“Muslims protecting Christians in Egypt during mass”

 

News like this is seldom reported from the Middle East, and I wish it were more common. But it does happen.

 

I know the place shown above quite well.  It’s St. Mark’s Cathedral, the seat of the Patriarch of Alexandria and the foremost house of worship for the Coptic Orthodox Church, located in the El-Abbasiyya sector of Cairo.

 

(My thanks to Nicol Sorenson-Legakis for bringing this item to my attention.)

 

Posted from Cedar City, Utah

 

Addendum (17 August 2013):

 

I stand corrected.  The church depicted in the photo above is apparently not St. Mark’s Cathedral in El-Abbassiyya (in which I attended masses at both Christmas and Easter, and near which was my favorite Arabic Christian bookstore), but St. George’s in Sohag (which, so far as I know, I’ve never visited).  The two buildings have some similarities (including barrel vaulting) and I’m guessing that at least portions of each were built at the same (modern) time.  But, on closer inspection, this cannot be the Cathedral.  Sadly, along with at least two other Coptic churches, St. George’s was torched by arsonists, apparently supporters of the recently deposed Egyptian president, Mohamed Morsi, on 14 August 2013 (i.e., this past Wednesday):

 

The Coptic Church of St. George, in Sohag, Egypt, after arsonists struck it
(click to enlarge)

 

Yet another postscript:

 

Some have insinuated that the photograph at the top of this entry might be a forgery, or dubious in some other way.  I’ve now located — it took only a few minutes of searching on the Web — a different photograph of Muslim men ringing the Coptic Church of St. George in Sohag, Egypt.  There are at least two sources for it, here and here.  Notice the men in the foreground who are prostrating themselves in the familiar and uniquely Muslim mode of prayer known as salat.  So, quite plainly, these are Muslims.  Of course, some commenting here will insist that they were just getting ready to destroy the church, or some such baseless tale.  There seems to be a real refusal, on the part of certain people, to grant that Muslims can be kind and decent.  Such demonization is, in my view, dangerous, horrifying, and flatly evil.

 

Muslims ringing the Coptic Church of St. George in Sohag, Egypt
(click on the image to enlarge it)

 

 

 

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  • Kathy Rogers-Hartley

    Did this take place in the last day or so?

    • DanielPeterson

      I’m not sure of the date, but I don’t think so.

    • P.S. Fam

      The picture is about a month old.

  • cwhicker12

    This is a picture of muslim men standing around a Christian building – I doubt very much they are there to protect it. It’s against their religion to stand in defense of another religion, especially in Egypt. I suspect the man who suggests such an interpretation is muslim himself; and that this is an example of muslim propaganda.

    • DanielPeterson

      Wow. And this comment has already received seven (7) positive votes?

      Yes, I’m publicly known as a Muslim. Heck, I even teach at a notoriously Muslim university.

      So, of course, when I respond that it’s pure hogwash to claim that defending another religion is against Islam, I’m lying in order to defend my faith.

      Allahu akbar!

      • Azimi

        I just searched and you are known as a mormon apologist. Why do tend to be hypocrite and propagating against other religion than yours?

        • DanielPeterson

          Can you please clarify what you’re talking about? I don’t attack ANY other religion.

          I think you missed the irony in my response to cwhicker12, above.

          • Michael Berry

            Apparently, most people missed the irony and read your retort at face value, thereby the high positives were as a result of people misled.

        • cwhicker12

          Well, the contributor of the photo offered nothing more than the photo as proof of its cause. There are other explanations that seem more likely, given the recent history. History tends to offer context – and I was simply giving the opinion that is most likely to result from that context. Do muslims in Egypt risk the ire of the ruling Brotherhood, by appearing openly to defend one of their prime targets? Or, is it that these men, if they are indeed there to defend, are secretely Christians themselves hoping to minimize the risk by not appearing as such?

          • DanielPeterson

            I’m sorry, but I have to ask: What, actually, do you know of the historical context? And, for that matter, of the cultural and religious context? You speak as if you’re quite knowledgeable on these matters, such that you’re qualified to speculate regarding the dark, secret background that the rest of us can’t see, the truth that less knowledgeable people (me, for example) have difficulty recognizing.

