John Piper: Women Not Suited For Most Jobs In The World

John Piper: Women Not Suited For Most Jobs In The World August 24, 2015

NO GIRLS ALLOWED Red White Warning Sign

Pastor John Piper, a leading figure in Reformed Christianity, was recently asked the question: “Should women be police officers?” He answered the question on his podcast, Ask Pastor John, in Episode 661. His response wasn’t surprising, but what was surprising was how far he took the concept– one that is dangerous, and one I pray my teenage daughters never hear.

Piper begins his answer where he should have ended it:

 “My sense is that it is unwise to make a list of women’s jobs and men’s jobs. There is simply too much diversity and too much flexibility in how many jobs there are and how the jobs are done and what the very relationships with men or women are in all the various jobs. It just won’t work to try to make a list like that.”

After stating “My sense is that it is unwise to make a list of women’s jobs and men’s jobs” Piper should have said, “So that concludes today’s episode” but unfortunately he didn’t. And that’s where things get dangerous. Piper went on to explain how he thinks God-loving women should consider which jobs they can do– judging on the basis of whether or not such a job would require them to give directives to men:

“To the degree that a woman’s influence over a man, guidance of a man, leadership of a man, is personal and a directive, it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order. To an extent, a woman’s leadership or influence may be personal and non-directive or directive and non-personal, but I don’t think we should push the limits. I don’t think those would necessarily push the limits of what is appropriate. That is my general paradigm of guidance.” 

Piper goes on to explain a bit of what he means by these categories and gives a few examples, such as a female engineer who designs a roadway. In this scenario, while she is determining which direction men can drive, Piper says is okay because she’s not personally giving directives to any man in particular. However, he warns that other scenarios– those where a woman must give direct instructions to a male– would violate their sense of manhood and womanhood. He uses the extreme example of a female drill sergeant (which I had, and I was deathly afraid of her because she was a good one) and says he simply can’t see how it would be possible for a female to serve in such a job without violating the lines of gender roles.

Piper summarizes his position this way:

“So if you combine those two continuums that I just mentioned, I would say it like this: If a woman’s job involves a good deal of directives toward men, they will need to be non-personal in general, or men and women won’t flourish in the long run in that relationship without compromising profound biblical and psychological issues. And conversely, if a woman’s relationship to a man is very personal, then the way she offers guidance and influence will need to be more non-directive. And my own view is that there are some roles in society that will strain godly manhood and womanhood to the breaking point. But I leave women and men in those roles to sort that out. I have never tried to make that list.”

In the end, Piper tries to take the out of “I’d never make that list” but let’s be clear about the implications of what he’s said: “biblical womanhood” would essentially disqualify women from the vast majority of jobs today.

Where could one work, what vocation could one hold, where one wouldn’t be in the position of giving instructions to men? I can’t think of many, and certainly this position would mean that women are not suited for anything other than entry-level positions, as increased supervisory responsibility would undoubtedly include giving directives to male subordinates.

Thusly, it appears that Piper actually thinks biblical womanhood disqualifies women from the vast majority jobs in the world, unless those jobs took place inside a giant lady bubble.

And this is precisely why I will fight to protect my kids from this brand of Christianity– it is an absolutely dangerous message.

(You can find the complete transcript of Piper’s answer, here)


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  • I wonder what he thinks of Esther giving instructions to Mordecai telling him to tell all the Jews to pray and fast, and Mordecai obeying her. (Esther 4:17 Mordecai then went away and did everything as Esther had ordered him.)

  • Trevor Stoute

    Seems to me the male/female authority issue was a result of the Fall, and also was not a command by God, but rather God’s prediction of the result ..

  • Elizabeth Walton

    I have come across this mentality to the effect that a grown woman with grown children wasn’t allowed to lead the teenage youth ministry because she couldn’t be “in charge” of “men” (meaning teenage boys).
    I occasionally had teenage male students who didn’t respect my authority because I’m female. I figured that came from their cultural bias (meaning their home or dominant environment) more than anything else, but that was definitely tied to misunderstanding of scripture as they had a lot of ideas about what females should and shouldn’t be able to do.

  • Sarah Roberts

    Forget the dude who wouldn’t go to war without Deborah at his side. Deborah, a judge over Israel. But I’m sure none of that involved any guidance or directives…

  • Jory Micah

    Piper would like it if all women stayed home and did not work at all. His final goal is to push women back into traditionalism and he will misinterpret the Bible all day long to get his way.

  • Ben Arrington

    John Piper lives in such a bubble of constant confirmation bias, he can’t even see the real world implications of his insane beliefs. Has he even met a woman?

  • Gene Hill

    I had hoped he would have said that if police forces were made up of women, we would not have all the confrontational violence we see.

  • Science Avenger

    I would have thought this sort of mindset would have gone out of style somewhere between the reigns of Cleopatra and Queen Elizabeth. As far as this notion of jobs men can do that women can’t, I tell my daughter:

    1) They almost always involve brute strength.
    2) Any job that 100% of women can’t do, 99.9% of men can’t do either.
    3) The best jobs involve your brain, not your brawn, and yours is as good as any mans.

  • gimpi1

    Mr. Piper thinks women ought to be limited in what sort of work they can do. In other news, water is found to be wet…

    It would be funny if Mr. Piper didn’t have an undue amount of influence in how many people think. If this were just his personal view, well, OK. However, it’s not. His writings have a great deal of influence on some groups. People in those groups may limit their options or those of their daughters because of what he writes. That’s sad, wasteful and possibly destructive. The world needs people who can think, create, lead and develop. We can’t afford to ignore the talents and skills of half the human race because of some nonsense about how bad it is for women to lead, teach or guide.

    Mr. Piper is perfectly free to hold his beliefs and try to convince the women around him to follow them. And I (and the vast majority of women in the world) am perfectly free to ignore the heck out of him. I believe the world is better off if we do just that.

  • gimpi1

    Possibly not one he didn’t have some sort of control over. I doubt he meets many women who haven’t been pounded into the mold he has set aside for them. if he ever does, I’ll bet he runs.

  • Piper has created a God in the image of his own unloving father. That anyone still reads him or listens to him is beyond me.

  • Leanne Zeck

    So women using their God given gifts for leadership is offensive to men? I think the problem, Mr. Piper, is not women using their gifts but you and other men who are so offended. I always find it interesting that we all have to be so concerned about the ego of men.

  • Tim

    Mr. Piper and friends must have a fragile sense of self if a woman boss threatens their place in life. But there is hope for them in Jesus if they’d only look to him for their strength and identity rather than their own masculinity.

  • Herm

    What fall?

  • paganheart

    A cousin of mine used to work for the U.S. Forest Service, and some years
    ago, shortly after she took a managerial position, a man on her
    staff informed her that he could not take orders from her, because his
    church forbade women from having “headship” over men. (Not sure what church but this was in southern Idaho, which is heavily Mormon fwiw.) He told my cousin that any orders for him would have to come through her boss, to which my cousin replied: “Suit yourself, my boss is in Washington DC. And my boss is also a woman.”

  • Herm

    This coming from a patriarchal pastor claiming to represent Jesus the Christ, the King, the Messiah who never once is chronicled to have used his brute strength to win the war against those brutish swords of Jews and Romans. Jesus is never said to have picked up the heaviest sword or the lightest knife to swing against His foes to the death. Jesus is said to have used, quite effectively judged 2,000 years later, the sword coming out of His mouth, with the love to die in agony on the cross in forgiveness for His enemies, to defeat the spirit of self serving egotist warriors, more males apparently according to history than the, I guess, smarter females (?).

    I know from my errors in relational experience of no woman, especially the most physically appearing petite, who cannot wield a more powerful and effective sword directly from their mouth and/or eye than I.

    Pastor Piper was wise not to make a hard copy list but was grossly in destructive error by his choice to continue to use his sword of recorded mouth. The piper plays but I will not follow to my death. Father, please, forgive him for he knows not what he does. amen

  • musicologyman

    i think there’s some truth to what you’re pointing out. i attended Bethlehem Baptist for a little while in the mid-1990s, and it was clear that it was something of a one-man show. (The board of elders–or whatever they called them–existed, it seems, to rubber-stamp Piper’s decision.)

  • z–man

    Pastor Pier should have ended his article with: “Now go make me a sammich, woman!” ……what a douchbag….

  • musicologyman

    While I don’t know anything about Piper’s relationship with his father, his God is, in the last analysis, a cruel, unloving one. More than a few times did I find myself having panic attacks as a consequence of what I had heard him preach: I could no more measure up to God as father as I could my own abusive father.

  • Meredith Indermaur

    I stopped taking him with one ounce of seriousness when I heard him say in a video I’m linking below that a wife in an abusive marriage should be able to endure “being smacked” for Jesus. Trouble is, MANY hang on his every word, and this is a travesty.

    http://arewomenhuman.me/2010/08/08/john-piper-wives-should-endure-abuse-for-a-season/

  • Jonathan

    Piper went on to explain that Black NFL players shouldn’t play QB, as it could create serious “Biblical and psychological issues” in the locker room…

  • paganmegan

    Maybe it’s just me, but Piper comes across as vaguely effeminate. I don’t say this with the intent of being mean or to imply he’s not “straight,” but in my experience men who are confident in their abilities and in their masculinity don’t have a need to marginalize the roles and abilities of women.

  • SMELEPHANTIX

    Fun to see Christian bloggers applying BuzzFeed styles to their headlines.

  • BT

    So other than not killing people and blowing stuff up, how are Piper et all anything more than Christian Taliban?

    And yes, that’s an inflammatory thing to say, but I honestly perceive the two as being similar when it comes to gender issues. They may have no need for a burka, but women in either case aren’t allowed to be their full complete selves.

  • AndrewSshi

    But isn’t the whole point of Piper et al.’s brand of Reformed theology that to truly convert, you first have to hate God for making rules that are impossible to follow before then truly coming to understand and appreciate his grace?

  • JP

    If you had an intruder in your house what kind of cop would you want to come? A man or a woman cop?

  • Obviously Piper isn’t taking into consideration the Proverbs 31 woman. She has a great deal of influence in the work she does. It says in Proverbs 31 – 25 She is strong and is respected by the people. She looks forward to the future with joy. 26 She speaks wise words and teaches others to be kind. While this doesn’t say specific jobs, it does say she speaks wise and teaches others to be kind. Others could be anyone.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    A trained, reliable, armed cop?

  • Either. Honestly, either. What possible ramification could gender have in this situation?

  • If it were ok for women to give orders to men, you’d think we’d have at least ONE episode in the Bible where a women led a nation or troops into battle.

    Um… oh, wait….

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    Y’know, “Piper” is the name of a favorite character of mine.

    I’d kind of like to see her kick this impostor in the metaphorical ass.

  • JP

    I would prefer a man. They are stronger.

  • Herm

    … oh, come on not “The Maid of Orléans”. How could all those deceived bishops canonize a “maid” as some kind of saint? What is this world coming to???

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    I should introduce you to my kickboxing instructor.

    She wouldn’t like you.

  • Herm

    … if you are a man then clearly not necessarily between the ears.

  • JP

    How many female cops are kickboxing instructors?

  • Herm

    Sharia law Arabic: شريعة) is the body of Islamic law. The term means “way” or “path”. It appears to be not all that different than Pastor John Piper’s christian way. But, then again, he is a male authority figure representing the faith of my birth. I guess things aren’t always as they appear to be. Maybe, I should take his word for it and not my contradicting wife. …. Sorry honey! No, wait, you are right, I was just being childishly facetious. Love you!

  • I was thinking of Esther and Deborah.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    Probably rather few, since that’s, y’know, a different occupation.

    If that’s the best argument you’ve got, I’m going to sit over here, laughing at you.

    And then I will forget about you.

  • Herm

    … as many as needed to teach you a lesson.

  • Herm

    you’re good!

  • JP

    about what?

  • Even if someone were to grant this point, is your impression that policemen deal with intruders by having a bench pressing contest?

  • JP

    Just pointing out that there are significant differences between men and women physically. Men by nature are stronger women. Even the sporting world recognizes this.

  • JP

    I would prefer a man because of the strength factor. I think most people would including women.

  • Herm

    About the physical strength found in leverage applied by a much more superior smarts of a woman than you are displaying at this moment. If you are a man I would suggest manning up before an actual lesson begins. I say this from experience.

  • Herm

    You clearly do not know most people.

  • JP

    Nonsense. Men are stronger than woman physically.

  • JP

    Go ahead ask people this question. The people I know would agree with me and that includes women.

  • Why would that be relevant? Do you think the cops would show up and get into a fistfight with the intruder or something? Are you imagining them carrying heavier guns?

    I honestly cannot fathom an intelligent person having a gender preference in this situation. If you were like, “Who would you rather have pulling you out of an alligator’s mouth,” then yeah, I could see maybe people preferring men in a very general sense.

  • When are you going to kick Ronda Rhodes’ ass? Just curious.

  • Herm

    If you jumped right over “leverage” and “superior smarts” then I rest my case. It’s been fun but dealing with pretending intentional stupidity bellowed in authoritarian fashion has its limits and you have exceeded that limit. Bye … for now

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    In that case, are we limited to human cops?

  • I would prefer RoboCop in that situation.

  • JP

    If there is going to be some violence then I definitely would want a man. How many female cops did you notice at the Ferguson riots?

  • Connie OI

    Piper and those of his ilk make me sick. I just can’t even say anything else.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    Indeed. Androids, Vulcans, Jedi, various X-Men…so many options!

  • BT

    I suppose I have an innate suspicion when one fellow’s “way” happens to benefit him at someone else’s cost. It would seem God/Allah has designed the world conveniently in his favor.

  • JP

    So do you think that the sports world are bigots for not having co-ed sporting events? Something like men vs women in various sporting events like baseball, basketball, boxing, tennis or wrestling. Why don’t you think we don’t see these things happening if men and women are essentially the same?

  • Herm

    You need say no more. Thank you for piping in here!

  • BT

    Answer: an armed cop.

    Required equipment:
    Training
    A firearm
    Bullet proof vest

    Equipment not required:
    Penis

  • JohnathanA

    Piper does not speak for anyone other than his warped sense of self.
    Women are capable of doing anything they put their mind to and they do it with intelligence.

  • Herm

    … until we get to Matthew 7:12 and we have an entirely different God willing to die for the world They designed … as They would have someone die for Them … equally male and/or female.

  • I don’t know how many female cops were at the Ferguson riots. Do you have stats on how many women cops vs. # of women cops on the force were in riot control vs. that same ratio to men?

  • JP

    They should be able to play in the NFL. Right?

  • JohnathanA

    Women’s History is more than the sum of its outstanding players: Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony, Sacagawea, Helen Keller, Amelia Earhart, et al. These women enjoy a firm place in society’s collective consciousness. As cultural icons, they represent firsts or standouts.
    The women who settled the West and provided food, worked in the fields and in the home, fought alongside their men while raising children are prime examples of strong women.

  • JohnathanA

    Physical strength and intelligence are not always the same.

  • JP

    I agree. However, there are limitations for both sexes.

  • Yes.

    I think that jobs have qualifications, and if a woman meets the qualifications for a job, there is no particular reason why she shouldn’t be a candidate for it. If, statistically, men tend to qualify more for certain jobs and women, others – that’s fine, but gender itself doesn’t need to be a pre-requisite.

    If a woman can put up the required football stats, she should be allowed to play in the NFL. There’s no reason why she shouldn’t be. It’s just tradition and institutionalized sexism, really.

  • BT

    Exactly.

  • Herm

    Careful Johnathan, JP knows no limitations for putting his foot in his mouth to inflame the otherwise constructive and productive righteous for the whole of mankind.

  • JohnathanA

    I gathered!

  • JohnathanA

    There are limitations between individuals, man or woman!

  • VisionaryJax

    LOL Ben — you missed one of the best moments in Piper’s answer where he considers the postman at the door and how he relates to the lady of the house — not as a husband, but he is still a man … What the?!

  • JP

    I agree that in most cases a woman should have as just much right to a job as anyone else is if she is qualified. However, there are some jobs that require more physical strength such as fire fighters. Who would you want carrying you down a ladder? A man or woman?
    It would be dangerous to mix sporting events up at the professional level. Especially in contact sports. 99% of the women would get hurt.
    I don’t think any woman could play in the NFL. They just are not strong enough and it would not be fair for the woman.
    What is going to be interesting is to see if some transgender guy wants to play in female sports. This is going to cause some serious problems.

  • Herm

    … Renée Richards …

  • And in this situation I might prefer a woman who has some emotional intelligence and may be able to quiet the event rather than exacerbate it with a physical response.

  • JP

    what about her?

  • JP

    What about sporting events? Should we have men playing against women and would that be fair?

  • JP

    I don’t know. I don’t remember seeing any in the pics I saw.

  • christianpundit

    Young policewoman lauded as a hero in China after fighting off violent robber wielding 2ft machete with her BARE HANDS in five-minute struggle, April 2015

    A Chinese policewoman fought off a machete-wielding thug with her bare hands, despite sustaining several wounds in the process.

    The unarmed 22-year-old, Cao Yu, held off the man in a terrifying five-minute struggle in a public square in Guizhou province in southwestern China earlier this month.

    The man in his twenties, who was holding two knives, stabbed her in the shoulder after she confronted him while on patrol, reported the People’s Daily Online.

  • christianpundit

    Why would women have to play against men in the NFL? Why couldn’t women have their own football legaue and play against other women? As far as cops go, physical strength is not always a determining factor in being able to perform the job, so that was a stupid question or point for you to bring up

  • christianpundit

    I don’t think most people dispute the fact that most men are physically stronger than most women, but that’s not the point. Further, should we have a case where a woman is physically stronger than most men, why not permit her to have whatever job it is we are talking about?

  • christianpundit

    If a woman is capable and competent for whatever position or role we are discussing, why not allow her to serve in that position, JP? That is the question. Barring women just for being women or barring all women across the board from a particular role or job because most dudes have bigger biceps than ladies is unfair.

  • christianpundit

    I just sent you the link to this page from Twitter, Tim. I didn’t realize you had already seen it, sorry!

