Do me a favor and put aside all of your Adventy niceness for just this one post. I hope and expect that the comment section will be filled with enormous amounts of snark. Think of it as your pre-Christmas snark release valve.
wow. they are really niche marketing there.
rev. marnie fisher-ingram
Ouch! Well at least in my tribe we have stopped having pastor and wife retreats and have moved on to minister and mates retreats.
Oh by the way…women are welcomed-(ish).
Welcomed-(ish)… as long as they stay in their place and leave the menfolk alone to do the real stuff? No thanks.
As if pastors’ wives need to hear from anyone but their husbands…
Really????? The Women are much better looking… lol
I thought Chris Seay was better than that!
I know, my heart sank when I saw his picture and then got to the bottom and realized what was going on. But at the end of the day, I suppose, it’s better to have someone like Chris Seay speaking there than to have him not and leave a vacuum where there could have been Chris Seay’s thoughts and messages.
That really disappoints me. I went to his church when I lived in Houston. I hope there’s more to this and he isn’t endorsing this kind of subservience of women.
Does Ecclesia ordain women? My understanding is that they don’t. I would be happy to find out otherwise.
I’d imagine when he signed on (or his agent did) this poster wasn’t yet made and it wasn’t just so plainly laid out like that.
You will find the pastor’s wives track behind the partition in the side hall.
Well, they did manage to find four men of color . . . out of 33 slots. Also, how did Trisha Davis get her special Dispensation?
My money is on them talking about marriage or something about godly sex.
Spot on, Carla! Nice.
I hope they do. There certainly needs to be more of that in this age of deception!
Bob Franquiz is Cuban and pastors in Miami. You might want to adjust your number. 😉
I just read their profile… I bet she got her special dispensation because she stood by her man as he had an affair. With a staff member. Who was also Trisha’s best friend.
I shit you not.
I can’t believe it. Thanks for my LOL moment…
Dave- Link please!
I wish I could say this is even remotely surprising.
Tony, if you look at their website, Fuller is listed as a partner. That is just wrong…
I love this. So much. I am reposting. I am so tempted to register for this, and register my husband in the pastor’s wives track.
Traci, best Reply so far
Traci, that is the best response!!! As a lady pastor, I would so do the same thing and my husband would totally go for it too! I would love to see their response to that!
Nice! You nice made my day.
We should encourage Chris Seay to say something (and probably never get invited back). But obviously in a generous and sensitive tone… We don’t want another Mark Driscoll-ish “naming names” call out.
Of course, if you want to save your $79 altogether, betcha most of these folks are podcasting their Sunday sermons. The quality of the speaking ain’t gonna improve just because they’re in Atlanta; I guarantee nearly all of them will be recycling stuff they’ve already said to their churches. So download all of them and have your own mini-conference via iPod.
…Well, unless you’re on the Pastors’ Wives track. Not as many pastors’ wives are podcasting. But they ought to. And pastors, not just their spouses, ought to listen to them.
The pastors wives after thought is terrible. The mass of middle aged white guys is typical. I throw that stuff away as even the youth events look like this. I won’t go to an event if it doesn’t have some slate of female leadership.
I call that a dude soup.
Where are their burkas?
28% have trendy glasses 12% non-white dudes
I’m about to go Rain Man on you running the numbers.
Middle-aged white men can’t jump … nor do they speak for the diversity that is inherent in a world of 7 billion people. However, it is one way to ensure self-protection.
Great point. The self-protection comment.
I was the only speaker at this event last year when it was called “Consistency”. They decided to launch a re-boot after I talked about things like humility, servanthood, unity, equality, gentleness, faithfulness and justice. Last year’s promo picture was my face photoshopped onto the hindu god Ganeshu crushing older white male neo-Calvinists under my elephant feet and my many arms were crushing Starbucks cups and all the presidents of the Baptist Seminaries.
My picture is below the blue line of Especially Special Godliness… I demand to know who I need to repress in order to get moved up!
Yes, I know it should be ‘whom.’ I disobey man’s grammar laws. I’m edgy like that.
You know what’s funny to me? I’ve been a Christian since 1971, have a seminary education, and I’ve never heard of a single one of these people.
$79 gets you a bunch of B- and C-list pastors and a few desperate housewives. #exhaustion2012
Pastors Wives Track–blech!
Now now. Don’t be angry. There’s a really generous recent blog series on their site about women…they’ve been given the whole of Wednesday…(?!)
