The Tony Jones Blog at Patheos
Here’s part two of the video conversation between theologian/philosopher of science, Phillip Clayton, and me.
Great interview Tony! Thanks for the insights and honesty. I especially appreciate the part about the influence of culture and our need for patient anticipation for Christianity to catch up.
Before the intellectualizing breaks out here, let me just reiterate that I think you rock, Tony! Ever praying for you and your family. Peace.
As a Roman Catholic, with the conservative idea of the Seamless Garment of Life, I see only katholikos- the reality behind Christianity that is true for “normal” human beings. To me, environmentalism and being pro-life are one and the same, as is being anti-war, anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-euthanasia. It’s the *same issue*, though Americans don’t seem to understand. Asking homosexuals to live a life of celibacy is obvious in this- it’s about human procreation. I don’t hate gay people- I want them to live chaste lives *just like heterosexuals* are called to restrict sex to only within marriage for the purpose of procreation and parenthood (sex done right, takes 25 years and includes three or more human beings!). I would challenge you to, instead of “waiting for Christianity to catch up”, get progressive to the point where SOCIETY catches up with what the church has taught all along- that human life and human dignity are sacred.
Ted, I would like to hear your defense of your claim to procreation-only sex. Song Of Solomon mentions no child or purpose what so ever. And the whole thing is to point out right sex in right marriage. No child is present or, to our knowledge, ever came of it. 1 Corinthians 7 talks again of sex. Paul never mentions children… I’m very interested to hear your reply
That definitely deserves a reply. But my reply, also needs some background first: For Catholics, there are really four sources of knowledge about God, not just one. Scripture (of course), Tradition (at least the dogmatic portion of it), Natural Law, and Human Conscience. Due to what you’d call “Process Theology” and what I’d call “Organic Doctrinal Development”, our understanding of science and humanity in the last two, affects our understanding of the first two. Sex for “procreation only”- comes from natural law. ALL mammalian species, not just human beings, need to have sex for the species to survive. Now having said that, parenthood is a part of this. Thus, sex is also unitive- the man and the woman becoming of one flesh, for the good of the children. A monogamous couple who does not yield to the temptation of divorce, is much more likely to finish the sex act than one that is not- for sex is FAR more than just intercourse- it’s also raising the child to be an adult. Restricting the idea of sex to just the initial courting of the Song of Solomon- or Paul (a celibate and quite possibly a homosexual, I’ve seen some interpretation of his letters that claimed he struggled with unnatural urges) definition of sex as merely the deadly sin of lust, seems to me to be missing the long term view and at least 90% of the enjoyment of the topic.
Here is a quote from my husband’s cousin above, Ted Seeber, reprinted from my blog at http://eyesofhope.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/jesus-loves-gay-people-too/#comment-129 in which I feel he said some things I think would be helpful to the conversation here. Peace. His words follow: “Being homosexual is never sinful. SOME of the gay lifestyle in the United States is sinful. But then again, so is some of heterosexual life in the United States. I see being *actively gay* in *polygamous situations* as being equal to any sex outside of marriage. Iâ€™m Roman Catholic, but unlike the Church I do support both Courage (the group that preaches homosexuals should be celibate) and Dignity (the Roman Catholic group that says, if you canâ€™t live up to church teaching and be Celibate, at least be Monogamous). As for the rest, well, Lust is one of the Seven Mortal Sins- but like all mortal sins, itâ€™s a venal sin if you donâ€™t let it take over your life.”
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