More Than One Paganism

I had initially intended to have this article finished last week, in coordination with the wonderful “Future of Paganism” series, however as so often happens, life intervened. Still, I’m posting it now –better late than never!—because I think that this is something that needs to be said clearly and without compromise for I’ve worked in too many venues wherein the well-meaning people (most all committed to ecumenicalism or interfaith work) struggled mightily with this truism: “Paganism” is a multi-faceted umbrella term encompassing many different and varied faith traditions. In short: there is no “one” Paganism. Paganism is not a religion so much as a family of religions, plural. For those on the outside, that can be very difficult to understand yet it is, however, a very important point.

I have for years worked in the interfaith community, trying to build bridges of understanding between monotheistic traditions and various polytheologies. It’s not been easy. I have noticed that there is tremendous resistance in the interfaith community to embracing the scope of religious traditions within Paganism. Numerous times I have lectured on Heathenry only to be greeted afterwards with the question “so how long have you been Wiccan?” It is as though there is an unstated assumption that just because we all have many Gods, we’re all practicing the same religion when nothing could be further from the truth. There are different Pagan religions and within those religions there are differing denominations. I understand that for those coming from monotheism, it can be enough to make one’s head spin!

We have Reconstructionist Paganisms that are hard polytheist and draw heavily on specific cultural practices and historical writings for context and praxis. This would include Heathenry, Hellenismos, Nova Roma, Kemetic religion, Romuva, Celtic Reconstructionism, Caananite Reconstructionism and more. Each is its own religion with its own ideologies, theologies, and inter-denominational differences. We have many different denominations of Wicca, which tends to be more pantheistic and often but not always Goddess oriented and the same holds true here: this is a different religion from Asatru or Heathenry, or Romuva, etc. with just as many different denominations. And this is just brushing the surface. There are many, many more religions under this broad umbrella than just these two particular families. Each Pagan religion has a different theology, ideology, ritual praxis, and history. They cannot be lumped together, not accurately anyway, and to do so is an act of disrespect and ultimately of ignorance however well-meaning it may be.

I think that there’s a tendency in interfaith groups to try to fit the broad spectrum of polytheologies into a neat category, to make it as close to what is known and safe, i.e. monotheism as possible. I’ve even seen this tendency in Pagan and Heathen groups to some degree, particularly when it comes to the sheer number of Gods. There occasionally  seems to be a discomfort with the sheer multiplicity inherent in polytheism. It’s as though it’s simply not decent to have more than a handful of Gods! This, I would chalk up to a monotheistic and post-colonial upbringing, by the way, the unspoken prejudice that having dozens of Gods, and spirits…that’s what those primitive people over “there” do.  I think that as contemporary Polytheisms progress and evolve, this will, hopefully, fall by the way-side. When this happens outside of our own religions, it’s a bit more troubling.

There is a strong push in interfaith work to find common ground and to honor all paths to the Divine. That push to find common ground often leads to important differences being minimized. I chalk this up to an underlying fear of conflict, a fear that if there isn’t blanket agreement, this means there is intolerance. There isn’t yet the comfort with polytheism, or the understanding that not only are all faiths nuanced and complex, but that those complexities can be honored even, perhaps most especially where there are differences. Difference  need not preclude partnership.

To give a very, very common example: for a polytheist, using vague words like “Spirit” or “Mother-Father God” not only does not encompass our beliefs, but sometimes edges perilously close to disrespect for the Holy Powers. (Upon hearing these terms, I have a tendency to ask “which one?” which does not endear me to my colleagues!). This is not the polytheist being purposefully contrary; it is a matter of living one’s beliefs and being respectful to one’s Holy Powers. It’s not enough to include a vague feminization of “God.” All Deities may be worthy of respect, but They are not all the *same*, or interchangeable. To the pantheist, this may not be an issue and indeed I have seen pantheism embraced far more readily in interfaith circles than polytheism. The ongoing attempt in interfaith circles to make everything the same is immensely troubling and seems to be to belie the true aim of interfaith ecumenicalism. Granted, there actually may not be a solution that is comfortable for all sides, but true respect demands that the attempt to find one be made, that continuing dialogue ensue, that people work to educate themselves and also that we own our own prejudices. All too often in situations such as this, the polytheist’s concerns are dismissed, or met with a subtle arrogance, a holier-than-thou attitude of being more enlightened (since obviously polytheistic insistence on singular multiplicities is somehow primitive…see three paragraphs above).

