Frank Schaeffer: My Journey Out of the Religious Right (Lecture)

Please watch this

Now Watch the Q & A Here… 

About Frank Schaeffer

Frank Schaeffer is an American author, film director, screenwriter and public speaker. He is the son of the late theologian and author Francis Schaeffer. He became a Hollywood film director and author, writing several internationally acclaimed novels including And God Said, "Billy!" as well as the Calvin Becker Trilogy depicting life in a fundamentalist mission home-- Portofino, Zermatt, and Saving Grandma.

  • http://Patheos Mark Edward Hessinger

    Well, Frank, now you’ve really done it. You’ve told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, at least as best as you can make it out, about the Left as well as the Right. And, Pardner, I’ll bet you’re gonna have a real fight on your hands now, maybe even find yourself caught in a crossfire! I’ll do my best to back your play . . . and may God help the both of us! -Mark

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1vsmpGfB9Q

    • Frank Schaeffer

      Mark thanks so much for the kind note, if we could all get past the gate keepers there are more reasonable people out there than I think we credit our country for. Thanks for the good word, Best, Frank

      • http://Patheos Mark Edward Hessinger

        But Frank, I gotta tell you something as a friend.

        George W. Bush is not an “idiot,” no matter what you personally think of him. His actions as Commander in Chief of these United States of America will be debated for decades or much longer by scholars of our Constitution, as well as by scholars of International Law . . . as will the actions of the current Commander in Chief, Barak Hussein Obama. And there’s not going to be any Nuremberg trial for either one of them unless some other nation conquers the United States before either one of them dies. So howling at the moon like you did somewhat in the Q & A portion of this presentation and calling President Bush an “idiot,” “war criminal,” and “murderer” hardly makes you personally appear very “reasonable.”

        Get drunk, go off into a large and empty field late at night, and do that there, if you must, where no one else can see or hear you. But making unproven, and probably unprovable, accusations doesn’t make your case for an intellectual, rational conversation between people of good will on all sides of questions political, theological, etc. It may be emotionally satisfying for the moment, and it apparently entertained the college crowd you had there in front of you, but it also makes you, a very intelligent man, appear like a nincompoop to people who actually know how to read very recent history. Moreover, if you’re going into a gun fight, you don’t want to be shooting blanks, do you?

        And, by the way, I do agree with you that there are “more reasonable people out there than . . . we credit our country for.” That and our Constitution, especially our Constitution, are the basis of any “American exceptionalism” that any outside observer, such as Alexis de Tocqueville, could ever cite. And if we ever lose either one of these twin pillars, we’ll likely descend into either barbarism or totalitarianism.

        Finally, when is your new book coming out, you know the one you’ve promised to be more art than politics? -Mark

        • http://facebook Marzilla Bryson

          If you’re gonna go howl at the moon about GWB being a war criminal…which field..and can I come too?

          • http://Patheos Mark Edward Hessinger

            I’m not saying it mightn’t be a fun party! Just mind the drones. ;) -meh

        • jeczaja

          The war crime of aggression-invading another country without justification-is what the Nuremberg candidates were charged with (and convicted) Aggression=war crime. Look it up.

      • Mark Edward Hessinger

        Hey you rotten bastard! I just noticed that you deleted my response to your reply to my “kind note,” wherein I politely asked you to stop calling poor ol’ George W. Bush an “idiot” and a “war criminal.” I wrote that advice from my heart for your own good, you know, to help you sound more credible when you go around the country calling for more civility and charity and all. Well hell, that’s OK. I still love ya, Man!

        • Mark Edward Hessinger

          This stupid software program! When I tried to “delete” the comment above wherein I jokingly (sort of) called you a “rotten bastard,” Frank, the dumb program removed my name and photograph but kept the comment and labeled it from an unnamed “Guest!”

          Ha! Ha! I guess the “joke” is on me!

  • Mark J

    Frank,

    As a 60 year old believer raised in fundamentalism (seven Baptist preachers in my family) I found your portrait of such believers as “stupid” to be inaccurate and unfair. Most of the fundamentalists I know could defeat their liberal Christian counterparts in most any theological debate. Liberals bask in “nuance” (your word) and relativity but simply push the monster of absolute truth into the closet, covered your eyes and ears, and chanted, there is no monster, there is no monster. The theory of relativity itself, you know, is built upon a constant.

    I watched your whole speech and, to be frank, Frank, what I saw was a man reveling in his own nuanced view of himself … and nothing else (well, besides the book peddling). Sorry, I don’t wish to be offensive but that’s all I saw. Far better, it would be, for we believers to show that all roads lead to the cross of Chrst. This doesn’t mean we reject art or music or science or culture, just that we show, like Moses did to Pharoah, that beneath all human activity are flies, frogs, and feces (well, I added that one for its alliterative value. By the way, fundamentalists can use alliteration. It’s on the approved list.)

    Note: I am not a fundamentalist. I disapprove of many of their ways. I just don’t like them being caricaturized cruelly and unfairly. They’re not dumb, they’re not cruel, and they’re not unloving … at least no more than any other group. Remember, Saul was a fundamentalist before he was Paul.

    • Matthew_Bailey

      The absolute truth is that the Bible says that following Jesus will send you to hell.

      It also says many other things that directly contradict itself as represented by others.

  • Mike

    This is your best lecture yet. Ignore the haters. Like you said, they will change their minds. If they don’t then they are too dense to reason with anyway!

  • http://Patheos Mark Edward Hessinger

    Hey Frank, Brennan Manning died yesterday . . . or really began to LIVE, if the Bible’s not BS. Manning had almost as weird a life as you. Had you ever heard of him or heard him speak or, even, read any of his books? What do you think of his life’s message? -Mark
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKSofu9YlyQ

  • http://patheos Mark Edward Hessinger

    Frank,

    I got an idea that could really jazz things up in your comments sections. How about you and me have a real conversation? Let’s start with dear old Brennan Manning who I just asked you about yesterday?

    A real live conversation with me, a devoted fan who disagrees with you on enough to keep things interesting, could be fun and may end up being more readable than whatever it is you choose to write about on any given day.

    It sure as hell would beat the usual comments drivel that goes:

    “Oh, Frank, you’re so wonderful . . . ”
    “Frank, you asshole s.o.b. . . . ”
    “Frank, I used to be an Evangelical and blah, blah, blah . . . ”
    “OK, Frank, now you’re going to Hell for sure whether or not you believe in the place . . . ”

    Waddaya say, Pal? I’m game. Are you?

    -Mark

    • http://Patheos Mark Edward Hessinger

      You could call it, “Why I Still Talk To This Crazy-Ass Evangelical — In Spite Of Everything . . . ” ;)

  • http://www.bizvillebuzz.com/NTD/ Judson Vaughn

    Frank, I, too, was disappointed in your remarks to the college students. Not because I didn’t want to hear what you said. But because I thought you misrepresented yourself to a inquiring new audience.

    The tone was much like an alcoholic telling the rest of us to stop drinking. Too student for many to relate because they don’t come from that place. Plus, I expect that you were spent by the emotional roller coaster of your mother’s closed chapter.

    In fact, I did want to hear it. I want to follow your opinions, writings, and teachings because I want to learn and evolve with you.

    Anyway, thanks for posting. Now I am off to find another lecture / video so that I can cleanse my pallet.

    See you along the path,

    Jud

  • http://www.wideopenground.com Lana

    I listened to the lecture and loved it. I was raised in a fundamentalist (homeschool) household, thankfully not as a missionary kid (pressure was great enough in my own community). But my parents never told me about homosexuals, and I was raised in the 90s. The part of your story I relate to most is the part of not belonging to any group. Today that is me. The right won’t claim me, the left won’t claim me (or more like it, I don’t feel comfortable there). Thanks for sharing.

  • Mark H. Harris

    Frank,
    … your best lecture yet; and before you change your mind, I just wanted to say that.

    I appreciated every word… I’m in my late fifties, and I can testify that the “one” advice you gave those kids was right on… they will change their mind.

    I also happen to believe that you are right-on-the-mark to identify GWB as a war criminal, murderer, &etc. The comments were harsh— and they are true. GWB should have been impeached for his breaking of international law, and for his over-reaching power grab which cost the lives of over 6000 American combatants. We must ask, “Was it worth it?”

