Here’s what to expect from the Pharisees Scattered through the Tradosphere

It’s pretty much summed up in this reader’s report:

The trads at Rorate Caeli are gnashing their teeth already. It’s simultaneously depressing and amusing. The things that horrify them are . . . curious. It seems to disturb them that he asked the throng to pray for him. Seriously–they’re upset that the Pope said, “Pray for me.” That he seems to have refused the mozetta, and only briefly wore the stole, has also set them off. Trads are so obsessed with papal couture and pomp that humility and simplicity openly offend them. What curious people.

Where the MSM will see a theocratic fascist wolf in Franciscan clothing, the Tradosphere will see a sinister heterodox Jesuit liberal lurking beneath the trappings of the papacy. Traddery generally wants the Pope to hit all the marks as far as ceremony and aesthetics goes, so violations in this department are seen as signs of sin, not of humility or diversity. Above all, Traddery wants a Church and a Pope exercising political power and kicking people around who are not up to snuff for the Trads. So this whole asking people to pray for him gesture was a huge turnoff for the Trads at RC, who want a Pope like Innocent III or, better still Julius II, ready to go out there and make war on most of the actual members of the Church in order to drive out the Impure neo-Catholics (i.e., almost every member of the Church) and make thing comfy for the Trads huddled in Fortress Katolicus. Evangelization is, in this worldview, one of the biggest dangers the Church faces, because Jesus has inexplicably called Catholics to keep bringing in all these non-Catholics into the the Church who screw everything up with their indigenous cultures, non-European worldviews, and (shudder) non-Trad aesthetics. Francis’ gestures were an ominous signal that he does not share the views of those in Fortress Katolicus and will continue the unfortunate pattern of New Evangelization begun by John Paul the Overrated and Benedict, the Pope saddled with Vatican II.

  • Cephas

    I was reading their commentary. so much anger. and despair. Where did the Spirit go??

    • Rosemarie

      +J.M.J+

      The Spirit was with all those who rejoiced over the new pope and received his Urbi et Orbi blessing. It’s sad that some refused to enter into the joy of the Spirit on this blessed day.

    • midwestlady

      The progressives are no better. The comboxes over at NCR are filled with people gnashing their teeth over gay rights and abortion and women priests, as usual. Pope Francis is not a great hit over there either.

  • dpt

    Why bother reading or linking to them?
    Let them be–though say a prayer.

  • Ryan

    The whole crowd at RC needs anger management classes. It’s been an hour and they’ve already called His Holiness everything from a heretic to an ambitious fraud.

    • midwestlady

      Hahaha, are you Catholic? I”m a convert. It’s part of the family yell. It’s terrible but where else would I go to get the Eucharist?

    • http://chicagoboyz.net TMLutas

      I don’t generally read RC but I dipped my toe in today. While there are people there who truly need to relax a bit, there are others there who are behaving perfectly properly, praying for Francis and giving the fellow a chance before they render any sort of opinion on him. Those people do not need anger management and I have no reason to believe that they are not trads. In fact, they may be more representative of trads than the hot heads.

      • midwestlady

        Have no fear. For just a few days after the election of a pope, we mysteriously revert to the rough-and-ready days of the early Church for just a little while and all have it out, more or less. We love each other, but this is a brother-to-brother thing. LOL. We’ll be back to our normal selves here, more or less, shortly. Bear with us.

  • Susan

    Pope Francis’s ties with Communion and Liberation put him squarely in the “camp” of Benedict XVI in matters of faith and reason, morals, beauty, truth, and goodness, etc. Don’t see why anyone is cryin’ over the mozetta.

    • midwestlady

      Only some are. We have a whole lot of post-Reformation types, mostly cradle Catholics, for whom appearances are everything. It’s a history thing. It’s not a bible thing. It’s a very Catholic thing.

    • http://www.pilgrimage.subcreators.com Lori Pieper

      I wonder if some of those crying over the mozzetta recall the black sweater Pope Benedict wore under the whole ensemble on his first balcony appearance. I grin to myself every time I see it — it’s totally non-regulation and clearly visible under those white sleeves. And I don’t think anyone wailed then — probably because the new Pope was already known for his punctilious views on the liturgy and papal wear. Punctilious yes, but he didn’t want to catch cold either. He knew there is a time and place for everything.

      Dear Papa B. . . sigh. I’m just going to have to get over missing him so much.

      • Chris M

        I’m with you on that, Lori.. I’m sure I’ll warm to Francis, but my heart and affection have always been strongly with Papa Ratzinger. Hard to adjust.. I guess now I understand better why JPII folks had a difficult time after Benedict’s election.

  • Theodore Seeber

    http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/sacramenti-sacramentos-the-sacraments-17899/

    I think this means that we have a Pope who will tick off both extremes. Long Live Pope Francis I, enemy of BOTH moral relativists and neo-clerical pharisees.

    • Will

      …. we just had one of those, showing that he was doing things right.