While you will never find me arguing for anything approaching what my colleague L. Patsouris has so accurately referred to as a taxonomy of the spirit, I do think it is important to recognize the many rich and complex variations of Paganism that have developed over the last forty years. We would never think of dismissing Baptists, Lutherans, Amish, Catholics, and Pentecostals as one single religion. We have learned, as a culture to respect the often dramatic differences of theology and approach inherent in these religions, though they all fall under the broader umbrella of “Christianity.” They are individual facets of one tradition sharing at best a common core cosmology. That is more than can be said of Wicca and Heathenry. These religions share nothing at all, save that they both fall into the category of “Paganism.”

The religious world is changing. It’s growing and expanding in ways that we couldn’t have dreamed of even twenty years ago. Those changes may be uncomfortable. Some of them may be troubling. Ultimately though, they need to be met head on, addressed, and explored. Unintentionally marginalizing a growing body of faith traditions brings merit to no one. Even when we do it to ourselves.

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  • Therapon

    Paganism = Greco-roman polytheism.

  • Todd Jackson

    I somewhat disagree. While it is certainly true that each tradition is distinct, and that this distinction must be respected, what we’ve come to call “hard polytheism” is a modern invention that does not actually reflect the ancients.

    What the ancients understood was that there was *translatability* between pantheons, so that in fact the deity the Hellenes called Apollon might be called Horus in Egypt, and that the deity known as Aphrodite might also be known elsewhere as Isis. The understanding was that this was the same deity; Odin was often held to be Hermes or Mercury, who was also held to be Thoth; Dionysos was held to be Shiva; and so on.

    Generally, it was important to maintain consistency in the names and rites of any particular deity, but this was because those names and rites were, themselves, held to be divine – not because, as “hard polytheism” would have it, the deities were fundamentally distinct.

    It isn’t simply that this translatability reflects the actual beliefs of the ancients. Follow hard polytheism to its logical conclusion and the universe itself fails to cohere and necessarily reverts back to chaos. If the Sun God of the Celts is fundamentally different from the Sun God of the Hellenes, the Sun itself must act differently in Dublin and in Thessaly. The only possible resolution would be to posit a term, a deity, *above* either God. This would call into question the very Godhood of those we call the Gods.

    I used to participate in a pagan interfaith ritual in which, at each Full Moon, we would simply gather into a circle, hold hands, and one by one shout out the name of the deity each worshiped as the Goddess (it’s usually Goddess) of the Moon. It wasn’t meant to supercede anyone’s particular tradition. It was simply a nice interfaith moment.

  • http://twitter.com/gleamchaser/status/22796378219 Star Foster

    More Than One Paganism @patheos #pagan http://bit.ly/cA87GZ

  • http://twitter.com/astralweaver/status/22797027746 Moon Mama

    Excellent discussion of Pagan differences. RT @gleamchaser More Than One Paganism @patheos #pagan http://bit.ly/cA87GZ

  • Johnny Rapture

    Hello Galina! I enjoyed your post, because I too have struggled in interfaith situations, and have written about my experiences here: (http://tinyurl.com/236c8bq ), So, I hope you’ll consider the following comments. You say, “Each Pagan religion has a different theology, ideology, ritual praxis, and history. They cannot be lumped together…”. and “These religions [Wicca and Heathenry] share nothing at all, save that they both fall into the category of ‘Paganism.’” Why, then, do we insist on categorizing them together at all? The phrase “umbrella term” gets thrown around a lot regarding paganism but, to my mind, it refers to what you describe as the situation with the diversity of denominations labeled “Christian” – all sects under the umbrella share “a common core cosmology” – which is, just as you say, not at all the case with “Pagan.”