    I attended your mothers funeral and grave-side service today in Rochester. The sermon was fabulous, and the music was exceptional— your mother would have approved whole heartedly. Back and forth between St. Paul and Rochester (with emotional services at either end) made for a full and joyous day full of hope and enriched with the same art and music your mother is so famous for having loved herself, and shared. The Schaeffer family has once again blessed our community and enriched our lives.

    Udo made the comment, next to your parents monument, that the apple tree just to the left of the monument was planted (by him, I think) 29 years ago. It is quite tall today. It was planted we were told to enrich the lives of those who might pass by, or at least to provide an apple or two for their enjoyment.

    If you’re ever in Rochester sometime look me up; love to hang out with with you (have some coffee, or whatever) and talk. I have learned so much from your parents; I have learned much from you, and I have changed by mind a few times along the way too. I’ve bonked my head up against evangelical ‘pinheads’ a few times along the way and I’m better for having been there. I’m finishing up (now) with an M.Div. degree at Bethel Sem in St. Paul. I very much appreciated your comments about the gate-keepers. My I never fall into that trap.

    Thanks for your input… again, very good lecture.

  • GilbertDavis

    please give documentation that Jerry Falwell was a racist and only changed later in life. I have never heard anything about that and i doubt it very much.

  • GilbertDavis

    Your words were very unloving, unkind and not true.. I could not listen to it after you began to attack American Bible believers because they were not as worldly aware as you are (literature , the arts , science, etc.) . If you would stop and think a little more , i believe your main problem would be found to be , not Americans who believe God’s Word, but rather the systems of men who establish themselves over others Lording over God’s heritage. They are known as Nicolaitans . Life is very short Mr. Schaeffer . Some have found “The Pearl of Great Price” and have sold all that they have and invested in and made their priority that which is the most important and eternally lasting . They wish to know God and make Him known . Everything else may have it’s place but it is only second place and does not compare to knowing God ( HOLY LOVE) and making Him known to others ( Jesus is God incarnate) . The things that are seen are temporary , the things that are unseen are eternal . I challenge you to listen through the King James Bible at least three times before the year if over. I suggest the dramatized version so it will hold your attention better.

    • Matthew_Bailey

      Delusion.

      You really think that he hasn’t listened/read/studied the KJV, and OTHER versions of the Bible in depth?

      What is this arrogance of many Religious people who think that they are the only ones who “really understand” the Bible.

      If you understand it so well, did you know that the Bible has three verses in the New Testament that say, pretty explicitly, that to be a disciple of Jesus is to be damned for all eternity to a “Lake of Burning Fire” and to be “forever denied Eternal Life?”

      But, I am sure that you will have a perfectly good rationalization for why we should dismiss these three verses, yet obey literally others.

      • GilbertDavis

        Franky was given every chance and opportunity . In fact, he has had much more than most of us in terms of exposure to the Truth and having the blessing of Godly parents and teaching . He is responsible and much more would be required of him. Instead of growing strong in The LORD and being used of God , he stands as an example of one who only had and has head knowledge , never ever though believing and obeying from the heart that form of doctrine that was delivered to him. ( Romans 6:17). With many who seem to endure for awhile , the time of testing reveals the truth of who they really are and what master they serve . The love of money is the root of all evil . Since it appears he never had genuine faith , he has fallen prey to the god of this world who has convinced him to love this world and the things that are in it . He tries to comfort himself and his conscience by clinging tightly to the love of his wife and children as if this is the evidence for his value before God. Man’s love compared to The LOVE of God and what it took to save us , is not sufficient to rescue us from the condemnation and judgement that awaits. Franky needs to still “repent toward God and place his faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ .” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.( Hebrews 4:1)KJB.

        • Matthew_Bailey

          Since you are given to quote Bible verses:

          Luke 14:26
          “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”

          1 John 3:15
          “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

          Revelations 21:8
          “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

          And, before you apply the “but these are taken out of context” special pleading….

          They are no more “Out of Context” than the verses that you have quoted.

          I hope that you do not have a problem with understanding what these verses say, but just in case, I will spell it out for you:

          Luke 14:26
          To follow Jesus, you must hate (specifically, your family)

          1 John 3:15
          If you have hated, then you are guilty of Murder (and have no Eternal Life)

          Revelations 21:8
          If you are a murderer, you go to hell.

          By a direct syllogism:

          Follow Jesus = Go to hell.

          Oh…. And just for you, I used the KJB, and not the NIV, NLB, ESV, HCSB, ISV/B, NET Bible, KJ 200 Bible, God’s Word Translation, AKJV, ASV, Douay-Reims, Darby, ERV, or Webster’s, Weymouth, Word, or Young’s Bibles (So you can’t accuse me of being ignorant of the different translations or meanings).

          Also, just so that you know, I have a digital version of these with a Lexus-Nexis search capability so that I can cross reference any verse in the Bible by topic, keyword, contradiction, or agreement.

          Essentially, what I am getting at is that the Bible is a VERY POOR source of knowledge and information regarding behavior and ethics (It doesn’t even condemn slavery, but explicitly endorses it).

          So quoting the Bible to address shortcomings of any kind is rather pointless when it can’t even get its supposed central message correct.

          • GilbertDavis

            Dear Matthew , Luke 14:26 was speaking about being a disciple NOT about being a saved believer . The reference is about those who are already born again saved believers who He is asking now to take the next step to , “deny self, pick up their cross and follow Him”( Matthew 16:24) . It is about service and works AFTER one has already repented toward God and have placed their faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ . Thankfully salvation is a free gift of God that does not depend on our ability to do anything but trust in what Christ has done for us on The Cross. In regards to becoming a disciple , that is something that Christ would want you to decide for yourself . He will not force his saved children to continue on and follow him . He leaves this up to your free will and choice. If you have owned that you are not perfect and have trusted in Christ’s perfection and His sacrifice for your sins , then you are saved and a child of God and you will always be a child of God . Philippians 1:6 reminds us that if God began a good work in you by saving you , He will continue that work in you till the day you see Jesus face to face and will be perfectly complete. A disciple is one who works for blessings and rewards NOT for salvation . If you look what the first disciples paid in order to please God and win those rewards , you will know that in most every case it cost them their lives . He says to encourage them that their love for Him in order to accomplish this has to be much more than the love they may have known for family and relatives . As great as our love for family is , if you want to truly follow The LORD Jesus , your love for them , IN COMPARISON to the LOVE for Jesus , would be like hate . There have been those who have forsaken all to continue on to follow Jesus . Their eternal salvation was not dependent on it , but their blessings and rewards in Heaven were and are. Matthew, I think you already know this though that the thought was comparison and not that we should hate our family . This English usage is seen in other literature and writings . I John 3 : 15 , if you read the whole chapter, is speaking about CHRISTIAN brothers and those among us who are “sons of God ” . I do not know a Spirit filled child of God who hates his Christian brother . I would doubt his salvation if he did. I Corinthians 7:21 says concerning being a servant or slave that , ” if you can gain your freedom , use it rather” . Bond servants were made so , not by the will and command of God but by man who used this to pay back someone that they owed money to but that at the end of a certain amount years , they were to be made free. In other cases slavery was brought on by nations of men who conquered other nations and in particular backsliding Israel . It was not God’s pleasure or best that His people or any people would be slaves . The most destructive slavery today is that of being a slave to sin and the temporal and horrible eternal consequences that result . God in His great love and mercy , became a man and paid the penalty for our sins when He bore them in His own body while on the cross of Calvary . He did all He could do to save you and me . He asks that we confess that we are in need of HIM , that we are imperfect and that we sin because we are sinners . We then at the same time trust in His death , His shed blood and great sacrifice on the cross for us . We repent toward God and place our faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. If you do this and obey from the heart this doctrine delivered now unto you , you will be saved and have everlasting life . ( I John 5:13; Romans 6:17; John 3:3,16; I Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB. If you reject this offer from The One Who loves you the most, then you can expect Revelation 21:8 to be realized concerning you.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Of COURSE, you are right.

            Of course ONLY the verses that YOU pick are to be interpreted literally, and ONLY YOU are the arbiter of what was meant, while all other verses or interpretations, those which give you a problem or upset your agenda, are to be dismissed.

            How silly of me not to realize this.

