The Theology of the Booty

The Theology of the Booty December 9, 2014

Protestant Fundamentalists out in deep space advocate husbands spanking their wives to correct their disobedience.

And yes, it’s not just Protestant Fundamentalists who are into this. Some not-at-all-creepy Reactionary Catholics think this is cool beans too.  (You really need to scroll through a couple pages of the discussion to get a full sense of the contours of this sick weirdness that whipsaws between fantasizing about beating women (for their own good) and then fantasizes about killing “truly abusive” men who “really” beat women.  Reactionary Catholicism at its most repellent and alienating.)

In other news about the strange affinity Fundamentalists and Reactionary Catholics have, Now The End Begins continues the project of making it extremely difficult to tell which of the two demographics is writing it.

The irony is that the One World Religion will be comprised of Fundamentalist Protestants and Reactionary Catholics united in their paranoid loathing of Pope Francis.

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  • antigon

    ‘One World Religion will be comprised of Fundamentalist Protestants and Reactionary Catholics united in their paranoid loathing of Pope Francis.’
    Not so! It will be comprised of Birthers & Truthers united in their paranoid loathing of Barack Obama, who, like His Holiness, is never criticized by anybody except…oh, wait.

    • petey

      “Barack Obama, who, like His Holiness, is never criticized by anybody except…oh, wait.”

      < : D

  • jroberts548

    It’s a good thing these whackjobs never actually read their bibles. It would be a tragedy if they ever found Hosea.

    • carlzilla

      Who are “whackjobs” and what makes you fit to judge ?

      • jroberts548

        The people who beat their wives and think it’s okay are whackjobs.

        I’m fit to judge because they’re whackjobs.

        • carlzilla

          Lots of whackjobs use the bible to justify beating their wives, Satan is a biblical expert, can quote bible frontwards and backwards does this make him good ? Reading the bible without guidance of the Holy Spirit can cause much damage.

          • jroberts548

            Yes, I agree, idiots reading the bible idiotically do much damage. E.g., the idiots the post above is talking about.

            Did you not look at the original post? Are you just commenting randomly?

            • carlzilla

              I guess I’m just a whackjob,pardon me for interrupting this intellectual discourse. When I see terms like reactionary ,whackjobs or the worst ,conservative, they seem divisive of the unity that is true Catholicism. I am an idiot ,unlike you I am totally dependent on God, just a random commenting fool.

              • jroberts548

                So you agree that the people who use the Bible to justify beating their wives are wrong. You think calling them whackjobs harms Catholic unity, but suggesting that their interpretation of the Bible is diabolic or satanic is okay?

                Fine, they aren’t whackjobs. They’re devil-worshippers. Is that better?

                • carlzilla

                  Right, you are attacking the behavior not the sinner. Fair enough ?

                • carlzilla

                  Merry Christmas jroberts 548,keep your passion, your alright brother. Peace be with you.

                  • petey

                    “your alright brother”

                    what makes you fit to judge that?

              • chezami

                The conservative anti-charism of discernment is on splendid display here. Beating a woman: no big deal. Pointing out that one and only one demographic is the source of the kind of personality that goes for this filth? O the humanity! The Party of Personal Responsibility continues to impress.

                • antigon

                  I don’t know Mr. Shea. You really think claiming that ‘unlike you, I am totally dependent on God’ is…somehow…Mr. Nor notwithstanding…I don’t know…deserving at the very least of a solid spanking?

  • Stu

    And yet again, proof that you can find anything on the Internet IF you choose to go looking for it. But it does create “clicks”.

    • chezami

      I didn’t go looking for it. You should stop bearing false witness.

      • freddy

        I can kind of get Stu’s point since the fisheaters thing is dated two years ago and the Mail article first appeared in 2013. Why this is all jumping into your in-basket now is weird, but I think Stu can be forgiven for drawing the conclusion he did, however erroneously.

      • Stu

        Bearing false witness? You mean like the time that you charged that I encourage anti-Semitism? Or when you routinely mischaracterize the positions that some people take in disagreeing with you in order to paint them in the worst possible light? Or when you call into the question the daily duties of a priest without really knowing him?

        Mark, you are so down in the weeds in finding ways to go after your “enemies” that you don’t even know if the sun is out. For a guy who is “Catholic and Enjoying It” it is nothing but non-stop
        negativity and divisiveness from you in sifting through all of the various types of “Catholics” that you don’t agree with. And of this one group that you routinely judge, the so-called “greatest Catholics of all time”, or reactionaries or traditionalists, you somehow manage to keep current on all of their various
        blogs, forums, etc. no matter how obscure. Really. You actually link to traditionalist blogs that I had no idea even existed and I am supposedly a “traditionalist”. And obviously you are very concerned about what happens on Fisheaters or RC or countless other so-called reactionary hang outs. You are absolutely white-hot, hyper-fixated on this small group of people and it shows.
        And indeed, I think you go looking for this stuff on a daily basis. Either that, or your fans send it to you because they know how much you enjoy it. (So if it is the latter, then I apologize for my initial assertion).