  • christianpundit

    The fall of humanity into sin, as recorded in Genesis, when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.

  • JP

    Good for her. Would you want your daughter to be a cop?

  • Lapequenafuriaparlante

    I personally don’t care, as long he/she knows what they are doing and they can kick the intruder’s ass

  • christianpundit

    I don’t have kids. Jesus was a single and celibate adult, and Paul said in 1 Cor 7 it is better to stay single (and hence childless). I don’t have a problem with women being cops or doing whatever other job they want to do, if they are competent at it.

  • JP

    Do you think it would be fair and wise for a woman to play in the NFL?
    Strength does play a big role in being a cop. It certainly is an advantage.

  • peterhamm

    “Thusly, it appears that Piper actually thinks biblical womanhood
    disqualifies women from the vast majority jobs in the world, unless
    those jobs took place inside a giant lady bubble.” Laughing coffee through my nose right now…

  • JP

    If women are capable to play in the NFL then why don’t we see them playing?

  • Would you want your son to be?

  • JP

    No. However, I would be stronger against a daughter doing it. Being a cop is dangerous.
    How about you?

  • JP

    If you did have daughter do you would be concerned?

  • JohnathanA

    You equate one man’s nonsense with the Bible?
    What about islam that denigrates women to below sheep, goats and camels; that provides half of inheritance to women; that allows their men to divorce their women with “I divorce you” and throw them into the streets; that demands women prove rape by providing 4 men as witness; and more?

  • Ben Arrington

    Right? Like, is a woman supposed to submit to every mailman now?

  • JP

    Do you think that there is no fundamental difference between a female and male cop? Do you think a criminal would look differently at a female cop as opposed to a male cop?

  • JP

    How does that follow?

  • I wouldn’t like either, but I’d want them to do what they wanted to do. Gender wouldn’t even cross my mind. Did you hear that two women are about to graduate as Army Rangers? Are the differences in strength, then, perhaps, much less than we think?

    Are you actually in favor of Piper’s doctrine? Because, as a woman studying chemistry at MIT who probably violates many of his ideas on femininity, I have some veryyyyyy strong thoughts about this.

  • Lapequenafuriaparlante

    Obviosuly because of the way that society has shaped on what a man or woman are supposed to behave or act like of course it would be different.

  • JP

    Yes I heard about the rangers. Good for them. I have also read somewhere that women cannot compete at the same physical level to be firewomen or something like that. They had to lower the physical requirements.
    I think Piper is making some valid points about men and women in the work place. Lots of men don’t respect women and this makes it that much harder for them to perform well.
    I think women are more likely to be discriminated against than men.

  • Herm

    Oh, come on now. Didn’t Jesus clear that up for you when He made it clear we were children? Do you really want a Father in Heaven who says to His ignorant struggling newborn, “Well, you fell so out you go, fend for your self!”? Can you actually hear Him say, “You ate the cookie so die!”?

    ““You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:43-48

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, please, because He is worthy.

    If you have any doubts begin your journey with Him according to:

    ““If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26-27

    Then you will know that what you hate is the traditions of your carnal fathers and couldn’t ever hate the love of your Father in Heaven.

    Love you,

    Serena Rene Christianson

  • JP

    Do you think men and women should behave differently in situations at times? For example, if an intruder comes into the house do you think in most cases that it should be the husband who should be the first line of defense?

  • We are, unfortunately. But why is the solution not to change how men think about us, rather than force us to conform to discriminating standards?

  • JP

    What does this have to do with the fall?

  • JP

    That is a good question. Part of it I think has to do with the dominance that men have in the work place for so long.

  • Jeni Martin

    As a woman in ministry this grieves me. Getting in the way of what God is calling a woman to do is the work of the enemy, not the work of a Christian, God’s people. I have encountered many attitudes like this in my lifetime. Best protocol is to ignore the opinions of man and serve God with all our hearts, NO MATTER what that means.

  • xram

    You would replace one pagan view (Piper’s hierarchicalism is based on the notion of the Great Chain of Being, an anti-Christian, anti-biblical construct which he imposes on the Bible, perhaps without even knowing it – google it) and replace it with another pagan concept, namely, the epistemological autonomy of human reason. The only way to destroy the Piper-Grudem view of hierarchy is to BEGIN with the inerrancy of Scripture. Otherwise, you have no worldview base to attack its presuppositions.

  • Terri

    Piper’s masculinity/femininity is natural and God-ordained, and yet, incredibly fragile and needs constant propping up. Which is it?

    Note that the vast majority of propping up is done by women for men. It means men are weaker. In that economy.

  • Terri

    Both research and many male police officers will tell you that women officers are better at calming a situation down and handling it without violence — while not being any less skilled at handling the violence. They’re not better officers, they’re just different in a general way. I wouldn’t care at all whether a man or woman officer came to my aid.

  • Terri

    They didn’t *have* to lower the physical requirements. They just did. The Rangers didn’t lower their requirements, however, and two women still succeeded. If they can succeed at earning their Ranger tab, they’re more than capable of becoming a firefighter. We have many women firefighters in our local area and they are hardworking, professional, strong, and well respected.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    The only way to destroy the Piper-Grudem view of hierarchy is to BEGIN with the inerrancy of Scripture.

    I lol’d.

  • JP

    Do you think that the physical standards to join the fire fighters should be lowered so more women can join?http://www.newsmax.com/McCaughey/Homeland-Security/2015/05/05/id/642647/

  • Lapequenafuriaparlante

    It depends, in my case am not married and I don’t own any type of gun. But if I was married, I would have my husband go first since physically he’s stronger.

  • Lapequenafuriaparlante

    But if I was trained on how to use a gun or something and if my husband wasn’t, I would probably do it.

  • Herm

    … but each man just can’t wait for the 70 virgins reward to begin all over again, to end up throwing their worthless carcasses into the street when they’ve lost their virginity. Just what are those men thinking with that they devalue themselves and God/Allah so?

  • Sunshaded

    We need to protect our sons from this thinking more than our daughters.

  • Herm

    amen

  • It’s kind of hard to tell in riot gear, isn’t it? Can we agree “the pics you saw” is not actual evidence of the ratios?

  • If the woman had enough strength to carry me down the ladder, I wouldn’t care what gender it was. That’s my point. If a person has to be able to fireman carry X amount of pounds, and a woman can do that, she should be able to be a fireman. People who can’t carry X amount of pounds – male or female – should not.

    If it turns out that, statistically, more men who try to become firemen can carry X pounds than women who try, that’s fine. But it’s idiotic to specify up front that only men should be firemen. That has nothing to do with their ability to do the job. That would be like me saying men can’t be accountants because, statistically speaking, women tend to be better at math.

    When I worked with a fire department in Georgia, there were relatively small women there who could fireman carry a man much, much larger than themselves down a ladder. Why shouldn’t they be firemen if they can do the job?

  • Ruthitchka

    “A giant lady bubble” made me giggle. I wish I had a high-speed “giant lady bubble” to get me to and from the office where I work!

    This John Piper fellow seems to have taken that passage about women not speaking out in CHURCH and not being over a man in CHURCH (I *think*) and wrongly applied it to all of life. I don’t know much about John Piper, so I’m wondering if he’s one of these types that don’t think daughters should be trained for any jobs or careers other than being a wife and mother.

  • Ruthitchka

    I was just thinking, “Poor men, they must be so sensitive”. I don’t need to prop up my dear husband. He is quite a character! I would hope there are other men out there whose egos aren’t so fragile that they need propping up all the time, too.

  • Ruthitchka

    Oh, darn. Does the postman always ring twice, like in the movie? Christianity in America is getting stranger and stranger.

  • Ruthitchka

    I wouldn’t care either, just as long as an officer shows up!

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Physical limitations must be considered, especially where danger to a person’s well being is highly likely. This is why contact sports are segregated. Both sexes can still play the sport though. (I dont know about American football – we have rugby here in Australia and there are women’s teams). There is absolutely no reason for this to translate to the workplace. I cut firewood with my husband. I can’t use his big chainsaw – I have a smaller one. When decisions need to be made I let him make them because he’s been doing the job a lot longer than me and I have a back injury. Nothing to do with gender.

  • JP

    Do you think that the fire depts. should lower the physical requirements so more women could be firewomen?

  • JP

    Yes.

  • JohnathanA

    My wife and I are partners in everything, each of us doing what we can.

  • VMWH

    So men are supposed to be SUPPORTED in thinking ONLY with their tiny below the belt brains? And they are to think that women are only good for servicing that tiny brain? And that is because if they cannot think with that below the belt tiny brain, in this character’s tiny brain, all men including him, by his own standards, have NO brain at all and would fall into a crumpled mass of nothingness if they had to take instructions or orders from women?
    I prefer real men to men who are that easily damaged by listening to and following the directions or even orders of women. I can’t help it if his “culture” and his poppy beat him into a wasted mass of women terror. That is his problem now.

  • Lisa Martinez

    This non-personal non-directive stuff…where is that found in Scripture? And as a mother of five sons, I’m up a creek when it comes to non-personal, non-directive things then. Once they pass 18 I guess I should just say hi and ask them if they want a sandwich?

  • VMWH

    After enough years of teaching, I get really suspicious of these guys who are always running the submission stuff on women especially if they have daughters. They make me wonder just HOW MUCH those daughters and other little girls are required to submit to at the “hands” of daddy.

  • Buhari

    I’d give anything to hear what pastor piper thinks about black men in position of authority over white men.

  • Jeanne Fox

    Many intruders are armed. Muscles don’t do well against bullets. Instead of confronting the intruder, shelter in place, have a gun in case the intruder attacks, and call the police.

  • Suzanna Turner

    Excuse the French but what the hell? So all female doctors, lawyers or upper management jobs need to only work with or serve other women. This is going too far. Ok I get why fundies believe that women shouldn’t be in the pulpit but Really? As far as I know wasn’t it women who held the purse strings as Jesus and his disciples were in the mission field? That is certainly a powerful position. In society money=power.

  • Jeanne Fox

    I saw that video. Piper should endure abuse for a season. Excuse me while I up chuck

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    I think this situation might depend on the circumstances. I would not want my husband to go without me, for instance, as he would be putting himself in the line of danger alone. Depends if there are kids that someone needs to stay with – then the most physically able should go. Last week that would have been me – hubby was in bed sick. I don’t know about America, but in Australia, you would not usually have a cop going by themselves anyway – there would be two of them (depending on circumstances – I have had a female cop out to a domestic violence scene alone. I didn’t like her approach but that was nothing to do with gender). Also, in Australia an intruder is very unlikely to have a gun.

    Both my best friends were cops and one is a big male, one a small female. Both had a reputation for being tough. The female got a rare award for outstanding service. On the flipside, both suffered post traumatic stress disorder as a direct result of their jobs. Mentally and emotionally PTSD is no respecter of persons. I’d say both were equally suited to the job, and both were equally vulnerable.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Ha ha – best comment so far!

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    I think you are deliberately deflecting from the point being made here, just to stir the pot. You could post question after question as it will just go on forever – whenever someone disagrees or answers rationally you just move on to another question. Don’t waste your time here, people.

  • No, why would they do that? But excluding women who are capable of doing the job is just silly.

    Even the women who just recently graduated Ranger training did so with all standards intact. There wasn’t a special “women’s version” or anything. There was just Ranger training and they did it.

    Did more women wash out than men? Yes, they did. But that’s not the point. The point is that women who wanted to take the training were allowed to, and the women who could graduate according to standards were allowed to.

    Now, having said that, in order to have true equality in the workplace, we do have to consider how many of our standards are necessary for all employees and how many unnecessarily favor men or alienate women. That is, of course, trickier, but also necessary, especially in places where the qualifications are a little more ambiguous than the military.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    What’s QB?

  • Herm

    … the women and Judas!

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Agree – normally I would just write him off as a whack-job. But in this case I know so many people who appear to hang on his every word. I took the same view of Mark Driscoll for the same reason, and was slammed at every turn by friends who criticised me for dissing ‘a brother’. Not one of those people acknowledged or admitted they had made a mistake when Driscoll fell from public grace. His name is just not mentioned any more.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    He probably thinks Esther was a slut usurping the role rightly that of men, like all the other nut-jobs out there do. I’ve even heard it said this that is why God is not mentioned in the book of Esther.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Just like God’s intention. The human and his ezer kenegdo.

  • bWeBaptist

    Piper did make a list. It is found in his misogynistic book Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” and begins like this: “Ministries to
    the handicapped, hearing impaired, blind, lame, retarded, ministries to the
    sick, hospice care-cancer, AIDS, etc., community health, ministries to the
    socially estranged, emotionally impaired, recovering alcoholics, recovering
    drug-users, escaping prostitutes, abused children, women, runaways, problem
    children, orphans, prison ministries, women’s prisons, families of prisoners,
    and rehabilitation to society, etc.”

  • 1PeterW

    John who? John Piper, “a leading figure in [fundamentalist] Reformed theology.” People in many, many Christian churches (Reformed and other traditions) have never heard of him, don’t feel in the least deprived, don’t see him as any sort authority (except perhaps self-appointed), and have long since gotten way past this sort of cultural eisegesis. Sorry for those who see it otherwise.

  • xram

    Obviously you are pretty ignorant of the epistemological and ethical issues at stake, and apparently the underlying presuppositions of your own worldview. In addition, there are historical and exegetical issues that you appear to have not engaged. Can you give a refutation of epistemological skepticism on the basis of your denial of inerrancy?

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    My denial of your assertion is “Every singe non-Christian who doesn’t hold the Piper-Grudem view of hierarchy”.

    Since that includes me, my very existence makes your statement laughable. Prove I don’t exist, and then we’ll talk.

  • FLRealist

    Given the brain damage NFL players have experienced over the years, maybe men shouldn’t be playing either.

  • xram

    You do seem to be quite stuck in the quicksand of irrationalism. Your denial is not even a complete sentence. Say something that is coherent, at least, so I can respond to it. The fact that you deny Piper’s position is light years away from having a rational argument against it. Now, I can pretty well show that his view of women flatly contradicts the worldview of the Bible. But I think that would be a waste of time in your case, since you don’t really care what the Bible says. Fair enough. I wouldn’t expect a non-Christian to care. What I am interested in is how you would defend an egalitarian view based on whatever it is that you do believe about the nature of reality. I can hardly give you an answer without knowing that first. Although I will say, if you fall in the atheist camp, then go back and re-read Hume, and then prove to me that you DO exist. Have fun.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    You’re entirely right that it’s a waste of time! But hey, what’s time for?

    Why would I need to use full sentences? Your point is almost self-refuting. Unless of course you meant the inerracy of something other than the Bible. Cheese, maybe?

    As to my religious proclivities, I’m an ordained Discordian pope. I mean, those two things are entirely unrelated, but still. I’m pretty sure proving I exist would be heresy.

  • Blake Cannon

    Are you serious? This is a rediculous statement. You have obviously never listened to any of his messages or read his books.

  • Blake Cannon

    This is just slander and it is not called for. You have gone way to far.

  • 3LOL

    If their penises don’t get worshipped they might turn into vaginas

  • JohnathanA

    You know God, do you?

  • 3LOL

    Was he fired? I can’t imagine her allowing a subordinates who wouldn’t do what she said to remain on staff even if her boss was male. Plus, I highly doubt a man in Washington DC is going to want to take time out of his day to send specific orders to another part of the country to one specific underling not in his direct supervision. It would disrupt the hierarchy

  • JP

    When people are ignorant they say all kinds of nonsense.

  • JP

    that is true. It is insane. To think how much these guys make for something that is totally useless for life is mind-numbing.

  • LadySunami

    No, I’d definitely prefer the most reliable cop, whatever their gender.

  • LadySunami

    That is true. Like this one guy who thinks strength is the most important attribute for a cop to have, not being trained and reliable, and who believes that intersex individuals should get “fixed,” eg. have their gentiles altered involuntarily.

  • louismoreaugottschalk

    Yes!

  • JP

    Where did I say that “strength is the most important attribute for a cop to have, not being trained and reliable”?

    Where did I write that “intersex individuals should get “fixed,” eg have their gentiles altered involuntarily”?
    You must be public schooled.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    That’s an odd comment to make. Do you ask everyone that?

  • LadySunami

    Uh, have you actually read the Bible?

    There are many places within the Bible where women are treated as property, belonging either to their fathers or their husbands; property that can even be bought and sold (Two Examples: Exodus 20:17, Exodus 21:7). The law for divorce you mention was not invented by Islam either, it come directly from the Hebrew Torah, aka the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 24:1). As for rape, according to the Bible if the victim is not betrothed she must marry her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:2829) while if she is betrothed, and lives in the city, she willed be killed along with her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:2324).

    Before you accuse me of taking these verses out of context, please consider the source you obtained your information about Islam from. How do you know they are not taking verses of the Quran out of context? Why do troublesome passages and misuse of Biblical scripture not reflect poorly on Christianity, while similar troublesome passages and misuse of the Quran somehow prove Islam evil? Seems more then a bit hypocritical to me.

  • Falken

    I would prefer the cop with better aim. And the one more likely not to shoot me.

  • LadySunami

    Where did I say that “strength is the most important attribute for a cop to have, not being trained and reliable”?

    You didn’t say that one directly, you simply heavily implied it.

    JP:

    If you had an intruder in your house what kind of cop would you want to come? A man or a woman cop?

    Betwixt-and-Between:

    A trained, reliable, armed cop?

    JP:

    I would prefer a man. They are stronger.

    B&B indicated she would prefer a trained and reliable cop. You responded by stating you would prefer a strong cop. The implication is you prioritize strength over training and reliability.

    Answering the following question will help clarify:
    If you could choose between 1) a stronger male cop or 2) a female cop who is weaker but also better trained and more reliable, which would you choose?

    —–

    Where did I write that “intersex individuals should get “fixed,” eg have their gentiles altered involuntarily”?

    Uh, right there in the post I linked to…

    JP:

    If a person has a male sex organ then that means they are a male. If a person has a female sex organ, then that means they are a female. If a person has both then they need to get fixed.

