Rod Dreher and Joe Carter Fight the Good Fight

against the sin and scandal of “prolife” anti-Catholic zealots for torture.

Well done!

Well done also to Joe Carter for giving this vile filth no quarter. There is nothing left to discuss or negotiate. “Prolife” Christians who cheer for torture and, worse, cheer for sacrilegiously likening it to baptize have only one option: repent and seek forgiveness. Those who make excuses for it or refuse to repent ought to be as radioactive as Catholics for a Free Choice.

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  • Satori

    I feel the same way about “pro-lifers” that don’t support government benefits for poverty stricken mothers. If your goal is to stop abortions you have to make it bearing the child a feasible choice for poor women, and in many cases conservative policies do the opposite. Without a social safety net a single woman who gets pregnant faces financial ruin if she has a child, and that undoubtedly drives women in many states to abortion. These “Christian conservatives” are not serious and should not be treated as if they are.

    • wineinthewater

      I would give them a pass if they actually embodied the charity so many taut as the ideal compared to governmental assistance.

      I think we have to keep in mind that the only reason that we need governmental assistance for poverty-stricken mothers is because we, as a society, are a miserly and hard-hearted lot. Charity is preferable, but the poor should not suffer because the “haves” do not generally give willingly.

      • Heather

        Amen.

  • David

    Mark: Why do you keep dragging the pro-life movement into this discussion? I read both articles you linked and neither mentions the pro-life movement or abortion. I’m involved with in the pro-life community in my area and serve on the board of a CPC. I’ve never heard anyone defend torture or claim that it is part of the pro-life platform. I know you’re trying to shame torture defenders with their rank hypocrisy, but I think you’re unfairly feeding the false notion that the pro-life movement, to have a right to defend the unborn, must first solve all of the world’s problems and ensure the ideological purity of its allies. Satori’s comment shows how this plays out in the public discussion (although I can’t tell if the comment is not just sarcasm). The pro-life movement is the only one I’m familiar with that is expected to solve all of the world’s problems (i.e. poverty, hunger, child abuse) before some people will acknowledge it.

    • chezami

      Because, as research has consistently shown, “prolife” conservative Catholics and Evangelical are the single most enthusiastically pro-torture demographic in the United States.. It is a sin and a scandal and because of that gross hypocrisy God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles. Palin’s blasphemy of the sacrament of baptism is simply a peculiarly artistic demonstration of the filthy obscenity of supposedly “prolife” Christians perverting the church’s teaching when it doesn’t happen to fit their devotion to conservative shibboleths.

      • Cypressclimber

        While I’ve been critical of how Mr. Shea has approached some of these “what’s wrong with conservatives” threads, I think there’s a really, really good reason to be glad he’s poking the prolife angle here…

        Because politicians love to wear a label that gets them maximum benefit at minimum cost. They love being able to brag about their credentials, and use those credentials to shut down any criticism.

        So for example: Gov. Palin — about whom there are many good things to say, let us stipulate — has always been given credit for being “pro life.” And you can bet your bank account she covets that label.

        This behavior calls that into question. And Mr. Shea is absolutely right to point it out.

        Or, are you content to have your prolife leaders and opinion-shapers and standard-bearers be shams? Show of hands of all those who are tired of this game where they are with us only for the photo ops?

  • Cypressclimber

    While you may have seen it — via Deacon Kandra, also at Patheos — but Gov. Palin has responded to those criticising her remarks. She has doubled down in defense of…well, doing anything she can to get back at evil terrorists. Those who didn’t like her remarks are “wusses” and “hypocrites.”

    • chezami

      The enormous popularity of this person’s “thought” is a standing indictment of the Thing that Used to be Conservatism. She could sacrifice a live chicken on TV and call on Mars for salvation and her fans would roar with approval.

      • Cypressclimber

        Well…you have a point, pithily made as usual.

        That said, notice what is happening at NRO. That I noticed, two articles. One that talks of her barbarism, another that somewhat defensively tries to rally the troops for waterboarding. I suspect the conscience of the NR editorial board is mighty uneasy on the waterboarding question.

        Meanwhile, yes, the comments are a true disgrace. That said, from what I know of the folks at NR (I actually did know some of those folks once, years ago), they can’t be happy about those comments, and what they say about their site. Why would they be?

        So…it’s not a pretty picture, but not an even one. It’s not all bad.
        And, to be fair; what do you suppose would have been the case if this were, say, 1984 instead of 2014? We didn’t have blogs and comments sections, but there were plenty of bad ideas around, and sometimes people go for them out of expediency and reactivity. You really think this is a new problem for conservatives?

  • Elmwood

    Rod writes and excellent article here–wish he wasn’t an ex-disgruntled-catholic. If this is conservatism, count me in, but I’ll leave Fox news and the GOP behind, and some of Dreher’s anti-catholicism.

  • honzik

    Joe Carter’s argument is spot on: “The truly Christian position is to never forget that evil comes not just from the actions of “terrorists” or “enemies” but from the heart of fallen, sacred yet degraded, human beings. If we are to preserve our own humanity we must not forget that our enemy differs from us in degree, not in kind.”

    On top of this is Thomas More’s argument in “A Man For All Seasons” – whither could we turn once the law is rendered impotent?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUqytjlHNIM

  • Silverback

    Thanks to you and Rod and Joe Carter–Joe Carter has been highlighting the torture issue for years (as long as you have)


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