For Trayvon Martin and Jesus wore a hoodie

jesus wore a hoodie treyvon martin cartoon by nakedpastor david hayward

CLICKING ON THE IMAGE TAKES YOU TO MY GALLERY

I drew this cartoon in March of 2012 after Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

It is no surprise to me that George Zimmerman was acquitted of second-degree murder. He was also acquitted of manslaughter. He shot and killed an unarmed black teenager wearing a hoodie on a snack run. Oh… sorry… he was armed with Skittles.

Did you know that in Florida you can kill someone you believe is a threat to you even if you can retreat from the danger? Did you know that if there are no witnesses then the court must lean in favor of the killer? Did you know that they are required to believe that if Zimmerman felt threatened by Martin, and even though he could have left the scene, he still had the right to kill him?

But I could tell from the beginning of the whole thing, and then seeing the court proceedings, that justice for Treyvon didn’t stand a chance. I could see it coming. I’m not the only one.

What? Zimmerman just walks out of the courtroom a free man with no consequences?

I’m not a cop. I’m not a judge or lawyer. I’m not a legal analyst or a journalist. I’ll admit it. I’m just telling you what I see and how I feel about it: IT’S NOT FAIR.

About David Hayward

David Hayward runs the blog nakedpastor as a graffiti artist on the walls of religion where he critiques religion… specifically Christianity and the church. He also runs the online community The Lasting Supper where people can help themselves discover, explore and live in spiritual freedom.

  • Pat68

    Thanks, David.

  • Chester McMackin

    Much has been said , and will so continue, that racial overtones are included in the “public ” acquittal I It should be noted, however, that there was a variety of ‘races” on the jury, and they cannot be blamed for racism.

    The real tragedy of all this is that TREVOR was killed, and all all people, directly and indirectly affected by such, will have lifelong recall.

    My observation of “equality ” is that some are more equal than others.

    This imbalance, as covered by your comment of NOT FAIR, has been; Is; and always shall be the state of humanity,as patterned by civilization thus far.

    People equality is a myth.

    Wish I had an earthly answer .

  • HeidiTurner

    You know, the only people I hear saying this kind of thing are white guys. This WAS about racism – the Koch Brothers sent out lawyers to communities all over the south putting this law onto the books of unsuspecting communities. If they can’t incarcerate them, or send them out to die at war they have to kill them “in defense” of their precious so called freedom.

  • HeidiTurner

    Thank you David.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    I’m sure there is a big party going on right now at Fox News.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    I was outraged and angry when this young man was first killed, and felt that same outrage and anger come boiling to the surface when I heard the killer was acquitted. This was a complete injustice, and one that simply opened the door for more murders… “I was frighted for my life! He was armed with a Diet Coke and wearing his hat on backwards!”… “He was going to kill me. He was wielding a Snickers bar and didn’t have shoes on!”

    I will admit, I don’t like the racism argument… the killer was Hispanic. It wasn’t some rich white guy killing a poor black kid. The murderer was set free because of a law intended to protect people when they feel endangered – and the fact that this law requires a substantial burden of proof on the prosecution. They must be able to prove without a doubt that the killer did NOT feel threatened… something the prosecution could not do, and probably would never be able to do. How do you prove what someone was or was not feeling in a moment?

  • Carol

    I am convinced that the just [and legal-not always the same thing] verdict should have been manslaughter. I have no doubt that if the neighborhood resident had been black and the hoodie-wearing teen had been white, the verdict would have been manslaughter.

    However, perhaps, in spite of my outrage and sorrow, this blog post is perhaps the appropriate *Christian* response, given the biblical Revelation that we are called to a ministry of reconciliation rather than a ministry of condemnation:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mariadixonhall/2013/07/florida-juice-thoughts-before-the-trayvon-verdict/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Pan%20Patheos%207.13.13%20(1)&utm_content=&spMailingID=42043092&spUserID=NDM0NTYzNDUyMDIS1&spJobID=194565800&spReportId=MTk0NTY1ODAwS0

  • Gary

    This was a tragic situation in all respects. Zimmerman was a fool and frankly I would have had no problem with a charge of manslaughter since he was told by the 911 operator to leave the situation alone. However David…I am disappointed in you your characterization of the law in Florida. I believe the law on the books is correct and am glad we have a similar version here in Indiana. A misapplication of a good law does not then make the law itself at fault. The moment he provoked the encounter with Treyvon he should no longer have had the protection of the law as written since it is about the right to protect yourself from an attacker, not to give you the right to provoke an encounter and then when you are losing to STILL have the right to use lethal force. Big difference.