          • Sara Damewood

            It would be wonderful if you could find out who took this photo and when and where. It’s very popular on the web, and having that info would make it even more powerful.

          • DanielPeterson

            I’m not sure that I have the time or the know-how. I’ll give it a shot, perhaps, but would welcome any help.

          • mrbunnylamakins

            RASSD.Com and they are a Pro Morsi News web site and I been going through Hundreds of pictures and yet to find it and article attached to it.

            Which the keep accusing The U.S. of backing the Military, but fail to realize Obama supports the Muslim Brotherhood.

          • cwhicker12

            The historical context is the one clearly mentioned in my reply.

          • DanielPeterson

            Sorry. It seems that I can’t find the history. Where, exactly, is it in your reply?

          • cwhicker12

            I can’t navigate your system, here, to go back and even look. It’s a strange set up, and it’s frustrating. Did I not allude to the rather obvious fact that it’s always dangerous to offend the muslim brotherhood, or to stand up against them? That’s the historical context. I feel like you’re’ just being difficult, not wanting to understand what’s being said because you’re somehow offended.

          • DanielPeterson

            I’m not offended at all (and, while I’m at it, this isn’t my system).

            I simply think it essential to remember that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn’t represent all of today’s Muslims, and that the state of Islam today isn’t necessarily equivalent to Islam over the entire course of its history.

            Here’s a newspaper column that I published this morning:

            http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865585078/Here-are-2-examples-of-Muslim-respect-for-Christian-churches.html

        • Cat

          Because, as you said, he is mormon apologist.

          • DanielPeterson

            That’s right, Cat. I’m a vicious liar because I’m a Mormon apologist.

            No.

            Wait.

            Maybe I’m a Mormon apologist because I’m a vicious liar.

            It’s all so confusing!

            In any event, I didn’t attack any religion here, contrary to Azimi’s unfortunate misreading. And I don’t attack other religions here or anywhere else, for that matter. I defend mine AGAINST attack, but that’s rather a different matter.

            (Spoken like a truly vicious liar.)

    • Guest

      And of course you are incorrect. Muslims have stood in defense of Christians in Egypt. All you have to do is look.

      • DanielPeterson

        I hope you understand, “Guest,” that I agree with you.

      • cwhicker12

        One wonders how many of those “muslims” are secretly christians. Why would they want to make it known publicly, since their lives would be in danger?

        • DanielPeterson

          Why, cwhicker12, are you so determined to argue that actual Muslims can’t be good people?

    • Azimi

      >It’s against their religion to stand in defense of another religion

      No its not, why do you people always make such generalizations about our faith. Even the Prophet wrote letter to christians saying muslims should protect Christians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad

      • DanielPeterson

        Who is “you people,” Azimi? I was DEFENDING your religion against cwhicker12.

        • ChrisMcC1

          He wasn’t responding to you, Daniel. He was responding to cwhicker12′s ridiculous comment, just as you were. Check the quoted phrase and the threading indentation.

          • DanielPeterson

            I was puzzled because, above, Azimi correctly identifies me as a Mormon apologist, but then wants to know why I’m being hypocritical and attacking his religion — which I most certainly wasn’t doing. (I’m also, professionally, an Islamicist.)

    • Emily Scott

      Muslims have so many different divisions that it would be difficult for you to generalize correctly. I tend to believe there are some out there that see more truth than others. These would be those

    • Tyler Jones

      Seems you know very little of what Muslims believe. Go crawl back to your cave,

      • TheOldPoet

        Yes, there is a tradition of some Muslims protecting Christians and this is a noble thing but one has to admit, there is far more persecution of Christians in the Muslim world than protection driven by Imams who interpret holy works for hateful purposes.

    • Omar Abdallah Farrukh

      try a history book written by an academic, not a politician with an agenda. “people of the book” came out of muslim culture to respect christianity and judaism.
      a.) Salah’adeen(Saladin) was respected in europe for his protection of churches and temples as well as protection for pilgrims for freedom of worship when the muslims had jerusalem.
      b.)during Mohammed’s time, the Abyssinian Christian king offered protection to the muslims after the muslims arrived in his kingdom, because of the verses in the Qur’an and it’s respect towards Jesus, and the beautiful description of his birth.

