Dan Savage Proves His Courage

Dan Savage Proves His Courage April 30, 2012

Dan Savage, Professional Gay Victim, uses bullied gay teens as human shields so that he can… bully teens.

He’s a Big Man. I bet there aren’t many 48 year olds who can humiliate kids less than half his age as well as he can.

And this is a Leading and Respected Figure in the American gay community. What do you want to bet there will be deafening silence over this cowardly thug’s behavior?

Dan Savage wins this year’s Son of Ernst “Proof That Just Because You’ve Been a Victim Doesn’t Mean You Can’t Be a Jerk Too” Rohm Award for Most Repellent Representative of Gay Community

What’s next, Dan? Punching out little kids to prove your strength? Screaming at shell-shocked vets in hospital to show you aren’t afraid of anybody? Slapping wheelchair bound old women to show you know how to fight like a man?

Utterly, utterly disgusting.

Gay Community: Give me some hope for you guys with a clear and unequivocal condemnation of this disgusting behavior without a bunch of “Well, you have to understand how he’s suffered” rationalization. The man is a disgusting bully. And this isn’t the first time he’s done this.

Or are you are too busy celebrating (or finding excuses for) the recent gay-orchestrated mini-Kristallnacht?

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  • SecretAgentMan

    “‘We appreciate the level of thoughtfulness and deliberation regarding Dan Savage’s keynote address,”’ the NSPA wrote. ‘some audience members who felt hurt by his words and tone decided to leave in the middle of his speech, and to this, we want to make our point very clear: While as a journalist it’s important to be able to listen to speech that offends you, these students and advisers had simply reached their tolerance level for what they were willing to hear.’”

    Translation “We love this guy and think he’s fantastic. Some Xian members (and we know their names and schools, so watch out) were too pansy-assed to hear the truth. Let’s be very clear, they obviously had a lot to learn about journalism otherwise they would have stayed to get the whole story (and applauded, and repeated everything as the truth line-for-line when they got back to their student newspapers. What the hell else do you think we need your kids for? Learning or something? Sheesh.”

    • Dale Price

      Nice bit of piling on by the (nominal) adults in the NSPA.

      And they wonder why newspapers are going teats up.

  • Kirt Higdon

    “Bullying” is as over broadly defined as sexual harassment and racism and like the charge of racism is actually used to promote the behavior it pretends to oppose.

    • Rosemarie


      The definition of bullying now seems to include mere teasing. I’ve always thought that bullying involved at least the threat of violence, not just schoolyard taunts. Yet even the latter are being labeled “bullying” and targeted for attempted suppression.

      Look, I was teased in school and hated it, so I’m no fan or defender of teasing. But is it realistic to think that we can turn every school into a utopia of sweetness and light where no child is ever taunted, called a name, or snickered at because of something he does? Even if we could, is that really desirable? How will they learn to deal with bullies in the real world?

      When I was teased, everyone told me, “Just ignore them!”. No one patted me on the head and said, “You poor dear, we should pass a law so that no one ever teases you again!” Nope, it was “Just ignore them!”. I had to learn how to deal with people like that myself.

      I certainly feel for children who are teased and/or bullied to the point where they commit suicide. I think a better approach would be to teach victims of teasing and bullying how to handle it rather than outlawing those practices. Take a kid like I was, who is being teased, and rather than blowing them off with, “Oh, just ignore it!” explain to them why kids tease, the “psychology” of the bully, if you will, and give them the tools to cope with bullies. If bullying really gets out-of-hand then you can step in and punish the offenders, and if the child is feeling suicidal then definitely take measures to help him or her. But don’t try to completely shelter all kids from all teasing, and don’t ban teasing because then you just make it taboo and drive it underground. Kids will just learn how to bully more carefully, when no one is watching, so they don’t get caught. Though the victim might get caught while fighting back and then *s/he* gets punished – that’s certainly happened before. I don’t think it’s possible to legislate charity and righteousness in the schoolyard.

      • Hezekiah Garrett

        I was bullied hard enough to eventually walk away from my dear old school days with 2 concussions. Its the teasing that truly still hurts though. Wounds.

        And Rosemary is absolutely right. One of those concussions was from administrative intervention causing it to get ramped up, sub rosa. If there was ever an issue requiring subsidiarity as well as solidarity, this is it.

      • Kirt Higdon

        It’s defined even more broadly than that. Mere “lack of inclusiveness”; i.e. excluding people from your particular clique or circle of friends is now classified as bullying sometimes with the recommended solution that the “bullies” be shunned themselves.

  • Alfredo Escalona

    “Son of Ernst Rohm Award for Most Repellent Representative of Gay Community”


  • BHO

    I think the kids humiliated Dan Savage by leaving and refusing to bow to his anger, hatred and ignorance. What great courage on their part. I wonder f I would have done the same. Savage is a punk, liar and dumb-ass who makes up his agenda.

  • “What do you want to bet there will be deafening silence over this cowardly thug’s behavior?”

    I saw this first on an atheist blog where the blogger himself suggested that Savage may have gone a little too far with his use of certain words – the rest he loved, just not the use of certain words. But the scores of comments disagreed. Except for a couple who seemed to think Savage was being a bully himself, most celebrated Savage and wished he would have gone further. So didn’t seem to be silence as much as celebrating.

    Unless, of course, you mean in the MSM. In which case, no bet at all.

  • John C

    Romans 1, 18-32. ” . . . . foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless . . . . ” (RSV)

  • Noah D

    I wonder why they had an ‘anti-bullying’ speaker at a conference about student journalism…

    …no, I don’t. Journalism education hasn’t been about actual journalism for a long time.

  • Zippy

    “Anti-bullying” is one of the most recent casualties in the postmodern war against truth in speech. “Bullying” now means “failure to abjectly and unequivocally affirm the okayness of sodomy.”

