To Those Christians Who Say, “God Doesn’t Give Us More Than We Can Handle”

To Those Christians Who Say, “God Doesn’t Give Us More Than We Can Handle” October 12, 2017

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So, when someone is going through a really hard time you’ve been known to say, “God doesn’t give us more than we can handle” from time to time.

You mean well, I get it. You’re trying to encourage and comfort, and certainly your intent is good. Back in the day I said that as well.

When people are going through a difficult and painful life chapter, it can make those on the peripheral of a painful story deeply uncomfortable. It’s hard to watch others who are hurting, and it’s even harder knowing that we might not have any real solutions that would lessen their pain or improve their plight.

So, we “appeal to the mysterious” when all things tangible come up empty.

“God doesn’t give us more than we can handle” somehow flows from the lips of the one who wants to comfort, but who subconsciously knows nothing will.

But here’s the problem: Those words aren’t actually comforting to us the way you hope or intend them to be. So here’s a few reasons why many of us who are experiencing painful life chapters would *really* like you to plllleeeeaaase stop saying this to us:

First up, this quote is a twisting of Scripture. The actual verse in reference (1 Corinthians 10:13) is actually referencing temptation to sin, and says that God will not place us in a situation where a temptation to do wrong is irresistible, but will always give us a “way of escape.” Essentially, it’s a verse that puts the responsibility for our own sinful choices on ourselves, and reminds us that none of us are locked into making a sinful decision. Instead, it’s a verse that reminds us we’re capable of not doing the things we shouldn’t do.

None of this has anything to do with the heaping, painful burdens and sadness of life.

Not even close.

Second, when you use this phrase in hard moments, it makes it sound as if all the horrible things in our life came from God. Can you pause for a moment and imagine how that might feel to us?

When you use the words “God” and “gives” in the sentence that way, what we hear is:

God gave the cancer.

God caused the car accident.

God took the child.

God sparked the fire or blew in the hurricane.

God gave you this horrible pain.

Please consider that what you’re telling us– and in the midst of our despair no less– is that the very things that make us question if we’ll wake up breathing tomorrow, are all things that God somehow did to us. Instead of being the one safe place we can turn for comfort and solace, you turn God into the ultimate source of all of our pain and sorrow.

When you say that God did this, even subtly or unintentionally, you take away the one thing so many of us desperately need– the comfort of God, and to be comforted knowing that this wasn’t God’s doing.

Think about it: if someone gave you a black eye and a busted lip, would that person be the one you’d want to seek for comfort? Um, no.

We need to know God sees our hurt, that God feels it, that God empathizes with it, and that God grieves with us. We’d like to know you do too– but we can’t experience those things in the same moment that some well-meaning person is telling us that God “gave us” this unbearable pain.

Besides conveying the subtle but destructive belief that God gave us these wounds, what I’d really like you to know is that saying, “God won’t give us more than we can handle” usually happens in a moment when it feels like what we’re facing actually is more than we can handle. This is *incredibly* invalidating in a moment when what we actually need most is to feel seen and to have our pain recognized.

For the one who has had to say a final goodbye to their own child, that painful chapter of life feels like it’s more than we can handle. For some parents, and certainly some marriages, it actually is more than what can be handled.

For the one who lost their home and every last belonging, for the one who just got the diagnosis they never imagined they’d receive, for the one who is in the darkest of nights even when the sun is beating down with a fierce heat… having the burden of those life-sucking moments dismissed by being told God isn’t giving us “more than we can handle” is pretty much dead last on the list of things we need to hear.

But like I said at the beginning, I know you mean well and your heart is in the right place. So let me offer an alternative:

Just “be” with us.

Sit. Listen. Pass a tissue.

Offer a hug. Be okay with uncomfortable silence.

And yes, you can offer encouraging words, too. Just not those words, please.

If your intention is to remind us that we’re strong, then by all means– remind us we’re strong. Remind us of the times in our life when you’ve witnessed our strength, remind us of the qualities that are good and right about us. Remind us of the things that are true about us.

Remind us that you care, and that you’re here for us– that you’re here to just “be” with us, through it all.

Remind us that we’re not alone in this dark place.

But please, just please– don’t tell us that God won’t give us more than we can handle, because those words don’t do for us what intend them to do.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Jay Hoyt Rodgers

    But here’s the problem that needs to be addressed, Ben: 1. Did God create the universe and everything in it? YES. 2. Does evil exist? YES. So if “1” and “2” are both true (and they are), then God created evil. . . . . your thoughts?

