The Struggle to Wear Hijab on Egyptian TV

Ghada El-Tawil (pictured below) is an Egyptian anchorwoman who just recently returned to television. Six years ago, she was pulled from television after she began wearing a headscarf. The BBC has published a new story about El-Tawil in which she discusses her legal battle, why she wears hijab, and the struggles for Egyptian hijabis in the media. El-Tawil is not the only woman in Egypt who was pulled off the air after deciding to wear hijab. Her story highlights issues of image in the media–even media in a Muslim country where many women wear hijab.

Ghada El Tawil. Image via BBC.

Ghada El Tawil. Image via BBC.

Even now, El-Tawil does not know why her employer, Channel 5 in Alexandria, initially took her off the air. She speculates that her employer might view hijab as being associated with religious fanaticism. “I don’t know for sure why the management doesn’t like us wearing it. Maybe they thought we belonged to a very religious group, or something. They never gave us a proper reason.” I also wonder if the reason for the initial decision is because of the emphasis on women’s image in the media, even in the news. Was El-Tawil no longer seen as being attractive when she began to wear hijab? Did her employer feel that El-Tawil would not be taken seriously as a hijabi? Even now, El-Tawil has only been given one of her original posts (presenting a discussion program that is aimed mostly at women). She has not been given back her other post: reporting the English news bulletin.

El-Tawil’s reasons for wearing hijab may be based on an exclusive reading of the Qur’an (“The rule is, when a girl gets her first period, she has to cover her hair. I didn’t – but sometimes you don’t do many things you should”). However, whether one agrees with her reasoning for wearing hijab, El-Tawil brings up another relevant point, which is that a lot of Muslim Egyptian women wear hijab. I say this point is relevant because it further begs the question of why the Egyptian television media would not want women on air who look like many Egyptian women. Non-representation or under-representation of certain segments of a population is a problem that affects television news media throughout the world. In fact, I wish El-Tawil would have expanded on that point and more importantly, what the implications are for both hijabis and non-hijabis in Egyptian society.

El-Tawil brought up important points, but I wished she had gone into more depth about the issues she discussed. She may have been limited by space constraints (the BBC does limit how much one can write for their site) or her story may have been edited. Despite this, I think her story is a starting point for representations of Muslim women in television news.

Editor’s Note: You can read more about El Tawil’s legal battle in this piece from the BBC from last year.

  • http://getoutlines.wordpress.com Safiya Outlines

    Salaam Alaikum,

    Was there any need for the “her reasons are based on an exclusive reading of the Qur’an” part”? Some women do believe hijab is an obligation, just as some women don’t, this site should be a safe space for us to state either opinion without having to put in disclaimers. The important thing isn’t her reasons (that’s not for us to judge), but that she clearly made a personal choice to wear hijab.

    Also, the part about having to expand about representation versus non representation for hijabis and non-hijabis. Why should she have to speak for anyone else but herself? Isn’t this a problem that any Muslim woman is expected or viewed to speak for all Muslim woman, hence the need to disclaimer what they say anyway?

    Either she speaks for herself and her own experiences and you complain that she doesn’t talk about all Egyptian women, or if she does talk about Egyptian women in general, then she is chastised as not all Egyptian women feel like her/share her experiences or views. Either way she’s being set up to fail.

  • http://muslimahmediawatch.org/ Fatemeh

    The question, “Was El-Tawil no longer seen as being attractive when she began to wear hijab?” bring up an interesting point that gets into “lookism” of television news–does it really matter what she looks like if she’s reading the news? The focus should be on the news, not on her. Yet, the reality of television is that the looks of a female television presenter matter, much more than they do in the case of male presenters.

    I think the idea that she wouldn’t be taken seriously is an interesting one, especially since the headscarf is seen very soberly. I would expect people to take her more seriously, considering the cultural/religious rhetoric surrounding the headscarf. In that context, it makes even less sense why her employers would take her off the air.