        This was once a great blog. It still has moments of greatness. But increasingly, it’s “Hunting Catholic Reactionaries and Enjoying It.” It would be nice to see you attempt to build bridges. You like to quote Chesterton and Lewis quite often. Perhaps you could take that a step further and go for their style as well.

        • JB

          BAM. Stu, when you lay it down, you lay it DOWN. Been feelin this about catholic&enjoyingit for a long time.

  • Kelly Reineke

    Two of my favorite John Wayne movies are the Quiet Man and McClintock!. What makes them funny is the outlandishness of it all: “a stick to beat the lady? Why, thank you!”

    • Newp Ort

      I was flipping channels and happened upon the spanking scene from McClintock! I couldn’t believe what I was watching.

      • PalaceGuard

        One of the reasons I loathe John Wayne.

  • Cypressclimber

    You do fish in strange waters sometimes…

    • chezami

      Not fishing. This stuff just jumps into my boat.

  • Newp Ort

    I know they claim they aren’t, but these people are engaging in sex fantasies. I don’t see a problem with that as such; it can be a unitive act, and it’s pretty vanilla as kinks go. But acting like it’s good advice for people in general and even worse there’s some scriptural basis for it is is idiotic and kind of scandalous.

    • chezami

      No. These people are engaging in Power fantasies. Go and read those Fisheasters pages. Seriously disturbing power fantasies. The more these people talk, the more relieved I am they are completely marginalized.

      • Rob B.

        In the interest of justice, I’d like to point out that Mr. Shea is linking to the discussion forums on Fisheaters, the section of the website where the most radical elements of traditional Catholicism shout loudest and longest (which is why I no longer frequent them). The other areas of the websites provide quite a bit of good information on traditional Catholic practices and the Latin Mass. So far as I know, Vox Clamatis (the website’s proprietor) does not advocate the behavior that Mr. Shea is describing here.

        • mcv

          Vox herself participated in that thread and brought into evidence a lazy wife with a dirty house . She thought that wife deserved a spanking, or at least should have been compelled by force to the sink to wash dishes. So, yes she’s pro spanking of wives, at least in some instances.

          • Rob B.

            My apologies. However, the “instance” she discusses is an extreme one with children being put in danger. I’d also like to point out that it looks like the majority of posters on that particular topic (including my lady wife) found the notion of spanking one’s wife as disturbing as Mr. Shea does.

            I’m not sure why Mr. Shea takes such an aggressive stance against traditional Catholics, but I hope he and other posters here understand that the “spittle-flecked nutties” don’t represent trads as a whole.

            • “However, the “instance” she discusses is an extreme one with children being put in danger.”

              And if that is the case, the solution is to take the children out of danger, and do one’s best to get help for the wife. If, on the other hand, the wife was always like this and her behavior can’t be attributed to depression, trauma, mental illness, or severe strain, then one wonders why the husband married her in the first place. Hitting her or forcing her to take care of the children won’t actually help anything.

            • Silvina

              I have many friends that are traditional Catholics, and I know they would be horrified at the ideas expressed in that thread. But the mere fact that someone claiming to love the Church .
              and her traditions more than anyone else could EVER justify domestic violence is more disturbing than fundamentalist protestants justifying it. After all, Protestants do not have the Magisterium. But a Catholic? I don’t care which liturgy they like, they are truly in a very dangerous place for their souls…

          • norcalrunner

            That’s so insanely disgusting and gross I don’t even know where to begin. Just…just…sickening and filthy and vile. Honestly, this is the stuff of Satan.

            • Rob B.

              Did you read the actual post? As I indicate below, mcv does a bit of misrepresentation here…

              • norcalrunner

                There is no “misrepresentation” of any of this. Any hitting of other people is wrong, wrong, wrong, disgusting, bad, sick, evil, trashy, low-class, etc., etc., etc., and I am not going to click through to a filthy, dirty, trashy, classless, ignorant, uneducated, dirty, sick site that advocates this sort of thuggish, abusive, sexually perverted, filthy, ugly, behavior.

                Clear now?

                • Rob B.

                  Crystal.

                  • norcalrunner

                    Good. People who hit other people are animals. Full stop. People who think there’s actually a legitimate discussion to be had about people hitting other people are just as bad.

                    • Hezekiah Garrett

                      Yeah, but they aren’t as bad as people who routinely dehumanize whole swaths of the species.

                      Surely you have something intelligent to say on this subject, rather than continuing to channel Charlton Heston in Planet of the Apes?

                    • norcalrunner

                      Nope. Not when it comes to filthy animals who hit their children, spouses or anyone else and think it’s a good thing. There is nothing “intelligent” to say about thugs who hit people other than that they’re thugs who hit people. Sorry, if you hit your kids, your wife, or your neighbor, you belong to the group of people who are low-class, uneducated, ignorant, abusive animals.

                      Although I suppose it isn’t really fair to animals to lump them in with abusive neanderthals.