  • Nimblewill

    Do I create a shadow when I block out the light? Let me answer: A shadow is nothing but the absence of light. I can’t create a shadow. Evil is the absence of good. Evil is a void. God created and everything was very good. When good is blocked, evil fills the void. God didn’t create evil.

  • Nimblewill

    I’ve never understood this anyway. Everything is handled in one way or the other. Divorce is handling it. Suicide is handling it. Isn’t it?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I would say God makes us with the ability to create things for ourselves. God made Beethoven, but Beethoven wrote his symphonies; this is free will. The flip side is we can also destroy and distort creation and make flawed things, which are the cause of evil (for ourselves individually, for others directly and as contributing generally to the “facts on the ground” for how things are).

  • Thanks for writing this sensitive article. A husband and 3 preschoolers here lost their 33-year-old mom to sudden cancer, yet Christians were stating stuff like this, and that God’s reason for the cancer, also, was because then at her funeral, people were “saved.” An infant is born disable and brain-damaged. God sent her to help her parents learn patience…ad nauseum:_(

    The difficulty in all of this is that actually many, maybe most, Christian leaders (at least in Evangelical and creedal Christianity) do think that God wills/plans/ordains all evil, all natural disasters, all diseases, all immoral and unethical choices.

    So do all orthodox Muslim leaders.

    So do a number of Jewish rabbis. They claim that God even “created evil”!! See Rabbi Davil Zaslow commentary on the Hebrew Bible:
    “We want to say that “God is love,” but we have to recognize that God is also the opposite of love…God says…I make peace, and create evil. I do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7

    It seems that generally, religion makes God the author of everything.

    That’s why after 55 years as a committed liberal Christian (Anabaptist, then Quaker), I finally gave up on Christianity.

    But, Ben, I’m glad you are standing against this negative stuff that seems to be everywhere of late in American Christianity.

  • Richard Lambert

    I think of it more like this. Even if God created evil (and do not believe this is quite the case), then it is still our duty to work goodness within it. It seems absurd to me to think of someone else’s anguish as a punishment for sin, and because of that, suppose I’m alleviated of the responsibility to provide comedies in their suffering. It’s similar to what’s discussed in this article … people trying to comfort with platitudes to imply that God put this burden on you because you were strong enough… but yet we’re still called to bare each other’s burdens. :/

  • Etranger

    There is an excellent New York Times article on the Rohingya atrocities in Myanmar. You have to read the story and wonder how the woman who is profiled would be comforted by the phrase. She is a believer so perhaps she will take it in stride like many religious people do. If God does not give the struggles how can we claim he gives the good times? In the face of so many tragedies in the world, I think it is better (not more comforting necessarily) to think it is dumb luck. 22 years ago I had to leave religion (Christianity) because I failed to see how a God who favored some and didn’t care about many was worth idolizing.

    Of course, implied in the saying you discuss is that if you can’t overcome your problems a) you have an imperfect faith in God and/or b) you are a very weak person. Both are such nice, comforting thoughts aren’t they? :)

  • gimpi1

    “Please consider that what you’re telling us– and in the midst of our despair no less– is that the very things that make us question if we’ll wake up breathing tomorrow, are all things that God somehow did to us. Instead of being the one safe place we can turn for comfort and solace, you turn God into the ultimate source of all of our pain and sorrow.”

    This is well thought out. Factually, people do get more than they can handle. People lose jobs, and discover that they’re ‘too old’ to be seriously considered for most responsible jobs – and they’re too old to physically do most ‘starter’ jobs. People get sick and find out that their condition can’t be cured – only managed – and that the co-pays on drugs to manage it cost more than they earn. People find out that their spouse is cheating or wants a divorce. People are abused by their spouses. People have kids develop a mental illness that not only tears the family apart, but makes the parent actually afraid of their child. People get hit by a natural disaster and then discover that without aid that may not be in the offing, they will never rebuild their lives. People are murdered, leaving a grieving and devastated family to attempt to pick up the pieces. All of these things happen every day, and many people simply don’t survive them.

