, but in the end the scouts have been betrayed by their own leaders.

  • momof3

    THANK YOU!!! As the cubmaster for our parish’s pack, I have been getting all kinds of emails. And my response has been ‘it’s about the boys”……even when people were verbally assaulting my sons and me for being involved with “homophobic organization”, my response has been it’s about the boys. Now it’s about a group of parents who felt left out (because really, these are all pushed by parents….I don’t know any 13 year olds filing affidavits on a Saturday morning)This is big and messy and horrible, but that’s what we get when we don’t make a show. (and by the numbers, we made an amazingly lousy show- about 8,000 units chartered by the Church in the US)

  • http://www.godandthemachine.com/ Thomas L. McDonald

    Yes, in the sense that Randall Stephenson and James Turley agitated for it (see my story on that here: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/boy-scouts-postpone-decision-about-homosexuals/). But without the outside pressure, they wouldn’t have gotten any traction.

  • http://twitter.com/waywardson23 James

    My point is that finding an alternative to Girl Scouts seems less of a priority than finding an alternative to Boy Scouts.

  • Gia

    The guy starting the Scouts of St. George is an Eagle Scout, so he’s deeply attached to the Scouting ideal. It’s a grassroots effort. Better to ask, why no adult former Girl Scouts have stepped up, as Taylor Marshall has, to create an alternative for girls?

  • Kaehurowing

    Well, because of the national decision our church will have to drop its sponsorship of the Boy Scouts, because we will not support any organization that endorses homosexuality, something that is directly contrary to God’s Word. The fact that the homosexual activists had to make the youth of America their target to advance their agenda is especially reprehensible, but probably the majority of churches here will be pulling out of Scouting. Whether Scouting survives is still to be seen. Hopefully an ethical and moral alternative will develop.

    And I also suspect that many church insurers are going to say churches are opening themselves up to sexual abuse suits by continuing to support the Scouts, and will not provide insurance to cover such activities. Under pressure of the trial lawyers, our sexual abuse laws here were just expanded by the legislature to mandate liability of supervising institutions for sexual abuse of one minor by another (e.g., if one Scout sexually molested another), so insurance companies are going to have a lot of problems with insuring churches sponsoring Boy Scout troops in our state.

    Anyone who thinks the homosexual assault on the Boy Scouts is going to stop with what just happened is denying reality. This was just the setup for demands for “full equality,” and “discrimination” lawsuits starting in 2014.

  • Kaehurowing

    Yes, that is always the strategy, isn’t it? Just wanting to keep our kids in a wholesome environment and not exposed to agitation advancing certain sexual behavior now becomes “homophobia” and “hatred.” The fact is, sex, whether heterosexual or homosexual, has no part in Scouting. And yet now the homosexual activists have made it a core belief. Most folks with kids are not going to want to be part of the battleground and will leave, just like most families with children left the “progressive” Protestant churches that have made advocating for homosexuality a core belief of their churches.

  • KW

    There is an alternative for the girl scouts… The American Heritage Girls.

  • http://profiles.google.com/kywrite Jamie Wilson

    I have two little girls and I would never allow them to “overnight” with a male leader without female chaperones I trust. I also have an autistic and socially vulnerable teen who I would never let “overnight” with a gay man in a leadership position. You can call me bigoted. I know I’m being a good parent.

  • http://twitter.com/waywardson23 James

    That’s not a Catholic organization. I’m more concerned with my daughters picking up bad ideas from a Protestant AHG troop than from the Girl Scout troop sponsored by my parish and run by devout Catholic women.

    Bishop Robert Guglielmone is my bishop. If there is a problem with either the Girl Scouts or the Boy Scouts, we’ll be the first to know.

  • Faith

    My daughter is in an American Heritage Troop sponsored by a Catholic parish. It is wonderful! We have been involed for three years and We love it. So I suggest you might not dismiss it so easily.

  • Timothy Jones

    Google “Little Flowers”. I believe it’s a Ctholic alternative to GS that has been around a little while.

  • Timothy Jones

    Absolutely spot on. Pitch perfect.