                    • Josephine Kelly

                      I have an autistic son whom I regularly have to pin to the ground to keep him from hurting others. It isn’t pretty. Most people would agree that a spanking would be less unnerving. We have fallen down together. If I don’t do this he will bash my 4 year old repeatedly. Am I a filthy animal? These outburst can happen in a matter of a second. It’s grab him and restrain him or somebody gets hurt. I get punched ,kicked and headbutted while this is going on. It’s hurts both of us but when he calms down its like nothing ever happened and he as sweet as can be.

                      I was abused as a child and I understand the kind of people who do that. So many would respond to education. Your viper tounge would be cruel and hateful and leave them with less knowledge than before. Honestly if you can’t give loving and human feedback keep your mouth closed. The moment you see someone as less than a human being, a person made in the image of almighty god from the dust of stars predestined to be here from the foundation of the creation, walk away. At that point you have nothing to say to them that is worth hearing. They say you can’t give the live of Christ if you don’t have it and nothing in your post would convince me you did.

                    • norcalrunner

                      No — you’re not HITTING your child.

                      My “viper” tongue is reserved for animals who hit children. When I see people proudly hitting children because they think it makes them better Christians, then, yeah, I’m damned quick to rip them right down where they belong, which is in the sewer. There is NO excuse for hitting children. None. Zero. To try to justify hitting children is merely trying to justify one’s own laziness and abusiveness.

                    • Josephine Kelly

                      Do you think it doesn’t hurt to be physically held down? Probably far more than a quick smack and the bum. You are clearly very angry at someone but you aren’t better than them. Looking down your nose at people doesn’t make you superior to them. It does however put you in a poor position to minister to them. Heal from whatever broke you and try looking at those you sneer at as actual humans. Because they are. Deserving of love and compassion. They are the weak, hungry and imprisoned that we as Christians are meant to love feed and keep company. It’s truly sad that you can’t see that. They are broken people who make mistakes. We all are.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Are you really so thick that you can’t see the difference between your unique situation and parents who choose to hit their kids when there are other, better options available? Really?

                    • antigon

                      Nor, maybe if you were to promote your views with a little more bombast, that would better help get them across.
                      *
                      Albeit the identical bombast dozens of times for it to really work.

                    • norcalrunner

                      It is way past time playing nicey-nice with adults who hit kids. They’re filth.

                    • antigon

                      Not sure that’s bombastic enough Nor. May be time to get that thesaurus out again.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Not necessary. You’re a loser and a thug.

                    • antigon

                      Since, biologically speaking, all people are animals, you finally get credit for posting something that isn’t just utterly rabid, Ncr. Hope you quite while you’re ahead.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Ah, you must be one of those abusive thugs who hits kids.

                • antigon

                  Nor – Give that Thesaurus a kiss for me, eh?

                  • norcalrunner

                    Piss off, you piece of garbage.

                    • antigon

                      Now, now. Sticks & stones (& spankings!), but names?

                    • norcalrunner

                      Meh. You are less than nothing in my eyes, and, according to the Bible, God’s eyes.

        • chezami

          Translation: Pay attention to how Reactionaries like to think of themselves in theory, not to how their sick and weird actions play out in practice. They are not a creepy power-fixated sect full of violent fantasies and the lust to dominate. They are a chosen and holy Remnant who remain small, not because they repel normal people, but because their awesome holiness drives away the wicked with the radiance of their superior purity and holiness.

          • Rob B.

            You know, you should really stop hiring the same guy who translates Pope Francis’s statements… 🙂

            You said yourself earlier that “bearing false witness” is a sin. It’s a shame that you seem to think that that doesn’t apply to you as well as to the rest of us. If you’d actually looked at the forum you criticized, you would have seen that the majority of posters were as disgusted as you were about this. You are tarring all trads with the same brush in much the same fashion as anti-theists paint all priests as pedophiles. Please stop.

            • chezami

              No. I’m not tarring all Trads with the same brush. I’m demanding that Trads take some responsibility for the absolutely vile witness so many Trads give instead of pretending that when normal people react with revulsion to Traddery its all due to the fact that Trads are so pure and neo-Catholic vermin are all just a pack of lukewarm semi-apostates.

              • Stu

                A few guys on Fisheaters = “so many Trads.

                I guess there are only about 23 of us in the World.

                *****On the edit. (10DEC2014) Wow, Mark. Just like on Facebook the other day, you block me here too. The only other place that has happened? Rorate Caeli for disagreeing openly with their extreme viewpoints. You are in a select club and fitting as well.*****

              • Rob B.

                Why should I, as a “Trad,” be forced to take responsibility (and be viciously criticized) for specific positions that I do not espouse and indeed revile as much as you do? The revulsion you feel to the words and actions of some (and not even a majority) Trads is perfectly justified; your attribution to these ideas to all Trads (as evidenced by your refusal to mention the similar revulsion of other Trads on the Fisheaters forum) is the problem.