    To claim that all this is “God’s will” and that it’s somehow good is one of the better arguments for Atheism. It portrays God as a monster. Instead, if people can see themselves as part of their God’s solution to the pain of life, perhaps we could actually do some things that will really help – get a rational system in place for providing for health care, including mental health care or honestly looking at what it takes to get a community on its feet after a disaster – for instance.

    We can’t solve everything, but we can help each other. Helping starts with really listening – trying to really understand the problems people are having without platitudes or judgement. Shut up and listen. (I need to remember that myself.) Then, consider what you can really do to make things better, not just for the person in front of you, but for others in similar situations. Above all, don’t tell them their pain is “God’s will” or “a result of sin.” Talk about kicking someone when they’re down…

  • Iain Lovejoy

    If you are looking for a phrase to replace it with, you could do worse than “Christ is risen!”.
    On Easter Saturday Jesus was dead, tortured to death at the instigation of God’s own priests appointed to his own temple, turned on by his own people, betrayed by Judas, one of his own, denied by Peter, his rock, and with all his disciples scattered and fled.
    On Easter Saturday the disciples had been given considerably more than they could bear. The guilt on Judas was such that he killed himself in despair. Things could not have been worse.
    But in the morning the tomb was empty: God made good.
    “‘Christ is risen!’ and have faith that God will, somehow, make good.” seems to me to be a more comforting thing to say in these circumstances.

  • Thanks for writing this. There’s a flip-side (which I wrote about in my corner of Patheos earlier this year: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/goodandtruth/2017/02/grievers-say-things-not-supposed-to/ ) – when mourners themselves say theologically incorrect things like this, the advice is the same. Sit with them. Be with them. Listen to them. Yeah, in the long run that idea of a God who “gives” pain is going to cause them problems. But the middle of their grief isn’t the time to correct their theology.

  • Jesus even said God had forsaken him at the very second before his last breath. I suffer from a chronic illness and every day I wish I had not woke up. My parents were both profoundly mentally ill and froze me, emotionally, out of their lives. My sister lost her 15 month old to crib death. She died of Lou Gehrig’s disease. I think when Life On Life’s terms are set up in such a way that one must seek to find reasons and wisdom for one’s tragedies, dramas one is likely to have a mystical revelation about how the God who never leaves and never forsakes in times of trouble is a profound paradox!! I think if one has gotten down to the Bare Bones of it and is still breathing on this side of the grave then the resurrection means something!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/79704051dcef9b8af42a79bbed0bd542f36e0a36c44265e1b2d3f0146090650c.jpg

  • Jon Altman

    Do you mean if I’d been a weaker person, this terrible thing wouldn’t have happened?

  • rika888

    Thank you. And add to it this phrase: It’s in God’s Plan….Uh, then HE must be a sadistic God. I don’t believe that the GOD OF LOVE has planned for excruciating suffering and despair.

  • Marie Halligan

    Well said!I was a nurse for nearly 20 years and I know first hand that God frequently allows people to go through more than they can handle;the psychiatric units are full of such people! I also worked with child victims and adult survivors of serious abuse- it always seriously wounds people, sometimes damaging them long-term or even for life- that means it’s more than they can handle! Schizophrenia is the ultimate sign of someone having suffered more than they can handle and for many years I struggled to reconcile this with my faith.Ultimately,I realise God does NOT do these things to people-PEOPLE DO! The Orthodox have a way of explaining evil I really like- they regard evil as a sort of spiritual pollution; every sin we commit adds to this pollution and the worse the sin,the worse it pollutes! Repentance,atonement and good deeds act as spiritual cleaning and freshening!So,it is sin- EVIL- that causes our sufferings in this world and we all contribute to a greater or lesser degree.Evil and sin don’t have any compassion nor conscience and revel in dishing out more than people can handle- just ask any child abuse survivor! God bless!

  • Marie Halligan

    I agree- if suffering was a punishment for sin,how come the saints suffer so much- St Bernadette had chronic astmha as a child and then died of TB for instance- and how come baptised children under 7 who are free from original sin and can’t commit sin suffer and die,like Charlie Gard? God doesn’t punish us,we adults who can and do sin bring it on ourselves and sadly,it is often more than people can handle and causes suffering to the innocent as well.Thankfully,prayer,repentance and good deeds,including bearing another’s burdens as you point out, counteract sin because of Our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross and the Grace it has made available to us! God bless!

  • Herm

    What was before God? Is God a single entity like a person or a plurality like a species?