    If a person has two varieties of genitalia, you say they need to be fixed. (Not that they should have the option of surgery if they want it. You said they need surgery.)

    I’m guessing you didn’t mean to use the same word used to describe removing reproductive organs from pets, but even if you had used a different word, you were still talking about removing people’s reproductive organs.

  • Wow JP really is a douche isn’t he?

  • LadySunami

    Indeed.

  • Origen17

    I think your criticism is taking it a little too far. You may not agree with him, and he isn’t advocating laws that impose such beliefs on society, but he is certainly free to vote for such laws if they were proposed. In this podcast, he is simply giving his honest answer to someone asking him for his opinion. They don’t have to agree either. There is nothing “dangerous” is speaking an opinion, which he himself acknowledged was a “dinosaur” belief. His *point* was to try to guide Christian women based on a principle. While it may not be universally applicable, it might be applicable to a particular person, depending on the Holy Spirit’s confirming that with them (or not.)

  • Herm

    Dan, really, your honest opinion is taking your criticism a little too far. The Holy Spirit, the Bible, most hearts and most minds do not believe there is nothing “dangerous” about PASTOR Piper speaking this opinion. Does Sharia Law sound like the Spirit of Truth you know? Criticism is what we depend on in the USA to deter such opinions as this self declared representative of the Prince of Peace from being enforced on women and men.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    …I did not until now realize that I shared initials with a bed and breakfast. XD

    But yeah, the douchbag is strong with that one. Probably intentionally. But certainly not creatively or memorably…

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    Probably.

  • Origen17

    I hear what you’re saying, Herm. And I disagree with Piper, for the record. I mean where would we be without Judge Judy? LOL And as Christians, we are all representative of the PoP, Piper included. And we are all imperfectly trying to be a light to others and discern the will of God, Piper included.

  • Herm

    Thank you Dan.

    It is important that we remember that being a disciple of Jesus does not mean we’re to be warm and fuzzy. We wield the same sword as does our Rabbi, out of our mouth and not from a shield on our side. We have to hate religious tradition when it disagrees with the commands of our Lord Jesus to love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul and with all our mind and that we must love our merciful neighbor as our self. We must in everything do to all others as we would have all others do to us.

    I, myself, would not have others intimidating, manipulating, or subjugating me and I will not intentionally do so to any others of the whole body of mankind. By Jesus’ example and the other of His prerequisites to be His student I have picked up my cross that I will die that others might live. This includes for my enemies who might learn to join in the Spirit of God whom I have learned to love even in their ignorance. Much more than that it includes everyone who is different, but of the same species, as me. That is everyone of mankind.

    Pastor Piper, many other Christians and many from other spiritual religions misrepresent the true will of our Father as Jesus taught us by His example and as the Word. The will of our Father in Heaven is for us all to be His children and thereby siblings to His only begotten Son. Jesus’ commands above sum up all the Law and all the Prophets who truly have represented the will and love of our Father, which Jesus did perfectly and Pastor Piper does not.

    Love you Dan! Thanks, again.

  • LadySunami

    Now, I can pretty well show that his view of women flatly contradicts the worldview of the Bible.

    Please do.

    I’m sure it contradicts certain portions of the Bible, but only because the Bible is a composite of many different works by many different authors, who often had differing opinions. There are plenty of portions that agree with him just fine.

  • Brandon Roberts

    i don’t agree with this but he’s just one crazy guy

  • Oh good grief John Piper, let’s pray you never need surgery from a leading female surgeon. But then again, maybe she could just slip in a little vial of the sacred feminine, and when you wake up, you will want to write beautiful poetry more than obstinate and patriarchal theology…

  • Nomad

    I met Piper’s wife in China, she was travelling the highways and byways with another female hero of mine retracing the steps of an early female missionary to China for a book she was writing. She and the other lady spoke to us (a large mixed group) about the incredible experiences they were having and the older Chinese believers they were meeting who came to Christ because of this woman’s ministry. Piper’s adopted daughter is currently in college earning a degree in counselling (his adopted African-American daughter). If this is the picture of downtrodden women, then sign me up. Better that then what Tony Jones has done to his abused ex-wife.

  • Nomad

    Are you serious? Have you read ‘Bloodlines?’ Or have you heard Piper speak on racial reconciliation and how he actively pursues African-Americans to be leaders in his church? Or how at 50 he adopted an African-American baby? Such heart breaking misrepresentation over a man that has done more to champion diversity in the church then anyone else I can think of. And you, what have you done?

  • MomofTwins

    I’m sure you perceive no danger. After all, you’re a man. These principles have never been used to keep men from pursuing careers, education, property ownership, or voting. We’re less than a century removed from them being used on women by law, never mind theor continuing social use. And considering the context and content, this was much more than general advice. It’s astounding to suggest that Piper and his cohorts don’t actively try to push all of society to live by their rigid gender dogma. He can say he doesn’t have a list all he wants, but that’s just because he never wrote it down, not because his “principles” don’t inevitably dictate one.

  • Abhilash George Kunnummel

    I think the article is meant to target Johnpiper. The reader is brainwashed with the red coloured graphic and then reads it in a way the author wants to take them .If one reads only John Pipers part ,you wont feel it thta extreme. I think the author wants some sensation for the blog.

  • This is a key and intriguing dynamic in certain quarters of evangelicalism: the same things that God established as eternal and foundational to the created order are also the most easily threatened and destroyed things needing constant protection.

  • The inerrancy of Scripture is also an autonomous concept of human reason. You have to assume it a priori before coming to Scripture.

  • Oh you exist, just as a being of pure irrationality. Enjoy your completely random ethics!

    (that’s a joke)

  • Nomad

    as were my thoughts. The author’s other articles similarly vie for attention with either self promotion or fault finding…

  • Darach Conneely

    How can any male pastor bind women with rules based on ‘created order’ if he doesn’t work in horticulture tilling and keeping it? Gen 2:15.

  • JP

    So you lied. I didn’t say those things.

  • VMWH

    Barak

  • VMWH

    Jim Jones syndrome.

  • VMWH

    Male egos are so often so very very fragile, you know. Piper seems to understand that he and other such men are such frail subjects that we tough women MUST pretend to respect them.

  • VMWH

    Most women are not stupid enough to play tackle football on that level and risk concussion caused senility. Why is there still NFL football after we know what it causes?

  • VMWH

    Playing tackle football now after all we have learned about the brain damage it can and does cause to so many players is dumb.

  • VMWH

    I would use a cast iron skillet. It is bigger and could also work as a shield.

  • JP

    Are you saying you don’t respect any man?

  • JP

    That is a very good question. Would you play if they paid you $10 million for a year?

  • paganheart

    As I recall, she made it clear she was not going to tolerate insubordination and gave him a written reprimand, and he put in for a transfer to another office. But it took a few months for the transfer to go through, so she was stuck with him for in the meantime. No one was really sorry to see him go. In theory that kind of behavior should get you immediately fired, but it is not always so easy in reality, especially when working for the Federal government.

  • lady_black

    I sure hope he never needs a nurse. Nursing direction is based on position, qualification, and education. Thus a great many women give orders to a great many men, and I don’t have time to genuflect to his penis before ordering someone to bag him.

  • VMWH

    Note the 4th through 9th words I used. Perhaps you can understand that and I can respect you.

  • VMWH

    Would you suicide if I paid you $10,000,000 a year? And the answer to your question is that I am not suicidal so no. I would enter Publishers Clearinghouse to get $10,000,000 for my life, but only on the internet. I would not waste a stamp on it.

  • Lapequenafuriaparlante

    You could use RAID to blind those mofos

  • JenellYB

    I entered the work force in the mid 60’s, when the effects of the Civil Rights Act had begun rippling through society and the work place. Most people think more about the effects that had on people of color, not much attention is given to what it meant for women.

    My first real job was with a national chain of convenience stores. Previously, the only women that had been employed to work in the stores were a few wives of male store managers, and even they were not allowed to work alone or a shift with another male employee other than their manager husband. So there was still a good bit of conflict going on over women moving into jobs that had previously been restricted to men.

    As some women began to move up into positions of authority over men, asst managers, store managers, and even as just being the experienced employee charged with instructing new trainees, there was definitely conflict, and it wasn’t unusual for male employees to take offense and refuse to “take orders from a woman,” or work under a woman of higher authority than themselves. To that companies credit, at least the district in which I worked, upper management fully supported the women employees in such conflicts, and men that objected faced the choice to get with the program or not work for the chain.

  • paganheart

    I once used a cast-iron skillet to scare off a punk kid who was trying to get into my condo. (Punk kid who was merely too drunk to realize he was trying to get into the wrong unit, but still….)

  • simplymagic

    That giant lady bubble is sounding better and better all the time…

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    Why, thank you for noticing! *bows elaborately*

    Random ethics are the best ethics. For instance, I feel that it’s an ethical requirement to add googly eye to anything that lacks a face.

  • simplymagic

    “I’m pretty sure proving I exist would be heresy.”

    I think I just fell in love with you.

  • simplymagic

    Do you think a criminal would look differently at the barrel of my shotgun in their face because of my vagina?

  • Leanne Zeck

    For that very reason, I cannot understand the support for this theology or for Piper among men. It makes them look a whole lot weaker and fragile.

  • Leanne Zeck

    I disagree. First of all, I did read just the highlighted parts of the article which quoted Piper–and I am very offended by Piper’s theology and statements. I have read Piper before on his view of women in leadership roles and they are extremely offensive to me. So please stop dismissing the people who agree with the author’s assessment of Piper as brainwashed. Perhaps you don’t find Piper’s views extreme but for those of us who have been told to be quiet, not use the gifts God has given us, and never be in leadership over a man–well, Piper’s words are oppressive. I have been held back for decades by words like Piper’s. Thank God for people like Benjamin Corey who will take a hard stand against such oppressive views.

  • Leanne Zeck

    I am not called to be Piper’s wife or do the things Piper’s wife does. For me to live out a life like Piper’s wife would make me downtrodden and oppressed. That is not who I am or who I am called to be. I am called to be a pastor. I am called to teach and lead God’s people. Anything outside of that would be disobeying God and I would be downtrodden and oppressed. So just because Piper allows his wife and his daughter to work in some areas does not mean he gets a free pass to declare that women should not be teaching or overseeing men. He doesn’t get a free pass to poorly exegete Scriptures. He doesn’t get a free pass to determine that God would not use a woman in a manner he deems unfitting.

  • Herm

    Armed with the words of Christ as chronicled in the New Testament below read the full text of this discussion as chronicled as the words of PASTOR John Piper that have been listened to by over 130,100 people. It is not John Piper but it is the pervasive spirit exposed by his words that is targeted. You can be skeptical and whimsical in your judgment but if you really care read this whole offering to your thoughts before you continue, then I would like to hear your thoughts and feelings …

    “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” Luke 11:52

    “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.” John 5:39-40

    “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you. I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you.” John 14:15-18

    “In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.” Matthew 7:12

    “Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”” Matthew 22:37-40

    Should Women Be Police Officers?

    August 13, 2015

    by John Piper

    Topic: Biblical Manhood & Womanhood

    Series: Ask Pastor John

    Audio Transcript

    Beth writes in, “Hi Pastor John! I’m a woman who enjoys being a woman. I have no desire to be a man, or to compete to be better than men at being masculine. For a couple of years now, I have felt drawn to police work as a vocation. I am unmarried and, should I become married and my husband object, I would discontinue work as a police officer. At this point my question is a question of principle: Can a single Christian woman, who is a complementarian, become a police officer?”

    I love Beth’s spirit and I hope I can be of help without telling her what she should do.

    Here is how I have approached these kinds of issues, because police officer is just one of so many questions that arise if you want to be a godly man or woman and walk in paths of relationships with the opposite sex that are pleasing to the Lord. And I have tried to wrestle with the Scriptures which is, I hope and pray, my final authority in these matters. And I have come up with a general definition of what I think the heart of mature manhood and the heart of mature womanhood are. And then I have argued these and spelled them out in a little book called What’s the Difference? And these are really foundational for me and they helped me answer a lot of questions.

    Let me give you the definitions and then try to show how they apply to this question. At the heart of mature manhood is a sense of benevolent responsibility to lead, provide for, and protect women in ways appropriate to a man’s differing relationships. The postman won’t relate to the lady at the door the way a husband will, but he will be a man. At the heart of mature womanhood is a freeing disposition to affirm, receive, and nurture strength and leadership from worthy men in ways appropriate to a woman’s differing relationships. I take a whole book, a little book, to unpack those two definitions.

    Now in the home, the Bible makes plain that these definitions imply a leadership role for men that bear the burden of loving and leading the wife like Christ, and that in the church that men bear the responsibility to lead the church as elders. But what about outside the church in thousands of possible roles that men and women may fill in society? My sense is that it is unwise to make a list of women’s jobs and men’s jobs. There is simply too much diversity and too much flexibility in how many jobs there are and how the jobs are done and what the very relationships with men or women are in all the various jobs. It just won’t work to try to make a list like that.

    So instead of a list of whether policeman is on the man job or the woman job list, instead of a list, I have tried to provide guidelines for men and women who sincerely want to be submissive to the Bible. And that really is the key. If a person approaches this question and just says, “I am going to do what I want to do,” then I don’t have much to say to them on this score. But if the aim really is, “Does the Bible have something to say here at the root level of my manhood and my womanhood that would affect the kind of work I do in relationship to the opposite sex?” then I want to submit to that and go for it, because that would be God’s best for me.

    So here is one possible set of criteria that I have tried to develop over the years in assessing which roles are appropriate for men and women and which aren’t. It seems to me that all the acts of influence, guidance, or leadership between men and women can be described along two continuums. And I will mention these and then show how they apply.

    There is a continuum from very personal influence, very eye-to-eye, close personal influence, to non-personal influence. And the other continuum is very directive — commands and forcefulness — directive influence to very non-directive influence. And here is my conviction. To the degree that a woman’s influence over a man, guidance of a man, leadership of a man, is personal and a directive, it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order. To an extent, a woman’s leadership or influence may be personal and non-directive or directive and non-personal, but I don’t think we should push the limits. I don’t think those would necessarily push the limits of what is appropriate. That is my general paradigm of guidance. And you can see how flexible it is and how imprecise it is. So let me give some examples.

    A woman who is a civil engineer may design a traffic pattern in a city so that she is deciding which streets are one-way and, therefore, she is influencing, indeed controlling, in one sense, all the male drivers all day long. But this influence is so non-personal that it seems to me the feminine masculine dynamic is utterly negligible in this kind of relationship. On the other hand, the husband-and-wife relationship is very personal and, hence, the clear teaching of the New Testament that the man should give leadership in the home and that she give a glad partnership in supporting and helping that leadership come into its own.

    On the other hand, some influence is very directive and some is non-directive. For example, a drill sergeant might epitomize directive influence over the privates in the platoon. And it would be hard for me to see how a woman could be a drill sergeant — hut two, right face, left face, keep your mouth shut, private — over men without violating their sense of manhood and her sense of womanhood.

    And I know that the world we live in has gone completely the other way on these things. So I know I am an absolute dinosaur when I am speaking these things. And I doubt that moving away from dinosaur truth has been good for the world or would be good in the long run no matter how sweeping the day is in regard to making negligible sexuality and gender issues in role relationships.

    So if you combine those two continuums that I just mentioned, I would say it like this: If a woman’s job involves a good deal of directives toward men, they will need to be non-personal in general, or men and women won’t flourish in the long run in that relationship without compromising profound biblical and psychological issues. And conversely, if a woman’s relationship to a man is very personal, then the way she offers guidance and influence will need to be more non-directive. And my own view is that there are some roles in society that will strain godly manhood and womanhood to the breaking point. But I leave women and men in those roles to sort that out. I have never tried to make that list.

    So the key is: Do they deeply want to shape their whole lives by Scripture? And we may come to different views on some roles, but that submission to Scripture is a great common ground.

  • Betwixt-and-Between
  • Warren

    “Sorry, ma’am, but he does have bigger pectoral muscles than me, so he gets to claim one article of jewelry as forfeit. Now, do you want to let him off scot-free, or should we move on to the deadlift?”

  • It’s like a bad cop movie.

    “Normally, I’d just point this gun at you and tell you to freeze, but this time… it’s personal. Let’s settle this mano a mano.”

  • RidgewayGirl

    Then the men who are unable to behave in a professional manner should be dealt with. The answer isn’t to reward the person not doing their job and to punish the person who is.

  • RidgewayGirl

    All men are stronger than all women? Huh.

  • recovering

    As a deconverted Christian I wish I had protected my kids from ALL brands of Christianity and encouraged them to be critical thinkers.

  • BP

    Actually, Benjamin, depending on how old your daughter(s) are, this would be a great opportunity to discuss these ideas. You mentioned you hoped your daughters never heard this message, but perhaps they should. Every Christian will encounter Paul’s directives about women in leadership, and therefore needs to grapple with the issue and come to terms with it. Personally, I think Paul is clear that he’s talking about church leadership, and many very good, modern, non-medieval churches employ all male leadership. Likewise, there are just as many churches employing women in leadership roles. We live in a free country and can choose which denomination we want to belong to. We have men and women to thank for that.

  • Herm

    Sad, but I understand. You can still be a child of God in the Holy Spirit taught directly by the Rabbi. You need not pick a church to learn even better how to feel and think responsibly, critically and lovingly of all others. Your kids still can learn from your example, I hope. Love you! It took a lot for you to deconvert, sorry.

  • Wasserbuffel

    Even my job as an office clerk would be unacceptable. I tell men all day to fill out forms.

  • Herm

    Personally, I think Paul is clear that he was growing in the Holy Spirit and was not consumed by the Holy Spirit. He still showed remnants of his organizational skills as a trained Pharisee. We all live as free will sentient beings in the image of one God throughout this world as one mankind. We can all choose to accept the benevolent rule of our Lord without choosing a denomination of religious practice, or nation, to govern our growing and learning directly from our Rabbi as little children one with God in the Holy Spirit anywhere. We have God to thank for that.

