What Is Quiverfull?

by Vyckie


Q: What is “Quiverfull?”

“Quiverfull” is a convenient, though I believe, somewhat unfortunate term which we’re using at No Longer Quivering to describe a family lifestyle which is growing in popularity among evangelical Christians ~ particularly those who home educate their children.

Quiverfull ~ is the idea that truly godly families will “trust the Lord” with their family planning. Children are viewed as unmitigated blessings (“As arrows in the hand of the mighty man, so are the children of ones youth, happy is the man who hath his quiver full of them”) and as such, the couple is willing to have as many children as the Lord chooses to bless them with. Artificial or chemical birth control such as the Pill or IUDs are equated with abortion ~ the sin of murdering your own offspring. “Natural” birth control such as Natural Family Planning is not actually “natural” because a couple must abstain at the very time of the month when the woman is naturally more desirous of physical intimacy. All methods of “conception control” is considered a lack of trust in God to provide for the “children of the righteous.”

Here’s how I described “Quiverfull” back when I still believed it:

Radically Pro-Life – A.K.A. “Quiverfull,” “allowing the Lord to plan our family,” or “trusting God with our family planning.” It is this ideal which has resulted in our having quite a few more than the average number of children. Why do Christians seek to limit the size of their families through the use of chemical birth control? The truth be told, our reasoning generally parallels that of the abortion culture – additional children will cause inconvenience, financial hardships, lifestyle constraints – all this coupled with the desire to separate sex from procreation. How can the Church expect to speak with any moral authority on the evils of abortion when we ourselves are guilty of the very anti-life values fueled by the family planning mentality?

I say that the term “Quiverfull” is “unfortunate” because, I don’t believe that many who are involved in this lifestyle would label themselves as “Quiverfull” ~ and also because it implies a special focus on the anti-birth control aspect of the lifestyle which is not necessarily primary among those who have adopted some or all of the beliefs associated with what might more aptly be called “the Christian family renewal movement” or the practice of “biblical family values.”

(A mouthful, I know ~ which is why we continue to refer to this lifestyle as “Quiverfull” and often “QF/P” to include the patriarchal teachings as well.)

Q. Is “Quiverfull” a denomination?

“Quiverfull” is NOT a denomination ~ those families which are involved are not required to ascribe to any particular doctrinal beliefs ~ you will find “Quiverfull” families in many different denominations, though they seem to be most heavily represented in more fundamentalist denominations (Baptist, “non-denominational,” Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ, etc.) as well as churches with Postmillenial/Dominionist leanings (“Orthodox Presbyterian,” for example) and especially among home fellowships.

The teachings of the Quiverfull lifestyle are spread primarily through the Christian home school movement. Many of the publishing companies which cater to the curriculum needs of the Christian home school community also publish and promote materials which address lifestyle choices regarding biblical family structure, roles, and practices.

A few of the most popular of these suppliers include:

Vision Forum

Grace & Truth Books

Rod & Staff

American Vision

Quiverfull ideals are also promoted through magazines which are popular among homeschoolers including:

Above Rubies

Wisdom’s Gate Publications: Home School Digest / Encouraging Word

SALT Magazine

Family Reformation Magazine

There are also several websites/ministries which are led by teens who are promoting the Quiverfull family values to Christian youth:

The Rebelution

Visionary Daughters

Christian parents who attend their local home school curriculum fair will find at least as much family-oriented materials as they do academic curriculum. Workshop speakers are as likely to talk about “How a wife can use reverence to build or save her marriage” as they are to teach parents how to help their high school-aged students learn advanced mathematics.

Q. What are the basic “family values” teachings which are frequently adopted by “Quiverfull” families?

Along with the idea of “trusting the Lord” in the area of family planning, here are some of the “values” which are promoted among QF/P families:

Patriarchy ~ this is the belief that by God’s perfect design, it is the father who is the head of the home ~ in his leadership capacity, the father serves as protector, provider and shepherd for his wife and children. He is primarily responsible for the wife’s and children’s physical, emotional and spiritual well-being and with such responsibility comes the (divinely granted) commensurate authority over the members of his household. According to this view, God works through the father and he serves as an intermediary for his wife and children. Honor, obedience and submission are highly valued qualities because they are necessary to maintain order and work together to accomplish the Lord’s vision for a godly family.

Courtship or Betrothal instead of dating ~ the father’s protection of and authority over his children extends especially to the choosing of a mate. In this system, the fathers play a very influential role in the “courtship” process. Every family seems to have its own take on exactly how courtship is to be carried out. Typically, if a young man is interested in a particular girl, he will consult with his father who then approaches the father of the young lady to discuss the possibility of a potential match. If the girl’s father is in agreement, he will then talk to his daughter ~ and if she shows an interest, the courtship (or betrothal ~ which is as binding as marriage) begins and this basically means that the couple is serious about getting married. The parents are in control of the relationship at all times. The couple is not to be alone together. The courtship / betrothal period is usually brief and it is expected that the couple will experience their first kiss at the marriage altar. At that time, the father’s authority over the daughter is transferred to her new husband.

Sheltering of the children ~ the home school mindset includes the basic belief that children are to be protected and sheltered from “the world” ~ outside influences which could be detrimental to the child’s spiritual well-being. It is often quoted that “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child” ~ this coupled with the scripture which says, “a companion of fools shall be ruined,” leads to the logical conclusion that children (fools) should not be socialized by other children (fools) ~ but instead should learn social skills from adults. Isolation and control of outside influences is not only considered normal and good ~ it is the godly approach to childrearing.

Biblical Manhood and Womanhood ~ the teaching is that God designed males and females to fulfill distinct roles and that men and women cannot be truly satisfied unless they are consistently filling their special role as a man or woman of God. Men are to be leaders, teachers, initiators, protectors and providers. Women are created to be “helpmeets” to the men in authority over them (husbands, fathers, older brothers) ~ they are to be submissive and yielding. Their primary sphere of influence comes from their role as wives and mothers. The woman’s home is her ministry and her children are her mission field.

Being debt-free and independent of government programs/subsidies ~ adoption of this ideal often leads to financial hardship and deprivation in large families. In order to achieve financial independence, a QF/P family will often move to a rural location or live in sub-standard housing. Wives often operate businesses out of their home, often employing the children to help with the work, in order to supplement the husband’s income. Refusal of government assistance sometimes means that these families go without medical insurance ~ a situation which can influence the parents to choose “natural remedies,” home birth, and similar non-medical approaches to family health.

Home Church / Family-Integrated Church ~ because the family (primarily the father) is seen as the primary conveyor of spiritual guidance and teaching, QF/P families often seek fellowship with like-minded families in a setting which is not age-segregated. The children worship and learn alongside their parents and peer-interaction is closely monitored by the adults / young adults who are present.

Modesty ~ a girl or woman whose clothing is “revealing” is guilty of “defrauding” her Christian “brother” ~ because she is tempting him with impure thoughts in relation to a body (hers) which is not rightfully his to possess. Quiverfull females often wear dresses only ~ many will also wear a head covering as a sign of a woman’s submission to her “head” ~ that is, her husband.

Not all Quiverfull families subscribe to all of the family values listed above ~ and not all accept and practice these teachings to the same degree. There are Quiverfull families which do not home school. There are Quiverfull couples who, while paying lip-service to the “husband as head” mandate, in actual practice are much more egalitarian (mutual submission) when it comes to the decision-making process.

Generally the longer a Christian family is involved in the home school community, the more deeply they become involved in this “family values” lifestyle ~ it is a process which transforms a “normal” family into a patriarchal cult completely at odds with the general population. In fact, the more “peculiar” (set apart) the family becomes, the more they consider themselves “true believers” following “the narrow way” as opposed to their neighbors who are on the “broad path which leads to destruction.”

Discuss this post on the NLQ forums!

  • Dr. Lanlais

    It’s unfortunate that there are individuals who feel the compulsion to set up hatesites to bash things they disagree or are at odds with.

    I know several “quiverfull” families, as you call them, and while I do not subscribe to their ideals of a large family, I have seen them in their natural environment with their children, I have seen them around other families and out in public, and to be fair, they are very well rounded, loving people who choose to have many children, not because they think they will be saved by it or it’s “God’s will” but because they simply LOVE children. All 3 of the families I know that have 6 or more children all make sure they spend time with each one, teaching and nurturing each one on their individual level. And while, as I’ve said, I am not one to choose this lifestyle, being around them does not provoke any sense of “cult” or strange “patriarchy” that you speak of. In fact, one of the families has a very…let’s say…spirited mother who would never in this life or the next lay down and let her husband walk all over her. They simply. love. their. children.

    On the issue of grouping all people into “quiverfull” or “fundamentalist” groups because they choose to either A. have more children than you or I would be able to handle, B. homeschool, C. homebirth, or D. be debt free (UM, hello, most Americans would LOVE to be debt free), I am both a homeschooler and a home-birther. I am neither a fundamentalist nor am I a quiverfull movement subscriber. I am a Christian, but I lean more left than I do right (and actually FOLLOW the words of Christ by loving ALL people and not judging them)! I am a midwife and a naturopath and hold a doctorate. I would consider myself a very highly educated person who makes informed decisions with my children and my own health and well being.

    We chose homeschooling because when my son started kindergarten, he was already reading. After 3 months of public school education, my son no longer had an interest in learning, forgot most of what he had already learned before starting school, was picking up all kind of “colorful” words and acting out in a way he never had before. We live in a very beautiful, quaint town where the crime rate is next to nil and the families all know each other. No one ever feels the need to lock their car when shopping in town. Toward the end of the school year we received information from the school that two 1st grade boys were caught under the play set in the play yard engaging in “invasive” sexual acts (I am trying to not be so graphic in my description). That was the decision maker for me. My son’s next year, we decided to homeschool. My husband and I sat down and discussed it at length and decided that a our son (or daughter for that matter) attending a sub-par school to get a sub-par education was not worth the potential life altering traumatic experiences he could face(and that children face every single day across the US).

    Once he started homeschooling again, we got our happy, free spirited, respectful, loving son back! We enrolled him in a program which is fully accredited (so if he wants to be a Dr, like his mother, one day, he will be able to) academy, and costs about $1000 per annum per child–which requires group studies, interaction with other children etc etc. Our son is so far beyond his “grade level” (they insisted on putting him in the same grade level as everyone his own age so he was not “different” than the other kids and he would “fit in”) and it was a great injustice to him to be mindlessly molded to fit in their little boxes they expect every other child to conform to…

    I could go on for hours more! But I will spare you. About the choice to homebirth, how the experience changed our lives in so many AMAZING ways, how “natural medicine” saved the life of my uncle who was terminally ill with cancer, which inspired me to become an ND.

    My whole point to this unorganized rambling is that it is unfair to judge people just because they subscribe to a different belief system than you do OR because you once were in a bad situation that involved that particular belief system. NOT ALL quiverfull families are “cultish’ THOUGH I KNOW there are countless ones that are. NOT ALL homeschooling families do it to shelter their children, though I know there are many who do. NOT ALL homebirthing parents choose that route because they are financially impaired. NOT ALL Christians are Bible thumping, judge mental a-holes out to whack you in the head with a Bible or point their finger in your face our propagate hatred toward people who don’t believe the way they do….but I know there are MANY who do…

    Don’t do as they do and bring yourself to their level and judge others because they believe differently than you do. Find peace with in yourself and make a NEW way for yourself if you don’t believe with how you were raised, and be content and at peace within that . But don’t point the finger of hate at others because they choose to have many children or home school or….etc etc….

  • Dr. Lanlais

    To provide a place where women who have been spiritually abused is a fantastic outreach for someone of your position. Please stop the generalization. Please make a comparison between abusive large families with the agenda of control and “righteousness” and the large families who are normal and loving…just different than others. To not make the contrast or to generalize is hurtful, hateful and offensive and, I would even venture to say, propaganda as many people who don’t understand this lifestyle will now group all large families into “cults”. Unfair.

  • Margaret

    To not make the contrast or to generalize is hurtful, hateful and offensive


    See, I find this so ironic. The article, and this site, are based on generalizations.

  • Helen Gallagher

    You don’t agree that marginalising women into doemstic slavery is hurtful, hateful or offensive?

  • April

    WONDERFUL!!! THIS THIS THIS!!! I love much of what I have seen on this site but it also seems as if there has been quite a bit of “grouping” per say. We are Jesus loving, God obeying, two child, homeschooling, cloth diapering, mostly mutual submission house hold. We discuss everything together and usually reach a mutual decision TOGETHER although in the rare event that we do not my spouse is the HOH and does make the decision. I was married once before and it was horrible. I was treated like a cow that was purchased and used however he saw fit. I submitted blindly. In the end my anger and rage gave me the strength the leave. There is quite a difference between broken painful submission to a hate filled tyrant and a joyful peace filled relationship. The submission to my spouse is not like most minds perceive it to be but instead a safe harbor. I have seen what submission should NOT be and what the Lord intended it to be!

  • http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com Phoenix Woman

    “There is quite a difference between broken painful submission to a hate filled tyrant and a joyful peace filled relationship. The submission to my spouse is not like most minds perceive it to be but instead a safe harbor. I have seen what submission should NOT be and what the Lord intended it to be!”

    So you don’t like being an independent being. That’s your choice — just quit trying to inflict it on me.

  • kate dyson

    well said…no human should have to submit to another in such a way…reprehensible….

  • janie

    If you and your husband are mutually submitting to one another as it talks about in Ephesians, that is one thing. However, your words that your submission to your husband is a safe harbor makes me think not. I know you probably love God and are trying to go by scriptural principles, but I believe you are not looking at the the whole counsel of God.

    There is only one safe harbor. It isn’t your husband or any human being. Your husband may be a wonderful God-loving man but he WILL fail you because he, like you, is human. So he is not so safe after all.

    Not surprisingly, no scripture says your husband is a safe harbor. If you read that into the text, you are mistaken.

    The Bible teaches there is one mediator, one safe harbor, one high priest. That is Jesus. Don’t put any man in the place of Christ.

  • Jon

    “There is quite a difference between broken painful submission to a hate filled tyrant and a joyful peace filled relationship. The submission to my spouse is not like most minds perceive it to be but instead a safe harbor. I have seen what submission should NOT be and what the Lord intended it to be!”
    During the time of slavery, there were some slave owners who treated their slave well, perhaps these slaves even fared better than some poor free men. But they were still slaves, they were not free!!!! So if we could have “joyful peace filled ” slavery, should we?

  • Andrew

    Okay doctor…Did you get a doctorate of BS from Bob Jones University because you are clearly not doing much with it if you are homeschooling your children…

  • Kim

    Who better to educate children than an educated, well-rounded mother?

    We have homeschooled our two daughters all the way through from pre-k through high school and along the way become the first certified clinical exercise specialist in my state, owned and managed a full service fitness center for seven years and run a retail business in the midst of it. As a result, we have educated children who can “socialize” with the best of them and who understand how to run a household and a business. Because of his lay off and a good job offer I received, my husband agreed to become Mr. Mom and head homeschool teacher for a couple of years, too.

    We are a Christian family who chose the United Methodist Church over the more fundamentalist denomination we grew up in because showing people the love of Christ seemed more biblical than the condemnation we had been taught.

  • angie wilkerson

    Most homeschooling families I know are not quiver-full supporters. However; if a husband and wife are in agreement in this area and are supporting their family financially, spiritually and emotionally, I don’t see that it is anyone’s business. I don’t agree however with the “parentizing” of the older kids. I can see them helping with chores, but mom and dad gave birth to the kids and the siblings should not be primary care givers.

  • http://www.corneliaseigneur.com Cornelia Seigneur

    so true!

  • mom of three

    For a “doctor” it does not appear that you were able to read this blog critically. I never for one moment felt the author was referring to all (or a majority of) large families, all (or a majority of) homeschooling families or all (or a majority of)home birthing families. Not only were those claims not made, they were never implied. I think you are too sensitive and not utilizing a logical examination of the author’s argument.

  • thixotropic

    THIS. Total agreement. A doctor should not have such a knee-jerk response, nor is it likely someone with that level of education would perceive this site as issuing the kind of blanket condemnations or generalisations she seems to be reading into it… unless she really did get that degree from Bob Jones University, or another of its ilk
    Such sensitivity and reactionary thinking is essentially defensive… what is it she is trying to defend, I wonder?
    I totally don’t buy that two first graders were caught having penetrative sex, as you are implying. That’s exactly the kind of thing that right wing propagandists are always trying to convince people goes with public schools. It also seems very unlikely to me that such a peaceful, well-run town where neighbors all knew and trusted one another would have allowed the school to be so poorly run. Surely, other parents would have been just as distressed as you, at finding their children unmotivated and picking up bad behaviors at school? Surely, in such a small town, there was substantial parental involvement at that school as well. That whole bit sounds like something from one of the radical right religious sites that tell outrageous lies to scare the flock, and keep them isolated from others around them who do not follow their beliefs — that same kind of isolating tactic is exactly what an abusive, controlling man will do to his wife.
    I do buy that your child may have been distressed at transitioning from the environment of your home to school, and may not have gotten along well there, but your other claims sound like something you read somewhere. Such terrible schooling and aberrant behavior would not have produced the wonderful town you spoke of.