    However, I’m not so sure personally that it’s “the monotheists” who don’t grasp “polytheism.” I think those categories are far too broad, in that to apply them accomplishes exactly the thing you argue against. For, like today’s varieties of “Paganism,” not all monotheisms behave in the same way, nor do I think it’s accurate to assert that monotheists don’t “get” polytheism. They must understand it some way different than the tendency toward forced monotheism you describe, for many of them assert the necessity of avoiding polytheism as a prime theological tenant—take orthodox Muslim education, for instance. Sure, the perennialist philosophy that undergirds the interfaith movement is exhausting and problematic, but that’s a problem with the interfaith movement, not necessarily with monotheists en masse. (See here: http://tinyurl.com/2fhsg8x )

    Indeed, I think your message would be better directed at us pagans ourselves, since many of us often treat paganism as a monolith. I’ve had countless experiences where I’ve heard a pagan talk about something “in OUR religion,” or words to that effect. If we want folks at interfaith events to stop lumping us together, then I believe that we need to stop doing so ourselves. And, as you and I clearly agree, because the various paganisms “share nothing at all,” we really ought to ask ourselves why we continue to use the word “Pagan” in the first place.

  • http://twitter.com/vyk1345/status/22800735863 Sean Holt

    RT @patheos: More Than One Paganism #patheos #pagan http://bit.ly/drN1kY

  • http://aediculaantinoi.wordpress.com/ P. Suf. Viri. Lup.

    Really excellent discussion, Galina, and one that I’ll be dealing with on my own blog soon (and has been “in the air” elsewhere recently as well).

    Todd, I don’t know if that’s entirely accurate. It is certainly accurate for the Hellenistic period, and late antiquity/the Roman period, but it may not be accurate for everyone throughout that time period, nor for the periods before it. As empires grew larger, and inter-cultural contact became more frequent and unavoidable, that certainly happened; and yet, we also find Graeco-Egyptian magical texts (the PGM corpus, for example, which is Hellenistic/late antique) in which there are many different names of a particular being enumerated, and yet it is insisted that no one leave all of them out or translate them. If the gods really were that interchangeable, then one could just say “Hekate” rather than Hekate Ereshkigal Nebutosoualeth, etc.

    Movements toward pantheism and a softer polytheism through syncretism tend to emerge in contexts where such internationalism is more frequent. However, I don’t think that means that everyone in that period thought so–the differences between the cults of Artemis in Sparta and in Athens, much less in Epehsus, suggest that it is not necessarily the case even with one deity that we recognize under one name was recognized by the ancients as “the same” as it was somewhere else.

  • http://www.patheos.com/ Star Foster

    There was also the derision of the Gods of other cultures. It wasn’t all friendly. The Romans in particular held the Gods of Egypt and the Druids in contempt.

  • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com Norse Alchemist

    Todd, I’ll go with that being the Roman View, but as far as the Germanic, Norse, and Celtic peoples were concerned, it was very much Hard Polytheism. Odin and Mercury/Hermes might have had similar jobs, been tied to the same day of the week, same planet, etc, but they were viewed as very distinct and different individuals. I’ve never picked up any sense that it was the same god under different names, but completely different gods and goddesses.

    A simple look at the personalities of the gods and goddesses would show this too. Zeus and Thor had the same powers and were considered each others’ equivalent, but Thor wasn’t a womanizer nor was he king of the gods. Zeus didn’t ride around in a chariot pulled by goats, nor did he wield a hammer or fight as much as Thor.

    Indeed, Mars and Aries were the “same” god, but they were viewed radically differently by the Greeks and Romans and had slightly different personalities. Now, there could be a case for them being the “same” god and I would consider that position valid, but I’m afraid I have to stand with all gods are their own person. To do any less would be disrespectful. It would strike me as the same thing if one were to consider the greatest warriors of Norway, Rome, and Egypt the same person simply because there the “greatest warrior.”

    But that’s just my view.

  • Matt Gerlach

    Actually, it is ironic that you would use Mars and Ares in your example of Greek and Roman Gods being the same. We see Mars starting out in Rome as an almost purely agricultural deity, where early Romans considered Janus to be their warrior God. In fact the doors of the oldest temple to Janus, not Mars, were left open in times of war (so that the path for returning soldiers would always be open) and closed during times of peace (so that peace would be safely held inside). Only later did Mars become the warrior God as Greek influence in Roman culture began to ramp up creating the “Greco-Roman” pantheon we see today.