                For the record, I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass while seeing the Mass established in the 1960s as perfectly valid. I also reject the idea that Catholics who believe otherwise are somehow inferior to myself in either faith or works (most are probably superior). I respect and love Pope Francis as my shepherd and pope, as I did Pope Benedict XVI and Pope St. John Paul II before him. What’s more, I have argued as much to the “toxic trads” that I interact with, who represent an extremely vocal minority (especially in the wilds of the Internet).

                So please stop attacking those who would be your allies. Your work is important and I honor it and you. But your rage at traditional Catholics is misplaced.

                • chezami

                  Trads used to grasp the notion of doing penance for the sins other others–especially others who make a big point of being Trads themselves. We do penance for the sins of Catholics particularly.

                  • Rob B.

                    So suffering your “slings and arrows” (however ridiculous they may be) is a penitential act? Fair enough, I’ll offer them up for you and for all. But don’t expect me to meekly stand by and not call them unjust.

                    • chezami

                      No. Doing penance for Reactionary weirdos who long to beat their wives is a penitential act. Deflecting attention from that subculture’s many many proud and impenitent members is not.

                    • Rob B.

                      There you are with “many many” again. How many trads do you actually know? I know quite a few in real life and none (repeat, none) would subscribe to this idea. The Internet RadTrads do not represent the whole of the group; please stop acting as if they did.

                    • chezami

                      I have interacted with Trads hundreds and hundreds of times on the internet and, like it or not, the interactions have been overwhelmingly with proud, vicious, Pharisaic, bitter, paranoid, anti-semitic, and creepy people. And I am constantly told that these are isolated incidents, that it’s actually my fault because I’m a worthless neo-Cat Protestant convert, that I’m conspiring to destroy the True Church (which they along constitute). I have no interest left in hearing about how Traditionalism is really this great source of renewal and tthe future of the Church. It’s not. It’s a movement made up of people who cannot face squarely the fact that it is a hotbed of pathologies covered in an boutique interest in aesthetics. When I see some humility from Trads, I listen. But that is a very rare occurrence and there are only a few Trads I’ve ever met capable of mustering it. Mostly it’s butthurt narcissism, denial, and blameshifting. Sorry if that offends you, but that is my overwhelming experience from your tribe.

                    • Rob B.

                      I am sorry. I will pray for them and for the hurt that they have obviously done you.

                      I hope we can part as friends, Mr. Shea. As I said, I admire your work (especially your very recent dissection of the Torture Report) and your conversion story. You are in an ideal position to speak the Truth.

                    • chezami

                      I’m sorry I lost my temper with you Rob. Please forgive me. And don’t leave. Your contributions are welcome here.

                    • Rob B.

                      I accept your apology without reservation. 🙂

                    • obpoet

                      “a hotbed of pathologies covered in a boutique interest in aesthetics”. Damn, that is good writing. More jewels like that please. It makes digging through your prolific-ness worthwhile.

                    • antigon

                      Mark in light of my last post above, it seems not wholly illegitimate to post a slight edit of the specifics but not substance in your post above, albeit focusing on another group said to be possessed of unsavory types.
                      *
                      The approach is that in recognizing something skewered about the post here, you’ll see that is true of the one that said virtually the same thing above.
                      *
                      ‘I have interacted with Jews hundreds and hundreds of times on the internet and, like it or not, the interactions have been overwhelmingly with proud, vicious, Pharisaic, bitter, paranoid, and creepy people. And I am constantly told that these are isolated incidents, that it’s actually my fault because I’m a worthless Catholic convert, that I’m conspiring to destroy the Chosen (which they alone constitute). I have no interest left in hearing about how Judaism is really this great source of renewal and the future of the country. It’s not. It’s a movement made up of people who cannot face squarely that it is a hotbed of pathologies covered in a boutique interest in power. When I see some humility from Jews, I listen. But that is a very rare occurrence and there are only a few Jews I’ve ever met capable of mustering it. Mostly it’s butthurt narcissism, denial, and blameshifting. Sorry if that offends you, but that is my overwhelming experience from your tribe.’

              • antigon

                Dear Mr. Shea:
                *
                Since people called & who call themselves Trads are Catholics, & all Catholics are traditionalists in some sense by definition, I guess that, like you, I’m some sort of a Trad since I’m Catholic. So as a Catholic & thus a Trad I accept your challenge & do not pretend that when normal people are repulsed by foulness or nonsense labeled Traddery, it is because they are repelled by purity, but agree it’s due to what’s repellent.
                *
                Yet again, while repelled by opposition to Obama based on racist uncharity & obliged to say so when it comes into view, it does not follow that every argument against him from say a Tea-Partyish Catholic disposition need preface the observation with a denunciation of racism. And this despite that folks with an agenda (whether or not they realize it) insist otherwise.
                *
                Damn (metaphorically) the racists, & the nutballs too. But to metaphorical hell also the insistence that every discussion of Obama must center on racism, or every dispute among Catholics (whether labelled trad, neo-Catholic or neo-Pelagian) must focus on the comparable racists among them, over against the substance of the argument.
                *
                Just as real victims & indeed the meaning of anti-Semitism have been debased by its promiscuous & tendentious use when unwarranted, so does the Reactionary charge lose force when comparably used as an all-purpose swear word meant not least to cast aspersion against anybody with whom its invoker might disagree.
                *
                May one thus, comparable to yours above, also make a demand that you take some responsibility for denouncing the growing use of this term in an unjust, unwarranted, what some might even call vile, uncharitable & thus sinful manner?