  • http://www.corneliaseigneur.com Cornelia Seigneur

    It’s not hate- it’s discernment- you have no idea the bondage they put on you and on sweet daughters with a dream

  • Lisa

    Dr. Lanlais
    On the objective information front, I could go on about the fact that lack of reproductive rights and excessive childbirth has historically been one of the primary tools for trapping, enslaving and marginalizing women all over the world. On the anecdotal front, I could tell you the sad story of my grandmother who was orphaned at 5 when her mother died giving birth to her tenth child, because her family “didn’t believe” in birth control or following medical advice given to them by actual doctors. Or, I could tell you about a close friend who, a few years ago, came frighteningly close to watching her mother die in front of her while having her fifth child… Luckily they made it to the hospital in time, instead of simply trusting God and relying on the “natural medicine” that almost killed her in the first place. But, instead, I’ll focus on just one aspect of your ill-considered rant; You may think homebirth is empowering and transformative but it’s also often fatal to mothers and babies. Two out of every three babies who die during homebirth COULD have lived, IF they were born in a hospital. As one mother who lost her child said, “I wanted to give birth in the place that was most comfortable for me, instead of the place that was safest for my son.” For that woman, and sadly many others, homebirth was indeed an “experience [that] changed our lives in so many AMAZING ways.” It changed them from expectant mothers joyfully awaiting the birth of their child, to broken women preparing to bury their greatest hope.
    You have your pet peeves to whine about, well this is mine. The things that empower us (motherhood, religion, the illusion of free choice) can just as easily be twisted to control and oppress us. Just because someone stands in firm opposition to the unhealthy, damaging aspects of your sub-culture doesn’t mean they’re simply judging and generalizing. It may mean they’re able to see the forest, while you’re still confused by the trees.

  • thixotropic

    Any responsible homebirth practitioner will have a hospital the mother can be transported to at a moment’s notice and will be notified when she is in labor.
    Hospital births carry risks of their own, including exposure to superbugs and other infections. They also often result in unnecessary medical procedures being performed, such as episiotomies, epidurals, and c-sections. All of which are great, if needed, but are often done when they aren’t needed at all. C-sections are lucrative, and reduce the amount of time spent in delivery, which benefits the doctor and the hospital, but not the mother. Guidelines for fetal monitoring and time spent in normal labor are outdated, and often result in unnecessary medical intervention. Hospitals are still having pregnant women deliver on their backs, which is convenient for doctors but much harder for the woman, as gravity is working against her, rather than for her. Instead of being encouraged to stand and walk between contractions (which eases delivery and helps speed it along) she is left on her back. The pressure of the baby’s weight on nerves in her spine can cause permanent damage, and often causes enough pain during delivery for her to need an epidural that otherwise would not be required. Epidurals are dangerous; the needle must be very precisely aimed and ‘missed’ epidurals are far too common, meaning women too often take that risk for nothing.
    Almost everything about hospital delivery is for the convenience (and profit) of the doctors, not the mother or child, and much of it is a risk to her and her baby.
    Unnecessary medical interventions are one of the main reasons we have such a high rate of death in childbirth here in America — the worst in the industrialised world. We aren’t doing so well by the babies either — infant mortality rates are similarly high.

  • madame

    In the UK, where I gave birth to my two sons, homebirthing is quite common. My midwife recommended it to me if I felt confident, all along reassuring me that the hospital is prepared to admit a laboring woman who decided to have a home birth for whatever reason, even if she just changes her mind!

  • Illiana

    Just because you treat your sons better than your daughters and want to have 30 kids doesn’t mean everyone wants to…idiot.

  • http://blog.mrzach.com/ Zachariah Wiedeman

    I would encourage you to reconsider your position. I don’t necessarily agree that this site paints all large families with one brush or that it is a propaganda site to label everyone in this group as in a “cult.”

    In fact, I don’t think this site seems to be about hate at all. I know many families and COME from a family that adhered to many, if not all, of the values listed above. So, my first inclination would be to be offended as well – like you were. My first thought is, “Hey, you’re talking about MY people!” Why are you making us all look bad?

    However, I am fortunate that my parents and most the people I knew growing up took a very reasonable approach to these values and did not go overboard into what could be considered unhealthy and/or abusive behavior. I have seen many unfortunate situations there were “overboard” in my estimation and caused great damage to my friends and their families. It would seem that this site is designed as a support group for people who have *suffered* from the latter. I don’t think anyone who gets involved in these type of values does so for hateful reasons of with ill intent – and I think this site recognized that. I believe that the “overboard” behavior comes from insecurity and lack of information.

    My father, who is an Evangelical pastor, by the way, went through a tremendous maturation process spiritually as I was growing up – and how he raised his family changed from some “less than healthy” behaviors to more healthy behaviors. I am the second of seven children, and in my early childhood we were extremely sheltered, home schooled, and taught similar beliefs listed above, including some even more radical ones such as ‘any music (even Christian contemporary music) with a back beat is part of devil worship and will invite demon possession.’

    My father didn’t subscribe to any of his beliefs, some of which some might call “radical” or “dangerous” because he wanted to be mean or controlling or patriarchal. He was a new Christian who craved spiritual guidance and direction and in his quest to do the right thing – for himself and for his family – became plugged in with several groups which were teaching a very strict and narrow worldview.

    My family is so blessed to have escaped some of the tragedy that other families went through who subscribed to even more radical and narrow worldviews on family planning and child rearing. However, I don’t believe anyone HATES anyone for having gone through this.

    Hate comes from not understanding. This site seems to be about teaching understanding but also presenting alternative viewpoints. It may be limited and imperfect – who or what isn’t? – but I don’t think there is bad intent behind it. This site just doesn’t seem to be about hating at all. If anything, it is about loving.

  • Dr. Lanlais

    to amend my last statement: “to provide a place where women who have been spiritually abused to come and relate and heal and find peace, is a fantastic outreach”

  • Reasonable

    Something smells funny…oh yeah this guy is NOT a real doctor, just some enraged christian fundie hack, who wants to lure vulnerable women backinto the cult with calls of “hey its not really bad”

  • http://www.voicegrace.blogspot.com julie

    Hi. Love your blog! After reading your description of what quiverfull is, I guess we were part of it and didn’t even know it! We did (and still do) use birth control but left that hellish life behind a few years ago, thank God! Anyway, you listed some organizations that are involved in promoting these views so I thought I’d mention the group we were part of, Sovereign Grace Ministries. Actually, Joshua Harris pastors the mother church in Gaithersburg MA and it is his younger brothers who have the rebelution website. Feel free not to publish this comment if you’re uncomfortable with me sharing these details… Anyway, God Bless! I know God is using you to help women and their families find the freedom Jesus intends, and GRACE.

  • Helen

    You forgot to mention all the Muslim families that are migrating to the west and having quiverfull HOUSEHOLD run by one controlling man, all on welfare programs and planning to take over your country THE USA AND EVENTULLY THE WHOLE WORLD…. and when they put YOU under the SHARIAA LAW you be happier than when you were living as a GODLY guiverful wife and mother!!!!!!!!!!!!! I promise you they WILL HUNT YOU DOWN and cut your fingers for writing anything against them, or may be slash your throut for blabbing your mouth too much………………..I come from a muslim country and know what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!!
    see what you are doing in this SICK blog is NOT helping, you know it and I know it, all you are looking for is to become POPULER, and have the donate botton on your blog milking some stupid simple minded mothers and wives to give YOU $$$$$$$$$, THROUGH PREACHING SATANIC AGENDA, YOU ARE A WOLFE IN SHEEPS CLOTHING!!!!!!!!! by the way you created this blog to go against GOD, and no one els, because you know the quiverfull life style is from GOD’S WORD THE BIBLE, and trusting GOD with all our affairs is from GOD’S WORD TOO, you fooled yourself thinking you are freed, but the reality is you put yourself under a a very crul and unjust MASTER, his name is the DEVIL, and he is not going to be kind and loving like God is, AND YOU ARE braking families and pulling as many dumb women down with you as can reach.
    I do not have a quiverfull, I wish I did.., but the life of sin and misiry left me so broken and weakend That I can not have any more children, I only have 2 children, at 45 but I do know many families that are quiverful families and yes they are NOT perrrrrrrrrrfect families LIKE YOURS!, but I know they are very loving and always trying to do the best for thier children, society, and the world in large, and I would much rather be surrounded by those quiveful, CHRISTIANS and simple families than abunch MUSLIMS SAVAGES the only reason for them to live is to murder an infedle like you!!!!!!!!!!
    I am sorry for my NOT very sweet comment but if you grow up where I did and saw what I have seen you would understand where I am coming from…….
    So now tell me what is all wrong with the “basic “family values” teachings” of the quiverful families you listed above?
    you would probebly much rather prefer the MUSLIM OR THE HOMOSEXUAL “family values” THAN the once you listed above. Please go and get educated about them because they are coming to your town if they are not there yet, and pretty soon take controll of your life and the life your children and grandchildren!!!!
    you ended your post with this paragraph
    “Generally the longer a Christian family is involved in the home school community, the more deeply they become involved in this “family values” lifestyle ~ it is a process which transforms a “normal” family into a patriarchal cult completely at odds with the general population. In fact, the more “peculiar” (set apart) the family becomes, the more they consider themselves “true believers” following “the narrow way” as opposed to their neighbors who are on the “broad path which leads to destruction.” ”
    the word “peculiar”, “set a part”,” the narrow way” “broad path which leads to destruction.”come from the BIBLE, GOD’S WORD, so you see your rejection, rebelion, hate, judgment, belliteling is against HIM, and no one els.
    I thank GOD regulerly for helping me see there was quiverful families, they taught me so much, and enriched my broken life, and yes I would take the advice of any quivering wife and mother any day over your hericies.
    Stop trying to steel the glory from the beautiful Dugger family, you will not get nowwhere!!!!

    In conclusion I must try to help you because I am a Christian and MY duty is to share the everlasting love AND THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE WITH YOU THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET FROM HIM ALONE, so if you are not 100% sure if you died you would have a home in heaven then please read the three ABC points below and search your heart ,
    1. A… Admit you are a sinner
    for all have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.Rom 3:23
    2.Believe that JESUS died on the cross to pay for you sin and went to HELL in your place, so you do not have to go there, and rose again and purchased for you eternal life.
    But God commendeth his love towards us in that while we were yet sinners CHRIST died for us.Rom 5:8
    3.Confess Jesus as your LORD AND SAVIOR. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart the God hath raised him from thr dead, thou shalt be saved.Rom10:9

    Now if you are allready saved, then you must be a backslidden, rebelious, bitter, and just down right full of hate Christian, that is by choice inslaved yourself to the most crule, dangerous, and distructive MASTER ever, THE DEVIL, in that case I humbly and prayerfully beg you to turn around and take your life back from him and commit to serving the ALMIGHTY GOD, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, so you do not suffer shame at his coming and lose your rewards in heaven.
    you probebly are not going to publish my comment, but if you do you are considered one brave woman………..

  • http://assassingrl.com AssassinGrl

    You are right about one thing, Vyckie is a brave woman, not because she published your crazy comment, but because she had the guts to leave an abusive, misogynistic, patriarchal life and stand up for her own rights. If you think that Christians who think they can control women by keeping them pregnant like some kind of breeding stock are any less dangerous or abusive than Muslims, you are deluded. ANY society that seeks to control women by putting a value on the state of their hymen or the number of babies they squeeze out, is morally reprehensible. Please wake up and stop aiding the abusers.

  • Erin

    The fact that people like you exist, Helen, make me fear for the world.

    I don’t even know where to begin. Just… wow.

    Maybe learn how to spell and use correct punctuation. Then get on some anti-psychotics.

  • Ruth

    This website is obviously not for you. Those of us who grew up with no voice and no personal worth really DO appreciate what Vyckie is doing by having this website and blog.
    Yes, there are wonderful families who are very large, but having lots of kids is not a mark of spirituality!
    I hope that you allow God to heal your heart from the painful past.

  • Kinesionics

    Helen, if this is what you call loving Christianity, KEEP IT!

  • D


    There is help for you…mental help. All you need to do is ask. You don’t have to live in all this hate and sadness.

  • Michelle

    Helen, ever read “Love thy neighbor as you would love thyself” in the Bible?

    Check out http://www.liberalslikejesus.org. Very insightful website that argues that if Jesus were alive today, he would be a liberal.

  • Rebecca

    Jesus would never be okay with stealing from the rich to give to the poor. He wasn’t okay with charity for people who didn’t work for themselves, either.
    Thessalonians 3:6-15 6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. 13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

  • Karen

    What in the world does that have to do with real liberalism? Sounds like a straw man argument to me.

  • LiberalJesus

    Misappropreation of ancient text to support a modern political veiw? I can do that too!
    Acts 2:44-45 All the believers joined together and shared everything in common; they sold their possessions and goods and divided the proceeds among the fellowship according to individual need.
    Acts 4:32,34-35 (NIV) All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
    Luke 3:11 (NIV) John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.”

    Luke 6:30 (Jer) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.”

    SOCIALISM!!!!!! (I know this is old, but she so asked for it XD)

  • Chxlive

    “Jesus would never be okay with stealing from the rich to give to the poor.”

    No, but he told the “rich young ruler” to go home, sell everything he had, give the money *directly* to the poor, and THEN – AFTER THAT – “come and follow me.” Tell us – do you do what Jesus told people to do? Or do you prefer the non-Jesus passages like this:
    2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.”
    1 Timothy 5:8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
    Gee – really? What about Matthew 6 where JESUS said not to worry about tomorrow, where you would sleep, what you would wear, what you would eat, because “God will provide”???
    Christians don’t really seem to care much for what Jesus said…
    If you aren’t familiar with that give-everything-to-the-poor passage, you can look it up: Matthew 19:16-24. That’s the same passage where he says that he’s not good; only “God” is good O_O

  • Lily Helstrom

    Jesus didn’t write Thessalonians. Paul did. Nothing that Paul said in Thessalonians tells you anything about what Jesus said.

  • lisa

    To All: All I can say is WOW. To the lady who stated that if Jesus was on this earth today “He would be a liberal” you would be wrong. His word says all through out it that he would be a very conservative man, not a liberal. Sorry. It’s the Word.
    I had never heard of the Quiver Movement until an hour ago and boy I feel like I entered another plane. What it seems reading all of this is that it started with Vicki disagreeing with the Duggers lifestyle, I have read such angry responses to each others reply… Calling persons idiots, abusive, not educated. As adults should we not state our opinions without lowering ourselves to angry name calling?
    I personally don’t care for this website after what I have read. I do however thank Vicki for sharing and enlightening me on other groups and homeschooling literature and text that I will never use. Tho, I do believe that there are wonderful people who love children and like big families and its nothing to with the word or Quiver or controlling, they just love big families….
    I come from a family of 13, 4 died. We were’nt religious, parents were abusive. drinkers. should never have had children and just because my mother was embarrassed to ask the Dr. for birth control, she had more kids. We weren’t monied and my mom worked and step worked and I raised 9 children on my own. We didn’t have interraction between child and parent except in the bad ways. No parental guidance so we made alot of stupid mess ups and boy did we get it…. we did not feel love and I knew I was a slave. I had no life of my own from 9 til I left at 18, So. if the Duggers are in Quivers then it seems to be working for them and their children. I do however choose not to believe that Michelle and Jim Bob hit their childrem from 6mo on. I will never believe that and I come from abuse and I do not get that from them, There is loving respect towards mom and dad . And each member of the family are very loving and respectful towards each other….. We lied, hit, backstabbed and intentionally hurt each other because we didn’t know any better I do believe in family values. personal values and how we should walk and talk and be with each other, and I believe every word in the bible and trust God that he knew what he was talking about when he had it written from beginning to end. He is love He loves the sinner yet not his sin, and he never apologizes for this. Let’s be kinder to one another and not so hateful. Thank you

  • me

    blah blah blah

  • Jane

    I fail utterly to see how what you believe differs all that much from the Muslim teachings you hate and fear.

  • The Devil

    Dearest Helen,

    I am the Devil. I am coming to eat your soul and the souls of your worthless children.

    The Devil (AKA – Satan)

  • Stacia

    At least learn to spell if you choose to behave like a psychopathic banshee.

  • Kim

    This is so islamophobic and bigoted, I don’t even know what to think. I hope you’re a troll, because frankly, you are one of the most hateful people I’ve seen on the internet. Which is saying a lot.

    I live in a community with a high percentage of Muslims (I myself am agnostic), and they are the ones that do the most to add to our community. They are some of the most courageous, most friendly, most feminist people I’ve ever met. In my town, there is a lower rate of sexual harassment than I’ve experienced anywhere. REAL Muslims respect women.

  • Kat

    Perhaps instead of bashing this wonderful website where survivors can tell their stories to help others and heal, you should go read a book on grammar and spelling, because yours is simply awful…homeschool at it’s finest, I supose! Come to think of it, what you have to say is pretty awful! People like you are the reason people like me think Quiverfull-Duggar-types who homeschool are freaky and scary. I would not allow my child to associate with someone like that, or rather, someone like you and your offspring. I feel pity for your children, and for your misguided thinking – I hope you get the help you obviously deserve!! And soon!! Yikes!

  • Derbasementcat

    Alright, I try not to commit Heinous acts of thread Necromancy*₁. But your response was terrible on so many levels.

    1. One you are a worse typist and speller than I am. This in and of it; s self is impressive for Native English Speaker. But “Oh I Immigrated from an oppressive Muslim country you say!” Bullshit. This is obviously bullshit for easy to tell reasons which I will explain in the following paragraphs.

    I. If you lived in one of these Oppressive Counties Which Has Shiria Law you would live Either in North Africa or Mid-East with the exception of India, which if Memory serves, can apply Shiria law to Muslim citizens only. But I might be wrong on that last bit. As mentioned before your spelling is bad. This might make sense for a non-native speaker. But your Grammar usage and Spelling mistakes do not reflect having knowledge of previous language. You just seem not to be able to type….or spell.

    II. Plus, we have the use of the word/slang “Purrrrrfect” This is outdated American slang and if I remember is only used by Catwoman in the 1960’s Batman. Or maybe in Americans Children’s Cartoons or Bad translations “dubs” of Anime.

    III. If you lived in predominantly Muslim country you would probably have made more connections and friendships with Muslims, E.I been married to one, encountered Muslim women, etc. It’s immensely difficult to live in a country particularly one so totalitarian as the contently unspecified one you claim to be from and not have any connections to it or be a product of your culture. Yet you call them “Muslim Savages”.

