Who Would Jesus Vote For?

Who Would Jesus Vote For? August 15, 2016

If Jesus were here on earth, who do you think He’d vote for and why?

Is it Issues or Personalities?

Many times people vote just to make sure someone doesn’t get elected, and that’s our right, so many people will be voting against someone by voting for their opponent. They (and we) might be forced to vote for someone that they’re not that impressed with. Maybe it comes down to, the one with the most mud wins. There is so much mud-slinging in political ads today that it’s impossible to focus on the real issues. Isn’t that what they’re being elected for? Instead of looking at their political policies, they look for skeletons in the closet. These things make for good ratings, but rarely do they make us look at the critical issues facing this nation and in some cases, the question must be asked, “Do they come close to inciting street violence by their providing 24/7 coverage?

The Cash Cow

The “cash cow” for the liberal media keeps being fed by an audience that can’t get enough. The cow would die without being feed, but it is not starving. Tragedy, dirt, and scandal have become the focus. The result is, when you ask people on the streets what their candidate’s platform is (economy, jobs, deficit, immigration, terrorism, etc.), they often can’t tell you. All they know is who they’re voting for. Many of the candidates flip flop on social issues so often that it’s impossible to know where they stand on any given day. More often than not, we vote for the personality and not the platform. We don’t want to get “confused with the facts,” and with the media today, who really what the “facts” really are anymore? And what about the things “planted” by the media or political parties (and donors!) and “leaked” to the press?

Jesus-said-to-them (2)

Rendering unto Caesar

The Pharisees and Herodian’s were less than sincere in their intentions when they came up to Jesus. They intended to trap Him by asking, “Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone’s opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not” (Mark 12:14)? If Jesus said, yes, we must pay tribute to Caesar and not to God, they could stone Him or bring a charge against Him before the Sanhedrin (Jewish) Council. If He said no, then they could alert the Roman authorities that Jesus refuses to pay His taxes to Rome (and Caesar), and have Him arrested. Their intent was not to find truth…but to try and deceive the Truth (Jesus Christ). Knowing their hypocrisy, “Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at him” (Mark 12:17). Jesus would have us do the very same thing. Render unto God the things of God and unto our “Caesar” the things that our government is due, like taxes, obedience to traffic laws, and such. A citizen of the Kingdom must be a good citizen here and be displaying; what the Apostle Paul wrote; “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desire” (Galatians 6:22-24).

Personality over Party?

Do you vote for a candidate’s character or along party lines? Is it a checkmark for every candidate of the same party? I used to vote that way, decades ago, but I was not voting my conscience. I was voting in blind-pride for my party. If Jesus voted, do you think He would vote for the right to protect the unborn in an effort to protect human life? How about the right for freedom of speech, and in particular, freedom of religious speech? Would that be important to Him? Certainly, we should support a candidate that supports racial and gender equality because we know that God is no respecter of persons, and He will bring millions of His children into the kingdom, from all around the world (Rev 5:9-10). The national debt should be our concern too. I am reminded of Old Testament Scripture where Nehemiah rebuked the Jewish king for taking advantage of the Jews and wrote, “We have borrowed money for the king’s tax on our fields and our vineyards. Now our flesh is as the flesh of our brothers, our children are as their children. Yet we are forcing our sons and our daughters to be slaves, and some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but it is not in our power to help it, for other men have our fields and our vineyards” (Neh 5:4-5). That’s what this debt feels like to us, but can you imagine what it’ll be like for our children? We’re mortgaging the future on the instant gratification of today. Our nation’s mortgaged like a player playing a game of Boardwalk; ever single piece of property is mortgaged, and we can’t collect rent (only debt!).

Conclusion

Jesus doesn’t have to vote. He would not need to vote. It would be like a king voting to ensure he stays in office. A king has no term limits. He reigns forever. God is sovereign over all the nations. Someday that kingdom will be established and all human suffering, pain, sorrow, and even death will be gone (Rev 21:4). That day may be swiftly approaching, although we don’t know when that is, but while it is still today, I pray that you who are not saved, will read this and repent and turn to God, and then place your trust in Jesus Christ, because “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame” (Rom 10:11). It’s not so with the unsaved, because some will awake “to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan 12:2), and it will be far, far too late to do anything about it.

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren Church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Teaching Children the Gospel available on Amazon.

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  • pud

    Bla bla bla…self loathe, feel shame, heap guilt upon yourself, beg an invisible man made deity to forgive you so you won’t suffer hellfire….plead with invisible jesus…do as you’re told…sing ridiculous songs to no one there…bla bla bla…Juvenile nonsense…time to grow up jack

    • A more childish comment than the author’s article, for sure.