  • Guest

    “Bishop Robert Guglielmone, the USCCB episcopal liaison for the National Catholic Committee on Scouting (NCCS), told me that the Church can “live with” this compromise.”
    I’m absolutely stunned and ashamed at this response from a Catholic bishop. Where on earth has our leadership gone? You’ve GOT to be kidding!

  • saa5of5

    AHG is a wonderful alternative. Our local troop is absolutely Catholic-run. Girl Scout individual troops may be well led by faithful Catholics, but you can’t get away from the organization’s connection to Planned Parenthood and abortion. I would never have my girls associated with them any more than I will now have my son remain with Boy Scouts. But he, at 16, had more resolve than even his parents to see that, plain as day.

  • Kathleen

    American Heritage Girls is not a Protestant organization. They are chartered by churches and there are Catholic troops and protestant troops. Our AHG troop is run by devout Catholic women as well. http://www.ahgonline.org

  • saa5of5

    I can’t tell you how shocked and appalled I am by the response of USCCB spokesperson, Bishop Robert Guglielmone: “I’m not particularly encouraged by it, but I knew it would happen eventually. As the policy change is right now promoted, we can live with it.”

    We don’t wait, “until on of our basic issues is threatened”! What a backward assumption to say you stay involved because Scouts will stay, “no mater what”! We need REAL leadership for these boys. Believe me, they’re paying attention to what you say now! This is shameful and a direct assault on the Catholic faith and Bishop Guglielmone’s response sounds like a casual comment between sips of tea. I can’t tell you how disheartening this is. If you want us to follow, you have to LEAD with courage, conviction, and whether you wear the red hat or not, a willingness to DIE for the Truth. WHERE IS MY CHURCH!!??

  • Sterling Ericsson

    The whole point is that gay scouts and scout leaders shouldn’t be kicked out for their sexuality. This is not about forcing anyone to “come out”. The point is to make it that, should sexuality ever be brought up or otherwise found out, the Boy Scouts can’t use it as a discriminatory reason to kick people out of the organization.

    And your snide side comment about scout leaders and scouts is just offensive. Do you believe that all straight males want to have sex with little girls, that all straight males are pedophiles? Of course not. Neither are homosexual males.

  • http://www.parafool.com/ victor

    Honest question: does there still exist now a rationale for limiting the scouts to just boys? If sexuality is the be all and end all of everything, and is fluid and interchangeable, is there a valid reason now why they shouldn’t include girls?

  • http://www.parafool.com/ victor

    Check out the Little Flowers Girls’ Club: http://littleflowersgirlsclub.blogspot.com/

  • Michael Lindner

    …and it is my understanding that much of the “outside” pressure came from, or at least with the approval of AT&T and Ernst & Young. Certainly AT&T seems to be running Jamboree 2013 unchecked.

    By the way, I’d like to hear your opinion on Taylor Marshall’s “Scouts of St. George” movement: http://www.taylormarshall.com/2013/05/why-im-starting-new-boy-scouts-my.html

    Oh, and I didn’t say this earlier, but thanks for such a well reasoned article.

  • Ed Peters

    I think this is a good essay, but what in it supports this assertion: “The shift in policy shows that the BSA is willing to concede moral high ground.” The sentence seems completely disconnected with the rest of this thoughtful essay. Does McD mean the BSA already DID concede the moral high ground, and if so, where exactly? Does he mean they MIGHT concede the moral high ground? Well, sure, they might, but then, so might anybody, Deus vetet. Anyway, the line just really sticks out oddly, even as matter of rhetorical drafting.

  • http://www.facebook.com/monica.pope.56 Monica Pope

    i appreciate McDonald’s warning against codifying a tween/ teen’s preferences/ behaviors and experiences. So much damage can be done when a young adult feels s/he is not free to rise above his/ her adolescent faults and failures! young people who experience same sex attraction are so often exploited by the adults in their lives– these days they’re exploited for the purpose of gay advocacy.

    it’s possible the pro-gay advocacy and corporate sponsorship that drove the BSA vote may have unwittingly given the US Church a marvelous teaching moment to reiterate the dignity of the human person, to make clear the difference between a person’s tendencies and a person’s behaviors AND to speak again to the truth that a person’s value is not measure by his/ her proclivities. and it gives the Church (and its members) the opportunity to proclaim (in true charity and without patronizing) that we are ALL works in progress and that change is not only possible but probable.