    IV. You seem to follow a Protestant Denomination of Christianity from the Verses you cited, that is the King James Bible, Correct? This would make your particular denomination of Christianity a British or American Type such as Baptist or Evangelical as Opposed to Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox? Statistically speaking the Christian minority in most Muslim counties is either Roman Catholic or some form of Eastern Orthodox. This makes your claim even more sketchy.

    V. If you were an oppressed woman who was a member of a religious minority in a predominantly Muslim country with a strict totalitarian regime like you claim to be your attitude would be completely different. You’re all off. The sense of entitle meant wouldn’t be there. That’s a learned trait that comes from being part of a long standing prevailed class, E.I a Christian in America. An Oppressed woman immigrating in from a Muslim country having finally escaped a life time of abuse? There might be anger and bitterness perhaps? But this overarching sense of arrogance and self righteousness you’re showing? That’s prevlage coming out. That’s your true background coming out.

    VI: So we established you are not who you say you are. That was not really all that hard to do. Who are you really? I can not say for sure? Christian, obviously belonging to some American-Protestant Demonstration. I’m not sure of your sex, that could go either way and really doesn’t matter as the above claims of yours were demonstrated to be false. You are probably young considering the combination of your poor spelling and typing skills and your complete lack of understanding of the real world, other religions, freedom of speech, freedom of religion in the United States, and how laid back and relaxed most Muslim Immigrants actually are*₂

    2. Ah Religion. Where to Start. I could point out that the O.P or owner of the Web-Site does not need to justify her beliefs to you. Or I could Site the First Amendment. You know Separation of Church and State, as well as Free Speech being protected. But that’s been done. I could point out that you are working from a book written by bronze age goat headers that is therefor, not really applicable to modern life. You have probably heard that and don’t care. Or you think your God Literally wrote it. Or you believe the Apostles wrote the new testament.

    Or I could point out that the Sumerian Creation mythology also has man and woman being created by clay and the earth and the sky being separated. And that most Historians theorize that a large part of the old testament was written during the Babylonian captivity as a sort of morality boost for the Hebrews. The Babylonian’s if you know your history were Conquerors of Sumerians and co-opted their mythological cycle, so you can see where they got they ideas for some of their myths…..

    Or I could point out every thing historically inaccurate in the Bible….but I would need to write an entire series of books. Even Exodus takes a wile to go through. Lets just say you; re about a couple thousand years off on when the pyramids were built, who was king and that at the time there’s no record or substantial Ethnic Hebrew minority in Egypt. Oh….and no record of plagues around that time….recorded….any where else….how odd.

    3.This is really a more personal gripe. But the way you use punctuation, grammar, and the caps lock key literally hurts my eyes. Would it have killed you to at least use 1.5 paragraph spacing, space between words, some form of spell check, and like pretend to know that there are spaces between sentences and paragraphs. I know I needed glasses and have weak eyes, but this is king of gratuitous. Now back to more relevant points.

    4.”You would probably much rather prefer the MUSLIM OR THE HOMOSEXUAL Family Values”

    You know what I’m not in the mood to touch your rampant Islamaphobia at the moment. Yes there are radical Islamic extremists. This is obvious. But the same can be said of Christians. And those are you know….already here.

    That said….What is with you constant paranoia about “US” Yes, I am “A homosexual”. I am this mysterious boogeyman.” Ooooh oh no. The phantom scary homosexual out to corrupt your children. No, not really. One, homosexuals do not have one “Value” system about anything any more than Heterosexuals do. Or African Americans. Or what ever other ethnic or sexual minority group you can think of. Please stop fear mongering. It; s rude, embarrassing and just….tacky. My personal family values? I’m not sure really? I think the partners should treat psychotherapy with respect and love and strive to raise any children involved to be ethical, intelligent, Healthy, Happy and Free-people? Be responsible about what you do? I guess that’s my “Family values?” That’s the family values of most of the people I know, homosexual or Heterosexual…. So I’m not sure where you are going with homosexual family values. And as for us forcing it on you? No, we want to be able to live or lives and not have other people’s religion govern how we should live our lives. Something you claim you would be able to understand. I suppose tolerance is only good if it works in favor of Christians though?

    5. I’m a tad torn whether you are trying to gain “Conversion points”*₃ or just trying to intimidate her into shutting down her website. Probably both.

    This comment annoyed me so much that I wrote about it while watching “The rape of Lucretia.” The Irony of this is not lost on me. How ever about the latter. Why are men in this Opera wearing suits and the women sort of half done Tuscan Clothes? This bothers me?

    Sorry, distracted. Contralin/Ritalin must be leaving my system. You are a Quiver full posing as an independent party in an attempt to discredit this website. You are a horrible/Actor/Actress. Also You are bad at typing. Your Islamaphobia, Homophobia, Misogyny, and Blatant Disregard for any one that does not agree with your world view is disturbing to me.

    Foot Notes:

    1. Thread Necromancy is resercating a dead thread or responding to an old post. This often frowned upon

    2. Yes, I actually Gasp know Muslims who are both Native and Non-native to this country. Some of them are nice people some of them aren’t. You know like…..every one….else

    3. Conversion points are concept I came across. Some Religious people seem to gain Mystical/Karmic points from their chosen deity if they convert some one. It’s sort of like finding one of the “Secrets” in the Tomb raider Games for PSX or something….

  • Crispy Fried Heathen

    From one Godless, homosexual linguaphile to another – thank you!

    My ‘Homosexual Agenda’ is:

    Eat an apple
    Watch the new Stephen Fry documentary about how English evolved
    Resolve to take pity on the likes of Helen, and fear people who apparently, only refrain from hurting other people because they believe it may offend some guy who died thousands of years ago.

  • Karen

    *stands up and applauds*

  • LiberalJesus

    I wasn’t going to leave another comment but this deserved a standing ovation. Good on ya! (Jesus had two daddies and he ended up just fine 😉 )

  • Sara

    Helen, people like you saved me from believing in a god.

  • Tess

    For Gods sake Helen get some help.

  • dsatitra1

    Helen, it is obvious you are in urgent need of PSYCHIATRIC HELP. I hope you get it, so you’ll realize that YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL PEOPLE WHO DON’T PRACTICE YOUR HATEFUL, MONSTROUS FAITH TO ABIDE BY SUCH A MONSTROSITY. Do yourself a favor and get a divorce from the SOB you’re married to who treats you like a 2nd class citizen, spit in your pastor’s face and go to a real Christian church, instead of the mockery you go to now.

  • Rhonnie

    The longer I waded through your comment, Helen…the more apalled I became. You attack what you call this sites “hateful” attitude and then carry on to attack the site owner personally. Yet you did it in the most hateful of terms and, if I may point out…with horrifying grammar, spelling, and articulation. I DO hope we are not to look at your example of ignorance as a example of homeschooling at work. I would suggest you pry that plank out of your eye before worrying about the speck in anothers. You became exactly what you were preaching against. Ghastly…truly ghastly.

  • jenny nixe

    I think Helen illustrates some of the problems inherent in homeschooling. First, if done incorrectly, homeschooling produces marginally literate adults. Second, there’s nothing to stop those marginally literate people from “educating” their own kids at home. And eventually, you’re having to translate ballot issues into rebus so the general populace can vote.

  • lexo

    Your chosen deity does not exist.

  • tori

    There is no more wrong with muslim lifestyles, then there is with christian.

  • Chxlive

    Oh barf.

  • brensgrrl

    Helen, I feel sorry for you. What an incredible scree of misspelled words and horrific grammar! Were you or are you homeschooled? It seems likely because people who have been homeschooled also lack in the social graces of good manners and tasteful behavior. Have you never read this in the Bible:
    “And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong. He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth.” 2 Timothy 2:24-25

  • Chandra

    Helen, you are an idiot.

  • Danielle

    I just want to know the difference between Sharia law and the Fundamentalist Christian laws. Both put men on pedestals, automatically better than the women they marry, or the daughters they have. Both have crazy laws that make sexuality immoral and blame women for the abuse that may happen because of this. Both believe that large families are good and, more than that, good for society, which is contrary to every family study, or social movement. Both believe in a fictional character for moral guidance, instead of your own moral code. Both are wrong for any progressive society, and if you don’t believe in progress, please stop using antibiotics for your children when they get sick, or using the running water from a tap, and go live 2000 years ago when your Bible was written. I will continue living in the 21st century, that allows my daughter to get an education, and have children that are wanted and planned, with a person who views her as a partner, and not a slave.

  • Helen

    you should fear when the muslims and the faggets surround you, they know how to use and abuse you alot better than the (not so perfect Christian husband), they will rape you whenever they want, cut your nose and lips to disfigure your face if you ever decide to leave, and if you left, they will hunt you down and cut you up in the streets, and give your remains to the dogs…so just chilout and take a deep breath with the fact that I exist.
    English became my third languge after I came to America at the age of 25, so please forgive me ………
    I would like to see you going and using what ever brains you have to learn the ARABIC or any other language before bashing my spelling??????
    by the way “anti-psychotics” are “drugs” and they are NOT FIT for Christians, but they probably fit you to control your “fear for the world” !!!!!!!!

    A wise woman buildeth her house, but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.

  • a woman being raped by “faggots”? did you hear abot the world “orientation”? Rape is when the movement says she has no right to refuse her husband, practically making her rapeable any time he wants so.

    on the other hand, male homosexuals are famous for NOT wanting women. Go look at any dictionary.

    your stupidity makes me sad

  • Katie

    Hmmm… I’ve always wanted to learn Arabic.

  • dsatitra1

    you should fear when the muslims and the faggets

    Uh, a homphobe! Not even you should belong to your faith. And why do you have a problem with Muslims? You agree with the small minority who want everyone to practice one faith, so why do you hate them?

  • dsatitra1

    you should NOT fear when the muslims and the faggets, YOU SHOULD FEAR MUSLIM HATING HOMOPHOBES like Helen, who hate America.

  • McFadden

    Oh, you have GOT to be a troll.

  • Anonymous

    Helen, stop spreading hate! You’re one messed-up individual! You’re not here because you care about women; you are here just to spew more hate! Oh, and don’t say “faggot” because that word is offensive to gays! I really hope that you seek the mental help that you need! Now grow up, get a life and get a job! Don’t hate; appreciate!

  • Helen

    assassin girl!!!!!
    what a sick name!!!!!!by the way vycke’s EX and the children are much better off with out her anyway, I am 100% sure of that.
    people like you both are the most selfesh, dangerous, pridefull, heartless, boring, unproductive, ugly, big mouth spoiled, good for nothing brats, and yes you can assassin, because you think you have YOUR OWN RIGHTS………. my foot!!!!!!!!!!!
    you just wait until the muslims finish taking over your selfesh sick lives and then start shouting “your rights” they will slash your throut before taking your next breath, just turn off your sick TV AND get off your big fat you know what and GET EDUCATED about what REALLY is going around you, just study a little about the muslims in Dear Born MI and many other cities in the US and in EUROP, see with your own eyes the completion of the Shariaa law taking over whole cities and what they believe and do with women like you.
    you are trying all you can to bash GOD and Christians, just to get a little attention, because of your empty, meaningless and miserable lives, YOU GO HEAD AND SHOW ME you try to bash the muslims, mohammed and thier book in a country under Shariaa law and see what will come to you next……… GOD BLESS AMERICA AND BREAK DOWN THE BIG LOUD MOUTHS, AND TO GOD BE THE GLORY NOW AND FOREVER AMEN AND AMEN.

  • R-Tam


    Helen, I can see that this is an issue close to your heart and it’s very emotionally charged to you. But are you not letting your emotions harden your heart? I do not think you are hearing what Vickie is saying.

    Tell me, what do (extremist) Muslim regimes do to women that makes you use their existance as a threat? Is it not that they use them as nothing more than breeding mares who must submit to their husband in everything? And women who step out of line are punished with violence. How is this core belief – women’s highest (and ONLY truly godly) calling being child birth and submission to her husband – different from the one Quiverful teaches? The only difference I can see is one of degree in punishment for leaving.

    Your beliefs do not appear to come from a place of loving compassion that would befit a follower of Jesus – in fact, it’s blackmail: Accept this god-approved soulcrushing lifestyle or THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA GET YOU!

    PS: It’s puzzling how you would group Sharia law and “homosexual family values” (whatever those are) together, seeing as how under Sharia law, homosexuals are executed. Another thing extremist Muslims and extremist Christians have in common: a murderous hatred for gay people.

  • Paisley Rae

    I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family hearing my mother pray for “my spirit to be broken of its pride”.

    I left them at the age of 16 and am so grateful I managed to escape that kind of soul-crushing cruelty.

    Instead of being filled with any kind of light or love, the fundies I grew up around were angry, like you, Helen. Sad people who wished pain on others and delighted in suffering and misery. People who were unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions. People who were unwilling to make any effort toward attaining their goals. People who just watched life pass them by and wished things were different. People who lived in fear of everyone around them.

    Helen, the world is a beautiful place. Yes, the world can be a harsh place too. Sometimes, bad things are going to happen. But they happen at no greater pace without an angry god in your life. I find my life is so much more meaningful since I chose to think for myself and really see the world I live in. My mind is my own. I am responsible for my decisions and actions. I am happy.

    I encourage you to let go of your fear and hatred, Helen.

  • me

    wow! calm down! you need to get out of your head and take a good look at yourself… objectively.

  • dsatitra1


    Why do you say this, when you scream in your posts that you hate America because we have FREEDOM OF RELIGION HERE and you can’t force people to belong to the monstrous faith you do, helen. You should move to Saudi Arabia where they agree with you that people must follow a state religion.

  • Matt

    Thank you for sticking up for the truth! In a perfect world I would marry you.

  • Chxlive

    I realize you’re no doubt long gone, and, at any rate, I risk repeating myself, but just to set the record straight:

    Oh barf.

  • Gal5:1

    Thank you, Vyckie. I believe you have accurate definitions and explanations of those terms, as I have known them.

    As someone coming out of the QF/P movement, I really appreciate this website and the stories of other women.

  • Sierra

    Anyone else enjoying the irony of this?


  • Karebear

    I feel like there is a lot of hate in this “Christian” comment site. We should be reaching out in love.

    “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”

    Let’s try to remember these words when talking to each other.

    Yes, there are cultic like families that are a part of the quiverfull movement. There are also loving, sound families that are a part of it. Satan can stick his ugly foot in any Christian family or any Christian movement for that matter, and corrupt it. I try to remember not to make such large generalities about any group – Muslims, Christians or any faith/ group of people.

    To these two comments:

    “Those of us who grew up with no voice and no personal worth really DO appreciate what Vyckie is doing by having this website and blog.”
    “How is this core belief – women’s highest (and ONLY truly godly) calling being child birth and submission to her husband – different from the one Quiverful teaches? The only difference I can see is one of degree in punishment for leaving.”

    I hope that you two understand that the groups/husbands that you were with were not practicing a Godly lifestyle. The bible does call women to be submissive to their husbands but it also calls men to love their wives (See Eph quote below). And, the bible defines love as, not self-seeking, protective, kind ext. (See the quote from 1 Cor above)

    22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
    25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31″For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
    This does not say to bow down and worship your husband, it says to submit and respect him. It also says that the husband is submitting to the Lord, if he is doing this, the woman is not going to feel trampled on or feel as though they have no value, and they certainly won’t be punishing their wives. 1 Peter 3:7, says to honor your wife. A woman is not just a piece of property that sits by and waits for the husband to say, “jump.”
    Proverbs 31:10–31, presents the outright model for a woman, the wife of a noble character. She is worth more than rubies, bringing good to her husband, and caring for her family. She provides for the poor and needy. She does a little business on the side, making and selling garments, supplying merchants, considering a field to buy, planting a vineyard from her earnings. She is industrious, never idle, full of dignity, respected and praised by her husband and children. She speaks with wisdom and instruction, and we are admonished to give her the reward she has earned.
    This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh She shall be called ‘woman’ for she was taken out of man. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh. (Genesis 2:23, 24, NIV).

    In other words, Eve was Adam’s wife, part of him, equal to him, not an animal, sexually bonded to him in a monogamous relationship.
    (Taken from http://www.loveofchrist.info/church/woman.html)

  • Sierra

    Karebear – what do you suggest women do whose husbands are not living up to their side of the bargain? Does your quiverfull allow for divorce? Separation? Remarriage? Or is the answer to “just keep submitting” until death or transformation?

  • Interested Husband/Father


    I’m saddened to read that you would turn your back on Christ, and lead your 7 children to do the same (at least by example).

    Obviously, I don’t know the details of the ‘extremism’ you felt you were a part of. Maybe you were shortchanged, and did not get a truly Christ-honoring husband. Few men in this country know how to act like real men, and its only getting worse.

    But I will say this; turning your back on Christ is rebellion Vyckie. And the rebellious are eternally separated from Christ – in a very real place called hell – and then the lake of fire.

    I pray that you and your children don’t end up there – after spending a life here ‘having a blast’, blogging, winning awards, etc. All of that stuff is going to burn. I’ve wasted chunks of my life on similar pursuits, so know that in my pointing out of these things, three of my fingers are pointing back at me…

    Like it or not, Satan does hate your guts – he hates your children – and has clouded your [once?] love for Christ – using the events of your life to condition you to bring you where you are today.

    You will probably write me off as one of the men that you despise from your memories – that’s ok. I’m not posting here for any other reason than I care for the souls in the Garrison family.

    I’m not a pastor, just a brother praying a sister returns to Christ before its too late.

    “…because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” Rom 1:21

    Has your heart become darkened to hearing God?

    You have 7 beautiful, hopefully healthy children. Who gave them to you?

    It seems futile to publicly renounce the God of the Universe, to get 70,000 (or any #) hits on a blog.

    Are you done thumbing your nose at the Lord?

    Is your soul worn out yet?

    Someday, your knee will bow, and my knee will bow. Wheat or chaff – that’s the question.

    I pray for the restoration of your relationship with Christ.