    The question is… since we know Mars was not Ares at the outset (and Mars’ agricultural associations continued even after his syncretism with Ares), was, or rather, IS Mars Ares? We know the Romans used the Interpretatio Romana when referring to Gaulish and Germanic Gods, but we don’t really have a clear idea of why. Was it because they actually believed them to be the same God? Was it part of a plan to more easily Romanize the people, so that they would more willingly pray to and give sacrifice to Roman Gods? Was it merely a way to belittle and delegitimize the knowledge and standing of the Druids and Germanic priests?

    We cannot know what exactly the ancient people believed about the Gods outside of an amazingly few number of sourced, i.e. anything the Christians decided they weren’t going to burn. Particularly with the Greek and the Roman Gods, I think the only way we will every be able to know if they are different entities it to actually work with them and see what happens.

    The point about Sun Gods and Moon Gods is indeed a sticky theological issue, one that cuts to the heart of the questions of “What exactly are the Gods?” We can never be quite sure. And for someone who tends to drift between Norse, Greek and Roman influences, it’s an interesting sensation looking up at the moon and thinking to myself, “Am I looking at Mani? Diana? Artemis?”

  • http://wyrddesigns.etsy.com K. C. Hulsman

    When I grew up in school they talked about the Indians, or Native Americans. Sure in my class we talked about some of the more well known tribes, the Apache, the Cherokee, the Algonquins, the Dakota, the Hopi, etc. But the truth is there were HUNDREDS of Indian tribes, while some may have similar aspects, they were each unique, individual cultures. Many of which I’ve never heard of, which is not to negate their impact on history. Go gander at this list for a bit of mind bogglement:
    http://www.native-languages.org/languages.htm#alpha

    We have this tendency to try to put things into neat boxes and categories, it helps us to process. There’s a time for this, when comparison and contrast can be helpful… there is a time to look at the ‘forest’ so to speak, but then there is also a time to look at a specific ‘tree’ in that forest too. I think that as a whole, people tend to look to much at the big picture, because they feel ‘bogged down’ by the specific minutiae. I myself traverse that line regularly, talking about the Northern Tradition… but then I also strive to be sure to denote the differences of practices within that vast umbrella term.

    @Matt Gerlach – I find that all fascinating. Ah the joys of Deep thoughts, and puzzles with no easy answers… then again that is (to my mind) what is the crux of religious faith and the value we individually find in it.

  • http://twitter.com/spiritscast/status/22844488261 SpiritsCast

    RT @patheos: More Than One Paganism #patheos #pagan http://bit.ly/drN1kY

  • Laura Patsouris

    Great article! Interfaith dialogue definitely should not come at the cost of lumping every tradition together into an unidentifiable, gelatinous mass of paganism. Sometimes I think that our society is so shaped by monotheism that, when a difference exists, we assume there has to be “one true way” that will win out…which makes us try to gloss over any distinctions that may be viewed as troublesome. True dialogue comes from understanding and accepting multiplicities of experience. Well done!

  • Bookhousegal

    It’s important to remember that using ‘vague’ terms like Spirit in certain discussions isn’t always (or usually) about ‘creeping monotheist influence,’ …sometimes it’s definitely meant to express things that cross boundaries of specific tradition, or indeed, to speak to people who may not be Pagans at all.

    When I use ‘vague’ terms or epithets for the Gods, it’s often simply because I rarely speak of Them by name in front of outsiders, which both has precedent in my ancestry and seems very practical in a world where a certain number of people are hostile. I frankly don’t particularly care to hear Their names on the lips of disrespectful people, and it’s as well to say ‘Lady’ or ‘Mother’ or use some other epithet.

    ‘Hard polytheists’ have a tendency to speak as though there is some opposition with ‘soft polytheists,’ (and often with the implication that a ‘soft polytheist’ is wishywashy’ carelessly-eclectic, or doesn’t know what she’s talking about. )

    I actually came to interpret my own visionary experiences and studies as leading to a notion that there are simply different *scales* that people see the universe and Gods about. The bigger the ‘scale,’ the vaster and less ‘individual’-seeming will be the view of ‘Goddess:’ the more local the view, perhaps the more specific They’ll appear. Perceptions vary and shift with culture and location: it’s easy to see the similarities and overlaps and evolutions of those perceptions among neighboring and connected cultures, and harder the more one looks across place and time. One would actually expect this, if one considers we’re all looking at what we can see between ourselves and beings that may go vaster and deeper than we see ourselves as being. There’s a common substance, though, one which I’m sure confuses the Gods less than it does us.