    When you were a little infant child could you answer those questions of your parents as you ask of God?

    Are you a little infant child of God?

  • Virginia Bemis

    Good point. You set out exactly why that phrase is wrong. I’ve never liked it, so I avoid saying it. Occasionally, I say “God will help you cope with this” but that’s entirely diferent.

  • corky

    And what did Charlie Gard’s parents do to deserve that? And my grandniece had her baby daughter die at 4 months from a genetic disease. This doesn’t make sense

  • corky

    Yes I am certainly struggling with a belief with all the tragedies in the world, We sin and bring it on ourselves?? wtf?? innocent children dying of starvation and preventable disease. Great utube clip here from Sam Harris. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HthQ6a7FZeA

  • One of the most beautiful things anyone ever said to me in the midst of an incredibly dark and painful time was this: “I can’t fix this, but I will sit in the dark with you.”

  • Unfortunately, Harris’ beliefs are almost as bad and negative. He claims in his podcast, “Tumors All the Way Down” that all of existence is so determined completely that all humans are “puppets,” and that analogically like the Texas mass murderer who allegedly killed because he had a brain tumor, SO, all humans have ‘brain tumors’ which make all of us do everything that we do.

    So instead of God causing us to do evil, I guess, according to Harris, it’s the cosmos or the Big Bang which causes all evil.

    And, Harris claims that even if the cosmos returned again a “trillion” times, all of us would do exactly, in detail, as we did this time around.

    Talk about depressing and hopeless:”-(

    Harris wrote some significantly good points in his first two books, BUT some of his later stuff is horrific.

  • corky

    Everything he said on the clip was true though, I haven’t read the other comment but it seems a moot point when talking about the existence or otherwise of god.

  • Daniel Fisher

    “When you say that God did this, even subtly or unintentionally, you take away the one thing so many of us desperately need– the comfort of God, and to be comforted knowing that this wasn’t God’s doing.”

    If true, I suggest some other things believers should avoid saying:

    “Shall we accept good from God and not trouble?”
    “God intended it for good”
    “The Lord gave, and the Lord took away.”
    “Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and bad come?”
    “Though he cause grief, he will have compassion.”
    “It is for the glory of God.”
    “Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?”
    “this happened so that the work of God might be displayed.”
    “those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator”

    Not to mention some blasphemous things believers have falsely attributed to God himself:

    ”Who has made man´s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?”
    “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.”

  • Tim

    See, the problem with this is that you’re assuming that the people who wrote these lines were taking dictation from God. They weren’t. They were writing about their own experiences from their own perspective.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Exactly. And thus we recognize that their perspective was wrong and needs either correction or abandoning altogether.

  • Tim

    If you’re serious, then I agree.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Appreciated, but the difficulty i was trying to get at was this: Dr. Corey seems as adamantly certain in his view that God doesn’t cause these things as various biblical writers seemed certain that God did cause them.

    But he has no more or greater insight into whether or not God is orchestrating these things or not, no? Unless God told him, I guess. Wouldn’t it be better to remain agnostic on the question, then, rather than to state with certainty that this isn’t God’s doing? To say “I have no idea if God orchestrated or intended this or not,” rather than to state categorically that “this wasn’t God’s doing”?

    In other words, sure, the biblical writers were writing about their own experiences from their own perspective. And so is Dr. Corey. But unless either has some sort of special or secret knowledge into things beyond reach of human perception, then they are both shot in the dark guesses about the question. Have I any reason to trust his perspective any more or less than that of the Bible writers?

  • Marie Halligan

    They nor your niece did NOT deserve it! I live in a small village and there have been some terrible things happen and done to people and no one in their right mind would ever think they deserved it! One of my fiance’s first cousins was being walked along the main street by his older brother, another cousin, and he suddenly bolted across the road into the path of an oncoming lorry! The lorry wasn’t speeding but the little boy didn’t stand a chance and apparently his head rolled down the road! The whole community was in shock and the poor lorry-driver never got behind the wheel again and never got over it- none of them deserved it! There have been at least two other dramatic incidents that I can think of but they are not really my stories to tell- you could Google Oola, County Limerick Ireland and you could probably find them and then wish you hadn’t! The people those things happened/ were done to didn’t deserve it either! That’s not how it works and is why I like the Orthodox understanding of why bad things happen and why evil befalls the innocent, as in my first comment.I am sure an Orthodox Christian could explain it better. When I heard it,a lot of things made sense to me. Also,I can’t quote the Bible back-to-front but I ‘m sure it says the devil has been allowed to run this world for a while; facillitating or arranging bad things to happen to people that they don’t deserve would be right up his street ,don’t you reckon?