  • http://www.youtube.com/user/angieantitheist Angie the Anti-Theist

    Satan is the boogie man for adults who can’t take responsibility for their lives. Grow up and quit threatening Vyckie with hell. She knows all about your scriptures and your bloodthirsty god.

    She did the best thing for them by taking them away from an abusive father, an abusive doctrine, and into the freedom to think, and choose for themselves. A level of grace Christians of your ilk, sir, never bestow on their children. No, no. You hoard them as YOUR treasures, never giving them the love and trust to be ADULTS!

  • http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com Anon

    You don’t make a convincing counter-argument.

  • Rachele Powell


    Children are not adults. We do have a responsibility to train them into that role and some do better then others.

    For the record I am a Christian, and I don’t agree with the FQ movement. For the record also God is not blood thirsty, man is!! Man wants to please God by doing all these acts that will make them more “holy”. The only act it takes to please God is to believe on His Son. The Holy Spirit will do the rest. That is was man forgets….the Father sent the Holy Spirit to teach us and man forgets over and over again he is not the Holy Spirit.

    Ok I know you think I am babbling, please don’t think all Christians are like Bill. I do agree with a comment that someone else made though and that is generalizations can be very dangerous.


  • Chxlive

    “That is was man forgets….the Father sent the Holy Spirit to teach us and man forgets over and over again he is not the Holy Spirit.”
    Yeah, well, that may be, but no two people can agree on what *exactly* the “Holy Spirit” is attempting to teach anyone. And there are far too many women who kill or maim their own children, fully convinced that God wanted them to. Or perhaps it was the Holy Spirit speaking to them. Who knows?
    I dunno, it seems Christianity is all about who’s going to possess you – either the Holy Spirit or Satan. Why can’t people think for themselves?? Why can’t Christians take responsibility for themselves, for good or for ill, instead of constantly blaming it on/attributing it to entities that can’t even be seen? If you want a grilled cheese sandwich, will you get it faster if you pray for it in Jesus’ name or if you make it for yourself? *Food* for thought O_O

  • Jeff

    Angie, allow me to help here. If there is no God (per your screen name) then there is nothing wrong with being an abusive father. Sure, your personal subjective opinion might deem things wrong. But, on the objective level, you really can’t claim that something is absolutly wrong, because in a world with no God, there is no objective standard. Now, of course, YOU can’t live that way and hence, you claim objective standards. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument and your comments above betray you screen name of ‘anti-theist.’ Oh, btw, if you and an atheist-materialist, there is also no such thing as love. Why, because love is abstract and atheism believes only in material things. Hence, love is reduced to electro-chemical reactions in the brain (there is no ‘mind’ because that is immaterial as well) via internal and external stimuli. Please try to live according to your presuppositions and see how far it takes you…which won’t be far at all. Jesus is Lord!

  • Lady Lelouch

    There is everything wrong with abusing the very people who you’re supposed to love and protect. Regaurdless (sp?)if your god exists or not.

    “Why, because love is abstract and atheism believes only in material things.”

    Wrong. atheists don’t believe in a god.

  • Tess

    What a disgusting, arbitrary, bias statement you make against Angie..but you know what, it’s typical. Your beliefs are contradicted by your snared tongue. It provides a backdrop of certainty against a knowledge of ‘god’, because of the hypocritical garbage you attain from what you believe or think you know because someone told you. It’s bias and cynical and lacks knowledge. Look at your own words again and tell again of your human nature.

  • http://angieantitheist.wordpress.com Angie the Anti-Theist

    If there is no God (as I believe) then there is STILL absolutely something wrong with abusing someone. Do you know what that is? ABUSE IS WRONG. I don’t need to believe I’ll burn in hell if I do something bad to choose to do good. I’m a good person. So is my son. So is Vyckie.

  • LiberalJesus

    So, let me get this straight… if it wasn’t for your fear of hell and punishment you would be abusing your children?

    Well, that’s completely disturbing. I hope we never meet.

  • Matt

    “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.”

    Even evil people give good gifts to their children. That doesn’t save them from everlasting death, to everlasting life. Faith is the victory!

  • LiberalJesus

    Also, this is some bigoted crap. Atheists can believe in love, souls, magic, whatever they want. They just don’t believe in a god. They varry a lot. As you can see from my screenname, I’m actually Jewish, but I’m not a dick. Atheists make up the smallest population in our prision system while Christians the largest. Food for thought, fundie

  • Chxlive

    “Angie, allow me to help here. If there is no God (per your screen name) then there is nothing wrong with being an abusive father.”

    So what you’re saying here, Jeff, is that, if you weren’t afraid of someone bigger than you (i.e., God) giving you a big whack, you’d see *nothing wrong* with being an abusive father. You can’t figure out how to treat others well unless someone bigger than you *orders* you to? Nice commentary on your (lack of) moral compass and abundant dickishness.

    And Christians say atheists have no morals???

  • Sierra

    “You have 7 beautiful, hopefully healthy children. Who gave them to you?”

    Spoken like a true patriarch. Possible answers include:

    A. She gave birth to them herself. That’s hard work. She didn’t sit on her front porch waiting for babies from UPS or the stork. Assuming that anyone “gave” her children is really rather insulting.

    B. No one, because one’s children do not belong to oneself. They are individuals who cannot be owned.

  • Michelle

    “You have 7 beautiful, hopefully healthy children. Who gave them to you?”

    Let’s see, it starts with an egg and a sperm that “hook up” together and thus begins fertilization. So both the man and the woman are contributing to the first part of the process of creating children in a separate but equal way.

  • LiberalJesus

    God gives Children to believers. That’s why atheists can’t have children… wait…

  • Rachele Powell


    You sound like our EX- pastor. Pitiful.

  • http://www.volny.cz/tprentis =8)-DX

    Re: “But I will say this; turning your back on Christ is rebellion Vyckie. And the rebellious are eternally separated from Christ – in a very real place called hell – and then the lake of fire.”

    This reminds me of one of the worlds most famous rebels – Jesus of Nazareth.

  • Helen Gallagher

    Submission is nothing but slavery.

  • dsatitra1

    Bill, no knee will bow to your faith. That should be obvious to you by the amount of cars that pass your house of scare the masses on Sundays.

    As for my hopes for you; I hope one day you are strong enough to lose the crutch that you want everyone to need.

  • Aria

    “Refusal of government assistance sometimes means that these families go without medical insurance ~ a situation which can influence the parents to choose “natural remedies,” home birth, and similar non-medical approaches to family health.”

    Please understand that not everyone with insurance wants to give birth in a hospital. I had insurance when my daughter was born, and I fought the insurance company to cover my midwife for my homebirth. I could have had that “desirable” c-section, no problem. It took months of fighting and my fiance’s employer’s HR department having to get involved to get the insurance company to pay for a midwife. Also many of us natural-parenting parents choose to attempt holistic remedies first before seeking chemical and western medicine.

    The problem is when a woman CAN’T get prenatal care, or a medical problem actually needs a doctor’s help, but neither can be sought because of lack of insurance and a refusal to accept government help.

    (No, I’m not a Quiverfuller, and sought fertility treatment to get pregnant, and I’m not married yet. So I think Quiverfullers would think I’m full of sin and the problem with this world.)

  • Crispy Fried Heathen

    Aria-Star – you’re the herpes of the internet, you get everywhere. Nobody cares about your idiotic views on anything. Go back to your little sewing room with your baby doll, and get Cody to fetch your pills.

  • Mary

    That 6-letter F-word is banned in my household.

  • Erika

    @Dr. Lanlais: This woman, by referencing no more quiverfull in the website name, page titles, etc, has made it clear she is only targeting the movement. From what I’ve read so far, she doesn’t attack large families in general, just the strains the extreme religious ideology put on those families, and those women to have families. She also criticizes how people hide behind homeschooling in those groups. i personally share similar feelings and would much prefer to homeschool my children (when I have them) for what I imagine are almost the same reasons as what you described. However, in this movement, it’s not the same.

    Secondly, she’s not just coming out and bashing. She’s been there, done that, and is describing the harmful effects it had on her and her children.


    Nice scare tactics. You’ve stricken fear in my heart and I tremble at your words. I hope sarcasm reads over the computer. Seriously, get a grip.Yes, it’s horrible in that part of the world.We all know this. No one has disputed you there. However, this site is discussing a Christian “denomination” that oppresses women here in the west. I’m sure the things your described, men in this movement have done, or the women at least feel raped, abused, etc. Maybe not all, but a portion at least.

    Oh and um, before you attack my intelligence Helen, keep in mind I speak 3 other languages, besides English. So I do have the brain power to speak something else, and following your logic, I also have the brain power to critique and comment on what I’m reading

  • Katlyn

    I found this article very interesting! I will first start off and state that I am a nondenominational christian and in the same sentence I will state that any type of extremism cant be good. Number one commandment according to Jesus Christ was to love your neighbor as your own self. No man would force himself into “slavery” to do whatever the other person asks and stay in the kitchen. And a woman would never force herself onto others saying she is better than than a man and of children. Forcing anyone into a little box isnt what God wanted, he created us all DIFFERENT for a reason.
    “You cant paint a masterpiece with only one color.”
    I think I am the gray area between the quiverfull and leaving the faith. I follow no man but Jesus Christ. Yes, he gave me a husband but I am to obey Christ first and foremost. I have a strong personality and if my husband told me to stay barefoot in the kitchen I would laugh. Did Rahab stand by and let the men do whatever they wanted? Heck no! She stood her ground and risked her life to rescue the two men. She did what she believed was right. What about Mary? Did she cower and hide when they found out she was a teen mother out of wedlock? Nope! She stood strong and stood up for what she believed in. My favorite was Ruth. She was an outcast in the wrong society and didnt have a “religious” upbringing. They thought of her as less than a human and cursed because her husband died. She didnt give up! She stood by her mother in law and stood for what was right. Through strength she found the man named Boaz and together they lead their household.
    God didnt create women to be weak and less than a man. He pulled woman out of mans side, not his foot to be walked on, not his head to above him, but from his side to stand next to and be equal.

    I liked this article though because too many Christian families get wrapped up in the technicalities of what to say, what to wear, how to act that they forget the whole purpose is to draw closer to God. Thank you for this article. :)

  • Karen

    great words! that’s exactly how i see it. i hate how patriarchy-types will take ruth and make her into a model of ‘submissive’ womanhood….haha, as if! what good submissive woman proposes to her man?

    i did a lot of study on the meaning of the word ‘ezer’ (helpmeet) this spring….turns out, that word has mostly military connotations and is used to describe one army coming to the assistance of another. hardly any weakness here!

  • LiberalJesus

    ::Slow Clap:: Nice that someone’s head is on straight out here.

  • Simone

    I am a proud Australian who just tonight watched Sunday Night and Heard Vyckie’s story. As a mother myself I commend you, our children need a parent to protect them when the other one fails.
    I also spent 17 years of my life in the Christian faith. I do not believe in Christianity as godly I believe it to be an organized religion. I believe in God and love Him wholeheartedly. Nothing in this world could make me turn my back on Him. But I will never step a foot inside an organization that claim they love God. Many, many ppl use God or Jesus’ name to pursue their own sick desire’s.
    Helen, you really do need help. You call yourself a Christian yet you condemn ppl who will not conform to your beliefs. Also I do believe God would frown upon the comment “faggots”. Does God not say to accept them and not their actions? You are persecuting ppl who choose to live their life the way they choose. How are you any better then Paul when he persecuted the Christians? God is a god of love remember that nxt time you use His name!!
    It comes down to the fact that a very brave woman is trying to warn others of a dangerous cult. You can believe or not but this is her story to tell not yours. No one except Vyckie has the right to condemn what she went through. As a woman I am disgraced that other women would accept this cult as a way of life…… I think it’s time that those women started to believe in themselves! Only true happiness within can give you the fulfillment that a cult will never deliver. Whether it be Quiverful or Children of God, any cult that uses women or children to make men into god’s needs to be taken down. Always remember the very first commandment…… There is only one God and Man is not it!!!!

  • Kristy

    Saul persecuted Christians. Homosexuals committing homosexual acts cannot be Christians.. God has allowed them to become committed to their evil nature, and their heart hardened because they chose not to listen to them. For we all have sinned, and not one of us is good in God’s eyes, but through Christ’s blood we can be redeemed.

  • Chxlive

    Kristy: One of the problems most young people – Christian and not – have with Christianity is that it appears that Christians overwhelmingly have chosen homosexuality as the WORST POSSIBLE SIN. The unforgivable sin, in effect, as you say yourself. But in the New Testament, all sins are the same! It doesn’t matter if you take a paperclip home from the office (stealing) or if you are a child kidnapper rapist cannibal serial killer. There’s simply no hierarchy of “sin”. “Hell” is not there to punish “sin”, but, rather, to punish people who “sin”! Either Jesus died for *ALL* sin and all who sin, or he didn’t – what’s it going to be?

    And so what if a homosexual couple love each other, marry, and have regular, satisfying sexual relations in whatever way they choose? If they are Christian, God will forgive them – that was the whole purpose of Jesus’s atoning sacrifice, wasn’t it? It wasn’t just for *some* sins. It wasn’t just for “the sins I myself am not tempted to commit”. And we all know Christians continue to sin throughout their lives – just *try* to tell me you don’t! 😀

    “Homosexuals committing homosexual acts cannot be Christians.. ”

    Thing is, you think that YOUR sins will all be forgiven – bar none! No matter what you do, there is *nothing* so bad as to separate you from your lord and savior. So how can you be such a hypocrite as to say it’s different for a homosexual? WHO are YOU to dictate to God whom he can – and CAN’T – adopt as His children? Does God ask your permission? Remember Matthew 7:1-5 (below)

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

    You’ve got an eye-plank of epic proportions! I can see it from here!! Didn’t God make us all and script our lives before we were even conceived?

    Psalm 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

    Either you believe in God’s plan and embrace His sovereign majesty, or you are in deep rebellion against God, fancying yourself qualified AND authorized to order the Creator and Master of the Universe around. Which is it?

    Finally, please remember that “sin” in Christianity ONLY applies to Christians. Perhaps you’ve never thought of it that way before. When you eat bacon or ham, does it concern you that that’s a “sin” in Judaism? Do you avoid beef because that’s a “sin” for a Hindu? Or do you leave people of other religions to worry about their religions’ requirements? Do you *care* whether Jews, Hindus, or any other religions think YOU are “sinful”? *FOOD* for thought O_O

  • Sarah

    Why does everyone leave out God’s destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in these sodomy discussions? Or Romans 1? or how when we acknowledge our sin before God and accept His gift of salvation it is an act of repentance – turning AWAY from our sin? The fruits of the Spirit manifested in our lives and our desire to follow God’s way are indications we are saved. The process is called sanctification – not perfection. I do not argue that a sodomite cannot get saved; however, they will recognize their former lifestyle as wicked and desire to please God from the moment they accept God as their Savior. Sodomy obviously does not please God since He destroyed two towns because of their refusal to cease that lifestyle. In Romans 1, it is clearly taught that those who refuse to turn from sodomy are finally turned over to their own “sodom and gomorrah” as God allows personal destruction (where do STDs run rampant??? in the sodomite community!) to take place.
    God created two perfectly fitting puzzle pieces to go together – man and woman. Only we dumb, sad humans think we can make it work any other way. I don’t see any animals trying it out opposite of how they were created!!!

  • Nea

    I don’t see any animals trying it out opposite of how they were created!!!

    Do more research. You may want to start with googling the phrase “Tango Makes Three,” which chronicles the two male penguins that not only pair bonded but raised a chick together.

  • salwa

    hi there. i was just reading through these comments and was sitting here in shock as to the hatred that people were sending out. i am muslim and i know that islam doesnt teach hate, it teaches love and respect to others even though they are not the same race, religion etc. Women are treated as equal as men, nobody is better then any other.

  • Monique aust

    @ Salwa, you must admit surely that some of the “Fundamentalist” Muslim beliefs are v. much the same as some of the “Fundamentalist” Christian/ Born Again/ QF beliefs.
    All preach hate, judgement and Lies under the guise of God in whatever form they believe him to be.
    Islam may indeed be all that you say it is- for you, just as Christianity is all that for me :)

  • Crispy Fried Heathen

    And the same goes for fundamental strains of Judaism.

    According to them non-Jews only exist to serve as slaves once their messiah has come, and do not have souls. They have a parallel legal system that punishes women for not dressing modestly enough, yet lets child molesters roam free. It is essentially the same thing as Sharia. They also have up to 20 children, and the men do not work and only take welfare. Women are not allowed to vote, to make decisions, and even need to send their underwear to be inspected to make sure they are ‘pure’. A man may not even pass anything to his wife (even their baby!) if she is ‘impure’.

    Funny how the same people that scream and rant about how evil muslims force women into submission, and claim muslims want to enslave everyone, give fundamental jews a free pass.

    The failedmessiah.com website is the Jewish version of this site.

  • Chxlive

    “the men do not work and only take welfare”

    Perhaps you were not aware, Crispy, but AFDC (aka “welfare”) is “Aid to Families with Dependent Children.” It supports *children* whose mothers are unemployed. Payments are *not* made to men.

    And contrary to myth, families receiving welfare benefits do not typically have more children than families not receiving benefits; the states that offer generous benefits do not see families receiving benefits have more children than the benefit-receiving families in the states that offer lower levels of benefits. Furthermore, families that are not receiving welfare benefits get WAY more of a financial benefit for each additional child than the families receiving welfare benefits do. This comes in the form of an additional child exemption ($3,700), and the child tax credit of $1000 per child! THEN there’s the Earned Income Tax Credit! Unless you are earning an income, you don’t get to claim them. The additional amount a family on welfare gets for an additional child is a whopping $90/month – total.

    Since you appear to have your perceptions of financial aid rooted firmly in a rather meanspirited set of myths, I see no reason to take anything you say seriously. If you were to only ask, you would find out that the people who are against women being oppressed are against ALL women being oppressed. Regardless of the religious system responsible. I see no advantage for the brutalized Quiverfull woman suffering under patriarchal tyranny vs. the Muslim woman who can’t go out of the house without a male relative escort vs. fundamental strains of Judaism and everything else.