    The ancient world does seem to have taken this sort of thing more or less in stride, sounding, I think, much like we do today about sometimes identifying one God with another, and sometimes considering Them very separate beings. I think we’re actually part of the same thing, just in different forms: still more individual-seeming, yet part of a common consciousness.

    Where I think monotheism gets things wrong is in mistaking a very *specific* God and claiming that that individualized being is in fact the ‘all and only,’ and when different views of that ‘all and only’ collide, there’s conflict. Someone must be ‘completely right’ and everyone else must be ‘completely wrong.’

    That hardly matches our experience.

    Where eclecticism may become careless may be the opposite: thinking that the individual forms and traditions are simply *interchangeable.*

    One can think of it like analog radio signals, one can tune in to a narrower ‘band’ or a broader one, and there’s really no particularly-sharp delineation between them.

    Where cultures are in relative isolation, they may never catch the overlap, like if you’re in a place with only one big station, …where things are more …cosmopolitan, what at first may seem like an unintelligible overlap of signals can actually resolve into a sense of the spectrum itself.

    I always think of a particular encounter in my city-shaman heyday with someone working for one of the West African powers, one with a lot in common with and a lot very distinct from my own patron God, …we met when we were both responding to the same messed up situation. We spotted each other out, immediately, (This dude was *shiny* and you could *smell* just who was on him, …I was pretty deep in it, myself, and seemed to have given a similar impression. ) and nothing seemed more clear than that we were both dealing with both very distinct personages, and very deep (*and interesting*) primal connections, expressed very differently.

    There were many ways in which we couldn’t be more different, and ways in which we were on the same job.

    Actually, how cool is this: he repeated *verbatim* what I’d ‘heard’ to bring me there.

    There’s theology, and then there’s what it’s about. Hard to wrap the mind around, but I suppose I’d expect no less. Maybe it’s why, among the many faiths of the world, seers and mystics get along a lot better than lorekeepers and lawgivers. :)

    The way I see it, both ‘hard’ and ‘soft’ polytheism are facts of life. The Gods are much like us, in some ways, both individual beings and part of something vaster. It’d be careless or even erroneous to try and substitute one of us for another in our daily lives, but from a broader view, we’re also part of the very same Stuff.

    Humans, we’re the ones who tend to try and choose between these ideas. We struggle about self/other, about individual/communal identity, about Yes/no, all or nothing. But Paganism in general isn’t all about setting out binary conditions. Rarely has been.

  • Bookhousegal

    Btw, Matt, if I can weigh in on this, accordingly:

    “The point about Sun Gods and Moon Gods is indeed a sticky theological issue, one that cuts to the heart of the questions of “What exactly are the Gods?” We can never be quite sure. And for someone who tends to drift between Norse, Greek and Roman influences, it’s an interesting sensation looking up at the moon and thinking to myself, “Am I looking at Mani? Diana? Artemis?””

    That’s actually a pretty neat one. I actually prefer to meditate on it than to try proving a thesis, but I suspect these views are about our tendency to try to put everything in tidy boxes. Sometimes you’ll find solar Gods and Sun Goddesses, and sometimes almost the reverse, For instance, sometimes you’ll see lunar Goddesses represented, not *as* crescent-Moon shaped things, (bows and bull-horns, for instance,) but as *holding them.*

    I’d have to do a lot more research to try and come up with some big thesis, but I think the assignments of ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ qualities to the Sun and Moon (And, notably, as opposed to sunlight and moonlight) come from a certain deeper bunch of notions that tend to get subsumed over time in particular cultures, or later interpretations of those cultures.

    Too interesting for me to want to try and nail down, but I do think it’s a good example of how our views and categories change, when there may be more unity behind these disparate perceptions and interpretations than we’re inclined to think.

    Is a given experience about the Sun, about the light, or the effects in the Earth, for instance. The Moon, the moonlight, or what happens in it?