    • And not just the “okayness,” but the moral superiority. The narrative today is: homosexual people who act on that attraction in the bedroom (etc.) are all loving and noble and virtuous and good and wise and special, and heterosexual people are filthy breeders who are either ignoble bigots or secret closet cases–unless they applaud sodomy on every possible occasion and make it clear that they wish fervently that they, too, had the incomparable gift of same-sex sex acts in their lives. In which case they may be grudgingly tolerated so long as we don’t forget how inferior they are–especially in that nasty way they make babies.

  • CJ

    Sadly, there will be a lot of people who look at this post, see the swastika, and ignore everything else.

  • Sean O

    The message of this post is essentially correct. There is much hypocrisy in the gay rights movement. The gay movement is also pursuing a hidden or underhanded agenda of establishing and then using discrimination law and precedent to break down the Catholic Church and other socially conservative churches and groups.

    Despite that the Nazis & Kristallnacht references seem over the top.

  • leahlibresco

    Hey Mark,

    You might want to link to Dan Savage’s post-speech thoughts, he thinks some parts of the talk were appropriate but regrets and apologizes for particular choices, and I think it’s fairest to credit him where you agree.

    The main point of the controversial part of his speech is that the Old Testament prohibitions on gay sex are not sufficient to spur political opposition to recognition of the existence of gay people and don’t justify bullying or abuse, even in the Christian framework. He’s not addressing the Natural Law arguments here, he’s just pointing out that the Jewish purity laws do not all still apply to Christians, so the burden is on believers to explain why a restriction on gay sex is different from the restriction on shellfish — they can’t just point to “The Old Testament forbids it.” This approach to the Bible is incorrect in the Catholic frameword, so, though you may have really serious objections to Savage’s agenda or tone, do you really disagree with the substance of this comment?

    You may run in circles where everyone is only objecting to homosexual acts in the context of natural law and the telos of sex, but, for a lot of queer Americans, the people they know are citing Scripture badly in the way Savage describes and acting out of visceral revulsion. If it’s hard for evangelicals to listen to critiques of the way they read Scripture from a queer lapsed Catholic, maybe more Catholics should stand up and make the same point.

    • leahlibresco

      One other, slightly unrelated, note — hence a separate comment:

      Given the hubbub on the Christian blogosphere about the speech, it’s clear that Savage’s tone (and possibly his career as a sex columnist) eclipsed the content of his speech for the very audience he was trying to reach. That’s too bad for everyone involved, speaker and audience.

      I think you’re falling into the same trap when you jump to Nazi allusions. If you want queer people like me to respond thoughtfully to your questions, it’s harder for us because we have to waste mental energy on repressing the urge to shout “Godwin’s Law!”

      The internet puts a lot of distance between me and the people I’m arguing with, so it’s hard for me to remember I’m talking to people and respond appropriately. If you have time, could you do me a huge favor and listen to Dan Savage’s section of this This American Life podcast (or read through the transcript). It’s not that long and hearing about the ways he’s come back to Mass and struggled with letting his Catholicism lapse might make his humanity feel a little more ‘real’ to you and your readers.

      • Ted Seeber

        From the article Leah linked two, I’ve got two passages that concern me:

        “By her own estimation my mother was a good Catholic. She believed in Jesus, the Resurrection, the virgin births, both of them. There are two, did you know that? What are the odds? The Trinity, the Sacraments. She believed that sex was sacred, and that people, particularly people with children, should be married to each other. But she didn’t believe that being a good Catholic meant blind obedience. So I guess you could say she was a good American Catholic. She believed women should be priests. That priests should be able to marry. And after four pregnancies in four years, she concluded that birth control was not a sin.”

        St. Mary’s birth was IMMACULATE. It’s not a virgin birth. But worse yet, it appears Dan’s parents, like many Catholics in the 1960s, fell away from Apostolic Authority long before the next generation ended up ex-Catholic. But even worse for me was this passage, earlier in the article:

        “By senior year I’d started going to a public school and stopped going to church, except for the odd family wedding, baptism, or funeral. And they are all odd, aren’t they? I go to church about as often as I go to Planned Parenthood for a Pap smear. Then, 12 months ago, my mother died. A virus can lay dormant in your body for so long that it’s possible to forget you were ever infected. Then something happens that weakens your immune system and the virus seizes its opportunity. For more than two decades the Catholicism I’d contracted at Saint Ignatius had lain dormant, manifesting itself only on airplanes and in passing lanes. But the immunity I’d long enjoyed was weakened by my mother’s death. Because since that sunny, awful day in Tucson last spring, I found myself slipping into Catholic churches.”

        Cradle Catholicism as a plague virus? Are you serious? Do you really think we wouldn’t be insulted by that?

        That did not bring his humanity back to me. It shows me that he was pushed down that path by parents who were already in rebellion against the Church, who were already Protestants who just couldn’t bear to give up the habit of Catholicism. They didn’t believe in Apostolic Authority, they didn’t follow the Popes, they rebelled AGAINST the Popes.

        And in the end, that’s what Mark is complaining about with all of the Nazi references- original sin writ public, the formal rebellion against the Church.

      • Mark Shea


        I see no evidence he was trying to reach anybody. He comes across as somebody who is narcissistically stuck on himself and his issues and is full of projection. The guy runs an entire campaign against bullying and is, himself, a first class bully. I’ll try to listen to the link, but I think Savage’s self-justifications are pathetic. The guy needs to face the fact that he the bully he hates. This is not an isolated incident.

