My Gay Roommate

Tim and I met a few years ago at a 24 watch party. His natural intelligence, unabashed geekiness, and “Snaps” skills made us quick friends. Plus, he managed a Starbucks so there was free coffee in it for me.

Before long, I needed a new place to live and so did he. With a third friend, we rented a house together. Our friendship grew. Soon, I discovered that Tim is a serious Christian whose poignant reflections on faith and life set him apart from the pack. He was an usher in my wedding. One day, Tim told me that he had been in a years-long battle with same-sex attraction. Thus began a new aspect of our friendship.

I don’t know if my feeble attempts to support him helped at all, but Tim’s transparency was important for me. I learned a lot about the many different ways individuals experience homosexual inclination, the extent of sexual promiscuity amongst gays, and what is and isn’t helpful for those of us seeking to love our friends and family members grappling with homosexuality.

One lesson in particular stands out from the rest. Tim vacillated between acceptance of his sexual inclinations and the greater calling of his faith for years before finally finding rest in the decision to let Jesus be enough. That arduous journey was made much, much more difficult by voices from within the Church encouraging him to embrace his inclination to homosexuality.

During times when I wonder if my work with the Manhattan Declaration is worth it, I think about Tim. I imagine what it would be like if friends, counselors, pastors, and theologians worked to convince me that my greatest struggles with sin were unnecessary. That to  be prideful, lusty, and greedy is just “how I was made” and that God loves me just the same. How tempting to believe such a lie! How much would I need voices of truth reminding me of my higher calling? To remind me that  while God loves me just as I am, He loves me enough to make possible something greater?

When it comes to policy, God’s purpose for each human life is not an argument that yields great results in the public square. And that’s okay. Science,  reason, and experience ought to form the basis of our arguments; ultimately, all truth points to the Creator. But the Manhattan Declaration is about much more than just public policy. Its subtitle is “A call of Christian conscience.” We aim to remind the Church of its role as the voice of Truth, no matter the prevailing tides in the broader culture or politics. To speak Truth is to love.

Learn more about Tim’s story in his own words! Check out the video below:

embedded by Embedded Video

vimeo DirektWatch on Vimeo

 

 

 

 

  • Bill

    You are a sick man, Eric.

    A sick, bigoted man.

    [edited by blogs admin for profanity]

    • Dea.Raymond Johns

      Bill.U need to chill.there’s no need for men to have sex with another man.

      • Sasha

        This is probably the most horrific abuse of Christianity… forcing gay Christians to be ashamed of their identity. Did Jesus really help the world? 2,000 years to end slavery, I think not. When will Christians stop cherry-picking the Bible to support their bigotry? I think if you aren’t willing to do so in a secular society, your religion will eventually go the way of the Egyptian religion, which lasted 5,000 years. It makes reasoned, rational people sick to listen to your hypocrisy. Show me one thing Jesus wrote. Show me one thing he said about homosexulaity? If Jesus brought about a new covenant with God, I guess you missed the point.

        • Mo

          @ Sasha –

          “This is probably the most horrific abuse of Christianity… forcing gay Christians to be ashamed of their identity. ”

          Show me where anyone is being forced into anything.

          “Did Jesus really help the world? 2,000 years to end slavery, I think not.”

          What on earth do you mean by this?

          ” When will Christians stop cherry-picking the Bible to support their bigotry?”

          What bigotry was promoted in this article or in the video? What verses were cherry picked to support this bigotry in the article or the video? Please show them to me.

          “It makes reasoned, rational people sick to listen to your hypocrisy.”

          You mean reasoned and rational like you, making accusations of bigotry and hypocrisy without one shred of evidence to support your claims?

          ” Show me one thing Jesus wrote. Show me one thing he said about homosexulaity?”

          Your comments here demonstrate to me that you have zero interest in what Jesus said. (He didn’t technically write anything, since others wrote down His words, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.)

          “If Jesus brought about a new covenant with God, I guess you missed the point.”

          Tell me, what is your understanding of the OT and its relationship to the NT in general, and then in regards to homosexuality?

        • Rob

          @Sasha – in Matthew 15: 19-20, Jesus said ” For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person;”

    • Mo

      It’s always enlightening to witness the so-called tolerance of the pro-homosexual side.

      Hey, Bill, why are you such an intolerant hate-filled bigot? Why did your post need to be edited because you were apparently swearing/using vulgar language toward people who think differently on this issue than you do?

      Why is it acceptable for you to behave in this manner, and yet if anyone even dares to express the slightest disagreement with homosexuality, they are called “bigot”, “homophobe”, “intolerant” and all the rest?

      I’m not expecting any reply. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve asked this question to people on the pro-homosexuality side, only to be ignored.

      Perhaps I’ll be pleasantly surprised this time and actually receive a response?

  • http://www.nathanmagnuson.com Nathan Magnuson

    Tim is a good guy! Thanks for what you’re doing with the Manhattan Project.

  • Michael A. Crognale

    Nicely done. I applaud your efforts to show Tim the Narrow rocky path to righteousness. May he continue to win his battles with Satan.

  • Craig

    Sometimes it’s enlightening to turn the table:

    That arduous journey was made much, much more difficult by voices from within the Church encouraging him to [reject] his inclination to homosexuality.

    I think about [myself]. I imagine what it would be like if friends, counselors, pastors, and theologians worked to convince me that my [own hopes for intimacy, love, and marriage] were [abominable]. That [my desire to love my wife] is just [perverted] and that God’s [wrath is upon me when I act on such desires]. How much would I need voices of truth reminding [to be clear-headed]? To remind me that while God loves me just as I am?

    • Eric Teetsel

      That’s an interesting tactic Craig. As someone who doesn’t share Tim’s struggle with homosexuality, I can’t say I know of the specific pain you describe. I have experienced the pain, anger, and fear that comes with wondering if my own sexuality would ever be realized in the context of marriage. For years, I watched as my closest friends and family members got to get married and experience something I desperately wanted for myself. It was really hard. Ultimately, I had to accept that Jesus had a plan for my life that was better than my own plan.

    • Doug

      Craig,
      I’m confused with what you are stating as compared to this story? He’s stating that “there were” people within the church that condoned what he was doing within the church, which made it more difficult in his struggle with homosexuality. You’re stating the opposite about referencing people trying to convince him it was abominable. Yes, God loves us dearly, but to say God loves us just as I am, depends on were you are at in your life. He loves you, but hates your sin, and mine! If I’m reading your response incorrectly, I apologize, as I read him stating in this article that people within the church inclined him toward his homosexuality, which would be abominable in itself for the church, or a christian to do so…God bless.

      • http://harvest.org Matt

        Well said. God loves us too much to leave us where we are. He didn’t die on the cross just so we could stay the same(Rom 8:29). Unfortunately, Satan has tricked many into labeling homosexuality(and desires) as a special sin. It is sin, but it is not different than greed, pride, coveting etc in that all are sin. When I say that, I don’t hate people who practice or have homosexual desires. They have a particular sin they deal with. I myself struggle with non-gay pornography. Should I just expect God(and Christians) to love me and not want me to leave that? I hope not. I do however hate the sin that grips all of us. It’s just the world has convinced so many that this is not a choice, and is therefore above judgement. We certainly can’t totally control what we desire, but can control if we act upon it through Christ(key being the last to words).

        I don’t want God to leave me where I am. I am sinful not only because I sin, but because I’m a sinner and therefore need Jesus to cover me and present me to the Father in His righteousness.

      • min

        Episcopal (which is what Obama attends) and ELCA condone homosexuality as long as it is monogamous. I think God loves everyone, but to basically say to God, go to hell, I am going to do what I want and not repent for the sin is dangerous. God might just say back,” no, you go to hell” and He can actually do it. You are better off to say I don’t know than to condone something that might not be okay with God. Sodomy is a sin for heterosexuals, too.

        • Becky

          You are correct, Mim – the Episcopal Church does believe that homosexuality is okay as long as it is monogamous. I had an Episcopal clergy as an employer for 9 years, and that was her opinion. She told me that as long as a couple “loves each other and are committed to each other” they should be allowed to be together. If those are the reasons gay marriages should be okay, then why would it be wrong for me to marry my son, my father, my brother, or for that matter, my sister, as long as we were monogamous in our relationship and loved each other!! I feel that a clergy person, or a trusted leader of an organization are doing their followers an injustice if they are misleading them. I am deeply saddened by the stand a lot of politicians, organizations, and yes, even churches have on allowing gay marriage. I believe most of them are taking that stand to help them politically and/or socially. The Bible says we should love everyone, but that doesn’t mean we need to love and accept their actions. I am by all means not perfect – it’s only by God’s love and grace and that my sins are forgiven and I can find peace and happiness.

    • Thomas R

      Having same-sex attractions (though I’m not exclusively SSA) I will say there is a sense among Christians, at times (and granted I’m Catholic), that simply having SSA is just terrible. That you should never speak of it even to people who don’t mind people mentioning adultery, alcoholism, or mental illness. I’ve never spoken of my SSA in public, IRL, but speaking of my anxiety medications or the time I had a manic episode feels more comfortable to mention. And I have mentioned those in life albeit not often.

      Yet there is also the other pressure or concern. That if I mention it I will be told to “Just get a boyfriend then” when I’m not interested in that. Or the idea that having SSA means love must have a sexual or romantic component. I’m not lonely without a wife or husband. (Seeing as I have both attractions) I have five siblings, nine nephews, and three nieces. I have God. Even if I was a 100% SSA I’d still have these things. Not everyone of us was made for a Hollywood fairy-tale Valentine. I knew I wasn’t well before I knew my orientation.

    • Mo

      @ Craig –

      Your table-turning tactic doesn’t really work, simply because there is a clear right and wrong here. Homosexuality is a sign that there is something broken inside a person. (The same is true for any and all of our sins!)

      The problem is that when it comes to homosexuality, people who struggle with it are relentlessly encouraged to give in to it, instead of fighting it as Tim seems to be doing.

      The most disturbing thing in this article was that people in the church were encouraging Tim to give in to his homosexual desires! I am so glad that he has now found people to help him in his struggle!

  • Jesus Morales

    Thanks for posting this. Christians all over need to see and understand this. We are not “loving” when we condone sin, we are actually the exact opposite of “loving”. At least, loving by God’s standards.

    • kenneth

      Jesus,
      You are so right. God’s standard for love (Agape Love) is the only standard that matters. When the church encourages a Christian to give in to sin, that is the opposite of Agape love. It seems more like satan at work in the church sowing havoc, trying to substitute ‘political correctness’ for love.

  • http://ourgirlsclub.blogspot.com/ Ginny Bain Allen

    How very encouraging and uplifting your bold, inspiring, truthful piece is, Mr. Teetsel! Thank you for sharing! Blessings!

  • Milissa

    I was unaware the Christianity was a buffet that allowed one to pick and choose the teachings of God and Christ that appealed to the individual and forgo the others. What a ridiculous piece of pro homosexual propaganda.

    • shevrae

      You should trying reading articles before you comment.

    • Eric Teetsel

      Milissa – I’m afraid you must have misread my post. Would you read it again and tell which parts you think are “pro homosexual.” If you’re right, I missed my mark by a WIDE margin as I am most definitely not pro homosexual.

      • NE1

        wow. wouldn’t want anyone to think you had a bit of compassion there. I figured that was out the window by the second paragraph, so don’t worry.

        • Gary

          You need to figure out what “compassion” is. As Christians, we are obligated to tell the truth. Compassion is helping people find that truth. If you tell people that you understand their “strong feelings” for the same sex and that it is ok, then what is next? Pedopholia – they have “strong feelings” for children?? Poligamy – they have “strong feelings” for many different people?? Sex with animals? There is a huge difference between compassion and condoning sin.