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  • http://muslimnista.org Faith

    Wa ‘alaikum as salaam Safiya and Fatemeh,

    I think her quote was based on an exclusive reading. I’m really a stickler for this but I think when we’re in the media that we do have make exclaimers that our view isn’t the only view. I do think that the Qur’an mandates hijab but I realize that not everyone shares that view. I quoted another sister in my post last week and she said “If you limit the image [referring to a poster] to one kind of image then by definition you’re excluding other kinds of people.” Her statement excluded other views by making her view the only view. She said “the rule is…” making it seem that all Muslims are in agreement about this and that this is not her opinion but a fact. So, yes I do think we have to start using disclaimers and be more careful when we make blanket statements. So instead of saying “the rule is…” maybe say something like “my understanding is…”. This doesn’t mean we don’t have opinions or that I think El-Tawil or anyone else shouldn’t have opinions.

    About representation, I wasn’t asking that El-Tawil to speak for women who wear hijab but rather to the lack of representation of hijabis in Egyptian media. Basically, why does she feel that the lack of representation occurs? How does this affect her? How does she think this affects other women in Egypt who wear hijab? It would be like asking me how do I feel about the lack of representation of black women in Hollywood and how I feel this affects black women. Of course, I cannot speak for all black women but I think that would be a fair question to ask me.

    “Yet, the reality of television is that the looks of a female television presenter matter, much more than they do in the case of male presenters.”

    That’s so true even for American TV. Anchorwomen all seem young, “fit” and “attractive” while their male counterparts may or may not fit that bill.

    “I think the idea that she wouldn’t be taken seriously is an interesting one, especially since the headscarf is seen very soberly. I would expect people to take her more seriously, considering the cultural/religious rhetoric surrounding the headscarf. In that context, it makes even less sense why her employers would take her off the air.”

    I remember reading an article once where a woman was asked to take picture with hijab and without hijab and then random people were asked to look at the picture of the same woman and give their impressions. A lot of the respondents thought the non-hijabi was smarter than the hijabi. I thought about that when reading the article. Is there a sense that El-Tawil isn’t smart or intellectual now that she wears hijab? I definitely think that some Muslims and non-Muslims think that hijabis aren’t smart and aren’t critical thinkers because we wear hijab. I wonder if her bosses thought the same thing.

  • Ethar

    Aww Faith, I was going to write about this for my post. But it’s ok, I forgive you :)

    So here’s my two cents as an Egyptian women who ‘interacts’ a lot with society:

    Veiling in Egypt is, you would think, normal, since almost 80% of Egyptian women wear it.

    However, just because it’s the norm doesn’t mean we don’t have our own set of difficulties to deal with.

    I recommend that everyone read this article, which was published in the magazine I work at and part of the reason I became a journalist. Titled “Damned if you do, Damned if you Don’t”, it chronicles the difficulties Egyptian women face in the workplace when they don the hijab.

    Unfortunately, Egyptian women face many of the same stereotypes other hijabis face, even from other women. The most common one is hijabi = lower IQ. I have worn hijab for almost 10 years and yet I still hate it that whenever I accomplish something, it’s put in the context of “Good for you! You’re proving that veiled women are just as good as unveiled women! You’re breaking the stereotypes!” etc. My actions and opinions are judged according to a piece of fabric I wear on my head, and not by their own merits. I’ve talked to many people on the phone (in English) and then literally seen their faces fall and their jaws drop when they actually meet me.

    I can go on for ages talking about hiab, but I’ll spare you  This post, titled “To Veil or not to Veil, that is the Goddamn question,” and written by a friend of mine articulates a lot of feelings I have about the hijab, and illustrates how much meaning is attributed to it.

    So, about Ghada.

    Let’s not try and gloss over the issue: Service jobs and jobs like broadcasting need pretty people. Hijab detracts from the overall prettiness. Plus, like I said about hijab = low IQ, hijab makes people assume that the wearer is not as educated, as open minded, as tolerant (add as many adjectives in this same vein as you like) as non-veiled women. In short, we are taken less seriously and our opinion holds less weight.

    You bring up an interesting point in terms of representation. Yes, a veiled woman is a better representative of Egyptian women. But since the mainstream understanding of the veil is that it’s not the “best” a woman could be, that’s not the image “they” want up on TV. If you watch any Egyptian series/ movie, you’ll see that this belief is further reinforced by having the veiled woman always in inferior positions/ always religious/ cowed by husband etc, while the un-veiled women is always the trailblazer.

    Sigh.

  • http://jamericanmuslimah.wordpress.com Jamerican Muslimah

    Safiya Outlines,

    I agree with you 100%. I have been saying the same thing over and over again when it comes to the representation of Muslim women.