  • Tim

    Ok, now I see where you’re coming from; Point taken.
    However, I think what Ben was trying to highlight was that we terribly misuse that phrase particularly in light of how it was used in scripture.
    Perhaps he went off the cliff a bit in trying to additionally justify that by saying things that are equally questionable.

  • Bones

    You probably like ‘God helps those who help themselves……’ Hezekiah 5:4

  • Bones

    I particularly like the ‘It was God’s will’ which my sister was told after her husband and my friend was decapitated leaving us to raise her kids…..oh and ‘all things work together for good’ after finding my Dad in the garage with a 22……which destroyed my family.

    These are all just bs trite answers which don’t reflect reality.

    At some time Christians have to grow up.

  • Bones

    Yeah we know earthquakes and disasters aren’t caused by gods….

    The reality is elementary children today have a better understanding of the processes of the world than even the ancient Prophets who blamed disasters on angering God or the gods..

    Some Christians wish to remain in the Dark. That’s their choice.

  • Shelia Rainey-Knox

    Mr Fisher, as one human being to another, I am deeply sorry for the losses, disappointments, struggles, hard times, etc. you and your family have had to face. Please, know that I am sincere in my words. Because I have not lived a life absent of these things either, perhaps I may be minutely aware the emotional burden born by them can cause a distortion of one’s point of view. You’re excellent at registering your complaint against God’s word, Christians, and even God. However, you offer no remedy to the people you ridicule and imply are unintelligent due to their faith. I want you to know that I have added you to my prayer list and I am praying God through the Holy Spirit will soften your heart and deliver you greater understanding. God has blessed you in some way during your life. You just need to remember. We have all been made in God’s image and we are the only one of God’s creations that can boast that fact. I choose to believe a portion of that image is our free will. Our free will can work for us and it can work against us. All our choices act to affect our future in one way or another, but no one wants to accept the credit for befalling a troublesome time as being their own fault.

  • My guess (based on reading Ben’s posts for several years and his statement that he is an Anabaptist) is that Ben doesn’t take the Bible like a flat plain, but like an inclining plain that suddenly rises up to a towering mountain peak in Jesus’ words such as in the Sermon on the Mount.

    The latter view of Scripture rejects many violent, abusive, destructive texts from the Hebrew Bible as, basically, untrue.

    At least that was the perspective of Anabaptists when my wife and I were members, and I was an elder, Bible teacher, missions spokesperson, etc.

    Of course, modern day Calvinists such as John Piper–and others such as Augustinians claim totally otherwise. They, instead, emphasize that God does plan/foreordain/will every evil act, every destructive natural disaster, every cancer, everything down to the smallest molecule
    and that God does such awful acts for HIS own glory and “good pleasure.” Romans 9

    But then Calvinists, etc. have always taken a very different view of Christianity and the Bible. That’s why they executed lots of Anabaptists in the 16th century, etc.

    The HUGE difference is that Anabaptists’ central presupposition is that God is GOOD.

    Like John Wesley, they think that any God who plans and executes horrific actions is the “devil,’ NOT God at all.

  • Herm

    Unless God told him, I guess.

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    You do not know what you do not know. You do not see what you do not see. You do not accept what you do not accept. If you do not seek, ask and knock it will not be opened to you. … as it is written and is spoken with, and in, the Spirit of truth to every heart, soul, strength, mind as they can bear. … and so is every one, filled by the Holy Spirit, so adamantly certain in what they view that they boldly speak the word of God, not from any carnal book but from the image of God in them who they now see to accept.

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

  • I don’t think I share the way you’ve set up the problem. I see it as: God created a universe where the eventual introduction of evil was possible. Actualizing a universe where it is an eventual possibility is different than being the actual creator/ causing agent of evil.