  • Pat68

    Thanks also, David, for correcting the spelling of Trayvon’s name.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Yes! They SHOULD have a trial where all the facts could come out and let a jury decide the outcome!

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    It is a frightening situation where person A can kill person B and not be held accountable because of a law that says that person A can kill person B if person A claims that he felt threatened by person B and the burden of proof is to prove that person A did not feel threatened by person B.

    Is it now open season for hunting? Basically, anybody can kill anybody else as long as you are alone when you do it (and have a slick lawyer).

  • http://www.manmover.com/ John Meyer

    Uh, has anyone on this thread or in this nation for that matter stopped to think that not one of us have a clue as to what went on that day? Humans just love to come to assumptions about everything. The facts are in as much as they have them and Zimmerman was acquitted. You don’t know how intense the situation was and neither do I. Maybe Zimmerman was screaming to God in his mind for help, just the same as Trayvon for the few moments he was alive after he was shot. Let me ask you all a question…If you lived in Florida and someone broke into your home and started attacking you or your children, would you stand there and say “OMG! I am soooooo glad there is no such thing as a stand your ground law anymore!” Surely, if you believe in God fully and trust Him fully, then of course you may just throw your hands in the air say “Do whatever pal, I’m in His hands”. However, if you are scared and freaked out in the moment, you don’t know what you would do…..let’s get transparent about it eh????

  • Kervo

    While the situation was different, I recently saw a staged video — scene one a young white man cutting through the chain holding a bike to a sign post, no one tried to stop him or call the police; scene two a young black man cutting through the chain, within minutes someone had confronted him while another called the police; scene three a young white woman is cutting the chain, people helped her do it. In ALL THREE cases, the person cutting the chain openly admitted that the bike was NOT theirs. In ALL THREE cases, people who ignored, stopped or helped were of many different races. White and non-white folks were interviewed after all three scenes. ALL of them, regardless of race, said they thought the white man knew what he was doing and wouldn’t be stealing. ALL of them, regardless of race, said they assumed the black man was stealing the bike. Racism can be present among ALL people. You don’t have to be white to be racist.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Ya I know Gary. Like I said, I’m not a lawyer nor pretend to be. I don’t understand the law. But as an adult male with a fair bit of education, there is something grossly unfair about this whole thing, and I am suspicious about that law. I’m just an ignoramus when it comes to this stuff. This is a ventilation of my frustration and anger.

  • klhayes

    Guess if I ever have a son, I will have to forbid him from getting candy at the corner drugstore after dark :(

  • Brandi Eissinger

    Good argument… except that Trayvon Martin did not break into this man’s house. Zimmerman called the police because he was suspicious of a teen out that late – this was a good, reasonable thing to do. He was then told by dispatch to not get involved. Again, this is a reasonable thing to be told. He then decided to ignore what he was told to do, and ended up provoking a situation which ended with him killing an unarmed teenager.

    The Stand Your Ground law should not protect in this situation.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    and hoodies.

  • http://www.braintarts.wordpress.com/ MichaelL65

    I will correct one thing: you said he called the cops because he was suspicious of a teen out that late. You left out one little detail. He was a BLACK teen. If he had been white, this would have never happened.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    Zimmerman was a Latino with light-skinned privilege. Who killed an unarmed black seventeen-year-old who had no way to defend himself and posed exactly zero threat. AND HE GOT AWAY WITH IT. Because of his light-skinned privilege.

    This IS about race. To pretend it isn’t? SMH.

  • Patty

    No, Trayvon Martin’s death was not fair, and it never will be fair. He went out to get Skittles and ended up dead on the grass in front of his home. There is nothing fair about that. The one who had every right to stand his ground was Trayvon Martin, but he was tried and convicted by the defense team. Sadly, there will be more Zimmermans and more Trayvons.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    There is an earthly answer. White/light-skinned supremacy and privilege.