  • rachel

    Ugh, sometimes I wonder why I am a trad :( . I love the extraordinary form, the old traditions, the old devotions, etc. However, I know that there are over a billion Catholics in the world and so not everyone is going to like the same things. I don’t think he will do anything with the liturgy that Pope Benedict reformed. To me, Pope Francis will be good for other stuff: cleaning up the Curia (hopefully), foster evangelization, and unity. That is so important. Not all of us trads are like the ones I saw on Rorate Caeli. I’m upset at their reaction. They completely misinterpreted his plea for prayers. He wanted us to pray to God to bless him and I did exactly as the Holy Father asked us to do. He looks like he has just undertaken an Atlas like weight on his shoulders (which is exactly what he has done) and he needs all the help that he can get. So, viva il Papa Francis I. God bless him!

    • Kurt

      Thanks, Rachel, I agree with you!

    • Mike K

      God bless you, Rachel!

    • Timothy

      Rachel, I agree completely. I, too, am a traditional Catholic. In fact, I sing Gregorian chant in the schola for the traditional Mass every Sunday. However, I try always to remember that the Gospel (remember that?) is traditional! It seems to me that Pope Francis believes in the Gospel. I expect him to restore the credibility of the Church and to reform the curia.

    • midwestlady

      Yes, I love pretty things, but to me they are pretty things. History is more important and it can be symbolized through pretty things. But the most important thing is the mission of Christ, which is our mission. Matthew 28:18-20…….
      18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[d]

    • http://Www.catholicalcoholic.com Number 9

      I agree rachel I am a trad too. I wish mr Shea wouldn’t paint us all with the same brush. The trades he speaks of represent such a small but vocal part of the Church. Plus I think the Trads mr Shea labels so harshly he completely misunderstands their motivations. I try to like Shea’s blog because he is funny, witty which I love. But he seems to discount the true motivativations of the Trads. As for our new Pope Francis yay!!!! The Church has ALWAYS been and will continue to be for the poor. JPII and B16 advocated on behalf of the worlds poor and Catholic Charities grew under them to be the 2nd largest contributor to the poor just behind the us govt. but because JPII and B16 also advocated Church teachings on abortion and marriage they were labeled conservative. Maybe Pope Francis being a Jesuit will be the thing that convinces these people the Church has been for social justice all along.

  • Justamom

    I certainly don’t know as much as you about these things, but, as a simple mom, my first reaction was sheer joy because of my love for St. Francis and his role as peacemaker. He shamed the hierarchy with his humility and made it his life long work to end the Crusades so that people could live in peace. Long live the Fool for Christ!

  • Debra

    This traddie will be happy so long as he teaches orthodoxy, which he is already known for, and allows me to keep my Latin Mass.

  • http://www.parafool.com victor

    OMG NO MORE POPEMOBILE WE R GONNA HAVE A POPE BUS?! NO NO NO NO NO!

    • midwestlady

      Might have a pope bicycle. ;D

  • http://a-star-of-hope.blogspot.com JoAnna

    God bless Pope Francis I! I’m thrilled.

    • Rosemarie

      +J.M.J+

      Amen. I felt such joy at the announcement. It’s so sad that some of my Catholic brethren don’t feel that joy on such a momentous occasion. God has truly blessed us.

    • The Next to Last Samurai

      Had he become the first Pope Bubba, as I hoped he would, he could have had a Papal Pick-up truck.

      • j. blum

        Hey, you can’t get much farther south than Argentina, so perhaps you could dub him an honorary Bubba.

  • Longinus

    Disappointed with both the RadTrads who are already railing foolishly against a Pope who is in all actuality very traditional, and with you a little bit, Mark, for lumping in all traditional-minded Catholics with the wingnuts. Have charity; just because we disapprove of Vatican II and want the Church to return to the Latin Mass doesn’t mean we all hate non-Catholics and reject evangelization. Speaking fully as a “Trad,” I’m quite excited for Francis I’s papacy. May God bless him.

    • Mark Shea

      I don’t lump all Trads in with the wingnuts. I specifically singled out the Pharisees of the Tradosphere. Not all trads are Pharisees. You, for instance.

      • Longinus

        Fair enough. My apologies if I misread your post in any way. (I do love your blog, if I may say that without seeming a suck-up! :P )

  • Mary

    Glad to see your pontificate doesn’t seem to be changing Mark.

  • Debra

    I don’t even reject Vatican II. I just want to keep my Latin Mass and be able to veil myself in deference to His presence without being accosted by feminists who think I’m “turning back the clock on women’s rights by 100 years” in doing so. From what I can learn of him, Francis I is a wonderful choice, and I like that he chose the name Francis very much. Vive il Papa!

    • CK

      “I just want to keep my Latin Mass . . . ”

      FYI, it’s not your Mass.

      • Scott W.

        No it’s not anyone’s Mass specifically, but it not only is it everyone’s Mass, it’s patrimony that should not be lost due to neglect and ignorance.