    I believe the conversation should have never advanced as far as BSA taking a vote, but if the vote was inevitable, lifting the ban (while re-iterating the enforcement of moral behavior) was the right choice.

    might the admission of openly gay tweens and teens while upholding morality within the troop, be, practically speaking, an untenable position? yes. it may be. might BSA fall apart? sadly, yes. it might. (on the other hand, fiercely pro-gay corporations may find their pockets deeper for BSA than ever before.)

    are gay adult Scouters the next concession? probably.

    My husband and I, parents of an Eagle Scout, ended our participation in BSA more than a decade ago because the Troops in which our younger sons participated failed to uphold the “morally straight” aspect of the BSA oath. Boys regularly engaged in lewd conversations of sexual exploits (real or imagined), Pornography was passed around at camp-outs. Adult Scouters dismissed the behavior as “boys will be boys.” We would not continue to put our sons in the occasion of sin.

    I wonder that such lax troops will now, with these open admissions, find themselves entirely ill equipped for the task of upholding the ‘morally straight’ aspect of the oath.

    as stated, the bishops will feel a responsibility to the boys who are already deeply invested in Scouting. as a Catholic parent, my responsibilities are different. i’m responsible to uphold the Church’s teachings on human dignity and avoiding unjust discrimination AND I’m responsible to choose morally straight environments for our sons.

    many Catholic parents may decide that BSA does not satisfy both demands.

  • http://facebook.com/dballing/ Derek Balling

    “By the way, it’s also a youth organization that has chastity as required virtue, so scouts aren’t supposed to be engaged in sexual conduct anyway, gay or straight. If you try to hit the combox with arguments that homosexuality is about love not sex,please save yourself the effort. Homosexuality minus sexual attraction is friendship.”

    I call shenanigans. You can be chaste and still have sexual attraction and desires. Even the most devout of Catholics, firm in their chastity, would admit (at least if they’re honest) to having sexual attraction to their partner *even if they don’t act on it*.

    That doesn’t make a dating couple – straight or gay – into “just friends” because they’re not engaging in sexual congress, there is still love there.

    You say you have a problem with “gay teens” and that the idea that they “can declare a fixed lifetime sexual identity is absurd.” No more absurd than the idea that the high-school football star can see the head of the cheerleading squad and realize “yep, I’m straight, I like girls.”

    You’re correct that some teens who self-identify as gay will turn out later to be straight. But — just as possible — is that teens who self-identify as straight will later come out as gay. There is no reason to believe that “a gay teen wanting to join Scouts” is somehow setting their sexual identity “in amber” as you put it. It’s a free country, and they can have greater clarity about their own desires later, easily enough.

    What the Scouting decision says, essentially, is there is no judgment made on you, as a person, for having those feelings, one way or the other. Actually acting on those sexual drives – gay or straight – remains something anathema to Scouting, obviously.

    And, I’m sorry but you can’t with a straight face say that the Scouts “tried to keep sexuality out of their organization” and then a couple sentences later talk about a formal ban they had on people of a given sexuality. The fact is they DIDN’T try to keep sexuality out of the organization, they tried to keep HOMOsexuality out of their organization. And it was absolutely their constitutional right to make that choice, make no mistake, but as you point out, that choice came with consequences when they were asking the public at large for support.

    You can try to assert that “freedom of association” has “been destroyed in the modern era” but that’s not in any way true. BSA v Dale proved HANDILY that freedom of association is alive and well and protected. But what doesn’t exist in the modern era is a way for organizations to make those sort of exclusionary choices and have nobody else know about it. They’re not able to simply gloss it over and sweep it under the rug. In the modern era, we like to know that the people, the organizations, we’re supporting financially share our values, and what the BSA found to its chagrin was that its supporters weren’t all that supportive of that decision.

    Yes, there were folks making a show, to make a point, to get the word out, but there’s nothing inherently wrong in standing up for what one believes, taking a stand against what one sees as an inequality, and letting other people decide the truth or falsehood of such. In fact, one could argue, that’s exactly the sort of behavior we should expect from strong, free-thinking, intelligent youths who have had Scouting there to build their sense of character.