  • klhayes

    It might not be about Zimmerman’s race at all. . .

  • Daniel

    I’m curious. How exactly does one make the conclusion of “guilty” or “not guilty” for something they weren’t there to see?

    And if you want to reverse the roles, there was more a lot more evidence that said OJ murdered two white people, and he didn’t get manslaughter charges.

    Forgive me if I come off as if I’m scolding you. I just think it’s pointless to automatically assume this guy is guilty when the only other person who was there to see what happened, died (unfortunately). It’s also just as ridiculous to assume that he is not guilty.

    That’s the whole point of a trial. They get numerous people together to weigh the evidence at hand, discuss it, and decide what seems the most probable.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    You don’t know that for sure. Granted yes, Zimmerman definitely appeared to be racist against blacks… but being he was HISPANIC, he may very well have been racist against whites as well. You can’t make generalizations without any proof.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    personally, I don’t think it has anything to do with either of their race.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    Light-skinned privilege? omg just give it up. It was a horrible crime and he got away with it BECAUSE the law allowed it. Because the prosecution couldn’t prove that Zimmerman was not frightened for his life. The Jury was all sorts of races. Why do we have to turn everything into a race war? It was a crime on a human life. THAT is what is important.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    I still don’t understand how hoodies got involved. My family is as white as they come, and we all live in hoodies 9 months out of the year

  • Chester McMackin

    KERVO :We are each in agreement with the last sentence of your comments.

    This is also covered in my statement that : “People equality is a myth”. PEOPLE is the key word. Therefore , a conclusion that such is the significant form of “racism” practice all around us is clearly evident. Regarding anyone as “not equal” is racism, in my opinion, ..e.g. “I’m more equal than you are ” .

    I appreciate your comments.

  • Chester McMackin

    HEIDI : Your comments are appreciated and my only intent in
    response is to be a debate only.

    Please read my response to KERVO.

    Little has been said about the long , arduous effort by the six jury members who came to their decision from the evidence presented to them, in accordance with the justice procedure.

    It is the best system we have at the moment, and their verdict is the one which we have to accept. They were appointed for the purpose they completed,and there is no indication of wrongdoing on their part.

    As I earlier indicated, the sad part is the death of young Mr. Martin.

  • Chester McMackin

    BUT…is THAT the correct answer ?

  • Pat68

    Some people have come to associate hoodies with suspicious behavior. Probably because some criminals do try to conceal their identity by using them, but as you said of your own family, you live in them 9 months out of the year. It’s like so many other things–if it has a bad association, people tend to stereotype those they see doing/wearing it, whether they’re of that ilk or not. For example, not all young men who wear their pants low are gang-bangers, but some people view them that way.

  • Kervo

    Chester: I agree with the last statement in your first post above … wish I had an earthly answer.

    At the moment, I’m looking to my non-white friends for help — how can I make a difference. One recommended the book “The New Jim Crow”. I’ll be reading it soon …

    Thanks for your kind clarification of your first statement. I missed some of what you had said.

    Peace, to you.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Dave, It seems to me you’ve done the very thing you rail against “fundies” doing. Following blindly an institution that has an agenda: Media. Being liberal, you probably didn’t notice. I agree with this quote by Mathew Sheffield who put it better than I could:

    “In the end, it is regrettable that Trayvon Martin died that fateful night. What is also regrettable is how America’s elite news media willingly went along with a smear campaign designed by racist frauds like Al Sharpton who were looking to boost their own fortunes at the expense of an innocent man. George Zimmerman is not a perfect man. But he did not deserve to become a real-life version of Emmanuel Goldstein.”
    The police had it correct. Right from the beginning.

  • klhayes

    Many believe that him wearing a hoodie got him in trouble…again being black and wearing a hoodie.

  • klhayes

    You need to understand the history of this country, who stop and frisk policies target and who gets followed in stores.