      • Chris

        It seems to me that Tim is picking and chosing whom he choses to serve each day. Hmmm….will I serve God or will I serve Satan today? Shall I watch gay porn or shall I follow the teachings of Jesus?

        • Jessie

          No. He’s saying, like I and many other christians (homosexual or heterosexual), including Paul the apostle [Ref: Romans 7:19], that it is difficult not to sin – actually, it’s impossible for any of us to avoid sin completely; that’s why Jesus died. Tim wants to do what is right and serve God, but it is tempting to endulge in the passions of the flesh , and so he is encouraging us all to do as he does, and that is confess this temptation to our friends who can and will help us to follow Christ instead of giving in to thos temptations.

    • http://deep.mastersfamily.org BJohnM

      Yes Milissa, so why do you so-called Christians pick and choose. I’m betting right now you are wearing clothes of mixed thread (there’s a rule against that). Ever eaten shellfish (there’s a rule against that too)? Have you ever spoken in church (assuming you are a woman, there’s a rule against that)? You dine at buffet yourself…most all Christians do, so please quit pretending otherwise. We’ve chosen to ignore rules over the centuries as we learned better. We no longer keep slaves, but Jesus said slaves needed to be obedient to their masters…do you own any Milissa?

      • Duane

        Dear EJohnM,
        Jesus loves you incomprehensibly, just as He loves Tim.
        Please endulge me EJohnM, a little of your time and attention. God is eternal. God – One God has forever existed in the persons of 3 known by humans as “Father” “Son” and “Holy Spirit”, who have eternally existed together in an intimate (read “intimate” not “sexual”) relationship, one God – three Persons. So this God is relational forever and ever. He created humans to experience His love – to receive His love. But from the time we were created, we chose to go our own way – to forsake the love that created us to do things our own way to serve love of self over the love of God. But wait! It was the plan forever for “The Son” to become a human, and join with us on Earth so we could have intimate fellowship (deep deep friendship and companionship) with God in the flesh. So when we rejected Him, He still needed to come to us, but now the mission was to take us back from our self destructive, self worshipping state. That is why He came, lived a perfect life in perfect love and obedience to His “Father” and in perfect love for all humanity and for you EJohnM, so that we could join Him in eternal communion (forever fellowship, intimate love, union with Eternal God in Jesus Christ). He loves you that much. He loves you so much that He does not want you to be enslaved to alcohol, or drugs, or sex, or money. That’s want the “rules” are about most of which you mentioned have nothing to do with the “Church” but were speaking to the nation of Israel.
        Jesus loves you beyond my understanding, much less my ability to convey that love to you. I’m praying for you now, EJohnM,that you would open your heart and mind, and receive his love.
        Peace,
        Love,
        Duane

      • Duane Watts

        Dear BJohnM,
        Please endulge me a little of your time and attention, and maybe we can better understand one another. God is of course eternal. There is but one God, but God is eternally three persons, known by humans, in human language as “Father”, “Son”, and “Holy Spirit”. Father, Son and Holy Spirit have been together forever – One God. So forever, God is relational. Forever God is not self-serving, but Son loves and serves Father, Father loves and serves Son and Holy Spirit loves and serves Father and Son, etc. Serving the other is the eternal model. When God created humanity, He did so to spread that love – so that billions more might know the Love of God. But from the beginning, we rejected God’s love in order to serve ourselves, to be our own gods. But wait! before He even created us, He had already determined that the “Son” would become a man himself , to come to us, so that his creation could know God in the flesh, and be intimate friends with Him. So after we rejected Him, his mission became to come and redeem us – buy us back from the slavery into which we had sold ourselves. He loves us so much that, even though we shook a clenched fist at Him and spit in His face, He came – eternal God, became a mortal baby, who wets and poops and cries, so that He could serve His “Father” in perfect love and obedience and love His fellow humans perfectly – to do perfectly over again, what we failed to do from the beginning. He did this, and died on the cross in our place, do make us His own. He loved us that much. BJohnM, He loves you that much. The “rules” are about revealing to creation what we were created for (don’t use a Rolls Royce as a battering ram), besides, most of the rules you mention were addressed to the people of Israel, and have nothing to do with us today. Jesus is Eternal God, BJohnM, but He loves you enough to make a special trip to Earth, to die an excrutiating death, so that you could have eternal communion – intimate fellowship – with Him, and all of the people of God, forever. I’m praying for you now that God would open your heart and mind to see and to receive His love.
        Peace,
        Love,
        Duane

    • Mo

      I’m not sure what article you were reading, but it wasn’t the one I just read here.

  • Anonymous (struggler)

    Tim. I just want to thank you so much for doing that video. You will never know how much is has encouraged me. I have really been struggling lately. Everything has continued to spiral out of control. But that video was a great reminder to me that I need to keep looking to God and I really need to connect more with good people. Thank you very much for sharing.

    • http://timholland.us Tim Holland

      To steal a line from Tim Keller, I think any real, honest follower of Christ, faced with this message, knows that they were, are, or are one poor decision away from being completely broken. Know that you are NOT alone. Struggle not to fight against what you cannot control, but against the fear of being known. It is the latter that will bring wholeness. Feel free to reach out to Eric or me if you’re looking to get connected with some helpful resources.

    • (overcomer)

      thank you for your courage to reply; for some even that is a huge step. i just want to reinforce what Tim H. said “Know that you are NOT alone”. you’re truly not. there are people out there who desire to be there with you through this, to remind you of that very FACT. it transcends ‘agenda’ and lives in the simplicity of God’s Light, Love and Truth, being shared and experienced relationally… Prayrfully Yours, a friend “a friend loves at all times”

    • FancyFree4Now

      Thank you for your truthful testimony. I struggled with sexual sin myself, but in a heterosexual way. I attended a “welcoming” church during college that dismissed my behavior with the lie that God loves me no matter the choices I made; I was accountable only to my “happiness”. I created a lifestyle for myself based on what the world offered to me with the tacit approval of the church-people, who were more afraid of “confrontation” than with saving my soul. God never gave up on me, though, and as an adult, I know the freedom that comes of submitting my life to God. Periodically still, deception presents a temptation to test me…and after eighteen years, I am grateful for the power of the Holy Spirit to resist all that deception has tossed my way. Be strong in the Word; it truly is a Shield of Strength!

  • Fred

    If homosexual activity can be justified by being “born that way,” then aren’t pedophiles also justified by being “born that way?” I don’t see a difference.

    • Eric D Red

      You really can’t see the difference between rape and consensual sex?

      • Jack

        No, he means the orientation; the attraction; the predilection. We expect, as a society, for pedophiles to suppress their desires and forego the acting out of their sexual choice for a lifetime. Why? Because we consider the behavior they would otherwise engage in to be immoral. For some reason, over the course of the last 50 years, society has lost its revulsion over homosexual activities and instead embraced it as a normal, moral behavior. If that has happened in the case of homosexuality, what’s to stop the same change regarding other tendencies? When I was a kid, homosexuals were isolated, condemned, abused. The “pervert” who lived in that house down the road was to be avoided at all costs. Well, look at us now: that “perverted” person now has his own TV shows, is protected by law, those who criticize him are themselves condemned, and he can now “marry” his lover. Who’s to say that, 30, 40, 50 years from now (heck, maybe 10 years, the way things are going), we won’t come to the point where men having sex with minors will be considered a healthy child rearing method? Don’t say it couldn’t happen: we made the gay change; why not other ones?

        • scragsma

          I’d like to point out that isolating, condemning, avoiding, and abusing homosexuals is just as severely sinful as condoning homosexual behavior.

          • Anthony

            Then simply advocate for a practice of meaningful sexuality and relationships. The only reason people are truly in an uproar is because some people don’t think that it is necessary or even advocated to give into the urge to of sexual desires, whether natural or unnatural. We think that abnormal sexuality is normal but it really isn’t. It happens, yes, but it isn’t a natural process of living. Just like with bestiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, and polygamy, we have people (people mind you, not fiends or villains or monsters) whom have these sexual attractions for all sorts of reasons, and some just develope them because they cannot help it. It isn’t for condemnation’s sake that we point this out, but simple sense that just because we may have this feeling to do something doesn’t always make that action right.

    • semich

      Please continue to equate homosexuality with pedophilia. It will convince many people and do wonders for the Christian right’s agenda. I find it very revealing that the author of this sad piece took the time to respond to an accusation that this article was “pro homosexual” (whatever that means), but did not feel that comparing homosexuality to pedophilia merited any correction. Since you (and presumably the author) feel that they are the same, shouldn’t the government be rounding up gay men and lesbians and putting them in prison? As we do with pedophiles who act out on their desires?

      • The Other Fred

        @Semich

        Since you seem to be a homosexual activist, perhaps you can answer this for me:

        Why don’t homosexual activists denounce homosexual child rapists unless they are Catholic priests? Doesn’t the silence from activists play into the “homosexual = child rapist” meme instead of eliminate it?

        In wake of non-Catholic homosexuals either being convicted of child rape (Jerry Sandusky) or being accused of it (Kevin “Elmo” Clash), I think these are fair questions to ask.

      • Mo

        @ semich –

        Why are you so judgmental about pedophilia?

    • NE1

      If my comment doesn’t go through, this one shouldn’t either. This is not about pedophiles, and if you people can’t see the difference between me loving a grown man, and raping a child, then that’s your problem, not mine, and certainly not ours.

      • Fred

        I’m talking about being, “born that way.” It’s a really stupid argument. I was only speaking to that aspect of the discussion, but appartently really touched a nerve. You know I’m right. That’s why you are so raw in your responses.

        • Eric D Red

          You spoke of “homosexual activity” and equated that to pedophiles, then claim it’s being supported by “born that way”. Take out the word “activity” and you MIGHT have a point about both being born that way.

          However, don’t equate consensual sex or love with raping children. You can have all the opinions you want about whether gay love is wrong, but if it’s consensual any harm to non-participants is pretty vague at best. Rape, especially of children, we can all agree is deeply wrong.

          And I think you’ll find that most of those who denounced priests raping children also had an issue with the whole Penn State issue, and it wasn’t “homosexual activists” any more than anyone else.

          • Fred

            Again, I’m talking about the predilection toward a particular sexual appetite. If homosexuals have a sexual appetite toward the same sex because they are “born that way,” then pedophiles who have a sexual appetite toward children are also “born that way.” In this manner, I am dispelling the “born that way” myth. I never said whether “gay love” is right or wrong. I do believe that it is a choice, not a way a person is born. I’ve known severeal gay people who were not gay until they were well into adulthood and had no homosexual predilections before being grown. I also know too many people who were “into” homosexuality when they were children because they were led there by homosexual adults. They thought they were gay when they were teenagers, but chose not to be when they were adults.

          • http://timothy.green.name/ Timothy (TRiG)

            “I’m talking about the predilection toward a particular sexual appetite.”

            Ah, yes. Because this is purely a value-neutral metaphor, with no implicit judgment, and no history of having been used to disenfranchise gay people and exclude them from many jobs.

            Yeah. Keep telling yourself that.

            TRiG.

          • Gary

            It is apparent that those engaged in homosexual activity do all they can to “justify” their actions. Fred is right in what he states. Homosexuality is a choice, just like any other sexual activity. Once again, we are talking about the “slippery slope”. Once you start down that road, it seems that nothing is off limits. For an adult to have sex with a 17 year old is still considered Statuatory rape in most states, but that 17 year old knows exactly what is going on. So, who says they won’t lower the age down to 16, or 15, or 14, or . . . Where does it stop? I see many very attractive ladies where I work. But fortunately I have the character and strength from Jesus to resist approaching them for potential sexual activities with them. Why? Because sexaul promiscuity is wrong, too. It is also about having respect for others and God’s word. If one cannot even resist sexual desires then just how weak of a person are they? Sexual sin is one of the greatest sins as it leads one down a path away from God and YES, homosexuality is one of the sexual sins. You don’t have to like it or agree with it, but like gravity, it is the truth and you will suffer the consequences of not respecting it.