  • Herm

    Then the LORD said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold. “ ‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’
    Exodus 20:22-26 (NIV2011)

    These are the laws you are to set before them:
    Exodus 21:1 (NIV2011)

    But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
    Exodus 21:23-25 (NIV2011)

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
    Matthew 5:38-42 (NIV2011)

    “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.
    Exodus 21:17 (NIV2011)

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
    Luke 14:26 (NIV2011)

  • Jay Hoyt Rodgers

    I need to think on this some more. The thing is, the way I’ve established the question is EXACTLY how many anti-religious people frame it. It would be great if we had an answer that would satisfy them. Maybe essential. My honest, simple response is “I don’t know.” (Actually, that’s my response to almost any question.) There is a huge group of people out there who WANT and MISS god, but they’ve left church because they couldn’t FIND god there.

  • Well, I don’t see any significant difference when it comes to Greek Fate, Christian foreordination, Muslim al-Qadar, or atheistic hard determinism.

    They all mean there is no hope, no ethical choice, that we humans are all playthings of the Greek gods, Yahweh, Allah, or the Cosmos.

    Of course, hard determinists are often contradictory. In one writing by Sam Harris, right after he claimed that humans have no choice, he at the end of the article, thanked his wife for her support!

    And Christian leaders have lectured me that I ought to adopt their theology, even though they claim that I have no choice…

    LOL!

  • paganheart

    Thank you for this, Dr. Corey. I too have heard this phrase many times…when I was a depressed, anxious, self-harming teenager; when I was diagnosed with lupus; when I was laid off from my job; when my husband’s business failed; when our life savings was stolen from us by someone we considered a friend; when our four-year-old nephew died from leukemia; when our niece was born 11 weeks early…I could go on. It is not helpful. Ever.

    I once told my husband that if anyone ever told me again that something tragic and trying was “God’s plan” or that “God doesn’t give you anything you can’t handle,” I would run screaming from the room. Perhaps I will point them to this instead. Thank you again.

  • Kate Johnson

    While the conscious intent may be comfort, much of the underlying sentiment is a how can I distance myself from this pain. My advices is silence. Be there, don’t talk, don’t try to make it better, you can’t. Mourn with those who mourn, don’t tell them why they shouldn’t be mourning. So much of what people think is helpful, only shows they haven’t suffered deeply themselves or they would know how completely useless and offensive that kind of babbling is. Phrases like, “I’m so sorry” or “I can’t imagine what you are going through, but I’m here if you need me” or “my heart is broken for you”, are far more helpful. It’s arrogance that makes us think we can speak for God, and somehow explain away people’s pain. You might as well slap them in the face.

  • “God never gives you more than you can handle” always seemed like an empathy cop-out to me. The message I get is, “I have no idea what to tell you, so I’m basically telling you that you’re on your own.”

  • Have you ever read Viktor Frankl Man’s Search for meaning? Here’s the quote I like:
    “When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.”
    You can’t, of course, say this to the person who has first to face the grief that is so new. You can know that this is what they face: the challenge to live without whatever it was they lost. I think it’s the rare person that can enter compassionately, effectively and appropriately into a loss like that not one’s own. It takes a special empathy and a conviction that one is sent to encourage, sit quietly and listen. Not everyone is prepared to be called to that degree. But I think what’s relevant is to know that that is what a loved one or one for whom one cares is facing the challenge to change and live Life On Life’s terms. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b20932c588814c1dac918fd23c599d08e4bc9d5a1a15b3226971ea84a0c35f8f.jpg

  • Jerry Hollingsworth

    I prefer that there is nothing we experience that God cannot overcome. As a Christian with stage 4 Pancreatic Cancer (inoperable and multiple metastasis) I can unequivocally declare this true. In these last months of my life He has stood my up to share His message of love and life eternal through His Son when I could not stand on my own. It is His glory that works through us when we accept what life brings and trust Him absolutely. Then, we can proclaim Him Father, Abba and let His grace and glory shine from us. It’s the most difficult yet simple way to be in Him and He in us. Believe that He can and trust that He will and all things suddenly make sense!

  • Jerry Hollingsworth

    Bones, consider Job’s questioning of God and His response; then read Jeremiah 29:11. Grief, pain, sense of abandonment by a loving God and even despair are normal and appropriate. Then, trust God, knowing that He is much wiser than we and uses all things for our benefit and His glory. As one with a few months to live, I finally understand this. The trauma you and your family have experienced was not “God given” and the trials these things have brought to your are not insignificant. By trusting that He can and will lift you up from these stronger and yes closer to Him, He is then able to heal that which we cannot. May you be blessed with hope and serenity!