        • bob

          In addition to noxious words, do remember that he has little worry about where his bodily fluids wind up. He was convicted for endangering people by slobbering all over doorknobs and such while posing as a political worker in order to spread the flu. Wear gloves when going to hear him speak; you never know when the Compassionate and Caring One will decide he has to make another “example”. Savage is a great commercial for hand sanitizer.

      • John C

        With regard to Savage’s “humanity”: I would find it difficult to “dialogue” with the man who had a little fun with a presidential candidate’s last name a few months ago. You remember his wacky definition of the word “santorum”, don’t you?

      • Dale Price

        That’s better, and definitely humanizing. Good to keep in mind.

        • Ted Seeber

          What part did you find humanizing Dale? If anything, I find ignoring the last 10,000 years of human history and philosophical advancement to be very *dehumanizing*.

    • Bobby

      Sorry, not buying it. Savage is a cruel, angry jerk who apparantly hates Christianity. This is the same fellow who bragged about wanting to rape Michelle Bachmann’s husband and created the vulgar Google assault on Rick Santorum. The fact that any school group would invite him to be a guest speaker speaks volumes about the quality of our educational system.

    • Dale Price

      Except that he went beyond the OT and mocked the NT passages, too.
      Color me disquieted by gay advocates who feel the need to dump on observant Jews as part of a consciousness raising effort.

      More to the point, the holiness code in which the Levitical prohibition on homosexuality is stated also prohibits injustice to one’s neighbor and strangers (19: 9-18), along with incest (18: 6-18). Saying “tee-hee, lobsters!” proves too much, as they say.

    • Ted Seeber

      “This approach to the Bible is incorrect in the Catholic frameword, so, though you may have really serious objections to Savage’s agenda or tone, do you really disagree with the substance of this comment?”

      I disagree with the substance of that comment *because it is making the same mistake all fundamentalists and Biblical Atheists do*- thinking that the Bible is the only authority in the Church (or even AN authority in the church- since how can an inanimate object have authority?)

    • Dale Price

      It’s a start toward an apology, which is welcome.

      He needs to work on a few more:


    • Ted Seeber

      “If believers can ignore what the Bible says about slavery, they can ignore what the Bible says about homosexuality.”

      So, does he want to be his boyfriend’s sex slave, or does he want his boyfriend to be his sex slave? Because that is what ignoring what the Bible said about slavery got us: people using people as objects.

    • Ted Seeber

      I’d also point out that I stand up and make the point every time I hear somebody take one verse out of context and use it to beat somebody over the head with. On way more than homosexuality. The real problem is that I’ve been known to beat anti-communists over the head with a set of verses from the Book of Acts myself.

    • John C

      If Savage thinks that scripture-toting fundamentalist blowhards are abusive towards gays, that’s fine. He should stay away from them. He might find the Catholic Church more hospitable, if only he could set aside his belief that his sexuality defines him as a human being and his insistence that we validate his sexual practices. I don’t demand that he validate my sexual practices, do I? In fact, I think it’s creepy to talk about such matters.

      • Ted Seeber

        Actually, though, the Church does ask all of her children to be chaste- and thus, yes, in a way the Church does validate MY sexual practices. Not my sexual TEMPTATIONS however, and I think that’s where many Americans, including Dan Savage, fail to separate fact from fiction.

  • victor

    It Gets Bitter.

  • Tom

    Savage’s post bullying comments are just proof of his ignorance of the Bible. Sorry Leah, who goes aruond citing Leviticus when talking about homosexuality? Savage is the only person I know who does! My priest talks about the giving fully of one’s self to another under the sacrament of marriage and only touches on Leviticus. But sin was conquered with Christ’s death and resurrection therefore a new time has come and old ways do not stand anymore. Savage is an immature juvenile and will never admit he is wrong.

    • leahlibresco

      I think you’ve got the luxury of hanging out around Natural Law Catholics. Many sola scriptura evangelicals go back to Old Testament proof texts. And because these are prohibitions cited without a broader Christian tradition of scholarship to draw on, it’s really really hard to argue/have a discussion with these folks. I live in a big metropolitan area, so I’m pretty insulated from these people (just as I don’t usually run into Young Earthers) but they exist and it’s really hard to grow up as a queer person in the communities where they’re dominant.

      • nate

        I agree. This is one of the many areas where I wince at talk of the ‘ecumenism of the trenches.’ As an urbanite (orthodox Catholic) myself, I often forget that there are young earthers out there, and people who do indeed perform OT proof-passaging in lieu of argument. Just like I forget that there are people who listen to Rush Limbaugh (honestly, when the Sandra Fluke fiasco hit the air, my first thought was, “That guys is still on the air?”)
        Catholics have truth on their side, a truth that is philosophically articulable, so we simply don’t have to play the hurt feelings card. Bring it on. One might say that Savage was, regardless of his particular angle, just being a dick. Or, more diplomatically, one could argue that Savage too often paints with a broad brush. Then again, if someone really does justify the wrong of something simply by pointing to a passage saying that it’s wrong, this can be rightly criticized.
        But more to the point, these distinctions don’t let Savage off the hook. Savage is a sociopath, and I can’t for the life of me see why bigwigs in the gay community don’t distance themselves from him.

      • Ted Seeber

        That distinction makes Savage all the worse. He was raised Catholic by modernist, heterodox parents. He should KNOW BETTER than to denigrate other people’s religions.

        My 8 year old got this in CCD class just a couple of weeks ago. Were Dan Savage’s parents so into hippie “We are church, we should have married and women priests” that they failed to send him to religious education classes?

    • Ted Seeber

      Reverend Phelps does as well. As do the good folks at the Landover Baptist parody site of Phelp’s Westboro Baptist Church.

      But no self-respecting Catholic does. For one, we’ve got the Theology of the Body to point to- not ancient pre-bronze-age scripture.