    • Mo

      Absolutely right.
      Sadly, the only response the pro-homosexual side will offer is that pedophilia is wrong because children can’t give consent. (As though if they could/would, that would make it okay!)

      Then they get in a huff because you’re comparing their sin to the sin of sexual attraction/acts with children. It’s quite the double standard how homosexuals can’t stand being “judged” for their behavior, but most of them have no problem judging pedophiles for theirs.

    • http://timothy.green.name/ Timothy (TRiG)

      That’s why the “born that way” “justification” is silly. Homosexual behaviour doesn’t need to be justified on the basis of how we were born: it doesn’t need to be justified at all. Why should it need justification? It hurts no one.

      *shrug*

      TRiG.

  • Steph Bishop

    Tim, friend, I sure do appreciate your wisdom. So lovely to hear your thoughts and see your face! :)

  • Pingback: My Gay Roommate | Denny Burk

  • Aaron B

    Thank you, Tim, for your transparency and willingness to share this. I am so encouraged by it! As someone who has a similar testimony, I know how liberating it is to walk in truth and to walk without the weight of sin’s shame. I also shared my testimony on video; I am posting the link here. Eric, I hope both you and Tim can watch it and be spurred on to proclaim truth and expose lies. Praise God for victory!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umugpt4Kq3A

    • Kelly

      Amen! Praise God for His truths and His unfailing love!

  • Pingback: SBTS Southern Blogs » My Gay Roommate

  • http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com Joe Jervis

    Tim is still gay. He always will be. Thanks to deluded people and their Bronze Age mythologies, Tim may go to his grave empty, alone, and still craving the loving arms of another man. Sure, Tim may be able, somehow, to abstain from sex and live a life of untouched solitude, but that won’t make him any less gay. Just because you can hold your breath doesn’t make you an “ex-breather.” We can only hope Tim escapes his torturers before they drive him to self-harm, as so often happens to gay people ensnared in such spirit-crushing brainwashing.

    • Eric Teetsel

      Joe – thanks for reading and commenting. I know you care deeply about these issues and appreciate the willingness to engage in constructive dialogue. Your comment inspired many questions, but I’ll start with just one. My experience (which includes graduate-level coursework in psychology, human development, and diversity, not to mention personal relationships) has been that for GLBTQ advocates individuality is a virtue of utmost importance. Each person’s unique sexuality is to be affirmed, hence the list of identifiers (now up to GLBTQ). So, for instance, an individual might at first identify gay, then move to bi, then perhaps choose some other descriptive phrase that best captures their conception of their sexuality. The community would respond with affirmation, lauding the “journey of personal discovery” we are all on. If that’s the case, why not affirm Tim’s own personal sexual journey? Why must Tim “always be” gay? This seems hypocritical in the broader context of virtues the GLBTQ community espouses.

      • Recovering

        Eric, the GLBT activist community often sees this route as a one way street. “Bi” today, gay tomorrow, etc. Plenty of people can leave M2M sex behind under the right circumstances and have opposite sex relations. I have seen folks who convert to Christianity drop it cold turkey. Most them will have some SSA but Grace keeps them from sin. Sex is indeed optional. On a person to person level GLTB folks usually do respect a choice for chastity. Especially the older folks who remember the pre-treatment AIDs days.

    • Sharon

      Joe Jarvis,
      Yes, Tim is gay. But he is also wholly devoted to Christ and has chosen to remain abstinent just as many heterosexual, unmarried people have. Neither Tim nor those other abstainers are empty or living in “untouched solitude”. Many, many, many people have discovered that Jesus was enough fulfillment for them. Mother Theresa comes to mind. Tim is one of several gay people I know who have made that choice. And I also know of people who were homosexual and are now happily in a heterosexual marriage. Don’t get angry or begrudge Tim or our support of his decision. Tim is striving to be authentic as a Christian . . . and for Tim, that trumps everything else. Support him.

    • Thomas R

      Why is it being gay is seen, even by gay activists, as being unusually pathetic?

      Plenty of straight people have died virgins without being untouched fortresses of solitude. Maybe being only half-gay it’s different for me, but I don’t expect to have a female lover either. Is there something about gayness that makes being single more onerous? If you can’t have sex with a man do you become unable to love him or hold him? Why?

      I’ll grant when you’re 17-21 it might almost feel that way. But eventually the body calms and the mind adjusts to some extent. Do I still desire to have sex with a man? Sure. I just value other things more. If you don’t believe in it than don’t believe in it. But some of us don’t really need or want your liberation.

    • Mo

      “Tim is still gay. He always will be.”

      And you know this how, exactly?

      ” Thanks to deluded people and their Bronze Age mythologies…”

      Deluded in what way? What Bronze Age mythology are you referring to?

      “Tim may go to his grave empty, alone, and still craving the loving arms of another man. ”

      God could bring a woman into his life, like He has for many men who once identified as homosexual and now do not. (And vice versa for female homosexuals!)

      Even if He does not, how is this any different from heterosexuals who long to be married and have a family, but have not found a spouse yet? For those singles who are followers of Christ, we too are commanded to be celibate. This standard is the same for all followers of Christ.

      “Sure, Tim may be able, somehow, to abstain from sex and live a life of untouched solitude…”

      Again, just like all single people who are followers of Christ must do.

      ” but that won’t make him any less gay. ”

      Upon what basis do you claim to have the knowledge and the right to say that about anyone?

      “We can only hope Tim escapes his torturers before they drive him to self-harm, as so often happens to gay people ensnared in such spirit-crushing brainwashing.”

      Please, spare us the drama.

      What “torturers”? What brainwashing?

      Please.

    • http://timothy.green.name/ Timothy (TRiG)

      Come on Joe.

      Christianity is an Iron Age mythology. Get it right!

      TRiG. ;)

  • NE1

    Prideful lusty and greedy. Wow. And you almost had me for a second, I wouldn’t have agreed with you, but I would have thought there wasn’t hate in this.. But no. Leaving now as disgusted as I was when I came. This is prideful, I’m a gay man, that’s all, I’m not your sinful subject.

    • Eric Teetsel

      I’m sorry if my comments left you disgusted NE1. There isn’t any hate in this and I’m disappointed that you sensed there was. My intent is merely to make clear that my own sins are on equal footing with the sin of homosexuality.

      • J. Morales

        Eric,

        It’s been my experience that no matter how loving someone is when they discuss this subject, there are always people who will call them hateful. It’s disappointing, because, you worry that it sets up a barrier to a person receiving the Truth you’re trying to impart. Unfortunately, I don’t see any other response other then to pray that God can use your words to plant a seed in that person’s heart. The only thing some people will see as “not hateful” or “not offensive” is for you to agree with them, and then you’re not speaking the Truth.

        • John Evans

          J. Morales, when you talk to someone who is happy, self-confident, and in a loving, committed relationship, and tell them that you know better than they – tell them that they are broken, and unhappy, prideful and wicked – why would they not perceive that as hate?

          • Willie

            “– why would they not perceive that as hate?” Because the way we think these days is not the way we should or even used to interact. When I was growing up we used to be able to “agree to disagree” – or to put it differently: we could hold different opinions and still be respected for holding a different opinion. But not anymore. Unfortunately, now with the “gay agenda”, when you disagree with someone they say “you hate them”. It’s certainly not a fact, but merely a way to denigrate someone and their logic, which is the devil’s ploy in matters of discussion and ways to coerce people with sound logic. Does that answer your question – “– why would they not perceive that as hate?” It’s not at all a matter of Hate, but merely a matter of disagreement, and stating the facts of Truth. These days people don’t like to see or hear the Truth brought out. Keep things muddy with half truths. But Jesus said “You will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free”. And Paul said to speak the Truth in Love – not to hide the Truth. Unfortunately the Truth often hurts, but we need to speak it in Love, not Hide it. The world either wants to hide it, or some will use it to brow beat you. How very unfortunate. Let’s always speak the Truth in Love – even if they intentionally think we hate them when we speak truth.

          • Erick

            John,
            The truth is that we are all broken and born into a sin nature, with no regard to whatever sexual orientation label is placed on us. Without a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ I am completely broken, unhappy, prideful, and wicked. Telling you that you are the same is not at all hateful. Sexual sin and a multitude of other sins abounds everywhere in this world. Jesus standard for adultry is absolute. If I look on a woman with lust I’ve committed adultry in my heart. Although redeemed, because I trust what Jesus Christ did on the cross to cover my sin, I still live in a sinful world and have sinful flesh. But if I submit to the LORDship of Jesus Christ daily I am no longer broken and unhappy becuase of my former sin nature and what residue remains of it . . . I am complete, full of joy, humble at how much I owe Jesus, and I am Holy, set aside and absolutely pure. God’s design for human sexuality is in the bounds of marriage between one man and a woman. Within those healthy bounds sex is good. Anything outside of those bounds brings with it a self loathing misery that slowly brings death. I’m glad that I have chosen to trust Christ with my entire life and I can only tell you that the abundant life and joy that comes with that surrender is fantastic! I’m sure you will scoff, but I want to let you know that I am lifting you up in prayer. I also apologize for many who are hypocritical and who do spew hatred. I’m sorry for any hurt that has caused you. To many supposed Christians are too quick to scream at homosexuals telling them they are hell bound and far too few of us reach out in compassion and love. But love demands that we tell the truth. We [believers in Christ] are called to love sinners, but God still cannot stand sin . . . both your sin and mine. Any sin of yours is no worse than any of my own . . . all sin separates us from a God who loves us and wants us to be close to Him. God loves you. We come to Jesus as the sinners that we are. We leave that encounter with the living God full of new life! I hope some day you may also have that same life.
            Erick
            Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
            Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

      • Mo

        Let’s not bend over backwards to apologize to people when nothing has been said or done that requires it!

        For people like Joe, there is only one response that is acceptable, and that is 100% acceptance of homosexuality. ANYTHING less than that, no matter how gently worded or lovingly communicated equals “hate” in their view.

        It’s remarkable how people like Joe will not tolerate any difference of opinion on this matter, and yet they continue to demand – not request, but DEMAND – tolerance!

        • Mo

          (I’m sorry, I think my last comment was in reference to the commenter called NE1.)