      • True! Pud! You act like child. Do you want treat as a baby?

        • Romans 13:1–7

          Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for she is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, tan avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

  • Kalifornia Kid

    Mr. Wellman,
    A thought provoking article. As for me, I used to vote for the man. Until I landed is Utah. I now vote for all the Democrats (there’s a button to do that) because I know the hundred of thousands of LDS (aka Mormons) will blindly vote Republican. I kinda feel like I am bringing balance to the state.
    I feel about this the same way I feel about people that pray for God to help their sports team win. I’ve got news for them. God Don’t Care. The best team will usually win and that’s how God set up reality. I totally agree with you as far as Jesus voting. (First of all He can’t vote, He’s not a citizen. Second of all, rulers are put in place by God.”There is no authority except from God” Romans 13:1–2. That’s way more powerful than voting.) Everyone should vote.
    You ask some interesting questions in your article – if Jesus voted, how would he vote. (I’m going to turn it around a bit…) Would Christ vote to allow women to chose what they feel is in their best interest? Be masters of their own body? It’s not (in my opinion) an easy to answer question.

    • @ “I now vote for all the Democrats (there’s a button to do that) because I
      know the hundred of thousands of LDS (aka Mormons) will blindly vote
      Republican.” That makes as much sense as voting for crooked Hillary because Trump is such an idiot. Don’t vote! It is immoral to do so in all cases, but never more so than this in this years presidential election.

      • Kalifornia Kid

        An interesting opinion Ned. Do you have any verse in the Bible to back up your opinion? Although He is talking about pay taxes (and we should be very careful about extending one meaning to another) Christ says to “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Mark 12:17 A citizen is expected to vote.

        • KK, thanks for your response to my comment.

          First let me try to disabuse you of what I consider the most serious misinterpretation of any Bible passage. When Jesus said “Give Caesar the things that belong to Caesar and to God the things that are God’s,” he meant exactly, precisely what he said and he choose his words carefully because he was well aware that the question, “Should we pay or should we not pay [Caesar’s tax]?” (Mark 12) was meant to trap him.so his enemies could immediately drag him before Pilate and charge him with sedition for opposing Caesar’s tax, which they were confident he would do. (Luke 20) His enemies were confident their deceitful question would accomplish their objective because they knew Jesus quite well for having tracked him and had their spies follow and question him for many months. They knew Jesus far better than those ignorant exegetes who say his response was an endorsement of paying taxes to Caesar and his approval of the authority and role of the violent Roman empire, an authority given to all human kingdoms by Satan himself. (Luke 4)

          But my friend, will you please read the words of Jesus’ response carefully to understand that his reply was a brilliant and powerful condemnation of Caesar’s “tribute” tax, which served as his instructions to his disciples not to pay the damn tax nor give tribute to Caesar, which is due to God alone according to Mosaic law. (Exodus [20:1-17] and Deuteronomy [5:6-21], particularly the First Commandment. It is important to know that the coin in question in this incident was a Roman denarius with a picture on it of Tiberius Caesar describing him as the “son of the divine Augustus.” Do you suppose Jesus would endorse paying “tribute” to such an imposter in support of his violent empire, whose taxes had reduced many of his Galilean disciples to the loss of their land and abject poverty?

          “Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar” means precisely what those words say, and if you have nothing belonging to Caesar, give him that–NOTHING! Those who say Jesus meant “pay your taxes” put their words into Jesus’ mouth–a contemptible thing to do. No one in the Roman Empire ever possessed anything belonging to Caesar. Caesar was a taker not a giver nor a lender. In fact anything he might claim as his own wasn’t his, for all of his possessions had been stolen from others by conquest, plunder, enslavement, taxation or other violent means of acquisition, all in violation of God’s law, “Thou shall not steal.” Jesus’ response was a powerful endorsement of the Mosaic laws and the Israelis’ customs establishing and protecting private property rights.

          As for what belongs to God and what to Caesar resjpectively, Scripture is emphatic, for in at least six places it is declared, as in Psalm 24:1, “The earth is the Lord’s and all that is in it,” which leaves nothing for poor old Caesar, and nothing is what Jesus would have those of us who are his disciples pay to the violent state to use for its wars, murders, theft (taxes) etc.

          Of course the handlers of those spies who were sent to trap Jesus (Matthew 22, Mark 12, Luke 20) were not baffled by Jesus’ response as were the stupid spies. When their spies told them what Jesus had responded to their devious question, they knew his answer was a public condemnation of Caesar’s tax. So they sent their henchmen to take him at night by force. Then they dragged him before Pilate, the man responsible to
          Rome for collecting Caesar’s tax in Judea, and accused him Jesus thus: “We found this man perverting the nation (Rome). He opposes the payment of taxes to Caesar….He has been causing rioting by his teaching from Galilee al the way here.” (Luke 23:1-5) Although the Gospels fail to say so, it is very likely it was for this reason Pilate crucified Jesus in a manner reserved by Roman law for crimes such as sedition.