  • Gary

    One thing I do know. the neighborhood where this took place had had a big crime spree going on when this incident took place. They had a neighborhood watch just for this reason. I am not saying I think Zimmerman should have asked him what he was doing there…but I am not sure he shouldn’t have either. The jury evaluated all the evidence and made the decision they thought was right. I do not like to see people always claim these things are about race and this is my problem with this. And Zimmerman was more than threatened, he was in the process of being beaten. May not have had an eye witness, but they did have the voices on the phone recording to listen too. There is a lot of judgment being thrown against Zimmerman as if that kind if judgment in ignorance is acceptable since we are playing the race card. That is what I don’t like. It was a tragedy, the jury made the best decision they could based on the evidence they had. We don’t need to make it worse by fueling the claims of racism.

  • Gary

    The stand your ground law actually had nothing to do with this as that was not what they used in the defense. That issue was put to bed long before this came to trial. This continued focus on a defense that was not even part of the trial is just more evidence of everyone’s rush to judgment in complete ignorance of the facts of the situation.

  • Gary

    Bullshit. I hate people constantly playing the race card,. This type of racial judgment is just as much racism. In fact…there was a white child in the past couple of weeks who was assaulted by two black older teens by pouring gasoline on him and setting him on fire on his very own porch and he suffered severe burns. The black kids were taunting him and telling him he deserved it because he was a white boy. This was a clear hate crime and totally racially motivated. Where is the media outrage over this incident? It was reported once and forgotten. Racism works both ways, except in the minds of racists and our mainstream media.

  • Gary

    I rescind this statement. I don’t know enough to call Zimmerman a fool. The jury felt clearly that Zimmerman was attacked and was being beaten by Treyvon. It was a tragedy. NONE of us were sitting on the jury reviewing all of the evidence. And NEITHER of the two individuals were being accurately portrayed in the media.

  • Gary

    And MichaelL65 YOU also “left out one little detail”. Zimmerman reported he was black AFTER he was asked for a description of him…not before.

  • Gary

    No he was not set free on the stand your ground law…that was not used in the defense.

  • Gary

    This is a very distasteful comment.

  • Keane Sanders

    Wait, you mean members of a severely oppressed group lashed out at a member of the oppressing group?

    How terrible.
    Of course, I’m sure there was more to it than that and the crime was much more personal–but you didn’t see fit to tell us that.
    You only saw fit to justify your own racist attitudes.

  • Keane Sanders

    If you’re going to claim that he’s primarily hispanic (he’s biracial technically), you’re going to have to explain why he presents as white, supports the racist system like a white man, and benefits from white privilege like a white man.

    Further, you’ll have to explain why any “racist” (honey, you mean prejudiced–the ruling class can’t be meaningfully discriminated against) attitudes towards whites he may have had are worth bringing into a situation where it’s the anti-black attitudes that matter.

  • Keane Sanders

    http://thepoliticalfreakshow.us/post/54972680080/race-reversal-a-hypothetical-scenario-of-what

    This lovely article also links to accounts of witnesses you seem to think don’t exist.

  • Keane Sanders

    Don’t forget the bread-and-butter of anti-Black narratives–the ones that tell us that every Black male aged 12 and up are dangerous, and always the aggressors, that tell us that we must fear violence from the black community despite the fact the violence flows the other direction.

  • http://carolesmithturner.com/ CaroleTurner

    I am a white mother of two black boys, I blogged my thoughts on all this today, http://www.carolesmithturner.com/2013/07/safe-to-wwb.html

  • Brandi Eissinger

    “honey” you can just shut up. Don’t demean me or insult me. I don’t have
    to explain anything to you… as YOU are obviously quite racist and
    prejudiced.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    Ah ok, thanks for the clarification Gary. I honestly didn’t do much research… just went by the complaining going on in social media outlets. I know… I shouldn’t do this. But quite frankly, the whole story just gets me too angry… I would have avoided this all together as well, except that I just can never ignore David’s drawings/blog posts.

  • http://www.braintarts.wordpress.com/ MichaelL65

    That has nothing to do with this case.

  • http://www.braintarts.wordpress.com/ MichaelL65

    So what? The kid was black. Zimmerman killed him because he was black.

  • http://www.braintarts.wordpress.com/ MichaelL65

    Proof? He shot an unarmed black kid walking home armed with Skittles.

  • http://www.braintarts.wordpress.com/ MichaelL65

    Didn’t do much research. Figures. The STFU if you have no clue what you are talking about.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    He shot an unarmed KID.

  • Camino1

    Trayvon stood his ground but the system ignored him.

