A Former Episcopalian Reader Recently Repatriated to the Catholic Church Sez

This is what happens when you don’t have a Magisterium.”

I always feel terrible when I look at the death of the Anglican communion.  I owe Anglicans so much.  Donne, Sayers, Lewis, Williams.  Where would we be without them?

And yet, Good Lord, what a spectacle.  So I hope all the fine Anglicans will come on home to the Catholic communion and escape that embarrassing monkey show presided over by the people who seriously regard demon possession as alternative spirituality and condemns St. Paul for his lack of tolerance in failing to embrace such “diversity.”  When your communion’s theology is that seriously degraded, it’s time to bail.

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  • DOminic

    Why would you care about theology when your humility is that seriously degraded? I though being a >catholic< blogger means more than just blog about catholicism, I guess I was wrong.

    • Ben

      I’m having difficulty finding a lack of humility in this post. Why would you think a blog about Catholicism would be about more than Catholicism? Unless you are referring to “catholic” as in the all denomination universal church. If that is the case then I’m wondering how you think the majority of Episcopal theology is in any way comparable to RC theology. Spong ring a bell? Episcopal theology went off the rails a long time ago, and their dwindling numbers attest to that.

      • Ben

        P.S. – The second link is broken.

    • enness

      Look at it this way. Suppose you have the awkward experience of watching a friend get stupid drunk and do embarrassing things in public, resisting help. It may at times be a little funny, but more than anything it’s painful to watch for his or her sake. You wish you could spare him/her, but given that it’s another adult there is a limit to what you can do about it. Can you not relate to this situation at all?

  • Pavel Chichikov

    Those who do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, true God and true man, is the way, the truth and the life, and that He rose in the flesh from the dead, are not Christians.

    Whatever else they may be, they are not Christians.

  • Pavel Chichikov

    BTW, Bishop Tutu says that if God is homophobic he, the bishop, would rather go to hell.

    That’s candid enough. Anyone want to follow the bishop to hell?

    • Rebecca Fuentes

      If by homophobic, the bishop means, “Doesn’t approve of or find moral and good”, then he’ll be traveling without me.

      • Pavel Chichikov

        When I read that I wondered if the Bishop has any idea of what he seems to be saying. Does he believe in hell and would he really prefer it? Does he believe in his moral equality with God? Does he have any idea of who and what he is in relation to God? Does he think God is just another bloke?

        Where can he possibly be coming from?

        • Rebecca Fuentes

          I would guess from the, “This will make a good soundbite,” perspective. I shudder when I contemplate eternal Hell for anyone–even those names we associate with pure evil.

          • Pavel Chichikov

            Same here.

        • wlinden

          Woe to those who call good evil, and evil good.

          • Pavel Chichikov

            One fears for people who do that.

  • Martial_Artist

    Ben,

    The second link (to Mark’s article in re the sermon of the Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church) is apparently on longer on Patheos.

    However, an Anglican blog’s article on that very sermon, with a link to its text, is available here. By way of full disclosure, the author, an Episcopal lay canon lawyer, is a personal friend of mine.
    Pax et bonum,
    Keith Töpfer

  • MainlineP

    Mr.Shea, as a Non-RC I’m not even close to a regular reader of RC blogs, yours included. However, I’d guess your little exercise in broad-brush reductive analysis and reactionary triumphalism circa 1950 Catholicism is not your best work.

    The Anglican communion is not dead, and it lives a vibrant life in sub-Saharan Africa, among other places. Even the sharp declines of the 1980′s in the C of E has slowed markedly in the most recent survey. Were one to use selective data, I’d assume Brazil, to take one example, would be evangelical Protestant in 2 or 3 generations. But that conclusion would be the result of only one set of numbers, ignoring conflicting evidence. Rio is already mostly non-RC or so I’ve read during the Pope’s visit. But I draw no “death of RCC” conclusion from that.

    What is it about Anglicanism that brings out of the woodwork (and here I mean the other comments, not M.S.) the most hateful, reactionary, uncharitable and triumphalist breed of RC? Methodists and Lutherans never seem to get this type of RC foaming and vein-popping. Newsflash to the haters. The vast swath of worldwide Anglicans couldn’t identify Borg or Spong if a million dollar prize was offered. They certainly haven’t read him. Rather than throw thunderbolts at my communion please deal with the new scandal a week situation in your church first. Between the lavender mafia at the Curia, the Vatican “bank”, the arrested Monsignor, Vatileaks, and a criminally convicted bishop still in office (K.C.,USA), you ought to see the splinters in your own eye first.

    • Melody

      MainlineP makes a lot of good points. The log and the splinter and the eye come to mind, as he mentions. If we as Catholics have to resort to trashing others to make ourselves look good something is wrong.

      • PalaceGuard

        Is it trashing to state the truth? Because the sort truths about the Anglican church as mention above are why I left for Rome.