          A “citizen” of a state governed by man-made laws is expected to vote by those representatives of Satan (Luke 4) holding public offices. Disciples of Jesus are exclusivelycitizens of the Kingdom of God, which does not recognize dual citizenship, nor the so-called (satanic) “authority” of those devilish folks to extort taxes or force them to acquiesce in and thereby indirectly participate in the violence of the state by giving it their sanction through the immoral act of voting.

          Keep the faith, Ned

          • Kalifornia Kid

            That is an opinion that I have not heard before and worth considering. However you don’t address the fact the Bible says “for there is no authority except that which God has established” (Rome 13). If God has established Caesar as a government leader then we must pay Caesar what is his.
            To make it more modern let’s skip some 2000 years and place it in the USA. If you don’t render unto Uncle Sam what belongs to Uncle Sam you will be spending time in prison and your money. Plus you are stealing from those of us that do pay taxes. Now if you don’t use anything taxes pay for such as schooling, police, fire, roads, defense and so on – THEN you might have a good reason to avoid paying taxes.
            So I’m afraid we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. I do like the fact you think outside the box.

          • God never established any human government. In fact God rebuked the Israelis when they choose a human government (a king) to replace him as their previously only lawmaker. Nowhere does the Bible say that God established a human government. You must read Romans 13 much more carefully to see that you err if you believe the authority to which Paul was referring was that of the beastly emperor Nero. But even if Romans 13 meant what you mistakenly think it means, I would point out that you quote Paul and ignore the words of Jesus: Who do you follow? I am a disciple of Jesus–not Paul.

            Paul was a Roman citizen and proud of i t (read Acts). Jesus was murdered by Rome authority pursuant to Roman law. Paul and Jesus certainly had different views regarding Rome. Given what Rome did to Jesus, it is remarkable to me that Paul never renounced his Roman citizenship. Instead he grasped it and used it like an amulet in times of danger instead of relying on God for his protection.

            Kid, let us deal in the truth, not fiction. I have successfully resisted paying income and employment taxes to the federal and state governments since 1971 and I haven’t been to prison. That is the truth.

            When you say such things as, “Plus you are stealing from those of us that do pay taxes,” I think you are standing truth on its head. The only reason you pay taxes is because you are afraid of the consequences the state threatens you with if you don’t pay. If you say you would pay them if you weren’t afraid not too, I would have to say you are fibbing. Taxes are stealing. They depend on force and violence for their collection. They are identical to the crime of extortion in every respect but one: tax collectors are granted immunity by the state in order to safely perpetrate their crimes. And since you evidently reap the benefits of taxation–schooling, police, fire, roads, defense and so on–you are guilty of extortion (stealing) as an accessory after the fact.

            How else might you obtain those goods the government provides you using other people’s money? If you were a disciple of Jesus you would know the answer: “Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.” (Matthew 6:33 New Living Translation)

            KK, I know you are aware that the taxes you pay are also used for things other than schools, roads, etc. As Randolph Bourne said, “War is the health of the state.” Your taxes are what make it possible for the state to war. Now since you are quick to claim the “good” things taxes pay for, I assume you also accept the fact that your taxes pay for the slaughter of millions at the hands, and with your taxes, of the state. Have you seen the pictures of the victims–mostly children–of the bombs your government dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Are you happy your taxes pay for such wickedness? Disciples of Jesus will have no part in such crimes.