    P.S. Whose message do you follow; Peter’s, Paul’s, James’, Moses’ or Jesus’? They all differ as does the four canonized Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. How do you know our Brother Jesus (only if we are His disciples [students]) and our Father … through a denomination’s authority, the Bible or filled by the word of God in your heart and mind?

  • Herm

    … and your comments don’t?

  • yellowdoggie

    It’s such a coincidence that men decide what “God’s creative order” is based on the man-written books of the man-compiled Bible.

  • JDP3

    Yes!!

  • JDP3

    Did anyone actually listen to the podcast? At no point does he say
    women cannot be in those type of jobs. It seems like everyone has
    missed the point. What I hear in his message is a counter to the
    feminist definitions of womanhood and manhood. What is distressing is
    how people in the feed below are drawing swords against one another over
    this issue. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Remember?
    If we do not base our lives in scripture, then what shall we base it
    on? So much of the rhetoric I hear in Corey’s (and the people below)
    commentary is based in popular and secular movements of the day. Even
    if Piper gave a scathing critique of women in the working world, would
    this really be considered “dangerous theology?” If anyone has read the
    feed below, they ought to focus on things far more lethal: questioning
    the validity of scripture (“the inerrancy of scripture” comment).

    It’s easy to shoot from the hip and make a snap judgement, along with
    Corey. I wonder if what is at the heart of much of these gender roles
    is hurt. From the beginning men have utterly failed in their roles to
    women. It started with Adam and his passivity at the Tree of the
    Knowledge of Good and Evil. That has been brought more to the forefront
    of many men’s minds today. But things have shifted the other way now,
    and I believe many men and wrestling with what it even means to be a man
    today.

    Are women not supposed to be in leadership
    positions? Are women not supposed to be officers of the law, judges,
    engineers? Hardly. What Piper is talking about is how men and women
    interact; how they treat one another. As a male growing up outside the
    spotlight of feminism, I have no problem telling you exactly “how I am
    to behave” in regard to women. There are whole movies dedicated to this
    idea and to the idea of the strong and liberated woman. Am I
    advocating for heading back to 1950 (or further)? Not at all! But I
    wonder how quickly anyone wants to enter a discussion about how women
    can interact with men in a way that offers them respect and engages with
    maleness.

    Perhaps what is most sad about this blog and about
    all of these comments, is how dismissive of John Piper this is. He is a
    person. He is part of the Body of Christ. Is he infallible? Not at
    all. Is he the authority on roles of men and women? No, he is not.
    But he is our brother. People have callously ripped him apart and
    branded him as a dangerous theologian. It does not follow that people
    who are advocating for equality should be so inequitable.

  • LadySunami

    You serious? Here is what I said,

    Like this one guy who thinks strength is the most important attribute for a cop to have, not being trained and reliable, and who believes that intersex individuals should get “fixed,” eg. have their gentiles altered involuntarily.

    I’m not seeing any quotation marks or “you said” statements indicating that these are direct quotes.

    As I demonstrated when I did provide direct quotes, you did imply you prefer strength over training and reliability and you did outright say “If a person has both [genetalia] then they need to get fixed.”

    Where did I lie?

  • Mike

    He doesn’t say they cant? But isn’t his point that they shouldn’t?

  • Herm

    “On the other hand, some influence is very directive and some is non-directive. For example, a drill sergeant might epitomize directive influence over the privates in the platoon. And it would be hard for me to see how a woman could be a drill sergeant — hut two, right face, left face, keep your mouth shut, private — over men without violating their sense of manhood and her sense of womanhood.” Pastor John Piper

    JDP3, please go down to my response to Abhilash George Kunnummel and you will find the entire audio transcript. Ben’s quotes are direct and do reflect the tenure of Pastor Piper’s advice according to his reading of scripture.

    You quoted, “A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.” I suggest that there is no kingdom of God without the Holy Spirit uniting our hearts and minds as little children one with the hearts and minds of Jesus and the Father who are one God in the Spirit. There is only one Rabbi and only one Father and only one Instructor. Pastor John Piper is not the one. Tell a mother, without a partner, that she cannot equal all the necessary strengths that the missing dad would have otherwise offered to the family, maybe, you have. Tell a dad, without a partner, that he cannot equal all the necessary nurture that missing mother would have otherwise offered to the family, maybe, you have. If you mean by playing nice the kingdom won’t be divided then you don’t know the sword Jesus brought.

    You and I don’t have over 130,100 people listening to one podcast that Pastor Piper is teaching with authority through the counsel of Christ derived from the Bible only. There is a Holy Spirit who could have answered that particular question exactly as it pertained to the heart and mind questioning. Pastor Piper did allude to that fact but glossed it over with his authoritative blanket study of the scriptures.

    I appreciate your concern. I hope that you understand that little children of God are still little children and none are the adult authorities in the Family of God. We argue as children learning to love each other as perfectly as does our Father love us. I am voicing my relationship with our Family of God with you as a loving sibling but not as the authority over all of Heaven and Earth, our Brother can do that perfectly well without me. If I love you and know Him then I must point you to Him and not Pastor Piper, or Paul, or Peter, or James, but Jesus. Ask Him what might be destructive about the message in this podcast. Go back to listen, again, and notice how Pastor Piper struggles to answer.

    Love you and, yes, if we believe one of our siblings is leading us or ours astray we have to call it out and take it before our Lord, especially when it is falsely in our Lord God’s name and Spirit.

    Thank you for caring!!!

  • Herm

    … maybe JP doesn’t understand that “saying” and “writing” those things are inseparably the same to most of us?

  • sg

    How about discerning between the kingdom of this world, the civil realm and the kingdom not of this world, the heavenly realm?

    While I may feel sympathetic to Piper’s ideas based on psychology, biblically, he seems to wander off the path. Consider Proverbs 31:10-31 praising wives who are busy and productive in the business of this world.

  • LadySunami

    More likely he realizes on some level he’s caught himself in a bind and has decided to nitpick his way out. I’ve noticed this happens a lot with authoritarians.

  • Garp

    haha, I hear you.

  • sg

    Yeah, it isn’t natural for men to follow women. So, I can sympathize.

  • Garp

    Seriously?

  • Garp

    The article is meant to “target” John Piper in the sense that the author is calling out this ridiculousness that John Piper insists on spewing. And it is important to call out leaders with these ideas.

  • sg

    Piper just needs to read more Luther. Luther’s wife was in business as it happens.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_kingdoms_doctrine

    http://www.cranach.org/vocation.php

  • sg

    sure

  • Garp

    okay, good, I’m gonna take that as sarcasm.

  • Herm

    I have learned to drive my point home with his word of authority, “nonsense”. He has taught me so much. I am so much better off with his directions.

  • Herm

    Wait, all her husband seems to do is praise her while sitting at the city gate with the other male elders who are just sitting at the city gate. Isn’t she doing all the rest of what it takes to survive for the entire family? I sure hope all those busy elders were apart of the solution to the few remaining problems of the world.

  • ericCD

    Has John P not read in the gospels that the risen Christ instructed the women to instruct the male disciples where to go to meet him?

  • Herm

    “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. …” Matthew 28:18 … today and for ever more.

    Oh, but Luther was one of them damned to hell progressives, married to that entrepreneurial Jezebel, who just didn’t understand the divine status quo that what was good for the Pope was good for all.

    Let’s just all go back to “the garden” where everything was perfect, before we had to be so responsible to discern good from evil knowledgeably. It is so hard to conceive that we each have unique limitations of strengths regardless of race, creed, gender or sex. How are we suppose to keep track?

  • Fulgentian

    Christianity and critical thinking are not like oil and water.

  • Fulgentian

    Dear Benjamin,
    you obviously do not approve of Piper’s views, and call them dangerous, but you have not said why they are dangerous. If his view is not the Biblical view, then what is, and why? If you’re going to deconstruct someone’s viewpoint, please use a more developed critique than ‘this view is dangerous’ and leave it at that.

  • unkmonk

    Church is ridiculous.

  • But remember, they sure do “love” women! They may regard women as being inferior, they may think that women are unsuited to tough things in life, and they may seethe in resentment– but they “love” women! Their “Christian love” is strong and powerful, because clearly they’re only telling women to stop being so uppity because they “love” the women so much!

    *ugh*… just… *ugh…

  • Indeed!

  • I’m glad, though, that you’re trying harder now to do your best and have had some luck. Keep on keeping on.

  • Herm

    JP????

  • Nomad

    Well, I am not blogging, trying to be a spiritual guide to people, like the author is. It’s my observation from his posts. Self aggrandizing or mocking. It’s just his MO I guess (BTW how is my post self promoting? I am simply stating a fact of where I met Piper’s wife- I said nothing about what I was doing except where I was for the sake of context)

  • James Quinn

    Do you seriously need help in understanding why it’s dangerous and damaging message to tell women that they are inferior to men and can only hold entry level jobs? If it’s not obvious, I’m not sure Corey can help you.

  • sg

    Wow.

    I didn’t expect such an intemperate response.

    I am not sure what I said that annoyed you so.

    The articles I linked flesh out some useful ideas that are scripturally based. Piper is taking an idea to its logical end rather than going back to scripture as the full counsel and seeing that his logical end does not comport with other teachings and therefore is based on his human reason rather that biblical teaching.

    If you take the time to read and consider them, you may find some truth in those links I provided.

    I really do not know what you are talking about in the last paragraph. Are you admonishing readers to be smarter? To know more? Well, what if in our unique situation we are unable to just discern what we don’t discern? Then what? Maybe some temperate folks among us would patiently point out some sound teaching based on something more than one’s own opinion.

  • JDP3

    I’m not in any way asking women to give men approval. I don’t believe either sex needs approval of the other to become who they were created to be. I’m simply saying that the ways women and men communicate and interact are very different, and about very different things. Everyone is looking for love ultimately ( I believe), but they way in which men and women approach that is very different. I’m not asking for special treatment either. To be perfectly honest it is difficult to know where to begin on this question. What I can tell you about being a man in this culture / society is that often I feel I have to apologize for being a man and thinking the way I do and interacting the way I do. I have been schooled in how a woman needs to be communicated with; what is appropriate and what is not. Truthfully I am still deciphering this in my own life.
    Also, I’m not talking about coddling. If we’re really talking about scripture, then we need to “go to our brother” to discuss the matter at hand. That is the position of where our hearts need to be anway. Certainly there will always be disagreements among members of The Body. There are things I do not like even in my own church. This blog is pulled off of a website that is for people who subscribe to this viewpoint. It hasn’t been made the agenda of The Church. It has not been written into the church calendar. It’s easy money to pull a few lines from what someone has said and use it to inflame anger. I’m not saying either that we need to roll over and play dead when we disagree. I am saying that we need to look at our own hearts first and then engage in a respectful debate or dialogue.
    Bottom line, this whole issue takes away from the more important issue which is the message of The Gospel. And that, simply put, is that God is giving us a gift of love through the costly sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.

  • JDP3

    Thanks for the reply. Nice is not a word in my vocabulary. Kindness is. Jesus summed up all the law in two simple phrases: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and
    with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor
    as yourself.'” I don’t see a lot of the latter in much of what is going on in the comments.
    My other issue is that much of the comments are not based in scripture. In fact they are really just secular arguments in different clothes. It is plain to me that Jesus advocated for women and that there were women who were allowed to follow him in ways that were very different than the norm of the day. In fact, there are even examples in the old testament where women lead Israel. I’m thinking particularly of Deborah. I guess this debate could go on forever. I can leave it at that for now. Take care.

  • JDP3

    good point

  • Andrew Dowling

    sg is a very extremist far right wing lady from Texas. No it’s not sarcasm.

  • Andrew Dowling

    Unfortunately he has thousands of followers, including many parents who raise their daughters on this nonsense.

  • meadowhawk

    Quarterback (the position in American football that calls plays and generally has the best tactical mind)

  • Spencer Lewis

    Click bait much? The title does not represent what Piper said.

  • Herm

    Please understand nomad, that the article is on exactly what Pastor John Piper said. I listened to the pod cast and read the audio transcript. There is nothing Ben has stated that was taken out of context. There was nothing self aggrandizing or mocking. Not nearly as much this was:

    “Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.” Luke 11:46

    or this directed at the real live disciples of Christ Jesus the instructor and teacher for his flock:

    ““But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” Matthew 23:8-12

    I appreciate that you met and liked his wife. This is a credit to both he and her but it in no way reflects on what I heard him say that took women’s suffrage in this nation to overcome. I have a wonderful wife who I believe you would like too, much more so than you may me. She reflects very well on my good tastes but not how I treat her as an equal co-director in our family responsibilities. In fact, I have met the most wonderful women in my life that turned out to be grossly demeaned and abused at home.

    You are promoting your good tastes in a person you have met and mocking Ben for an article that does agree with his honest beliefs. Ben in no way has hid the fact that this blog goes a long way to support his family, whom I am sure you would like also. This is in no way any different than what Pastor Piper does for a living to support his family doing exactly the same thing at https://www.hopeingod.org/ or http://www.desiringgod.org/ .

    It is okay for consenting adults, like John Piper and his wife, to do with and to each other inside their family environment. Pastor Piper’s podcast was listened to by over 130,100 people that said women should be subservient to their husband’s leader ship according to the Bible, therefore it is God’s decree, attested to by an anointed (which he refers to himself as) representative of God.

    Ben’s article is no more self promoting and fault finding than your specific comment I responded to than Ben’s articles of observation of pastor John Piper’s saying that women according to God’s word (he means only the Bible) women “should” not be telling a man what to do because it will make him feel less of himself.

    We become vulnerable when we speak out for we are sharing what we believe different than what others believe. If we are quoting only the words Jesus is written to have said then He is vulnerable to what He said. If we make our own observation we are self promoting our value to have something worthy to share. I learn by making myself vulnerable and getting responses pro and con but I am no less self promoting by writing, “look what I think.” Ben, you, Pastor Piper and every one commenting here is self promoting unless they leave it at only a direct quote (which I do when I only offer a Bible verse or a reference to another article).

    It is our responsibility to find faults in ourselves and our siblings of Man and God that promote health for all. To leave destructive faults or potential faults to fester becomes catastrophic when 130,000 people believe God really is telling half of mankind that they “should” never direct the other half except indirectly such as in “traffic management”.

    It is late and I’m reacting badly because you, apparently a woman, are telling me I am wrong. My fragile ego just can’t take it and here I am flailing all over the place.

    I do love you, although, for volunteering to share yourself and your honest observations with us, thank you!

  • meadowhawk

    Let me put it to you this way, everyone in my family including myself, my sister, my mom, and my grandma is over 5’11” tall and everyone except my grandparents and my newborn niece is plenty capable of feats of considerable physical strength. Heck, when she was in high school and college my mom apparently would give piggyback rides to her friends while sprinting for the heck of it. I’d say I’m definitely stronger than the average man. Now, I get that not every policewoman (or policeman for that matter) would be capable of, say picking up the intruder and throwing them, but I’d expect them to be better trained than that, and quite possibly armed with a taser and/or better negotiating skills.

  • Herm

    I am sorry to have been flip in my response to you. I would guess you don’t see the humor in the last part nor that my scripture reading at first was relating to the biblical fact, trusted in my heart and mind, that there is no “Two Kingdoms Doctrine” relative to who is Lord over all now for His disciples according to Jesus and our Father.

    You are apparently from a more conservative relationship with Christ than I; as in “holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion”. To Jesus I’m just an adorable bungling little kid brother He’s taken under His wing to tutor. With Him as my Teacher, as we are one in heart and mind by the Holy Spirit, I feel free to change and innovate as He knows and I trust I am ready. I hold to no traditional attitudes of mankind in any way as we were instructed by our Rabbi through Luke 14:26 and 27. I’m not going back to before the supposed “fall” (not my or Jesus’ word) in the Garden of Eden as though that was when things were all okay with Man and God. I much prefer having responsibility for knowing good and evil with Jesus’ support to learn to be constructive and productive for all (good) rather than destructive (evil).

    Luther was a progressive who chose to lead more to Jesus as the Teacher than his church of tradition was teaching. The progress has continued well beyond the “Doctrine of Vocation” right through women’s suffrage throughout the world only a very short time ago. I had read your links and thought you would understand. Sorry for my hurried assumption regarding your comment and its meaning. Forgive me, please. my bad

    Love you and thanks for coming back!!

  • christianpundit

    No, I would not be concerned if I had a kid and he or she wanted to be a police officer or did become one. I used to be a gender complementarian and was raised to believe in this nonsense you and John Piper are peddling, which I now realize is nothing but sexism with coats of Bible verses painted on top of it to make it appear as though it’s godly and true.
    I cannot for the life of me understand why you are up and down this thread repeatedly asking people if they think it’s okay if women to do X, Y, or Z or to hold this or that occupation. The answer is, yes women can do anything they want if they are qualified for whatever it is.

  • Zinc

    No, it perfectly represents his words. Piper said that women shouldn’t give direct orders to men, which means pretty much any job above entry level grunt work, because once you hit middle management your job is to give orders to people.

    That would prevent them from filling most jobs, as there is always someone under them, and since a few of them are likely to be men, then by Pipers twisted and idiotic logic a women can’t serve that role.

    Just because he back-peddled and said “I’d never make that list” doesn’t mean its not precisely what he’s espousing. All he’s doing is shifting the responsibility of enacting his lunacy.

  • MomofTwins

    John Piper isn’t just another guy or even just another pastor. He has and cultivates a huge audience. He is trying to convert others and society to his views. We didn’t just fall off the turnip truck, this isn’t our first time at the John Piper misogyny rodeo, and we absolutely don’t owe him the benefit of every doubt that you seem to be giving him.

    And not for nothing, but I don’t want anyone who is not my doctor or my husband engaging my femaleness. I definitely don’t want to engage every man’s maleness.

  • Leanne Zeck

    So you think saying someone is fragile is disrespectful? That is what many arguments against women in leadership say about women–they cannot lead because they are too fragile.