          • Stu

            And you were discussing “bearing false witness” with me.

          • Jassuz8

            I’m not a trad, nor a visiter of “fisheaters,” and I really should stop spending time here….ugh. But everyone deserves a fair shake. Really, they do.

            You posted page 12 of a ridiculous thread. Did it take you until page 12 to find someone who hinted at the possibility that men should ACTUALLY spank their wives? Even on that page, most rejected the idea. But, hey, let’s start with page one…which is still stupid, but it was not in any way intended to support the idea that spanking your wives is a good thing.

            Is it the “trads” that you’re upset with?

            Page one from Mark Shea’s fisheater wife-spanking absurdity (for the truly bored folks!): http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.php?topic=3452645.0

      • Newp Ort

        lol power and sex fantasies being different things. The Venn diagram is practically a circle.

        What’s wrong w fantasy? Or at least this one. Seriously – how is this harmful or outside the bounds of marriage ? People don’t choose what turns them on.

        What we definitely agree is very messed up is people that don’t recognize in themselves that it’s fantasy, even worse think it’s rooted in scripture and they advocate it to others.

      • Newp Ort

        one other thing – that first link you posted says Protestant Fundamentalists. I don’t see anything on that site that’s linked to any religion at all.

      • antigon

        Maybe. Tho could be the nutball power thing is but rationale for indulging the naughty hanky-spanky.

    • cmfe

      Please don’t conflate consent with Stockholm Syndrome.

  • cmfe

    There’s a blog, “A Cry for Justice”, that serves to remedy the misogyny in Evangelical circles that assist abusers in keeping wives under their control. They do a great job of dissecting the cognitive dissonance that allows men to “Biblically” abuse. I wish this stuff were not common. Thanks, Mark, this stuff thrives when people don’t have the stomach to see it in the full light of day.

  • Conservative American Voter

    This gives a whole new meaning to “turn the other cheek”…

    That sad attempt at humor aside, I regret that I clicked on the link to fish eaters…didn’t grow up in a house where a man hits a woman and is still called a man…and this spanking thing seems to be straying from what is good and true…my opinion, of course, and my opinion matters little.

  • LSpinelli

    I think people who advocate wife spanking should think about how they would feel if their dad spanked their mom.

    Amen. I didn’t have the stomach to read all 16 pages of the Fisheaters link’s lunacy.

  • tj.nelson

    I was under the impression that spanking was permitted as foreplay… I think Christopher West may have discussed it in one of his seminars?

    What?

    • norcalrunner

      I just threw up in my mouth a little…

      What the hell is wrong with people…?

      • tj.nelson

        It’s a joke.

        • D.T. McCameron

          It’s a good one!

        • norcalrunner

          Except that it’s so believable…that’s the thing…CW is kinda creepy that way, ya know?

    • Tom

      Uh…is it not? I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be.

  • Shawna Mathieu

    I looked at fisheaters, got as far as someone saying that a marriage is doomed to failure if the wife isn’t at least a little bit AFRAID of her husband, and I had to stop.

    • antigon

      Yup, kind of lost interest too at that point. Especially since everybody knows – if they’re married to a southern Italian (ah! like me!) at any rate – that’s it’s fear of the bride that keeps things percolating.

      • JohnE_o

        Heh – as one who is married to a Hispanic woman, I know what you mean. Something about the passionate Latin temperament, I imagine…

        • antigon

          Yup, it’s kept me engaged (& terrified) for 32 years & counting.

          • JohnE_o

            15 years for us, but have enjoyed all of it.

  • JohnE_o

    Spank your wife as Jesus spanks The Church?

    I dunno, the metaphor doesn’t seem to work all that well…
    —————–

    Spent a few minutes wading around that fisheaters site – I’m going to go wipe my brain down with some bleach.

  • SteveP

    You seem to be forgetting why “bad, wicked, naughty Zoot!” is humorous: the male flees.

  • norcalrunner

    The really, really creepy side of all this is that studies show that female children who’ve been hit (oh, ‘scuse me, “spanked”…ugh…same difference) by their fathers are much more likely to be sexually promiscuous and engage in exactly this kind of sexual perversion. So Daddy not only hits Mommy, but he hits his daughters, and they grow up to be the next crop of victims for thugs like Daddy.