          • GilbertDavis

            Matthew , I sense you are using sarcasm. I am sorry you think I have that kind of approach toward the Scriptures because I assure you that I don’t . I trusted Christ about 34 years ago when I believed from my heart and obeyed the Gospel by admitting I was lost and trusted in His death as payment for my sins and also believed in His resurrection . Actually I put my faith in The Bible that it was God’s Word and trustworthy and then when I read about what God did for me in the person of The LORD Jesus Christ , I believed it in my heart . Before that time I thought I was a Christian but I only had a head knowledge and I was more or less just wishing and hoping there was a God and Heaven , but I really was not sure deep down in my heart. When I obeyed from my heart , God saved me and i experienced the New Birth ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB. I was fortunate to have been led to a little Bible College in Pennsylvanian and caught up on much that I did not have growing up as an unsaved “good boy” Lutheran . The translation thing for me is more or less a decision and choice I made a number of years ago when I learned some things about the King James Bible as apposed to the other modern translations and Koine Greek I had a couple semesters with while at school . I try not to be contentious about it and rather just refer someone who asks , to some books and information that can best explain the reasoning for my adherence to the Authorized King James over others . Mathew , I do not think I know it all and am open to questions and discussion about differences people have about the Bible . I believe The Bible is The Word of God and rightly divided and understood , it is the greatest blessing and gift God has ever given man besides Himself and Everlasting and abundant life and love. Those last mentioned though are because of The Word of God . A verse that helps me not to be puffed up with pride and or arrogant , even though you think I sound as much , is ( I Corinthians 8:2) KJB. It says ” He that thinks he knows anything , does not know anything yet as he ought to know it ” Forgive me but that is more of a paraphrase I have quoted but the thought is the same . The idea is that even the things i think I may know , I don’t even know them as deep and as well as I should if I think I do . I hope that makes sense. I need to be open to knowing better even the things I believe I am absolutely sure of. . There are many mysteries in The Bible and some thing we may never understand fully or at all until that day Christ reigns on Earth and His Kingdom is over all , even when God will be all and in all( I Corinthians 15:28)KJB. . Those thing though that He has revealed are for us and our children that we may do what pleases Him . ( Deuteronomy 29:29; Jeremiah 17:9)KJB.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            And this is what we call “Special Pleading” (i.e. This is how it is, except for me. I’m special, and I know better than anyone else).

            Trusting Christ means nothing if you have no justification that can be validated be external means.

            All that means is that you are picking and choosing from the Bible what you believe based upon your own biases, and not because of any rational or reasonable set of verifiable standards.

          • GilbertDavis

            My bias was bent toward sin and self, no matter how much I may have tried otherwise . It would seem irrational and unreasonable for a holy God to love me or any of us . He has anyway and made a way for any to have abundant and everlasting life and love. ” Believe on The LORD Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” ( Acts 16:31)KJB.

          • GilbertDavis

            Yes , I do especially plead that you and everyone would trust in The LORD Jesus . Even if He would not have fulfilled over 300 prophecies about Himself , His message and Gospel would be enough.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            You still have not provided anything that would substantiate why I should accept your interpretation, and not another.

            And, you don’t seem to understand that “Special Pleading” is a logical flaw.

            It is creating an unjustified case simply because someone wishes to claim an exception.

            It would be like me saying “Everyone with Black Hair is to be put in Prison… Except me. I’m different.”

            I have no justification for my original demands, nor for why I should be excluded from those demands even though I fit the category I described as requiring exclusion.

            I don’t know what these “300 Prophecies” are.

            I’d need to see tangible evidence that was verifiable.

          • GilbertDavis

            Nobody is an exception but The LORD Jesus Himself .( I Corinthians 15:27)KJB. “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God “. “The wages of sin is death” . ( Romans 3:23; 6:23). There are no exceptions . We are all guilty and worthy of death and eternal separation from God because of our sin .Matthew, I am not quite understanding what you are objecting to . Are you objecting to the Bible , my “interpretation” as you mention , or something else ?
            The 333 prophecies are concerning The Messiah, The LORD Jesus Christ . Many of them were written thousands of years before his birth . It would have been mathematically statistically impossible for any man to have even fulfilled a few of those prophecies , yet The LORD Jesus Christ fulfills them all . There are many other prophecies in the Bible that have come to pass and many more soon to be realized . One of the earliest popular books that I read before my conversion was entitled , ‘The Late Great Planet Earth’ by Hal Lindsey c.1970. That sparked my curiosity and interest. There are many other authors today that have written about it who are reliable and more than qualified . Some of them include Dr Harry Ironside, Dr. Chuck Missler , Dr. John f. Walvoord, , Dr. Jack Van Impe, Dr. Peter S; Ruckman . There are many more who have written about it and I would suggest are worthy of your attention .

          • Matthew_Bailey

            You still don’t get it.

            You cannot use the Bible as a justification for itself.

            That is like using Catcher in the Rye as a justification for the behavior of Teenage Boys, and then claiming it is correct because it says so in the novel.

            Hal Linsey is not a reliable author. All of his claims have been shown to be false, misleading, or flawed. And Van Impe is an ignoramus.

            As for these “Prophecies”… Most are so vague as to be useless.

            Others are totally wrong (Tyre being Destroyed forever, for instance).

            Then there is the authorship of the Bible.

            Many of these “Prophecies” were written by witnesses of the events claiming to be “Ancient Authors” who were prophetic (much of Ezekiel is this way).

            I have noticed how accurate the predictions of these “Prophecies” coming true in modern times have been.

            None have been so specific as to mean anything, and the whole eschatology of Revelations is nothing more than a delusion.

          • GilbertDavis

            http://www.bbcmorehead.org/index.php?id=642 You do the rest of the work . I can’t be sending these all for you when you have the same ability to find them . You have been given the references and sources to answer ALL your objections and questions . You simply refuse . Slandering and railing on others does not help you . There is nothing vague about the exact place of his birth , setting , circumstances and other details about the person of Jesus Christ written thousands of years before His incarnation. The details , it’s all detailed . 66 books written by 40 different Inspired “penman” from several different countries over a period of thousands of years. And you or many would say it was all a conspiracy . ( 2 Timothy 3:16)KJB. Who is delusional ?

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Excuse me, but there IS no definitive evidence that Jesus even existed.

            ALL of the Gospels were written almost a Century after he lived.

            And the Old Testament is similarly filled with factual errors (there was no “Exodus,” nor captivity in Egypt, nor wandering the Sinai for 40 years, just as one example. The existence of David, Jerusalem, and Israel as a nation is in great doubt from the evidence, as another).

            It isn’t like I haven’t been studying these issues.

            The difference is that I am more concerned with factual evidence that with satisfying a Confirmation Bias, or Appealing to Special Cases.

            I haven’t slandered anything.

            I am simply reporting the facts of the matter, and using proper Critical Techniques when examining a claim that is being made to test it for veracity, validity, and soundness (i.e. are the premises true, and do the premises lead to the conclusion claimed).

            One of my late Professors (Joseph Campbell) spent his entire life meticulously researching the origins of different beliefs, focusing primarily upon the Levantine Monomyth (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). I spent over 25 years studying these same issues, and as such have no need or desire to “slander” anything or anyone.

            What I do have a need to do is to discover whether any of these beliefs align with the facts of our world (they do not).

            The beliefs are social constructs, intended to answer questions that were, at the time of their origin, unanswerable by any other means, and to construct social hierarchies that stabilized the smaller societies of the times. Fortunately, we now have a more reliable means of answering questions about the world than appealing to the supernatural.

          • GilbertDavis

            “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life”

          • Matthew_Bailey

            And why should I believe that one verse as opposed to the other three I posted earlier that directly contradict this message?

            You have no J-U-S-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-I-O-N for why this verse you have just posted is to have any more significance than any other verse.

            Especially when so much of the Bible has been shown to be factually wrong, or in direct contradiction with itself.

            I should know that you are completely incapable of understanding this.

            But you might as well be quoting Harry Potter, or “Casablanca” (The Bogart Movie).

            All three (The Bible, Harry Potter, and Bogart Movies) contain references to a few real world events.

            Yet all three also have things in them that directly contradict reality, and that you can’t refer back to the Bible to Justify the Bible.

            That is circular.

          • GilbertDavis

            18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

            19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

            20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

            21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

            22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

            23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

            24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

            25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

            26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

            27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

            28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

            29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

            30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

            31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. ( I Corinthian 1:18-31)KJB.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Quoting the Bible does nothing to Justify what the Bible says.

            Ignorance of this is one thing, but willful ignorance begins to look like idiocy or stupidity is someone consistently ignores facts.

            I could just as well quote from the Lord of the Rings to justify the Lord of the Rings.

            I might as well claim that I am king of Ireland and Spain, and then claim this is true because I said so.