  • MomofTwins

    No, John Piper wasn’t saying, he was just saying. He doesn’t say women shouldn’t do those jobs, he just says its problematic because ladies would be personally directive towards men. He did the equivalent of saying “I’m not a sexist, but . . .” Everything said after the first clause totally negates the first bit.

    Even if his actual words on this occasion didn’t clearly communicate his position, he has a long record of misogynistic pronouncements. Check out his words on muscular women, women giving their husbands directions, spousal abuse. . . The list goes on. In short, we aren’t being over sensitive and we don’t owe him the benefit of the doubt.

  • bluebayou3

    As with all bad exegesis of Scripture, John Piper has pulled isolated passages of Scripture to prove sweeping generalizations about gender roles. In this case,1 Tim 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

    First of all, St. Paul was a sinner like the rest of us and not perfect. He had a specific calling as Apostle to the Gentiles, and of course he was a prophet. When his teaching are consistent with all the Scripture that came before him, we can rely on him. But when it comes to his attitudes about women, Paul either ignored the Scriptures, misinterpreted them, or indulged his own personal sensibilities. Yes, Paul sometimes said things he shouldn’t (and was often self-correcting, by the way).

    First of all, there is nothing in Genesis 3 that supports the idea that Adam wasn’t as deceived as Eve in eating the forbidden fruit. It appears, in fact, that Eve was deceived, and then she deceived Adam. This would be consistent with other Bible stories about sinning men and women. Both are equally easily deceived.

    In fact, see Judges 14-16, the story of Samson. Who was deceived…Samson or Delilah? I would say that Samson was deceived and Delilah was very much in the know.

    Solomon was perhaps the wisest man who ever lived. And yet pagan women easily deceived him in the end.

    See Judges 4 at verse 17, the story of the woman Jael, and the man Sisera, the enemy of Israel. Jael deceived Sisera and so won the battle for Israel. Men are so easily deceived!

    Let’s see how women are not deceived. All of Judges 4 and 5 tells us of Deborah, the undisputed leader and Judge of Israel. She was also a prophet, and never was she deceived when God spoke to her directly. When she told men what to do, they did it…with glorious results! She was smart, she interpreted God’s law with precision, and she was never arrogant. In fact, she is the only Judge who won a war with minimal loss of life, and then went on to preside over 40 years of peace. No other Judge achieved what she did, and as we know, it was God’s preference for Israel to live under Judges and not kings. She out-performed all the other Judges, and even outpaced Solomon when compared to him faithfully (since Solomon couldn’t stay away from pagan women…who deceived him). There is no evidence in the text that God preferred a man over Deborah for that role as Judge during her tenure.

    Piper speaks of men feeling unmanly when women teach them. If a man feels that way, he is prideful and walking in his flesh, and not in the Spirit. He should humble himself and accept the teachings of a learned woman.

    Let’s remember that Paul wasn’t dealing with learned, or even literate, women when he brought the gospel to the Gentiles. These were ignorant women who were often unruly. Not so Priscilla, or Junia…whom Paul himself acknowledged as a fellow Apostle. Priscilla very likely wrote the book of Hebrews anonymously, knowing that men are too frail to receive teaching from women, even when those women are knowledgeable and anointed of the Holy Spirit.

    Gen 3:16 makes it clear that male domination over women is not God’s plan, but rather comes from the curse of sin. Jesus died to lift that curse so that no redeemed woman need ever live under male domination again. He also died so that the curse on men…the love of earthly gain…need never lead them to pridefully dominate women ever again.

  • Most self-described fundamentalists do not think Piper is fundamentalist enough for them. Fortunately, those are a small group.

  • bluebayou3

    By the way, I am a woman and a highly paid professional in the insurance industry. My male colleagues come to me for guidance all the time, and they are so satisfied with the results that they keep coming back. My own boss, a man, calls me a leader and is mentoring me to take his place when he moves on. He calls me the very best at what I do, over and above men in my field…and he’s been in our industry for over 30 years. I hold an advanced degree (I studied at Oxford University), and I have 24 years of experience myself. I learned not to be easily deceived by anyone through study, trial and error, just like men have. My gender has nothing to do with that.

  • JDP3

    that’s a fair point. I still think all of us (myself included) really need to dig into scripture to see what is really there.

  • I thought Ben implied it with the “lady bubble” and not wanting his daughters to think of women in that way. He was also probably counting on his audience to already know the toxic effects of a community that views women in this way and/or women who view themselves that way.

    He probably didn’t present a counter “biblical view,” because there is no strictly “biblical view” of what jobs women should and shouldn’t perform. The Bible doesn’t address that, so I guess the biblical view is that it doesn’t matter at all what jobs women have. So that should be our view as well.

  • Danny

    Who would have known that “the bible” backs up male privilege? Shocking!

  • MomofTwins

    Why? Because it’s been such a productive endeavor so far? My suggestion would be to concentrate on interacting with the world and interacting with men and women as people. Rather than overlaying the collection of books we call the Bible and attempting to tease out some universal truths about gender and gender relations, try to listen and relate to the people and culture actually around you.

  • Jared James

    It’s found in the part where shut up and get back in the kitchen, you’re not the boss of me!

  • Mike

    It’s hard for me to really say that Piper’s view is inconsistent with scripture. For one thing its hard to piece the different things different books of the bible say about gender roles into one clear doctrine. But the bigger problem is that it’s hard to set aside what we want the bible to say. If we were all unbiased, we’d probably conclude that the bible is simply very sexist, but we don’t want it to be sexist, and we also want it to be right so it’s hard to be objective when the very possibility that the bible might espouse something similar to what Piper says is so offensive to 21st century Christians in the West.

  • Herm

    Christine, you’ve never had a woman for a drill sergeant? Because you cannot see yourself as a drill sergeant does that mean that perfectly capable women who wish to be should not; because Pastor John Piper said to well over 130,100 people, “And it would be hard for me to see how a woman could be a drill sergeant — hut two, right face, left face, keep your mouth shut, private — over men without violating their sense of manhood and her sense of womanhood.”

    Don’t worry, you have not violated my sense of manhood by agreeing so arguably with JDP3. I might even be stronger from your directives.

    You may have missed the USA military chain of command in your service but RHIP comes with a responsibility no difference of male or female; officer or enlisted. I was no more violated by a female colonel’s command than a male colonel’s. The only difficult problem I had was remembering to reply with ,”Mam, yes Mam!” I more than once replied with, “Sir, yes Sir!” It was the habit I had a problem with and not the respect. I was only dressed down by a woman officer one time for my lack of discipline and even then not for my lack of respect.

    One element missing here that we address rather often in other threads on this board. There are dominant males and submissive males, there are dominate females and submissive females, in fact most skills, talents and gifts are distributed between human beings regardless of gender representation, some due to nurture and some nature. Who is John Piper to intimidate such a large following to deny a well defined woman with core and upper body strength to become the fireman she feels prepared and called to be by God?

    I can go on in that vein but I must personally say that a woman who is called to procreate our species requires nine months of concentrated effort just to produce a healthy newborn. Dad could take over the nurture after that but he cannot carry the baby through gestation. It only takes one male to seed numerous females in one week max. The male is less necessary to the procreation of our body of mankind. If life were purely procreation of our species then males should be sacrificed to protect the nine month gestation period from invaders. It only takes one male to germinate the entire physical body of mankind. According to the New Testament even God can handle that job to have begotten a Son of Man.

    Life is not predicated on procreation. Somehow, God knows, we split the males from the females at birth over time nearly 50/50 in our world, in my mind, so that we have contrasting help to nurture for our children to grow with the realization that true love comes in many flavors, not just a mother’s love, passive or aggressive.

    God, whom mankind is in the image of, is male and female and there is no marriage in Heaven. Genesis to Matthew 22:30.

    I do not believe any one occupies the Moses Seat any longer. When a person, male or female, poses as an anointed ruler in the name of Jesus I pass it off as they know not what they do. Hundreds of thousands of of professed Christians, baptized by pastors in the name of Jesus Christ, do not know that we have only one Rabbi, one Instructor, one High Priest and one Lord given all authority over heaven and earth by our one Father as little children of God. They do not know this because they have not been baptized by Jesus to be filled, in heart and mind, by the Holy Spirit. The same Spirit that was seen to come down to Jesus when baptized by the man, previously filled by the Spirit, John.

    This is some of what is wrong and upsetting when anointed Pastor John Piper delineates roles as if God, whom we are as mankind in the image of, is made up of black or white, male or female, feminine or masculine, right handed or left handed, passive or aggressive, … . We are potentially infinite shades of colors and no one is exactly the same as another and all are loved by our creator God whom we are like in the image of. The clear difference between God and mankind is mankind does not accept as necessary a spirit to unite the hearts and minds of all our species as one bound in love. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. I am in the Son and the Father and the Father and the Son are in me by the Holy Spirit. Pastor John Piper is not only because he has not come out of the Bible.

    Sorry, Christine, for using you to possibly developing the picture of mankind and God more than you might be ready. It is the Spirit developing that picture in my heart and mind as I write to you. I can only share what I see as a little child and I so wish I could make it as clear to you as it is to me. It is true, it is real, and, yes, it is supported in the Bible but much greater than the Bible can possibly expose it.

    Thank you for risking to stand up for your beliefs. You truly are on the path of asking, seeking and knocking and it will all be given to you as you are ready.

    Love you!

  • Mike

    The problem has I see it is this.

    1) The bible is sacred to us
    2) Gender equality is sacred to us
    3) Many books in the bible contradict gender equality

    This creates dilemma which is only solved by rejecting one of the three outright or rejecting all three of them partially. I think the trend is to rejected 3 completely, but this is the worst thing to do because it involves rejection of a cold, hard, and obvious fact. Once a person develops the ability to do that, no truth will ever hold any meaning for him. He will simply believe whatever he wants about everything.

  • Nathan Aldana

    this. hell, by this guy’s definition, my pwn supervisor and boss at work shouldnt be allowed to have those jobs because they allow them to give me orders

    which is reallyu dumb. They earned those jobs and theyre good at it.

  • Garp

    Thanks, good to know.

  • William Boyd Spencer

    Wow! Over sensitive much? Typical liberal hogwash getting offended over nothing.

  • William Boyd Spencer

    As long as the woman does not take a leadership position in the church per 1 Timothy 2. I do not care what she jobs as long as she is not endangering others. Women police officers must rely on their fire arms more often than men. Feminists may want to ignore reality, however, men have always and will always be stronger than females. Also the federal headship of the family goes to the man.

  • William Boyd Spencer

    2 Timothy 3:16 all scripture is God breathed. Paul’s writing is scripture. His failings did not cross over into God breathed scripture. 1 Timothy 3:16 is in context of the church not the secular world. Eisegesis much?

  • Jules1227

    Said like a man and “typical conservative hogwash” denying that misogyny exists. I supposed you think women should “know their place”, too.

  • Jules1227

    I guess I should have read further before replying to your first comment – boy I hit the nail on the head, didn’t I (oh, but I’m a woman, and carpentry is a man’s job, right?).

  • William Boyd Spencer

    I didn’t at first realize this is Patheos. The heretical place of worship on the net. Now that explains the hatred and disbelief of God’s word.

  • William Boyd Spencer

    I believe in the bible which is God’s perspective. Your Ad hominem means nothing. This seriously is a much ado over nothing by those who hate and disbelieve God’s word. In fact I believe that John Piper is wrong in extending this beyond the family and church. I personally would love to have Sarah Palin as president.

  • William Boyd Spencer

    How many minutes until the first scream and mental breakdown over patriarchy? lol

  • William Boyd Spencer

    Before patting yourself on the back, first you that intelligence you are so proud of to realize that 1 Timothy 2 is in the context of the church and that the man is to lead his family. A wom an doing a man’s secular job does not bother me as long as she is not asking special privileges and can safely perform her duties.

  • William Boyd Spencer

    Howevever, I wonder if you can debate without all the attacks on my character? Ad hominem is illogical.

  • Westcoastlife

    What on earth does Piper know about psychology? He claims women giving directives to men will cause long term psychological issues? What about the psychological implications of telling people whose lives were just ripped apart by a tornado that God did it to them because they deserved it? No psychological problems with kicking people while they are down, eh? But massive psychological problems if a woman tells a man to turn left at a blocked intersection. Gee Piper, thanks for looking out for everyone’s psychological well being, now try to apply that to your own warped comments on Twitter and not worry about how men feel about a woman police officer, I’m sure if they don’t like being directed by a woman, God put her there because they deserved it. Or do you not believe in the Sovereignty of God in all situations, only disasters? If you can get over the sexism, you run smack into a giant hypocrite.

  • MomofTwins

    So is using an author’s (Paul) assertion of divine inspiration as proof of divine inspiration.

  • Westcoastlife

    OK, let me help. Deborah in the book of Judges. Does that help counter Piper’s “woman can’t give direct commands” view? What about Hulda, the prophetess, teaching King Josiah directly? The Bible if full of women taking charge and giving commands, in their rare appearances. Let us not forget it was God who gave Deborah her role, so you can’t accuse Deborah of ” straining godly manhood and womanhood to the breaking point
    If you know and love the Bible as much as you claim, why would you even need this to be spelled out? Piper is not above the Bible and what he is teaching flies in the face of the roles God assigned women. So, he is basically teaching us the Bible says something it doesn’t. Pretty bad in my view.

  • Vickie Keener

    Of course you would say that . You are part of the white , straight , Christian , male problem . Christ , the root word in Christian , by definition is a liberal . If you’re going to call yourself a Christian then try acting like one . Christ showed you how . Hypocrisy is a sin too you know

  • Vickie Keener

    If you believe in the bible then you know Christ was sent here to set an example. Maybe instead of just believing in the bible , you should read it .

  • Danny Hersch

    You have got to be kidding me” I believe in the bible which is God’s perspective”….. Do you know how many differing views there are of the bible? How can you say that yours is ultimately the truth? To to top it off you said patheos is a heretical sight of false worship on the net. What are you doing?

  • Rblwalker

    U have no character sir otherwise you wouldn’t pull things out of your ass about women police officers. Luckily for humanity your kind ” much like dinosaurs and neandrathals” are falling by the wayside. Your assertions are based on old Jewish fairy tales from the iron age by a people who agreed the world was flat. I am overwhelmed by joy at the rapid decline of christianity/ignorance! Follow the streets made of gold to your mansion in the sky!

  • Cayce

    Does the fact that Deborah led in the book of Judges or the fact that Hulda was a prophetess mean that this was God’s perfect will? Certainly God used those women where men failed to do what he was calling them to do (lead and prophesy truth). God can certainly use women today who are in jobs where they are giving orders to men. That doesn’t mean that this is God’s perfect will and that the Bible isn’t clear about the distinctive roles of women and men. As long as we are justifying things by how we see them (“I am successful at my job of giving orders to men) instead of seeking to submit to God and what He tells us is His plan for us, we can be sure that many of the blessings God has for us will be missed. I am sorry for many of my fellow women for that.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    “What are you doing?” Ummm…trolling??

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    “to realize that 1 Timothy 2 is in the context of the church and that the man is to lead his family” – no it’s not. There is plenty of good scholarship on this passage and you’re way off. Try Phillip Payne’s ‘Man and Woman – one in Christ’. Or just go along with your current interpretation. No skin off the rest of our collective noses.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    I generally like your comment, but disagree on your views of Paul. Sure he was a fallible human but his words that we have in Scripture I sincerely believe are God-breathed. Paul loved women and he brought them up to the status of men: Gal 3:28 (not just about salvation as many would have us believe). The passages in Ephesians, Corinthians and Timothy that appear to ‘relegate’ women to a subordinate role have been systematically mistranslated, misinterpreted and have become the entry-point to the idol-worship that is patriarchy (aka-complementarianism). They are so ingrained in culture and the sub-culture of evangelical church life that many cannot and will not even consider the huge amount of well-researched scholarship that we have available on the real meaning of Paul’s words in these passages. They would rather keep the status quo. It suits them to do so.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Your own eisegesis is similarly faulty.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    It needs to be remembered that this is a blog post – not a series of volumes. Corey has posted other articles that certainly cover your questions, although I would have though the main answers were obvious.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Except that 3 is wrong.

  • bluebayou3

    I appreciate your comment, fbbr. But let’s consider what you’ve said about St. Paul. While I agree that he was often misunderstood, I think he also sometimes spoke out of own experiences, upbringing and culture (which was both Jewish and Roman).

    If Paul didn’t believe that every word he spoke in a Christian context was directly from God, why do you? He warned people against this, as it leads to a cult of personality:

    1 Cor 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? (The answer to this rhetorical question is, of course, a resounding no.)

    Paul also expressed opinions that he himself stated clearly did not come from God:

    1 Cor 7:25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment (opinion) as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy…

    also

    1 Cor 7:12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

    But right above this verse, he says something that is clearly from the Lord, because it is consistent with Christ’s teachings, and that of the OT, as well:

    1 Cor 7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

    Let’s turn to St. Peter, the great Apostle to the Jews and our fiery preacher of Pentecost, a disciple who walked with the Lord Himself.

    St. Paul rebuked Peter soundly in Galatians 2:11-21 for shunning gentile converts…and rightly so. Peter should have known better after receiving the vision from the Lord showing him that unclean animals are now clean, and that gentiles would now also be cleansed. Does that mean that I’m going to throw out 1st and 2nd Peter? Of course not. Peter, the anointed of the Lord, just messed up.

    The prophets spoke the Word of God directly from the Holy Spirit. There’s no other way to say it…they knew that they knew that Jesus was coming. They knew they were speaking from the Most High. St. Paul couldn’t always say that…sometimes he gave opinions that he thought would be as good as that of any other believer, “as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy”.

    Paul wasn’t just a prophet and Apostle. He was also an administrator and bishop…an overseer of the day to day operations of various congregations. That is a task that many carry out today under God’s anointing.

    Here’s another example: King David…a man after God’s own heart. Anointed as King, David’s Psalms are also full of prophecies that came right from the throne room of God. But surely we know that he was not acting as a prophet when he spoke to order Uriah’s death so that he, David, could continue in adultery with Uriah’s wife. We know this because that is inconsistent with the covenant of God with Israel, and God’s law. David sinned with his lips and a man died…yet, God’s anointing did not depart from him.