          • Kalifornia Kid

            Well you’re wrong about me Ned. I proudly pay my taxes and unlike Trump (and many other people) pay what I owe. I call it paying my own way.
            Taxes like anything and everything else can be used for good or bad. I accept that some people will misuse tax money. Just as some people will misuse religion. I accept the misuse of religion has killed millions. Does that make religion wrong? How many Jews have been killed because a “Christian” (I use the term lightly here) has decided Jews killed (or caused the death) of Jesus Christ? Is it any wonder so many Jews hate the name of their messiah?
            Let’s take a great man like Martin Luther for example. He stood up to the Church while in the Church and when kicked out, started what became Protestantism or a branch of it. He cared about Jews at this point. But when he started his new church and invited the Jews, they wanted nothing to do with Martin or his religion, they had their own. This angered Martin and he wrote a number of anti-Judaism papers later used by the Nazis and others to justify murdering millions of Jews. So was Martin Luther a great man or an evil man? He, of course was both.
            A lot of people justify not paying taxes for a lot of reasons. If you pay no taxes, yes indeed people can’t do bad things with your money. But they also can’t do good things.
            You are on a very very slippery slope when you ask if someone follows Jesus or Paul. In simple terms, either the Bible is the Word or it’s not. No one gets to pick and choose.
            ” All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
            2 Timothy 3:16-17
            Your story of not paying taxes reminds me of the time in a form a kid bragged about having sex with his passed out mother. No matter what people wrote, no matter what they said no matter how the pointed out the law, he insisted he’d done nothing wrong. So I say to you what I thought was the best reply, if you truly believe you have done nothing wrong then (in his case, tell your Mom what you have done) tell the authorities what you have done. If you are right and God is with you on this, you have no reason to expect any problems.
            Finally let’s read what John the Baptist has to say:
            Luke 3:11-16 John answered them, “The person who has two tunics must share with the person who has none, and the person who has food must do likewise.” Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what should we do?” He told them, “Collect no more than you are required to.” Then some soldiers also asked him, “And as for us—what should we do?” He told them, “Take money from no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your pay.” While the people were filled with anticipation and they all wondered whether perhaps John could be the Christ, John answered them all, “I baptize you with water, but one more powerful than I am is coming—I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

          • Paying your own way is what you do when you go to the grocery store and pay the cashier, unfortunately in most of the states with a sales tax added at the cash register which you have no way of avoiding so you pay. Unless you are reaping more in taxes than you pay, you only pay because you have no choice in the matter. If you think otherwise, you are only kidding yourself–not me. All taxes include enFORCEment provisions, and those provisions are put there for you and me because we wouldn’t pay otherwise.

            KK, you say, “You are on a very very slippery slope when you ask if someone follows Jesus or Paul. In simple terms, either the Bible is the Word or it’s not. No one gets to pick and choose.”

            Wrong! Everyone picks and chooses–bar none!–if for no other reason than the contradictions.

            KK, you say, “If you pay no taxes, yes indeed people can’t do bad things with your money. But they also can’t do good things.” That statement is ludicrous, A Mafia Don can do good things for his children and others with the money he extorts from his victims, but does that justify his crimes?

            Regarding John the Baptist, he was a herald not a follower of Jesus. He did not have the advantage of Jesus’ teaching regarding taxes. (Jesus said, “Then the sons are exempt.”–Matthew 17)) Furthermore, a tax collector prohibited by the Baptist to use violence could not function as a tax collector. Violence, or the very real threat of it, is how taxes were collected then, just as they are now. And that, by the way, is why Jesus condemned taxes. Instead of allowing tax collectors to continue in their odious occupations, Jesus would have told them “Follow me,” as he told Matthew and Levi. (Matthew 9:9, Luke 5:27) And recall what Jesus said about John, “Even the least in the kingdom of God is greater than John.” That means me–and you, if you by the means Jesus’ taught will join his disciples in God’s kingdom. Jesus’ primary method of overthrowing the Roman Empire was by saving Rome’s tax collectors one by one. That may be why Pilate killed him since Zacchaeus was one of Pilate chief tax collectors. Imagine how much Z’s salvation cost Rome in taxes.

            KK, ask yourself: How can a tax collector practices his odious profession and follow Jesus’ foremost prescriptions for righteous living? The tax collector cannot do unto others as he would have done to him, for that principle alone would stop him from collecting taxes by force and coercion, which is the only way taxes can be collected. Nor can he love his neighbor as himself while coercing his neighbor to give him their money. If every tax collector followed Jesus’ teaching, no taxes would be collected and the evil empires we call nation states would all fall down. I’m sure that is what Jesus had in mind for Rome, and that is what eventually happened to Rome. You may deny it, but when you share in the lucre of the tax collectors by proudly paying and willingly garnering benefits derived from OPM, you are an accomplice in the tax collectors crimes.(OPM: sounds like opium, is equally addicting, stands for Other People’s Money–forcibly extorted.)

          • KK, I meant to respond to the odious and brazenly provocative statement you made in the following paragraph of you post::

            @ “Your story of not paying taxes reminds me of the time in a form a kid bragged about having sex with his passed out mother. No matter what people wrote, no matter what they said no matter how the pointed out the law, he insisted he’d done nothing wrong. So I say to you what I
            thought was the best reply, if you truly believe you have done nothing wrong then (in his case, tell your Mom what you have done) tell the authorities what you have done. If you are right and God is with you on this, you have no reason to expect any problems.”