    You may not realize it, but Judaism holds that a wife can call her husband at work and ask him to come home to have sex with her, and his employer is supposed to let him leave for that! An observant orthodox Israeli Jew told me that a few years back :}

  • Anonymous

    I think you missed the commentor’s point: that Christianity and Islam are not alone in having small minorities of extreme fundamentalists who have warped the religious traditions. You may not be aware of it, but a very small portion of Orthodox Jews belong to sects that are as misogynistic and dogmatic as the Quiverfull or Taliban (one main difference is that the Jewish sects do not try to impose their beliefs on the rest of society.)

    Although the language used was inflammatory, the commentor was not trying to paint all families on public assistance with the same ugly brush. He was referring specifically to some of the practices of the extremist Jewish groups. Again, it is only a tiny portion of Jews who subscribe to those beliefs, just as only a tiny portion of Christians live a Quiverfull lifestyle.

    And yes, there are many female-empowering teachings in Judaism, which is also true for Islam and Christianity – for those that wish to hear them. But each of these religions also has some adherents who use religious texts to justify an extremist patriarchal culture.

  • Rev. Rachel

    FYI: Regarding denominations represented in the Quiverfull movement, you indicated the Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ. While the Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ share a common heritage, they split long ago over issues of interpretation of scripture and are very from from each other now. I am an ordained minister in the Disciples Church. That, in and of itself, should give you an indication of my denomination’s view of women. While our denomination has churches and members across the liberal-conservative continuum, we could hardly be called a “fundamentalist” denomination. We ordain women (or General Minister and President is a women). We ordain openly gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender persons. In all of the churches I have served, I have not had a single family who homeschooled their children, and in most families, both adults work outside the home.

    I do have cousins who have become involved in the Quiverfull movement, which is what led me to your site. I am thankful that you are here, and as I continue to be a resource for my family (and to model a different form of womanhood to my girl cousins), I suspect I will reference your site many times.

    But I ask you, please amend your list of denominations represented. The Church or Christ and the Disciples of Christ are NOT synonymous. Thank you.

  • lynnie

    Our family IS most of the points you mentioned, but are not patriarchal, sequestered, or cultish in any form.

    Each of our choices was an independent decision of the other. We first began to homeschool mostly because we were in an inferior and substandard school system.

    We moved to the country, because we wanted chickens!! :-)

    We havve a lot of kids, because, gosh darn it, we like ’em!!

    I am a wife submitter, because I am a christian, and it is clear the bible teaches it. But, I am married to a wise, spiritual, undertstanding and kind man, so that made it easy on me, because I can be rash, harsh and immature, so he being the leader makes a whole lot more sense in a lot of ways.

    I even run my own business from our home!!!! But that’s becasue it is so small yet that I can’t afford to rent/buy a building and I would never put my kids in day care (sohelp me goodness).

    We even homechurch. That happened because some folks chose to be very devisive and took enough people out of our church, it lowered our attendance and we had no choice but to go to a smaller facility (i.e.: home) That would never have happened, honestly, if these people had Christ as their authority to begin with and weren’t trying to get their own way about things.

    So, yes, we do all those things, but we aren’t patriarchal or quiverfull or any of the other things you mentioned. Each and every one of those decisions made sense to us for various reasons. I guess if you read a book, and chose to do those things by checking off a list, then you could be labeled as you have chosen, but I have not read any books, been to any of those website you mentioned, or even know anyone in those organizations. We just are who we are. And happy too!

  • Karen

    Believing that the Bible teaches Christian wives to submit = patriarchal.

  • LiberalJesus

    Thank god you didn’t want to be anything other than a wife, mother and very small business runner. Other women cannot or do not want to do what you do. They are not evil for it. Or against god. That’s where the problem comes in. You are free to have your family and be happy (seriously, congrats on it) but the issue with QF is that it becomes instill and promoted as the only way to be a good person. Forget women as doctors, lawyers or anything that requires time (ie not being pregnant) as well as married/not celibate. It’s just sad that women are being manipulated away from choice. I’m glad you made a choice that worked well for you and no one is going to say that you shouldn’t have all the babies (and chickens) you want, but we need to allow your daughters and others to choose to do the same or not without threats and ridicule.

  • Lauren

    You’re not patriarchal, you just believe that the man is the head of the family and women should submit unilaterally.

    This is a blatant contradiction, which I find a bit concerning. It could be that you’re intentionally lying, but you’d have to be quite dense to give yourself away that badly. I see two other possibilities:

    a) you don’t understand the term. In this case, in the future, you might want to consider looking up anything in the post you found confusing before commenting, just so your comment can be fully informed.

    b) you know what the term means, and if you thought about it would know it applies to you, but you have seen indications that it is a bad thing, and are in denial about the idea that you could be part of it. This is worrisome to me because once one starts denying reality on one front, it can get to be a habit. If I realised I was lying to myself about this, my next thought would be to wonder what else I was lying to myself about.

    Even more worrisome to me is this quote:

    “That would never have happened, honestly, if these people had Christ as their authority to begin with and weren’t trying to get their own way about things.”

    The self-righteousness and arrogance displayed in this comment are a huge red flag to me that someone has gone seriously off the road. Being Christian is hard – what is expected of us, and how we implement that in our daily lives are complicated, long debated questions, and I find it very hard to believe that any human knows the mind of God perfectly. When you insist that the people who left your church obviously “didn’t have Christ as their authority” and just “wanted their own way” I wonder if you’re trying to follow God, or just pretending that God is following you. Were they really the only ones who demanded their own way? If you were perfectly accepting of their opinion and focused on creating peace within the Body of Christ, why did they have to leave? I’m not saying splits in the church don’t happen with good intentions and good faith on all sides, but as I said, the smug, self-righteous vibes in that quote are really a red flag for me.

  • James H.

    I wish there were a God to wipe your kind from the face of the planet.

    I was homeschooled and it should be outlawed for the kinds of incompetence, lies, deception, and abuse it opens children to.

  • Tanya

    You really think homeschool should be outlawed? What about those of us who do it well and who’s children choose it? What about the abuse, misplacement and general damage that comes from institutional schooling? In an abusive home, nothing works. Not homeschool, not institutional. I’m sorry you were hurt, but homeschooling isn’t to blame.

    Thank you for this website. I’m so blessed to have a Christian husband to parent with. We see eye to eye on most things but both respect each others passions in decision making. Jesus would not recognize a man as his follower who looked down upon women, who didn’t cherish and love and adore his family. Jesus also wouldn’t recognize a people as his who are filled with hate and judgment, for any reason. We may discern, only God may judge.

    I’m so sorry for all of you who endured abuse. My deepest prayers go out to you. And yes, you should always walk away from abuse. Do whatever it takes to show your children the true nature of Christ. Love. WWJD?

  • jojo

    My favorite line:

    “What about those of us who do it well and who’s children choose it?”

    “Who’s” means “who is” or “who has”. It’s “whose” that you want. Doing it well????

    Thanks also for telling me who Jesus recognizes! I bet He appreciated that!

  • Helen Gallagher

    Perhaps it should be regulated rather than banned?

  • Matt

    Yes, God will judge. But on what grounds will he judge the unsaved?
    “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

  • Matt

    “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”

    “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”

    Faith in the Son Jesus Christ is the victory over death! Those without faith will perish, to nevermore exist, in the lake of fire.

  • Tess

    Just want you to know..I hear you. :)

  • Thaag

    It all depends really upon the quality of the person administering the homeschooling and the curriculum they use. I have a friend who is a Witch who home-schooled her two boys (due to institutional discrimination against non-Christians in the rural Alabama location they were at). She chose a very good, thorough educational plan which did not indoctrinate or give bad information. She would spend her last week of the summer making out the learning plans for each day, bought art and science kits for their labs, and they had all sorts of group activities with other homeschooled kids in the area like field trips, band practice, etc. The boys are smart and although a bit geeky, they’re just fine.

    I feel bad that you were short-changed in your homeschooling. To me it sounds like you got the bad side of the coin. I can tell you from observation that it’s not always like what you got. It all has to do with how much the parents really wish their children to be properly educated and not “indoctrinated” and how much time and effort *and money* (the good stuff ain’t cheap) they are willing to invest.

  • logicfail

    Mine is among the many thank yous. Thank you for putting this blog together and slogging through a lot of opposition so those of us who’ve felt alone can reach out.

    I grew up in a home of (thankfully) 4 children. Do to complications, my mother had a hysterectomy after the last of us was born. But we started into the same mentality as the QF movement and our family was friends with mostly QF families. We homeschooled, we were members of ATI and IBLP, attended a home church, and I hated that life.
    I began my career in the arts in my tweens, and had to constantly defend the beliefs that I didn’t hold. I didn’t want to appear weak or forced, so I was extremely well read and knew all the right things to say because I wanted to believe. I sincerely wanted it to be as simple as believing. But it wasn’t.
    As a child, I was repeatedly sexually assaulted by an extended family member. Instead of seeking real help or EVER talking to me about it, my torn mind and ruined childhood were ignored. I was a sexual being and was continually punished for my curiosity. Much of this was due to their desire for me to be a godly young woman, when I had so many things unresolved that it couldn’t happen. I acted the part when I could, but my heart was never fully in it because I was so angry all the time.
    None of this was ever talked about. I was sent away to training conferences and sent to christian counselling where it was all accusations and telling me to confess my sins and come back to Christ.
    I do believe my family wanted the best for me. Both of my parents came from nonChristian homes that were very messed up. They wanted to create this perfect, beautiful family, but they had broken pieces. My family got out of those movements when I was about 17, but by then, the damage had been done. I then got engaged to a man who’d had the same upbringing, but had left the church. Things were fine for about a year, but then some of the old teaching started showing up in his behaviour and what he wanted from me, even though we were sexually active. So I left him before we got married. I couldn’t handle someone else in my life who was a hypocrite and wanted me to change.
    All I wanted was to be able to trust someone who wasn’t going to get close to me and then tell me my ways were wrong and I needed to repent.
    My family is healing. My parents and I are on good terms, and they understand that they really messed up me. We are closer now than we’ve ever been, but it’s taken years and really wanting to be family again for us to come together.
    My beliefs now are mainly Buddhist, with a healthy dose of trying to understand unconditional love.
    Children are not fools. They take in so much and yet are more fragile than eggshells, so don’t walk all over them and what they need. Each is different and no manual can tell you what’s best. Know your children and talk to them about their hurts.

  • Matt

    You have my compassion. But I gathered from your post that your resentful attitude towards Christianity has its roots in at least three circumstances. 1) The sexual molestation, 2) The so-called “home church”, and 3) Being educated among nonbelivers that provoked you and made you feel like a freak.

    1) The sexual molestation seem to have awakened your sexual desires too early, and to an exaggerated degree. That’s common among sexually abused children. Also, this gave rise to a mistrust in Christianity (given that your relative professed to be a Christian). Whether or not the molestation triggered your lust too early, it is not well for such a natural desire as sexual needs to be quenched and deemed sinful. However, most of today’s children get their “education” about sex from pornography, and that is something that results in depraved conduct and a normalization of fornication. It’s better to be somewhat open about sexual matters within the family and that the parents encourage their children to focus their energy on pursuits that last and are helpful to a person when it has become an adult.

    2) Home church is not biblical, and may have stifled your zest for life, isolated you from peers, and hampered your social skills. Home is home. Church is church. Don’t fuse them as one.

    3) Being educated in a heathen school naturally will not strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. The unsaved will always persecute the believers and try to lead us down harmful paths.

    There seem to have been more of quenching of spirit than of joy and fun in your upbringing.

    Personally, I have struggles with my faith and must always be reminded of the times the power of God showed up to prove his existance. I mean, I have had clear and direct proof of 1) the power of then name of our Lord and Savior, and 2) the power of the Bible. Unclean spirits have been cast out, the Bible has caused possession in atheists. Yet, even though I have this evidence, together with the compelling evidence of a very young earth and of a global flood, I must always have reinforcement constantly. Every day. What is the only thing, the one and only thing that makes me reject the Word of God sometimes? It is my conforming to the world. It is my desires to do that which I have seen in pornography, to sleep with many sluts. That is my battle in life. The normalization of fornication.

    I am with you, that every person is different. That’s God’s will. But oftentimes children become what they experience. So, it is a parent’s duty to shelter their children from certain things. Does a child love to dance? Don’t buy a stripping pole and a raunchy CD, but channel the child to less sensual dance styles. I believe in sheltering a child from the Internet, and from heathen cultures. The truth is, as you very well know, that pornography is just a few mouseclicks away. With good conscience, could you live with the uncertainty, that your child might have seen despicable things that cater to their natural desire to have sexual intercourse? We all know that pornography is of the devil, and that the sentiments that Hollywood instills are of the devil. No wonder Christ-rejecting Israelites-of-the-flesh own both of those industries. Christians are the spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Jacob hate us for that.

    I hope you turn from Buddhism and its empty promises and return to your Creator, God and Savior.


    /Christian for 7 years so far

  • jenny nixe

    Seriously, Matt, you are one creepy guy. I hope you are able to get past your pornography obsession soon. There is rehab for it.

    Somehow, I don’t think God would want any woman to put herself under the “protection” of someone whose professed desire is “to sleep with many sluts”. Those of us weak vessels who’ve dated (with or without fornication) are very familiar with this reasoning.

  • Thaag

    Rants like yours make me even more glad I became a Witch, what with the racism and sexism dripping from your post.

  • Chxlive

    Logic, you have my deepest sympathies. Congratulations on having the courage and sense of self to get out of it and to not succumb to the pressure. I’m terribly sorry about the sexual abuse and the conspiracy of silence to keep you from being heard. Growing up Christian, I caught on early that the most important thing was looking nice for church so that everyone would think my parents (especially my mother) were such good Christians. We children were to be perfect little accessories – or else we’d be beaten when we got home. Ah, the joys of growing up with an abusive, narcissistic, Christian mother! So naturally, nothing that wasn’t happy-happy-joy-joy could be allowed.

    I, too, gravitated toward Buddhism and found it enormously helpful – I hope you will as well. What I came to realize was that I wanted to respect my children as *persons* (something I had never experienced as a child). So I started treating them as if they were college students and I was their adviser/concierge/personal assistant. We homeschooled through a charter that provided our curriculum and offered classes if the children wished to take them – core and electives. My children liked being in the classroom environment, but homeschooling enabled me to keep a lid on homework and classtime – instead of spending 35 hrs/wk sitting in class, my kids spent 10. That left time for field trips and projects. That gave them time to be kids, to think and play and make stuff and figure out who they were. My son’s 8th grade year, he was taking Algebra for high school credit, in a class that met only twice per week for 3 hrs total. In the public schools, they’re meeting 5 days a week – 5 hours. I have 3 degrees and have always loved math, so I was able to help him with his homework and be a resource if he needed help understanding the concepts. When he decided to go to a small high school, when he took their placement test, he scored 100% on the Algebra sections. But his classmate whose family had 6 children bombed it. When she got home from class, she was expected to clean and cook and watch toddlers – her doing homework simply wasn’t a priority for her parents, who counted on her to raise their children. I consider that child abuse, frankly.
    So back to my parenting. I let my kids choose – from the time they were toddlers! They come to the store and help me pick out foods to make for meals; they choose what classes and electives they want; they choose their extra-curriculars (band for my daughter; golf team/football spring training/tennis lessons for my son); they choose their own clothes, decide their own bedtimes, and organize their own schedules. I take care of transportation and all the other details, but otherwise stay out of their way – I make it happen once they’ve chosen the direction. They don’t have any required chores, and they get money whenever they need it (no allowances). And guess what? They are both extremely conscientious students, making sure their assignments and class projects are always done ahead of time. Their teachers praise their performance, attitudes, character, and kindness. And the kids rarely spend money!
    This has been my approach since very early on. I tried to be more demanding academically with my son (my first), but it just made him really frustrated and resentful. So I apologized and told him I was going to trust him and his judgment. And I’m glad I did. My kids have never had bedtimes – they go to bed when they’re tired. They eat when they’re hungry, and they eat as much as they choose. I keep my opinions to myself as best I can. They’re both healthy and normal weight, BTW. My son (15) is now 6’3″!
    Too many people think that children are nasty little brutes who must be strictly ordered about or else they will turn into nasty BIG brutes. Well, I’ll tell you – cruel, strict, rule-driven parenting creates damaged children. Treat the children with the same respect you treat your adult friends, and you will find them rising to the occasion. And isn’t it all the more admirable when they do something because they *want* to rather than because they were *forced* to? I was sick with the flu for the last week, and my kids both pitched in to do dishes, fix meals, and tidy up the house – without being asked.
    My perspective is that it’s *MY* job to keep the house tidy. If I can’t keep up with it, they will see the results. If they value a tidy house (and they do), then they will be able to decide whether it’s worth it to them to help out. There’s really a lot of value in allowing kids to take the initiative for their own reasons. Kids are more wonderful and more incredible than these rule-obsessed, control-freak Christian parents will ever be able to appreciate, and that’s truly a shame. It makes my heart hurt to see parents with such hateful attitudes toward their own children that they *want* to hurt them, that they take such perverse joy in harming their own children that they brag about it (“I apply the board of education to the seat of understanding! Ha ha ha!”), and that they obviously have such a low opinion of their children’s character.
    Logic, I really appreciated your comments. You’ve got your head on straight. Give yourself a little time and introspection to figure things out more concretely, and remember, you more than anyone else in the entire universe deserve your love and compassion. Look for someone you can admire as a partner, someone who admires you back. And what I’ve learned, not just from my own experience, is that, when it’s a good fit, it’s *easy*. You enhance each other’s lives. There’s nothing wrong with premarital sex. It’s just more getting to know each other. The idea that you shouldn’t touch until there’s a wedding ceremony, and then you should get right down to making babies is just absurd. You’re an adult. It’s YOUR life. Live it however you choose.
    The sexual abuse wasn’t your fault. The way you reacted to it was normal and age-appropriate. YOU are normal – there is nothing strange or weird about you. Nothing anyone else does to you can change who you are. That relative was a creep, and it’s a shame he targeted you. But that’s just one of the things that contributed to making you the YOU you are, and having that experience will not only enable you to be more aware and thus protect your own children, but will enable you to relate to other girls and women who have likewise suffered sexual abuse. It’s a crime of epidemic proportions, and the world needs intelligent, articulate, courageous survivors like you who can help guide others out of that dark place.