Seriously?! Is that all we are capable of, interested in and good for? I respect the idea of hospitality and have spent the last 20+ years as a domestic goddess, but really? That is not all I am interested in nor capable of, for pete’s sake! Talk about pigeon-holing and stereotyping!
arrrrgh! you beat me to it!
oooops…that sounds wrong.
I counted only two ties and no dog collars. If you’re going to be patriarchal you might as well be hip as well!
What is Trisha doing in the front row and what track does she attend?
Hip sporty glasses? $400 Edgy cool haircut? $30 trendy fashion wear? $150 photogenic smile plastered on face? $100 sexy wife pic? $100 (same sitting as your photo)
Looking like you got life by the tail and Jesus is your totally suave guru? Priceless
So where is the Biblical support for being snarky? I love sarcasm as much as the next person, but not quite sure why we should invite the attacking of our brothers in this part of their spiritual journey- or is it justified because we see it all so clearly? Is there something else we need to be focusing on today?
Sorry if this seems like a lack of a sense of humor, but in our circles we tend to justify this tearing down of other believers way too often. I see it all the time in my own life, and am realizing the impact that it can have not only on my brothers and sisters in Christ that I make fun of, but also my own love for the body- not to mention the people that are listening to my comments…
Thank you. It is one thing to disagree with someone else’s view; it’s another to invite others to mock those views as is being done here. Believe me, this is a conference I would never attend, but I also do not think the self-righteous attitudes displayed here and the immature comments are any better.
Sorry you two are distressed by this, but sometimes folks need to blow off some steam.
Ah yes. “Blow off steam in the way of Jesus.”
Confused. Try putting your remarks into the mouth of the doctor of the law in Luke 11:45. Jesus came in a moment of crisis to call out great change. We also live in such a time of cataclysm, of disturbing and radical change. Sometimes we are called to look upon deep injustice for what it is and to communally rehearse the new reality in the face of the blindness which is around us. If all we did was share snark we would fall short of our calling. We do not only encourage each other to see clearly; we also speak and do justice. One of the great salvation moments in my life was participation in the Christianity 21 Conference in the Minneapolis area where all the presenters were women. God’s blessings on you as you face the challenges of our times.
Ok, Confused, let’s play your game for a moment: where is the biblical support for driving your car? Or watching TV? Or playing baseball? Or using a computer? Or a million other things we do everyday?
Snark and satire are called for here because those are the tools one uses to demonstrate that the emperor has no clothes.
That flier shows people who publicly and proudly treat women as less than fully human. And these people have the audacity to proclaim that God wants or endorses or even demands that women be treated that way.
Snark and satire aren’t just called for in response, they are required!
And, yes, I also know that means I should expect similar treatment to point out all the ways I’m blind to my privilege or treat people unjustly. In fact, I need it.
“where is the biblical support for driving your car? Or watching TV? Or playing baseball? Or using a computer? Or a million other things we do everyday?”
Say whaaaatt? That is BS. It’s apples and oranges dude. I’m surprised you can’t figure that out. Confused is talking about an inner attitude towards people who are ostensibly your brothers in Christ. There *is* biblical counsel for that you know. But apparently you must not believe them to be as much. Either that or you have such disregard for any scriptural teaching whatsoever that the words “biblical counsel” are unintelligible to you. Would you engage these people in this way if you were sitting across from them at a table? With sarcasm and bitchiness? Would that engender conversation or understanding? If you wouldn’t then you are a coward, or what I would term a keyboard warrior. Tony, your disdain for evangelicals on this blog has really become a one note song. It has blinded you to the point where you actually solicit snarkiness, which is nothing but mean-spiritedness under a thinly-veiled guise of humor or blowing off steam. Give me a break. How Christ-like. And that sorry little bit about admiring evangelicals for their zeal was about the worst back-handed compliment I’ve heard in a while. Did you admire the Nazi’s for their zeal as well?
“That flier shows people who publicly and proudly treat women as less than fully human.”
Again, BS! Let me break it to you gently. That is your OPINION! You don’t get to place your view of egalitarianism over complentarianism as the unquestionable truth with a period at the end. You may argue for it’s merits all day, but you may not impose your judgments from on high, or as though you were capable of knowing the hearts of others so intimately.
“Snark and satire aren’t just called for in response, they are required!”