    I fear that evangelicals today have become Paulists instead of Christians. John Piper, assuredly ordained a minister of the Lord, has ignored every other passage of Scripture about God’s plan for women in order to follow every word that proceeds from the mouth of Paul. That’s exactly what Paul himself told us never to do.

  • MomofTwins

    Oh, tell us more about God’s perfect will and how an all powerful and all knowing being just had to settle for a woman to do the job.

  • bluebayou3

    There is no evidence in the text of Judges 4 & 5 that Deborah led “where men failed to do what (God) was calling them to do”. She was called in her own right because she was learned, logical, intelligent and well…called…just like all prophets and leaders of God’s people. She was the greatest of the Judges…none of the others achieved what she did. She rivaled Solomon in her wisdom and ability to lead Israel.

    Miriam was a prophetess. Junia was an Apostle. Priscilla was a Deacon and very likely authored the book of Hebrews. These aren’t “rare appearances”.

    Let’s also see how Jesus discussed a woman’s role in Luke 10:38-42. He gently rebuked Martha for her earthly concern abpit domestic life, and clearly stated that Mary’s decision to prepare for the ministry at His feet was the superior path. What Martha chose was okay…but what Mary chose was better…and she is an example for all women who have come after her. Church tradition often calls Mary “the thirteenth disciple”, and it is believed that she later became a Bishop.

  • bluebayou3

    Hear, hear! :-)

  • bluebayou3

    Very good point on Proverbs 31, sg. The virtuous wife was no scullery maid. She was an administrator of her home, a dynamic mother, an instructor of household servants (male and female, presumably), and a shrewd businesswoman. She took the profits from a home based business and bought a vineyard. Do you know what it takes to run a vineyard? No wonder she burned the candle at both ends! And in this she never unmanned her husband…on the contrary, she made him “important in the city gates”. A man is made more important when his wife does what she cares most about doing.

  • bluebayou3

    It sure sounds like she was the bread winner to me, Herm.

  • Leanne Zeck

    It always makes it easier to dismiss someone if you decide we obviously don’t love or believe God’s Word. The truth is most of the people you have dismissed with that statement do love God, love God’s word and have studied and come to different conclusions. But it is easier to dismiss others than it is to trust that God is at work even in people you disagree with.

  • xram

    Sorry, that won’t fly. Inerrancy is the view of the Bible itself. It is a revealed truth, an epistemological concept based on the ultimacy of the mind of God as the source of all truth. To accept inerrancy is to submit to what God has said about His own ontological and epistemological ultimacy. The sin of Adam was that he refused to accept the epistemological ultimacy of God’s word when he abrogated for himself the right to decide whose intepretation of the fruit of the tree was true – God’s or the Serpent. That is the point of the symbolic naming of the tree – the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. By partaking, Adam declared his autonomy from God, as the final reference point for determining truth. By rejecting inerrancy, you place yourself in the same position as Adam, abrogating what belongs to God alone for yourself.

  • xram

    My, my. You seem to be quite the expert. Tell me, where did you do your post graduate work in the Bible? I’ll be happy to refer you to some books that will take you step by step through this material. Books written by serious scholars. Are you serious enough about finding the truth to take the time to do the work required, or are you just making excuses to continue in your irrationalism?

  • xram

    Just what I thought. You diguise your ignorance with sarcasm.

  • xram

    You dodged the challenge to demonstrate how you can rationally defend the equality of men and women on the basis of your (presumed atheist) worldview. Of course, you cannot, since atheism is inherently irrational. But please give it a try. It should be quite entertaining.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    No, I flaunt my ignorance with sarcasm!

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    You presume much, darling. Quite incorrectly, I assure you.

    Besides, irrationality is more entertaining.

  • LadySunami

    So you’re saying the Bible isn’t a composite of many different works by many different authors who often had differing opinions? If that is what you are saying, I don’t need a Ph.D. in theology to call your position foolish.

    I didn’t take any graduate level theology courses, but the Benedictine brothers and sisters who taught the undergraduate theology courses at my school sure did (as they all had Ph.D.s), and both they and the sources they cited were pretty clear on the whole, “No two Biblical authors agreed on everything” thing. Of course my favorite teacher was just a deacon, not a brother, but he was still Ph.D. and a brilliant guy (his faculty page for you).

  • Westcoastlife

    Cayce, the very nature of prophecy is that prophets are chosen by God for such a time. Huldah was the prophetess Josiah called on to interpret the text. Deborah was also a prophetess, as Judges gave prophecies. If God didn’t want her to be in that position, the spirit would not have worked through her. Plain and simple. Someone cannot be a true prophet of God without the Holy Spirit of God revealing prophecies to that person. So, it is impossible to be truly prophetic and outside the will of God. Yes, one could grasp the reigns of military or judicial power without that position being the true desire of God (not that there is ANY indication Deborah did that), but prophecy is in another realm. You are either a prophet/ess of God or of Satan, there is no “faking it” like a person in a worldly position of power can. Since both Deborah and Huldah are held up as true prophetesses in their positions, then they are in God’s perfect will.

    If you ever meet someone with strong prophetic giftings (and they are rarely church leaders, but often lay people with a true gift that don’t exploit it), you will know they are speaking of Spiritual things. I could bore you with details, but both men and women prophets in my life have prophesied things about me no one knew, they had foreknowledge of things that happened shortly after that no one could have predicted and they were well respected as having prophetic gifts because they did not abuse this gift or confuse it with power.

    So, when I read about a prophet/ess in the Bible, I know that that person was able to discern things others couldn’t, even if they were wise or learned. Prophets operate in a spiritual realm, speaking messages from God, not from their own ideas or thoughts. Teachers study and then give that knowledge to others, but prophets are more like mystical message-givers who deliver a message that no one, not even they, have any earthly knowledge of. So, if Huldah was a prophetess of God, God gave her that insight. She couldn’t have pretended to have it on her own, yet actually be outside the will of God, since it is God’s message to us given through a prophet. Not a prophet’s own message. Sometimes, people only knew if a prophet was genuine after they delivered their prophecy, but the Bible has the benefit of hindsight. There is no way a true prophet can ever be outside the perfect will of God. That you think these women could be both prophetic and outside the perfect will of God shows this is an area you need to study further. Spend time on this, it will clear up some of the other issues being brought up here, like worldly leadership vs. godly leadership.

  • Westcoastlife

    You do know it has been written over and over again in the Bible, both New and Old Testament that women can and, get this, should seek to be, prophets? (prophetesses if you like gendered titles). How can the Holy Spirit that descended at Pentecost tell us God would pour out his Spirit in the last days and both men AND WOMEN will prophesy yet this not be the perfect will of God? Consider also the Apostle Paul admonishes everyone to seek the gift of Prophecy. In the early church, women stood up and gave prophecies of God to the whole congregation (Paul only said they should have their heads covered, not that they should fear threatening men’s masculinity). However much we want to get into women teaching or not, it is very clear women prophesied in the early church. Prophecy, by its nature is very directive towards the recipient. Prophecy is in the perfect will of God. This is why I find Piper’s comments quite disturbing. We could argue all day on worldly jobs, but if we use the Bible, we know God calls many women (Godly women) to be directive towards men and women in his church. Trying to cloud that fact with murky, fleshly logic is problematic.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Yes, I’d agree with all that. Perhaps the wording in your earlier comment threw me off on the wrong track (or the way I read it!). This can often be case when we are trying to be brief. I absolutely agree that many evangelicals today are Paulists: in fact I was only wondering about a week ago what Paul himself would have made of that! Thanks for elaborating.

    With all that in mind, however, there are perfectly reasonable and plausible interpretations of Paul’s words about women that complementarian evangelicals ignore as they don’t fit their worldview of male-female relationships. None of them require a male headship paradigm or a delineation of roles – even for one loath to believe that Paul may have been wrong.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    Did he really say that stuff about Black QB’s? Where?? Can you show me? or are you being tongue-in-cheek?

  • Nathan Aldana

    “believe in the bible” -Translation: I believe in a very specific interpretation of the bible and my pastor has utterly convinced me all other readings of it are hogwash and any attempt to point out that may not be true will be met with open hostility, possibly threats of violence, and pretending to “hate the sin but love the sinner” to excuse screaming invective at them. ironically, this set of behaviors makes all other sorts of christians as well as atheists or other religions have absolutely no want to associate or listen to me.

  • bluebayou3

    I agree. Paul was a person with wisdom, certainly, as well as anointing. He understood that some of his wisdom was for him alone…he recommended celibacy because he liked living that way and understood its benefits, both for the individual and the cause of Christ. But he also recognized that celibacy isn’t for everyone.

    Paul saw that women are feeling people, but he didn’t always understand women are also intellectual and career-oriented…as Mary was when she sat at the feet of Jesus instead of helping her sister Martha with the household chores. Jesus, Whom we follow, rebuked Martha’s domesticity as inferior to Mary’s endeavor to learn.

    There are passages in Paul’s writings to indicate that the Holy Spirit corrected him even as he wrote. He told women to submit to men, but then he went on to say that all Christians should be submissive to one another, regardless of gender. We are all to be lovingly deferent to one another.

    Also, when he tells women to “submit to their own husbands”, I’ve wondered if he was just teaching Gentiles not to commit adultery…”submission” may be a reference to marital sexual intercourse…meaning “don’t lie down for any man except your own husband”. He didn’t want to see men passing women around like a whiskey bottle around the campfire…which was certainly the practice in some Gentile cultures. He really did have to teach Gentile converts the very basics of godly living.

    Marriage is a metaphor for Christ’s relationship with His church. Certainly, He is our Lord, Master and Teacher. What evangelical male ministers forget is that lordship is servanthood…it is the opposite of worldly lordship. Jesus made Himself a slave to His Beloved Church. In fact, His Lordship meant He had to serve His Beloved all the way to the cross. We love Him because He first loved us. We obey Him because He obeyed the Father unto death on our behalf. He didn’t demand submission…He became submissive…and that inspired rage in some, and utter devotion in others.

  • Thank you Cornelius Van Til.

    But here’s the thing – the Bible never claims to be inerrant. And even if it does, how you can trust that claim without first assuming inerrancy?

  • Carstonio

    If we make the enormous assumption that Piper is right about “God’s created order,” it must be very fragile indeed if it can be contravened by a woman not knowing her place. Like Corey, I hope my daughters never hear Piper’s vile message.

  • Cayce

    I didn’t say or mean that women couldn’t prophesy or that God doesn’t want them to prophesy. Yes, the Bible does say that we should seek to prophesy. It is clear that God wants us all to seek Him in His Word and share what we hear from Him through the Holy Spirit with others. The question seems to be to whom and in what context a woman is to use this gift. I just don’t see any parts of scripture where the Bible calls women to be directive towards men. However, 1 Timothy 1:12 seems to specifically state that a woman is not to teach a man, but remain silent and 1 Peter 3:1-2 states that a woman who wants her husband to obey the word to submit to him so he will be won by her conduct, without a word. Also, when the Bible speaks to what a woman should do, it discusses being submissive, working at home, showing hospitality, doing good works, and caring for and teaching other women and children [Titus 2:2-5 and 1 Timothy 5:9-10].
    I am simply trying to understand what the Bible says about my role as a woman and seeking to serve Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, not trying to cloud anything with “murky, fleshly logic.” I see submission as a special way that we can reflect Christ. After all, He submitted to the Father perfectly. I honor Him by submitting.

  • Cayce

    Maybe it is more accurate to say that God uses sinners (ie., people like me who are not living according to His perfect will) to bring about HIs perfect will. This is evidence of His power. He even spoke through Balaam (Numbers 23:5) and made Balaam’s donkey speak (Numbers 22:28-30).

  • Cayce

    I was just addressing the issue of God’s will concerning women leading men…not whether or not women could play important roles, be intelligent, logical and learned or whether as a woman our first priority should be learning from and growing in Christ vs. having a perfectly run dinner party.

  • Westcoastlife

    Well, you are making verses about teaching instruct you on prophecy over the actual verses about prophecy, without giving any evidence versus about teaching supersede the prophecy verses. What we do know is that Paul tells women who prophesy to have their heads covered (1 Cor:11). Prophets stood up and uttered prophesies in the early church. 1 Cor 14 talks about prophets getting up and speaking AND convicting others of their sins. Paul goes on in vs. 39 to say: “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” (some translations use brethren, but Greek uses neutral gender, ESV totally flunks the attempt and translates it “brother” but that is not in the Greek). So, we have women prophesying in the early church and convicting people in the congregation of their sins and you are questioning God on this? You can’t hold a few off topic teaching verses up and claim women can’t prophesy directly to men. Teaching and prophecy are NOT the same gifts, not according to the Apostle Paul. Prophecy is what all people should strive towards, it is directive.

    If you want to understand the Bible, try to focus on how God wants you to follow him, not how Piper or Gurdem or any modern day person sets things up. Take the Bible in it’s entirety. Don’t let people with agendas select verses and build whole theologies around them. Women prophesied directly to men in the early church, they did it in the Old Testament. Huldah was chosen by Josiah to come and teach/reveal to him the scriptures he found. She was anointed by God.

    I’d hold versus on women not being allowed to teach very lightly, since Pricilla teaches Apollos. But, even if you believe women shouldn’t teach men. Nowhere is there any evidence, whatsoever, that women can’t prophesy to the body (church), yes including to men. Men and women did not meet in separate congregations in the early church. Women stood up, head covered, hair long (as was their custom) and convicted, encouraged and called men to follow God. That is direct instruction. The Apostle Paul and others tell us this went on in their churches. For Piper to ignore that, and claim it messes up a man’s psychology to have a woman give him direct instruction is not helpful in discerning roles women should follow.

    Jesus gives us very few “have tos” in career choices. We are to follow him, not get all caught up in gender hierarchies of any particular culture, or subculture. I lived in India for a year, following Christ there looks very different for women than following Christ here. But it is the same spirit that calls us. Your role, and mine, is to do what God calls us to, not what others tell us we should or shouldn’t do. If God told you to prophesy to a man you hardly know, so “influencing him” relationally won’t be an option, would you make an excuse to God such as “well, Piper says I can’t be direct with him, so I can’t follow you on that?” You need to realize, Jesus had pretty choice words for Martha when she tried to put “roles” on Mary for not helping her in the Kitchen but sat with the men and was learning (not a feminine role in the Middle East in 30 AD).

    If you think women should be stopped from following God and giving men prophecies from God because it isn’t their role, you may want to contemplate that Jesus isn’t a supporter of societal roles. Not even roles modern American Complementarian Christians adhere to. If you put Jesus first, be aware, the feathers you will most likely ruffle are those of the most “religious” (read, claim to follow the Bible literally) around you. But, we are called to follow Jesus, not the rules that bind men.

  • Cordel

    Interesting that those who denied Christ were men, while those chosen to discover he had risen were women. Jesus was known to spend time with women, such as Mary Magdalene and certainly treated them with respect, even telling Martha that Mary was right not to be concerned with the kitchen when she could spend time with Jesus. These verses are never those that are quoted to us.

  • Trellia

    I’d like to introduce my niece. She started karate when she was two and a half after beating cancer and earned her black belt at age nine.

  • Betwixt-and-Between

    I would enjoy that introduction. She sounds awesome.

  • R Vogel

    Now you’re going to have to start a ‘Sh%^ John Piper is wrong about’ series. This could get overwhelming!

  • Jules1227

    I was only following your lead, Mr. Spencer. However, it if quacks like a duck, walks like a duck…..

  • Herm

    William, you read the Bible, cover to cover, and yet you do not know the word of God for you do not have the Holy Spirit filling your heart and mind that you may actually know how to proclaim the Gospel.

    Ad hominem??? The only position you are maintaining is a traditional mankind speak found in their church buildings. There is no pulpit or alter in Jesus’ church. There is no cross on the wall or steeple to look at. The only crosses are those that all His students have picked up to carry as their prerequisite to becoming the Rabbi’s disciple [Luke 14:26 and 27].

    “Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”” Mark 14:49

    “He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”” Luke 24:44

    “”Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” John 19:28-30

    “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12

    “Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”” Matthew 22:37-40

    ““If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.”” John 14:15-31

    William, if you are not one with all that the scripture above speaks to and points at you do not know the Word. Please, realize that the New Testament was not written when Christians were first proclaiming the Gospel. The Old Testament is finished if you know Jesus as your Lord and Messiah for all His commands are simple and clear as you will know them in your heart and mind. All scripture is fulfilled and finished for those who know the heart and mind of Jesus one with the heart and mind our Father one in their hearts and minds!!!

    Love you and I truly hope you find your reserved position as a little child of God you seem to seek.

  • JT Orzan

    Me, too.

  • Westcoastlife

    But you aren’t addressing the women who do lead men with relevant scripture. If women can be directive towards men, don’t then skip from the story about Pricilla teaching Apollos, or leave the story about Huldah instructing and interpreting the Bible for the High Priest or Deborah the Prophet leading and judging Israel. Don’t jump to another verse, written (in Deborah’s and Huldah’s cases, centuries) later to claim these women weren’t doing the perfect will of God when they taught or prophesied (or both) while they were lead by the spirit.

    If the Apostle Paul says; ‘I don’t permit A woman to teach A man’, well that could mean a particular woman he has in mind, one-on-one instruction or a directive to all women for all time. But, whatever it means, you can’t make it mean Huldah, Deborah and Pricilla were outside the will of God when they explained the texts to the People, High Priest or future Apostle (Deborah, Huldah and Pricilla respectively), because 1 Timothy has some instruction that may or, given what we read about Deborah or Huldah, may not be meant for all women in at all times.

    Again, you are letting others do the thinking for you. If the Bible teaches us, and keeps telling us stories of women prophets teaching and instructing men, then one verse about roles for women in a particular church Paul is addressing Timothy about, needs to be weighed properly. Those Timothy instructions don’t apply at all times. Paul never had a problem with Pricilla teaching Apollos. If Timothy was a new Law for all people and times, why wouldn’t Paul of been upset with Pricilla?, why would he call Junia an apostle? and why wouldn’t he correct people over the notion Deborah, Huldah and other women lead and directed men? He had no trouble telling people where they were getting the Old Testament wrong.