  • Ali

    I discovered your site. I was raised in a progressive Christian household, and was NEVER taught to submit to any man. Let’s be honest, Paul had some issues with the ladies. Jesus preached to women equally.

    However, one of my close friends is being completely closed off and forced into a young marriage and lack of autonomy. I don’t know how to help her. I went to college and grad school and she got brainwashed into thinking by working and living by myself (and dating) I was a sinner. She doesn’t see how controlling her future husband is. I feel like I lost my childhood friend from school to this.

  • Matt

    I take it from your post that you are dead set on fornicating, although the Bible tells you not to do that.

    “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

    “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.”

    “This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.”

    You are mistaking voluntary submission with involuntary servitude. As a Christian lady you are commanded to be subject to your husband, it is asked of you to submit. It doesn’t say “men, oppress your woman to all costs!”. As a Christian woman who claims to believe in the Word of God, which is inspired/breathed by God, your Creator, is it alright for you to dismiss what that Word says?

    A woman surrenders to a man so easily when he takes charge. That is the danger of having a matriarch with a man in subjection. The woman indeed is the weaker vessel, tossed to and fro, giving in to whims, and judges things according to her motherly instinct. For instance, she would say sodomite couplings are lovely, because love is blind. A man who is not of God would say “I don’t care, to each their own”, but not mention love in the equation. A man of God would not even let a sodomite in under his roof or in the vincinity of his children!! Let me tell you something, love is not blind! Even infatuation is not blind. But infatuation and love are two different things. Love is a choice. Hate is a choice. I will hate the wicked and their deeds. Yes, hate. Furthermore, sodomites hate God, and infiltrate churches to spit in God’s face. You might say, “sodomites love each other, so what’s wrong with that”? I love my siblings, does that mean I have sexual relations with them?! I love men, as brothers. I love women, as sisters. But by God, there is only one person I take sexual pleasure in! Love is not sex. Learn it, woman.

    So, if you’re a Christian woman, your God that you supposedly love, tells you to submit and be in subject to your husband in every thing. Am I a jealous man? Every man of God should be jealous! Just as God is jealous, and wants us only to worship him.

    And why am I jealous? Because the woman is the weaker vessel, and evil men who have acknowledged this takes advantage, to defile you.

    “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

    I’m telling you, there’s a lot of weak vessels, silly women, out there, who ungodly men lie in wait for. Am I controlling for keeping my woman away from these evil men? Then so be it. Yes, I am in control, but I love my woman enough to grant her freedom of thought and expression. She is as intelligent as I am, but still the weaker vessel, due to her willingness to surrender and submit to a man who takes charge. Ask yourself, how many men adopt the interests and beliefs of their wives? None. How many women adopts the interests and beliefs of their husbands? They are in abundance. It is clear that a woman submits to a man who rules her, even to the point of abuse, I’m sad to say. Therefore a Christian man is told to love his woman as himself. What man would abuse himself? He may abuse drugs or alcohol but not himself.

  • Christina

    Matt you make my skin crawl….You are no Follower of Christ

  • Speaker

    “I love MY WOMAN enough to GRANT her freedom ”
    “woman who CLAIMS to believe in the Word of God…is it alright for you to dismiss what that Word says”

    You pretend that this is “volutary submission” and yet you attack and enforce at every turn, attempting with every keystroke to force these women into the “involuntary servitude” that you yourself admit is not of God. YOu deride and attack the women around you, calling them weak, faithless, silly and childish, and then make the laughable claim that you are incapable of abuse because you love others as yourself. You hold your wife in obvious contempt, even as you hypocritically extoll your own virtue in loving and “protecting” her. You twist the reality to fit your preconceptions, and thus imply that the man who said he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, needs you to lie for him.

    You are abusing those around you. You are trying to enforce slavery and servitude on those who should be free in Christ. You are lying, and worse trying to lay your lies at the feet of God. If, as I hope, you are not aware of this, then you are a fool. If you are aware, but are too weak, and too lacking in support and teaching to stop yourself, then you are to be pitied, but should still have the presence of mind not to pretend to instruct others. If you are aware and continue to act so of your own free intent, then you are a snake and a deciever, and have no place in the fellowship of believers.

  • Chxlive

    Oh barf.

    People like you, Matt, make me glad I’m not a Christian – and never will be.

  • Matt

    “And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.”
    “and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

    In the words of our Lord Jesus himself, in the garden of Eden!

  • Chxlive

    Oh, you just *love* that, don’t you, Matt? Guess what? There was no “jesus” in the garden of Eden! Or anywhere else, for that matter.

    What of THIS?

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Joel 2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
    Romans 3:22-23 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    As everyone knows, you can find scripture to support *any* position. Any at all! The fact that you like the misogynist position tells me everything I need to know about you. And, once again, I am *so* glad to NOT be a Christian! :)

  • Matt

    Of course, the equivalent to “dating” is playing the harlot, and be a whore. I once thought dating was a means to find a spouse, only to discover that it is uninhibited fornication!

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha

    I sometimes date. But I am still a virgin. I also work, and live alone. Your first assumption show that you don’t know anything about real life or real women, and sprout ridiculous ideas.

  • Chxlive

    “But I am still a virgin.”
    Retha, why do you think the state of your genitals is anyone’s business? Anyone at all? WHY would you advertise information about your genitalia – and to strangers?? Does the content of your genitalia determine your worth as a person, somehow?
    This is very strange. Is there no sense of privacy or decorum here? Does everyone have the right to lift up skirts and have a look-see? You know, to figure out who gets what label. To figure out who is virtuous and valuable, and who is a horrid, worthless, skank of a slut, of course O_O

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com Retha

    Nobody got the right to demand knowing this, and people don’t have to be interested in the topic either. But I could, from experience, deny a claim made here. (The claim that dating = uninhibited fornication.) No, it does not determine my worth.

    This is no different to a woman admitting to, say, a background of physical abuse on the internet – it enables them to speak with expertise on a certain topic, although they do not have to mention it if they do not want to.

  • Chxlive

    “Of course, the equivalent to “dating” is playing the harlot, and be a whore. I once thought dating was a means to find a spouse, only to discover that it is uninhibited fornication!”
    I’ll bet Matt thinks that a whore is a girl who has uninhibited fornication, and a slut is a girl who has uninhibited fornication with anybody but him! Jealous much, Matt?? LOL!!
    Geez, Matt, set your time machine for the Bronze Age and get on back home! Chop chop, now!

  • Chxlive

    Darn! I meant to say:

    I’ll bet Matt thinks that a whore is a girl who has uninhibited fornication with anybody, and a slut is a girl who has uninhibited fornication with anybody but him!

    Messed up my own funny! >:(

  • Chxlive

    “Jesus preached to women equally.”

    ‘Fraid not O_O
    Take a look:
    Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    No mention of “husband” ^
    Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
    Again, no mention of “husband” ^
    And let’s not forget how Jesus first *ignored*, then INSULTED the desperate foreign woman who sought his help for her disabled daughter! He refused to acknowledge her until his buddies complained that she was annoying them, and then he called her and her daughter “dogs” – to this day one of the worst insults in that part of the world. It wasn’t until she groveled and said, “Yes, you’re right – we’re dogs” that he told her everything was fixed. We’ll never know what she found when she got home, after all…if anything. Kind of looks like Jesus just liked to see people – women – squirm, frankly. Read it for yourself – Matthew 15:22-27.

  • Chxlive

    “However, one of my close friends is being completely closed off and forced into a young marriage and lack of autonomy. I don’t know how to help her. I went to college and grad school and she got brainwashed into thinking by working and living by myself (and dating) I was a sinner. She doesn’t see how controlling her future husband is. I feel like I lost my childhood friend from school to this.”

    You can’t fix her. She has to fix herself. Just be a supportive friend so that, if she feels the need to run, she has somewhere to run to. Her husband may well tell her to break off all contact with you; if she goes along with it, you simply have to let her go. My most recent best friend’s husband, when he got out of prison, insisted that she not socialize with us any more (because we’d helped her while he was in the lockup); she went along with it without a murmur, apparently. I heard from her 3 times in 2 years; one of those was to try to get me to help her with an online business she was trying to start, and another was when she asked me for money because her deadbeat husband was siphoning off all the money she made and they were behind on their bills. I told her 3.5 years ago that we did not want him around our property at all – when he would come over to pick up their daughter (it was always him), he’d often have some unsavory looking creep in the car with him. We never wanted to see him again, though we still loved her and her daughter. He was already locked up with we first met, you see, so seeing him in action was quite the eye opener. That was the end of our contact. I recently found out that he was arrested almost 3 years ago for his part in two notorious jewelry store armed robberies – their son wasn’t even a year old when he was committing his crimes. And he just got sentenced to 90 years to life. She hasn’t called me *once*. Some best friend, I guess *sigh*
    And I lost my best friend from high school to the Jehovah’s Witnesses who, as I’m sure you know, are not allowed to have “outsiders” for friends.
    Point: There’s nothing you can do. You must leave her free to live her own life. Otherwise, if you’re going to dictate what she should and shouldn’t do (for her own good), well, you aren’t really much different from her controlling husband at the end of the day. Love her. Support her. Never judge. Don’t ask questions. Just accept her for who she is. Be sympathetic but don’t attempt to fix her. Just let her know that you have confidence that she’ll figure it out, and that you stand ready to help no matter what – you’ll do whatever she needs you to do, on her request.

  • http://eowyns-heir.blogspot.com Christina

    Agree with many commenters who bemoan your generalization. But my real comment is on the sad state of grammar on the site! Your header says “no longer qivering” not quivering… and there are a lot of “it’s” when you mean “its.” This really doesn’t gain you any credibility points! :)

    –Christina– a Christian, home-schooling, cloth-diapering wife & mom who DOES believe in Biblical submission.. but is not part of the “quiver-full” movement nor the patriarchal “movement”

  • Allie

    Um, then you didn’t read the line right below the “No Longer Qivering” header, because right below that it says “There is no ‘you’ in quivering.” It’s a play on words.

  • LucrezaBorgia

    Biblical submission = patriarchy Does your home-school have a dictionary?

    patriarchy: A form of social organization in which a male is the family head and title is traced through the male line

  • Mariam

    Adopt children abandoned in an orphanage is better god shook happy band of selfish !!!!!

  • Trengo

    Shouldn’t normal adult relationships be devoid of submission? I see people mention “egualitarian” relationships as “mutual submission”. There is no submission of either part!

    I had no idea the horrors we see on TV as practiced in faraway savage “backwards” countries exist and are permitted in our midst. Does the constitution allow for marital slavery and rape? The authorities know these things exist and do nothing? I’m shocked!

    Thank you for “raising awareness”! Ignorance is the origin of all evil!

  • Jane

       /ˈpeɪtriˌɑrki/ [pey-tree-ahr-kee]
    –noun, plural -ies.
    a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father’s clan or tribe.
    a society, community, or country based on this social organization.

    Definition of SUBMISSION
    səb-ˈmi-shən sub·mis·sion

    : a legal agreement to submit to the decision of arbitrators b : an act of submitting something (as for consideration or inspection); also : something submitted (as a manuscript)
    : the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant
    : an act of submitting to the authority or control of another

    Here is my point:
    Under “biblical submission”, it is the wife that “submits” to the authority of her husband. Yet I have noticed a number of people on this site deny that they are part of the “patriarchal movement” while simultaneously stating that they fully accept and live by the idea of “biblical submission”. I’m sorry people but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…

  • http://www.thebuildingbrows.com Brandy Brow

    “I’m sorry people but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…”

    Heart motivation is everything. Something can look the same on the outside and be completely different because the intention is not the same.

    The act of submitting in itself is not wrong. True submission is purely self-willful, without coercion, done in goodness because a person wants to honor the other–no strings attached. If someone submits because they’re forced to, or terrorized into it, that’s totally different and wrong. It’s not submission at all. That’s slavery.

    One is done out of honor, the other out of fear, but they look the same outwardly. This is why God says He judges the intents of the heart–thank God.

  • Sierra

    “The act of submitting in itself is not wrong.”

    The act of equating submission with goodness, of framing womanhood as the state of constant submission, of treating submission as a sign of spiritual prowess, and of equating non-submission with “rebellion,” godlessness and failure as a wife is absolutely wrong.

    Either submission is completely voluntary and completely optional, and there are no repercussions to NOT submitting, or submission is mandatory and has the weight of a command from God, with non-submission bearing dangerous consequences.

    You can’t have it both ways. Don’t play dumb.

  • Isabella

    I am seriously disheartened by all the comments- chock full of grammatical, spelling and punctuation errors- from people who purport to homeschool.

  • http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com Phoenix Woman

    You noticed that too, eh?

  • D.G.

    We have six children and homeschool. I enjoy it very much. I am realizing from the many comments that no matter how you state your concerns there will be those that just do not understand. I am freed from that lifestyle, i.e., quiverfull, modesty, patriarchal (sp.?). All I can say is I am so very glad to be free and know there will be those that do not understand, become offended, don’t like generalizations, etc., etc. etc.

  • Barbara Brooks

    I have noticed that most American Christian movements with strict biblical standards end up being personality-destroying cults. However, I’ve found many conservative Mennonites to be kind, responsible people with large families and few or none of the excesses of the quiverful movement. While they value large families, if it’s too much for a woman, no one will condemn her for using birth control or choosing to adopt because she doesn’t like being pregnant. They are much more practical and level-headed than the groups I’ve seen on this site. The men use a lot of peer pressure to keep themselves in line and do not tolerate abusive behavior. Unlike the extreme homeschool groups, they would encourage mental health help if needed, and they truly help one another will medical expenses, and take care of one another. If you want the best of the quiverful lifestyle without the junk, I urge you to check out http://www.anabaptists.org church locator. You can save yourself a lot of grief by being part of a conservative Mennonite group rather than these goofy, imbalanced, extreme groups.

  • mojojojo
  • LiberalJesus

    Basically if a human is involved, there will be a problem. Dogma sucks.

  • sue

    Yes, there is no “you” in Quivering. But it’s not about “you”. It’s about HIM. Christ. And only Christ. Yes, there are many groups that distort the Word of God. And while you are trying to free women from situations that may become abusive and are distorting Scripture – you are inadvertently subscribing to the world’s view that everything is about “you”. What “you” want, what feels good to “you”. Guess what – it’s not about “you”.

    Our family has homeschooled for the past 8 years. We have 4 children. Our motivation is not to seclude our children from the world, but to prepare them to handle the world when they are mature enough. Children should learn from their parents, not from other children their same age. Why would you want your child of 9 to learn how to behave from other 9 year olds? We are involved in many groups outside the home, some within our church (CMA) and some secular groups. We do not disallow friendships with unsaved or unchurched people. But we do set limits that those children come to our home. The Lord called us to homeschool. We can tailor teaching to the needs of each child, accelerating when appropriate – or taking additional time when needed. Our kids are able to speak and interact with people of all ages. We are involved with a homeschool speech and debate group in which we travel for competition and meet dozens of other homeschool families. Some have one child, others have many children. Few are as “out there” as you make us out to be. We are normal people trying to follow the Lord’s will. And provide the best educational experience possible for our children. We know our children best. And we don’t need metal detectors in our halls..

    When I say “we” – I mean myself and my husband. We are a team. I make many decisions without him related to schooling. Most homeschoolers do not fall into the minority that you are describing here. The “quiver-fulls”. I know some who do, and disagree with their Biblical interpretation. They do not live in the world of Christ’s grace. All Christians should be praying for our brothers and sisters caught in this trap from Satan. However, simply because we choose to homeschool does not mean we are any more susceptible to this erroneous teaching.

    Finally – to those who are condemning the homeschool community for grammar and spelling errors. Perhaps some of those errors are related to quick typing in an attempt to post so we can get back to teaching our children. All four of our kids score above the 95th percentile on government standard testing. Either we are doing something really right – or public schools are doing something really wrong. Don’t condemn us. You have no idea what our days look like.

  • Sierra

    “Yes, there is no “you” in Quivering. But it’s not about “you”. It’s about HIM. Christ. And only Christ. Yes, there are many groups that distort the Word of God. And while you are trying to free women from situations that may become abusive and are distorting Scripture – you are inadvertently subscribing to the world’s view that everything is about “you”. What “you” want, what feels good to “you”. Guess what – it’s not about “you”.”

    No one said “everything” was about “you”. Try to stop the pendulum somewhere in the middle. The intrinsic problem with patriarchy is that it has NOTHING to do with Christ. It’s not about HIM at all. There is no “you” (the woman) but there most definitely is another “you” (the man). If it’s all about Christ, shouldn’t HE also have to forego some of his pleasures and desires? If it’s “all about Christ”, and yet the man still gets everything he wants, I suspect that you’ve confused who Christ actually is. Patriarchy is idolatry.

    If you think hollowing out a woman’s life until she is nothing but an obedient shell with no will or thoughts of her own is glorifying to God, then you are not worshiping Jesus.

  • Angie W.