            I would need something EXTERNAL to make this a sound and valid claim.

            Something like someone ELSE saying that I am King of Ireland and Span, and that someone else being someone with the authority to justify such a claim (Like Ireland and Spain’s population, or the previous King of those places – although only one still has a recognized Monarchy, and it is purely symbolic).

            I am going to turn this over to an AI script to respond now, since you seem to be bent on repeating yourself.

            You can just talk to a machine if that is the case.

          • Nick Gotts

            We really ought to put a preservation order on Gilbert Davis – such pristine ignorance, so carefully conserved, is a sight to behold. Particularly the “appearance of age” bit! Philip Gosse’s Omphalos was greeted with near-universal ridicule and derision when published in 1857. As his son Edmund said in his Father and Son:

            Never was a book cast upon the waters with greater anticipation of success than was this curious, this obstinate, this fanatical volume… He offered it with a glowing gesture to atheists and Christians alike. This was to be a universal panacea; this the system of intellectual therapeutics which could not but heal all the maladies of the age. But alas, atheists and Christians alike looked at it and laughed, and threw it away.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Isn’t it (the ignorance, and the lengths to which he goes to preserve it)?

            I had not thought about Omphalos in a long time.

            It is yet another monument to ignorance (although, to be fair, at the time, the dawn of the scientific method, we had little recourse to better reason) in this day and age.

            But, as I stated, people like Gilbert are not amenable to evidence. It just further reinforces their delusions and unjustified beliefs.

            My only point in that conversation is to make a record for others of the problems with Textual Authorities (Bible, Qu’ran, etc.). They tend to be not only riddled with factual errors, but also contain direct contradictions to their central message.

            That makes it rather hard to justify the works as being “Authoritative” about anything, when I can justify one interpretation just as easily as another.

          • Nick Gotts

            I’ve realized that my Omphalos reference may be puzzling to some: it was based on Gilbert Davis’s babbling that the earth was “created with the appearance of age” on another thread, and I confused the two. But actually, by 1857, that the earth was at least millions of years old was consensus science: the geological sequence from the Cambrian was fairly well-established, and the enormous depth of the strata concerned, the many geological nonconformities (where one set of strata have been tilted, eroded, then covered with further strata) and the radically different faunas revealed by fossils in different strata, made it abundantly clear that the earth was very old and had a long, complex history. Gosse accepted the existence of this evidence, but tried to reconcile it with Genesis. As Charles Kinsley, a friend of Gosse and a fellow-Christian said, it required God to have written in the rocks “an enormous and superfluous lie”.

            I agree with you about the problems with textual authorities: theological liberals are generally nicer than fundamentalists, but just as prone to rely on cherry-picking them and explaining away the bits that don’t fit.

          • GilbertDavis

            Man and “science” used to think that the earth was flat disk. The Bible revealed otherwise. ( Isaiah 40:22)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            That’s a straightforward lie. Isaiah 40:22 says:

            It
            is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

            There is nothing whatsoever there that even hints that the earth is not flat. That it was spherical was known to the ancient Greeks.

          • GilbertDavis

            ” The circle of the Earth”

          • Nick Gotts

            A circle is not a sphere.

          • GilbertDavis

            Science and man used to think that the ocean floor was flat. The Bible recorded thousands of years ago that the ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains . ( 2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            Your stupidity appears to know no bounds. Mariners have been able to observe that the sea is deep in some places and shallow in others ever since there were boats.

          • GilbertDavis

            “The circle of The Earth ” ( Isaiah 40:22)KJB “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereofare as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

          • Nick Gotts

            A circle is not a sphere.

          • GilbertDavis

            Nick , maybe you can help your friend Mathew with a response to my previous posts. It seems he is dumbfounded and is unable to answer to the discovery that the Bible was ahead of science on some very basic scientific laws and facts. You can add another in the fact that man and “science” used to think that winds blew straight . The Bible revealed thousands of years ago that winds blew in cyclones .( Ecclesiastes 1:6)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            It wasn’t. You’re simply lying. Whirlwinds would always have been observable, and there is nothing whatsoever in Ecclesiastes 1:6 that hints at larger circular motions.

          • GilbertDavis

            ( Ecclesiastes 1:6)KJB vs. 6 “The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.” Who is lying ? Let others judge as anyone can read the verse for themselves .

          • Nick Gotts

            There is nothing whatever there to suggest anything other than that the wind blows in different directions at different times.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            He’s talking to my chat-bot now.

            I wonder how long he’ll keep at it.

          • GilbertDavis

            Matthew , You did not respond so I guess you have no answer . Your about 5 responses behind so I will add one more until you can manage to be able to . Did you know that “science” used to think that air was weightless ? Do you not think it at least fascinating that the Bible revealed thousands of years ago that air has weight ? ( Job 28:25)KJB.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            The Bible’s “Revelations” do no work.

          • Nick Gotts

            No, because again, Job 28:25 says no such thing. It says God makes “the weight for the winds”, which is simply nonsense. It says nothing about air weighing anything. It’s clear that your method is simply to take a few words and interpret them in ways which no-one before the relevant scientific discoveries ever interpreted in the way you suggest. It’s blatantly dishonest. I thought Christians were not supposed to bear false witness, but that’s what you are doing.

          • GilbertDavis

            It sounds rather clear to anyone who can read . ” to make the weight for the winds ; and He weigheth the waters by measure” And while I wait for your thoughts on the other posts you ignore , let me add another. Some of the science of the past taught that sick people must be bled . The Bible teaches that Blood is the source of life and health. ( Leviticus 17:11)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            No, “to make the weight for the winds” does not say that the air weighs anything. Nor does saying that blood is the source of life say anything about medical treatment. That you need blood is obvious to casual observation, as people die if they lose too much.

          • GilbertDavis

            “.18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:18-21)KJB
            (2 Corinthians 4:2-6)KJB” 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Circular Reasoning is Circular.

          • GilbertDavis

            man and “science” used to think that there were only 1,100 stars. The Bible written 2000-3000 years ago, said that there were an Incalculable number of stars . ( Jeremiah 33:22)KJB.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Ignorance is as ignorance does.

          • GilbertDavis

            man used to think that the Earth sat on a large animal . The Bible revealed that it free floated in space . ( Job 26:7)KJB

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Thinking doesn’t seem to be working here.

          • GilbertDavis

            The Bible revealed that Creation is made of invisible elements (atoms) ( Hebrews 11:3)KJB. . Up until not too long ago “science” was mostly ignorant on the subject.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            The Bible and Ignorance. Such a Statement.

          • GilbertDavis

            “Science” used to think that all stars were the same. The Bible revealed that each star is different . ( I Corinthians 15:41)KJB.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Biblical Revelations are not Science.

          • GilbertDavis

            Biblical revelations are Truth. Often “scientific” ideas , are not . For instance , “science” used to teach that light was fixed in space . The Bible knew otherwise and reveals that light moves. ( Job 38:19,20)KJB.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Biblical Revelations are not Science.

          • Nick Gotts

            Total rubbish. It is apparent to the naked eye that light comes from the sun and the moon. As ever, you give no reference for your claims about what “science” used to teach.

          • GilbertDavis

            Ede, A. & Cormack, L.B. (2012). A History of Science in Society: From the Ancient Greeks to the Scientific Revolution, North York, Ontario, Canada: University of Toronto Press

          • Nick Gotts

            Don’t be ridiculous: citing an entire book is not giving an adequate reference. Quote, and give a page reference.

          • Nick Gotts

            More lies: differences in colour between the stars are visible to the naked eye. Evidently, you’ve never looked at them.

          • GilbertDavis

            yes , but they thought that they were all the same in substance . We now know that some were not even stars .

          • Nick Gotts

            Your biblical reference:

            1 Corinthians 15:41
            There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

            Nothing at all about the stars differing in substance, liar.

          • Nick Gotts

            Again, ignorance and dishonesty. Hebrew 11:3 says nothing whatever about atoms, while some among the ancient Greeks did have that concept.

          • GilbertDavis

            I added the word “atoms” because that is what science today calls them, though we now have gone even smaller in terms of what we cannot see . We may be on the brink of finding out that the universe is as infinitely small as it is large. Think about that Nick. No , you can’t because your mind is finite.” 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” ( Hebrews 11:3)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            You used the word “atoms” because you’re a liar.

          • Nick Gotts

            More ignorance and dishonesty from you: the idea that the earth sat upon a large animal is simply one of many mythical cosmologies, of which that in the OT is simply another, no more accurate than the rest.