  • DrJones

    I don’t truly believe that I will change anyone’s opinions by commenting here, but at least it gives me a small modicum of satisfaction to bring a voice to counteract hate, intolerance, and blasphemy. It is so tiresome to encounter people who claim to be Christians, yet spew their hate, and are constantly preaching to everyone about how they know what God teaches, what God desires, there is one Truth, and that bashing others is justified by their faith, and that it is “love.” I am a Christian, and yes, while I am a sinner, I am nothing like you, and you all repulse me, with your self-indignant nature. That you think you know the mind of God, and turn what you think is God’s teaching on others to justify your own intolerance, is just abhorrent. I pray for you all constantly, it is all I can do. Yes, many “struggle” with homosexuality, but that struggle is between them and God. Maybe if there were fewer of you in society, they would not be racked with guilt. Eric, you speak of “the inclination of homosexuals towards promiscuity,” and thereby propagate the stereotype that homosexuals are promiscuous. They are no more or less than anyone else; have you talked to the average heterosexual 21-year-old man? You talk about “voices in the Church encouraging him to embrace his homosexuality” and how that made his journey more “difficult.” Perhaps from a psychological standpoint “embracing” his homosexuality would be the least painful for him, but again, his “journey” was between God and him and not for anyone else to question or interfere with. Eric, you equate your entire arguments “against” homosexuality (as you say you are definitely not “pro”-homosexuality) to it being sin. Perhaps you should study the Bible with more than a simplistic understanding. As someone else noted, there are a lot of “sins” listed in the Bible, everything from not eating shellfish, to women must not be around others with their period, to women keeping their heads covered, etc etc. How sin is defined in the church at large conjures up many varying opinions. If you look at the Greek text (Septuagint) the closest English translation is that sin is defined as “missing the mark,” or not fully doing what God intends for us. It sounds like you are struggling with a very specific sin – that you are hateful to others. God does love us no matter what, and yes, we will all repeatedly “miss the mark,” and this doesn’t give us a free pass to behave however we want–we should all strive for Godliness, despite a losing battle, but because of God’s grace, we are freed from sin. You talk about the Church’s role to speak the “Truth,” no matter the prevailing winds in society, and that this is “Love.” Again, you are speaking flawed arguments – man cannot know the mind of God, he is so much beyond us. Your version of Truth doesn’t mean that is the ONLY truth – that argument has been used throughout history to wage war and justify nearly everything. The Truth I subscribe to is that God is Love, and just because I am a Christian and believe a certain way, that I should beat everyone else into believing that way, as it is the one “Truth.” My truth says I should be loving to everyone around me, regardless of their place in life. That is why, ultimately, even though the people who read and comment here, you conservative Christians, disgust me, I still love you. To those who say Tim had a “rocky” path to righteousness, and is being tempted by Satan, how dare you say you know better, that only you know the true path! Remove the plank from your eye before you tell your neighbor to remove the speck in his eye. (Jesus said that.) To those that say we shouldn’t “condone” sin, that isn’t loving by Jesus’ standards – how dare you say you know what sin is, that you know Jesus’ standards! How presumptuous, and self-righteous! Look at your own life before you judge someone else’s. As far as the pedophilia, that being equated with homosexuality just never seems to go away, but it is night and day – pedophiles are adults who prey on children, both in homosexual and heterosexual manners, so it is no different than saying heterosexual behavior (born that way) is pedophilia. Again, I pray for all of you who think you share “Truth” (your version). I pray for homosexuals who keep getting brainwashed by Christians who want to rid them of the very essence of who they are. It is not surprising that the modern church is dying out (the youth today are not staying in the church), as when it keeps preaching hate and intolerance, young people today don’t want to associate with that. It is sad to me that my agnostic and atheist coworkers don’t want to have anything to do with Christianity, and when they say they believe they are more “moral” than most Christians, I can’t say I disagree with them. The vast majority of Christians today are judgmental, close-minded individuals, and the vast majority of atheist and agnostic people I have encountered treat their fellow humans far better than most Christians. It is sad that modern Christians don’t seem to care that God calls us to share his love, and by forming meaningful friendships, and showing our brothers and sisters our lives in Christ, then we can witness to them, and then God-willing, they may become followers too. Those commenting here seem far too wrapped up in hate and judgment than in actually wanting to evangelize. Sure, you probably all say that you can’t compromise your version of the Truth, and non-believers out there need to know “the wages of sin is death” and all sorts of other statements you make to justify your behavior, but in the end, you aren’t advancing God’s kingdom if you aren’t sharing his love, and I believe that this is disappointing to God (although again, God is far beyond me, so this is just my belief). I feel blessed to worship in a Church that is accepting of ALL – a church that exemplifies love for all God’s children. I just wish that the majority of churches out there were that way. I do take solace in that organizations like The Manhattan Declaration and what it stands for will eventually die out, just like churches that subscribe to hate.

    • Eric Teetsel

      Hi Dr. Jones – It may be that we don’t share much common ground when it comes to this topic, but I appreciate you reading and voicing your thoughts. It seems to me the major point of divergence between us is that idea of knowing God’s truth. My faith teaches that all truth is God’s – wherever it is found – and that truth is knowable. (Perhaps not known, not yet anyway, but knowable.) The Bible is God’s revealed truth. It doesn’t contain every answer, but there’s enough there to keep us human beings busy for a long, long time…

      • DrJones

        What a vague response. I was honestly hoping for something more out of you. Yes, “truth” can be derived from God’s Word, but the problem is when you have humankind, who are affected by sin (remember, “missing the mark,”), thinking they can, without question, understand that truth. God is beyond us humans, so it is ridiculous to think that when we read His word, that we can understand all of what He conveys. It is frustrating when Christians read the Bible with “blinders” on, and by their narrow interpretation, only see God’s Word according to a very narrow view, and then go apply that to others.

        • Gary

          DrJones, If you believe the Bible is God’s word, then try reading it with an open mind. Try praying for God to guide you as you read it. Then read Leviticus and Romans. God’s word is very clear there and you can only justify homosexuality if you remove homosexuality from the context because you don’t like that it condemns it. You also must realize that the majority of us Christians love the people, it is their sinful acts that we condemn. Our real goal is to help them understand God’s word and then make the wise decision. In the end, we all will answer to God and not man. Just remember one very important thing. You can’t fool God. He knows the truth and He knows our hearts.

          • DrJones

            Try reading the Bible with an open mind? Try praying? Why don’t you stop judging, and start loving?! I have read the Bible, I read it daily. I went to a Christian liberal arts college and was a religion minor. Why don’t you try reading the Bible with a more elegant understanding–try reading it from a cultural and historical perspective, not just an “as is” reading?! So you say God’s word is very clear (I’m assuming in the sense of coming out against homosexuality), yet if that is the case, then we must take ALL of the Leviticus laws and apply them to today — but you don’t see people doing that, do you? Also, Paul was very hung up on sexuality in his writings – he basically said people should not even get married – so to take what he said (e.g. in Romans) at face value is circumspect. I didn’t say anything about “removing” homosexuality from the context, and I don’t believe that it is “condemned,” so wrong on both points. You say “the majority of us Christians love the people, but not the sinful acts.” This argument is old and of no merit. That kind of talk has been used to judge and ostracize people for centuries. I guess you didn’t read what I was saying about sin – that it is a more global “missing the mark.” You say the goal is to “help them understand God’s Word and then make the wise decision” – so you want them to understand God’s Word as YOU see it — but the Bible can be interpreted from many different perspectives, and just because someone does not see it as you see it does not mean that yours is the only way to see it. You just want them to “make the wise decision” – e.g. say they will be abstinent or some nonsense like that. Yes, in the end we do answer to God, which gives me great solace, knowing that I don’t have to portend with those who only read the Bible at the surface-level. I never said anything about “fooling” God, and of course he knows our hearts. I encourage you to keep questioning and keep searching — don’t just accept at face value all the weak arguments that have been stomped into you.

        • Celso

          Dr. Jones, Christ loves all people but He condemns the sins. As Christians we have to love all people but as followers of Christ we also have to condemn sins. All people, you and me, are sinners but Christ taught us to hate sins. There is a big difference when people starts flaunting their sins as normal and circumvents what Jesus taught to the Apostles and His Church and justify these as acceptable to God. There is really no profound statements that can circumvent Jesus Christ teachings. If we have faith in God, there is no explanation needed because we will readily accept and submit to His teachings. People who make profound statements but circumvents Christ teachings is making themselves look as if they know better than Jesus Christ Himself. Christ Teachings is our standard norm All actions that contradicts His teachings can easily be recognized.

        • http://communicatorsinaction.com April

          Dr. Jones,
          Who do you say God is? I know after studying the Bible for many years that mankind would never have contrived a God such as the Bible reveals. His offering of Himself in the Word is truly inspired of Him not us. He is God who is holy, perfect, loving, sovereign, merciful, just, eternal, yet accessible through Jesus Christ. In His perfection He offers the solution to the problem of the darkness of the human soul. Jesus is the ONLY of religious figures who doesn’t mince words of our brokenness and our need for redemption. All others will tell you to just be good enough or work hard enough. But our standard is Christ who was sinless and came to bring peace between God and man. And as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, if these things are not true then my faith is futile. I blew away the possibility of “good enough” when I took my first breath because I am born of Adam. But as I was born again in Christ having accepted His sacrifice for me, I am a new creation and look forward to the day when I will spend eternity in the Presence of my Savior. The church is filled with all of us flawed people who are still here in the refining stage. I will spend the rest of my life here acknowledging my sin nature to my Lord, but He continues to refine me. I’m so glad I’m not the person I was 10 years ago. What causes you to think that God would create us and in the process not give us knowledge of Himself? Just as you may look down on a wayward parent who deserts a child, we too would reject a wayward god who creates and departs without giving knowledge of Himself, or knowledge of purpose in life as well as the beauty and complexity found in Him. There are many warnings in the Bible for living because there is true, real suffering outside God’s will. God prefers to spare us that suffering, but we choose poorly. Christians are called to love, and just like a parent who warns a child to stay out of the street, we have the Word of God to guide and direct. If we do not warn with the Word of God, then we are unloving. We have no reason to think that God’s Word is not Truth. It has been tested through the centuries and found to be greater than we could ever expect. It is a book like no other in the course of humanity, filled with prophesy (fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled), history, poetry, biography but most of all love. As Jesus stated in Matthew 7:7-8 we are encouraged to ask, seek and knock. He is not a God afraid of questions or the answers. After all He wrote them.

        • TNway

          Dr. Jones,
          Is your argument that because we are all sinful, that none of us have the ability to know God’s truth and therefore we are unable to know what constitutes sin?

        • D

          Dr. Jones, It is interesting to read your post and find that you refuse believe that Erik and all these people posting are not hateful, even though they explain why they aren’t. But then you turn around and insist that you Love all these people even though you had just pointed out how they disgust you and they are repulsive. If you expect your readers to believe you then you should try believing others when they explain where they are coming from… A question arises from your initial post. Since your church accepts ALL, does it consider those who engage in beastiality, pedophiles, and adulterers to simply be doing what is natural and that it is, therefore, acceptable? Do you even know if those things are wrong? On another note, just because we don’t understand everything about God’s Word, or what God thinks, doesn’t mean that we don’t know quite a lot or that we should act like we don’t know the things we actually do know. In logic we call your reasoning a “hasty generalization,” but you should know that since you’re a Dr.

    • Lisa

      There is a difference between judging an act and judging a person. Eric supports his friend and loves him unconditionally. He does not once judge him, which is more than I can say of your comment. It is so ironic that those who are the most intolerant and judgmental are the ones accusing others of being that way. If I get this straight, we cannot judge homosexuality as right or wrong, but you can judge the Catholic Church as wrong. Hmmm….interesting.

      • Cathy

        Lisa, your comments are spot on. There was no hatred in Eric’s article. He obviously loves his friend and thus wants him to get to heaven as much as God does! God bless Tim for choosing to carry his cross and live God’s way instead of the world’s way.

    • ME

      Dr. Jones’ complains about hatred, but doesn’t offer any real evidence of it beyond fundamental disagreements about homosexuality (including a few inaccuracies – studies indicate that male homosexual partners are in fact on average more promiscuous than their heterosexual counterparts – females, not so much). It seems to me that his comments espouse a very real hatred and a fair bit of judgmentalism, by insisting that Eric and others of us who hold to a Biblical view of homosexuality (one Dr. Jones offers no actual refutation of, beyond vagaries about diet – addressed in the NT by Peter among others, submissiveness – the passage on head covering is about more than just that – ironic from someone who insists on such a liberal interpretation of Scripture – and so on) must somehow be hateful, despite the clear feelings of love they espouse for Tim as a human being and a brother in Christ.

      More so, observe the paternalistic attitude that Dr. Jones has of Tim himself, a man who has struggled with his sinful desires in a very real and moving way, and who has made his decision to live as he feels he ought to both prayerfully and thoughtfully. Dr. Jones insists Tim can’t possibly be anything other than a pawn of “homophobic” Christians, denying his own independence and autonomy. I suspect Tim doesn’t feel like a pawn in the least. Dr. Jones however insists that it is Tim’s sexuality that should define him and primarily inform his choices. How is this respectful of Tim? How is this loving?