  • Lizzie

    Well, if you disapprove of Vatican II, you won’t like this Pope much I don’t think. Vatican II was about alot more than Latin Mass, and from having read some of the statements of Cardinal Bergoglio, he is very much in line with John XXIII in many areas.

    • midwestlady

      And then again, if you want the Church to throw a big party and get it on, this isn’t going to be your pontificate either. I hear that this new pope is very moral and prayerful. He even quotes Scripture now and then, I hear. He’s against abortion, gay adoption etc etc etc.

  • Dominic

    I agree with Longinus. Be a little nice on some of us traditional minded folk please. We don’t all fit into the same category. I’m also excited for Pope Francis’ papacy. I believe the reaction at some well known blogs might be of the knee-jerk variety.

    • Susan

      I’m with you. I love the Extraordinary form, which I attend every Sunday, and I also love Communion and Liberation’s “Traces” magazine, which I never miss, and ALL the philosophical writings of John Paul II (very phenomenological) etc. etc. etc. I loved Benedict XVI for his Balthasarian theology as much as for returning the Extraordinary Form.

    • contrarian

      Indeed. Like any trad, I love our new pope’s humility and his anti-capitalist stances, but there seems to be some truth to the fact that he’s been a bit meh (to be charitable) on Summorum Pontificum.
      For some of us this is concerning and deeply worrying.
      And yes, give the trads a break, please. Cooler heads will prevail in the weeks and months ahead. First reactions are always a bit hysterical.
      Also, keep in mind that the trads, and most certainly those who originally coined the pejorative term neo-Catholic, will love our new pope’s anti-capitalist stance. My goodness are the National Review Catholic-types going to sh*! a brick with this guy.
      And anyway, I completely endorse Rorate’s most recent post:
      http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/oremus-pro-pontifice-nostro-francisco.html

  • http://suchaprettybubble.blogspot.com Charlotte Dey

    My husband says you should trademark “traddery.”

  • Ivan K

    In the com boxes of Rorate Caeli and other trad sites the Shea epigones are already cheering the excommunication of the “traddies” that they are sure will happen tomorrow. It’s wonderful to see the charity and love coming from the “obedient” Catholics. I guess it’s a sign of things to come.

    • James H, London

      Barking. Just barking.

  • vox borealis

    Poking fun at Radtrads is easy, but I do agree with them, sort of, in one way: ceremony and aesthetics, those things which seem to be pushed aside here as superficial, are (or should be) part and parcel of the new evangelization. The form, function and meaning are inextricably linked, and the iconoclasm of the last 50 to 100 years has been pretty much an abject failure, just as it was a disaster way back in the 8th century.

    So I for one hope that Pope Francis keeps up with some of the momentum started by Benedict XVI in terms of greater decorum and more elevated aesthetics in things liturgical, even if his main focus is likely to be elsewhere.

    • Dustin

      The sign to watch for if you’re focusing on liturgy: whether he keeps Guido Marini around. It looked, today, like Msgr. Marini practically had to lasso the pope with that stole before the Urbi et Orbi.

      • deiseach

        For goodness’ sake, give the poor man five minutes! He probably was stunned enough about having to change into the white cassock without worrying about the mozzetta (maybe he didn’t feel cold and thought he’d be too warm if he put it on?) or the stole – I don’t think it was so much a case of having to be lassoed with the stole as being in a daze and not sure of what you’re wearing.

        That is, after all, why we have Masters of Ceremonies in the first place – to make sure that things like “Put your stole on now, read from this book, here’s the microphone, go out this door” go smoothly.

        • Dustin

          I am misunderstood. I symphathize with the shock he must have immediately undergone. I don’t mind at all the way he chose to appear, and I don’t wish to seem as if I were criticizing him. It’s just quite different, visually, from his predecessors’ public debut. I am not a trad, sartorially speaking or otherwise. But for those interested in watching out for liturgical signifiers (of whom I’m not really one) Marini’s job security is the big one.

          That he appeared to forego the whole Gamarelli ensemble means less to me than what he’ll do to drive corruption out of the Curia and careerism out of the episcopate.

    • contrarian

      Thanks, vox. Quite right.

      But it’s more than aesthetics and smells and bells. It’s the content of the prayers, as I’m sure you know.
      The slash and burn job (in the collects, etc.) is simply frightening, and Benedict did much to rescue what was lost by restoring the 1962 Mass and encouraging its use. By restoring this Mass, and allowing priests to say it without having to go through a million Soviet-style hoops, the folks in the pew got more than smells and bells. They got better and richer prayers.
      I think I’m saying something which is totally uncontroversial here.

      The reason the trads are worried is that our new pope seems to have been if not openly hostile to the traditional Latin Mass, at least less than supportive. The traditional Latin Mass is unmistakenly Catholic, and our new pope seems more concerned with ecumenical unity for the sake of peace and justice. Again, I love his anti-capitalist stances, and I love his willingness to work with others to solve the problems wrought by capitalist thugs, but I’m worried about things like this:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BkeaWNH2kCE

      • Mark Shea

        Or it *may* just be possible that the urine and vinegar wing of Traddery have been such jerks that he did not feel a burning need to care about their jerkish obsessions.