          • GilbertDavis

            I am amazed that your not amazed that the Bible revealed before man knew that the Earth free floated in space.

          • Nick Gotts

            That’s because it did nothing of the sort. Vague language about the earth hanging from nothing won’t do. The earth does not “hang upon nothing”, it revolves around the sun.

          • GilbertDavis

            7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. ( Job 26:7)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            Jeremiah 33:22 does not mention stars in the KJV version. In other versions it says “the stars in the sky” i.e. stars visible to the naked eye, which number a few thousand. Again, you’re giving an interpretation which no-one gave before science discovered that there are billions of stars not visible to the naked eye. (I notice, incidentally, that in this as in other cases, you give no reference for what
            you claim “science” used to believe. I’ll bet that’s because you’re don’t have any such references, you’re simply
            parroting what other fundamentalists have told you.) The Bible is wrong when it says insects have four legs (Leviticus 11:21), when it says bats are birds (Leviticus 11:13, 19), when it says there was a flood covering the whole earth (Genesis 7), when it says all people are descended from a single couple (Genesis 5), when it implies that the earth is only a few thousand years old. It’s also full of contradictions, such as the incompatible genealogies for Joseph given in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, the incompatible nativity tales in Matthew and Luke, the stories of who went to the tomb Jesus had supposedly been laid in, what they found there, who they met, and who they told. It “reveals ” a psychopathic, sadistic, pathologically jealous, genocidal, misogynistic, dishonest, paranoid deity whom any decent person would loathe if it really existed.

          • GilbertDavis

            The King James Bible says ” 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.” The “host of Heaven ” would include much more than just stars but would not exclude that they would also be unable to be numbered . And yes, I have available several references from scholarly periodical journals and historical books on early scientific beliefs that verify what I have accused is true .

          • GilbertDavis

            much if not all of your other complaints and false accusations concerning the Bible can be answered at several sites . Two that come to mind are , http://www.carm.org and http://www.icr.org

          • Nick Gotts

            No they can’t, liar.

          • Nick Gotts

            There are estimated to be at least 100,000,000,000 stars in the galaxy, and about the same number of galaxies in the visible universe, meaning there are around 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the visible universe. Even if everyone in existence is descended from David and the Levites, that is 1,000,000,000,000 times less than the number of stars so by your own criteria, God was lying.

  • GilbertDavis

    would you rather they imprison parents that want to home school their children as they do in Germany ? I just wish you understood and believed what the Scriptures teach about the future. Men indeed are waxing worse and worse and your not going to alter or change the course this world is set to go in. You can at least not be in the company of the scorners nor walk in the way of the ungodly while we draw near our final destinies . Delight in God’s Word and go fishing for souls.

  • GilbertDavis

    ( I Corinthians 8:2 )KJB

  • Vaaljapie

    I was also a missionary kid with wonderful (although not perfect) parents. I thank God that they showed me the way and even more that He revealed Himself to me through His Word. My father died last year and I am writing a book about his life. May God keep me…

  • Guest

    Radical Right Cuban “Christians” I have Known-http://roadupward.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/ted-cruz-and-radical-right-cubans/

  • jeczaja
  • Matthew_Bailey

    I wonder how long Gilbert is going to carry on talking to my Chat-Bot?

    I am just upset that I need to go offline in a few moments to render some 3d images, and it will take my chat-bot offline with it.

    But I suppose that it won’t take too terribly long for the bot to catch up on any responses it misses during the render.

    • GilbertDavis

      I am sure you were curious enough to take a look but yet unable to answer.. Here is another tidbit. “Science” had taught that the oceans were only fed by rivers and rain . The Bible though revealed the truth that the Ocean contain springs . ( Job 38:16)KJB. There is allot more Matthew that demonstrates the wisdom and superior knowledge that God’s Word contains .

      • Matthew_Bailey

        Science is superior to any Biblical Revelation. Science can change. Biblical Revelation cannot (it’s a feature, not a bug).

        • GilbertDavis

          Science can only attempt to understand the things that are seen and the invisible forces that are not . Science changes because it often has it’s conclusions and answers wrong. The Bible tells all the truth and does not change because it is always right and always The Truth .

          • Matthew_Bailey

            The Bible says that the bat is a bird. Truth?

          • GilbertDavis

            “fowl of the air” KJB

          • Matthew_Bailey

            And a “fowl” is a Bird, isn’t it?

            DERP!

          • GilbertDavis

            A bird is a fowl and according to the Bible a bat is a fowl besides being a mammal. http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/bat-bird

          • Matthew_Bailey

            From the American Heritage Dictionary

            Fowl (noun):

            • any other domesticated bird kept for its eggs or flesh, e.g., the turkey, duck, goose, and guineafowl.

            • the flesh of birds, esp. of the domestic cock or hen, as food; poultry.

            • birds collectively, esp. as the quarry of hunters.

            The Bible says NOTHING about the Bat being a “Mammal.”

            Neither the concept of, nor the word “Mammal” would even exist for another 1700 years, or so. It was coined by Carl Linnaeus in 1758.

            And, a “Fowl,” as the dictionary says, is SPECIFICALLY A BIRD!

            DERP!

          • GilbertDavis

            and according to the Bible , a bat is considered a fowl for the purpose of excluding it as something that should be eaten under the old testament .

          • GilbertDavis

            Also, we must be aware that it is modern science that has a different classification system than ancient times. To the ancients, creatures such as a bat were considered birds since they categorized all flying animals as birds. If that is the category that they used, then they were correct. It is not an error. It is a difference of categorization procedures. The critic has imposed upon the ancient text a modern system of categorization and then said that the Bible is wrong. This is a big error in thinking.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            And thus the BIBLE IS WRONG.

            Considering the ancient classification system bore no association to reality or actual life.

            I am sorry, but you do not have anywhere near the ability to understand even simple issues concerning Science, much less understanding Cladistics.

            I think that I will return to letting my chat-bot talk to you if you insist on continuing.

            At least that way I can waste your time without wasting mine.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            I will take this time to interrupt my chat-bot, since it got an answer that was surprisingly topical.

            That the Bible cannot change is not a feature, but it’s greatest flaw.

            Aside from your prior idiotic claims that “Science” thought “such-and-such” but the Bible “had it right” (even though it didn’t, and this is just a version of the “Texas Sharpshooters Fallacy” – going back and drawing bullseyes around shots that missed the mark).

            First of all, “Science” didn’t “know” anything (if it even does today) prior to the 1600s, because it did not exist as a discipline until them.

            And modern science, as we practice it now, did not exist until 1950, when Karl Popper established the principle of Falsification as the basis for the Scientific Method.

            But, as my chat-Bot pointed out, the Bible’s “Unchanging Truth” says that Bats are birds, that Grasshoppers and other insects have four legs, that there was water at the beginning of the Universe (there weren’t even molecules at the beginning of the Universe).

            That science changes (as my bot said earlier) is a FEATURE, not a bug.

            If you cannot change as new information is discovered, then you cannot expand upon or improve your knowledge and model of the universe.

            If the Bible is such a “powerful source of truth” then why has not one single thing EVER been discovered through examination of the Bible?

            That the world was round?

            No… That was discovered by people noticing that shadows were at different angles in different parts of the world (also discovered in places before the Bible existed, and where the Bible would not be seen until the 1600s).

            That the Earth Orbited the Sun?

            No… The Church fought Galileo on that one, and only recently apologized and said he was right. That was discovered by several people, again by some who were not even in Christian areas.

            All the remaining claims you have made are equally lies.

            But let’s look at some of the Bibles other “Unchanging Truths”

            • That Slavery is perfectly OK. (MULTIPLE CITATIONS)

            • How about Leviticus 11:20: (4-legged Birds)
            All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you

            • The Deluge (Complete Myth) never happened.
            • Jews were never held in Captivity in Egypt, nor did they ever wander the Sinai for 40 years
            http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/the-jewish-thinker/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844

            That is from the Israeli State News Agency.

            Even the Jews admit that this story is a myth.