    • Darren

      cwhicker12;

      Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. It is impossible for me or anyone else to come unto the Father without Him. I love Jesus Christ too much to even consider letting Him go from my life as my rock and my salvation and may I be damned to Hell if I ever do.

      That said, it is vitally important that our current struggles with those within the Muslim population is against those who use violence and not the religion itself. I’m 100% in favor of killing jihadists / Islamists who have taken up arms against my fellow countrymen and have killed them. I am also 100% opposed to waging war upon Islam itself as a religion. God will guide us and protect us (if we seek His guidance and actively strive to serve Him) in winning a war against jihadists / Islamists but God will NOT be with us if we target Islam as a religion. Such is contrary to the will of the Father.

      • cwhicker12

        You’re absolutely right, Darren. I just want to encourage the peaceable muslims in America to take a stand PUBLICLY against their extremist brethren. Those extremists have formed publicly known organizations such as C.A.I.R. who are working IN FAVOR of certain extremist agendas within our country. I have yet to see an organized effort on the part of “peaceable” muslims to speak out against the radical element of their faith. I have seen rare individuals do so, but no organization is formed such as the radicals are doing. The peaceables are either too scared, or else they secretly believe in the radical agenda. Only THEY can make it clear where they stand. They must be willing to risk the ire of their radical brethren in order to stand up for peace, rather than letting innocent Christian victims take all the risk.

        • on pace

          There are over a BILLIONMuslims on the planet and tens of thousands of them in America. Why should the peaceful majorityhhave to speak on behalf of the nut case few? Why can’t intelligent people recognize that these people represent a marginal fraction of Muslims at best. I don’t see people of other faiths being called upon to denounce fundamentalist nut jobs.

          • Darren

            To be frank, if Muslims do not come out to clearly denounce and condemn Jihad as it is being used to promote world-wide terrorism you run the risk of blurring Islam with terrorism. When abortion clinics are bombed by Christians in the name of Christianity, funerals of fallen American soldiers are protested by a Christian group claiming the soldier’s death is God’s justice for homosexuality, or arms are taken up in the name of forming a Christian society, there is no shortage of Christians coming out and protesting against these actions and separating the tenets of Christianity from these extreme acts of hate and terror. These acts of denunciation actually help keep the doctrines of Christianity pure and free from extremism.

            I clearly and unequivocally denounce waging war on Islam and that is based solidly on my Christian faith.

          • cwhicker12

            The truth is, when apostasy within any organization shows its face, the organization itself is responsible to judge its own and thereby keep their body pure. A company fires members who would destroy its reputation. As a family man, I will kick out any family member whose behavior persistently presents an influence of corruption upon my innocent ones. The ancient nation of Israel understood that, under their level of covenant, if they didn’t rise up in judgment against covenant breakers the Lord would end up punishing the whole nation and not just the culprit. That’s a true and eternal principle. The responsibility of clear judgment and open excommunication of corrupt members rests with the body itself, in order to keep the body pure and merit divine protection. If the German people had appropriately discerned and judged Hitler, rising up against him, their country would not have had to face the devastation that came upon it. History is replete with demonstration of this principle.

          • DanielPeterson

            There is no Muslim organization, no Islamic “church,” that has the ability to “excommunicate” anybody. The concept makes no sense within an Islamic context. It would be rather like demanding that some football fan be “excommunicated” from being a football fan.

          • cwhicker12

            That doesn’t make sense in the context of what I’ve read of Islam’s history. When Mohammed died, there was a split as to who would take his place. Factions arose, each with their own head honcho, so to speak. Having a head Imam would seem to signify that there is an order of authority; and if this is the case then there is organization. No?

        • Darren

          I do not like CAIR and am frankly very suspicious of their motives. I do lie Dr. Zuhdi Jasser and his organization “American Islamic forum for Democracy”. I think you’ll find that he and his organization do precisely what you’re seeking for Muslims to do.

          • cwhicker12

            Ok. Well, maybe I need to be better informed. Thanks.

    • kvlTree .

      it’s you who is the Perfect example of Propaganda, to say that Islam doesn’t allow protecting other Religions.

    • Marriyam Hussain

      Our religion tells us to save humanity, IT IS OUR RELIGION to stand in defense of other Religions. because our religion tells us to be kind and decent to each and every human kind not just muslims and each place of worship is considered just as precious, may it be a temple, church or mosque. God resides in each !