        • midwestlady

          “…the urine and vinegar wing of Traddery,” ROFLOL.
          Kind of goes with the “buttocks and bad music of anti-Traddery,” huh?
          A marriage made in hell. Luckily most Catholics aren’t really ensconced in either extreme.

          • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

            now trending on patheos… #urineandvinegar

            Your welcome!

      • Mike Harrison

        Thank you for the link. Beautiful to watch. Good for Cdl. Bergoglio!

  • Dustin

    Oh, dear. Mark, did I just start a blogwar or something?

  • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

    Whew. For a minute there I thought Catholics around the world might unite. Thank goodness that didn’t happen.

    • midwestlady

      Absolutely. It would leave us nothing to talk about.
      Heaven forbid we talk about Scripture, huh?

  • Justin

    Francis’ theology is beautiful. Like Benedict, his emphasis on Christianity being a personal encounter with Christ, a response to the grace which has sought as out first is compelling in both its accuracy and in its beauty.

    Francis’ liturgical sense is not Ratzingerian (which is my personal preference) in the externals of that I am certain, but it doesn’t have to be either the EF or the clown mass. You can have simpler liturgies that are also very Christological. It’s the big thing about Catholicism – its broad enough to encompass Barroux and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, rococco baroque and the small house Church, plainchant and counterpoint, homophony and polyphony – and yes in Pope Francis, even Jesuits and Franciscans!

    • Dave P.

      You can have simpler liturgies that are also very Christological. It’s the big thing about Catholicism – its broad enough to encompass Barroux and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, rococco baroque and the small house Church, plainchant and counterpoint, homophony and polyphony – and yes in Pope Francis, even Jesuits and Franciscans!

      Well said.

    • midwestlady

      You saw him for precisely 4 minutes. How can you know his entire theology already? What on earth are you people drinking?

  • http://www.google.com Mark

    Mark, it really is too bad that within hours of the Pope’s election – the Pope being a symbol and sign of unity among the Body of Christ – you post this screed against fellow Catholics. And they *are* fellow Catholics, you know.

    It is extremely disappointing, and not at all consistent with the spirit of the day.

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

      I think it is more that people are a bit sick of some of my traditionalist brethren who the moment he was elected Pontiff, you know they were googling his name for dirt and looking for a reason to dump on him. Having questions is one thing, I think we all have them, especially faithful traditionalists. Yet the SSPX shills like “New Catholic” aren’t interested in questions. They are interested in pronouncements, and the more they stir the pot, the better.

      I don’t neccessarily have to “like” Mark Shea to agree with his sentiments here.

      • Mark Shea

        We agree completely. There are a lot of fine Traditionalists. You sound like one of them. But the nasty and unpleasant people who go looking for a reason to be miserable: no thanks.

      • Scott W.

        I think it is more that people are a bit sick of some of my traditionalist brethren who the moment he was elected Pontiff, you know they were googling his name for dirt and looking for a reason to dump on him.

        Exactly. Where was all the hue and cry before the election? Few had ever heard of him before this.

    • Mark Shea

      If “posting against” you mean “quoting” then guilty as charged. I am quite ready to acknowledge them as fellow Catholics. Would that they could do the same for us unclean “neo-Catholics”. It is characteristic so much of Traddery that it reads people out of the Church and then complains about being victimized. Cry me a river.

  • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

    The urine and vinegar wing of Traditionalism really just needs to be ignored. It has been roughly 10 years I’ve been going to the Extraordinary Form almost exclusively, and as much as they hate it, they are a minority even amongst traditionalists. I’ll wait to actually see what happens before I worry. Quite frankly, if he leaves us traditionalists alone, all the better. Let us faithful traditionalists do our own thing and bring people to our venerable traditions and beautiful liturgy.

    Honestly, that’s what the overwhelming majority of devotees of the Extraordinary Form want. We want to be left the heck alone. If Pope Francis manages to clean out the cesspool that is the Roman Curia, I don’t care if he’s wearing a crown or not.

    • Mark Shea

      “The urine and vinegar wing of Traditionalism”. Stealing.

      • Will

        What happened to “the Lidless Eye Brigade”?

    • contrarian

      HI Kevin,
      Good thoughts. I’d slightly disagree with you, though. I guess one could argue that with the passing of Summorum Pontificum, we can be left alone. But ideally, we want someone who will *encourage* the use of the old Mass, as its prayers are more doctrinally rich and better able to enrich and sustain the faith. So really, we should want a pope who demands the use of the Latin Mass, or at the very least, encourages its use.

      I mean, we aren’t asking the pope to take a bic lighter out of his new white cassock and burn a copy of Sacrosanctum Concilium, but we still want to get the old Mass more widely used, right?

      • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

        I’ve watched the Latin Mass in my native Detroit go from 10 years ago one SSPX chapel (I had to drive 90 miles to the indult in Flint!) to 2 full Latin Mass parishes (where it is offered every Sunday and numerous days during the week and all Holydays), and 4 of them (at least) where it is celebrated monthly or more. We didn’t need a Pope to spend day after day encouraging the Latin Mass, as nice as that would have been. We just needed one to give us a chance to celebrate it, and let the majesty of that Mass do the rest. In the end, its up to us to use the advantages God gives us.

        So yes, it would be nice if we had a Pope who did that. But if we don’t, and he simply lets those who love the Latin Mass do their thing, it will grow on its own.

        • Mark Shea

          More Traditionalists like you, Kevin.

          • Stu

            That’s the funny thing.
            Most so-called traditionalists are like Kevin.
            Yet here we are discussing a few hundred extreme comments on another blog as if it represents some huge contingent.
            It might be “urine and vinegar” as you call it, but that doesn’t mean you need to drink it or throw it around. If it’s “yellow” then walk and on by and simply let it mellow.

            • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

              I think the Rorate guys need to be shamed, and it needs to be stated forcefully that internet traditionalists on a pro sspx blog don’t speak for the overwhelming majority of traditionalists. Political conservatism never became an electoral winner until the Randians and Birchers were kicked out. (Funny, they got let back in and the GOP started losing elections!) And likewise, it’s pretty darn tough to appeal to people outside of traditionalism when the loudest voices are the Rorate crowd. I know, I’m engaged to one who didn’t know the first thing about the Latin Mass before she met me, and I have to pull double duty not only showing her the beauty of the Latin Mass, but the urine and vinegar wing isn’t synonmous with Traditionalists.

              Yet what needs to happen beyond that is traditionalists who are legit need to be promoted. Like me! No not really. There are many far more intelligent than myself who made these points. Someone points out the head of the Latin Mass Society, who said it better than a lot of us could.

              But I think that’s what people like Mark should do. When he has to link the moonbats, contrast it with something sensible in its place.

              • Stu

                I go to an FSSP parish. I don’t know anyone who is represented by some of the extremist views you find on RC.

                Best way to “shame” them….don’t visit their site and ignore it.

              • contrarian

                Kevin, these are good thoughts.
                But perhaps we need a bit more demarcation here. What constitutes ‘extreme’? Are we critiquing the content from the posts from Rorate? The comment thread? The fact that they link approvingly to this SSPX Argentinian journalist who is a bit hysterical (or that he’s not telling the truth…but do we know this?). The timing of the link? The wisdom of it?

                Is the only worthy ‘traditionalist’ response one that looks entirely like a non-traditionalist response? Cannot one offer a charitable critique of this election while still being loyal and offering our prayers and support? Cannot one point out potential worries? Or is this in itself the mark of the extremist?

                Yes, there are clear cases of jerkitude on the comment thread. But are they really overshadowing and overpowering the rational and charitable voices of critique and concern?

                Anyway, I like your thoughts here, but I worry that I’m not even sure what is being critiqued here anymore.

                Also, and this is just my annoying aside, so take it as that and nothing more: the point isn’t that the Latin Mass is beautiful. Even if it was (per impossible) ugly and banal, the traditionalist would still fight for it and worry if those in charge did not want to make it wide spread.

                Sorry to be a pain, but I worry that we’re unduly picking on too many folks here.

                • contrarian

                  Sorry about my annoying aside. It’s annoying and preachy. Skip it.

                • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

                  They completely jumped the shark when they posted that hysterical SSPX Argentina guy. One of his arguments was that the Pope wasn’t from the Curia, the same Curia of Sodano and Bertone. I have no clue why a traditionalist would suddenly view them the gold standard for papal candidates.

                  As far as a “critque”, as of the moment, there isn’t that much to critque. In both public things I’ve written about it (at my own blog and at the website Catholic Lane) I’ve tried to walk the line that a part of me is worried about how the Latin Mass fares, but at the same time realizing that I shouldn’t let those fears go too big for a variety of reasons. We can say we are concerned, but are adopting a wait and see approach. The Rorate guys aren’t waiting and seeing about anything. They came out guns blazing against the Pope before he even did one formal act as Pope. That they back tracked later with “we just aren’t blind optimists” was a copout and damage control, when they should’ve just admitted that their emotions got the best of them, they had a lack of faith, and posted something they shouldn’t have. Happens to absolutely everyone. I’ve been blogging or writing on the web in one form or another for 12 years now, and I can say with confidence it happens all the time.

                  I’m not a blind optimist. Nor are a lot of traditionalists I know. If we are optimistic about this papacy, it is cautiously optimistic. Just like a lot of other Catholics. We pray for him and hope he can rule effectively. We can have our questions, but we do our best not to jump the gun, and certainly not jump the shark.