  • Camino1

    Things would have been radically different.

  • Camino1

    Trayvon stood his ground. The law doesn’t work for him.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    White supremacy and privilege DO exist. I have white privilege. You probably have white privilege, given your comment. (A POC would never say something like that.)

    George Zimmerman is part-Latino with light-skinned privilege and he got away with murdering a black teenager who posed no real threat to him.

    On the other hand, a black Florida woman (Marissa Alexander) got sentenced to 20 years because she fired a gunshot in the air to defend herself against her abusive husband.

    Elsewhere, a transgender black woman (CeCe McDonald) is in jail because she tried to defend herself against cissexist white supremacists. Even worse: she has been misgendered.

    It IS about race. Wake up.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    Bullshit.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    WRONG. Racism does not work both ways. White people don’t face institutional prejudice and discrimination because of their skin colour. White people are not subject to racial profiling, to stop-and-frisk policies.

    Racism = Institutional prejudice + power + privilege. People of colour in this country don’t have power, despite the fact our president is black. People of colour in this country don’t have privilege.

    Check your own privilege, Gary.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to be racist toward a white person.

    Are you white, Brandi? If so, congratulations, you’re privileged! Which means you benefit from this racist society whether you want to or not.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    Racism according to the dictionary: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

    So yup, it IS possible to be racist against a white person. I have known many people of many different races who believe their race is superior to others, or that other races are inferior to theirs.

  • Brandi Eissinger

    Good to know you’re able to have an intellectual debate.

  • Camino1

    I don’t believe you for a second. You may have met someone, but not many.

    African Americans largely want equality. America is built on white supremacy. It is rare to find someone who wants black supremacy.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    That’t the dictionary definition… written hundreds of years ago by white people.

    I’m talking about the sociological definition.

    White people don’t have to worry about racial profiling. White people don’t have to worry about being murdered or hunted down because of their skin colour. White people benefit from the judicial system. White people do not experience institutionalized prejudice. White people have all the power. White people have all the privilege. The world we live in rewards us for being white.

    You can be prejudiced toward white people. You cannot be racist toward them.

  • Carol

    There is no such thing as “pure” objectivity. “Facts” have no meaning unless they have been interpreted and all interpretations, while not equally valid, are subjective.

    One decides on the basis of evidence and the interpretive testimony of witnesses.

    OJ was not only black, he was a celebrity who could afford to hire the “best and brightest” defense team. His experience is not applicable in this case.

    The second degree murder charge was an over-reach, but the manslaughter charge was valid. When Zimmerman chose to continue to stalk Travon Martin after being told that he “didn’t need to do that” by the police, he became the aggressor and Travon had the right to defend himself under the “stand your ground” law.

    Zimmerman’s lawyers were able to turn the victim into the aggressor in the minds of the jury and the prosecutors did not pick up on that strategy.

    If Travon Martin had been the survivor, he might have had an equally clever defense team if his case had become a test case for racial profiling. In most cases, the quality of the legal defense team, not justice, determines the outcome of the verdict.

    Perhaps not too many participating on this blog remember the incident of Ted Kennedy on Chappaquidic (sp?) Island. I believe If it had been John Q. Public instead of Ted Kennedy involved in that tragedy there would have been manslaughter charges.

    We have a legal system, but we do not have a justice system.

  • Mark

    David, setting aside the fact that none of us will ever know exactly what went on the day Treyvon Martin was killed, there are two points I must take issue with. If the jury felt that Zimmerman acted within the law, regardless of what we may think about the law, he deserved to be acquitted. Second, he may have been acquitted, but he certainly did NOT “just walk out of the courtroom a free man with no consequences.” A nationally reported trial of that magnitude takes a toll on a person in many ways, regardless of the verdict. Try walking in his shoes through that experience and see if you still feel there were no consequences.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    I don’t rail against fundies, but against what I think is stupid, unjust and dangerous. For example, when someone says something like “The police had it correct. Right from the beginning.” When everyone knows they lied in Zimmerman’s favor and this was even shown in court.

  • Mark

    While I do suspect that Martin’s race played a factor in this, It seems very condescending and stereotypical to me for people to argue that all people of other races, being systematically oppressed by all whites, and all just wanting a fair shake in life, can therefore not possibly be racist.