    I think it’s pretty telling that so many of our Gods are shapeshifters, at least when they come to Earth. Maybe that’s part of what we learn. ;)

  • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com Norse Alchemist

    Matt, I think that when it comes to the ancients says that one god was like another i.e. Odin and Mercury, I actually think they were doing something similar to what you’ll sometimes see in travel books, where they will compare on social practice to another, such as shaking hands in America and bowing in Japan. Sort of a way to say “This practice is the equivalent of that person’s practice or This Politician is the equivalent of that Politician, so now you know and won’t insult someone in ignorance.”

    That would be how I look at it.

    Bookhousegal, I get where you’re coming from and you have a really interesting point. I think I might be able to explain the reactions of Hard-Polytheists though. When soft-polytheists say that all gods are aspects of the Great Masuculine/God/Insert Term Here, It is to hard-polytheists like saying “All Men are the same.” Now, it is true that all men are similar, but there are some who take insult to say all men are the same. Hard Polytheists experience the gods and goddesses as singular individuals, so in a way they see soft-polytheists as insulting their friends (at least in the Asatru, I’m not sure what rank Gods and Goddess hold with Hellenists or Khemetics) by saying “Oh, they’re all the same.” Maybe this is not the intention of the soft polytheists, but it is how it sometimes comes across.

    I hope that helps.

  • Matt Gerlach

    @Bookhousegal – I totally agree with you that, with hard and soft polytheism, the truth is somewhere in between. The best metaphor I can think of is that the Gods are like mountains in a range: if you’re looking at the peaks they look obviously separate, but if you look at their bases it all becomes more or less one continuous stream of rock.

    And on the Sun and Moon thing, I read somewhere that in general tropical cultures tend to see the Sun as male and the Moon as female because of traditional gender roles. The hot Sun is strong, overpowering and dangerous (a traditional man) while the Moon is soft, cool and gives nurturing relief from the heat of day (a traditional woman). On the other hand, cultures with more arctic influence tend to see the Sun as the warm, nurturing, relief-giving one while the Moon is harsh, cruel and cold, like a predator prowling through the night sky.

    Apparently Wicca had enough influence from ceremonial magic (which had Greek/Roman/Jewish/Islamic influences) that the Sun/male, Moon/female system was adopted, while the Germanics, coming from further north (and deeply influenced by arctic circle cultures like the Sami people), took the other system. I don’t know why the Japanese have a Sun Goddess and a Moon God, however.

  • Bookhousegal

    Interesting stuff, Matt and Norse: :)

    Actually, Matt, instead of saying ‘The Truth Is In Between,’ what if it’s *more of both?* :)

    The mountain range metaphor, though, very like my radio one, I think: these views are actually both true.

    More than that, too, where you have a mountain range, you also have sky and the ‘negative space’ between the peaks: to some views separate, to some absolutely inseparable.

    My point of view coming to these ‘Mysteries’ is one where I knew my Gods in many ways, before I found Their names, even: this was actually part of my ‘journey.’ Hard to inject it into academic discussions, but it does mean I’m actually quite convinced that both ‘sides’ of what are in words a debate are actually true. Some ‘paradoxes’ are like that: they aren’t all ‘contradictions,’ …if they make an ‘Aha!’ even an inarticulate one, that’s different from when something’s merely a contradiction.

    Call it UPG, or just anecdote, but one thing I seem to feel is that there are shared attributes between, say, Amaterasu and Aine, and I’ll also note that both of these figures are associated with the Kami/Fair Folk, ….very tied to the land and spirit-world, perhaps more than, say, embodying the surface world.

    Behind ‘Why is there this seeming-contradiction,’ perhaps there’s a reality that can be approached from the other ways: There are attributes interpreted as ‘Masculine Sun’ and ‘Feminine Sun.’ I think these are at least *felt* by many of our Heathen friends when talking about the Aesir, Vanir, Landsvettir, well, everyone else in the Nine Worlds, and where there are connections between.

    Not to suggest giving up on trying to, but sometimes humans like to categorize first and then wonder why the categories seem contradictory. I was a seer before I was a declared Pagan, so I have this kind of relationship with the words and labels, where I tend to start with the experiences and figure it out later. I have always been convinced it’s not a question of ‘what is and what ain’t,’ but of understanding how we see what there is.

    Anyway, to Norse:

    There’s a lot of interesting stuff said by the ancient ‘travel writers,’ …It’s important to remember, too, that in some ways they aren’t so different from travel writers throughout history: there are clear signs of a a certain amount of sensationalism: they were, after all, trying to make interesting stories. Their own point of view and objectives are important to consider when trying to figure out just what they were actually looking at.