  • Noah

    Comparing a bitter but peaceful old man to the Nazis? Truly disgusting post, Mark. It’s outrageously overblown blog posts like these that serve to unmask as the lies they are the claims of “conservative” Catholics not to be driven primarily by homophobia in their discussions of LGBT people.

    • Roberto

      Just so I can understand: what do you mean by “peaceful”? And what do you mean by “homophobia’? A “phobia” is a pathological fear of something. How is Mark displaying a fear of anything?

    • Ted Seeber

      If anything, he’s a Catholicphobic bitter old man who would like to destroy the Church if he could over his own personal sins and temptations.

    • Noah D

      For the record, that isn’t me.

  • You post is digraceful — was using Rohm’s image an inspired act? Some inspiration. And you are the victims? That’s a trick right up in the same league as trans-subtantiation. You … the people who should be on “our” side muddy Christ’s name by allowing homophobia and it’s consequent sins and crimes to be clad in piety. Shame. On. You.

    • Art

      I know, we must believe in the holiness of homosexuality or we are bigoted homophobs. It’s not enough to love the person, we must submit and believe in the holiness of homosexuality. Gee whiz… if you you say were true I would have bought it hook line and sinker.

    • Dale Price
    • Mark Shea

      No. High school students are the victims. And you defend it.

    • Ted Seeber

      When a 48-year-old man goes into a public school setting and starts insulting the religious beliefs of others, yes, his victims are those who listen to him. And as far as I’m concerned, the gays have started acting like thought police- if not the Nazis then the KGB.

  • Art

    Was he comparing him to the Nazis? Or, was he comparing him by the quote of Ernst Rohm?

    • please, he knew exactly what he was doing. let’s not lie to ourselves. it’s a very silly game not worthy of adults. this whole thing was contrived by focus on family and the “story” hit its apex this morning with the fool Doocy on Fox. It’s intended to thwart anti-bullying legislation pending in various places. also, see savage’s statement yesterday and, by all means, watch the speech itself. i am quite disheartened by all of this, but no less willing to fight the scourge of homophobia.

      • Art

        If one rejects homosexuality and loves the person, is one considered homophobic?

        I am assuming you also approve the acts of Dan Savage?

        • “rejects homosexuality” is the sticking point. it would be as absurd if i said i “reject catholocism” and that YOU must therefore abstain from it. mind your own business. at the same time, i believe that the church has erred and is wrong, and has abetted vile sins. i’m plugging myself, but — i re-wrote an Archbishop’s letter recently: http://theologosblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/what-archbishop-nichols-should-have.html

          it was picked up here (context) http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/14/blogger-publishes-archbishops-anti-marriage-equality-letter-how-it-should-have-been/

          • Mark Shea

            The subject here is a grown man’s bullying of a bunch of kids half his age. And with characteristic narcissism apologists for homosexuality turn it into a pity party for themselves.

          • Ted Seeber

            ““rejects homosexuality” is the sticking point. it would be as absurd if i said i “reject catholocism” and that YOU must therefore abstain from it.”

            Which oddly enough is exactly what Dan Savage DID.

          • Art

            Interesting argument to say that homosexuality in of itself is like a religious belief set. The entire argument falls apart, as one is set of faith and morals and the other is something quite different. In regards to any sins of the flesh, I typically do mind my own business until one asks me directly or it is involved in a forum. Truth and Love is what I have been taught growing up. Also humans and their free will have sinned. The church teaches a message of truth and love and if somebody clangs a symbol by teaching truth without love than that is on them, not Church teaching. Jesus Christ did not teach moral relativism, he was and is Love in truth.

            • and jesus christ said NOT ONE WORD about homosexuality, did he? a great deal about love, though. if the church insists on direct participation in matters secular, the church should be taxed, immediately. a “religious belief set” is in the eye of the beholder, i’d say. watch savage’s speech, please, and then tell me that he’s wrong about leviticus. finally, it’s wrong to say that that it (leviticus) is not used to justify a broadly homophobic christian attitude. please understand that i truly respect your faith, but please never believe that i’ll accept discrimination (or worse) because your particular faith trumps my generalized rights as an american and as a human being.

              • Dale Price

                Jesus was silent on many things that have moral implications, such as treatment of migrant workers, renewable energy, unsustainable debt, and loan sharking. It’s a mistake to find in His silence an affirmation of a particular position. It is undisputable that He also never said “The Gospels are all I got to say, folks.”

                • well you’d a thunk if it was SO IMPORTANT he might have mentioned it in between parables, say.

                  and … to the guy who thinks i need a monastic cell – get stuffed. i am not a scholar of RC doctrine. I AM gay, and an American citizen. get used to it.

                  • Art

                    Like Dale said, Jesus was indeed silent on numerous things. It does not indicate a free pass or conclude the lack of importance.

                    Jesus Christ thought it was so important regarding issues of faith and morals that he founded a Church.

                    Sacred Tradition, Magesterium Teaching, and Sacred Scriptures all play part regarding faith and morals.

                    You stated, “please understand that i truly respect your faith, but please never believe that i’ll accept discrimination (or worse).”

                    Be careful with phobia/bigotry/discrimination comments as the same argument could be used against yourself.

                  • Elastico

                    God spoke: “He created them male and female.” Another clue, implicit: Christ is the Bridegroom and the Church is His bride. So He “spoke” in the beginning to the realtionship between the sexes and confirmed it in the New Testament. You need to dig a little into the Church’s theological anthropology.

                  • Noah D

                    Well, he also failed to specifically mention bestiality, rape, polygamy, prostitution, torture…so I guess it’s open season, eh?

              • Ted Seeber

                Homosexuality isn’t love. it’s attraction towards using another person as an object for material sexual gratification alone. Nobody who actually LOVES would do that to another human being.