  • Mark

    She apologized. You don’t need to be rude.

  • Gary

    So the white child set on fire by black kids solely because he was white is not an example of racism going both ways? I hate the stop and frisk policies as well Shelly…but you comment about my “own privilege” is racist itself.

  • Gary

    That is a racist comment.

  • Gary

    Who also happened to be beating him in a neighborhood where there had been a crime wave going on making the residents feel they needed a neighborhood watch system in the first place. The situation was tragic all around. But those who claim it is racism when there is no evidence to suggest it was racially motivated are themselves promoting racism.

  • Gary

    Tell that to the kid set on fire. This statement makes absolutely no sense. I usually like what you contribute Shelly…but to say it is “IMPOSSIBLE to be racist toward a white person is just plain ignorant of the facts.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teenagers-poured-gasoline-boy-walking-home-school-set-fire-cops-article-1.1033062

  • Gary
  • Gary

    Did he? you know this for sure? Because the jury decided that when Zimmeman (The neighborhood watch captain in a neighborhood in a crime spree) asked him what he was doing (without assaulting him) Treyvon attacked Zimmerman and was in the process of beating him. And there was a black woman on the jury who also voted to acquit.

    And the stand your ground law was not part of the case. It was a case of simple self defense.

  • Gary

    Did you even ATTEMPT to educate yourself about the facts f the case? You are speaking pure bullshit!!!

  • Gary

    Shelly…YOU are a racist!!

  • Keane Sanders

    Right, acknowledging that racism exists and affects and informs people’s narratives and experiences is totes prejudiced. Acknowledging the complicated nature of race and privilige–given its naturally non-binary nature, is totes super prejudiced and I’m totally sorry.

  • Gary

    He did not shoot Treyvon because he “felt” threatened. He shot him because he was in the process of being beaten. And the stand your ground law was not invoked or used in this case.

    Come on people wake up…it is not like he just walked up to him and shot him in spite of the constant portrayal as such.

  • Gary

    Of course it exists. But stating that EVERY crime between people of different races is racially motivated is both incredibly naive and itself racist.

  • Gary
  • http://thethreews.wordpress.com/ Ken Leonard

    Have you ever noticed that the people who insist that “racism works both ways” only seem to care about it when they think it’s against the privileged group?

  • http://thethreews.wordpress.com/ Ken Leonard

    “Following blindly an institution that has an agenda”

    Example:

    “The police had it correct. Right from the beginning.”

  • Gary

    If this is a statement about me and my views it is ignorant in the extreme and you can simply fuck off.

  • Dennis Irwin

    The police lied? And it was shown in court? What did they lie about?

    I don know of one lie, though. NBC news edited the Zimmerman 911 call to make it sound like he was racist. They got busted, and are now being sued. Unfortunately things like this have already influenced people like you I’m afraid. As we speak it’s like the media is begging for riots, and it’s disgusting. I don’t know how much of the trial you watched (of course I live within an hour of Sanford) but I saw enough to know that the jury came to a fair decision.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Blindly….like the 6 ladies who agree with me.

  • Gary

    Love it. I call for rational response to this tragedy and get three down votes on my comment. Those who are promoting racism and ranting hysterically are being applauded for their comments. No wonder we can’t put racism behind us in this country. People seem determined to hang on to it for as long as possible.

  • Gary

    Simple statistics state that the black community is far more violent per capita. This is not a prejudiced statement…it is a simple fact. There may be many reasons contributing to this fact, including minority oppression, but to stick your head in the sand and simply deny it is foolish.

  • Keane Sanders

    Okay. Give me your source.

  • Keane Sanders

    Interestingly that very comment shows how little you know about the marginalization of the black community–after all, isn’t it weird that lower-income people tend to commit more crimes? Isn’t also weird that the black community tends to be pushed into the lower classes historically and currently by our social-political-economic system. Weird.

    If you bothered learning about the group, you might already know that “street” culture–which is a part, though not the whole, of what you’re referring to–is a product of racism (and there’s quite a bit written about it by sociologists and thinkers from the Black community if you even bothered looking), and that it would be weird if such an oppressed and criminalized group *didn’t* end up being disproportionately represented in our prisons.