  • barry

    Marcion “the heretic” was only so-called by the church fathers because he believed the god of the OT was a demon and not the father of Jesus.

    I have to wonder if Dr. Corey accepts the OT tendency to use fear as a basis for faith, or does he essentially agree with Marcion?

    Read Deuteronomy 28:15-63. Not only will God react to disobedience by causing rape (v. 30) and parental cannibalism (v. 53-57), but he will “delight” to do so no less than he “delights” to reward obedience with prosperity (v. 63). God credits himself as the reason pagan armies beat Hebrew kids to death and force women to endure abortion-by-sword (Hosea 13:15-16, Isaiah 13:15-16).

    Dr. Corey must think the books of Jeremiah and Lamentations should be removed from the canon, because these books mean exactly nothing if they don’t teach that God will react to Jerusalem’s idolatry with frightful fury and displays of wrath….in his effort to scare them back into monotheism.

    The NT teaches a fear-based faith no less:

    26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
    28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
    31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:26-31 NAU)

  • Paula Thompson

    Thank you for posting something of God’s true and loving nature. God doesn’t send us painful events, life and its inevitable vicissitudes offer more than enough painful situations. God doesn’t cause pain, God gets us through it. Overcoming the struggles of life makes us strong, knowing that God is in our corner helps.

  • Bones

    Thanks Jerry, but I’ve worked my way through the Darkness and out into the Light.

    May you enjoy your final days with humanity and love.

  • Bones

    Yeah, none of that is happening. Especially as all of us have set aside the law of Moses….even Jews.

    In fact even Jesus.

    Neither did He come back in a ‘little while’. (10:37)

    In context it’s more about revenge for the persecutions endured after the deaths of the apostles.

  • Bones

    No, the devil didn’t kill charlie gard nor the boy on the road.

    The Christian response to blame bad things on God/satan/sin is nonsensical.

    It represents an ancient view that bad things (disasters) happen by supernatural means eg volcanoes are caused by angry gods and we made them angry.

  • Bones

    Are you saying people who have had behavioural changes after brain damage have made a choice?

  • Bones

    I’m not Mr Fisher….

  • Dave

    Well written and so very true. Another thing that bothers me is that the phrase is often preceded by the words “They say…”

  • steve_tippens

    Still in the context of the God “up there,” somewhere (heaven?), rewarding, punishing, giving, taking – created in our image (our behavior). I prefer the God of presence – “behold, I am with you always …”, part and parcel of all things, indescribably greater than the whole, yet as personal as the image in my mirror. My God is least of all capricious, selective, exclusive. The created system works as intended. My control extends only as far as my response to it. Gods love comforts me through the complexities of life, but does not shield me from them. For me, that is enough.

  • Bones

    And maybe people need to rethink the understanding of god as a cosmic chess player.

    He’s (It’s) more like the lifesource for the Universe, the energy that pervades everything, than some anthropomorphic creation ruling above the universe.

  • YellowBird

    you sound just exactly like my dear sweet old pastor Gary did, as he was also succumbing to rapidly spreading Pancreatic Cancer…
    Creator’s blessings to you! i pray the final steps of your journey will not be harsh and filled with pain

  • YellowBird

    “We can’t solve everything, but we can help each other…”
    yes.
    Jesus said God’s only Law is LOVE. = Kindness Counts.

  • YellowBird

    …i understood his meaning to be that nothing is simple, or simplistic…

  • Iain Lovejoy

    “Yeah we know earthquakes and disasters aren’t caused by gods….”
    And the writers of the Bible knew full well that the destruction of Jerusalem was caused by the king of Babylon deciding to sack it for its rebellion, assembling his armies, marching to it and trashing the place, all perfectly natural explanations they fully understood, but they nevertheless attributed its destruction to the actions of God. I don’t think their attribution of natural disasters to deities necessarily always came from a lack of understanding of physical causes, but rather actually from a better understanding of the nature of God.

  • Bones

    No, it’s quite obvious that all disasters were attributed to God/gods. That’s how they thought. So the continual conquest of Israel is portrayed as punishment for Israel for her sins. Indeed the Persian King Cyrus is proclaimed the messiah in Isaiah and restoring |Israel (until Israel is again invaded by the Greeks and Romans).

    It’s that “if God is with us….” theology.

    If we win God is with us and blesses us because we’re good and the gods are happy with us.