      Regretfully, I find little but hate in Dr. Jones’ comments. Certainly not a clearly defined and compelling reason, given that he offers little in the way of rational argumentation or logical constructs. There is far more spewed ad hominem, begging the question, and a very easy generalization of those he disagrees with.

      Certainly, there are those who hate homosexual people and who use Scripture as their own hammer to attack them in ways that are cruel and unjust. But Dr. Jones chose to vent (for little else it seems than his satisfaction) against persons who have demonstrated their love and friendship to a man who is by his own words struggling with homosexuality. They offered only the convictions of their beliefs and the promise of friendship, not invective, disdain, or condescension.

      It is an example the doctor, and the rest of us would do well to learn from.

      • Shawn

        Well said Lisa, Cathy and ME- cogent remarks. Thanks, Eric and Tim.

    • Robert H.

      The Bible says ” by their fruits you shall know them ” . We can know the righteous from the unrighteous by the things they do, by the Truth of God’s Word. The ONLY Righteousness we have as Christians , is the righteous of Christ, because none of us has any righteousness of our own ! And without Christ’s Righteousness, no man can be saved from God’s wrath, which will come upon the ungodly at the time appointed. Jesus said “No man can come to the Father , except through Me ” !

    • Randy

      Hello Dr….

      I will admit that I didn’t read the entire discourse, but my skim showed more that YOU pray instead of listening, possibly not actually a two way communication with God. Please consider it.

      And as far as the “plank” and the attack of narrow-mindedness, from where have you learned to identify such? From the same perspective, from the opposite, or from where?

      Perhaps I will take the time to read more and hopefully understand how to help you.

    • Mo

      @ DrJones –

      “I don’t truly believe that I will change anyone’s opinions by commenting here, but at least it gives me a small modicum of satisfaction to bring a voice to counteract hate, intolerance, and blasphemy. ”

      What hate, intolerance and blasphemy are you referring to? Oh, you mean standing with Scripture when it says homosexuality is a sin?

      How is that hate? How is standing with Scripture blasphemy?

      “It is so tiresome to encounter people who claim to be Christians, yet spew their hate, and are constantly preaching to everyone about how they know what God teaches, what God desires, there is one Truth, and that bashing others is justified by their faith, and that it is “love.””

      It’s so tiresome to encounter people who claim to be Christians yet ignore and toss aside the teachings in the book they claim to follow, which book is called the Bible.

      ” I am a Christian, and yes, while I am a sinner, I am nothing like you, and you all repulse me, with your self-indignant nature. ”

      But you are a model of love and tolerance, right?

      Tell me, what sort of “Christian” is is that condemns the teachings of Scripture when it comes to homosexuality and condemns other Christians when they stand with those Scriptural teachings? Does that make sense to you? Because it doesn’t to me.

      Care to explain it to me?

  • William Reed

    You either struggle with homosexuality or you struggle with hetrosexuality, but it is always a struggle.

    • Susan

      Amen, William! Til kingdom come and His will be done on earth as ’tis in Heaven, and we can all embrace whoever with the total absence of lust, manipulation, control, self-serving and every other complication. Maranatha, Lord Jesus!

    • Recovering

      Great line!!! Some of us struggle with both!! No sex act will replace the Holy Spirit in our search for meaning.

    • Mo

      Wow, that is spot-on! We are all broken in one way or another.

  • http://dearhanna.com Hanna Easley

    Eric- GREAT piece. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and Tim’s story.

  • SK

    I have come to realize, as an earlier post alluded to, that most, if not all people struggle with sins/temptations that start in the mind if they are really and truly honest. I have found in my own life that I have the potential to act out every sin mentioned in the comments. I choose not to, but that doesn’t mean the temptation to do so doesn’t exist. I find that the enemy looks for “the weakness of the day” as it were, and attempts to exploit them. Praise be to God for how He brings truth to light, gives us a point of reference and a calling to become more than we are on our own.

    I also agree with Tim about how freeing and crucial confession is. It doesn’t end the battle, but it does strengthen one’s ability to fight it.

  • Greg

    Eric – yours was a valiant attempt to present another example of our common struggle with being masters of our own destiny. If there is a God – if God is interested in human kind – if God has revealed real Truth, then it behooves us to set aside our preconceptions and discover God’s truth. In my journey I have found only one written record that claims to hold God’s truth and rings true even with all of its oddities. I would encourage all that have commented on Eric’s message to be serious Truth searchers… If absolute Truth exists (not something we decide based on our own desires) then we would be fools not to embrace it and the one from whom it originates.

  • SK

    I also don’t find the argument that people are or aren’t born with homosexuality to be all that productive as it doesn’t affect what the Bible says in its regard. One may be born with the inclination to lie, but God still calls them not to act on it.

    • Susan

      Thanks, SK, for cutting to the chase!

  • Chris

    Tim either your with God or your against Him. It’s your choice!

  • Joe

    Thank you for this post. How true it is and what a great example you and Tim are to the followers of Christ! :)

  • Momof5

    I love Tim for what he is and who he is becoming. He is in the Savior’s hands. This is an eternal journey we are on. This life is only the 2nd act! Who knows what our Heavenly Father has in store for Tim in the next act because of his faithfulness! Eye hath not seen nor ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for the righteous. It’s going to be great! Hang in there, Tim! Keep fighting the good fight and enduring to the end as we all must do. Keep the commandments, in this there is safety and peace.
    Here is a link some of you might find of worth. The LDS community is making an effort to be clear about same-sex attraction and educate us about how Christ would want us to be regarding this issue. Here is a link for those that want to check it out! http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-website-same-sex-attraction
    I appreciate what the Manhattan Project stands for and is doing to stand up for truth and righteousness. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I applaud you and wish you the best! Thanks for all you do!

  • Loren

    When I introduce myself to someone, I don’t say, “Hi, I’m Loren, the hererosexual”. The fundamental problem with the entire discussion is identity. We need to find our identity in Christ NOT in our sexuality.

    • Mo

      Absolutely right. This is something no one ever seems to address.

      Homosexuals (and the rest of the alphabet crowd) are the only people I know who constantly define themselves by their sexual desires and behavior.

      I’m still waiting for my Straight Pride parade!

      • http://timothy.green.name/ Timothy (TRiG)

        I suggest you stop waiting for your Straight Pride Parade, get up off your arse, and start organising one. You may want helpers, of course. You couldn’t manage such an undertaking on your own. You’ll want to reach out to a group who can help you put on a display reminding people of your privilege, of how good you have it. A group who know how to rub minority groups’ noses in the fact that they’re second-class citizens.

        Might I suggest the KKK?

        TRiG.

  • Alfredo Tellez

    Tim, what a tremendous testimony about the right lens to use when viewing homosexuality, and just as importantly, about the beauty of Confession and the liberating grace it brings to all of life’s struggles. As you say, the struggles don’t necessarily go away, but we are called to be faithful and persevere. Thanks for sharing your story.

  • Dee

    Dr. Jones – Sounds like that the only “truth” to you is what you have decided is truth. You are exactly what you are comdemning. You need Jesus, man, plain and simple.

    • Les

      Dee,
      The fundamental problem with the “truth” according to Dr. Jones is found in the 3rd sentence from the bottom of his lengthy discourse. He is grateful to worship in a church that “exemplifies love for all of God’s children”. This is the underlying error in his theology – we are NOT all God’s children.

      Yes, Dr. Jones that is also a truth Jesus taught. In fact, some of the religious teachers of His day claimed their father was Abraham. Jesus corrected them by insisting they were children “of your father the devil” (John 8:44). It is only the unbalanced teachers of “God is love”, absent the equally true teaching that “God is holy” who subscribe to the idea we are all God’s children or universalism.

      After all, if we are all God’s children our loving Heavenly Father would never allow any of us to reside in hell for eternity. The threat of divine judgment is merely a scare tactic of His printed in the Bible to cause all of His children to straighten out and fly right.

      The Bible DOES teach we are all God’s “offspring” (Acts 17:29), because He is indeed are Creator, but to be His child requires a relationship. Only “as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become CHILDREN OF GOD…” (John 1:12).

      I am not saying homosexual sin is different than heterosexual sin, etc. I am only trying to shed light on why those of us (like Eric) who attempt to speak the truth in love only “disgust” Dr. Jones.

  • Karen Lockwood

    Thank you, Tim, for sharing. Your video spoke to me, and it was very encouraging. I can only speak for myself, but I think anyone who has or is struggling with guilt and shame in any area of weakness or brokenness and wants to confess and follow Christ and the Truth of his Word will be blessed and inspired by it. Thank you for sharing honestly and walking in the light. You have helped me more than you can ever imagine. :)

  • Susan

    Melissa,
    I would gently remind you not to judge so harshly lest you be so judged. We are to speak the truth in love which is what Eric is espousing. Just as some Christians are allowing homosexuals to become comfortable with their sin, other Christians are being so judgmental and vile towards homosexuals that they are pushing them from hearing the truth – why would they come to a church that condemned them in such an unloving way? The only people Jesus judged that way were the religious Pharisees – we all need to take a good long look at ourselves in the mirror and take stock of the way we’re doing business, and not just on the homosexual issue. Let’s start with taking the log out of our own eyes and take better care of our heterosexual marriages and the children they produce. Not to say that we shouldn’t be defending biblical truth but how we do it matters Melissa.

    • Thnklv

      Wonderful post Melissa!

  • Richard

    This is a absolutely wonderful video. Hats off to you Eric!!!

  • Thnklv

    This discussion is valuable and courageous.
    The lie about mankind wants to have a life it wants to defend its right to be. Just like the stages of any addiction…denial exists. The way our misconceptions remain active is if they are allowed to go unquestioned..to “hide”. For a time, the misconceptions may look like they are winning. Once the fight against those holding opposing views stops…there will be no distraction for the lie to hide in. Then, those holding misconceptions about their identities will be left alone with the inside job. They will find that the ache, the insecurities, the longings, the difficult feelings are still there not because of societal pressures or misunderstandings, but because they are seeking satisfaction and love in the wrong place. In those countries where homosexuality is openly “accepted” there continues to be great turmoil within the individuals.
    Recall that Jesus referred to devil, satan, evil, error…as a Liar and father of the lie. So, the Liar whispers to each of us in a form or way that might be the most convincing …as our own thinking about ourselves and others. The lie comes in the disguise of our own thoughts.
    Good to know that with the deception there is ultimately, a built in self-destruction, too.
    The most potent thing we can do to minimize and eliminate the lie…is to live the Truth…the Christ. Love so correctly our fellow man that they see Godly qualities in us and in themselves….we must in our own thoughts of our fellow man rejoice in their whole ness and see them as God does. they must feel safe and so loved that it busts the myth of rejection, distance, difference, sensuality, immaturity, wounding of all sorts. Homosexuality is a symptom of lack of the right kind of love…prayed upon by others who feel the same lack.
    Homosexuality and other more accepted misconceptions of the self…like born with a temper…born impatient, born sensual, born with addiction ..born to be unfaithful….each one must be challenged with the Truth that we are indeed made in image and likeness of God…He is our Parent thus, we inherit dominion and freedom from carnal lies.
    Remember, “line upon line, precept upon precept.” So, within each of us is a call to take every thought and action and line it up with God. This is powerful enough to change a world of misconceptions…by working on our own one thought at a time…one act at a time. Go out and Love your brethren so well that the lie about him falls away. He who loves longest, wins.