    Shit man, maybe learn things instead of consciously deciding to regurgitate racism.

  • Gary
  • Dennis Irwin

    The police lied about what?

    I do know of one lie, though. NBC news edited the Zimmerman 911 call to make it sound like he was racist. They got busted, and are now being sued. Unfortunately things like this have already influenced people like you I’m afraid. As we speak it’s like the media is begging for riots, and it’s disgusting. I don’t know how much of the trial you watched (of course I live within an hour of Sanford) but I saw enough to know that the jury came to a fair decision.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Blindly….like the 6 ladies who agree with me.

  • Gary

    And to say he “got away with murder” is to place your knowledge of the facts ABOVE the jurors (one of whom was also black) who felt clearly that Zimmerman was being assaulted and had a right to defend himself. Your comments on this have been profoundly irrational and biased.

  • Gary

    Fuck you.

    I am most certainly NOT regurgitating racism. I am quoting statistics. And I get some of what you are saying…but the analysis you quote is neither conclusive nor unchallenged. It is not so simple as you paint it to be and I am calling for balance in our judgment. YOU on the other hand are only promoting continued racism.

    Walter Williams had a great commentary on just the kind of thing I am talking about. Oh and before you call him simply another racist…He is BLACK.

    http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2012/05/23/should_black_people_tolerate_this/page/full

  • Keane Sanders

    He can still be racist, and perpetuate racist structures–and his analysis..doesn’t seem to acknowledge any work done in the study of race relations. Which is pretty weird.

    It seems that you’re less trying to come to a more nuanced judgement and more trying to erase the entire corpus of work done on the study of race and race relations.
    You might want to check that.

    Also, you are now the 26th person to use the “acknowledging racism is racist” defense in the past day.
    It wasn’t clever the first time, and it isn’t terribly clever now.

  • Gary

    “Also, you are now the 26th person to use the “acknowledging racism is racist” defense in the past day. It wasn’t clever the first time, and it isn’t terribly clever now.”

    WRONG. I agree wholeheartedly that “acknowledging” racism is not itself racist. In fact there is much racism still present in this country that flows both ways. That is not what we are dealing with here. What is racist is claiming every physical assault between people of different races is racially motivated. And your characterization of what we have been saying is a very self serving biased portrayal of my and other’s argument. It is also false. And it is most certainly NOT “terribly clever”.

    By the way…the DOJ is now pushing for a further probe into racism even though the FBI interviews showed conclusively that they were unable to find any bias or prejudice in the handling of this case. That’s right…the jury and the FBI found no racism, yet our government is so vested in keeping the racism alive they won’t accept it and want to not stop until they find some. (Or manufacture some)

    I’ll tell you what is “pretty weird”. That is that the VAST majority of violent crime committed against blacks is black on black crime and yet the only thing our media cares about is the much lesser problem of white on black crime whether whether it be racially motivated or not.

  • Gary

    And of course the fact that you all keep conveniently ignoring is that (according to the jury who reviewed all the evidence) the actual assault was against Zimmerman who then legally defended himself.

  • Dennis Irwin

    “White people don’t face institutional prejudice and discrimination because of their skin colour.

    Nobody does.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    you’re not serious, dennis. please tell me you don’t really believe that.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Institutional prejudice? In America today? No. Skin color has no bearing on who and what you want to be in this day and age. Our Pres. is black. My Senator is Cuban. Condi Rice? Nikki Haley? Bobby Jindal? Colin Powell? Herman Cain? Ted Cruz, Jr., Clarence Thomas & so on. Shoot, the guy that owns the concrete company I do business with. Stop it.

    Now if she had said there is prejudice against certain cultures? Maybe that would have been more accurate.

    But skin color? Not here. Maybe it’s different up there in Bob & Doug country.

  • Dennis Irwin

    BTW….We’re talking “institutional” prejudice. Individual prejudice will always be everywhere. When I traveled to South America I noticed that America does not have the market cornered when it comes to prejudice. The different Latino folks are prejudice against each other! Especially against Mexico.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    GEEZ

  • Dennis Irwin

    Not much of an exchange of ideas, Dave.

  • Camino1

    I was not commenting on Zimmerman–just Trayvon. He stood his ground–if the 911 call means anything–and now Trayvon has been found guilty.