                • really? do tell me more. waiting with rapt attention for you to demonstrate that i do not love my boyfriend. he’s waiting too. (it won’t be pretty, will it?) but we will want some evidence, please, from your personal experience, of course. we’ll “objectify” whilst we wait. probably into next week sometime.
                  now watch this trick — i’m learning. my sarcastic & defensive remark to such an unbelievable insult will transform itself into an “attack” on christians. waiting.

          • The big difference I see is that nobody is saying opposing Catholicism equals hate, and hate needs to be banished from our public forum, including our schools – and we all know what that means. But that is exactly what Savage is proudly trying to do: Tell my kids that their parents (that’s me) is a hateful scum sucking bigot, and if they don’t renounce and reject me then they are too, and they have no business having any other belief about homosexuality in their schools – if they want to stay in the schools and not shut up about it.

          • Ted Seeber

            A Bric-a-Brac mind indeed. I’d suggest you need to go actually study church teaching. Preferably in a monastic cell with no internet access.

      • Mark Shea

        And still more narcissism. Dan Savage bullying kids half his age only inspires you to cast an admiring glance in the mirror at your own courage.

      • Ted Seeber

        I watched the speech. I can think of no “Anti-bullying legislation” that if such includes religion, would not put Dan Savage in jail for his crime. And as for his non-apologetic apology- no self-respecting OBJECTIVE jury would buy it.

  • For those upset about Mark’s using Nazis as a comparison, I might agree had I not gone to the comments section of the atheist post where I found this. While a couple attempted to suggest that Savage was over the line, the vast majority either felt he was spot on, or needed to go further. And this is not the only time Savage has done this. Just watching him interviewed on CNN was enough to chill the bones, and there was no bad language there. It was his 1. Bible = hateful bigotry, 2. We need to ban hateful bigotry in places like our schools and other public venues 3. I’ll leave you to figure out the next steps. Sorry, but being on the business end of a movement that is basically saying we don’t serve your kind anymore isn’t going to get much patience and sympathy from me.

  • If it’s not bullying when you say sodomy is sinful, it isn’t bullying when Savage says the Bible is BS.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      It is bullying when Savage singles out Christians for humiliation and mockery in a speech he is giving.

    • Mark Shea

      And yet again, a defender of homosexuality looks at a grown man bullying kids half his age and feel narcissistic self-pity. Narcissism and homosexuality: Like peas and carrots.

      • Mark, you are mistaken about me. I agree with you about the sinful nature of sodomy. I’m just asking you to apply your own gandersauce principle here, and call things what they are. Was Savage’s speech disrespectful and ignorant? Yep. Was it inappropriate for the venue? Again, yep. Was it bullying? Please.

        Alls I’m saying is that people will be more inclined to believe is when we say we love sinners and hate sins, if we can admit that they are also capable of hating Bibles while loving Christians.

        • Mark Shea

          Of course it was bullying. He’s twice the age of his victims and he made a public spectacle of them.

    • Noah D

      Wait, saying something someone did is wrong is bullying? Please.

  • Patrick

    What I don’t get is why Savage called these people “pansy-assed”. Of all the slurs he could’ve used, I’m surprised a anti-bullying homosexual would use the phrase “pansy-assed”, given that “pansy” is a term for an effeminate man.

    • Mark Shea

      Savage has a history of insulting people as secretly gay. It’s a remarkable bit of self-loathing.

  • here’s a small sample of comments from yesterday on this story, from breibart.com

    There is a really hot place in HELL that is reserved for those.faggots…

    This is exactly the kind of person Obama uses. They bring a gun to the fight. They crucify people. It’s who Obama is. Obama is a giant cesspool and these are the viruses and biohazards that seep from his pool of filth into our country.

    Well, if the Supreme court strikes down obamacare the guy won’t get his aids medicine and nature will takes it’s course, problem solved.


    The gay magots are too stupid to realize that under a Muslim President they would be the first people in this country to be eliminated. That is what is done in the middle east.


    To people like Dan Savage and Bill Mahr, it’s the Christians who are the great evil in the world. Although Christians don’t toss so do mites off of buildings like the Taliban, or stone them like the mullahs do in most Muslim countries, its the Christians they fret over. One can wonder why this apparent paradox is so. It’s simply that evil despises good. People like Savage and Mahr really have no choice. It’s all part of the package of life choices they have made.


    The only reason Danny boy doesn’t bugger Biden is that there is no room to get around Joe’s head

    Just shoot and be done with the little intolerable pansy-ass bully.
    Matter of fact just line all bullies up against the wall be they MSM, political or idealogical and pop’em

    • Art

      Sounds like hateful people from both extremes to me. So, I guess we can lump all people together now?

    • Dale Price

      Were any of the commenters invited to speak to journalism students?

    • Mark Shea

      Yes. The internet is a self-publishing venue for the demented. And this justifies a grown man bullying kids less than half his age how?

    • Nate

      I’m often amazed how often intelligent people can justify their feelings of persecution by pointing to hateful, incoherent ramblings in a news story’s comment thread.
      It happens a lot. Really smart bloggers have done this.
      Good argument proceeds by reconstructing counterarguments in the best and most charitable way. To have a good argument is to automatically ignore 100% of all comment threads from MSM websites.

  • Irenist

    Dan Savage is vulgar and distracting from civilized debate in much the same way that P.Z. Myers is. Still, I am glad that Savage has now (sort of) apologized for his recent inappropriate behavior.

    I could do without the whole “gay brownshirts” thing myself. I don’t think it’s especially conducive to level-headed discussion.

    • Ted Seeber

      And oddly enough, much as I objected to the post Leah pointed to, it does explain this man’s visceral hatred of authority to me.