    • antigon

      ‘Studies show that female children who’ve been…spanked…by their fathers are much more likely to be sexually promiscuous.’
      *
      Maybe, but many more studies show that people who cite such unreliable to nonexistent studies then to be nutballs.
      *
      I know, I know it’s mean to shoot fish in barrels, especially as one is always inclined to defer to Beadgirl’s fine sensibility, even when otherwise doubtful.

      • norcalrunner

        Oh please. Google search the negative outcomes of hitting your kids, along with sexual promiscuity issues. Creeps like you just want to pretend it’s okay to abuse your kids.

      • cmfe

        Actually, norcalrunner has a good point. I have also read else where that the best predictor of healthy relationships for women is a good relationship with their father. Also, a person who grew up in a household with violent abuse is more likely to abuse or be abused as an adult. Many of us grew up with spanking as the norm and turned out ok, but we now know that there are better and more effective methods of disciplining children.

  • Guest

    “Protestant Fundamentalists out in deep space advocate husbands spanking their wives…”

    Kinky?

    “… to correct their disobedience.”

    Oh. Just creepy then.

  • Wait, did Rick Warren really say that the Pope is Pope for all Christians? If so, where?

    This could be a huge step in ecumenism, if it’s true.

  • Alex

    Just curious — what do folk here think about corporal punishment for unruly children, at home or in school?

    • norcalrunner

      People who hit their kids are filthy animals. Period.

      • Hezekiah Garrett

        Way to dehumanize most of the species there, norcalrunner. Couldn’t just be a disagreement about parenting, no, they’re filthy animals.

        • norcalrunner

          Most people do not hit their kids. Only ignorant, dirty, trashy, classless, abusive thugs do.

          Good parents do not hit their kids. End of.

          • Alex

            The fanatical progressivism is strong in this one.

            • norcalrunner

              BS. If you hit kids, you’re sick.

              • Alex

                [wistfully] I’m old enough to remember when schools didn’t need metal detectors and a police presence to keep children from maiming and killing other children or adults. Of course that was before the Aeon of the Crowned and Conquering Child.

                • norcalrunner

                  That has what to do with people who hit children? I’m so sick and tired of the loud & proud child abusers among us telling us how _their_ kids are perfect because they routinely and happily smack them around, while _our_ kids are all somehow bad. My kids are adults and the proof is in the pudding — they’re great, accomplished, successful kids. The raddie-traddie parents who were so condescending and rude to the rest of us all have kids who are drunken jerks, skanky girls, have kids out of wedlock, have kids who’ve been arrested, etc.

                  So, no, hitting kids accomplishes nothing and causes nothing but harm. I bet every single person in jail was hit as a kid. I bet every girl working a pole or selling herself for sex was hit as a kid.

                  That’s what parents who hit kids create — more abuse, more dysfunction, more evil in the world. That’s Who. You. Are.

                  • Alex

                    I understand you have strong feelings on the subject. No need to chimp out.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Aaaaaannnnd you’re a racist, too. No surprises there. You’re disgusting, abusive and a racist. Good. Now I know.

                    • Garbanzo Bean

                      norcalrunner, were you abused physically or otherwise as a child? I realize it is a very personal question… whether you answer or not, I would suggest seeking counseling.

                    • norcalrunner

                      No — but I work with the children who’ve been abused by their oh-so-Christian and oh-so-Catholic parents, who’ve hit them and mentally and emotionally abused them and then tossed them on the streets when they became an embarrassment to them. I know what these Gold Medalists in the Catholic Olympics are — they’re narcissistic, abusive, idolatrous, selfish thugs, and it’s folks like me who have to clean up their mess time after time.

                      There is nothing that makes me sicker than the BS word games and BS insistance that we all be “nice” and “civil” when it comes to parents who willfully CHOOSE to hit children — and then who go on to say it makes them better Christians.

                      No. Adults who hit kids do not get “nice” and “civil”. There is nothing nice and civil about hitting children. It’s ignorant, uneducated, trashy, abusive behavior, full stop, end of story, period. There’s no grey area, it’s not a valid parenting choice, and we should not agree to disagree — honorable, decent human beings should never, ever tolerate hitting children. It’s wrong. Always, always, always. wrong and the people who do it are always, always, always bad people and bad parents.

                    • Garbanzo Bean

                      Thank you for your reply, it seemed to me you were upset enough about the issue that you had to be close to instances of abuse.
                      Do you have experience raising children yourself? Are you aware that children can attack their own parents quite aggressively?

                    • norcalrunner

                      I’ve raised five kids to adulthood, and some of them are now parents as well. No hitting, and none of my kids were sociopaths. If a parent has a child who is behaving abusively, they can get help for that child. Hitting such a child back is so clearly the absolute wrong response, it’s pretty shocking one would have to point that out, but there are no end of crappy parents in this world, so it’s not surprising.

                    • Garbanzo Bean

                      Might I share that your attitude in the comments above seems a little “holier-than-thou”? Did your kids never hit each other?

                    • norcalrunner

                      No. Why would they hit each other? We didn’t model hitting as a reasonable response to anything. The kids who are most likely to be aggressive towards others are those who are hit by their parents. If you don’t want your kids to hit other people, don’t hit them. Duh. This is not hard stuff.