    I am so so very sorry what you went through with your abusive husband. {{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}
    I can feel your pain in your words. He did not sound like a Christian or a godly man. I am sorry he tricked you and your children into being someone afraid to live. Abuser have that affect on the people whom they abuse.
    I think as parents, we need to really teach the bible to our children, and if you are in a church you need to read the bible for yourselves. Raise your children to be thinkers. Raise them to question why people do things, motives. Raise them to trust and know what is right, themselves. I want my child to do the right thing, even when I am not around, because it is right and pleases God. Not just because I said so. I want my children to follow what God tells them in HIS word not what man has made up to glorify himself.Many bad things happen when people follow people instead of following God.
    A truly godly man will,at least most of the time treat you better than he treats himself. He will treat you with respect because you are a part of him. The bible says a man should love his wife, like Christ loves the church. He gave himself up for her(us..the church).

    I recently heard about the QF movement. I found this site when GOOGLING to find out about it.
    I am glad you were able to get away from your abusive husband with your life, I have tried to help a few women from abusive relationships, married and not, one lost her life, she did not want to leave because the had 3 children together. (They were not in any kind of movement) …He was very domineering. When he would come home from work, if people were there, she had H*** to pay. She was not allowed friends.

    I wish there was a way to tell every abused woman out there, that YOU ARE LOVED!! God did not make us to live in fear of life. We all, men and women are important to HIM. I want to cyberhug the hurting and convey to them who they really are.

    I am going to work on this some, since my gears are rolling. I need to find out if there is literature espousing bad bible and send a few emails with what the truth really is. They may not listen to me, but I want them to at least think about it, really think about it.

    Blessings to You and Your family!

    Angie W.

  • Aimee

    I just want to point out that “Disciples of Christ,” i.e., the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) is NOT a fundamentalist denomination. It is a very liberal and inclusive, feminist and woman-supportive denomination. Women are ministers at every level, and there is no mention whatsoever in this denominations tenets of women serving their husbands or letting God plan their family or its size.


  • Ginger

    Agreed. My reverend was a lesbian. Great woman.

  • Elena

    At first, I read this out of pure interest, thinking, what led this person to write such a thing? She may have a point. I may not fully agree with it, but she may have a point. But by the time she said, oh, they have goals to be debt free, I thought, wow, well one less problem for America! Those are people that we will not have to borrow money from other countries as a result! And they have a lot of kids! And btw, over 35% of Americans don’t want children, and this is going to be a problem for those of us in our 20s and 30s if this trend continues, because who will be able to take care of us when we’re old?

  • Elena

    And no offense Vyckie, I feel really bad about all the things that have happened to you. I’m sure you love your kids so much and would like each and every one of them to exist even though you have gone through so much. But some women think this is the way to go. It’s too bad that you had to deal with such pain.

  • LiberalJesus

    There are SEVEN BILLION PEOPLE. Really think that’s not enough? There’s been an increase of 4 billion since the 60s. The enviromental impact alone is horrendous. But I’m glad you made this entirely about you and your money.

  • Sarah

    If you believe in a God that runs the universe, then He probably knows about each of those 7 billion souls that He gave life to and that they live on the planet He created called Earth. I think He’s probably got it ALL under control. Breathe! Relax!

  • James M

    Thank you for pointing out this insane movment

  • Leon Bowsky

    I hope it is not too inappropriate for me to reply. I am a male, not a xtian and therefore not a lamb or bride or ruby or whatever. I am a child of the sixties however and a new-ager for want of a better “collar”. We had our experiences then, and now as a 65 year old liberal who raised 4 normal children, who are neither in any cult-and yes Virginia-these are cults-nor in any right wing “dominance” thought form.
    The sixties happened and the old age just did not like it, yet the world moved on despite the negative reaction to what I now feel was a very spiritual evolution for the human spirit in its search for freedom. That negative reaction has blossomed into what all of us are now living in.
    What I am suggesting is that there is more to the universe and what is going on than submission to a patriarchy based on a dead Jew-which I will be one day as well. I can not imagine being brainwashed in such a way. I thank G-d for giving me the faith to raise my children in love and peace and as many of us Jews and others have said for 1500 years-merciful creator,spare us from the insanity of your most fervent believers.
    Yeshua was a beautiful spiritual teacher and the soul of his message is to love one’s neighbor as oneself which is very yogic and eastern and communistic. Remember dear readers unless you have been where I have been you are unschooled in interpreting an eastern semitic teacher fairly. His words are so yogic and transcendental. Bottom line-love one’s neighbor defined the “woodstock” consciousness and the sum quota of the Beatles music-;[“and in the end , the love you take is equal to the love you make”]. And not synonymous with fundamentalist xtianity as practiced today with its exceptionalism and dominance theories so prevalent This is what your youth will rebel against. The wrong “voice” as we enter the new age, the messianic age.
    They will become part of one human consciousness than does not see color, sexual preference, religion, nationality, or gender as “more’ or “less”–just unique and beautiful and another facet of the godhead.
    If any reader finds these comments to be sincere as I intend them to be and would like more info please reply to this post.
    Whatever your response to my words, to all women who have suffered during the past 10, 000 years of patriarchy-forgive us of our ignorance my sisters, it has brought the world no peace. May your healing journey be blessed and fruitful and bring you into a life of ecstasy and freedom. G-d bless you all.

  • LiberalJesus

    Jesus approves this message

  • Ragnhildr

    I really liked reading your post. I was raised by great parents who taught me their love of
    G-d and family. They were raised Christian but rejected the parts that my Dad referred to as the ‘fairy tale stuff’ when they grew up and raised their own family.

  • Jan

    I appreciate Vyckie and her website. It is not easy to walk away from abuse from an angry husband and an angry, demanding God who cannot be pleased. The quiverfull movement is an attempt to do “everything” a christian can think of to get God’s approval and avert condemnation and wrath. The Hebrews created a monster in Yahweh. It takes courage to go against 80% of your culture and recognize that trying to meet the demands of Yahweh is not healthy no matter what the “groupthink” of your chosen religious “tribe” says. God’s threat of eternal torment and unexpected tragedy is traumatic and very frightening. Three major world religions worship this “god” of Abraham. When “god” tells you to tie your child up and put him over a fire and sacrifice him, you are suffering from psychosis. Creating a god that impregnates himself into a frightened teenager only to have himself killed in order to save a “few” people seems like a religion that should be discarded. Man can be very moral without god. What do we love about a god who destroyed the world in a flood and saved one family. The quiverfull movement is all about trying to be that “righteous” family that god will spare when he destroys the world. The truth is this, mankind is destroying the world. The nuclear energy industry has the capacity to destroy mankind and alter his DNA. What use is a silent god who did not reveal a religion that insists on protecting the earth and mankind. Why didn’t this all powerful being not write in his book…Thou shalt not risk destruction with nuclear weapons and a nuclear energy industry capable of polluting and killing mankind. The christians are protesting abortion clinics and leaving nuclear energy plants and their owners alone. No one is more at risk right now than a fetus and an infant from the pollution from Fuchishima. Where is the outrage? If Yahweh can “speak” to so many christians as they profess why is he not telling them to create a movement to shut down the nuclear industry? Because “god” doesn’t speak to anyone, and a 3000 year old book is useless to base a modern and moral life on…that’s why.

  • Dana

    “children (fools) should not be socialized by other children (fools) ~ but instead should learn social skills from adults.”

    I don’t like the “fools” language but aside from that, what is the problem that liberals and feminists have with this notion? I consider myself both (sort of–I’m still struggling with the liberal thing, though I’m not a conservative in the usual sense either), but seriously, what does another kid know about being an adult? If they knew enough, they’d be an adult already. It is the job of adults to socialize children. Other children are for friendships, not to teach your kids how to grow up.

    You do know there are non-Quiverfull, non-conservative, non-right-winger parents who homeschool their kids for this reason, right? And if I might point out an uncomfortable fact, state control of public schools cuts both ways. While the right-wingers are worried about secular liberals controlling the schools, *I* am worried about abstinence-only sex ed and creationism creeping in–and don’t tell me they wouldn’t, I’ll just laugh at you.

    At the end of the day we have the right to maintain our cultures and raise our own kids. It’s very anti-freedom to suggest otherwise. Parents are not baby factories to create more consumers for corporations or more citizens for the state. Corporations and states come and go. One area in which I do sort of agree with conservatives is that the family has got to come first. But if it’s a matriarchal, mother-centered family as opposed to the Quiverfull wet dream, or even something in between the two, I’m totally down with that.

  • susan skorc

    When are we going to get over this bs and stop repeating the past again and again? It’s the same old crap that men have used to keep woman down from one century to the next. I suppose all women have the most wonderfully compassionate men who are most wise and fair, and work hard to make a great life for their slaves, I mean wives, and their dozens of children. These men always put their families first and make sure that they have enough to eat and a wonderful home life. I’m sure they all work several jobs or are super stars that make millions. I feel so sorry for the children in these situations.

  • http://jimdandy3.blogspot.com David

    “I don’t like the “fools” language but aside from that, what is the problem that liberals and feminists have with this notion?”

    Sorry, could you point me to where feminists and liberals have, either as policy or desire, put forth the idea that children should raise children?

    “At the end of the day we have the right to maintain our cultures and raise our own kids.”

    And what, pray tell, is “your culture”? What is it about you that makes your culture unique in the greater milieu of the United States? Clothes? Folk songs? Dance? Food? As for your children, you don’t own them. You get to raise them, but they don’t belong to you. It’s a fine distinction, but it needs to be made.

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  • lacy

    I don’t even know where to start. I suppose, first of all, thank you Vyckie for the time and support you give to women and families who suffer abuse in the name of God. I understand many view this as blog as too general but I would hope that most, like I, are able to understand that there are varying degrees to which you can take your belief and identify the behaviors which you speak of that are damaging. I recognize that you speak of “Quiverfull” not to damn the one and save the rest but because this was your personal experience, we all know spiritual abuse can happen within and via any denomination.
    I was raised “without religion,” however my mother did school me in history and multiple fields of theology as a pre-teen – teenager, and with that being said I’d like to identify myself as an anti-theist and stand up for “Angie the anti-theist” here; this one is for you Jeff. Being an anti-theist doesn’t mean you reject God or the idea of God, that is an Athiest. Anti-THEISTs believe organized religion does more damage than good, simple as that. Granted, most anti-thesits are likely to be athiest or agnostic it doesn’t make them Satanists, Mysothesists, Dysotheists etc. I am not ignorant to the fact that your theological teachings probably lead you to believe this is no better than being any of the above listed and justifies you talking down to and acting superior to others but unfortunately that is the effect of these organized religions we reject so, so be it. We don’t need organised religion to instill good morals in ourselves, children, friends, and others nor to make us loving people. If that were true, simply put, this blog would not exist. I understand that in the end the thing that gives you and Helen justification for your actions is the belief that you are doing your duty and that the rest of us will go to Hell for not following the same path and you’ll just laugh at the rest of us as you stroll to the pearly gates, but the fact of the matter is that that is YOUR belief and it is NOT truth to anyone except those who also follow your belief. I ask you this one question; how do you know that YOU and YOU alone are right in your thinking? The idea/knowledge of a greater power, an all knowing God, and stories of similar peoples and events was spread WORLD WIDE before world travel was possible, how do you know YOUR version is the correct one. I think NO one has all the answers/is right. I think the only thing that matters is we treat everyone around us with mutual respect and love and anytime you are suppressing or stifling another you are in the wrong, you DO NOT need scripture to teach that.

  • Mary

    I’m currently a home-schooled student and have been one since 1st grade.

    Its awful you had such a bad experience with homeschooling, and I can’t and don’t want to imagine how horrible that was. However, as a home-schooled student, I can say its the best thing that ever happened to me. I don’t wear headcoverings, neither of my parents lords over the other, I’m independent in my choices of clothing, music, activities, and friends, and I have a wonderful relationship with my whole family.

    We started homeschooling because my older brother had trouble in school, and wasn’t thriving there. My mother offered to allow me to stay in school, but I refused because it was too easy, and homeschooling was fun! Every homeschooler that I know is happy, and well educated (All performing at or above national averages) and our “support” group resembles nothing like what is described in the above article. I’ve met home-schoolers from all across the nation ( Thanks to a wonderful Forensics program) and can honestly say that what’s described in the article is outdated and simply not true. Both my siblings excelled in college, and I’m planning on pursuing a career in teaching K-12 education, as learning is my passion. Like I said before, it truly saddens me that some people have your experience, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. Please don’t judge all people who choose to homeschool on the basis of your own bad experience. It belittles those who make that choice. The faction of Christian Home-schoolers you dealt with were misguided, and I would never pretend to defend them. But I will defend my family and friends choices, and would hope you could give us all a second chance.

  • Annie

    I think it’s interesting that you want to teach, but you are home-schooled. Will you teach in private, public or home-schooling setting? Good luck.

  • Rhonnie

    Mary…the point of this website is not to bash all home school situations. It is based on a current movement gaining popularity where a man is the undisputed head (even when wrong) and his wice is absolutely submissive to the point of having no identity beyond how many children she can bear. It teaches male children to become their father…and femal children to become their mother. It is based on the idealology thay “self” is unimportant…selfish…and sinful. It is a show of only happy thoughts, even when the happy face is forced. It is following parenting styles where children are “trained” to not think for themselves from birth but to do as they are told. You have taken the whole meaning behind this site personally when it doesn’t even apply to you. It is about a movement where the thought process is they are doing it right and everyone else is wrong. There are exceptions to every rule…but in truth…this site explains the beluefs of the Duggar family and backs it up with fact. More importantly…it is the story of many womens journey to reclaim what God so meticuliusly gave each of them at conception. A unique personality with free will. Had he wanted a planet of puppets…I think being God he would have created everyone alike.

  • SissyLou

    Wow, there’s a lot of HATE on this site, coming from BOTH sides. This is NOT a welcoming and safe site, as advertised. In practice, it’s the exact opposite. Adios, NoLongerQuivering, I’ll take a pass on this site and will go somewhere that people aren’t sharpening their knives in anticipation of responding in the most hateful way they can to someone they disagree with.

  • Gen

    Well, the important thing is that you’ve managed to find a way to feel superior to “both sides”. HIFIVE! /snark.

  • Linda Rosa

    Subjecting children to religious indoctrination is abusive:


    Children should be allowed to determine their beliefs and values when they are adults.

  • Ginger

    I am confused by this:

    “…more fundamentalist denominations (Baptist, “non-denominational,” Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ, etc.)”

    I grew up as Disciple of Christ, and it was the most liberal church ever lol. Our reverend was a lesbian even!! So I’m pretty sure that Disciple of Christs are not fundamentalists.

  • http://blog.mrzach.com/ Zachariah Wiedeman

    Even the context betrays this for what it really is, though: VOLUNTARY RECIPROCITY. That is not socialism by any stretch of the imagination. For one thing, socialism isn’t voluntary, it is mandated. For another thing, notice how all these examples are of how *Christians* conducted their affairs among other Christians and as Christians.

    There are no examples of Christians engaging in redistribution of wealth with non-believers. It just never happened. Furthermore, Jesus never prescribed government involvement in the issue of charity. He didn’t say, “The man with two tunics should give his extra tunic to a centralized authority so that that authority could redistribute to one who has no tunics.” Rather, he advocated the importance of direct charity. Further Biblical evidence supports that the reasoning behind this is because by voluntarily engaging in direct acts of charity brings the human closer to understanding the nature of God, thus strengthening our relationship with Him. Therefore, this is not a social prescription, it is a spiritual one. And it is a prescription that loses its meaning, significance, and impact if it is anything but voluntary.

    God created us with free will so that we could experience the blessings of voluntarily making the right decisions and the agony of voluntarily making the wrong decisions. It baffles me to no end that any Christian could think that God’s intention for His creation is to set up a social structure (government) that aims to essentially undo what God created. Remember, humans were given free will BEFORE sin entered the world. Why would it make sense that God wants us to organize society in such a way as to strip humans of free will AFTER sin has entered the world and the damage has already been done?

    Then again, I get the funny feeling that you already know this, and you were just being cheeky… =o)

  • Madamoyzelle

    Oh boy, the Socialism boogeyman.

    The United States was founded in rebellion to Kings. “L’etat–c’est moi,” the Sun King said. Guess what? His day is long done. The Divine Right of Kings? Not so much.

    The United States was founded on “No taxation without Representation.”

    It was also founded on rebellion to the nobility, who took everything, including the fruits of their tenant farmers’ labor, for themselves. 99% of the people lived in utter poverty so that 1% could live like kings.

    And the Founding Fathers said NO to that and talked about The Common Good.

    This is supposedly the richest country in the world, and the strongest. And the commoner, whose labor MADE IT GREAT, deserves their pay. This country should be able to take care of its own people. The rest of the First World Nations can–why can’t the US?

    And you will note that Jesus has absolutely not one thing to do with the founding of this country.And as Americans, yeah, we should be looking out for one another, just like the Germans look out for their own people too.

    If you want to call that “Socialism,” that’s fine. But the people in this country deserve their pay, they deserve the fruits of their labor, and they certainly should be able to eat and have basic health care WITHOUT being dependent upon what various beliefs in God might be.

    If you don’t think so, you can always check out Iran. They live a very God-based life. Or you can live in Germany, where you pay taxes to support either the Lutheran church or the Catholic church–no matter what your belief is. Because the Germans also believe that God matters.Pick your poison.

  • Lina Blankenship

    I think the whole thing of women submitting to their husbands even when they are wrong on an issue is just wrong! In fact, I think christianity is wrong on all levels! I am also of the belief that marriage is nothing more than legalized prostitution and women like Michelle Duggar are nothing but whores!

  • Natalie

    Wow, I came to this website looking for Biblical advice on using contraceptives. Unfortunately most of what I have found is a lot of godless ranting and raving. If you think Jesus would be a liberal, if you think God did not put the husband in a place of leadership/authority in the family, if you think God is okay with homosexuality then you are not a trustworthy source of Biblical council because you are interpreting the Bible to meet your own desires, not according to the original intent. Please I beg you to repent! All of us will one day stand before the throne of God and it will not matter what we think is right, the only thing that will matter is what is True. I know this is offensive, but Jesus too was offensive when he was on earth, remember he was crucified by those who were offended. I am so thankful that he made the way for us to be saved. I once lived like a prostitute, bi-sexual, addict… but he saved me and now I am free from the bondage I used to be under! Submission to God is the one true freedom in this life!