            In the first place, I must disabuse you of your assumption that I haven’t informed the authorities because I most assuredly have. (You are welcome to report me to the IRS, DOJ, FBI, or anyone else by referring them to this thread on this form.) In my case, I notified the IRS, the Department of Treasury, and a Federal Court judge that I don’t and won’t pay their unconstitutional taxes nor provide them with the busybody information they asked me to give them. I do not like to question your intelligence, but anyone who makes such an assumption as you did without any grounds on which to base it invites being labeled with various epithets relating to one’s inability to grasp simple logical principles. Here is how I informed those authorities: On IRS 1040 forms for the years 1976 through 199-something, at which point I stopped bothering with the charade, I placed a statement in bold, black, block letters across a 1040EZ from, signed it and sent in to the authorities. The statement read: I WILL NOT PROVIDE THE INFORMATION REQUESTED HEREIN UNLESS THE DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY WILL ASSURE ME THAT IN SO DOING ALL OF MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AS A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES WILL REMAIN INVIOLATE.

            Treasury never provided me with the required assurance, and I never provided the IRS with any information–or money. It has been 45 years since I stopped paying income or employment taxes (SS, etc.), and while it is impossible to know the future or know what those thugs who work for government will do tomorrow, you may rest assured that in full confidence in the love and power of God as expressed by my Savior, Jesus of Nazareth, I KNOW no harm can ever come to me so long as I keep close to Him and try, however ineptly, to seek to know and do His will.

            And now that you know the truth, that income and employment taxes are levied and collected in violation of the Constitution, I hope you too will begin to assert your freedom, stop paying the extortionists, and take back your life from the hands of the Malemutes. (http://takelifeback.com/)

            KK, If you are willing to give up your dependence on the almighty state and its benefits, you may join with the disciples of Jesus in the Kingdom of God where you will be welcomed warmly. You don’t have to be a tax slave, feed at the government trough, and worship at the government’s alter. Here are a couple of website that might help you see the light: http://jesus-versus-taxes.com/ and https://jesusontaxes.liberty.me/ http://secular.embassyofheaven.com/churchstate/jesuspaidtaxes.php

          • Kalifornia Kid

            Ned Netterville,
            I would not report you because I believe it’s between you and God (or the IRS). If you have reported yourself and still pay no taxes than more power to you.
            That said I still you are in the wrong and you will answer for it in the future. If as you believe Christ was saying not to pay taxes why did he pay the Temple tax as in Matthew 17:24-27, where we learn that Jesus did indeed pay taxes:

            After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”

            “Yes, he does,” he replied.

            When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?”

            “From others,” Peter answered.

            “Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him. “But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.” (NIV)

            The Apostle Paul taught, “This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor” (Romans 13:6-7).

            The problem is Ned we can spin the Bible and make it say whatever we want. If we’re homosexual we can get it to say being gay is good (or at least not bad). We can (as you are doing with Jesus and render unto Caeser) read between the line and see things that aren’t there.
            For me I take what the Bible says at face value. If Jesus didn’t want me to pay taxes, he’d plainly say so.
            Because there is no chance I will change your mind nor any chance you will change mine. I am willing to wait until I can ask him in person to find the answer.

          • KK, your nasty insinuations are becoming tiresome. If they continue, I will be compelled to suspect that the little boy you told about who had intercourse with his mother while she was passed out, and saw nothing wrong with what he had done, was you?

            Kid, I have not told you to read between the lines as you dishonestly state, I am and have been telling you to read the Bible and stop putting unwarranted interpretations on the words therein. Of course I know they aren’t your own interpretations, which would require some original thinking, but rather they are interpretations you have been taught by those high priests of a Church that has been co-opted by the violent state and serves the state rather than Jesus Christ. Your comments here on Matthew 17 are a perfect example of your inability to read what is written rather than what you have been told to think by someone with a vested personal interest in the lucre taxation.

            Kid, you say, “If as you believe Christ was saying not to pay taxes why did he pay the Temple tax as in Matthew 17:24-27, where we learn that Jesus did indeed pay taxes:”

            Kidi If you can show me anywhere in the Gospel of Matthew or anywhere else in the New Testament where the Bible says Jesus paid a tax–any tax–I will apologize and allow that you aren’t as stupid as the statement of yours I just quoted makes you sound. Go back and read Matthew 17 and then tell me exactly, which verse says Jesus paid any tax. I guarantee you that in trying to find a verse saying Jesus paid any tax, you may, if you can be honest with yourself, discover that what you think you “learned” about Jesus from Matthew 17 is absolutely wrong.

            Now, Kid, with the same motive I imagine Jesus had when he kindly instructed Peter to go fishing, I am instructing you to go to this link ( https://jesusontaxes.liberty.me/matthew-17-a-fishy-tale/ ) where you may learn what Matthew 17:really says, and what it should mean to you.