    • Julie

      MainlineP, I understand you feel the need to kick sand in our faces, because we Catholics indeed are flawed humans with splinters. We are sinners. And the church gives us hope through Jesus. :)

    • catholicchristian

      MainlineP, my wife is a former Anglican, who insists that the saying, “Episcopalians are so open-minded that their brains have fallen out,” is far closer to the truth than your assertion that the Anglican communion is not dead. The problem with your position is that Anglicanism in general has turned in large part from the truths which that communion and the Catholic communion used to hold in common. But this is unsurprising; the Anglican communion rests on no authority but that of a king, and one who rebelled against the Church at that, and which lost apostolic succession by virtue of Cromwell’s interference. That its individual members have until now been as devout as they have been is no doubt the reason that the Anglican communion has “stayed the course” so long; but the winds of a great spiritual storm are blowing, and – despite the sub-Saharan lifeboats – the Anglican ship is being blown, rudderless, onto the rocks.

      • MainlineP

        Has the Book of Common Prayer been abolished? It is orthodox in every way, and filled with some of the most lucid and beautiful prayers in English. It forms much of the Catholic version used in the Ordinariate. Episcopalians are what, 2percent of worldwide Anglicanism. I know the need for traddie RC to paint the Anglican communion with the issues in TEC, but that’s like using the late Maciel and his apologists to discredit the whole RCC. Doesn’t work in either case.
        Oh once again that Tudor king rolled out. Who teaches RC the history of the Reformation? The BCP wasn’t even written or published until Henry was dead and buried. He founded NO church, but declared himself head Catholic in England and Wales. He burned Protestants right to the end and his surviving widow Catherine Parr nearly went to the Tower because of her outspoken Protestantism. Given the endless troubles your church seems to be bedeviled with, you might want to avoid talking about drifting boats.

        • catholicchristian

          Claiming that the Anglican communion is orthodox because the BCP is orthodox is ludicrous. And it’s not just the Episcopal Church in America that has its problems; e.g., the Archbishop of Canterbury has come out in favor of same-sex unions. The problem is that “orthodoxy” in the Anglican communion is a relative, not an absolute, thing, and no one (except the SSPX) argues that the SSPX is orthodox, and even they agree that they are not in communion with Rome.

          Henry VIII did, indeed, declare himself the head of the Church in England. What gave him the authority to do that? And, since Cromwell, what gives the Anglican communion any authority whatsoever?

          And I understand that from your point of view, the Catholic Church seems to be drifting, or even out of control. That’s the typical relativistic view of anyone onboard a drifting ship who insists that it’s on course. The difference, of course, is that we have the assurance of Christ Himself of the guidance of the Holy Spirit, so despite our problems we are assuredly on course. The Anglican communion, lacking apostolic succession? Not so much.

          • MainlineP

            Who said anything about the SSPX? Maciel was Legionaries of Christ founder and molester in chief and bosom buddy of JP II. If you are the self-selected spokesperson for the RCC and this Anglican knows more about it then you it may say something concerning the quality of your credibility. Civil unions already existed in England and Archbishop Welby spoke eloquently in the House of Lords against Cameron’s push for same-gender marriage. You really need to stop dealing in falsehoods. Your opinion is fine for one pushing triumphalist Catholicism, but not your facts.

    • John T. Farrell

      Don’t forgotten the drunken archbishop in San Francisco, the monsignor in Philadelphia found guilty of criminal racketeering, the cardinal in Scotland sexually assaulting seminarians and priests, the list is endless. And those poor boys, thousands and thousands of poor boys, their lives ruined, just so “Father” could have a frisson of cheap pleasure.

      • bob

        Drunken bishop in San Francisco….That would be James Pike, wasn’t it, arrested wandering and incoherent ? With one phone line in his office specifically for his mistress to use? Yeah, I remember that. Bet you don’t.

  • John T. Farrell

    It’s always grieves me to read the rationalizations of the quislings who turn their backs on the Anglicanism that nurtured them. I hope all the fine Romans will journey in virtue to the Anglican communion and escape that embarrassing monkey show presided over by people who seriously regard Mariolotry as a viable spirituality and think Mother Angelica should be Bishop of Rome. As a former Roman, I realized that when an ecclesial community’s is so seriously degraded that it encourages pedophilia, it’s time to bail. Such sadness.

    • Ben

      “Catholics worship Mary and diddle boys!” I’ve never heard this before. It may be true. You have persuaded me.

      • John T. Farrell

        Thank you. Evangelization and apolgetics, as opposed to papist sheep stealing, are vocations. Yes, Catholics are polytheists who worship Mary and the saints. But only their priests seem to be pedophiles or they’re too busy robbing the Vatican Bank. As I said, it’s a monkey show.

        • wlinden

          Ahem. I remember Episcopal Life covering reports of a particularly lurid sex scandal in the Diocese of Long Island. The trained apes running the editorial page, faced with trying to say that something was wrong without jeopardizing their PC credentials by actually criticizing homosexuals, decided that the allegations were of “indiscriminate sex”. (Without explaining how we are supposed to know whether we are being “discriminate” enough.)