            • God has the Strength of a Unicorn
            Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of a Unicorn

            • That Earthquakes are caused by God getting mad (Strange that we have the capability to target the precise cause of Earthquakes now)
            Psalms 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken because he was wroth.
            Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of Hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

            MANY other verses in the Bible claim this same thing. Yet we have a very well established science of Seismology, which owes its existence NOT to study of he Bible, but to Geology (which itself has nothing to do with the Bible)

            • That the Earth is flat;that it has “corners;” there is an “end of the Earth” – a terminal location beyond which there is nothing; that God “sits above the earth, which is a flat circle (typical of ancient peoples, the Jews were not the only ones who believed this):
            Isaiah 5:26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the END OF THE EARTH…
            Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH
            Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH, and the inhabitants thereof as as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out as a curtain, and spreadeth out as a tent to dwell in

            • That the Moon gives its own light (and not reflected light from the sun):
            Ezekiel 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

            • The Entire History of the Book of Daniel. is wrong.

            • In the Book of Amos (as well as Genesis) they describe “Giants” or “Nephilim” which we know do not exist.

            I could keep going, with things like the Destruction of Tyre never happening, The Dead rising up in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus’ Crucifixion yet there being absolutely NO RECORD of this among the most literate and profligate culture on the planet at the time: Rome, or errors in the writings of the Apostles that contradict each other.

            If the Bible cannot change, then it will FOREVER be in complete contradiction with itself, and will be USELESS as a guide to ANY sort of knowledge.

            But science…

            It can change when it discovers that there is some knowledge which is in error.

            And how does it change???

            Not by consulting some revelation from 2,000 to 5,000 years ago.

            But by doing BETTER and MORE Science.

            But you stick with your unchanging “Truth” (that contains no less than 100,000 factual errors, inconsistencies, and internal contradictions).

            And I will stick with the Scientific Method…

            And let’s see which one comes up with the next cure for a disease.

            Let’s see which one comes up with the method to feed the growing population of the world.

            Let’s see which one comes up with the means to deal with neurological problems resulting in mental health issues, disease, and addiction.

            I would be willing to bet everything that I have, as well as my firstborn’s life, that the solutions to ALL of our current problems will come from Science, and not from studying some archaic book full of errors.

          • GilbertDavis

            all of your complaints and problems about the Bible have been thoroughly answered already by many others . You just simply refuse to search , understand and believe. Your problem and that of the world , is sin. The sin problem has been addressed and taken care of by God Himself. This world with all it’s pain , death and sadness , will someday be changed . “Life is short , death is sure , sin the cause , Christ The Cure.” Take the cure before the disease takes your soul to an eternity apart from God . ” repent toward God and place your faith trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21) KJB. If you don’t , it will
            be because you loved darkness rather than light because your deeds are evil . (John 3:19)

          • Matthew_Bailey

            I’ve read many of them.

            And each and every one of them has an ideological Blind-Spot the size of the sun.

            You still ignore the basic issue that having a fixed “Truth” is a problem.

            If we had a fixed “Truth” then slavery would still be legal, due to the Bible Supporting it.

            We wouldn’t have been able to rationalize away the literal interpretation of the Bible that says that Slavery is OK.

            And that is just ONE issue out of thousands.

            Which gets right to the heart of your ignorance and delusions that you are so desperate to hang on to.

            That you know neither what Science is, nor what it does, preferring fantasies and myth over basing decisions upon the real world and observations of it.

            Yes, science can only deal with what can be observed.

            Because what cannot be observed doesn’t exist.

          • GilbertDavis

            again , the Bible , did not support slavery . It acknowledged it and spoke about it including helping those deal with it. It also admonished that,” if you can gain your freedom , use it rather “( I Corinthians 7:21)KJB.. God also hates divorce but allowed it because of the ” hardness of men’s heart” . The Bible never said that slavery was ok and it never said that divorce was ok. Man is responsible for the oppression and abuse that came with slavery. Men also gave themselves over as bond servants to pay back debts that they otherwise could not pay. Mathew , the whole Bible is God’s Truth . Some things were written for a particular purpose , people . and time . Some know these as dispensations . Much of the Old Testament was given in view of the future Revelation and New Testament that would be seen and fulfilled in Christ . I Corinthians 13:10 describes it as thus .” But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” Some day soon Christ will appear again . Please make preparations and repent toward God (Holy LOVE) and place your faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ (God incarnate) ( Acts 20:21)KJB. ( I John 4:7,8; John 1:1-14; Isaiah 9:6; I Thess. 4:16,17; I Cor. 15:51,52)KJB.

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Poor source of information, the Bible. Bats are birds, slavery is OK. Just what we need for progress: Ignorance.

          • GilbertDavis

            your bot even has it wrong . It can’t read what i just wrote as apparently you can’t either My responsibility is to present the Gospel , care about your eternal well being and to pray. Only God can convince you .I pray you change your heart and mind . goodbye

          • Matthew_Bailey

            Great. You pray for me, and I’ll think for you. Just make sure to consult me before you do any thinking.

          • GilbertDavis

            I will remember that Matthew . Remember that God is Holy Love ( I John 4:7,8), He became incarnate in the person of The LORD Jesus Christ( John 1:1-14) and on the cross bore in His body the sins of the world . The Lord Jesus arose from the dead and has ascended into Heaven where He has gone to prepare a place for whosoever will admit their need by confessing they are lost sinners and repenting toward God, placing their faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ. All of this is according to The Scriptures . (Matthew 22:37,38,40)KJB “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy MIND ” 34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35Then one of them,which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” None of us has been able to do these two and is why we need The LORD Jesus Christ . We sin because it is our nature. Only Christ can save you from sin and it’s damage that it does now and the consequences of it later after you body dies. ” Call upon The Name of The LORD and thou shalt be saved” ( Acts 16:31)KJB.

          • GilbertDavis

            (I Corinthians 8:2)KJB

          • GilbertDavis

            “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” ( Isaiah 55:9)KJB

          • Nick Gotts

            A barefaced lie, as I have already shown. Come on Gilbert, why does the Bible say that insects have four legs? Why does it say bats are birds? Why does it give two incompatible genealogies for Joseph, and two contradictory nativity stories? Don’t wave your hands vaguely in the direction of your fellow-liars’ websites, give specific references and quotes.

          • GilbertDavis

            okay , you give those references for those items and we can look at each and every one of them , one at a time . I have heard them all and have included the web sites because they give detailed and thorough answers to each and every one. I do not remember though anything about the Bible saying that bats are birds, I will look into that . If your willing and i guess apparently lonely enough to entertain further discussion , I am willing to oblige .

          • Nick Gotts

            I’ve already given the references in an earlier comment, so evidently, you don’t actually read most of what I write. I have copied the relevant section of that comment for you, so you have no further excuse. Here:

            The Bible is wrong when it says insects have four legs (Leviticus 11:21), when it says bats are birds (Leviticus 11:13, 19), when it says there was a flood covering the whole earth (Genesis 7), when it says all people are descended from a single couple (Genesis 5), when it implies that the earth is only a few thousand years old. It’s also full of contradictions, such as the incompatible genealogies for Joseph given in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, the incompatible nativity tales in Matthew and Luke, the stories of who went to the tomb Jesus had supposedly been laid in, what they found there, who they met, and who they told.

            Confine yourself to those I mentioned a second time if you wish.

            i guess apparently lonely enough to entertain further discussion

            That’s simply bizarre: you are an obsessive commenter on this site, so by your own criterion, I guess you must be completely isolated, tapping out your dishonest nonsense from the basement you never leave. I just find lying and invincible ignorance such as yours offensive. However, I’ll have to take a break from our conversation from Sunday through Tuesday, as my wife and I are off to visit our son at university, then taking a couple of days’ holiday to walk through the autumnal woods together.

          • GilbertDavis

            I did forget you sited those. I have been busy with other things. I am glad for your blessing of a family . My disability enables me more time at home and on the computer. I suppose it is just laziness on my part that I am reluctant to repeat and answer things that I have heard over and over again and that have been answered by more qualified than myself. http://www.carm.org >< http://www.ICR.org . Ok, concerning your first problem found in Lev. 11:21 , and i will purposely not look at anything but the Scripture itself without consulting other reference work. I will note though when I do cut and paste something someone has said better . "Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;" Nick , from just looking at the verse in the King James , which is the only translation I trust, it appears that there is NO MENTION of "insects" . Insects as defined by modern entomology have certain criteria that they have established , this is true, BUT the passage here is speaking about a "flying creeping thing" . It could easily be a grasshopper and as such is why John the Baptist had no problem eating them , preferably I am sure , dipped in honey . I hope you have a nice trip and time with your wife and son.

            P.S. I don't live in ,stay, or have a basement , just a cheap second floor apartment. I am thankful though for food and raiment and very happy for those who have more.