  • David

    What a joy to read the opinions posted. Thanks to all.
    Historically, in my natural self, I usually want to validate my faith by getting others to agree with my understanding. Lately, I have been enjoying much more satisfying results in my life when I prayerfully ask God to reveal Himself to me and help me to apply that understanding to my behavior. Prayerfully searching God’s Word recorded in the Bible continually reveals more and more areas in my life where I can work on my own behavior modification to come in line with what God is revealing to me. The results have been so much more satisfying than previous results that I find it exciting to share the good news of what God has done for me with others.
    Thanks again for the honest and civil discussions. I pray God blesses you all according to His will.

  • Dea.Raymond Johns

    To God be the glory.

  • Forgiven&NotCondemned

    Dear Lord Jesus,
    You have come so far for us. While we are tempted, You also were tempted and in pain. God ministered to You, and that was enough. We are also like that, and You know us intimately. You don’t promise an easy road, as a Christian, but You do promise You WILL change us, and make us more like You. We need You. We need to trust only You. Only then, will You deliver into our lives, ways for us to avoid sin, such as homosexuality, hatred, fornication, lies, selfishness, adultery, murder, anger, and the many, many sins there are that seperate us from Your desire to make us more like You. You desire that we glorify You, and we should desire that too. God, You do not promise the road will be easy, or conform with society. But You do promise that everlasting peace inside that ONLY You can give. Forgive all of us when we bear hatred, and save us from ourselves and Satan’s temptations cloaked in the world’s acceptability. Some of us have committed many, many sins and have been very broken in the past. So we know the cost, and still deal with the pain of our choices – God gives us that freedom to choose because He loves us so very much. It is up to us to speak out so that others can see the complete forgiveness of living by God’s Holy Word, which says exactly what God wants it to say. God reveals this to us, as Jesus said to Peter when Peter responded that He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God – “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you.” That is how God speaks to us through His Holy word. It’s OK to be convicted by that word and to struggle with it. We are supposed to be, and also will find comfort there with repentence. That is how God makes us clean, by repentence when we are convicted. He also provides others to share the burden, just as Tim has found. I pray for all of us to continue in that Word daily as our only bread!

  • DrRoosevelt

    As a Christian of 38 years, a university professor and church ministry leader for 15 years, I have read with great interest Dr. Jones’ article and the ensuing response. Regardless of personal feelings, experience, or what preachers proclaim, Christians quote the Bible to support their beliefs. Fundamentalist Christians believe in a literal Bible, while moderates and liberals take a more broad and varied perspective. If we quote Leviticus and other scriptural passages from the Hebrew Bible (the so-called “Old Testament” in Protestant circles) we absolutely must approach these passages with an historic/cultural perspective through the eyes of the Jewish women and men who wrote these passages. Christ himself was a Jew, who worshiped in synagogue and taught in the Temple. H Historically the Bible has been used by Christians to torture and massacre hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Jews in the Crusades (John 14:6), tens of thousands of Jews and non-Catholic Christians in the Inquisition and Reformation periods, and to promote rampant anti-Semitism under the guise of “Deicide” or “Christ-killing” to justify prejudice and hatred. Never mind the Biblical fact that it was the Romans who nailed the Lord to the cross.. Biblical passages have been used to support polygamy (1 Kings 11:1-43), to promote slavery (Col. 3:22 and Eph. 6:5), the subjugation of women (Col. 3:18 and Eph. 5:22), and the rejection of mixed marriages (Dan. 2:43 and Deut. 7:3-4). These were socio-cultural realities of their day, but obviously today we reject slavery, women today have (or should have) equal rights, and mixed marriages are legitimate everywhere. However only 40 years ago God-fearing Christians were being told by their priests and preachers that mixed-marriage was an abomination, they had scripture to prove it, and people lashed out aggressively against individuals and organizations which felt it was time to move forward on that issue. It was the same with women’s right to vote – it wasn’t until 1920 that all American women gained this right with the passage of the 19th Amendment. Until that time, thousands of Christians fought hard (ostensibly with Biblical support) against this right, and felt that the Truth and Right of Men to lead alone was threatened. (Additionally, how many women have their heads covered and remain silent in church, as it states in I Cor. 14:34 and 2 Tim. 2:12? The Quakers and Brethren may be among the few denominations adhering to this today. Does this mean all other denominations are wrong?)
    In studying the Hebrew Bible with Conservative Rabbinical scholars (university and Library of Congress) they emphasize “conditions of the age” and “oral tradition”… the Creation story in Genesis, for example, was an account written down after generations of oral tradition. All cultures have their creation stories, and the Jewish tradition (as one of the first monotheistic traditions) is no different – the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve are “True Myth”. It does not matter how many days (or indeed millenia) it took to create the earth – what does matter is God’s Divine hand in the Creative Process. Many restrictive laws were determined necessary for the early tribes to thrive – remember, there was no refrigeration nor vaccinations – they were still in “survival mode”:
    pork forbidden (Lev. 11:8), no tattoos (Lev. 19:28), shellfish and 28 other animals banned (Lev. 11:10), no mixed/blended fabrics (Lev. 19:19), and of course no round haircuts or shaving of the beard (Lev. 19:27). 1 Tim. 2:9 states unequivocally no wearing of gold, you are not permitted to ‘pull out’ while having intercourse (Gen. 38:9 – 10), a man without penis or testicles may never join God’s assembly (Deut. 23:1), and the one some Roman Catholics still wrestle with NO DIVORCE (Mark 10:9 – 12).
    This leads to our current socio-cultural concern today, homosexuality. Interesting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has plenty to say about many controversial topics in the Gospels, but never mentions a words about homosexuality directly. The famous passage (Lev. 18:22 “Man is not to lie with man as he does woman”) has been interpreted by many Rabbis as a social necessity of the age – they needed to have children for the tribe to continue. Without children, their existence would come to an end – it had nothing to do with moral questions of same-gender relations. It is interesting to me, and many other moderate Christians, that fundamentalists feel comfortable ignoring huge portions of the Bible in Leviticus which ban as abominations a multitude of crimes and sins they commit today, but feel that “man is not to lie with man” is somehow intrinsically more essential than the others. Also of concern to many millions of moderate American Christians, are how some Fundamentalists feel they are justified in killing doctors to save fetuses, or to permit the death of a mother to save a fetus, or that some rapes are “legitimate”. That they would save a fetus, yet murder thousands on Death Row – unsavory types, to be sure, but a medieval action nonetheless – is hypocrisy. To me Fundamentalism is a culture of Death, despite the “Right to Life” slogans.
    Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible or the Christian New Testament do any passages address committed, loving, sexual, respectful same-gender relationships, on either side of the issue. The scriptures order us to populate, to be hospitable (Sodom’s theme), to reject prostitution, infidelity, adultery, fornication, or anything which HURTS other people and relationships. The marriage of a man to a man does not hurt anyone, anymore than mixed marriage hurt society 40 years ago, Civil Rights corrupted civilization 50 years ago, or Women’s Suffrage destroyed our ‘moral fabric’ 90 years ago. A component of God’s TRUTH must be the GROWTH of culture, the development of society with all rights secured, equal access, the right to worship freely (or not), and the right to fully love another human being. The Deist-Humanist Founding Father Thomas Jefferson fought for these rights – ironically through our relatively short history, many Conservative Christians have wrestled against these very rights at each step of the journey, quoting the Bible as their beacon of Truth in subjugating other citizens, and the assumed conservative viewpoint of these same founding fathers.
    In the end, God wins – for God is much more than one book, one person, one church, one state, one nation. If one believes in literal translation, then one can’t ignore entire passages to accept one verse. If one believes in Life, then this must be Life for ALL. If one chooses to view Hebraic Books as their scripture, then they must take time to learn about the history, people, and societies of the age, through Rabbinic teachings, from the ones who wrote these books. If one accepts they are a citizen of God’s family, then they must accept there will be other colors, other nuances, other gifts from a wide range of diverse believers in that family. It is blasphemous to think one denomination or one church has all the scoop – God is Love, God is Truth, God is Divine, and much bigger than any one sinful church or mortal human being can comprehend.
    Lesbian and Gay people (of all faiths, agnostics, and atheists) have served as leaders of our nation throughout its history in politics, government, the military (remember Alexander the Great, historically one of the greatest military commanders? Yes, he was Gay..), education, medicine, athletics, the arts, sciences, and yes, we even had a Gay 19th Century president. They should not be targeted, ridiculed, isolated, threatened or attacked – this is not Christ’s example, nor does Scripture promote it. When groups are discriminated against and made a mockery, Holocausts evolve from this hatred. Yes, God-fearing, Bible-believing ‘Christians’ committing egregious crimes against humanity in the name of God. Despite the teachings of 2000 years of bloody history, religious zealots appear slow to learn.
    Tolerance and acceptance are key here – not arrogance (“I have the truth”), revulsion (“They think differently from me”), bigotry or ignorance (“I must change them”). Instead we must love each other. It is commanded in BOTH the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament: “The greatest of these is LOVE” (I Cor. 13:13, Lev. 19:18) And though he had virtually nothing to say about specific contemporary social issues, the Lord Jesus Christ summed it up succinctly in John 13:34-35: “Love each other as I have loved you.”

  • Marie (@441019)

    One of the arguments in favor of gay marriage is that someone has a right to marry the person that they love. But there are often situations where even a heterosexual cannot marry the one they love, and sometimes this is a struggle. I am a divorced woman. Years ago, when I was married (and unhappy in my marriage), I fell in love with a man I worked for, who was also married & had children. It was very difficult for me, emotionally, and I found it necessary to quit my job–it would have been a mistake (besides being wrong) to have an affair and would have caused many problems.
    Now, I have been divorced since 1986 and I live alone, and my children are adults. I just recently found myself very strongly attracted both physically and emotionally to a married man. I don’t even know him really well, but he seems to be attracted to me, also. He happens to own a store where I go every couple of weeks. I am not planning to have an affair.
    My point is that sometimes even heterosexuals cannot be with the man or the woman that they love or are attracted to. I am trying to put things in God’s hands and accept whatever is the will of God. I believe that doing what is right ultimately leads to happiness, and doing what is wrong always leads to unhappiness–in the end.
    I sympathize with Tim and his struggle with homosexuality, and I am sure he is doing the right thing by not following his inclinations.
    Regarding homosexuality–I worked for 10 years for the City of West Hollywood, which has a large gay population. While I worked there, I knew many co-workers who contracted AIDS, suffered and died. Homosexuality is risky for health reasons alone. I know that before the AIDS epidemic, there were bathhouses in San Francisco, which served as places for gay men to meet and have sex. The bathhouses were shut down after the AIDS epidemic started. I know that not all gay men are promiscuous, but there is a certain lifestyle among a segment of the gay population that encourages promiscuity. I have no dislike for homosexuals, but I do believe the lifestyle is harmful (as well as wrong) for the individual and for society. I also believe that there is a radical agenda (by a few persons or groups) that aims to change our whole society, which I find very disturbing.