            Now, Kid, after having corrected you on so many of the errors you have made in understanding both the Gospels and as a result Jesus himself, it would not be amiss for me to expect an apology. However, since Jesus never required Peter to apologize for his many blundering misunderstandings of Jesus, like the one made manifest in the incident with the tax collectors recorded in Matthew 17, I won’t demand an apology from you. I only ask you to begin to read the Gospels with the understanding of one whose loyalty is not divided between God and the “almighty” nation state. Worship God alone and serve Him only, and you too may discover the joys to be had through true freedom. Peace!

          • Kid, I want to show you one other clear example of your failure to read carefully so that you don’t fall into the trap of misunderstanding. This is important and necessary for communicating with with others and for learning the intended messsage from the written word. It is also necessary in conversations that you listen carefully to when others are speaking, even when you don’t like what you are hearing lest you misinterpret the other person and embarrass yourself.

            Here is a quote from you last post: “If you have reported yourself and still pay no taxes than more power to you.”

            Did I ever say, I pay no taxes?” That again is an assumption you’ve made, and again it is wrong. I never said I paid no taxes. Go back on look.

            There are many indirect taxes I have yet to find a way to avoid without giving up buying some things I need or want–including food in my state. When a sales clerk scans an item I am purchasing, the computer adds sales tax to the price marked on the item. I often will say to the clerk, “Wait a minute. This tag says the price is $10 and you are trying to charge me $10.93. The clerk, almost always puzzled by the conundrum I’ve called to his or her attention, will usually look at the computer screen or sales slip. Then a look of comprehension will flash, and he or she will say something like, “Oh, that price includes the tax.” And I will respond, particularly if the clerk is female and I am in in the Bible Belt or Utah, “Oh, so you’re a tax collector? Do you know that Jesus referred to tax collectors and prostitutes as similarly compromised sinners?”

            If you reply to anything I’ve said here, make sure you read my words carefully so you don’t entrap yourself again. Also, please drop such suggestive comments as, “If you have reported yourself…” I told you I have, and I have given you no reason to express doubt in what I say. The only palpable lie I’m aware of in our exchange on this thread is your claim that you are “proud” to pay taxes. I’m close to eighty years old, and I’ve never known anyone who was “proud” to pay taxes, so I’m convinced your claim was either hyperbole or a lie. No one on earth is proud to pay taxes. Being proud of being forced to do something is either: 1,. insane; or 2, a claim by a tax consumer who sucks up more OPM than he pays in taxes, or 3. the claim of someone who has been so completely brainwashed by his church or government that he will believe any lie told to him, and even then I will doubt he is really proud of paying something he has been forced to pay. Regarding those who receive more of other people’s money than they pay in taxes, even they would prefer not to have to pay. Indeed, someone who lives off the sweat of another person’s labor forcibly obtained is so immoral that they would not pay any tax they think they can escape without being caught. All of these folks are like the young ruler who wouldn’t give up his wealth and accept Jesus’ invitation to follow him. The simply love money and the security money only seems to give them.

          • Jack Wellman

            So do you expect us to rip out Romans 13:1-2 which clearly says, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment?” Rome didn’t do this to Jesus alone…we all put Jesus on the cross.

          • Jack, thank you for your question. There are many ways to understand Romans 13:1-7 other than the way that orthodox exegetes have been explaining it ever since the Church was subsumed by the Roman empire under Constantine and its hierarchy began to share in the lucre of Roman taxes., What better way to keep the unwashed masses faithfully paying the taxes you live on than by telling them the Bible says, “Pay your taxes?” I have offered three contrarian interpretations here: https://jesusontaxes.liberty.me/romans-13/ I hope you will read it, It isn’t very long

            I think the best way to contrast and refute Pau’s admonition in Romans–if the words in 13:1-7 are really his–is to quote some of the many contrasting words Jesus spoke that are recorded in the four Gospels, words which directly challenge Paul’s, and I then ask: “Who are you going to believe? Who are you going to follow? Jesus or Paul?.Jesus (and Moses in the First Commandment) said, “Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.” (Luke 4:8)

            Here is another explanation that will take you off the tax collector’s hook with which Paul’s words only SEEM to catch you. Paul said, “Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor
            is due.”

            Notice, Jack, that Paul didn’t say “pay Rome,” or pay Caesar.” If Paul had learned about the way Jesus responded to the entrapping question asked of him about paying taxes to Caesar (see the linked article and my explanation of his response to KK on this thread), than his comment on taxes makes perfect sense for he was simply copying Jesus’ way of avoiding entrapment by duplicitous adversaries. Paul’s words clearly convey the meaning that f no taxes are due, don’t–for God’s sake–pay them..I completely agree with Paul’s admonition because I know he didn’t mean any of those things due—taxes, revenue, respect, honor–were ever DUE to the violent state.