  • Sobia

    @ Safiya Outlines and Jamerican:

    I’m not clear on what you’re criticizing about the representation of Muslim women. Could one, or both, of you explain. Thanks.

  • http://getoutlines.wordpress.com Safiya Outlines

    Salaam Alaikum,

    Faith – I just feel why are tying ourselves in knots trying to be all things to all people. We know we are diverse. Other people will just have to accept that, which they will, in time. Every other minority group has experienced similar growing pains. We just have to let people speak for themselves, let Sarah Maple speak, let Naima b Robert speak, let everyone speak. After all we can possible give insights in to other people’s lives but we can only ever speak for ourselves.

    Also, I see this site primarily as a space for Muslim women. We should be able to state our beliefs and opinions here without feeling like we’re having to be the defensive representative, we’re forced into that role often enough elsewhere on the internet..

  • http://jamericanmuslimah.wordpress.com Jamerican Muslimah

    @Sobia,

    I was about to explain but Safiya took the words out of my mouth- again. (LOL). As a Muslim woman, I don’t want to be all things to all people. I want to be myself and speak for myself. For instance, when people ask me why I wear hijab, among the reasons I give is that it is a commandment from Allah in the Quran. I mention that there are Muslim women who disagree but that’s it. I am not going to get lost in explaining other people’s views and why they believe differently etc. because I am speaking for myself (and maybe for other women who believe the same thing.) Secondly, I don’t think if I am in a position where I am rapping, performing, writing, or speaking that I have to articulate thousands of other views held by Muslim women. Why must I carry such a tremendous burden? As Safiya said, “we’re forced into that role often enough elsewhere on the internet.”

    Please don’t take offense ’cause I love y’all like stepsisters but *sometimes* it seems as if MMW writers are trying to tell Muslim women how to speak and how to represent Muslim women. Isn’t that the same thing conservative Muslims do? To tell you the truth, as a Muslim woman I feel like I am being pushed from all sides. It makes me feel overwhelmed and a little schizophrenic.

  • Sobia

    @ Safiyah:

    And as far as I’m concerned this diverse representation is not really for the non-Muslim population but rather for the Muslim population. It is Muslims who need to see diverse images of Muslim women first, non-Muslims come second. We need to present a diverse representation for ourselves to show each other that we are diverse AND that this diversity is a good thing. When one only sees one image you quickly start to learn that other images are deviant, thus wrong.

    The Muslim community for too long has itself only presented one image as the “real” Muslim woman. It is time we criticize that uni-dimensional image for the sake of Muslim women themselves, not for the sake of non-Muslims. We need to work at being more inclusive and that begins by pointing out where exclusiveness exists.

    I’m a little confused about this statement:

    “We should be able to state our beliefs and opinions here without feeling like we’re having to be the defensive representative”

    There is no need to be defensive. No one here has questioned you or your position. Simply criticizing the exclusion of one group of women from the general representation does not mean we criticize the right of other groups to be a part of that representation. What Faith has pointed out, as a hijab-wearing woman herself, is valid. To me, she is simply asking for inclusiveness. I hope you don’t feel threatened by this.

    And I have to admit I disagree with this:

    “We know we are diverse. Other people will just have to accept that, which they will, in time.”

    I don’t think we do know we’re diverse. And that is part of the problem.

  • laila

    “I’m really a stickler for this but I think when we’re in the media that we do have make exclaimers that our view isn’t the only view.”

    You do not have to speak for other people you can speak for yourself but when you do speak for yourself make it clear that you’re speaking for yourself.

    El-Tawil said “The Rule is…” the rule is not the same for different groups of people in Egypt, clearly the “The Rule” is different in Indonesia, “The Rule” in Iran was 6 years of age, “The Rule” was different 20 years ago in Egypt. (What “The Rule” means) etc. When she states it like this, El-Tawil comes across as absolutely certain, as authoritative, as free of bias, as a claim of universalism, as EXCLUSIVE. How can El-Tawil have a universal, authoritative account of “The Rule”, when other people are excluded, she should have taken other people into consideration.

    Whatever “The Rule” means is personal, subjective, ideologically loaded, is affected by time, place, people and also has biases.

    “Also, I see this site primarily as a space for Muslim women. We should be able to state our beliefs and opinions here without feeling like we’re having to be the defensive representative…”

    How can any other person or Muslim women be able to participate when one states their beliefs and opinions as absolutely certain and authoritative for others? Other Muslim women or people are not included, not considered as part, they are left out!