          • Nick Gotts

            A grasshopper is an insect, ignoramus. It has six legs. There are no flying, creeping things that have four legs. Let’s look at the verse you quote, together with the next two after it.
            Leviticus 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
            22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
            23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

            See, there is no doubt at all about what is meant, in your trusted translation: it says that locusts, grasshoppers and beetles have four feet. They do not.

            Case closed, the Bible is crap, find something better to do with your life.

          • GilbertDavis

            sorry , I should have said locusts but either way my answer and the one I am posting assert that classifications of what is an insect were a modern invention and definition. Your insults and name calling are not helpful to you. http://www.icr.org/article/1844/

          • Nick Gotts

            What a pack of ridiculous lies. You insisted yourself on the KJV translation, what it says is quite clear, and quite clearly wrong. The back legs of a grasshopper or locust do not “rest ‘above’ their front legs and feet”, all six legs are used in walking, as seen here.

          • GilbertDavis

            A similar case can be made for “creeping things “. as the following says concerning your other problem about bats ” Also, we must be aware that it is modern science that has a different classification system than ancient times. To the ancients, creatures such as a bat were considered birds since they categorized all flying animals as birds. If that is the category that they used, then they were correct. It is not an error. It is a difference of categorization procedures. The critic has imposed upon the ancient text a modern system of categorization and then said that the Bible is wrong. This is a big error in thinking.

          • Nick Gotts

            Stop evading the issue. You insisted yourself on the KJV translation, what it says is quite clear, and quite clearly wrong. The back legs of a grasshopper or locust do not “rest ‘above’ their front legs and feet”, all six legs are used in walking, as seen in the video I posted. Grasshoppers, locusts and all other insects, whether mistranslated or not, have six legs, not four, and the Bible is wrong. Stop lying about it, and stop trying to move on when you and your fellow-liars of the ICR have been caught in a barefaced lie.

          • Nick Gotts

            With regard to bats and birds: yes, the ancient Hebrews classified bats as birds, but your whole schtick has been to claim (in every case, falsely) that the Bible is full of accurate information only later discovered by science. If we followed the Bible as you demand, we’d still be classifying bats as birds, even though their anatomy and physiology is that of a mammal – as was discovered by scientists long before the theory of evolution was formulated, I might add. Once again, the Bible is wrong.

          • GilbertDavis

            I disagree . Archaeology has also given evidence for the truth found in The Bible . Much has not yet been discovered but I am sure you are aware of the many recent finds that verify the claims in the Bible of certain cities and peoples . Biblical Archaeology Review is a secular journal but has logged many discoveries that have been unearthed that reveal that the Bible was right and man who denied or doubted , Wrong.

          • Nick Gotts

            You’re still trying to evade the lie about four-legged insects you were caught in. Biblical Archaeology Review is not a peer-reviewed journal but a popular magazine. However, here’s a quote from its editor, Hershel Shanks:

            archaeology does sometimes provide exciting evidence, for example, that indeed David existed and was the father of a dynasty, as shown by the Tel Dan stela. But archaeology also sometimes provides evidence that seems to refute the Biblical account. That is the case, for example, with the Israelite conquest of the land as described in the Book of Joshua. The various cities that the Israelites supposedly conquered simply cannot be lined up with the archaeological evidence. As I conclude after analyzing the evidence in the new third edition of our book Ancient Israel, “The conquest tradition in the Book of Joshua is therefore better seen as a literary, theological account, rather than an historical one.”

            Similarly, there is simply zero evidence of the Exodus – a supposed movement of hundreds of thousands of people. The evidence is absolutely clear that there has never been a flood covering the whole earth, and that all people are not descended from a single couple. Biblical inerrancy simply cannot be maintained by any honest person.

          • GilbertDavis

            too quick to conclude. The physical evidence has not been discovered yet as were other cities and peoples that many claimed did not but were discovered later . They are still digging and the majority of the sites do not contradict The Bible . The others, as your quote reveals, only ” seems to refute ” There is no conclusive evidence to dismiss the possibility of Israel’s battles and the cities they conquered . No sufficient current evidence found , does not mean The Bible was incorrect. Most often , man is in error about where to look and what had happened .

            I did not lie about four legged creatures . I showed the definition that The Bible accepts that predates the current definition . http://www.icr.org/article/1844/ Please read Dr. Henry Morris’s article for clarification .

          • Nick Gotts

            Yes you did lie about four legged creatures, and you are still lying about them. The Bible clearly says locusts and grasshoppers (and according to your preferred translation, beetles) are four-legged, and you keep repeating the lie that it is correct. Morris is lying too: I had already read and dealt with his lies above, and shown you a video of a grasshopper walking on all six legs. Stop lying.

            You are now also lying about what Shanks says about the Israelite conquests. He says quite clearly:

            The various cities that the Israelites supposedly conquered simply cannot be lined up with the archaeological evidence.

            You don’t get to pick and choose which archaeological evidence you accept, and it is grossly dishonest first to refer me to a source you claim supports your view (Biblical Archaeology Review), and then refuse to accept what it says when it doesn’t fit your stupid beliefs. Stop lying.

          • GilbertDavis

            You are willing to risk eternal damnation in Hell because of some verse you may or may not be understanding correctly. Your trying to distract yourself from the clear message of The Gospel and the consequences of rejecting it . Nick , a liar is someone who knows the truth but intentionally says that which he knows is not true . I believe what The King James Bible reveals as truth . One of the most important truths to realize is that you and I are sinners, .The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ . ( Romans 6:23). I have admitted that I am a sinner and in need of a Saviour . I believe The Gospel and have placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ . I do not know if you have done that or not . If not , then please stop stalling , quit being lied to by The Devil , The father of all lies , and , ” repent toward God and place your faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. Don’t let your sin and pride separate you forever from God and His love and gift of everlasting life . Unless The LORD appears soon to catch me up to be with HIM and the church at the rapture ( I Thess.4:16,17; I Cor. 15:51,52)KJB, you and I will die . You will stand before The One who is The Way , THE TRUTH and The Life. You will be judged against the standard of Holiness . You will fail to meet the requirement of perfection that heaven demands . Without Jesus who would have been your Saviour , without His imputed righteousness that would have been yours , you will end up in Hell and then cast into the Lake of Fire . DON’T GO THERE !!! PLEASE , Right now , admit your imperfection and sin. Trust Jesus to save you and grant you everlasting life. There is enough time to debate these side issues and problems that you think there are concerning textual difficulties . Don’t let the devil use those things to keep you from believing on The LORD Jesus Christ . ( Acts 16:31; 2 Corinthian 4:4)KJB. “.5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” ( I John 1:6-10)KJB.
            “13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” ( I John 5:13)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            You are willing to risk eternal damnation in Hell because of some verse you may or may not be understanding correctly.

            Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha. You might as well threaten me that the bogeyman under the bed will get me during the night, you delusional nincompoop. But you do in any case reveal what a disgusting individual you are: worshipping a being that you believe intends to torture people forever.

            Nick , a liar is someone who knows the truth but intentionally says that which he knows is not true .

            Such a person is indeed a liar, but you can be a liar in other ways, as you are: by refusing to face up to the gaping holes in your worldview, by attributing all disagreement with your predetermined conclusions to the influence of an evil supernatural force. I see you have given up your attempt to deal with the absurdities and contradictions in the Bible that I raised, in favour of preaching at me. That’s a clear sign that at some level, you know that you cannot provide an adequate answer.

          • GilbertDavis

            bye the way , there really is a bogeyman under your bed . I forgot to tell you that .

          • GilbertDavis

            and ALL your objections have been answered . You just ignore them because you do not like to think about the fact that you are going to be judged because of your sin. There is a remedy , BUT YOU REFUSE ! There is nothing more that God can do for you than what He has done .Stop throwing flack and Take the remedy !!! (Acts 16:31)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            You’re a barefaced liar. Here, for the third time, is the list of objections I gave:

            The Bible is wrong when it says insects have four legs (Leviticus 11:21), when it says bats are birds (Leviticus 11:13, 19), when it says there was a flood covering the whole earth (Genesis 7), when it says all people are descended from a single couple (Genesis 5), when it implies that the earth is only a few thousand years old. It’s also full of contradictions, such as the incompatible genealogies for Joseph given in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, the incompatible nativity tales in Matthew and Luke, the stories of who went to the tomb Jesus had supposedly been laid in, what they found there, who they met, and who they told.