  • Madamoyzelle

    Just because you can’t handle what you read here doesn’t mean that anyone is “ranting and raving.” You sure are, though. You went off on quite a tear, there, dincha?

    And LOL–Biblical advice for contraceptives? Are you serious?

    Rein it in there, Natalie. Culture is not doctrine.

  • Natalie

    One more thought about this… I see a big difference between a couple who is having children because they feel like they have to, in order to be approved of by God. Then there is a person who loves the Lord and knows they are already accepted in Christ, and therefore may choose to have children if they believe that choice will bring the most glory to God through their life.

  • Natalie

    Madamoyzelle, I apologize that my tone was misread. I was not meaning to sound harsh, I was just surprised by the comments that misrepresented the Jesus clearly portrayed in Scripture. Also, I did not mean that I was looking for a verse referring specifically to the use of contraceptives. I was simply hoping to find Biblical principles that would help me to understand God’s will in this area. What do you mean “culture is not doctrine”, would you please explain? Thank you.

  • Madamoyzelle

    I am truly surprised at your apology. Didn’t expect it, and of course it is accepted.

    “Culture is not doctrine” is something a more enlightened Catholic priest warned me about many years ago. An example goes to head coverings. In the middle East, then as now, women veiled themselves. That is and was culture in the ME. This was never the culture in Europe. To force women to wear head coverings is forcing a cultural practice on women, a practice that has nothing to do with Christ–who lived in the ME. You may as well force Christian men to wear tunics, since that is what Jesus wore.

    Another example is that of working outside of the home, of having a career in physics. I went to college in the late ’70’s and early ’80’s, and at that time the then-current Women’s Movement was only 4 years old. In my family, I grew up all the time with “women are not mechanically-minded.” “women can’t do math.” “women are emotional.” Given this kind of upbringing, plus a different priest who preached the “women are to be submissive…” I suffered in college and could not do well. It was a constant battle: When I did badly on a test, it was because I was a woman and I was therefore incapable of doing physics. And incapable of having a good career to support myself. It was constant conflict. It was struggle. It was fright. It was worry. It was pain. It was sadness. And I am shocked how I type this out for the first time, I am really feeling this and hurting about it. This has hurt me deeply. And it has ruined my life, because I have not been who I could have been.

    An undiagnosed learning disability certainly didn’t help.

    Anyway. The more enlightened priest noted that if I married, the man who chose me would know about my career. And if he told me that I had to stop my career, it would have to be for a very serious reason. In other words–a man couldn’t just order me around. The culture in the ME is to order women around–that women are second class citizens who do not have the right to be in the labor force with men. But in the US, that was not the culture–at least, not as severely as in the ME. So Christian faith is not based on circumscribing women’s freedom to participate in the labor force.

    Re birth control. Women are intelligent. They can foresee trouble and take steps to avoid it–for example, having children at the wrong time. A natural way to do this is by taking your basal body temperature each day and charting your body temp. This, in combination with the mucus method, can tell you a great deal of information about your fertility at any given time. This is not a method to be undertaken lightly, because it requires dedication and work. You also need to consult with a gynecologist to learn how to do this correctly. This method will fail after childbirth, because your cycle will have changed drastically, so until you have re-established a stable cycle, you would need some other kind of birth control.

    Note that I never used this myself, but what I described above is pretty basic methodology for women who are trying to become pregnant–it’s Fertility 101.

    Best wishes to you in your life journey. Don’t circumscribe your options. Learn to listen to your heart–your emotions are valuable. Don’t let the patriarchy tell you otherwise.

  • Chxlive

    Madamoyzelle, I hope you’re still around to read this reply. Thank you for being so candid about the effects the Christian indoctrination you experienced had on you. I felt some of the same, but fortunately, I had enough of a rebellious spirit that I was able to get a graduate degree and have a career. But I always struggled with insecurity and self-doubt, the results of an obedience-focused childhood with frequent, unpredictable physical punishment.

    I also appreciate the detail with which you described the “natural” way of avoiding pregnancy. I have known three families who chose this method – they all ended up with unintended pregnancies within 6 months. The only reliable birth control is the Pill, condoms, Norplant, etc. – used conscientiously – or sterilization. Let’s not fool around with this – you can tell people what they want to hear, or you can tell them the truth. Catholics and other Christians widely use contraception (some studies report upwards of 94% of Catholic women of reproductive age using some form of contraception), and the plummeting birth rates of Catholic parishioners is the evidence. Catholics and other Christians also avail themselves of abortion services in great numbers. THIS is the reality – let’s embrace it and make everyone’s lives easier for them, shall we?

    The wonderful thing about contraception is that now, women THEMSELVES can choose when and if they will become pregnant. It is the most clear and the most decisive break with the patriarchy that holds a woman’s body hostage to a man’s ownership.

  • http://bibicalpersonhood.wordpress.com Retha

    Natalie, I think God’s will on contraceptives is much the same as his will on everything else:
    1) Make responsible choices.
    2) Do not start anything without counting the cost.
    3) God is sovereign. He can give children to old women like Elisabeth, barren women like Hannah, and a virgin like Mary. You cannot contravene His will with a pill.
    Another thing, as a Christian myself I am glad to hear God saved you. You probably want Him to save others as well. If so, be careful how you present God. You see, some people here are unbelievers. T o tell them “… you are not a worthy source of Biblical council … repent” is silly, as they don’t even try to be a source of Biblical council.
    Preaching husbands as leaders is a truly unwise move here. You, who lived as a bisexual and addict, probably suffered a lot of hurt before coming to Christ. Many women here suffered their lots of hurt as believers, because of how they understood submission. There are stories here of women who allowed their husband to abuse them or their children, as they believed that submission mean never going against him. You are free from your bondage, they are now free from theirs.
    If you want to preach Christ, do not preach Christ-plus-works, Christ-plus-husbandly-lead. Do you not trust that if these women go (back) to Christ, He himself could show them how to live? Preach a Christ who will not break the bruised reed, or quench the smoking flax. Talking about male lead here is a way to break bruised reeds.

  • Natalie

    Thank you. I appreciate the advice. I came to this website with the assumption that it was a “Christian” website, and that is why I was so surprised by the comments. That is also why I communicated the way I did. I absolutely do not want to convey that Christ + anything = salvation, and I apologize for communicating that in my writing. I am very aware that Christ alone can save. Also, I understand that there is an abuse of the word “submission” and I will be more careful how I communicate about that area in the future (not that I would even speak with an unbeliever about it anyway).

  • Bill

    seriously….you are still discussing ‘God’s will’ and the Bible and not laughing as the absurdity of it? Many of you, sadly, have just replaced once cultic insanity for another.

  • Linda

    When you discuss homeschooling please refer to it as Christian Homeschoolers or Christian Homeschooling. Always insert that Christian peice because the other homeschoolers aren’t doing what you describe above and you are hurting the rest of us. I am tired of reading how you feel about homeschooling and the smear you put on it when you are not describing homeschooling as a whole. You are describing the crazy conservative Christian bent on homeschooling. That is not homeschooling. Please stop ruining it for the rest of us.

  • abba12

    Or maybe we could just refer to them as bad homeschoolers or people who shouldn’t be homeschooling in the first damn place.

    As a homeschooled child, I have seen PLENTY of christian homeschoolers who did it right and turned out wonderful kids, I’ve also seen PLENTY of non-christian homeschoolers who seriously screwed it up, my mother being a very good example. I’ve seen two particularly terrible examples of attempts to homeschool, one was christian, one was not. Fact is, some people just shouldn’t homeschool, but homeschooling itself is not inherently bad, I’ve met some wonderful homeschooled kids who plan to do the same with their kids and will probably do wonderfully.

    I am a christian. I plan to homeschool. But my homeschool will look nothing like these ‘homeschools’ that are described in so many abusive families.

  • Laura

    You know, after reading this article, I wonder if everyone on both sides of this story knows the story of Christ’s birth. Somehow in that story, God made it possible for a virgin to conceive and give birth. Remember???
    So…it appears to be that if He wants a woman to conceive I don’t think a pill every day is going to stop Him from His plan or be very difficult for that matter either.

  • APG
  • Ed

    This sounds like good Christianity to me.

  • christine

    if someone likes the lifestyle it is not abusive. If any one adult in the family does not like the lifestyle and is not permitted to change it to a different compromise etc. it becomes abusive. women or men alike, admittedly the person who does not like it and is not permitted to receive more of what they like, is probably more often the woman

  • Ellen

    I think the Quiverfull crew should all wear T-shirts that say:
    “I make stuff up.”
    Maybe they could have home school printing classes to make the
    shirts and then sell them for a home business. It would give them
    something to do and maybe make them think.

  • EWilson

    Note that all the “Quiverfull” families so glowingly portrayed on TV (the Duggars, the Bates, and all their friends in “fellowship” are LILY WHITE. You will never see a black or a Hispanic family with 18 or 19 kids being glorified in the same way, that I guarantee! This whole movement is racist beyond belief.

  • Just A Thought

    Okay this is just for my christian friends – folks if you are reading your bible and keep seeing people saying “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” well, that isn’t Jesus talking. That’s some other, non-God-related human being expressing his opinions and then pinning it to the Jesus banner. (You’re only supposed to worship God. Read the Old Testament. I didn’t see God adding a note anywhere in the New Testament that proclaimed Jesus His new spokesman on Earth and to disregard the first books. Only Hollywood does that. I’m looking at you Batman and Spider-man. Hell, even Jesus said he wasn’t the son of God any more then the rest of us, but I digress.)

    Anyway, the only things you should take out of the bible can be summed up simply: Don’t lie, Don’t hurt yourself, others, property, the world in general or animals in pursuit of your own goals and Treat others the way you want to be treated. If we teach children simple rules of sharing, making the community a better place to live and to respect themselves and others then why is it that religions always feel the need to disrespect others: three major Abraham descended religions beating the snot out of each other for 1,500 years or so, destruction of ancient sites due to political ideology, and so forth? Stop ranting, stop hating – get out of the house and make friends with those you fear. Go eat their food and know them better. You might just learn something and draw your own conclusions – because it’s in the bible that’s really what God wanted you to do!

    No – Really!! He gave humanity increased intelligence and freewill to look around the world and make choices. At the end of your exploration, human beings should make an informed decision to be good, neutral, bad or down right evil, but it is ultimately a human’s choice. Learn the lessons about sharing and apply it. Don’t force it on someone else – it is by design that each person must live, experience and make choices. Don’t try to force anyone into your ideology. That said, feel free to disregard me.

    And that’s what this site is about – someone who has lived in an ideology, found it not to their tastes and is telling her personal story from her viewpoint. It’s not bashing, it’s storytelling. It is sharing a human experience and what were the positives and negatives of it. And if you don’t like, turn off the page and go somewhere else on the web that reaffirms your bent and views of your human experience.

    PS Being of a different sexual orientation and discriminating against someone because of it makes people look stupid. No one is asking you to join into their fun. Eradication of the LGTB community is stupid – hang pedophiles – they are pure evil!

  • Catholic Gate-Grasher

    Wow. I stumbled upon this site via StuffFundiesLike. (Can’t remember how I stumbled upon StuffFundiesLike, lol.)

    I’m not too familiar with this Quiverfull stuff, but I have definitely encountered it via our local home-school convention. (I stopped attending this convention years ago, because it was too fundy and anti-Catholic for my tastes.)

    Some of the stuff the OP describes does strike me as weird, abusive, and cult-like. But some of it just strikes me as, well, the way most of our grandparents lived. My grandparents on both sides had large families — and they were about as far from fundamentalist as you can get. (One set was Irish-Catholic, the other Italian-Catholic.) Back in the day, practically everyone had a large family…and no one labeled it a “movement.” It was pretty much the norm in my grandparents’ generation.

    My husband and I are kind of unconventional. We live in the woods because, well, we love the woods; we are tree-huggers from way back. We homeschooled all the way through, but my husband, a Harvard liberal-arts PhD, did the homeschooling. (He is an ex-teacher.) I have always worked outside the home. I wear dresses a lot because they’re comfortable, but I also wear pants and leggings. We attend our local Catholic parish. We never really got into homeschooling support groups (mainly because they held their events at very inconvenient times). I would say that my husband is definitely the head of our home, but we do make decisions mutually. We came back to Christ and the Church relatively late in life; then we started using Natural Family Planning. We never found it too burdensome because we didn’t get all crazy-nutty about it. I was lousy at the charting stuff, and we basically just waited five days max. It worked for us. 😉

    I am definitely NOT the natural-childbirth-earth-mother type. I respect and admire women who are, but it’s not for me. I think God invented epidurals for a reason, thank you very much.

    But anyway, enough of this blather. I find this site pretty fascinating, although it does seem to over-generalize a bit, perhaps. In any event, I sure am glad I never got sucked into this sort of thing. We live in the Bible Belt, and we are surrounded by people who believe that the Catholic Church is a cult. But, in our own experience, as a quirky homeschooling Catholic family attending a normal Catholic parish, we have never gone in for the cult-like creepiness described in the OP. Not even close.

  • Cristina

    We must remember that following God should be a black and white issue. There really isn’t a gray area. There is a narrow path and Jesus spoke of it (Matthew 7). If we are truly counted among those that believe in Christ we would keep His commandments. (1John) To play this game that 1 group is more religious than another and to go back and is foolish and irresponsible. You and I will stand before the Lord and account for our own faith measured against the Word of God not measured by what we may think is right. THis site is pause for concern and yet I am called to make sure that I am living a consist life, and to walk in a manner worthy of who I say I am. (Including my speech, written or verbal ) We must honor God and live the way He says is the right way (if we are to be counted among the faith ); it is by His standards that we will be judged.

  • miserableoldfart

    7 Billion people on a dying planet, and these pathetic, twisted psycho idiots want to do all they can to make things worse.

  • http://twitter.com/swordwhale1 Teanna Byerts

    That pretty much sums it up, thank you! I first heard this on BBC/NPR and was appalled. Sadly, we can’t make it illegal, but we could make it more expensive.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lauren.borrero Lauren Borrero

    I don’t think the planet is dying if it was we couldn’t live on it and we would all have died out by now too.

  • miserableoldfart

    Uh, no. Mass death of human beings is a few years off yet. We have poisoned the air and the oceans. We have caused massive global warming already, and it’s accelerating. On top of that we are still, stupidly increasing population and fossil fuel consumption.

    You don’t “BELIEVE” the planet is dying. If you were THINKING you would realize the truth.

  • http://twitter.com/YellowDogYankee Yellow Dog Yankee

    This article understates the case by overstating it. These families exist in much less extreme form everywhere. Growing up in Utah “as many children as God chose to give us” was a common statement and I can think of a dozen of my acquaintances who had six to 14 children the last time I checked. In the South where I live today it is common to see young pregnant women shopping in WalMart, an infant and a toddler in the shopping cart and two non-school aged children trotting alongside.

    I would guess the majority of these families are not living off the grid nor putting head scarves on their girls but are integrated into our communities where they are a drain of the social and educational system to which they contribute little because our tax system is designed to reward their behavior. And I would guess that their ministers and persons who are not close to the family (teachers, neighbors, and local businesses might not agree) call them “wonderful” families and praise the example of family values they are setting.

    I don’t see how two parents (and that presumes the father is even a FTE parent – not working two or three jobs supporting his tribe or totally wrapped up in the church during his leisure hours) can possibly provide emotional and physical care to a dozen children. The idea that they may also be trying to educate them should be classified as child abuse.

  • http://twitter.com/swordwhale1 Teanna Byerts

    Pleasegawd let us change things to make this retarded behavior much much more expensive… 7 billion people on this planet is far too many.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lauren.borrero Lauren Borrero

    You sure about that?

  • starskeptic

    Yup – the only thing that has allowed the world’s population to get this far is oil… The supply of which is not inexhaustible.

  • MiltonDValler

    I learned of Quiverfull from a report on the BBC world Service. I was not really amazed. Severe control religions are in all parts of the world in Christendom and Islam alike. Tribalism is us. Google: ‘Heart and Soul BBC’ and search Episodes.

  • Arianna

    There was a Quiverfull family who lived on base with us. She was tied to the house by 9 kids when we met and 11 with another on the way when they HAD to move off base as there was no legal housing for a family of that size. This is after the US had gutted a duplex for them to move into when they arrived. Her 8 yr old wasn’t potty trained due to the fact that mom had NO TIME to do much of anything besides cook, clean, teach ALL the kids and pop out more babies. I helped them move off base and met others of their “faith”. The horrid part was how the women in the group were constantly on this one woman’s case because she must be doing something wrong as she’d not had any children yet. This woman was asked by other WOMEN, are you submitting to your husband properly? Does he beat you when you get your period like he should? Funny, I never read anything about THAT in the Bible!

  • Nobody

    I SERIOUSLY thought this link was a joke when I clicked on it and started reading…. FACE. PALM.

  • EvelynKrieger

    I am very well-read and have never heard of any of this! They give homeschooling a bad name.

  • Dan Duley

    we should follow the world’s example. Pray that out kids are on a Disney show make millions and turn into Miley, Lindsay or http://www.buzzfeed.com/spenceralthouse/16-disney-channel-stars-who-have-been-arrested

  • Dan Duley

    While there are some odd people out there, this writer paints everyone who wants a large family with a very broad brush. So you want forced abortions or limits on the the number of kids per $ of income? Can one be part of the Quiverfull without any knowledge of it? You also seem to hold it against a family that choses to run a home based business, but two parents that are gone 10 hours a day working and commuting (the norm) is just fine? Schools systems that foster violence and teach homosexuality as normal are also the best alternative to home based education? The facts would dispute the notion that normal American families are healthy.