    To be excluded is to be deprived from recognition, and sometimes it is a form of discrimination.

    To participate one must be Included. So speak your beliefs and opinions but the least a person can do is NOT be an authoritative representation.

  • laila

    @ Safiya Outlines

    “We know we are diverse.”

    But do other people us as diverse? I doubt many people know Islam as diverse or Muslim women as diverse, or else the representation of Muslim women in the media would not be so ……. (fill in whatever stereotypes you struggle with).

  • http://forsoothsayer.blogspot.com forsoothsayer

    i have to agree with ethar’s characterization of egyptian society as i see it. i know i would not have gotten several of the jobs i’ve had if i had been veiled (this was explicitly stated). this not only stems from the popular idea that when it comes to professional women, unveiled=smart independent thinker, but from what i think is the desire of some employers, egyptian government television among them, to present the most western appearance possible. because people in egypt often think western = civilized (although some people prefer western = decadent).
    it is most definitely illegal tho, from the labour code to the constitution.
    on a more personal level, however, i believe the ubiquity of the veil sexualizes unveiled women so much more that we become very conspicuous (and not in a good way). having the veil be represented proportionally on egyptian tv will possibly increase this marginalization and othering.

  • Sobia

    @ Jamerican:

    I see what you’re saying but *if* I’ve understood you correctly (which I may not have) then I must say I disagree.

    First, from my last comment you can probably tell that my main concern is how we are presented to Muslim women themselves mainly. I do think part of the concern is the non-Muslim community too and how they see us, but if we change the way we present Muslim women *to* Muslim women then the outside community will start to see us differently as well.

    Secondly, it sounds to me, like you may be giving me, as someone in the public eye, the green light to say that “the hijab is not compulsory in Islam” *without* saying that “not all Muslim women believe this.” ;) (Because that is what I believe) If those who present the hijab in the public eye as something which is a “rule” should not have to qualify that by saying “many, but not all Muslim women believe…” then why should the same not apply for those Muslim women who believe it is not a “rule”? However, I know that if I were to say this I’d be getting tonnes of complaints. Plus, it would be exclusionary.

    “Why must I carry such a tremendous burden?”

    Why is it such a burden to be inclusive??

    Why do we then complain to White feminists who do not include us? Why should they have to “carry the burden” of women of colour? Why can they not just say “this is how it is for women” without always having to say “but for women of colour it may not be and this is why….”

    “*sometimes* it seems as if MMW writers are trying to tell Muslim women how to speak and how to represent Muslim women. Isn’t that the same thing conservative Muslims do?”

    MMW is an inclusive space. We have to make sure that we include as many views as we can. As Muslim feminists we support inclusivity and criticize exclusivity as that tries to monopolize power by one group over another. (This will explain why we are often critical of a more conservative viewpoint as they tend to be exclusive by nature) If readers do not want to accept a group, or accept the inclusivity, or accept a representation of a group of Muslim women then that is their choice but I feel that we have a duty to make sure that we include as many views as we can. We present you with an inclusive representation, you take from it what you want. If you feel that we are trying to tell you how to think then, since we are not, I’m not sure how to fix that. But to be clear, we do have a viewpoint and ways of thinking that are not objective – no one can ever be objective about anything. Objectivity is a myth. So our subjectivity will show but it’s *impossible* for us not to.

    A huge part of feminism is to state your position clearly – to state your biases, your agendas etc. Being honest and saying that “this is my view only” is important in the feminist discourse and stating that “my experience is every woman’s experience” is very much looked down upon *now* – mainly as a result of the work of feminists of colour. It is feminists of colour who have so objected to these universal truths and as such we as Muslim feminists feel that we need to make sure that we do not make the same mistake. That is why we criticize those who make this mistake – Muslim or non-Muslim. And personally I will continue to do so.

    I do hope you find a place for yourself in this space, but I am sure at times you will disagree may not feel to fit. We don’t all have the same experiences and we do not all have the same opinions – even the contributors on MMW don’t always agree with each other. So I believe this feeling is natural since we are all opinionated individuals. But, as you can see, there is an avenue for you to air your grievances (in the respectful manner you always have of course :) ) and to present your viewpoint. This doesn’t mean someone will not challenge you but we expect that challenge to be presented in a respectful manner.