    As for this: “I think I might be able to explain the reactions of Hard-Polytheists though. When soft-polytheists say that all gods are aspects of the Great Masuculine/God/Insert Term Here, It is to hard-polytheists like saying “All Men are the same.” ”

    Well, I think that too often, the ‘hard polytheists’ will enter such discussions *defining the point of view of others and then saying that point of view is offensive.*

    And this is not to claim that *some* ‘soft polytheists’ aren’t lazy about equivalencies: where the Gods *are* individual, those individualities are not *interchangeable,* being the important point, here.

    In a sense, sometimes ‘hard polytheists’ will sound like they’re saying the Gods are *self-contained* individuals, and not actually connected to any other shapes They may take. I don’t personally hold to that notion: I think They’re *distinct* individuals, yes, but I also think They’re bigger and deeper than what any individual or culture sees. Which is to say I think They’re *both* at least as individual as we ourselves and *at least* as much sharing a common being as we. It’s perhaps a matter of point of view, but I think that They both exist in *many* points of view and take specific shapes for darn good reason. I’m not one who’ll quibble with Them about either.

    To wit, I think They’re *more of both.* *More* individual and vibrant, *and* more collective and interconnected and… ‘holographic,’ I want to say. I also think They understand this better than we do, and I also think this has everything to do with how our multiverse is actually put together.

    Cause I think at the core of these debates is really our own notions of *identity,* and how we as humans *perceive and define* identity. And for me, in particular, things about identity and connection and such have been front and center in what my Goddess has been trying to teach me. :)

    “Soft Polytheism” doesn’t have to mean ‘It’s all a big divine puree.’ I do think that modern ‘eclectic’ Paganism in a way is very much and very sincerely exploring these things, as well as ourselves.

    I know that I can be comfortable both in a hard-polytheist Asatru sumbel, and in a really panentheist Reclaiming circle meant to be as inclusive as possible.

    I actually hold both views to be very true. And I think that’s also why, as much as we may debate, when it comes down to brass tacks, what works, works.

    Debates tend to polarize, but it’s important to remember that a given sense of theology isn’t *limited* by the ‘most offensive’ or ‘least careful.’

  • Bookhousegal

    Anyway, that’s a long one. My perspective on this may come from being a bit more Fae-touched than is baseline, but I think much of what we wrestle with on these issues is mostly about our own sense of *identity* while having a human experience: we both long for stability and strong identity, and tend to resent it when we get too much and feel constrained against changing.

    Some long for eternities, both in ourselves and the Gods, and some would consider any unchanging eternity a terrible sentence. Probably everyone has a bit of both.

    One thing’s for sure: half our conversation with the Gods is *us.*

    And we have identity crises, a lot. :)

  • Jacquie Georges

    Wow: I agree with Todd Jackson on this, as well. Through the correlation of Abraham Faith is an umbrella term for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All are connected as being descendents of Abraham. Each have their own ritual, text, holy days, and names for one God. Within the “grouping” they’re mini groupings (denomination and branches) with their individual ritual, text, holy days, ect. Similar to the ancient Pagans of Rome and Greece—pending on the region there maybe name changes, different pronunciation of names, ritual, holy days, ect.

    Excellent point, Todd!

  • http://twitter.com/patheos/status/23098742713 Patheos

    The challenge of true interfaith work for Pagans… http://bit.ly/aqWpcs

  • http://twitter.com/sgtgary/status/23132880785 Gary

    RT @Patheos: The challenge of true interfaith work for Pagans… http://bit.ly/aqWpcs

  • mamiel

    @Star

    “The Romans in particular held the Gods of Egypt and the Druids in contempt.”

    Have you ever visited Rome or Pompeii? The Romans completely adored Isis and had temples to her everywhere.

  • http://www.patheos.com/ Star Foster

    Mamiel,

    The cult of Isis was an exception the world over. The Romans called Cleopatra the Queen of Beasts because Egyptian Gods are portrayed as anthropomorphic. You can’t base Roman attitudes toward Egyptian religion on a single cult whose Hellenization popularized it, and to some extent divorced it from the culture in which it originated.