Once again, BS. What is required is having the courage to call out un-Christlike behavior and attitudes. Apparently only Confused and one or two others here possess that kind of moral instinct. The rest are devoid of it.
Hi Chris, thanks for engaging on this.
You’re right, there is something I fail to understand: I call out the un-Christlike behavior and attitude of treating women as less than fully human and I’m “imposing my judgement from on high.”
Meanwhile, you call me a coward who has great disregard for scripture, and you call everyone who’s posted here that you disagree with as devoid of moral instinct (with a period at the end of the sentence), and that’s just fine???
Further, I’m not making an unsupported assertion (a presumption of guilt) that the people on the flier treat women as less than human. I’m making a conclusion – the only logical conclusion I can draw – based on the evidence of the flier. The flier that clearly says women cannot be pastors simply due to being women. I don’t have to have some secret knowledge of their hearts, they are wearing their hearts on their flier for all to see.
How are they treating women as less than fully human? Seems a little melodramatic to me.
The question remains. Would you engage these people in this way if you were sitting across from them at a table? With sarcasm and bitchiness?
If you want to express righteous anger then express it. Make your case. But don’t hide behind that petty sarcasm crap and then stroke yourself by proclaiming that you’re “calling anyone out.”
Chris, I sense our conversation is coming to an end as I am no longer able to understand several of your words and so fear we are merely talking past each other now. For instance: -I truly don’t know where I’ve been either sarcastic or bitchy here. (Snarky? Yes, but that’s something different.)
– Make my case? I’ve already posted 6 comments making my case. I even linked to a post of mine about this. Any more and I’ll be the asshole who thinks this is about him. Hell, I probably already am.
-I honestly don’t know how I’m hiding behind anything. I’m commenting using my real name, linked to my real blog. (Sure, it’s a pathetic little thing with, like, 5 readers, but still, there it is.)
You seem to want to know what my demeanor would be if I were sitting down in person with people from the flier. I hope it would be polite and firm. But I’ve already commented here that I don’t trust myself to remain polite. Because I don’t find them being at all polite as they say to my wife, my daughter, my mother, my sisters-in-law, my aunts, my cousins, my friends, my teachers, and every other woman I’ve ever known, cared for, loved or been loved by, that they are somehow inferior simply because they are women. Or, more to the point, calling all the women in *their* lives inferior!
I truly don’t get that. And, yes, it makes me very angry.
Does it only count as making a case if I quote scripture? Ok. Gen. 1:27 “So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” (NRSV). People like the ones on the flier who declare that women are ontologically inferior to men deny their full humanity, deny the image of God in them. I don’t want to be near such a toxic, un-Christlike attitude.
I fail to understand how you come to the conclusion that anyone is saying women are inferior. Seems like simple histrionics to me.
The best part is what happens when you click on the flyer link. Well played, Dr. Jones!
That is pretty nice that they allow all of 4 woman to have some kind of part…probably meeting in a sunday school classroom or a basement….
Well, it does make sense…if you still believe in the rather antiquated view that women do not truly possess the Image of God: they only participate in it through their husbands.
Hey Tony, sorry to bust on ya, but the Emergent Village EmergentC December newsletter described the 2012 Emergent Village Theological Conversation this way, “This year, we are thrilled to partner with the Claremont School of Theology and Process and Faith to [present] process theologians John Cobb, Philip Clayton, and others.”
Apparently “and others” includes Monica Coleman, Jeanyne Slettom, Bruce Epperly, Julie Clawson and Danielle Shroyer
glass houses and all — thanks for pointing this out ~peace
I have nothing to do with Emergent Village or the E/C these days. If I did, that would have been different.
Just for the record, Danielle Shroyer happens to be my pastor. She is not just one of the “others.” I’m really disappointed in the pandering to complementarians.
Failing to see the huge deal with this predominantly male, white, lineup. Honestly. I know that ‘white male’ is akin to a swear word in the Emergent community, but if you think about it in terms of who this conference is aiming for – namely, conservative evangelical pastors in the greater Atlanta area, the majority are probably men and probably white.
Wait…. their allowing women to speak? Without their husbands their to oversee?
I, for one, will NOT be going.
He he… would be great if the snarky guy could grammar check… THERE
OH my oh my oh my… My husband was at a Pastor’s Conference once and it was suggested by my colleagues that he should attend the Pastor’s Wives track to make a point. He chose to read the paper in the beautiful lobby of the gorgeous hotel right by the fire instead. Who would blame him? Not I.