  • John C

    I read a column by Midge Decter in the “National Review” over 10 years ago, in which she theorizes that the main impetus behind the radical gay rights movement is the malice of male homosexuals. She is being proven right.

  • An Atheist

    I guess Christians can dish it out, but they can’t take it. What a surprise.

    • Ted Seeber

      We at least dish out the truth, instead of attempting to change all reality to fit our personal prejudices like atheists and homosexuals do.

    • Mark Shea

      I knew I could count on your “Golden Rule” to make exceptions for grown men bullying and humiliating kids less than half their age.

      • An Atheist

        Telling the truth is now “bullying”. Uh-huh.

        • Ted Seeber

          You, like most atheists, are incapable of telling the truth because you’ve already lied to yourself and restricted your worldview to a subset of rationality.

  • (forgive the typos, working with one hand – broken arm)
    since i appear to be the token male homo in the string: it astonishes me that people will casually toss off words like “narcissim” and “malice” as being my congenital qualities. the arrogance and glibness are only exceeded by the implicit “otherness” you give me. an otherness which somehow makes the glibness OK, since it carries the assumption that i am not equal. LISTEN – THAT is the point. i will not accept your premise. you cannot attack me in such a way and expect no attempt at defense. but because the “otherness” is so foundational to your argument, my “pushing back” is treated as a symptom of … well, itself – a kind of pathology — “narcissism,” or “malice.” tautology may be satisfying. read those comments i posted from breitbart and understand what we are up against each day. i have been physically attacked. i have been fired. i have been brutally insulted. all for being gay. not whining, just explaining. i will not tolerate this any longer. it is wrong, and if the church aligns itself with my enemies it is not me who has made it thus.

    • Ted Seeber

      If you will not accept our premise, on an orthodox Catholic site, that all men are sinners (including ourselves!) and that homosexuality is essentially the *same* sin as heterosexual promiscuity and a lack of respect for Apostolic Authority in the realm of chastity and human sexuality; then I fail to see why we should recognize YOUR premise that YOUR PERSONAL FAILINGS with respect to chastity means that the whole entire church should modify their beliefs to include YOUR personal sin.

      That’s what we mean by Narcissism- believing that because you’re special, your sins are somehow OK and you are better than us and we need to change to accommodate you.

      • not asking you to change any thing but one, and it’s a demand, not a request: keep your church’s dogma out of secular affairs. alternatively, give up any claim to tax exemption, or to any fictitious federal $ entitlement.

        • Noah D

          Excellent. Shall we start with the prohibition on stealing and killing?

    • Mark Shea

      Me. Me. Me. I. I. I. The subject was high school kids being bullied. Get over yourself.

      • An Atheist

        Shorter Mark Shea: Stop being so uppity, queer.

        • Mark Shea

          And you’re done here.

      • An Atheist

        Sorry, but I am passionate about this. There’s an epidemic in this country of LGBT teens committing suicide out of utter despair due to all the bigotry and hatred directed against them (such as a certain church calling them “intrinsically disordered”). Let me know when there’s even ONE instance of a Catholic teen committing suicide because they’re bullied for being straight, OK?

        • Mark Shea

          Nobody’s defending abuse of gays here and you know it. You, however, are adamantly defending abuse of these kids by a bully.

          And though I can’t point to a Catholic teen committing suicide because of homosexuals, I can point to one being murdered.

  • Dan Savage is vile. There’s simply no other way to put it. He is also symptomatic of the nadir we, as a culture, have reached in our ability to argue and rationally discuss issues. You can file Dan Savage away in exactly the same drawer as Keith Olberman, John Derbyshire,, Ann Coulter or Al Franken. There’s simply too much attention and too much money at stake for any of these people to moderate their speech. “Winning” arguments are now those arguments to which the opposition takes most of its offense, not arguments that are constructed on a foundation of reason.

  • Brandon

    So, you compare a guy to a Nazi because he made comments about the Bible that you disagree with (do you even substantively disagree with his statements), but you’d like to inform the queer community that we’re OK with you as long as we agree that he’s a terrible person? No, I think I’m going to go with you being the ignorant bigot, not Savage.

    • Mark Shea

      No. i compare a guy to a brownshirt because he bullies kids half his age as “pansy asses” when they quietly get up and leave the room rather than sit there and endure a verbal assault. And you defend him and pity yourself.

      • Brandon

        Ah, calling kids “pansy asses” and apologizing for it almost immediately is the equivalent of being a brownshirt. I see. Yeah, I think I’ll stick with the assessment that you’re an ignorant bigot.

        • Mark Shea

          Sort of apologizing when you get caught and make national headlines, while not apologizing for the multiple other times you have been a bully and not gotten caught and made national headlines is rather typical brownshirt behavior.

          • Brandon

            My point stands entirely. You’ve compared someone who’s never (as far as I know) inflicted harm on anyone to a Nazi, then demanded that the queer community redeem itself by joining you in this condemnation, lest they all be compared to Nazis as well. You’re certainly quite the entitled individual.

            • Mark Shea

              So publicly humiliating a bunch of quiet kids is not harming them. Well then, I guess the whole anti-bullying thing Savage is on about is a scam. Amazing your narcissism is.

              • Brandon

                Yes, the kids walking out of that room surely looked humiliated. I’m sure they’re cut to the bone by his actions. What a Nazi he is!

                Ah well, I guess I’m a Nazi for not joining in condemning a man for being too rude for your tastes.

                • Mark Shea

                  No, just a coward. Would that more people had Leah’s integrity.

    • Ted Seeber

      No, we compare a guy to a NAZI because he refuses to let our religion exist because we happen to say one small part of his behavior is sinful.