          But that was not on the eleven o’clock soundbites, which makes it didn’t happen.

          • John T. Farrell

            Ahem, if the best you can do is dredge up a scandal that occurred in 1996, then your efforts to diminish PEC are pathetic. In any case, there was no cover-up and the priest charged immediately renounced his orders. This is in stark contrast to Romish lies, hypocrisy, and downright racketeering in protecting its own while it blithely destroyed the lives of countless children. And don’t forget to ask Timmy Dolan, Archape of New York, where that 57 million disappeared to.

            • DanSheehan56

              Romish. Archape. Papist. Behold, a charter member of the Know-Nothings found a time machine and has joined the online community.

              • PNP, OP

                Maybe there are no pedophilia scandals in the Episcopal Church b/c naming the sexual molestation of children a scandal would go against Pisky dogma. Why, that’s not inclusive of our Child Loving Community! Help! We’re being Oppressed! Quick! Form a commission!

                Fr. Philip Neri, OP (Former Pisky)

                • John T. Farrell

                  Uh oh, it looks like someone was turned down for ordination in the Episcopal Church and fled to Rome where they’ll take just about anyone.

              • John T. Farrell

                You may wish to read the initial post, written by a traitorous Anglican seduced by the lures and snares of the Whore of Rome, who referred to his former faith as a “monkey show” and suggested his former co-religionists were demon worshippers. Papists play hard ball but don’t like it when the tables are turned.

                • DanSheehan56

                  And, he doubles down with Whore of Rome.

                  Mr. Farrell, another’s wretched language and bigotry do not excuse your own.

                  • John T. Farrell

                    Mr. Sheehan, that argument only works if you had condemned the other side with equal alacrity and vigor.

                    • DanSheehan56

                      Alas, the link is broken. You can rest assured, though, if the other side behaved as loutishly as you have on this thread, they are condemned by me with great alacrity and vigor.

            • wlinden

              So something doesn’t fit your “ONLY Romish priests” assertion, and you go into an “It Doesn’t Count” spin.

              • John T. Farrell

                Not quite. That’s typical Romish black-and-white sophistry where ONE twenty-year old scandal handled transparently is treated as equal to uncounted thousands of boys molested and raped, priests not only protected but encouraged in their criminal depravity by a cynical episcopacy, and unrepentant bishops lying under oath to maintain their false image being holier than thou. It’s an absolute wonder that you people stick with such a sick, corrupt institution that has gotten worse since the Borgias. It makes me nauseous to think of receiving the sacraments from these creeps.

            • wlinden

              It also refutes the repeated assertions that “this would NEVER happen if THEY ordained women” or “if THEY allowed married priests.”

            • Derek

              From your writing, you are no Christian.

        • wlinden

          I hear the chorus from IOLANTHE:

          You break our laws, you are our foe,
          We cry because we hate you so!
          You very wicked trads!
          You homophobes!
          ….. Don’t go!

        • UrbanMom

          If you’re trying to represent how Anglicans are more Christian than Catholics, you’re not doing a very good job of it.

    • Ian Bibby

      You know, I’m not Catholic personally, but I have to give them credit: Unlike the Anglican Communion, they believe in God.

      A Christian would be better off going to a Buddhist temple than an Episcopalian parish. At least the Buddhists ignore the essential doctrines of Christianity rather than attacking them constantly. The Episcopalian church has literally become a synagogue of Satan.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      Your bigotry is so…16th century. Got any good Inquisition stories for us?

    • bob

      I left the Episcopalians to become a layman in the Orthodox Church. I’m glad I grew up 50 years ago in Sunday school before a new generation of teachers in my Seattle parish learned that all that Christianity was untrue. Now Ann Redding, the Muslim episcopalian teaches in the same room where (and I mean precisely where) I learned Bible stories. The local bishop in Seattle has to put it in writing that his clergy *must* say the Creed out loud. In his words, “The Nicene Creed at primary Sunday services is not optional” (Diocese of Olympia clergy manual 2011, P. 23). Can you think of why? Maybe because they don’t believe it? Ever wonder why the Presiding Bishop (a pathetic, confused woman) Katherine Schori wouldn’t let her mother have a funeral in the Orthodox Church, where she had converted in the 1970′s? I know why she converted too, she was disgusted by the decay of Christian faith and teaching in her church. Embarassing monkey show, Roman Catholicism? I’d be in communion with monkeys before Schori, Spong, Redding, Pike and the entire Anglican episcopate. Have they decided this week what can get married to what? You have reason to be upset, but embarassment is an upsetting feeling. If you believe something you should find your way out. It’s a cinch they won’t throw you out. It is completely impossible to think of any thing you could believe or not believe that would get Anglicans to exclude you. Try.

  • Reed

    Anglican Orders are Null and Invalid.


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