  • Forgiven&NotCondemned

    We are so very wrong if we don’t believe that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. It clearly speaks about the creation of man, Adam, and the creation of woman, Eve, as Adam’s helper. God took time with his creation, lovingly, and saw that it was good. He created male and female, and the need for the woman and man to be helpers to each other. God’s delay in creating Eve after He created Adam, was so that Adam would learn about this need to have a helper. Adam had God in the garden to walk with. Adam had the animals and all the earth. Yes Adam was lonely. God created Eve, not Bob, as Adam’s closest companion. The bible clearly speaks about a man leaving his mother, and a woman leaving their home to become one flesh. These is no other unity of one flesh than one man and one woman. Adam lived in the perfect creation, until he sinned. That is was separated Adam from God, and that is what sin does to us today. Paul clearly speaks of homosexuality as being wrong. He speaks about the last days in Romans, and that men and women will have unnatural lusts toward other men and women of the same sex. It doesn’t say that it is acceptable to have sex and be kind to one another in doing so, sort of like what society calls “consensual” sex. What difference does consentual make if it’s wrong in God’s eyes? Thank you to Marie who pointed out that just because the feelings are there, doesn’t make the action right. Also, even if Christians used scripture to condone slavery, they were not interpreting it correctly. The passage stating for slaves to obey or honor their masters, states that by being humble, in the position we are in, actually shows kindness and obedience to others, regardless of how they treat us. It shows God’s heart. Then, that care/concern through humility will bring about change in others’ hearts brought about by their obedience to God’s word. The other justifications for inquisitions by Christianity was wrong also. No one can be forced to believe that Christ is their Savior. It can only come from God’s spirit leading them, and their desire to be led. That is what we are called to do to serve in God’s name, because of the love He shows us. There are many actions done in the name of Christianity that have been wrong, just as there are many actions by other religions that have been wrong. Just because something was done in the past, doesn’t make it right, even in God’s eyes. We can’t pick out pieces of the Holy Bible that we want to believe. It is either the truth, or it’s not. I know it is the truth, because of how God has acted to change me, and is continuing to change me. Several years ago, my brother was killed in an accident while serving at a Christian youth retreat. Within the next month, one of the leaders at the retreat who was on the scene of the accident, spoke to other youth about his life and Christian convictions. Over 60 youth decided to dedicate their lives to Christ because of this man’s commitment, love and sharing to people. This is how God speaks to those who love him, by comforting us in the knowledge that all “works together for the good of those that love Christ.” Not that all will be what we want it to be, or not that we will always be happy, but all works for good to glorify God if we submit to His words.
    Like C.S. Lewis says, in Mere Christianity, “When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house.”

  • DrRoosevelt

    While I applaud “Forgiven&NotCondemned’s” C.S. Lewis quotation (one I have held near in my faith journey for years), I must respond to several points. My previous article outlined succinctly numerous passages in scripture which are no longer observed (hundreds actually) in a modern context. Men, if you are shaving your beards, eating shellfish, getting tattoos, or wearing gold, you are violating God’s literal Word. If women are in public during their cycle, sleeping on the side of mountains (camping) or speaking in church, they are violating God’s Word. Again, you can not pick and choose – either you take it ALL literally, or you don’t. Slavery HAS been a major issue in the history of this country – abolitionists (generally Northern Christians) stated their view was supported by Scripture, and that God was with them, as did the pro-slavery component (generally Southern Christians). God can not have two differing views simultaneously – Abraham Lincoln stated as much. The Civil War was the result. The actual Biblical passage does in fact wrestle with the topic of humility, but it was used by God-fearing conservative Christians for 250 years to support the Institution of Slavery (and not humility), clearly an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. Millions of moderate and liberal Christians reject the concept of a literal “Garden of Eden” with an earth created in 6 days. Again, as these passages were oral tradition written down as True Myth by Hebraic scholars (there were no reporters recording a creation event), we can’t just point to a verse and say, “See? It says XYZ, therefore it is God’s word and that’s the end of it.” We MUST take the time to understand the original language (Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic), an accurate interpretation, understand cultural/historic context, and so on. It is far too simplistic to say “the Bible condemns homosexuality” when the Bible is in fact addressing tribal procreation, temple prostitution, infidelity, and other issues, but not same-gender committed, loving relationships. There was no concept or language for this 2000 years ago, as there was no concept for women’s equality in Judea of 100 BCE. Women were considered property of men, and had no rights – thus Scripture reflects this in numerous passages. It does not apply today – women and men are equal and should have the same rights (women are still fighting for equal pay for equal work and access to healthcare). TIMES CHANGE, people evolve, science, reason and intelligence advance, and laws are adjusted to reflect social progress in the human family. God doesn’t want God’s Children to remain static – nor should any one group of people be discriminated against or threatened by others with differing views. God’s Divine Love is big enough to envelop all people who turn to God, not just Baptists or Pentecostals. Martin Luther and Calvin were both very clear in their study of scripture – ALL people are saved by grace (God’s unmerited love) through Faith, and personal relationship is God’s desire. At the very least Christians should maintain non-judgmental, accepting relations with their Gay/Lesbian sisters and brothers (if they don’t, many of their church organs and music teams will be silenced!) At best, conservative Christians will see that all people are entitled to equal access to employment, housing, medical care, and participation in society, without discrimination, regardless of differing views on Biblical interpretation (which Christians of all stripes have fought over for 2000 years.) Moderate Christianity strives to serve as a balance between human experience, reason, tradition, the Word and God’s abundant love and personal relationship. Just as there is more than one way to baptize, or more than one way to pray, we suggest there is more than one way to investigate and digest ancient, sometimes archaic scriptural passages 3000 years old.

  • Mary Quesenberry

    The bottom line is “Do you understand the Bible to be the inspired Word of God and do you understand how to interpret it?” God says “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” II Timothy 3:16

    Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man cometh to the Father, but by me” John 14:6

    The Old Testament mentions of homosexuality always call it an abomination to God – along with other sexual sins and things such as pride, etc. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire because of this sin. Leviticus and other Old Testament books are the “law” that God gave to the Israelites (Jews) when they were under His authority alone. When Jesus was crucified and rose again, He became our High Priest and we came under the dispensation of grace. We do not live by all these laws, but it also says that Jesus didn’t come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. The law showed what sin is and gave consequences. But the law also gave us simple moral principles to live by (the Ten Commandments, “Do Unto Others . . .”, etc.), which make our society easier to live in if we follow them. When we don’t, there is chaos – people shooting others in schools, theatres, family restaurants; serial killers, child molesters, etc., etc., etc.

    People can’t just decide that however they decide to understand the Scriptures is OK. That is how we get cults; they distort the clear meaning of the Bible to say whatever is on their agenda.

    As far as homosexuality goes there ARE verses also in the New Testament. Romans 1: 22-32 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts and creeping things.Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves. Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections; forever their WOMEN DID CHANGE THE NATURAL USE INTO THAT WHICH IS AGAINST NATURE. AND LIKEWISE ALSO THE MEN, LEAVING THE NATURAL USE OF THE WOMAN, BURNED IN THEIR LUST TOWARD ONE ANOTHER; MEN WITH MEN WORKING THAT WHICH IS UNSEEMLY, AND RECEIVING IN THEMSELVES THE RECOMPENSE OF THEIR ERROR WHICH WAS MEET. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION, implacable, unmerciful; who knowing the judgment of God, that they which COMMIT SUCH THINGS THAT ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.

    I Timothy 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers and fathers . . . and mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, FOR THEM THAT DEFILE THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

    II Timothy 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days perilous times will come, for men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION . . . LOVERS OF PLEASURE MORE THAN LOVERS OF GOD, having a form of godliness, but denying the power therof; from such turn away.

    To find out why Christians should respond and how, see this website – http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective It’s awesome and written from a biblical perspective by a very godly man.

  • DrRoosevelt

    Mary Quesenberry, I am not certain you are reading my comments thoroughly. This was a bit of a dark, fear-based tirade I just read from you. Standard for many fundamentalists, this approach to Scripture, even to God, is an extremely weak argument , and not reflective of Christ’s light and love. Again, you have stated unequivocally the literal interpretation of passages speaking of ‘lustful urges’ and ‘homosexuality’. As a scriptural literalist I presume you got married at age 14, are a polygamist, refrain from eating shellfish and 28 other animals, own slaves, and if female do not speak in church. Again, where does our Lord Jesus Christ speak directly to the topic of same-gender committed, respectful, loving relationships? It is NOT there. St. Paul had many sexual hangups (including ‘Men do not give into your lustful urges and marry’… yes, he spoke against HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE as well.) You can rationalize it all you like, (you can not win a Biblical contest as a literalist against a moderate reasoned Christian – we do not believe the Bible was literally written by God, that every passage is without error, nor that the world was created in 6 days) – the bottom line is in fact God, the Divine, is big enough to create marvelous diversity in God’s earthly realm. This is also scriptural, should you care to spend some time with it. Again, if you are quoting Biblical references, (and the term “homosexuality” is not used in all translations, is in fact a poor translation of many other grievances, with same-gender committed relationships not addressed [though many liberals quote Jonathan/David and Ruth/Naomi to support this view]) you must be specific, understand exact translations, and have a working knowledge of historical context. No, this is not rationalizing – it is NECESSARY for FULL comprehension of scriptural truth – not verses thrown about to create division and persecution. Let’s leave the fear-based threatening faith systems out of the discussion – that is what leads to radical fundamentalism, and human death. It is NOT of Christ. And as I stated previously, it is all very familiar territory, when fundamentalists used scripture to proclaim bigoted hatred against mixed marriage couples, against Civil Rights, against Women’s Suffrage and in support of slavery. Instead of blasting out scripture, learn some history, and try not to repeat it.

  • Gary

    Tim, I pity you. You’re going to spend your whole life alone just because of some silly old fairy tale? If you’re really interested in truth and joy do yourself a big favor – chuck the mythology, step into the 21st century and find yourself a nice, good gay guy like you to to fall in love with and build a life with. Believe me: there is no greater joy than making love to someone you love that loves you too, and there is nothing more fulfilling than building a life with a mate who completes you, physically and emotionally. Not only do none of these “Christians” love you, they don’t really care about you at all and they hate what you actually are. Live your life honestly and make some new friends who will actually embrace every aspect of your being – the way that people who legitimately love you actually would. There is nothing wrong with you. There’s nothing wrong with being same-sex oriented or acting on it…but it’s deeply wrong to deny yourself a whole life.

  • DrRoosevelt

    Amen Gary! Praise be to God for Love, for Reason, for finding a mate in a brutal world. For joy-based living, for acceptance of each of us as unique women and men, for diversity, for intelligence, science, and the freedom to think, worship, and express as we each see fit. Tim step into the light, into the arms of someone who loves and accepts you for who you ARE, not some cookie-cutter conservative concept of what you ought to be.

    • 22044

      Dr. Roosevelt, for all of your credentials & knowledge, with all due respect, those are a waste if you don’t support Eric’s & Tim’s respective journeys to continue to become “imitators of Christ”. You see, all of Scripture holds together, and there is much wisdom outside of Scripture to suggest that homosexual relations are less than God’s best for mankind. There is nothing arrogant in holding onto the truth. The truth is found in Jesus Christ, not in great knowledge, and the truth will set us free.

  • Bob

    Why can’t Tim be judged on whether or not he’s a good person? Why must ancient prejudices (copied and pasted wholesale from pre-Christian Zoroastrianism’s Vendidad law, by the way) apply? Eric, why can’t you just accept that some people are gay and let them live and love? Why most you be “most definitely not pro homosexual”? Tim’s combination of decency, human value, and a homosexual orientation should be your proof that gay is not “intrinsically disordered”. It boggles the mind. Finally, why turn to research about the fluidity of sexual orientation and what it means to be gay? Why not just ask gay people?

    • Tina

      “Why can’t Tim be judged on whether or not he’s a good person? ”

      What definition of “good” are you going to use? Yours? Mine? The current law’s? Back in 1930′s Germany, a “good” person perhaps would have turned a Jew in to the authorities. In the South during the early part of the last century, “good” people upheld laws legally discriminating against blacks. When certain people started trying to get those laws changed, it was “good” people that tried to stop them (often resorting to intimidation and murder to do s0.)

    • Mo

      “Why can’t Tim be judged on whether or not he’s a good person?”

      Good according to whom? (And I was unaware that we were here to judge Tim goodness in the first place. He was simply sharing his story.)

      ” Why must ancient prejudices (copied and pasted wholesale from pre-Christian Zoroastrianism’s Vendidad law, by the way) apply?”

      What prejudice is being shown or promoted here?

      “Eric, why can’t you just accept that some people are gay and let them live and love?”

      Who here is advocating for stopping anyone from doing anything?