  • Krista

    Some of the points that Jamerican and Safiya are bringing up here are things that I’ve been thinking too in relation to this site. I’m not talking about this post in particular, necessarily, but I do feel like some of our MMW posts do harp on headscarf representative-ness more than is really needed. I’ve heard from another hijab-wearing friend that she doesn’t always feel welcome on this site, and that makes me uncomfortable. I’m *definitely* not saying that we need to stop being critical so that we can keep people happy, but I also don’t always feel like we’re striking the right balance on this issue.

    I mean, sure, if someone is making statements that are meant to reflect all Muslim women, or if someone is talking about how all Muslim women are wearing hijab, or that kind of thing, then it’s important to question that, and to point out that their statements are leaving out huge chunks of the female Muslim population. On the other hand, if a woman wears hijab because she feels that this is obligatory in Islam, and explains her own choice to wear it out of a sense of religious obligation, I think that’s a reasonable explanation, and doesn’t automatically necessitate a disclaimer that not all Muslims do the same. I also think that if a non-hijab-wearing Muslim woman is asked why she doesn’t wear it, and answers that she doesn’t believe it’s obligatory, that’s also an adequate answer, and doesn’t need a whole explanation that some woman do feel it’s compulsory. If someone on either side then goes on about how their way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong, then we definitely need to call them on it, but if it’s an answer about their personal commitment to wearing it (or not), then I don’t think we should always expect a long explanation about what everyone else thinks, especially if hijab isn’t the main issue being discussed.

    I also worry that if we’re so quick to say, well, we have to acknowledge that not everyone feels that the hijab is compulsory, we could be inadvertently giving further ammunition to people who would argue that hijab is oppressive and that Muslim women shouldn’t wear it, or people who would argue for the removal of headscarves in the name of secularism (a la French school system.) Especially in such an Islamophobic society, I think that we have to stand up for the rights of women who wear the scarf as a religious obligation, whether or not we agree with this. I feel like I’m not articulating this properly, I’ll see if I can think of a better way to express it…

    I get the feeling that a lot of the comments here are coming from places of pain and frustration… Muslim women seem to face all sorts of hijab-related pressure and judgement (from within Muslim communities and from the outside), whether or not we wear it. This is a tough issue, and I don’t really know what the right balance is. In this particular post, I do agree that saying something like “The rule is…” is somewhat exclusionary. But overall, my own feeling is that we don’t need to be questioning the hijab justifications quite as much as we currently do.

  • Ethar

    Krista: I couldn’t agree more!

  • http://getoutlines.wordpress.com Safiya Outlines

    Salaam Alaikum,

    Sobia – Please do not patronise me. I do not feel threatened. What I was trying to state in that Muslim women in both their real and online lives are frequently put in the position of having to defend their beliefs and actions… and it gets tiring. One hopes that a site run by Muslim women should be a respite from that.

    Also this part:
    “It is time we criticize that uni-dimensional image for the sake of Muslim women themselves”.

    Really? Do you think if Ghada El-Tawil read this post she would find it at all supportive? Or would she just feel dismayed at being criticised for her choice of words?

    Is all the criticism really benefiting anyone? Who decided that Muslim women need this for our own sake?

    “Not inclusive enough” seems to have become just like “Not modest enough”, another stick to beat Muslim women with.

  • laila

    @Krista

    “I also worry that if we’re so quick to say, well, we have to acknowledge that not everyone feels that the hijab is compulsory, we could be inadvertently giving further ammunition to people who would argue that hijab is oppressive…”

    Who are we appeasing the hijab wearing Muslim women or the Islamphobia’s? So the next time a person makes blanket statements about the veil others should be silent about it. People should be silent so veiled woman do not feel hurt and people should be silent so Islamphobia’s don’t use it to hurt us.

    Was not this whole article about defending a veiled/hijab woman rights to wear a veil and their rights to representation in Egyptian Media. Yes it was and I think most of the posts on this media watch (at least 75%) stand up for and support veiled/hijab women from all sorts of discrimination they face in the media and it attacks the ill representation that the women.