  • DanielPeterson

    Not everybody in Egypt — not even every Muslim — belongs to or agrees with the Brotherhood.

    • Youssef

      The Muslim Brotherhood which i belong to never called to attack Christian. It is the complete contrary. If some extremist do so they do not do it on behalf of Muslim Brotherhood.

      • DanielPeterson

        Glad to hear it. Thanks for commenting.

  • Steven Todd Kaster

    I believe that the picture in the article was taken a couple of weeks ago in front of St. George’s Coptic Church in Sohag Egypt. Sadly, St. George’s Church was attacked and burned by the Muslim Brotherhood on 14 August 2013.

    • DanielPeterson

      Ah. You may be right. I saw the modern barrel vaulting and immediately thought it was St. Mark’s. I can’t recall ever having been at St. George’s — and haven’t actually been very close to St. Mark’s for several years now.

    • Guest

      why is it so hard to believe that Muslims want peace and trying to prevent violence against anyone….this is because main stream media especially in the western world reports only the negative actions of muslims….if this picture was christians protecting a masjid i am sure no one would be double guessing…and yes i am an american muslim that converted to islam almost 18 years ago…true muslims will never promote violence against anyone

  • cwhicker12

    Well, I’ll apologize, then. I thought you’d just posted the picture, and were sharing the claim that came with it. I have no reason to distrust your word, if you know that to be the case. But the “peaceable” muslims even in this country have done very little to speak up against their radical element, and it makes me suspicious. I have read words from the Koran supporting the views of the radical element, and so it makes me think they’d all secretly like to eliminate Christianity, and are just playing it cautious.

    • DanielPeterson

      There are many very good Muslims. I count a number of them among my friends.

      Please don’t confuse Islamic extremism with Islam as such.

  • fabucat

    A lot of Egyptian Muslims can’t stand the Brotherhood. Much like mainline Christians don’t much are for the more extreme versions of fundamentalist Christianity.

    • DanielPeterson

      Precisely.

  • DanielPeterson

    Very nice, Peter.

  • Micaela

    Hi Dan,

    Thank you for sharing this photo. It’s very moving. Do you know where it originated from? I’d like to link to it and give a photo credit, but I can’t read the watermark. Thanks!

    • DanielPeterson

      Sorry. I don’t. Someone else brought it to my attention, and I don’t know the provenance.

  • Don Adrian

    What if those Muslims are there to prevent Catholics from entering St. Mark’s Cathedral? Think from different perspectives.

    • DanielPeterson

      They’re not, Don Adrian. There’s no “what if” about it.

  • JM dL
  • DanielPeterson

    Thank you for sharing this, Deb. Thurston OCDS.

  • JohnLogan007

    THAT is not the St. Mark Cathedral in Alexandria….

    This is…

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saint_Mark_Church,_Heliopolis.jpg

    Where is the christian symbol called Crosses???

    • Dennis Victor

      look in the upper left of this picture. That IS a cross.

  • DeaconsBench

    This may be related to a story from a couple years ago, which gives evidence Muslims were willing to act as human shields to protect Christian churches.

    http://www.juancole.com/2011/01/egyptian-muslims-throng-in-thousands-to-protect-christians.html

  • Jonathan Danilowitz

    Food for thought on the happenings in Egypt now.
    http://reallyisrael.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/the-middle-east-is-burning/

  • Guest

    Before we were Christians, Muslims, Jews or Jedi we were all just Human Beings. We are all brothers and sisters and should protect each other from prejudice, acts of terror, persecution and religious intolerance.

    • DanielPeterson

      THANK YOU!

      • Jason Alan Glazier

        prick

  • Brendan Doran

    It’s
    a faction. More powerful through Saudi money and utter ruthlessness
    than POPULAR. You’re POPULAR when you’ll murder and the nice guy won’t.
    then there’s saudi money.

  • mheiser

    Hi Dan – I know you’re not a Muslim! I was wondering why the picture was watermarked. It makes me wonder if it is a “real time” image. Do you know? Was it archived somewhere, hence the watermark? As an aside – are you going to SBL this year?