      • Brandon

        Oh really, he refuses to let it exist? A lot of killing and maiming he’s done? Or just calling out some of the crummier parts of the Bible? There seems a striking difference here, but do carry on with that persecution complex. I wouldn’t want you to get to thinking that the idea of gays bullying Christians in the US is incoherent.

        Someone’s sexual orientation isn’t a small part of who they are. Are all of the romantic relationships you’ve had in your life just a small part of behavior, or actually a rather important element in life?

        • Ted Seeber

          “Oh really, he refuses to let it exist? A lot of killing and maiming he’s done? ”

          Given the changes they’re making in the law to label Catholics as terrorists and have the right to indefinitely detain us, it’s on it’s way.

          ” Or just calling out some of the crummier parts of the Bible? ”

          No, that just makes him yet another unbelieving fundamentalist, no different than Rev. Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church or Richard Dawkins.

          “There seems a striking difference here, but do carry on with that persecution complex. I wouldn’t want you to get to thinking that the idea of gays bullying Christians in the US is incoherent.”

          It’s not just incoherent- it’s happening. I remember the day when I went from being that nice liberal Catholic kid with a predilection for Apostolic Communism, Civil union rights for gays, and liking nice Peter Paul and Mary folk music in my mass, to being the evil Catholic Prejudiced Bigot Traditionalist Terrorist whose family deserves to be burnt out of our home for our views: March 3, 2004. Without changing a single idea, I was attacked as a homophobe.

          It was then that I was convinced that the gay agenda is about changing society to fit their sin rather than being a member of society and protesting peacefully.

          This is just the latest in the diatribe.

        • Noah D

          I wouldn’t want you to get to thinking that the idea of gays bullying Christians in the US is incoherent.

          If I stood up in one of my college classes and said, ‘Homosexual acts are wrong and sinful, and those who have that attraction should remain chaste’, I would most likely find myself up on ‘academic’ charges, and could possibly be expelled. If a homosexual got up and said ‘What I do is just fine, and the Church is deeply, morally wrong to say it’s wrong, and should change their ways’, they’d be applauded.

          Remind me again, who is in power here?

  • it’s been fun. nap time — here’s some lovely music.



  • An Atheist

    Gotta love who homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible, but slavery is just a cultural condition that God apparently can’t do anything about. So, “slaves, obey your masters”, but gays better be celibate!

    • Ted Seeber

      Maybe you should read that Bible before you condemn it: Homosexuality is a sin by the Bible, and Slaves are to be treated by their masters as adopted members of the family. Which you’d KNOW if you had ever bothered to read the Letter to Philemon or actually read the 4 verses preceding Ephesians 6:5.

  • @Leah: Your blog is going in my reader feed!

  • Jay

    I’m just blown away by the suggestion that “criticizing people’s beliefs” = bullying. So Savage, in a public speech not directed at any particular person, made fun of people who hold inconsistent, ludicrously outdated views based on the precise words of a millenia-old culture dump.* Compare that to, you know, actual bullying — as in, physical and emotional abuse directed against particular individuals.

    Do we really want to water down the concept of “bullying” to mean “criticizing people in a way that makes them uncomfortable”? Lots of people belief ridiculous things, often in the name of religion, and when you point that out,they don’t like it. Is the author really suggesting that nobody’s beliefs can ever be questioned, so long as a person call those beliefs “religious”? And that to make fun of certain religious ideas, no matter how ridiculous, is nothing less than bullying? Please.

    *Yes, I’m aware that Catholics have elaborate rationalizations of the Bible that ignore these uncomfortable passages, but that doesn’t change the fact that many people do rely on those passages to justify their beliefs and actions.

    • Mark Shea

      Calling out a group of quiet teens half your age as pansy asses and humiliating them publicly is bullying.

      • Jay

        So he insulted a group of students for walking out in the middle of his speech, and used mild profanity in doing so. Maybe that’s a little rude (but then again, so was the walk-out). All I have to say to that is “eh.” If you want to say “insults + mild profanity + teens + adult speaker = bullying,” then I’m not going to argue definitions with you. But it’s not the same sort of “bullying” that Savage himself had made an effort to oppose, so it’s disingenuous to use that term when trying to argue that he’s a hypocrite committing the same offenses he himself condemns.

        • Mark Shea

          Thanks for the able defense of bullying hypocrites.

          • Jay

            Out of curiosity, do you have any citations of a time where Savage has decried as “bullying” conduct similar to what happened here? That is, some occasion where an anti-gay speaker make comments critical of homosexuals in a public speech at a voluntary event, and where Savage called it bullying? If such an example exists, I’ll happily concede that he jumped too eagerly on that term then, just as I feel you’re doing now. But if not, I think you need to back off this whole “hypocrisy” charge.

            • Mark Shea

              Dude. When a grown man calls out kids half his age for public humiliation, it’s bullying. When he does it while acting as the Face of the Anti Bullying Movement, it’s hypocrisy. if you want to go all lawyer speak and try to split hairs defending it, that’s your lookout. But you just like ridiculous trying to defends this disgusting behavior. Even Savage has backpedaled on it (sort of). You should stop trying to defend it.

              • Jay

                Okay, forget the word “bullying” — you can define it however you want, and it’s not really important. What we should care about is the concrete behavior actually at issue, not the label we give it.

                You’re accusing Savage of being a hypocrite, which generally implies that he’s guilty of doing something that he himself has condemned. All I’m asking for here is an example of the “that he himself has condemned” component. You seem quite impassioned about your hypocrisy charge, so I assumed there was at least some sort of example on your mind (or if not a perfect example, at least something close to it). If you do come up with something, I’d be curious to see it.