    Paul doesn’t correct Pricilla or Junia because he doesn’t see women directing men as straining anything or damaging anything. Nowhere does Paul make gender roles out to be more important that obedience to Christ. I will ask you this again. If God asked you to prophesy to a man you barely knew, would you say “no, God, I can’t, I don’t know him enough to subtly influence him and I can’t be direct to him”? Would you really put Piper’s view of male/female relationships over God’s call? Because God has called women before and thankfully, they didn’t question their sub culture’s gender roles before obeying God.

  • Cayce

    In addressing this issue, I have
    not let others think for me as you assume.
    I have read and reread Scripture in its entirety, from beginning to end,
    over and over. My beliefs come from seeking
    the meaning of Scripture through a personal search asking the Holy Spirit to be
    my guide. If they are wrong, it is not because I have relied on others to think
    for me.

    I have gone back and reread,
    thought, and prayed for God’s wisdom in studying the issue of whether women
    should teach or lead men. The
    foundation of my thinking is that the Old Testament narrative, beginning with
    the creation account, and the New Testament commands clearly show God intended men
    and women to have different roles, and those roles are a part of our reflecting
    God’s plan to the world.[1] (I have listed the New Testament Scriptures at
    the end.) Any specific instances of women acting in the Old or New Testaments should
    not be interpreted to conflict with the explicit biblical commands unless it is
    an instance where the person is disobeying God (e.g. We wouldn’t interpret
    David’s affair with Bathsheba to mean that adultery is biblical).

    You are correct that I initially
    did not separate the ideas of teaching and prophesying. Prophesying is, in the words of the Bible, “men
    [speaking] from God as they [are] carried along by the Holy Spirit.” It is giving the word God has given, but not
    going beyond that to teach, exhort, or give an interpretation[2]. Therefore, if God gave me words to speak to a
    man, I would speak those words to the man.
    I am not sure that this would happen. The situations with Huldah and
    Deborah could have been for a time in the Old Testament when the Holy Spirit
    did not yet indwell people as he has indwelt believers since Pentecost. The call of women to prophesy could be to
    other women and children. But I am not
    certain. It is also possible that Paul
    was saying that women could prophesy (speak the word given to them by God with
    a head covering on) or pray and that the command not to speak in 1 Corinthians
    14:34-35 could relate to saying anything that is not strictly a direct word
    from God or prayer. Whichever it is, I
    am sure that the call to prophesy should not be interpreted to conflict with
    other explicit commands to women not to teach men.

    Below I address the three women
    you mentioned as examples of women teaching and instructing men.[3] In sum, their interactions with men are limited
    to repeating the words given them by God.
    They do not violate the multitude of scriptures which explicitly forbid women
    to teach men, command women to be silent in church, and command women to submit
    to their husbands.

    Huldah

    This was quite a low point in
    Judah’s history. They don’t even know
    where the Book of the Law is. It was
    found when they were trying to repair the temple which had fallen into
    disrepair after over 50 years of idolatry and wicked leadership under Manasseh
    and his son, Amon. There was no godly
    male leadership. Yes, God used Huldah. But Huldah spoke the word God gave her and nothing
    more. This is not Huldah being directive
    over these men. It is God giving them
    His word through her.

    The text tells us that Josiah sent
    the High Priest and others to “inquire of the Lord.” The High Priest chose to go to Huldah. Huldah’s
    only words spoken to the High Priest were prophetic (as in what God through the
    Holy Spirit moved her to say.) This is
    shown by the fact that she clearly states, “This is what the Lord says.” [4] She did not teach, interpret,
    or expand upon the word given her by God.
    As 2 Peter 2:20-21 reminds us what prophecy is…

    Above all, you must understand that no prophecy
    of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy
    never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they
    were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Deborah[5]

    Judges is a book of ever
    increasing low points in the history of Israel before it is divided into the
    Southern and Northern Kingdoms. Israel
    goes through cycles of “doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord,” having
    God “raise up a deliverer,” experiencing a period of rest during the lifetime
    of the deliverer, and again “doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord.” Deborah comes in at a point where God has
    called a man named Barak to gather men to go and “meet” the army of Jabin, the
    king of Canaan. Barak has failed to
    obey. Deborah prophesies to Barak,
    merely repeating the word that God has already given Barak. She did not teach, interpret, or expand upon
    the words already spoken by God to Barak.
    She merely repeated them. Did God
    use Deborah? Of course. But did Deborah
    teach, lead, or otherwise act in a directive manner over Barak. The text in no way indicates that she did. In fact, it says that Barak called that men
    and they “went up at his heels.” With
    respect to Deborah, it only says that she went with him, and she is not
    mentioned in the battle at all. (Jael
    is, but she did not lead anyone, only killed Sisera while he slept). In the
    song that Deborah and Barak sang afterwards, she says she “arose as a mother in
    Israel.” Whatever that means, it surely
    did not indicate that she directed men. The song further commands her to “Awake,
    awake, break out in song!” Her role is
    to be a mother and sing over the deliverance God has provided. Barak is commanded to “lead away the
    captives.”

    Priscilla[6]

    The text does not say that
    Priscilla instructed Apollos. In fact that Priscilla and her husband, Aquilla, had Apollos over to their home and “explained
    to him the way of God more adequately” is not a basis for determining that
    women are to have a directive role with respect to men. Giving the facts of the gospel to someone is
    not the same as exhorting or exercising authority over that person.

    Finally, as we interact with
    non-believers, we are the church to them.
    Thus, I think a woman working outside the home should live out the
    gender roles established at creation and further explained in the rest of the
    Old Testament and the New Testament (these verses go back to the creation
    order). Jesus is a supporter of the
    created order which reflects God to the world.
    The Bible even tells us to be subject to our husbands, so that no one
    will malign the word of God. See Titus 2:5.
    The Bible also tells us to look
    specifically at Sarah, Abraham’s wife.
    See 1 Peter 3:1-6. These biblical
    gender roles are inseparable from how we follow God in every aspect of live. We are not following him if we disobey His
    commands to women.

    1 Corinthians 11:3-9

    Now I want you to realize that
    the head of every man is Christ, and the
    head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every
    man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And
    every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her
    head–it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not
    cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a
    woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A
    man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of
    God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from
    woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but
    woman for man.

    1 Corinthians 14:33-35

    For God is not a God of disorder but
    of peace. As in all the
    congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the
    churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as
    the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should
    ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in
    the church.

    Ephesians 5:22-33

    Wives, submit to your husbands as
    to the Lord. For the husband is the
    head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which
    he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives
    should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love
    your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to
    make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through
    the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without
    stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In
    this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He
    who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his
    own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– for
    we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his
    father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one
    flesh.” This is a profound mystery–but I am talking about Christ and
    the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as
    he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

    1 Timothy 2:8-14

    I want men everywhere to lift up
    holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I also want women
    to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or
    pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for
    women who profess to worship God. A
    woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to
    teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was
    formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the
    woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

    1 Timothy 5:9-16

    No widow may be put on the list
    of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and
    is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing
    hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and
    devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. As for younger widows, do not
    put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their
    dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on
    themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. Besides, they get
    into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only
    do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things
    they ought not to. So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have
    children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for
    slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. If
    any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and
    not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those
    widows who are really in need.

    Titus 2:3-5

    Likewise, teach the older women
    to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to
    much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the
    younger women to love their husbands and children, to be
    self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be
    subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

    1 Peter 3:1-6

    Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so
    that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without
    words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and
    reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from
    outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and
    fine clothes. Instead, it should
    be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet
    spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. For this is the way the
    holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves
    beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah,
    who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you
    do what is right and do not give way to fear.

    [1] Wives,
    submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as
    Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also
    wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ
    loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing
    with water through the word, and to
    present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any
    other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their
    wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but
    he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his
    father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
    This is a profound mystery–but I am talking about Christ and the church [Ephesians
    5:22-32].

    [2] “Above
    all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the
    prophet’s own interpretation” [2 Peter 2:20].

    [3] There
    is enough uncertainty over Junia as to make it unfruitful to argue that Romans
    16:7 is a basis for women to teach or otherwise
    direct men. Romans 16:7 says, “Greet
    Andronicus and Junias [or Junia], my relatives who have been in prison with me.
    They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

    [4] She said to them, “This is what the
    LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, ‘This is what
    the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people,
    according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. Because
    they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger
    by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against this place
    and will not be quenched.’ Tell the king
    of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God
    of Israel, says concerning the words you heard:
    Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the
    LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that
    they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and
    wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. Therefore I will gather you to your fathers,
    and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am
    going to bring on this place’ ” [2 Kings 22:15-20].

    She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God
    of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to
    bring disaster on this place and its people–all the curses written in the book
    that has been read in the presence of the king of Judah. Because they have forsaken me and burned
    incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all that their hands have
    made, my anger will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched.’ Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to
    inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning
    the words you heard: Because your heart
    was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke
    against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me
    and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the
    LORD. Now I will gather you to your
    fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the
    disaster I am going to bring on this place and on those who live here’ ” [2
    Chronicles 34:23-28].

    [5]
    Judges 4-5

    [6] Meanwhile
    a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned
    man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord,
    and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew
    only the baptism of John. He began to
    speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they
    invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately [Acts
    18:24-16].

  • sg

    Luther was a reactionary.

    Two kingdoms just means rendering unto Caesar what is his and unto God what is His.

    No place on earth can be as fully just as God Himself, but we still have to live here, so we need to see the difference between the kingdom of this world and the Kingdom that is not of this world.

    Jesus’s Kingdom will come to this world and His will be done on earth as in heaven, but that is His work.

  • sg

    nope, I am on the Left.

  • sg

    Probably because men invented writing, books, philosophy, schools, etc.

  • sg

    The company or perhaps gov’t decides that they have to fill out forms. You just pass them out. That is not authority. It is just work.

  • sg

    Orthodox, Coptics, Roman Catholics and Lutherans are not fundies and they don’t allow women in the pulpits, but they are fine with women running businesses. The main thing though is that often, not always, women want to run someone else’s business. Since pretty much any business large enough to employ them in upper management was built by men, then, women are placed there because if they aren’t suitably exceptional like Apple, then they are open to being sued for not having women. So her salary is cheaper than an embarrassing lawsuit. Apple has no females at the top. Also, no blacks or hispanics. Some ordinary business can’t get away with that so easily, but important businesses can be run almost entirely by white guys and it is fine. So as you say money=power. The businesses with more money, have more power, so… they have fewer women.

  • sg

    Women are such great workers and yet businesses don’t want to pay them as much or hire them as much. Which is it?

    Note that the vast majority of propping up is done by men for women. It means that women are weaker because people don’t really want to hire them as much in this economy.

  • sg

    Are you aware we have anti-discrimination laws that do not allow companies to just hire men if they want to? It is women who get to sue companies if they do not get hired or promoted. The women are protected by these laws. So, yeah, without these laws, the dynamic of men getting paid more because employers value them more would be full on apparent as it was in the past.

    Now employers are quite clever. One way of getting rid of female employees at your computing companies is to hire a bunch of Pakistani men and the women will just choose not to work there. Problem solved. Lower wages more profits. Some guy working here with his wife back home has no problem working overtime etc.

  • sg

    People pay to watch it, like other crap like Sex in the City. Of course some think those women should be paid a lot of money for easier work that has even less value than football. At least football doesn’t hurt the viewers.

  • Herm

    Thank you sg for your response. Jesus’ kingdom/empire is here today. Chronologically this has been true since the prince of this world was defeated and our Lord was given full authority over heaven and earth. That is the Gospel/The Good News.

    The book of Revelations was only a prophetic letter to the seven churches and all has happened nearly 2,000 years ago and the results are happening today.

    The church of Rabbi Jesus is held in our hearts and minds today.

    As you write I am certain this discussion could become you say versus I say. If you doubt what I am saying please go directly to our only Instructor and ask Him.

    Love you and may the peace and joy you seek be accepted in your heart and mind, today, as is surely offered according to the will of our Father.

  • sg

    To me it is a dichotomy.

    Either the Bible is inspired, inerrant, infallible, and efficacious or it has no more standing than Aesop’s fables.

    If the latter, I would just sleep in on Sundays and never donate a dime to any charity or good cause because I am not a good person.

    Now some atheists are good people who care about others, etc. But if I went that direction, I would just party all the time like there is no tomorrow because I don’t care.

    So, the forgiveness of sins is important to me because I know I am not good. If what the Bible says is not entirely true, then I am not interested at all. I mean, which part shall we say is not true? The part I care about, or the part you don’t.

    For me it is all or nothing.

  • sg

    I agree. Really masculine guys can get a woman with a career and high salary to match, which of course increases their lifestyle as well. So, yeah that makes sense.

  • sg

    “What about the psychological implications of telling people whose lives
    were just ripped apart by a tornado that God did it to them because
    they deserved it?”

    Did Piper say that? I don’t follow him.

  • So, either everything in it is accurate in every way something can be accurate, or it is a total lie with no value whatsoever.

    So, when Jesus says, “I am the true vine,” and is not a vine at all in any kind of scientific or literal sense of the word, does that deprive the Bible of all value?

  • I am not sure how what you said relates to what I said.

    Incidentally, I’m a programmer, and I can assure you that we had and continue to have a hostile environment for women long before outsourcing became common. I’m also not entirely sure why you think the presence of Pakistanis would make women leave.

  • Summers-lad

    Should a woman be a police officer? It just boggles my mind that anyone would even think of asking the question.

  • Suzanna Turner

    We have come a long way but there still is a long way to still go for the rights of women. If your a woman and not Caucasian it is even worse.

  • Suzanna Turner

    I guess Piper wants us to go back to the society in the Bible where Women had no identity whatsoever. In the feeding of the 5000 they don’t even bother to mention women and children.

  • fluffybabybunnyrabbit

    How encouraging to see someone thinking the passages through properly instead of just parroting selected verses of word for word and then imposing their personal assumptions on others! Thank you.

  • bluebayou3

    Thank you, fbbr!

  • bluebayou3

    When Deborah ordered Barak to jump, he asked, “How high?” She, as Judge, was commander-in-chief of the military. Remember that the time of the Judges was a time of the rule of law in Israel, and not the arbitrary rules of kings. It was God’s preferred government for His people.

  • Cayce

    In addressing this issue, I have not let others think for me as you assume. I have read and reread Scripture in its entirety, from beginning to end, over and over. My beliefs come from seeking the meaning of Scripture through a personal search asking the Holy Spirit to be my guide.

    I have gone back and reread, thought, and prayed for God’s wisdom in studying the issue of whether women
    should teach or lead men. The foundation of my thinking is that the Old Testament narrative, beginning with the creation account, and the New Testament commands clearly show God intended men and women to have different roles, and those roles are a part of our reflecting
    God’s plan to the world.[1] (I have listed the New Testament Scriptures which speak specifically to women’s roles at the end.) Any specific instances of women acting in the Old or New Testaments should not be interpreted to conflict with the explicit biblical commands unless it is
    an instance where the person is disobeying God (e.g. We wouldn’t interpret David’s affair with Bathsheba to mean that adultery is biblical).

    You are correct that I initially did not separate the ideas of teaching and prophesying. Prophesying is, in the words of the Bible, “men [speaking] from God as they [are] carried along by the Holy Spirit.” It is giving the word God has given, but not going beyond that to teach, exhort, or give an interpretation[2]. Therefore, if God gave me words to speak to a man, I would speak those words to the man.
    I am not sure that this would happen. The situations with Huldah and Deborah could have been for a time in the Old Testament when the Holy Spirit did not yet indwell people as he has indwelt believers since Pentecost. The call of women to prophesy could be to other women and children. But I am not certain. It is also possible that Paul was saying that women could prophesy (speak the word given to them by God with a head covering on) or pray and that the command not to speak in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 could relate to saying anything that is not strictly a direct word
    from God or prayer. Whichever it is, I am sure that the call to prophesy should not be interpreted to conflict with
    other explicit commands to women not to teach men and to remain silent in church.

    Below I address the three women you mentioned as examples of women teaching and instructing men.[3] In sum, their interactions with men are limited to repeating the words given them by God. They do not violate the multitude of scriptures which explicitly forbid women
    to teach men, command women to be silent in church, and command women to submit to their husbands.

    Huldah-This was quite a low point in Judah’s history. They didn’t even know where the Book of the Law was. It was
    found when they were trying to repair the temple which had fallen into disrepair after over 50 years of idolatry and wicked leadership under Manasseh and his son, Amon. There was no godly male leadership. Yes, God used Huldah. But Huldah spoke the word God gave her and nothing more. This is not Huldah being directive over these men. It is God giving them His word through her.

    The text tells us that Josiah sent the High Priest and others to “inquire of the Lord.” The High Priest chose to go to Huldah. Huldah’s only words spoken to the High Priest were prophetic (as in what God through theHoly Spirit moved her to say.) This is shown by the fact that she clearly states, “This is what the Lord says.” [4] She did not teach, interpret, or expand upon the word given her by God. As 2 Peter 2:20-21 reminds us what prophecy is…

    Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Deborah[5]-Judges is a book of ever increasing low points in the history of Israel before it is divided into the Southern and Northern Kingdoms. Israel goes through cycles of “doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord,” having
    God “raise up a deliverer,” experiencing a period of rest during the lifetime of the deliverer, and again “doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord.”
    Deborah comes in at a point where God has called a man named Barak to gather men to go and “meet” the army of Jabin, the king of Canaan. Barak has failed to obey. It is interesting to note that, unlike the other judges, there is no language indicating that God raised her up to be a deliverer or called her to judge Israel. Deborah prophesies to Barak, merely repeating the word that God has already given Barak. She did not teach, interpret, or expand upon the words already spoken by God to Barak. She merely repeated them. Did God use Deborah? Of course. But did Deborah teach, lead, or otherwise act in a directive manner over Barak. The text in no way indicates that she did. In fact, it says that Barak called that men and they “went up at his heels.” With respect to Deborah, it only says that she went with him, and she is not mentioned in the battle at all. (Jael is, but she did not lead anyone, only killed Sisera while he slept). In the song that Deborah and Barak sang afterwards, she says she “arose as a mother in Israel.” Whatever that means, it surely did not indicate that she directed men. The song further commands her to “Awake,awake, break out in song!” Her role is to be a mother and sing over the deliverance God has provided. Barak is commanded to “lead away the captives.”