    • DanielPeterson

      Sorry, Michael (and hello, by the way!), but I can’t answer that. I got the photo from somebody else, who got it from somebody else, who presumably got it from somebody else. I think some here have been hinting that it’s fraudulent, but I have no reason to believe that. I know lots of Muslims, and I have no difficulty imagining many of my friends engaging in precisely such a statement — just as I would do, were a mosque threatened in my own community.

      • mheiser

        I posted something on Twitter just now about it possibly being a month old, which if true, would not invalidate it in my mind. It appears genuine to me. I ask because I see a lot of fakery in pictures in other areas that I deal with (the paranormal stuff) that it’s always on the radar. I don’t have trouble believing Muslims who are opposed to the brotherhood would protect Christians and Christian sites. It’s really a moving thing to think about, when one considers that any Muslim who would oppose the MB or any other radicalized group would be in serious danger. If only our leadership wasn’t so cozy with the MB. It’s really a shame.

        • DanielPeterson

          Indeed. (Responding, to avoid future ambiguity, to mheiser.)

  • aloysiusmiller

    Actually since non-Christian Egyptians have defended Christian churches it is true that’s Muslims have defended Christians but such defenders are not Islamist ideologues. I would be very interested in the context of these photos.

    I support Egyptians against the Muslim Botherhood and wish General Sisi great success in his endeavor to smash the MB.

  • DanielPeterson

    I will. Probably on the main blog itself. It may take me a little while to find the time to do it justice.

  • DanielPeterson

    I hope you’re talking about cwhicker12, and not me, ACR!

  • Steven Todd Kaster

    Pope Tawadros II and the Coptic Orthodox Church have issued a statement in support of the government, which can be read – in French and English – at the link below:

    http://blogcopte.fr/2013/08/17/news-communique-du-pape-tawadros-ii-apres-le-troisieme-jour-consecutif-des-attaques-contre-les-eglises/

  • Hamilton Ayuk

    I think that those people are standing there to prevent Christians from coming into the church .

    • DanielPeterson

      Hamilton Ayuk: On the basis of what do you think this?

      • Hamilton Ayuk

        Considering that the Koran inherently had evil intentions against the non believers of Islam that it calls them kafirs, albeit it does not use the word on Christians because it calls them the people of the book. However, by abjuring the faithful to violence (2:191-193) makes me believe they can never be peaceful.

        • DanielPeterson

          In my judgment — and perhaps you should know that, although I’m not a Muslim, I have a Ph.D. in Arab/Islamic intellectual history, have published a biography of Muhammad, teach the Qur’an twice a year (in English during the fall term, and in Arabic during the winter term), etc. — I think you completely miss the historical context of those and other analogous verses, and, thus, misunderstand their significance. And I also think you fail to understand the precise Qur’anic meaning of “kafir” — and that your misunderstanding on this point leads you into grave error. I don’t intend to get into the details of this here, but mistakes such as yours make it clear that writing up my argument for publication is probably pretty important, even urgent.

          • Hamilton Ayuk

            It is expedient that you lay down the context because I don’t think your interpretation will be normative.

          • DanielPeterson

            I don’t know or care much, Hamilton Ayuk, about being “normative.” I simply want to be correct.

          • Hamilton Ayuk

            Daniel Peterson, then lay down the context so we may determine if you are correct or incorrect.

          • DanielPeterson

            As I said above, Hamilton Ayuk, I intend to do that — but in an article somewhere, not in a blog post and certainly not in the comments section of a blog. My argument will, necessarily, involve quotations from Arabic chronicles, the Qur‘an itself, and secondary literature. I’m an academic; if I’m going to put that much work into writing something, it’s going to be a real publication.

          • Hamilton Ayuk

            Ok great! I look forward to reading. I have a blog too you can check at princehamilton.blogspot.com

  • April Jo Perez

    The watermark says RASSD.COM which is evidently a news page, but since it is in Arabic, I wasn’t able to quickly find the photo above. You may have more luck, Dan, if you are so inclined. :)

  • ChuckNoland

    If this is accurate it is a positive sign in a sea of hate.

    • DanielPeterson

      Indeed. That’s why I thought it important to share.

      • ChuckNoland

        Thank you for sharing. I often wonder that if there is an Islamic Martin Luther if he would be able to make it to door without being cut down.