                      You can think what you want about my comments, but the reality is people who hit their kids deserve that kind of rhetoric. I don’t treat uncivilized thugs with “nice” and “civil”. They should know better, but they choose to behave that way. Their behavior deserves nothing but scorn.

                    • Garbanzo Bean

                      “Normal” children may hit, pinch, bite, slap, kick, steal. They may vandalize the property of their parents or their siblings. Without ever having had these behaviors “modeled”. Your name-calling is just another form of abuse. Do your kids also call other people names?

                    • norcalrunner

                      Um, no, those are not “normal” children. Really. Vandalizing property is not normal, nor is stealing. If that’s going on, there’s probably a serious issue the parents may not be aware of, and they should figure out what it is. As for hitting others, well, maybe a little pushy-shovey-grabby stuff when they’re little is normal, but it’s up to the parents to put a stop to that without hitting them (which is so obviously hypocritical and counterproductive, again, that I don’t know why we STILL have to point that out to people).

                      My kids don’t call other people names, nor do I call decent people names. Child abusers? Yep. And my kids don’t tolerate abusive behavior, either, or pretend there’s room for “reasonable” disagreement when it comes to hitting kids.

                      It’s never, ever necessary to hit kids. Ever. To continue to do so when there are other, better options makes a person a brute. There’s just no getting around that fact.

                    • Garbanzo Bean

                      It is the apparent contempt for certain other human beings, expressed in name-calling, and in statements like “nothing bad enough can happen to them” that I am calling attention to. It seems incongruous.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Child abusers should be met with contempt. Heck, they should be met with far worse. Are you serious? Even Christ pretty much said if you hurt a kid, he’s done with you.

                    • Garbanzo Bean

                      The Lord also said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” He also said “whoever says ‘fool’ is liable to hellfire”.
                      Your hatred is yours, not the Lord’s. Of course child abusers should be stopped. But your hatred, and your stated desire that “nothing bad enough can happen to abusers” is your own issue.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Well, it’s theirs, too….just sayin’. They better not cross my path.

                  • D.T. McCameron

                    “My kids are…they’re great, accomplished, successful kids.”

                    Mmhmm.

                    “The raddie-traddie parents who were so condescending and rude to the rest of us all have kids who are drunken jerks, skanky girls, have kids out of wedlock, have kids who’ve been arrested, etc.

                    It must be delightful to be so vindicated? You might try working in an, “I told you so.” That’d show ’em.

                    I bet every single person in jail was hit as a kid. I bet every girl working a pole or selling herself for sex was hit as a kid.”

                    A legitimately interesting hypothesis, though not one I’d put money behind, especially since I don’t believe it would fly in the face of the fact that the majority of children throughout the majority of history have not grown up to become convicts/strippers. And, um…corporal punishment’s been a pretty standard disciplinary tool for ages.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Not lately it hasn’t. It really is only the bullies, the abusers and the ignorant who hit their kids anymore.

                      There is ZERO reason to hit a child, ever. That people still defend it, and defend it in the name of God, no less, is repulsive.

                      It’s 2014. It’s time to stop acting as if hitting your kids is an acceptable form of parenting, just like it’s time to stop acting as if being a certain age grants you a license to be a racist.

                      Hitting kids is wrong, bad, evil, disgusting, trashy and low. That’s ALL there is to say about it. We should outlaw it like they have elsewhere. Any parent who hits their kid belongs behind bars.

                    • antigon

                      Norcal you’re too delightful for words. Really, I had no idea that ‘acting as if being a certain age grants you a license to be a racist’ was once as common as knocking the little brats around. I mean how did it work exactly? Something like this?
                      *
                      Little Norcal: Most southern Italians are filthy animals, period.
                      Papa Nor: I’m sorry little N, but you’re not old enough to advance that view. It makes me almost want to smack you, that’s how bad it is.

                    • antigon

                      ‘Any parent who hits their kid belongs behind bars.’
                      *
                      Where they can be properly raped like such brutes deserve!

                    • norcalrunner

                      No, where they can be kept from harming innocent children. If the people they end up in jail with are as brutish and abusive as they are, well, maybe they should’ve made better parenting choices. Cry me a river — I don’t care what happens to child abusers. There’s nothing bad enough that CAN happen to them, IMO.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Oh, you poor sad failed little middle class nobody. Continue to abuse your kids and promote racism. What a prize you are. Ugh.

                  • antigon

                    ‘raddie-traddie parents who were so condescending and rude to the rest of us’
                    *
                    ahh, a subtext sneaks into the bellowing.
                    *
                    ‘My kids are…great, accomplished, successful kids.’
                    *
                    Doubtless your analysis is perfectly objective, M. Ncr, but are you sure they don’t suffer a certain high level of pompous as-hol-ry, of the sort known publically to be displayed by …some of their relatives?