            Jack, If you understand the man-made institution of taxation, you know a tax is never due unless and until it has been lawfully “assessed.” In the case of the U.S. individual income tax that assessment is made by the taxpayer by filing a tax return (Form 1040), computing the amount “due,” and signing the return under oath attesting the correctness of the assessment. If you don’t sign and file a tax return, no tax is “due.” That procedure hasn’t change since Roman times, the only important difference is that under Rome’s system the tax collector made the assessment rather than the tax payer. Thanks for engaging in the discussion.

    • Jack Wellman

      What is the largest issue of these candidates? For me, life is the most precious thing. I therefore vote for those who try to save lives (pro-life). I find few Democrats at all that are prolife.

      • Kalifornia Kid

        Hello Jack,
        Missed this post so… First are you really pro life or just anti abortion? There is a huge difference between the two. I am against abortion but overriding that I am pro choice – that it is a woman’s decision. Of all the things God gave us when He made us in Their image Choice is perhaps the most important and God like. To take that away from people is wrong. To help them make the best choice is what religion SHOULD be all about.
        Republicans should start providing a choice that a woman can make that will cause her to avoid abortion such as free or low price day care, training for a GOOD job, help with family planning, financial help (all Democratic ideas) and more – instead of whining about “wasting” tax money on the poor. I believe that the vast majority of females that had a realistic choice would rather not go down the road of abortion, but the feel they have no real choice.

        Second, the problem I have with a one issue vote (no matter how big you see it) is that someone like an Adolf Hitler can solve that one issue while doing ungodly things. If we were there in Germany in 1933 and Adolf was getting out the vote (“Make Germany Great Again”) and SAID he was against abortion, I think he’d have your vote. After all Adolf SAID he was a Christian and quoted a few verses of scripture – 1923 “In the Bible we find the text, ‘That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.’ This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day. He who would pursue the golden mean must surrender the hope of achieving the great and the greatest aims.” [Speech delivered at 10 April 1923; from Adolf Hitler (1973). My New Order. New York: Octagon Books. p. 47.] Adolf was against abortion [for German women only and only as long as the baby was perfect]).
        “In Nazi Germany, abortion resulted in the death penalty for Aryan women, but was forced upon other ‘inferior’ members of society. Abortion played a prominent part in Nazi eugenics, ‘cleansing’ those seen as undesirable. The Nazis believed the woman’s body belonged to the state, and they would decide whether a pregnancy would be carried out. Jews, Gypsies, and other groups would be killed if they did not carry out a state-mandated abortion.”
        http://www.conservapedia.com/Abortion_and_Adolf_Hitler

        As I understand it, the way Hitler’s antisemitism was seen at the time – 1920’s and 1930’s was it was a “little” thing, blaming the Jews for everything that was wrong in German society – heck, even the Jews knew it was just temporary – to get the population to vote for him. It would stop as soon as Hitler was elected. They were of course wrong.

        I know you must be a busy man so to sum up my feelings – if Donald Trump wins, our Father in Heaven will have finally turned his back on our country (and we certainly deserve it and have for a LONG time). (As Ruth Graham has said – “If God Doesn’t Punish America, He’ll Have to Apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!”) I’ve have NEVER felt that way about a candidate before but I have no real doubt about Mr. Trump. The ONLY good thing about it for me personally is that it is a Republican that does us in. I have always felt Christians should be in this world but not of this world and tying themselves to the Republican Party was THE WORSE mistake American Christians have ever made bar none. And for the rest of eternity, I am going to remind my fellow Christians of that fact. So you have been warned Brother. May you have a long life and wonderful life.

    • Where in the Bible do you see God establishing a human government, unless it was meant to punish a stiff-necked people?

  • @ “Jesus would have us do the very same thing. Render unto God the things
    of God and unto our “Caesar” the things that our government is due, like
    taxes, obedience to traffic laws, and such.”

    Jack, you seriously misunderstand Jesus. “Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar means exactly what it says, and Jesus meant it exactly that way. His brilliant response was a simple, plain and indisputable statement on how to righteously treat the property of others in your possession. If you have anything belonging to Caesar (or the state), give it back, and, of course, if you have nothing of Caesar’s give him that–viz., nothing! Not taxes, not obedience to any of Caesar’s laws except those that mimic God’s laws and are redundant. No one in the Roman Empire ever had anything belonging to Caesar. he was a taker, not a giver nor a lender. All that he might professed to own was stolen from others by conquest, plunder, slavery and forcible taxation. Jesus would never endorse paying tribute to a rogue like Tiberius Caesar who professed to be the son of the god, Augustus. Furthermore the OT says at least six times, as in Psalm 24, verse 1: “The earth is the Lord’s and all that is in it,” which leaves nothing for poor old Caesar, and nothing is what Jesus told those with ears to hear what the ought to do about Caesar thieving tax: “Don’t pay it!” Those spies who were sent to trap Jesus with their trick question were befuddled by his brilliant response, but the chief priests and/or Pharisees who concocted the plot weren’t fooled. They too knew exactly what Jesus meant. So when they dragged Jesus before Pilate, who was responsible for collecting Rome’s taxes in Judea, they accused him of “forbidding the payment of taxes to Caesar” and “causing riots by his teaching.” (Luke Chapter 23, versus 1-5, excerpt) And Pilate executed Jesus, most likely for that reason. http://jesus-versus-taxes.com/