  • Steven Todd Kaster

    Below is a video that shows the early stages of the attack by the Muslim Brotherhood upon the Church last Wednesday (14 August 2013):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLdvMoi0omQ

  • LeeAnne Shiver

    why is it so hard to believe that Muslims want peace and trying to
    prevent violence against anyone….this is because main stream media
    especially in the western world reports only the negative actions of muslims….if this picture was christians protecting a masjid i am sure no one would be double guessing…and yes i am an american muslim that converted to islam almost 18 years ago…true muslims will never promote violence agains anyone

    • DanielPeterson

      Thank you for your voice here!

    • cwhicker12

      Christians protecting the rights of all religions is their modus operandum. Such is not the history when it comes to Islam.

      • DanielPeterson

        “Christians protecting the rights of all religions is their modus operandum.”

        Absolute historical bilge, cwhicker12.

        “Such is not the history when it comes to Islam.”

        Again, you don’t know your history.

  • DanielPeterson

    I’ve posted another entry very relevant to this one:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2013/08/two-notes-regarding-islams-purported-hatred-of-christians.html

    Just for readers’ information.

  • Björn Kunter

    I would be interested to find out more about the picture. Especially when it was taken. There were several incidents of Egyptian protecting coptic churches during the revolution in 2011. It must be understood that Mubaraks security services was well known to incite sectarian unrest, whenever there was public protest. They then used their contacts to Salafist radicals and arranged attacks against Copts. Therefore during the January revolution in 2011, muslim people organized the protection of copts prayer (and vice versa) at Tahrir and elsewhere.

    It would be interested whether the picture is from that time, or more recently. Especially whether it was before the arsoning (which probably took place on August 14th. ( https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=578838322181044&set=a.519130131485197.1073741827.165320543532826&type=1 ) or afterwards.

    The high presence of praying policemen on the last picture suggest the latter, but it is of course also possible that the pictures were taken at different times.

    • DanielPeterson

      Thank you for your comment. I would welcome the help of anybody who is interested in tracking down the date and provenance of the photo. I’ve said as much as I know about it.

      • Björn Kunter

        This is what I found out:

        The images are from two different incidents:

        The first picture is most likely from August 8th and shows how worshippers form a human chain around the St George. The majority of reports links it to an approaching march of Morsi supporters in Sohag. (for example: http://tameznews.blogspot.de/2013/08/SOH.html ) The most detailed report links it to a severe car accident which took place in front of the church. http://www.el-balad.com/578451

        The third picture showing a human chain and praying muslims is most likely from August 16th( or 14th/15th). It shows that after the arsoning (attempt) a human chain of christians and muslims was formed to protect the church for atleast two days in a row. ( http://www.tempi.it/fotogallery/egitto-cristianimusulmani-in-preghiera-difendono-chiesa-fratelli-musulmanis )

        There are no accords whether muslim bystanders joined the first human chain. This may have happened or not… But it does shows that egyptian (muslims and others) rallied in support and solidarity after the arsoning

  • rockanne

    This may be true but the only thing I want to point out is the difference between the first picture and the last picture. In the first picture the men are standing with their back to the church and the tower is still freshly cream color. In the bottom picture, the ring of men have their back to the men bent in prayer and you see the circle/square curves around the men in prayer and not the church. It is something happening outside in front of the church but not around the church. AND most notably of all the bell tower is charred black post-burning. Whatever the case may be the two pictures together only confuse the matter.

  • Isabel Benitez

    ,islam and kind and decent don’t mix.ever. If you think they do you haven’t done your research. How many women need to be covered in acid for wanting an education? How many western women need to be jailed for being raped? Do I really need to go on? in islam women are slaves. they can’t drive, they can’t learn, they cannot even leave the house without a male relative. And if they even talk to a non male relative, odds are they are going to be executed for dishonoring their family. How is any of those facts kind or decent?

  • kiwi57

    Hans, take another look at what is being compared. It is not that extreme fundamentalist Christianity in the manner of Kent Hovind is “much like” extreme fundamentalist Islam in the form of the “Muslim Brotherhood,” but that the “mainstream” believers in both faith traditions look similarly askance at their home-grown extremists.