                • Mark Shea

                  Humiliating and shaming innocent teenagers publically by calling them pansy asses for not choosing to endure a torrent of abuse in front of their peers is, for people with normal social and affective skills, called “bullying”. Had a speaker stood up and begun to deride gays as Savage was deriding these kids–had a speaker called gay “pansy-asses” you can bet your eyeteeth Savage would have called that bullying. And he would be right. Why are you still defending something even Savage has acknowledged was (sort of) out of line?

                  • bob

                    Is there any way of knowing in advance when the Tour De Savage is appearing next? Does he publish a speaking schedule? It would be great fun to prepare students in advance to shout him down, to stand and yell back at this moron when he attempts a speech — especially if it’s a public school. He needs a lot of what he’s gotten away with to be thrown back at him. It’s very long overdue. If it happened once it would happen many more times. I don’t think he has the fortitude to put up with it.

                    • Mark Shea

                      You want to imitate what you most despise about his behavior. Why?

                    • bob

                      Well, honestly I like a good “Great is Diana of Ephesus!!” moment when the right target presents itself. I don’t think it’s wrong to shout down a liar and a thug. Thugishness doesn’t deserve the same considerations that civilized discussion does. Savage has made himself a swine. The offended kids shouldn’t have left, they should not give ground to a swinish person how ever “old”. Respect what is respectable, give disrespect where it’s due. If the idiots in a public school (I’m disappointed to not see this as reason #gazillion and one why one should homeschool, by the way, this was a gift) bring such pollution in to insult my child I’d hope my child would respond, loudly. He shouldn’t endure it, I shouldn’t have to pay for it nor should you — and you do.

  • B.E. Ward

    Why is Dan Savage so popular?

  • B.E. Ward

    Joe: just out of curiosity, how did you find this blog?

  • Manwe

    “Why is Dan Savage so popular?”

    Good question.

  • Manwe

    Just watched the video, and I have to say, why Savage’s complete misrepresentation of scripture is disturbing, even more so is the cheers from the audience. What Dan said was stupid, ignorant and his later comments bully like, but the audience thing made shivers run down my spine. Boy, as a younger Catholic I can’t wait to grow up in a society that views Christians and their beliefs as evil, thats the future I’m looking forward too. The irony here is incredible, in trying to stamp out “hate” (that is unbelief is the goodness of homosexuality) they creat actual hatered for another group of people! As someone who was bullied by a teacher in back in highschool, I’m not averse to the plight of the bullied. But sorry guys, homosex advocates live on bullying, name calling, ingorance and general vileness. All are not like this, but a big whopping chunk of them are to be sure.

    • Manwe

      Interesting anecdote:
      The teacher that I mentioned who bullied me, was an antibully activist (he was even awarded a big reward on this later in life, specifically for his helping to create pro-gay groups student groups). Go figure! What I love about the whole thing was that he bullied me BECAUSE he percieved me to be a bully (which is laughable given that I was as quite as a mouse in school and bothered no one). I have always imagined this was because I was a big guy, and him being a very short man, may have been intimidated by me.

  • Madame Suggia

    Really. Completely, utterly and jaw-droppingly insane.
    Just treat everyone as you’d wish to be treated and we’re all good.

  • Bionic Hips

    Uh, did anyone here actually LOOK at the faces of “children” walking out – they were laughing and smiling. If you cannot listen to another point of view how can you call yourself journalists?
    It is NOT bullying to hear another point of view. I am sorry, but those walking out were rude.

    • Mark Shea

      It is bullying to call kids half your age “pansy asses” because they will not sit there and take your abuse.

    • If this was a christian saying how bad is homosexuality, how it is a sin, and how stupid homosexuals are, do you think that would be good? Of course not. This is the same thing.

  • Rhinestone Suderman

    Actually, what’s really shocking about this story is that, when Savage began his little tirade, none of the adult men present (or the older boys) walked up on the stage and punched him in the mouth. None of the adult women present went on stage and slapped him, and/or told him to get off the stage.

    Nope. Savage berated the Christian students, who (quite rightly) refused to take his BS, and walked out. The others all clap, clap, clapped, for politically correct feel-goodism. None of the adults did, or said, anything.

    Gee, why are our schools in such trouble, with all their violence, and abuse? I dunno. . . must be evil spirits, or, maybe, Republicans! It’s a real head-scratcher! /Sarc.

  • Rhinestone Suderman

    If someone, like, say, Fred Phelps (a registered Democrat, by the way) stood and declared, “God hates your for your sins, and you’re going to Hell!” he’d have been (quite rightly) booted out.

    If someone were addressing a Hindu Ashram, and started shouting “What’s wrong with all you grass eaters? Why don’t you eat a nice burger? Why are you so dumb as to worship cows?” he’d again (quite rightly), have been tossed out on his keister.

    A homosexual “activist” berates Christians, and—-nothing happens? Who’se really got the power, here?

    (Of course, we all know what would have happened if Savage had stood up before a Moslem audience and said, “The Koran is just B*S*T! It would not be pretty. And the media would comdemn him as “Islamophobic”. Who’se got the real power, here?)

  • Well, he is kind of right, just look at Fred Phelps, by looking at him you would think that the bible is the most sexualist and homophobic book in the world (when it’s not, heck, the OT makes only passing mention to homosexual male sex, the NT is more explicit and even there is just a passing mention) but he also ignores how there is a good number of christians who support LGBT rights, including famous singer Lady Gaga and Katy Perry, who are catholic, heck, Obama is christian and he supports him. Also, why doesn’t he point out at jews too? It again shows how people only target christianity for the mere fact of being christianity.

  • rick hatfield

    dan savage is a hypocrite nazi and I would love for the opportunity to tell him in person. I would love to see him rant against muslims but instead he attacks Christaians. Well I welcome an attack from you. I love to take on bullies and you are defiantly a bully against Christians or anyone who thinks differently than you. Just like a good little nazi should. What a punk you are dan savage.