                  The kind of mentality they exhibit embarasses traditionalists to those outside the movement. There are a lot of people who see their behavior and are turned off to the Traditionalist movement and the Latin Mass, as well as the great and venerable traditions of spirituality they emphasize. It would be nice to indeed ignore them, but they happen to be quiet loud, and alot of people who don’t understand the distinctions think they represent traditionalists.

                  I guess that’s what I’m criticizing and why I’m criticizing it.

                  • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

                    And the thread has gotten a bit hijacked, and I probably won’t be around much after. If you want to talk further (hey always good to know another traditionalist!) feel free to shoot me an email or visit me on the blog.

                    • contrarian

                      Good stuff Kevin. I agree with much of what you say here.

                  • Kathleen

                    You’re 100 percent right, Kevin. With the Internet, our human frailty becomes very public. It’s the joy-filled Traditionalists who are most compelling to me. But it’s the more obnoxious ones who tend to want to get their views out.

        • contrarian

          Good point, Kevin!

          • http://www.google.com Mark

            I seriously don’t understand how a Christian can justify attacking other Christians on a day marked by joy and unity by saying “Well, THEY’RE nasty!”

            Matthew 5:47, anyone?

            What kind of evangelization for the love and mercy of Christ is that?

        • Scott W.

          Exactly. I officially call on every traditional-liturgy Catholic to reserve Panic Mode for the unlikely scenario in which the Holy Father explicitly nullifies Summorum Pontificum.

          • Dominic

            Hear, hear! No more panic!

        • Dominic

          Couldn’t have said it better myself!

        • Beccolina

          I would like to attend a Latin Mass at least once. Even when I was a preteen, I felt like I wanted to reclaim a piece of my faith that way. I haven’t found one in my diocese yet.

  • Kenneth

    Just to yank some chains, Francis ought to remake the Vatican work culture into a replica of Google or Facebook’s campus, with everyone playing sand volleyball at lunch and wearing Birkenstocks. He could go around on all non-formal days in a beat-up hoodie and shorts, and tool around in a Smart car with a “Coexist” bumper sticker! All while pursuing a theology that makes the fortress tradders look like Hans Kung…..

  • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

    The urine and vinegar wing of Traditionalism? What’s that mean?

    • Scott W.

      It means the particular brand of traditionalist that is impossible to please and for whom it is always winter, never Christmas. As a chanter for a Latin Mass, I’m shocked at many of my fellow traditionalists and feel like the Navy officer who appears at the end of The Lord of the Flies to find an island of children indulging ritualistic murder. I expected better.

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

      It is said one attracts more with honey than with vinegar. Well, the Rorate guys use urine and vinegar, and it works about as well as can be expected. On the day that any of their secular friends come to them wondering what they think of their spiritual head, they are dogging him 5 minutes after he is announced, and already condeming him BEFORE HE MAKES HIS FIRST OFFICIAL ACT. If you have to remind people “Hey, I’m still a faithful Catholic and I pray for the Pope I just spent 30 minutes telling you how he is the worst choice for Pope not named Borgia when his only act was to bow down in prayer!” your doing it wrong.
      I get it. They are worried that this Pope won’t be as friendly to the Latin Mass as Benedict was. You wanna something? So am I. I worried about it before his selection as Pope, and I worry about it after. Yet let’s at least see what he actually does before we begin ginning up the outrageous outrage mill.

      The more likely scenario is he does absolutely nothing to the Latin Mass, whether good or ill. in which case, its on us to bring people to the Latin Mass. Chances are you aren’t going to do that when you have the distinction of being the first catholics on the web to criticize the new pope before his apostolic blessing was even delivered.

      • midwestlady

        It’s when you show up dressed perfectly normally at your first Latin mass in years, but you notice that everyone else is dressed like pilgrims–even the little kids–and they all stare at you.

        • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

          Heh. Stop going to SSPX chapels. :)

          I honestly think most masses in the extraordinary form you go to within the regular confines of the Church lack this kind of attitude you describe. It exists amongst a few people in every parish, but you find it in your ordinary form parishes as well. Try receiving communion on the tongue in most places, or even better, kneeling, and see the reaction you get from the minority.

          Most the ones here in the archdiocese of Detroit that have Latin Masses aren’t like that. The newcomers tend to get mobbed with welcomes and we do our best to integrate them into something which is very confusing for them at first.

          • midwestlady

            It wasn’t an SSPX chapel. We don’t have them around here.

            • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

              Was a bad attempt at humor. I know the kind of people you speak of. You find those who look at the outsider in any parish, extraordinary form or not. It’s a shame, but that’s human nature. I don’t know if you ever still go or not, but its something worth experiencing, even when you account for the frailty of human nature and its tendency to muck it all up for others.

              • midwestlady

                No, this isn’t normal parish I’ve-never-seen-you-before staring. This is something entirely different, sort of like how-did-you-get-in-here staring. I dress very modestly, but I don’t dress like a pilgrim.