    • Hans-Georg Lundahl

      Since objects of such dislike is so different, I first of all wonder at such a dislike against Kent Hovind, not for being Protestant (there are worse) but for being YEC as any Catholic or Orthodox was till about a C ago.
      I am not disputing the fact, I am only flabberghasted by it.
      But secondly, can we be sure either dislike is totally objective and unconnected to a fear of critique from outsiders whose positions make them hard to ignore?

    • Hans-Georg Lundahl

      Sure.

      My problem is precisly with “mainstream” believers finding KH as much a “home-grown extremist” as some Muslims find these terrorists.

      He is after all serving prison, not for arson or murder, but for tax fraud and part of the charges involve pretty biassed debunking of the charity status of his Creation Museum as well as other activities on grounds – also pretty biassed – that he was “an intellectual fraud”, which is of course not punishable by prison in itself and some such charges – or at least their back up on internet lately – are made by people who could well qualify for the label “an intellectual fraud” themselves.

      In 1949 the supposedly first C14-dating ever was not made until December. Hovind has quoted a failed one from September that year “which must be false, since the first C14-dating was made only months later” … duh …

  • DanielPeterson

    Who says that the VISIBLE church disappeared? That was precisely what DIDN’T disappear.

    Incidentally, I prefer to go back to the original rather than reading the text in translation. (And why privilege the LATIN translation.) I agree that Jesus was with his disciples, and that he was with his church until the end of the “aion” — the end of the age. I’m not sure why you imagine that that promise would rule out an apostasy.

    • Hans-Georg Lundahl

      It does not rule out all and every kind of apostasy.
      It rules out that the visible Church apostasises without a visible remnant visibly continuing the visible Church as before the apostasy.

      Criterium of visibility is due to a few considerations:
      * directly affirmed in “a city built on a mountain cannot be hidden”, and mountain is synonym of rock, polis of ekklesia
      * implied by authority of Church:
      - pillar and foundation of truth
      - given authority to loose and bind concerning absolution and excommunication (given to same eleven men who heard the promise in Matth 28:18-20)
      * implied by the fact the true Church cannot be a secret Church, since secrecy is a work of the devil.

      • DanielPeterson

        Sorry. I don’t really see anything like a persuasive argument here, Hans-Georg Lundahl. You seem, from my perspective, to be concatenating a group of unrelated scriptural passages and concepts, but in a rather arbitrary way.

  • Jonwards

    THE BACKGROUND OBAMA CAN’T COVER UP

    (Each human is part of this “River.” Are you an “oxbow lake”?)

    Islam, part of the Living River of History, affected even the 2012 US election!
    The “headwaters” of this River was Adam, according to Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc.

    In the OT (Deut. 28), “tributaries” wanting to join the River are
    blessed while “distributaries” wanting to flow away from it are cursed.
    Those wishing to totally separate from the fresh Living River become
    polluted, dying “oxbow lakes.”
    In the OT we see Israelites
    repeatedly flowing away from God, then repenting and returning to Him;
    we also see heathen “oxbow lakes” creating their own little “gods” and
    being allowed by God to plunder and kill the erring Israelites.
    Then, at the right time, the Living River took on new life with the arrival of the Promised One who offers “living water.”

    In the 7th century Islam, drawing from both OT and NT, chose to be a
    distributary away from this River. Many scholars have viewed it as the
    final Antichrist: note “scourge” (Isa. 28), “Assyrian” (Mic. 5),
    “Euphrates” (Rev. 9) etc. (Google “Prof. F. N. Lee’s ISLAM IN THE BIBLE
    [PDF].” Dr. Lee, BTW, has nine (!) earned doctorates in various fields.)

    God will allow this “scourge” to temporarily persecute and kill
    apostate Jews (JINOs) and Christians (CINOs). Jews, especially in
    “entertainment,” seem more expert in apostasy than Christians since Jews
    have been at it 2000 years longer than Christians have (Google
    “jewishfaces.com/porn.html”) – but Christians apparently want to catch
    up to the Jews!
    It’s apparent that others will join Islam in its
    end-time inquisition; its great oil wealth can captivate many leaders
    and already we’re seeing apostate American leaders being bribed into
    turning against true American patriots.
    Those who ignore (or try
    to dilute or destroy) the God-ordained Living River of History will be
    swept down it to an ocean made by their own never-ending tears of agony
    and despair.
    The good news is that American JINOs & CINOs
    can overcome the “scourge” discussed above. The secret is found by
    checking out “II Chronicles 7:14″ & “John 3:16″ on the web.