What’s wrong is that who can spare $79 right before Christmas? Extend the discount people so we can all go!
So does being snarky help us have a voice in the conversation for change, or does it disqualify us from a positive, life-changing relationship with the people we are so negative toward?
I never stated where I stood on the issue at hand, by the way. It seems that assumptions are being made all around… Do you honestly think, Dave, that those people on that poster believe those things? Why don’t you start a conversation with them to get a little more insight before you label them so.
Being a woman in an emerging ministry myself, I find this push for change very difficult, and I want to further the conversation with people who don’t get it- not cut them off…but that is just my viewpoint.
Confused, actually, yes, I do honestly think the people on that flier believe women are less than fully human. I have no choice but to think that as that is what the flier clearly displays. It is unmistakeable. I’m not labeling them – it’s right there on display. They’ve labeled themselves.
As for why I don’t start a conversation with them, that is a fair question. My only answer is that I just don’t have the patience for it anymore. It is unconscionable that this “debate” about women in ministry continues in so many churches. It’s 2011. I don’t understand how this even still needs to be said: of course women can and should lead churches! As pastors, teachers, superintendents, bishops, executive ministers…whatever positions exist, women can, should and must hold them.
Why don’t I have a conversation with the people of the flier? I can’t stomach it. If I may be so gauche as to quote myself paraphrasing the incomparable Mrs. Landingham (http://cantleaveunsaid.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/i-can-be-bothered-i-am-bothered/): if anyone can look any and all women they’ve ever known or cared about in the eye and tell them, “because of your genitalia you are not a full human being”, then, hell, I don’t even want to know you.
I agree that what they’re doing is wrong, but I personally wouldn’t go so far as to say they see women as somehow less than human. I think these people mean well, because they think they’re following God’s will, but they are grossly misinterpreting the cultural and historical context in which Paul was writing. That said, I agree that they are treating women as somewhat inferior, intentional or not.
Wow. Seriously you guys? I’m no expert but are we really thinking we can justifiably bash this conference, its founder and its speakers and label it as some sort of Christ-like good work? Good grief, aren’t there more important things going on that we could breathe life into instead of speaking all this death and making ourselves look like a bunch of hypocrites? This is exactly why non-Christians look at us and want to have nothing to do with Christianity.
The way I see it this conference is geared towards church planters and successful church planting. And statistically speaking there just so happens to be WAY more men church planters than women. If they listed a bunch of female main stage presenters they wouldn’t be speaking to their target audience they’d be wasting their time and the resources and vision God has given them. It’s called marketing. I think it’s pretty wise that they’re adding the pastors wives panel to intentionally pour more into the wife of a church planter and equipping them with tools and resources to further lead in and build the kingdom.
If God gives one of you a vision to create a conference aimed at women pastors leading well in the church, wouldn’t it just be better to pour your time and energy into starting one and maybe actually creating some change in a positive life giving way instead all this tearing down?
I know this is late to the conversation, but here is my response to the request for Biblical Snark:
The Good Samaritan was actually a Samaritan. The Prodigal Son was compelled by his misadventure away from the love of his father to survive on worse food than the garbage fed to pigs the most unclean of animals. The servant who received one talent and protectively buried it because he feared the well known wrath of the master and in the end was denied the love of the master because he failed to acknowledge truth of the master’s love. (Careful what you believe in, because you may one day find it fulfilled.) The accusation that the money changers had turned the Temple into a den a thieves. Woe to you Pharisees, for you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without realizing it.
And I am sure there are many more that don’t leap to my mind and yet many many more which I fail to appreciate because I don’t know the linguistic idioms of the Gospels.
WOW. I know several of these people for years, and you will not find more genuine, loving, and giving people.
These people are changing lives, and being the hands and feet of Jesus.
Maybe instead of bashing this conference (which I have been to and fully support), you should get off your duff and your computer and actually do something for Christ instead of bashing the men and women who are making a serious difference in the world.
I think having the women is amazing and the Lovejoy’s have put lot’s of prayer, fasting and effort into making this conference an effective one for people who are putting it all on the line to plant a church, and see people find Jesus.
Absolutely saddened by the way people on here are responding.
The $79 is worth the investment in your ministry. The relationships made and formed in REAL LIFE (not blog life) are irreplaceable and is worth it even if you could listen to podcast.