    Priscilla[6]-The fact that Priscilla and her husband, Aquilla, had Apollos over to their home and “explained to him the way of God more adequately” is not a basis for etermining that women are to have a directive role with respect to men. Giving the facts of the gospel to someone is not the same as exhorting or exercising authority over that person.

    Finally, as we interact with non-believers, we are the church to them. Thus, I think a woman working outside the home should live out the gender roles established at creation and further explained in the rest of the Old Testament and the New Testament (these verses go back to the creation order). Jesus is a supporter of the created order which reflects God to the world. The Bible even tells us to be subject to our husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. See Titus 2:5. The Bible also tells us to look specifically at Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as a role model. See 1 Peter 3:1-6. These biblical gender roles are inseparable from how we follow God in every aspect of live. We are not following him if we disobey His
    commands to women.

    1 Corinthians 11:3-9-Now I want you to realize that
    the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every
    man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her
    head–it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of
    God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

    1 Corinthians 14:33-35-For God is not a God of disorder butof peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should
    ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

    Ephesians 5:22-33-Wives, submit to your husbands as
    to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without
    stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– for
    we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery–but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

    1 Timothy 2:8-14-I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

    1 Timothy 5:9-16-No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. As for younger widows, do not
    put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for
    slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those
    widows who are really in need.

    Titus 2:3-5-Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

    1 Peter 3:1-6-Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet
    spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you
    do what is right and do not give way to fear.

    [1] Wives,submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery–but I am talking about Christ and the church [Ephesians
    5:22-32].

    [2] “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation” [2 Peter 2:20].

    [3] There is enough uncertainty over Junia as to make it unfruitful to argue that Romans 16:7 is a basis for women to teach or otherwise direct men. Romans 16:7 says, “Greet Andronicus and Junias [or Junia], my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

    [4] She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the
    LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and
    wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place’ ” [2 Kings 22:15-20].

    She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God
    of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people–all the curses written in the book
    that has been read in the presence of the king of Judah. Because they have forsaken me and burned
    incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all that their hands have made, my anger will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched.’ Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. Now I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place and on those who live here’ ” [2 Chronicles 34:23-28].

    [5]
    Judges 4-5

    [6] Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew
    only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they
    invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately [Acts 18:24-16].

  • Westcoastlife

    Likely all this is water under the bridge now. We had power out for a few days here, so this is why I am so late in responding.

    I already mentioned the versus you quoted back to me, not sure why you needed to copy and paste every single verse we are talking about.

    Here is a better translation of Acts 18:26: ‘…There they [Priscilla and Aquila] gave him a better understanding of the way of God.’ What is teaching if it is not “giving a better understanding” you are now splitting hairs to fit your hypothesis of gender roles. Priscilla taught Apollos, there is no other way to describe that.

    OK, do you wear a head covering in church? If you think this is an intrusive question don’t answer it, just think about this: all those verses about wives submitting to husbands in the NT can be read as cultural advice. We don’t tell women to cover their heads in church anymore. Why? It is cultural. Should women prophesy with their heads covered today? No. The same way we don’t tell modern day sex slaves to submit to their masters, but run like a bat out of h*ll. Sure, Paul told slaves to submit to their masters, but that was because they had nowhere to run and were stuck in those terrible situations. Just because Paul told Roman slaves to submit, doesn’t mean we continue to teach that or support slavery. And, slavery is not illegal in certain non UN member countries today, so you can’t argue the illegal excuse. Christians are breaking national law to rescue slaves and that is a godly thing to do, despite piles of cherry picked verses I could give you to the contrary.

    I find it amusing you bring up Sarah. Have you read that story recently? Sarah is the antithesis of what John Piper is advocating for. When Sarah gets jealous of Abraham’s relationship with his oldest son (Ishmael), she tells Abraham she is sending Hagar and Ishmael away. Abraham is heartbroken and Sarah doesn’t care. Sure, God will build the nation of Israel through Abe’s second son (God assures him of this), but there was no reason Ishmael couldn’t have stayed. Instead, Sarah orders Hagar and Ishmael out, upsetting Abraham. That is hardly a submissive wife, or, the definition of submission in the Bible is drastically different than John Piper’s version.

    But let’s stick with Piper’s concern that women shouldn’t give direct orders or tell men what to do. There is no difference between Huldah telling the Priest that God is mad and this or that will happen and a police woman telling a man that the law will bring about this or that to a criminal she is arresting. Adding “thus saith the Lord” doesn’t negate the fact Huldah was being direct. Both Huldah and the policewoman are not acting on their own authority, but of a higher power (Huldah, God; policewoman; the State). John Piper’s concern isn’t whose authority the policewomen is acting on behalf of, it is that fact she is confronting men directly. He doesn’t like drill sergeants for the same reason. Huldah was being direct. John Piper says that is wrong. If God told you to confront a man in sin, saying “the Lord told me” doesn’t get Piper’s approval, he isn’t concerned with who gives you the authority to speak, he is concerned that you are confronting a man directly at all.

    Most of those verses you gave me told me a lot about women’s roles as Greco Roman wives (I actually know quite a bit about Roman households and could add a lot, but I won’t bore you), none of that in any way indicates a woman couldn’t be confrontational or direct with a man. Priscilla certainly was with Apollos. Explaining something directly to a man is a big “no-no” to Piper. Earlier he said a woman writing about Theology was fine, but if she read her paper to a group of men, that was a problem. So, according to Piper, Priscilla’s a problem.

    I don’t wear a head covering and do prophesy. I have enough knowledge to see legalism for what it is and I avoid it, but I don’t think Paul was being legalistic to Greco Roman women when he wrote that (to them, we are the eavesdroppers). Paul told women in the Greek Speaking Provinces of the Roman Empire to cover their heads when prophesying. He told wives to submit to their husbands and even used an analogy of Christ and the church based on Roman household legal order. Remember, women weren’t even citizens in Rome and a husband could have her killed, any wife would be wise to submit to her husband in that culture. Great, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it is a rule to be bound to for all time. We abolish slavery, we don’t support it. We abolish inequality, we don’t support it. Jesus isn’t caught up with roles, if he was, why did he commend Mary for ditching her womanly role of serving guests and instead, sitting at his feet. He even told her sister Martha that Mary had made the better choice.

  • Westcoastlife

    http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/leavingsalem/2012/03/john-pipers-fingers-of-god-gives-the-finger-to-the-suffering.html

    After these comments on tornados, he then tweeted (about a year later) the Job versus about Job losing all his kids to tornados.

  • otrame

    I don’t think protecting your child from the rantings of misogynists is going to help her one little bit. My mother always insisted that immunization was better than isolation. Let her listen and then discuss what you don’t like about it.

  • Denis Deeborn

    It’s rather entertaining listening to people use big new liberal terms like “misogynists” and rant on about how the churches problem is blah, blah, blah. I wonder how many strong opinions of such issues are that strong bout their own lives? Hmm……………..Anyhow, Sitting in your home office typing away on a keyboard ranting off your opinion about the words of another person…..Well, if that is what you feel grants you personal satisfaction or maybe it’s putting all those “terms” after/in front of your name? ABC, DEF,GHI……….etc,etc,etc??? LOL, look, what many of you miss is the order in which the Lord specifically made and directed. No matter what your opinion is, God is always right. How can you even have the nerve to question the very one who created you? As if God didn’t catch something or that Hey!!!!!!! You forgot about sociological evolution! In short, if you want to know why we have men dressing as girls,little girls confused about being a woman or man, little boys confused about being a man or woman, men walking around acting more feminine than any woman or a woman acting like she has more testosterone than a MEU of US Marines, well, I would then ask you to look deep into your own twisted logic and ask yourself this “Is my theology part of the problem.”… Chances are you will attack me with your childish name calling, resort to telling me I am one of the “stone age thinkers” blah, blah, blah…… Yet the same exact problem still grows and things have only progressed worse.Those of you with the ignorance to claim that typical Christian teaching is all woman barefoot & pregnant is typical liberal fundamentalism, nothing more. You are all in the same group as those who claim that defunding planed parenthood is an attack upon a woman’s right to choose when the fact is, defunding that butchering organization is simply taking away the tax payers money and forcing them to seek donations from all those screaming about a woman’s right to choose. Through my years in Psychology, one thing is unquestionable and that is that men and woman are very different both physically and psychologically. Is it true that there are many job functions where a woman should not be in as well as where a man should not as well? Yup…….Does this get under the skin of many uber lefties? LOL, Oh yeah it does….. You see folks, The Lord even said that in these days, many would turn from the truth, they wanted to hear what their “itching ears” wanted to hear and so we are reading all this garbage above. Do you know why the US Marines to this day refuse to make Bootcamp “co-ed”??? Because Marines know that once you do that you break a fundamental rule of training and unfortunately the US Army, Air FOrce & Navy all suffer now because of it. The writer was “scared” of his female DI………………….LOL, good for him but there is a reason why Marines are so effective in combat and I can bet you my bottom dollar that co-ed training would destroy this fact hence, why the US Marines refuse to integrate. so, does this make me an enemy of the new liberal theology? I guess, do I hate woman? Nope, Do I think a females place is under a mans foot and to carry out his every order? Nope… Although these are the authors and many of you who posted, your views, even if I took the time to address each and every one with truth & facts, you would reject it because you have already rejected God’s original order.

  • Stacey (the kids’ Aunt Tasty)

    So you don’t come across like such an ignoramus in the future, the term “misogynists” isn’t a liberal term. It’s an English word that describes people who believe that Galatians 3.28 is a lie.

  • Proud Amelekite

    “To the degree that a woman’s influence
    over a man, guidance of a man, leadership of a man, is personal and a
    directive, it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of
    responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order.”

    That is what it is all about. Power over women. Even the anti-gay stuff is about that. Whenever anyone mentions “traditional values” and “God’s created order” they are referencing and revering the brutalization of women.

  • Proud Amelekite

    [No matter what your opinion is, God is always right. How can you even have the nerve to question the very one who created you?]

    So, if a girl is being molested by her father, she has no right to question it because he created her. That is a real crackerjack moral system. Worked great for the Nazis. Maybe if God didn’t want is backwards systems to be questioned and picked apart, he should have skipped the “free will” part of the design when making else. Too bad for him.

    [I hate woman? Nope, Do I think a females place is under a mans foot and to carry out his every order? Nope.]

    I am sure that is how it must seem to you. Many like you believe they love women and cherish women, but the problem with the traditionalist is you do not see women as human beings. You see them as property or livestock. They are things to be owned. You can, of course, deny that this is the truth but your appeals to the vapid authority of God pretty much say it all. You and your brethren wish the world was more like Saudi Arabia.

    Bang up job your God is doing, by the way. If mere human beings can topple his pathetic order, how powerful could Yaweh really be?

    Something to consider.

  • Proud Amelekite

    The women and children weren’t mentioned for the same reason that the livestock present at that scene wasn’t mentioned.

  • LadyWoman

    “To the degree that a woman’s influence over a man, guidance of a man, leadership of a man, is personal and a directive, it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order.” I’ve heard similar arguments before, particularly explanations that when a woman is speaking or teaching in church it’s perceived as ok if there’s some understanding that she’s under a man’s “spiritual covering” or whatever when she’s doing so. So the rightness or wrongness of female leadership seems to be whether men FEEL threatened or not. If females authored all books under male pseudonyms or preached from inside opaque boxes using voice modulators so they sounded “male” would that be ok as long as the men didn’t KNOW they were listening to women? Another blogger (I wish I could remember who – Rachel Held Evans? Libby Anne?…ugh, horrible memory!) made the point that when you examine arguments like these, it is literally female BODIES that are the problem. I’d never made that connection before but it blew my mind and made total twisted sense.

  • grebekahmac

    Where do mothers fit into this? It seems Piper’s big distinction between appropriate directive roles for women over men and inappropriate directive roles is the word “personal.” He seems to be saying that it is acceptable for women to give instruction to men as long as it is not “personal.” So for Piper, are mothers an exception to this rule or do they get their own rubric for measuring what is okay instruction and what is not?

  • Joshua Jeong-Seop Lee

    Wow… Mr. Corey… You sir should be ashamed of yourself for nit-picking parts of John Piper’s podcast in order for it to fit your narrative.

    For all the people putting up pitchforks, do yourself a huge favor and listen to the whole podcast instead of reading bits and pieces of what was spoon-fed to you by a blogger that is trying to get clicks for this post and perhaps some fame…

    Listen to the podcast in its entirety multiple times… Read the full transcript of that podcast. Make your own opinions about the podcast based on ALL the words that are said and ALL the words that are written (as it was transcribed). Make sure you read and understand all of it. Do not pick bits and pieces of it.

  • lambiepie3000

    no you say hi and ask them to make YOU a sandwich

  • lambiepie3000

    I was just thinking about women and God’s teaching that women are ‘ezer’ like Himself…and then considering that many Bible women are actually ‘saviours’ in the human sense…this is more than irony. Esther, Abigail, Deborah, the woman with the millstone who killed Abimelech, the wise women who had the head of Sheba, Son of Bichri, thrown over the wall to save the city, then there is Jael who saved Israel, Ruth, and Rahab, Huldah the prophetess, and if you start to think you will find that this is THE NATURE of women then and now. We have been “Ezer” and the patriarchal world has said we are to hide this so they can get the glory…but the cat is out of the bag and we know we are here to rescue and deliver men from their arrogance and foolish idolatrous self-worship, not to mention envy that they can’t have babies or control that process…I think that really irks them that they can’t do the job of controlling the future of humanity…saving humankind. In every case above there was a man who needed to repent and who refused. God used these women to settle his score with them…be afraid, be very afraid…God is not mocked

  • lambiepie3000

    “men and woman are very different…psychologically”

    Are you sure that the differences between men and women are not largely because of status and not psychology? The behaviour of women is remarkably like the behaviour of those in lower castes, classes and slaves…a reaction to being belittled, ignored and run over…rather than actually a psychology of “woman”. For example, if women were fully allowed to experience life without the limitations that are exerted on them from girlhood they would not be so angry, petulant and downright ’emotional’ at all…all this psychology is just their justifiable rage for being treated as irrelevant…as Mr. Piper is wont to do. Since they are taught to refrain from asking for what they want, doing what they want or thinking what they want, they are suffering from a lack of KNOWING who they are and what they really want…they are taught to be an appendage for men…and this is only recently being recognized. Once this changes …and it IS changing…you will find that there is nothing different about them psychologically…they are just human beings.

  • Maurpd

    John Pipers views on Women are not Biblical and are totally pathetic sad to say! If men’s egos are so easily affected or caused to stumble because a woman may lead or give directives to them, then the men in question have a HUGE problem with their masculine Identity, which are not based in who they are as Son’s of their Heavenly Father, but rather are based in their Roles, performance and power. Come on John Piper, deal with your own Insecurities as a man, then you might have a more Biblical and life giving Word and understanding of Women and you won’t be so easily threatened in your masculine identity by women in leadership.

  • yael58

    You’re a psychologist? I feel sorry for your clients.
    But hey, thanks for the mansplaining.

  • yael58

    What a wonderful witness to the world. Saying women can be leaders in secular society but must be subordinate to men in the church and the family.
    After all, nothing expresses the love Jesus has for women like the Old Boys Network who runs the church and the family (and the world for that matter) defending a hermeneutic that insists it should be only the Old Boys Network that runs the church, the family, and the world.

  • yael58

    He is in love with his own misguided and unbiblical sense of male entitlement and male privilege.

  • yael58

    “Eisegesis much?” Says the man who is so in love with his own sense of male entitlement and male privilege, he reads right it back into Scripture.

  • yael58

    To put it bluntly, FBBR, his eisegesis majorly sucks.

  • yael58

    “Does the fact that Deborah led in the book of Judges or the fact that Hulda was a prophetess mean that this was God’s perfect will? Certainly God used those women where men failed to do what he was calling them to do (lead and prophesy truth). God can certainly use women today who are in jobs where they are giving orders to men. That doesn’t mean that this is God’s perfect will and that the Bible isn’t clear about the distinctive roles of women and men.”

    It must not have been God’s perfect will either for the Samaritan woman to have told her fellow Samaritans about Christ, or for Jesus to even talk to her vs a man in the first place. Neither was it in God’s perfect will to reveal the Resurrection first to a woman. What a terribly limited and limiting view of God.

    As for “distinctive roles of women and men”, I find it sad you believe in a gospel that comes in pink for girls and blue for boys.

    And if you respond, please don’t copy and paste in order to proof text. I am more than familiar with those verses (having had them shoved down my throat for decades).

  • Richard Lambert

    I used to work at Walmart in ths deli and there was this guy who worked with us for a while who had this cinstant attitude like, “im a Christian MAN, and my boss may be a woman, but I’ll do things the way I see fit, cuz I know better cuz I’m a Christian MAN!” (….I try not to be slanderous, but I honestly think he might have also been a little cray-cray….he claimed to have a masters degree in theology, and also to be a martial arts master…he offered to give me lessons in his basement once… o_o I said, no thank you. ) Anyway, more personally, most of my teachers and bosses and instructors have been women…many of whome were very dear to me. I didn’t always agree with them, and some of them truly were incompatent, but it had nothing to do with their gender. I’ve had plenty of male overseers who were not merely incompatent, but more monstrous or negligent. I can count on one hand the men who have come into my life to direct out of love or concern. I need many hands to count the women. No, I can’t see the reasoning in this man’s line of thinking, nor just because I don’t believe it’s biblical, but more so because it just very simply has not been my experience. I will not throw my women overseers/teachers under the bus.