    There’s still time – and freedom – to Google or MSN “Obama Promotes
    Public Sex,” “Obama a Black-Slavery Avenger?,” “Dangerous Radicals of
    the Religious Right,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Mikey Weinstein,
    Jesus-Basher,” “Christ’s return is NOT imminent,” “Pretrib Rapture
    Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” and
    (for dessert) “Pretrib Rapture Stealth.”
    In light of Matthew
    7:2, if we tolerate Christian leaders who lie to us and steal from us,
    we shouldn’t be surprised if God allows us to have political leaders who
    lie to us and steal from us!

    A Kansas Patriot (who won FIRST PLACE over 2200 entrants in a nationwide Americanism essay contest)

    [Thanks Daniel. I spotted the foregoing on the fascinating web.]

    • DanielPeterson

      Very scary stuff. (Though I suspect that what I find scary is not what the author finds scary.)

  • DanielPeterson

    Some Muslims no doubt hate Christians, Jason Alan Glazier, but many Muslims absolutely don’t. Your post is false, and deeply unhelpful. Fanning the flames of interreligious hatred does no good for anybody.

    • Jason Alan Glazier

      How is my post false when yet I keep seeing muslims blowing up people left and right seems to me My POST IS NOT WRONG.. Hatred has nothing to do with this post just the truth which must have cut you deep since you responded within kind of a false hope judging other’s…

      • DanielPeterson

        When I see Christians behaving badly, I don’t conclude that all Christians behave badly. It would be unjust to do so.

        The fact that some, or even many, Muslims behave very badly doesn’t remotely begin to demonstrate that ALL Muslims behave badly (or hate Christians, as your comment seems to claim).

        I’ve known many Muslims, for many years, who have been kind, respectful of my Christian beliefs, and so forth, You defame them baselessly with your blanket statement, and such statements are, in their small way, harmful to community and world peace.

        I published a newspaper column just yesterday mentioning two (additional) powerful counterexamples that refute your statement:

        http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865585078/Here-are-2-examples-of-Muslim-respect-for-Christian-churches.html

        • Jason Alan Glazier

          I don’t like christians nor muslims I do believe in a higher power a God but I am in no way stating that all hate each other I am keeping an open mind unlike some close minded people here but the truth is that they both kill and religion is the major problem in the entire world worship my god or be killed worship my god or die yada yada yada get my point that’s the problem with religion to many fanatics

          • DanielPeterson

            Your dislike of both Christians and Muslims seems a very odd basis on which to further world peace and understanding, and your claim that “religion is the major problem in the entire world” is demonstrably false nonsense.

  • Jason Alan Glazier

    you are a Racists

  • R. Crawford

    A comment on your reply (at end of this note).
    The people of Egypt elected Mohamed Morsi in what is generally accepted as the first “fair” democratically held election. Mohamed Morsi received 51.7% of the vote. Mohamed Morsi was at the time the leader of the Freedom and Justice Party which was founded by the Muslim Brotherhood.

    One would have to assume that the vote represented the political and cultural mind of the general population of Eqypt. One of the harsh realities of the middle east is that justice and often disputes are resolved through violence.
    If Saudi Arabian practices are also typical of Egypt, the punishment for stealing is to remove the hand of the thief. A recent observed case in which two men were caught in the robbery of a store, was dealt with by the religious police bringing them into an open area, gathering everyone in the area (men, women and children of all ages) into the area to watch as the two men were beheaded. In both cases the punishment is administered by the religious police who act as both judge jury and executioner.
    It is interesting to find that in a land in which law and justice are often dispensed quickly. Those same “justice” views are not applied when dealing with arsonists who burn churches. If it were so those perpetrating the offense would be dealt with as quickly as those caught stealing.
    Your remarks were:
    “Sadly, along with at least two other Coptic churches, St. George’s was torched by arsonists, apparently supporters of the recently deposed Egyptian president, Mohamed Morsi, on 14 August 2013 (i.e., this past Wednesday):”

    • DanielPeterson

      Egypt hasn’t used the “hudud” punishments of shari‘ah law in modern times.


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