    Was their EVER a post that criticized or analyzed a veiled/hijab woman who gave a “reasonable explanation, and doesn’t automatically necessitate a disclaimer” about not all Muslims? The only time I read criticisms or analyzing was when blanket (exclusive) statements were made. In this post an exclusive statement was made! “But overall, my own feeling is that we don’t need to be questioning the hijab justifications” I agree with Krista but WHO QUESTION IT?

    You know what I’m reading from this is that no one should take about the diversity in Muslim women representation especially (the veil/hijab). That people should get away with making exclusive statements about the veil! I’m not surprised it’s the status quo in a few Muslim communities, and no one should dare demand the same respect.

    I don’t think it’s about asking for a long explanation about what ever one else thinks, I feel like it’s asking for them to be the ONLY EXPLANATION. And when ever someone states this is not the only explanation, people are offended or hurt. El-Tawil made an exclusive statement and Faith should have been silent about it?

    I feel like it’s a disregard for others… that’s a double standard.

  • Sobia

    Where is all this coming from? From ONE line in Faith’s post? And a very benign one at that? Has anyone realized that Faith’s post was actually criticizing the judgements made of El-Tawil’s hijab-wearing? What’s up with this all-of-a-sudden “MMW is anti-hijab” craziness? Where have we ever said this?

    I’m completely lost here.

  • http://jamericanmuslimah.wordpress.com Jamerican Muslimah

    Sobia, I can’t speak for anyone else but I think there has been a similar vein in some other articles posted on MMW.

    In my response I wasn’t thinking only about hijab though, I was thinking about the divergent perspectives that Muslimahs have in general; whether its leaning more conservative to more liberal and everywhere in between. I think I’ve just realized that this is one of those subjects that I’m just going to agree to disagree on. I stand by my feeling that I refuse to speak for other people. I hate/d doing it as an African-American and as a Jamaican and I hate doing it as a Muslim. For me it’s not about a refusal to be inclusive. There are thousands of opinions out there on thousands of Islamic principles. I am willing to state what I believe while in the same breath mentioning that there are those who may agree or disagree but that’s where it ends for me. (And it seems like I’m doing a little bit of what you’re suggesting as it relates to hijab anyway because non-Muslims are constantly asking me questions like ‘Why do you wear the scarf and [insert Muslimah's name] doesn’t?’)

    More than anything what I would like to see is a respect for the different perspectives between Muslims. But even as I say that, I admit to feeling like some Muslims are willing to “talk us out of” every Islamic principle. Sometimes I am afraid that Muslims will soon be like some of the Christians I grew up around; bending their religious principles to justify their actions rather than *at least* admitting they are not living up to their religious teachings. AGAIN, I am not speaking about hijab here but Islamic principles in general.

  • http://muslimahmediawatch.org/ Fatemeh

    @ Safiya: Sobia wasn’t patronizing you; she was attempting to understand your opinions and let you know that your comments are welcome here. We all do our best to create a safe space; Sobia admits her biases and attempts to work through them, and has worked very hard to ensure that her responses to your criticisms have been diplomatic and thoughtful. Give her credit for that.

    “Muslim women in both their real and online lives are frequently put in the position of having to defend their beliefs and actions… and it gets tiring. One hopes that a site run by Muslim women should be a respite from that.”

    While I agree that Muslim women are always put on the defensive, I don’t agree that a site for Muslim women by Muslim women is going to automatically be free of women explaining themselves. If you go to other websites for Muslim women, you’ll find just the same thing: sisters agreeing and disagreeing. Support is not the same as complete agreement: we include each other to support each other, but all of us aren’t ever going to agree on anything/everything.

    The only thing that changes here is the audience: we’re explaining our positions to each other here (in theory), not to non-Muslims or Muslim men or whoever. Only in a place where everyone thinks the same and diverging opinions are ostracized/not allowed will you find no explanations of opinion or criticism: no one will need to defend themselves because there won’t be anything to defend–differing viewpoints aren’t accepted, period.

    Everyone’s criticisms of our viewpoints and articles are accepted here, because this is a site for opinions and exercising the right to have them (within comment moderation guidelines–there is a limit to the hating we will deal with). This isn’t a fan club. This is a site for support, yes, but also for fighting: fighting for unity despite difference, fighting to understanding each other, fighting against representations of us we find offensive and hateful.

    Imma have a group discussion with my ladies and hopefully get back to you all on this. Thank you, everyone, for your comments and criticisms. If you want to vent a little more, feel free to email us about this.

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