    • Kalifornia Kid

      Ah sorry, I answered below before I noticed this.
      Seems to me you are ignoring Romans 13:1. Simply put, if God has set up our government then not paying taxes is stealing, (since we are using things that other people who pay their taxes have paid for) and not voting is not doing what is expected from the citizens of this country.
      http://www.bible-history.com/taxcollectors/TAXCOLLECTORSJesus_and_the_Tax_Collectors.htm

      • KK, ah, sorry, God didn’t set up human governments. That was man’s doing, and when the Hebrews opted for human government (a king), God told Samuel they were rejecting him as their lawgiver and had Samuel warn them of the dire consequences of doing so, but they went ahead anyway.. (1 Sam. 8)

        FYI: Jesus didn’t write Romans. That was Paul. I’m a disciple of Jesus, not Paul. How about you? And as I read Roman’s 13:1-7, I think Paul was using Irony. Remember, he was writing from Corinth and his letter had to travel by a messenger on a long journey through territory tightly controlled by Roman administrators, anyone of whom could demand to see the letter he was carrying. Paul probably inserted 1-7 in hopes that if it was read by a Roman in authority he would find that cossetting passage pleasing and would not destroyed it. If you will continue reading his letter you will see that Romans 8-10 essentially refutes any necessity of submitting to government authority, for as Paul puts it, “Love is the fulfillment of the law.”

        Shalom.

  • Question: “Does God expect Christians to vote?”

    Answer: It is our contention that it is the duty and responsibility of every Christian to vote and to vote for leaders who promote Christian principles. God is most certainly in control, but that does not mean we should do nothing to further His will. We are commanded to pray for our leaders (1 Timothy 2:1-4). In terms of politics and leadership, there is evidence in Scripture that God has been displeased with our choices of leadership at times (Hosea 8:4). The evidence of sin’s grip on this world is everywhere. Much of the suffering on earth is because of godless leadership (Proverbs 28:12). Scripture gives Christians instructions to obey legitimate authority unless it contradicts the Lord’s commands (Acts 5:27-29; Romans 13:1-7). As born-again believers, we ought to strive to choose leaders who will be themselves led by our Creator (1 Samuel 12:13-25). Candidates or proposals that violate the Bible’s commands for life, family, marriage, or faith should never be supported (Proverbs 14:34). Christians should vote as led through prayer and study of both God’s Word and the realities of the choices on the ballot.

    Christians in many countries in this world are oppressed and persecuted. They suffer under governments they are powerless to change and governments that hate their faith and silence their voices. These believers preach the gospel of Jesus Christ at risk of their own lives. In the U.S.A., Christians have been blessed with the right to speak about and choose their leaders without fearing for themselves or their families. In the U.S.A., in recent elections, about 2 of every 5 of self-professed Christians took that right for granted and did not vote. About 1 in 5 self-professed, eligible Christians are not even registered to vote.

    In our day and age, there are many who want to drive the name and message of Christ completely out of the public arena. Voting is an opportunity to promote, protect, and preserve godly government. Passing up that opportunity means letting those who would denigrate the name of Christ have their way in our lives. The leaders we elect—or do nothing to remove—have great influence on our freedoms. They can choose to protect our right to worship and spread the gospel, or they can restrict those rights. They can lead our nation toward righteousness or toward moral disaster. As Christians, we should stand up and follow our command to fulfill our civic duties (Matthew 22:21).

    • The devil led him (Jesus) up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

      Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'”–Gospel of Luke, Ch 4, verses 5-8.(NIV)

      When Satan referred to “all” the kingdoms, do you suppose as I do he included the United States?

      • Jack Wellman

        Great question. The US of course didn’t exist then and what was shown to Jesus was not even in existence then, so I would say no.

        • Hmmm. You may be right, but if Satan’s professed authority over kingdoms is manifest in their reliance on violence, his determination of who shall possess such unholy authority may well pertain to the US. Might not the devil’s formidable powers extend into the future?