  • http://facebook.com/dballing/ Derek Balling

    endorse
    Verb
    1. Declare one’s public approval or support of.
    2. Recommend (a product) in an advertisement.

    I don’t see that the BSA does either of these things in this decision. “endorsing” and “not condemning” are not the same thing.

  • http://facebook.com/dballing/ Derek Balling

    it already happens. They simply have rules that men cannot be alone with the girls without female leadership also present. They can even be the 01 (ie, Scoutmaster) for their local group.

  • JoFro

    In the UK, they already include girls – they went from being Boy Scouts to just Scouts. Now there are more girls in scouting than there are boys. And the same will be the case of the BSA – expect Transgender Scouts to demand they be allowed to participate or sue BSA for discrimination! This policy has opened a can of worms and the quislings running the BSA know it – eventually they are going to be sued for discrimination – it will either come from 18-yr-old gay scouts who are being refused leadership positions or come from transsexual scouts who claim not admitting them is discrimination against gay scouts!

  • JoFro

    I believe it’s a wait and see attitude – something the Mormons are doing as well. If it comes to the BSA eventually being forced by the Supreme Court to allow for gay scout leaders, expect the Mormons to leave – or maybe by then the Mormon leader will get a revelation from God claiming homosexual behavior is OK as well. As for the Catholics, you can be ashamed if the Church leadership continues to allow for its young men to be a part of the Boy Scouts. But then again, have Catholic bishops ever condemned Catholics who participate in Girl Guides? Heck no! Crdl Dolan even gave a top prize to a woman who leads the Girl Guides! So why are you suddenly expecting leadership from a bunch spineless imbeciles?

  • JoFro

    Where was the Catholic outrage from the bishops when the Girl Guides went off the rails? There are still thousands of Catholic parishes that allow for their girls to participate in Girl Guides. If they kept quiet about the Girl Guides, why expect them to say anything now with the Boy Scouts?

  • saa5of5

    It probably has to do with how we respond. In the “whole church,” in the “domestic church,” let’s face it – often the squeky wheel gets the oil. I’ve followed some of the Girl Scout situation and remember reading it was being reviewed by some CC authority, probably the USCCB. I don’t remember reading any conclusion.

  • http://facebook.com/dballing/ Derek Balling

    They can sue for discrimination all they want. BSA v Dale set the precedent conclusively and those plaintiffs would lose.

  • JoFro

    Well, we shall see!

  • heather

    This is the most clear and logical piece I have read on this issue. THANK YOU. It
    bugged me when I read Danielle Bean over at catholicdigest dot com has been on twitter referring to catholics who think the BSA really screwed up as Pharisees. And she is admittedly uninformed on the details. It’s upsetting. But at any rate, thank you sir for putting into words so eloquently what I have been thinking.

  • fondatorey

    Wonderful essay, thank you. What I find shocking is how unbelievably shameless the (decades long) push to get gay men into scout camps is. The corresponding behavior pattern on the ‘straight’ side to out-gay male behavior isn’t fathers-with-daughters, its frat boys, so imagine a campaign by fraternities to get counseling jobs in cheerleader camps for high school girls and you have an idea of what we are talking about here. You have to be desperately uncynical to believe the high minded ‘anti-discrimination’ baloney that TV wants us to believe.

    I mean last year all we heard about was awful it was that the Penn State football program did nothing to stop a pervert preying on younger boys. This year all we hear about is how the Boy Scouts must stop their wildly successful but perhaps overly broad policy because … just shut up and comply!

  • tedseeber

    You just gave me another reason to be opposed to this. Scouting just wants boys to become men.

    Male Homosexuals, at least the ones I’ve met, aren’t men. They don’t know the first thing about being men.

  • tedseeber

    Catholic Daughters Junior Court.

  • tedseeber

    Looks like Catholic Daughters Court 110 has a Junior Court there in Charleston.

  • tedseeber

    “Do you believe that all straight males want to have sex with little girls, that all straight males are pedophiles?”

    I believe all straight teenagers, if given the chance, will become pedophiles. I know because I came very close to being one.

  • tedseeber

    There is no such thing as a conclusive precedent in a society that has rejected objective morality.