  • Harry Piper

    From Rorate-Caeli :

    “The Horror!” (That is the actual title. It’s beyond parody)

    “Of all the unthinkable candidates, Jorge Mario Bergoglio is perhaps the worst. Not because he openly professes doctrines against the faith and morals, but because, judging from his work as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, faith and moral seem to have been irrelevant to him…”

    “This election is incomprehensible: he is not a polyglot, he has no Curial experience, he does not shine for his sanctity, he is loose in doctrine and liturgy, he has not fought against abortion and only very weakly against homosexual “marriage” [approved with practically no opposition from the episcopate], he has no manners to honor the Pontifical Throne. He has never fought for anything else than to remain in positions of power.”

    Their idea of welcoming in the new Pope in a *totally* non-bitter,non- infantile and non- vicious manner. Within hours of his election, his failure to obsess over the Latin Mass as they do leads them to openly encourage hatred and fear of the new Pope.
    Rorate-Caeli – Come on guys. The Medium is the Message.

    • Ivan K

      What is beyond parody is the willingness of people here to do what they can to throw stones at “traddies.” The passage that you cut and pasted from RC was not written by people at RC but was written by an Argentinian who is very familiar with the situation in Buenos Aires. He is not the only Argentinian expressing profound misgivings about the current pope. On the other hand, RC also cited a letter written by the current Pope in support of traditional marriage. It is important to look at all of the evidence and testimonies; to look at everything in the Church, including the papacy and the pope, with open eyes without “happy talk.” Compulsive “happy talk” post-VII what led to one of the worst crises in the history of the Church.

      • midwestlady

        Actually, it wasn’t happy talk, although I hate that too. It was the fact that the current paradigm of Catholicism was breathing it’s last, and no one wanted to admit it. The truth lives on, but post-Reformation prescriptive Catholicism is probably dead and we’d ought to bury it now, before it’s a genuine health hazard.

        • Ivan K

          Anglicanism is the closest thing to “non-prescriptive” Catholicism, and it is long dead; the ashes of its corpse–burned in accordance with ecofriendly vegan hindu ritual–have already been poured into a rainbow-colored urn. Non-prescriptive Catholicism is like alcohol-free votka: what’s the point?

          • midwestlady

            No. It’s not. Anglicanism is also prescriptive. The difference is that the prescriptive quality of Anglicanism is ALL they have because there’s nothing underneath it but an old horny king’s scandal a long time ago.

            Under the appearances of post-Reformation Catholicism is a buried treasure, the mission of the Church which is Christ’s mission, and which has lain hidden but never broken all these years.

      • http://panchoslinks.blogspot.com/ Pancho

        It’s possible some Argintinians have their own axes to grind. Since the announcement Univision has kept reporting on how the new Pope has butted heads with President Kirchner on both economic and social/moral issues and shown plenty of Argentinians happy with his election, so there’s probably a bit more to the story than what’s being shared at the Rorate-Caeli blog (and I know the SPPX has a presence in Argentina so there’s probably a history there most of us are not aware of, and it wouldn’t surprise me if that is influincing some of the comments over at that blog….)

    • Pancho

      “he is not a polyglot….”

      Not a polyglot? Doesn’t he speak 4 languages? Sure, I guess we could send him to Berlitz to learn a few more but come on…

      Note to future “papabile”: Start learning many languages. A year. In second grade.

  • Mark S. (not for Shea)

    Every post I have ever read by Mr. Shea in which he discusses the Catholic Traditionalists, he always points out that he’s talking about the radical nuts in the bunch, not all of them. There’s no need to be hyper-sensitive about this.

    Tolkien probably did more than any other modern Catholic to lead to my conversion, and he was no fan of Vatican II. Which just goes to show you that even the best of us are not perfect.

    I had honestly never heard of our new Pope before tonight. But everything I’ve read of him so far leaves me a thousand kinds of pleased and hopeful.

    • vox borealis

      But if Shea is only pointing out the extreme fringe, why bother pointing them out at all? This traditionalist picks up what seems to be a little “some of my best friends are traditionalists” sense from these sorts of posts.

      • Margaret

        Because even though they are reportedly small in number, even among the Traditionalists, they are loud and tend to dominate discussions. There was horror and angst over at Fr. Z’s blog too, although it appears he has a broad enough readership that they comment box isn’t bending decisively in that direction.

      • midwestlady

        Because Mark Shea has this blog, and he has to dig up stuff to write on a regular basis so he can keep his name out there, you understand……..

      • Mark Shea

        No. It’s a “I like Traddies in real life, but an awful lot of Internet Traddies are jerks” sense. Try being on the receiving end of Traddie hatred and dementia for a decade. You’d be surprised how many and how vocal these people are when you are their target.

        • midwestlady

          It’s the same with Progs. They’re a bunch of bad-mouthed underpants-obsessed people. But most Catholics aren’t in either camp solidly. Honestly, most people aren’t that obsessed with the Church in general. Most of them don’t even show up for Mass on a weekly basis, if you want the real truth.