      ” Why most you be “most definitely not pro homosexual”? ”

      Because he is a follower of Christ, and the Bible is absolutely clear on its teachings regarding homosexuality. Is that a problem for you that someone holds that view? If so, why?

      “Tim’s combination of decency, human value, and a homosexual orientation should be your proof that gay is not “intrinsically disordered”.”

      The fact that homosexual desires are intrinsically disordered desires have nothing to do with whether a person struggling with those desires is a decent person, nor any denial of his inherent value as a human being. So I’m not sure what you are getting at with this statement.

      ” It boggles the mind. Finally, why turn to research about the fluidity of sexual orientation and what it means to be gay? Why not just ask gay people?”

      Not sure what the research part is about. But I’m sure if science somehow proved that people are “born that way” you’d be all for it, right? The fact is that science has shown no such thing. The fact is that many people used to homosexual and now are not.

      But the pro-homosexual side will not acknowledge this fact. They simply claim that these people were never homosexual to begin with, or that they are lying for some reason. How arrogant is that? ‘Why not ask them’, as you said?

      But acknowledging such persons would shred the lie that people are born homosexual and can never change. That is why they must not only be ignored, but bullied into silence.

  • Carlos Rodriguez

    Nicely, done. What escapes most people, as is the case with sex sins, is the fact that this journey is the same for us all who seek the Truth. We all have thorns in our flesh that are necessary to keep us seeking and depending on the only true hope, peace, comfort and love we shall ever know.. Jesus!! May we continue to encourage and uplift one another for His Glory and may we continue to be salt and light to those who have not yet come to have a relationship with Jesus.

  • Pingback: Ayn Rand no hero; Union Thugs; Dennis Miller; Divided Politics not Bad; Myth Liberals have Created; « ChosenRebel's Blog

  • Michelle

    Thank you for this article. My first encounter with someone who was open about their differing lifestyle, was back in my freshman year of college. What was most astonishing was out of all our co-workers, I was the only Christian (that I could tell) and the most accepting of the co-worker as a human being. I wound up being the one to stand up for him when our co-workers started attacking him and being relentless about it. Later he asked if I supported his life-style choice, and I said I thought his choice was wrong but that didn’t give me the right to treat him like a pariah like our fellow co-workers were. He was shocked. He said I was the first person, who openly believed in God and to just treat him like a human being. It was one of the first instances where I learned how to respect someone even though we had such differing views of the world, and to see more than just someone who was straight or gay. I tried to explain that in my acceptance of him, I did not condone his lifestyle and that I would be more comfortable if we just didn’t talk about that part of his life and in turn I wouldn’t talk about my own personal relationship with my boyfriend- just to make it not feel like an awkward double standard. It’s a fine line to walk as a Christian. I heard Mark Lowery once say, “How about instead of loving the sinner and hating the sin, we just learn to only love and leave the hating sin part up to God.” Our job is to love, and speak truth- using scripture- but in order to speak that truth we have to establish relationships where people feel safe enough to share with us. Great article, full of wonderful reminders- whether we struggle with homosexuality or other ‘private sins’ and ones that are more public.

    • Bob

      Michelle: You’ve described accurately what’s been happening in our culture as more and more gays and lesbians live their lives openly. Their friends and co-workers have been able to see them as the human beings they are. They’ve come to realize that a homosexual orientation isn’t in and of itself sin. Rather, a homosexual can live a moral life, with a committed relationship, love of family, dedication to community, love of children (others’, or their own by adoption or surrogacy), etc. As this realization has occurred, people have started to think for themselves “I understand that murder, rape, bestiality, theft, non-consensual sex, gossip, etc., are sin because they hurt others. But moral homosexuality is not the same. Their sex is consensual, and they are in every other way equally decent people.” Further, they realize “I guess the condemnations of homosexuality in Mosaic Law should be considered in the context of when they were written and by whom, just like we no longer follow the Mosaic law that women are to lie untouched on a menstrual couch for the entirety of their period, and take a ceremonial bath at the end of menstruation to become ‘clean’ again, or St. Paul’s admonition that they are to cover their heads and keep silent in church.” Slowly, but inexorably, people have adjusted their beliefs to match the reality in front of them versus the doom and gloom scenarios preached from the pulpit. It sounds to me like you’re part way there…I sincerely hope that completing your journey will relieve any tension of conflict that you current have.

  • M.C.G.

    I would like to point out how unfair it is to compare having homosexual inclinations to being “prideful, lusty, and greedy.” While gay pornography in itself may be a sin, so are all other kinds of pornography, and I find it very unlikely that when voices within the Church encourage someone to embrace his/her homosexual inclinations that they are condoning addiction to gay pornography. I do not understand what is so wrong with wanting to have someone to love–and this applies to people of all genders and sexualities. I find it very disheartening that so many Christians take judgment into their hands and condemn homosexuality as such a tremendous sin, when they themselves may understand very little of the subject. Doesn’t it seem hypocritical to associate homosexual attraction with lust and perversion, but yet deem heterosexual attraction as completely natural, when in reality all they both are is simply sexual attraction? I don’t understand from where so many Christians today assumed the power to tell others what is sinful and wrong and to judge them as “confused”, when Christ told us love our neighbors as ourselves.
    My big question here is, instead of having to decide between accepting homosexual tendencies and following one’s calling to Christ, why can someone not choose both? Ultimately the most important decision we can make is to follow Christ and live a godly life, but is there anything truly wrong with just wanting to be happy with what we are and rejoicing in the fact that we are all fearfully and wonderfully made?
    I am not saying that I disapprove of Tim’s journey to change. If someone truly feels in their heart that they are not comfortable with an aspect of themselves they have been struggling with, then taking the steps to change that and shift one’s focus to a higher calling are a very brave and admirable course of action. For this, I commend and highly respect Tim.
    But for those who think differently and just want to be happy with who they are, would it not be better for us to encourage them in their struggles (because all homosexuals have struggles, whether within themselves or from the pressure of the public eye) and show them the love and kindness of our savior, rather than pointing fingers at them, calling them sinners and expecting them to want to change?

    • Mo

      @ M.C.G. –

      “I would like to point out how unfair it is to compare having homosexual inclinations to being “prideful, lusty, and greedy.””

      Why? Sin is sin. The Bible is abundantly clear that homosexuality is a sin, just like pride and lust and greed are sins.

      “I find it very disheartening that so many Christians take judgment into their hands and condemn homosexuality as such a tremendous sin, when they themselves may understand very little of the subject. ”

      Yet you have no problem judging those who speak out against homosexuality. Why is that?

      “Doesn’t it seem hypocritical to associate homosexual attraction with lust and perversion, but yet deem heterosexual attraction as completely natural, when in reality all they both are is simply sexual attraction?”

      Why do people make this error? Of course it’s not hypocritical. Homosexual desires are something outside of the normal desires that God has given people. It’s a symptom of our deep brokenness as human beings after the Fall.

      Now, obviously, if you are heterosexual and seeking to satisfy those desires in a way that is not within the boundaries God has provided (which is in marriage) then that’s a problem as well.

      But to say that heterosexual desires and homosexual ones are the same/equal is just false. Bodies function in certain ways. They do not function in others. It’s as clear cut as that!

      ” I don’t understand from where so many Christians today assumed the power to tell others what is sinful and wrong and to judge them as “confused”, when Christ told us love our neighbors as ourselves.”

      And yet again, you have no problem telling those who stand with Scripture on this issue that we are wrong. Loving our neighbors as ourselves also includes stating the truth. The truth is that God has ordained things a certain way. The truth is that homosexuality is a lifestyle that leads to death. That’s the truth. And telling the truth IS loving.

      That’s as far as I read of your comment. I have the habit of replying in detail, only to have the person I’m speaking to completely ignore every point I make. I don’t wish to waste my time or yours if you are that sort of person. If you reply, then I’m happy to go further. Otherwise, I’ll leave it at that.

  • Marty

    Tim,
    Thank you so much for your testimony. We all struggle with sin. No matter what we do we are sinners until death. But through God’s grace we have salvation. It’s all about choice. We choose whether to sin or obey God. And when we fail, God forgives. I’m thankful for that. Our life is a struggle and but the more closer we cling to our Lord, the easier the struggle. I pray for you Tim and I thank God for your courage. Bless You and keep your faith. His love is far greater than we can imagine!
    Marty

  • http://onlyonelifetoliveforgod.blogspot.com/ Russ

    This was a fantastic video. Thank you Tim for having the courage to be transparent and post this so that others who are in your same situation can be encouraged to fight against these urges. May God bless you as you continue to walk with Him!

  • Stacie

    We just had cardboard confessionals at our Church. Several of us went up in front of 5 services worth of people (about 800 people in each service). On one side of the board we “confessed” the sin we struggle with; a few seconds later we flipped the board over to reveal how God is transforming us and giving us victory over our sin. It meant a lot to a lot of people in the congregation. I don’t see homosexuality as any better or worse than the sins that I am struggling with, which happen to be lusts of the flesh, lying, hatefulness and stealing. I have a strong inclination towards these things; however, with the help of God, I no longer engage in the activity of acting them out. I will pray for you Tim! I am so thankful for your confession: shining a light on the dark parts of our souls sends Satan running for cover. May God continue to bless and help you, and all of us, in our particular struggles, until He brings us Home. :)

  • willford

    what a crock!!

  • http://www.doncummings.net Don

    There is no difference between love, the love from God, to God, between Jesus and anyone and Agape love. Jesus had one plan. It was all about love. Love is so simple. Anyone who is living by the true meaning words of Jesus, but more importantly, FEELING the true feeling of love–that person would not waste one second worrying about homosexuality. In order to take on the fight against same sex attraction in the self or between others, one must be alienated from real love. Just as one must be against love if one desires to be at war. I have no idea how Christianity has grown to have factions that are so against love.

  • Mo

    After watching the video I have to say I wish I could give Tim a big hug.

    Thank you, Tim, for having the guts to talk about something so difficult and so private. Thank you for choosing Christ over what I’m sure are overwhelming desires. You are not alone! I bet if we were honest, we’d have to say we also struggle with things that we’d rather die than to say out loud.

    Sexual temptation of any sort has got to be one of the most difficult things to deal with in life. It’s especially difficult in our sex-saturated society, where we are constantly bombarded with images and music and music and the internet – and the drummed-into-our-heads lie that we were “born that way” and so we have no choice but to give in to whatever specific thing is that we struggle with the most.

    All the best to you, Tim. Stand strong, and take heart that one day these painful struggles WILL end, and we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. I desperately long for that day. I’m sure you do too.

  • Dan Avery

    When are we going to start addressing people who have Jewish inclinations? Truly, to deny that Jesus is the Son of God is a much deeper sin that sodomy—and we let people who identify as “Jewish” get married and raise children! (Studies have shown children raised in Jewish households get fewer Christmas presents than Christian ones.) Just because you have Old Testament attraction does not mean you are “Jewish” or that you can’t change if you accept Christ into your heart.

    We have to save those people from themselves!

  • http://timothy.green.name/ Timothy (TRiG)

    So I’m “prideful, lusty, and greedy” am I? Good to know.

    You know what, I’ll say this in short words. Fuck you too.

    TRiG.

  • Becky Colson

    We all have sinful natures. This man has bravely decided to be a chaste gay man. Why would anyone judge that? Whether atheist or Christian, gay or straight, male or female, Tim has decided to live the way that he feels God is leading him, and he is using accountability, discernment, and his knowledge of God’s amazing grace to lead him. You go Tim! Any single person (whether gay or straight) who is living chastely, is following God’s (Old and New Testament) prescription for purity. You should be commended, not chastised, shamed, or made fun of by other people who have not decided to follow your path. THEY should be ashamed of themselves! and then seek their own confessor :-)


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X