    The Zimmerman defense made sure of that.

  • Dennis Irwin

    “Did you know that they are required to believe that if Zimmerman felt threatened by Martin, and even though he could have left the scene, he still had the right to kill him?”

    You’re missing a key word. As a matter of fact you’re wrong to use the word “felt” italicized. The law is “A person is justified in using deadly force if he REASONABLY believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself”

    That is a reasonable law meant to help average people. A little bit more nuanced than just “felt”. And a word (reasonable) that is judged by a jury.

  • Gary

    According to the jurors…he was not attacked so why should he feel his life was in imminent danger. HE was the attacker. And once AGAIN…stand your ground was not the defense used and is IRRELEVANT in this case. It was simple self defense. Again the jurors made the best decision they could based on the evidence they had. Zimmerman was injured after all. Why does everyone keep pretending these were not part of the FACTS of the case?

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    I hope the law is never interpreted as the following:

    A person is justified in using deadly force if he REASONABLY believes that such force is necessary to prevent reasoned arguments that might lead to an imminent loss of faith resulting in burning in Hell for all eternity (which is must worse than death).

  • Camino1

    I was not commenting on Zimmerman–just Trayvon. He stood his ground–if the 911 call means anything–and now Trayvon has been found guilty.

    The Zimmerman defense made sure of that.

  • Dennis Irwin

    That…..is …..stupid.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    I’m glad you think so.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Sweet
    And it has nothing to do with Zimmerman.

  • Gary

    No he did not “stand his ground” He attacked Zimmerman for questioning him.

  • Gary

    What law? Self defense has ALWAYS been a legal defense.

  • Camino1

    Okay, he TRIED to stand his ground. ZImmerman never gets out of that car unless he has a gun.

    This would never have happened.

  • Gary

    Well did he TRY to stand his ground or did he attack Zimmerman? Again I do not believe we can make such a conclusion. I know what the jury decided.

    I do totally agree that Zimmerman should have waited for the police. But I doubt he believed he was going to be attacked either.

  • Camino1

    Ah–maybe we have some common ground here. We cannot make a decision, and for the jury there was reasonable doubt.

    Had he been sure there’d be no attack there was no need for a gun, though. No gun, no pursuit, no attack (if there was one).

  • Gary

    Justify MY racist attitudes? Yes…because ANYONE who disagrees with your views on racism MUST be racist.

  • Gary

    David I am curious as to what you are referring to when you state that “everyone knows they lied”?

  • Keane Sanders

    Perhaps if your argument so far wasn’t “look at these statistics I found-they totally justify anti-black narratives; look at this article this black person wrot ethat doesn’t really address how things got that way but it’s totally a great excuse to ignore all the work done on how the current narratives and realities got here; racism totally affects white people too!”, I might be a little more inclined to not think you’re racist.

    But if it talks like a racist, and uses its own ignorance to justify its positions like a racist….

  • Gary

    What an ass. You are also a blatant liar by making up your own statements about what my “arguments” are. You know you are lying as you say it because my arguments have been varied and NOT At all WHAT YOU CLAIM THEM TO BE. Pointing out that there is far more black on black violent crime committed than there is racially motivated crime is NOT an “anti-black narrative. It is looking at the facts related to the problem so an intelligent discussion can be had. Stats are tools to help one understand a problem so an educated approach can be used to tackle it. Only a profoundly biased idiot claims to seek to understand the problem is racist. if you cannot discuss this with even a shred of integrity then you can simply take your bullsht elsewhere and leave me the fuck alone.

  • Camino1

    The jury made a call based on the concept of “reasonable doubt.” We all have our doubts.

    The larger problem is that we can be so blind to a systemic flaw that allows such a vindication that obviates the meaning of life.

  • Elizabeth Whitacre

    for u to compare Jesus and tm are completely out of line. And if you read the bible you would know that. Jesus was the Son of God and was crucified for what some Jews that were a crime. He did not do drugs he did not use racist comments he performed miracles. He spread the word of God now u want to compare the Son of God raised from the dead to a druggie who tried to kill a man. think about it. No matter how much u weigh if sit on someone’s chest u can kill them, and on top of that he was also banging his head into concrete.


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