  • Leslie Fain

    Every Traditionalist I have talked to today is very excited about our new Pope, and pointed out several noteworthy things about him: the fact he shuns limos in favor of public transportation and cooks for himself; that he loves the poor and speaks out against abortion and gay marriage; that he is a Jesuit who is the against the liberalism that has affected that order. I just hate the idea that people reading the RC site may think they speak for the average Traditionalist out there, because they don’t.

  • Charles E Flynn

    The really shocking thing is that no matter what your views, it is a mistake to stop reading this blog.

    • midwestlady

      This is one of the more entertaining ones today, yes.

  • Ivan K

    Read the venomous words of the pharisaical “traddies”:

    “With the news of the election of Pope Francis, the Society of St. Pius X prays to Almighty God that He abundantly bestow on the new Sovereign Pontiff the graces necessary for the exercise of this heavy charge. Strengthened by Divine Providence, may the new pope “confirm his brethren in the Faith”[1], with the authority which St. Pius X proclaimed at the beginning of his pontificate: We do not wish to be, and with the divine assistance never shall be aught before human society but the Minister of God, of whose authority We are the depositary. The interests of God shall be Our interest, and for these We are resolved to spend all Our strength and Our very life.[2] St. Francis of Assisi, whose name the new pontiff has taken, heard the Crucified Savior say to him, “Go, Francis and rebuild my Church.” It is in such a spirit that the bishops, priests, and religious of the Society of St. Pius X assure the Holy Father of their filial desire “to restore all things in Christ, so that Christ may be all and in all”[3] according to their means, for the love of the Holy Catholic and Roman Church.”
    Communiqué from the SSPX’s General House on the occasion of the election of Pope Francis Menzingen, March 13, 2013.

    Excommunicate them!!!

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin Tierney

      When even the SSPX sounds more charitable than they are, they are clearly doing it totally wrong.

      • Chris M

        I noticed that, too. Epic traditionalism fail on the radtrads’ part.

  • Mark S. (not for Shea)

    “But if Shea is only pointing out the extreme fringe, why bother pointing them out at all?”

    Because the lunatic fringe always gives the non-lunatics in the group a bad name. No matter what the group — Traditional Catholics, Republicans, Democrats, Baptists, Muslims, Hindus, or Trekkies. The lunatic fringe seems to be the dominant image. It’s the ol’ few rotten apples spoils the barrel trick, Chief.

  • Fred

    From a more cooler head – Latin Mass Society…
    http://www.lmschairman.org/2013/03/god-bless-pope-francis.html

    • midwestlady

      more cooler? what is that in Latin?

  • Fanofstomoore

    I am disappointed that you choose to contribute to the division by this rant. You do what you criticize from others. I am sorry to see you write this.

  • Artie

    Those “traddies” you seem to mock with such smug delight are the very people most likely to obey a pope be he just or unjust to them. They are also the greatest source of vocations in the Church. Sorry to interrupt your mockfest. You can continue with your put-downs now.

    • midwestlady

      This is actually true, what Artie says, but I’m not sure how to process it. When you go to a trad mass there are a lot of little pilgrims. When you go to a regular mass, there are lots of bald people. Take that for what it’s worth.

    • midwestlady

      Of course there’s no way to guarantee that a trad kid is any more likely than any other cradle Catholic kid to end up Catholic as an adult (fact), there is the sheer fact that if you have more kids, the odds of ending up with some Catholics out of the deal is going to be higher.

  • adele young

    Really all this anger on this wonderful day is beyond my ken ! Just like all this division among Catholics
    claiming Christ as their Savior. I wish I had not come to this site…very disturbed people here. Good bye
    and God bless you with a spirit of charity . BTW…what is a traddie? They don’t sound as bad as half the
    people commenting against them who come across as just plain mean and grouchy. This is a day to rejoice
    for God has answered our prayers for a new holy Pope….and from what I can see our prayers were answered. Be of good cheer and take a pause from all the anger. …and bless one another, instead of cursing the darkness.

  • Bruce

    At the end, no one liked Jesus besides Our Blessed Mother, the Magdalene, and John.

    His Holiness will be what he will be, and the Church will keep on keepin’ on. The Church is not the pope, and we have survived both saintly popes and downright horrible popes.

    Pray for him. Pray for the Church. Pray for all of us.

  • Scott W.

    For an example of a good traditionalist: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/how-i-received-our-new-pope/

    • http://raisinglittlesaints.blogspot.com Erika D.

      exactly! Thanks Father Z for being the voice of traditional Catholics. :)

  • http://raisinglittlesaints.blogspot.com Erika D.

    the only problem is that this kind of post causes more division – oh the irony ;)

  • Will

    Now I am confused. Is the mozzetta different from the fanone?

  • Chris M

    As an Anglican-turned-Catholic, I AM a little concerned with His Holiness’ words as Cardinal regarding Anglicanorum Coetibus.. if the source can be believed. Hopefully, at worst he will just let things with the Ordinariate continue without any negative meddling.. at best he will come around to the Pope Emeritus’ stance on the matter and offer it the support it needs to thrive.


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