  • Sterling Ericsson

    I can’t comment about your personal inclinations as a teenager, but I can fully say that I never had them and i’m quite sure most other people would say the same.

    Maybe you should explain what you mean by pedophile and teenagers, because two kids of the same age doesn’t make them pedophiles if they’re interested in each other.

  • tedseeber

    I don’t have time tonight for the comment below to come out of moderation. This link is relevant to that discussion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precocious_puberty

    Fact of the matter is that you can become a pedophile by mistake. And have to register as one legally.

    If you claim you only were ever attracted to women within three weeks of your own age, I’m going to call you a liar.

    Between three weeks and three years, it depends on the governmental jurisdiction whether you are a pedophile or not.

    Greater than three years, you most certainly would be, and I know a good many 18 year old heterosexuals who would be attracted to an 11 year old girl who already needs a D cup bra.

  • Mark O’Neill

    Really? Bishop “Bob” has no spine and apparently doesn’t read the news. The Girl Scouts have been a cesspool of feminist, pro-abortion propaganda for years. Faithful Catholics have had nothing to do with them for a long time. Please see the link below if you can stomach it.

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/cw/post.php?id=240

  • Alex Winston

    No, you can become a sex offender easily I guess. Pedophilia is quite different. You need to look up the definition.

  • Alex Winston

    Everything about this article is dumb. The writer sounds uneducated and repressed.

  • TheodoreSeeber

    The legal definition is statutory rape. That is the definition I am using.

  • Korou

    I have an uncle who’s gay. He knows a lot about being a man. He’s a very good man. I also know or know of other men who are both good and gay. Maybe you should try meeting more of them.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    “Putting two gay scouts together in those tents doesn’t solve the
    problem: you wouldn’t put a heterosexual teenage boy and a heterosexual
    teenage girl in the same tent, would you?”

    People with a homosexuality agenda just lie and they lie and they lie…

    And it’s countless boys out there that are going be sexually harassed and molested because of the liberal obsession to normalize homosexuality and run away from telling people with homosexual problems that they are responsible for investigating them and resolving them.

  • tedseeber

    I tried for many years. Seems the only thing they know how to do is insult everybody else and blame all their woes on oppression.

    That isn’t being a man. That is being such a coward that you are even afraid to live with a woman and have a normal heterosexual relationship.

  • Alex Winston

    Statutory rape and pedophilia are very different. Do more research.

  • TheodoreSeeber

    In psychology maybe- but considering that that is a science based on the writings of a cocaine addict, I’ve pretty much given up on any truth from THAT point of view.

    By society’s methodology, a pedophile is a man (until recently anyway- as Florida has just charged a lesbian with the same crime) who is over the age of majority who has sex with a significantly younger person. Used to be only a day’s difference when I was charged with it.

  • stef

    I’d be more concerned about my sons AND daughters picking up bad ideas from CINOs than from God-fearing Protestants. Boy Scout membership was open to all religions. AHG’s the same thing. AHG was/is the moral/Godly alternative to GSA. Now that BSA took that away from us, we’ll either go with Faith Based Boys or the Catholic Scouts — or, hopefully, Faith Based Boys with St. George as its Catholic arm — which is how AHG is set up — faith-based, with Catholic troops here and there to choose from.

  • Kyler Phoenix

    A pedophile is someone (any gender) who is attracted to undeveloped children. There is a difference between being developed and not. A pretty big difference. I don’t know what exactly you were charged with but as I suggested, perhaps, more reading and studying is required of you. That cocaine quip kind of says it all.

  • Alex Winston

    A pedophile is someone ( of any gender) that is attracted to undeveloped children.

  • TheodoreSeeber

    I’ve likely done far more reading on this subject than you have. But simply put the “I am not a pedophile” defense tried by Catholic Priests doesn’t fly in the court of public opinion.

  • TheodoreSeeber

    That’s the technical definition. The definition in the media is different.

  • Alex Winston

    Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about since you don’t even understand the simple definition of the term. Your last sentence makes no sense.

  • TheodoreSeeber

    Since the majority of boys abused by priests were above age 11, the Church tried the defense that these men were not pedophiles. The articles in the New York Times were the result.

    The world has denied the idea that pedophilia is restricted to just attraction to prepubescent children.


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