            You have attempted to answer the first two of these, inadequately. You have not even attempted to answer the rest. Stop trying to change the subject by spewing your preachy vomit over me, liar.

          • GilbertDavis

            I answered them by directing you to those who have spent more time and study than you or I on those textual contentions and what you think are problems in the Bible that keep you from believing it and it’s most important message . In every case, if you search those sites, you will be shown an ample and reasonable explanation that support God’s Word and show It not to be wrong but rather both HOLY and True. There is a reason why you do not believe . It has nothing to do with these debatable side . issues that you use to hide behind . God sees through it all and right to your heart . ————->” 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” ( John 8:42-47)KJB. I list the following sites one more time that I have before . icr.org >< http://www.carm.org. These have ALL the answers to EVERYTHING you have mentioned . Why should I rehash or add to that for which has already been answered by others? If your still not satisfied , check out some of Dr. Peter S. Ruckman's books on manuscript evidence and textual criticism. I don't agree 100% with some of his teachings but his strength is in being able to convince . He is about 92 years of age and still going strong . He is entertaining as well but I would not suggest him for the weak or faint of heart. That means also , if your thin skinned "politically correct", ego centered or unteachable, your going to get offended .

          • Nick Gotts

            Waving your hands in the direction of a few websites and a book is not answering the questions. You don’t need to rehash anything, but you do need to make a good faith attempt to back up your claim that there are adequate answers to my questions by directing me to specific items on those sites dealing with the specific questions I raise. If you can’t point to such items, then clearly, your claim that there are such answers is completely unjustified, and you are shown once again to be a liar.

          • GilbertDavis

            Do I really have to cut and paste everything for you ? You do know how to use a search on those sites , right ? At this point I think your just playing with me and are probably a backslidden saved Christian trying to get some kicks. God bless you and have a nice life. For others , please avail yourself to the TRUTH found in God’s Word. Everlasting and abundant love and life is found only through , ” repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ . ( Acts 20:21 )KJB. carm.org>< icr.org

          • GilbertDavis
          • Nick Gotts

            No, you don’t have to cut and paste everything for me, and it is another lie to imply that I have asked you to do that. You do have to do make an honest attempt to respond to the points I raised by pointing to specific answers to those points, as you did with regard to the four-legged insects, or stand revealed as a blustering liar who doesn’t actually have the answers he claimed to have. I’m not going to trawl through reams of garbage for you: I have raised specific absurdities and contradictions in the Bible; you made the claim that there are adequate answers to the points I raised, so it is your responsibility to back that claim with specifics, or to admit that you don’t have them. At this point, it is quite clear that either you don’t have such specific answers, or else you know very well they will not withstand critical scrutiny – just as the answer you pointed to concerning four-legged insects failed to do.

          • GilbertDavis

            no , it’s just that I am too lazy and my responsibility to you before God is to simply present The Gospel . The reason for my hope is found in a person , The LORD Jesus Christ . I can testify to you that He is God and that He is faithful to those who have trusted Him and in His provision for our sins. Jesus bled and died at Calvary’s Cross bearing our sins in His own body . He arose from the dead and is now preparing a place in Glory for whosoever will believe on Him. The clock is ticking , our time on Earth is running out . Call upon The Name of The LORD and thou shalt be saved. Even if it is your last breath. He is merciful , slow to anger and of great compassion . God is love. I pray you get a good dose of LOVE today and get a taste of what Heaven will be like for those who know Him. If you can argue against love and say it does not exist then you will have proved there is no God. . ( I John 4:7,8)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            How have you filled what you believe to be your responsibility by demonstrating that you are a blustering liar?

            If you can argue against love and say it does not exist then you will have proved there is no God.

            That is both ridiculous and contemptible. Of course love exists, as I know from my loving relationships with family and friends. Perhaps you are not fortunate enough to have such relationships, in which case you have my pity. But the god you worship – and I would not say this of all believers – is one of pathological hatred and sadistic cruelty, as clearly shown by your threats of eternal damnation in hell.

          • GilbertDavis

            I am glad you say you believe love exists . I hope you know LOVE which is different from believing it exists. If you know love then you know God , for “GOD IS LOVE” ( I John 4:7,8). It is easy to say you love those that love you but The LOVE that is the “substance” or the true spiritual essence of Who God is, is much more than that. Holy Love became a man and demonstrated Himself by suffering what would be equal to what it would be like to burn on fire in Hell forever. He did this to rescue and save any from ending up in that literal burning hell . If I did not care , I would not warn others including yourself . God has allowed you to taste a little of His Love and goodness through those, ” loving relationships with family and friends “. I hope HIS goodness to you leads you to repentance toward God (Holy LOVE) and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ .

          • Nick Gotts

            Your beliefs really are utterly disgusting, as well as ridiculous.

            He did this to rescue and save any from ending up in that literal burning hell

            According to Christian belief, God is omnipotent. It follows that if there is a literal burning hell, and people in it screaming in unending agony, that is God’s choice. It is God that puts them there and keeps them there. You worship a psychopathic sadist of infinite evil – fortunately an entirely imaginary one, but it says all too much about the sort of person you are. You might as well stop preaching at me, because nothing said to me by a self-righteous liar who worships infinite evil is going to make a positive impression.

          • GilbertDavis

            God is Holy . You and I are not . That is why WE need a Saviour .” 20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” ( I Corinthians 2:20-24)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            You continue to spew your disgusting apologias for endless sadistic torture. Your god makes Hitler and Stalin, Vlad the Impaler and Ted Bundy, look like paragons of compassion and altruism.

            He can do whatever He wills or chooses . We should be thankful that He has chosen a way to save any of us.

            If he can do whatever he wills or chooses he could save all of us. According to you, he chooses to torture many of us forever instead, which is infinitely evil. Why do you worship infinite evil, Gilbert?

          • GilbertDavis

            “9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”(2 Peter 3:9)KJB.
            “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”(Romans 10:13)KJB.

          • Nick Gotts

            Even for a chatbot that would be a pretty poor response, Gilbert. You can’t refute my demonstration that the Bible is packed with absurdities and contradictions, you can’t refute the charge that in worshipping an eternal torturer you are worshipping infinite evil, you can’t even choose apposite biblical quotations – neither of those has any meaningful connection to anything we’ve been discussing. Did you just open your infallible KJB (which tells you beetles have four legs) at random?

          • GilbertDavis

            ” The LORD ……. is NOT WILLING that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance.” ( 2 Peter 3:9). “Whosoever” means who ever wants salvation .

            The Beetles had eight legs altogether, unless you don’t count Ringo .

          • Nick Gotts

            They were the Beatles, ignoramus.

          • GilbertDavis

            Ginosko

          • GilbertDavis

            25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
            ( I Corinthians 1:25)KJB. Since God is God , He can do whatever He wills or chooses . We should be thankful that He has chosen a way to save any of us , and it is at the greatest cost to Himself . The horrible penalty of sin clearly revealed in The Bible , is what The LORD Jesus was willing to pay for us . None of us deserve this grace and mercy . It is the self-righteous man who reject it .

          • GilbertDavis

            four legs , two arms

          • Nick Gotts

            If this is supposed to be a reference to locusts and grasshoppers, it is just another lie – and I notice you’ve changed the lie, having said nothing about arms before now. Grasshoppers and locusts have six legs and the Bible says they have four. Stop lying.

          • GilbertDavis

            http://www.pandora.com/bob-dylan/slow-train-coming/man-gave-names-to-all-animals Maybe some Bob Dylan can help explain some things to you.

          • Nick Gotts

            Stop trying to change the subject. Bob Dylan is not relevant to the falsehoods and contradictions in the Bible: he is neither a scientists, nor an expert on the relevant languages and cultures.

          • GilbertDavis

            Today, locusts are considered migratory grasshoppers. They all have two large hind legs, quite different in appearance, size, and function from the front four legs. Their front legs are used for “crawling, clinging, and climbing,” while their back legs rest “above” their front legs and feet, and are used for “jumping.” Furthermore, the Hebrew word translated “beetle” actually comes from the verb “to leap,” implying a similar leaping insect, not our modern beetle. Thus, the Biblical description of grasshoppers turns out to be exactly anatomically correct. Far from being an embarrassment to Bible believers, this passage bears sterling testimony to the accuracy and inspiration of Scripture. As always, arguments which claim that the Bible is wrong are themselves wrong, and the Bible still stands!

          • Nick Gotts

            Grasshoppers and locusts have six legs and the Bible says they have four. Stop lying.


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