                    • norcalrunner

                      Stop projecting, you failure of a man ( and I use that word very loosely in your case).

              • antigon

                Unless they p-ss you off for some reason. Then it’s okay.

                • norcalrunner

                  It is never okay. But thank you for admitting you beat your kids when they piss you off.

          • Andy

            Unfortunately many good parents “spank’ their children – not all that uncommon. If you mean beating kids then they are criminals.

            • norcalrunner

              Spanking = hitting. In the case of parents (if they hit their kids, they are bad parents), spanking = a large, powerful adult hitting a small, powerless child.

              It’s repulsive and disgusting and evil.

              There are no good parents who hit their kids. None.

              • antigon

                ‘It’s repulsive and disgusting and evil.’
                *
                As repulsive, disgusting and evil as pompous as-hol-ry squared?

                • norcalrunner

                  As repulsive as you, with your soft, pudgy, slope-shouldered body and your oily hair and, ah, delicate hands…

                  • antigon

                    Close, Nor ol’ boy, but no cigar. Lost me hair years ago alas.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Of course you’re lazy and out of shape. Not surprised at all.

          • antigon

            Plus they fellate cockroaches on alternate Thursdays!

            • norcalrunner

              That’s your wife, and that’s the UPS man. Guess the brown uniform got you all confused. Although I doubt the UPS man wants anything to do with that bloated bag of lard.

              • antigon

                Yes, & on that matter of ignorant, dirty, trashy, classless, thugs…

                • ivan_the_mad

                  Dear M. antigon:
                  *
                  Notwithstanding M. norcalrunner’s uncharitable hysterics throughout this thread, your conduct has been no less disgraceful, & may be considerably worse, viz. you have been goading M. norcalrunner into further nastiness.

                  • antigon

                    Dear Ivan:
                    *
                    Fair enough – & alas there’s more to come – tho there was the hope a little playfulness was due.

                • norcalrunner

                  Sorry, you get what you deserve. You don’t deserve to be treated like a decent person because you’re not a decent person.

      • antigon

        Especially if they southern Italians! Or southern anything!

        • norcalrunner

          Why are you so bigoted and prejudiced against southern Italians? So you’re a child abuser and a bigot. Of course you are.

          • antigon

            Because I’m married to one, Nor. You would be too if you were so lucky (on the other hand you’d have a richer life).

            • norcalrunner

              You hate your wife? Well, you’re the one advocating domestic abuse, so that’s not much of a shock, but, really, you go around telling people you hate your wife and her entire family? What’s wrong with her that she stays with a creepy, repulsive, abusive bigot like you?

              • antigon

                Nah, love the beauty, always have. Crazy how they do that.

                • norcalrunner

                  What beauty? You already said she was fat.

                  • ivan_the_mad

                    Stop it now. You should both be ashamed, and hopefully contrite.

                    • norcalrunner

                      Not in the least. He wanted this, he’s got it. Just giving the rancid little weasel what he wants. I’m generous that way.

                    • antigon

                      Done, save alas for what’s already posted. And I suppose it was a bit mean, even if playful. And Nor, don’t know if you’re a Christian, suspect maybe not, but if so, or anyway, please forgive me for goading.
                      *
                      And just for the record, the bride’s still gorgeous, & tho not fat, I sometimes wish she were. Be more to love.

                    • ivan_the_mad

                      Good on you.

                    • antigon

                      FWIW, Ivan you mad dog, I’m now feeling actually contrite. Looking over the comments, I was being rather a bully. In feeble defense, most of them were up before Nor responded, & if those clearly indicated I should have laid off, the earlier ones ought to have been a sufficient alert. So grazie for the merited admonition.

                    • antigon

                      Still, if not necessarily, I think it very likely your use of ‘hopefully’ above was grammatically unkosher. Regardless, my contrition is now definitely hopeful thanks to the Sacrament of Confession.

    • Opposed — there are plenty of ways to adequately raise and discipline children without resorting to hitting. Not to mention, it greatly undercuts one’s authority when one then tries to teach children not to hit each other. But then maybe I’m an outlier in teaching my kids not to hit.

      • Every last bit of corporeal punishment my parents meted out threatened to destroy our family. By the grace of God it survived intact, but my discipline is not because of but in spite of the violence my parents did to me.

  • kirthigdon

    The Protestant version strikes me as consensual sexual foreplay, the disclaimers of that notwithstanding. Even the picture seems to illustrate that. As for the Catholic version, I just don’t have the time to plow through 16 pages of blog commentary. If it is traditionalists writing, I sort of assume they are humorless and both anti-sexual and obsessed with sex. I’m sure not all are that way – just the ones I’ve run into.

    Kirt Higdon

  • ivan_the_mad

    CE has it right concerning this sort of insanity: “The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one’s own insight; the illusions of religious zeal …”

  • Garbanzo Bean

    The trad side can get a lot stranger than the SSPX. Search up “Little Pebble” and “Thuc Bishops”. Regarding this particular phenomenon… some folks enjoy it.