    If we lose, it’s because we’ve angered the gods.

    History has shown the dangers of this type of thinking which has led to massacres and genocide.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Well yes, but the point is it has nothing to do with whether they understood volcanology or plate tectonics.

  • Bones

    Whhhaaaatttt?

    They didn’t know how these events occurred, so they attributed them to angry gods.

    Some cultures even sacrificed to keep the gods happy.

    Still happens

    Yes, People Still Throw Animals Into Volcanoes To Please The Gods

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/robinandrews/2017/05/21/yes-people-still-throw-animals-into-volcanoes-to-please-the-gods/#7d820dec3502

    Reminds me of Father Ted…

    Tribesman: Quixiquoddal, the Volcano God is angry. We must appease his wrath!
    Fr. Ted: Volcano God! What kind of nonsense is that? Look, I’ll ask you one more time: would you not give Catholicism a try?
    Tribesman: It wouldn’t really catch on here. We don’t agree with the Pope’s line on artificial contraception. It’s the ’90s for God’s sake!
    — Father Ted, “Kicking Bishop Brennan up the Arse”

  • Bones

    Btw Iain, do you agree that the destruction of Jerusalem and the subsequent slavery of the Jewish population was God’s punishment on the Jews?

  • Chari McCauley

    My first question was why would I trust You; why do You make us, if You hate us so much? I joined the military, and left two weeks after graduation. My question became, why is the god in the OT more violent than The Lord Who said His Father raised Him? I think I’ve come to understand some things. Like Lucifer was a child who got too big for his britches. Not wanting to extend the same care to his syblings that was given to him.

    I know that Satan is the cancer of the soul, like cancer is cancer of the body. Satan is a disease, and it is alive and active today. It is such a distructive disease that I am not certain if the angels infected by Satan are even still living or if only the disease is still active.
    But, I still have the questions regarding women. I mean why DO I think I can trust Them? If it weren’t for skin color I see a LOT of sameness in the way women and black folks are treated; worse if you happen to be female who is black. And many black men do the same things to their women, sooo, it is a Global problem.

    I work with men who believe, and treat us as though we know nothing. Some believe that our having a job take a mans job away. In other words we are there, so some guy is unemployed because of it. Well, my husband has a disability, now who is supposed to bring home bacon?

    I have trust, now; but, still a LOT of questions. Does The Creator create victims? Why is being destructive more entertaining than being creative? Are men the only ones He cares about saving? Only two verses suggest women in Heaven. (Genesis 1:26, Romans 1:20, because this whole planet is half male, half female, people, plants, animals).

  • Chari McCauley

    And, the disciples thought the women who claimed to see His risen body were full of it, until He showed up. Why? Did not the same Creator create us?

  • Chari McCauley

    Yeah but, women seem to be needed, because there’s always work to do; but, loved? Not especially. I have been told I am expendable; I can easily be replaced. No not loved. At least not here.

  • Chari McCauley

    but I ‘m sure it says the devil has been allowed to run this world for a while; facillitating or arranging bad things to happen to people that they don’t deserve would be right up his street ,don’t you reckon?

    Like Job, you mean?

  • Chari McCauley

    Thank you Dr. Corey for your blog. Thank you, thank you.

  • Chari McCauley

    Hi Bones, well I understand more. Sometimes it takes courage to tell about your past.

    These are all just bs trite answers which don’t reflect reality.

    This is why I left the church. They never have answers for after you walk back out the door. It’s always songs, speeches and fund raisers. Never what do you do when bad things are happening? And, if Lucifer is still active; he knows what he’s doing when he hurts children; because, few are mentally stable when people they are told to trust do things that we are told God would send us to Eternal more pain for.

    Women and children don’t have the right to tell a man “no”; but we have the right to die for “our” sins.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Because of course everyone before you was stupid.
    Did the Israelites attribute the destruction of Israel to God because they were to childish, naive and ignorant to understand that invasions occur through a king deciding to invade and assemble his armies to do so, so had to attribute them to God’s special magic instead?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians because Judah was stupid enough to rebel against them, despite (at least according to the Bible) being repeatedly warned by God not to.

  • Chari McCauley

    They can’t find The Father there. Nor, do they find His Son.

  • Chari McCauley

    Do you think the elements and chemistry were already there? Why do we call it Mother Nature? I believe eternity is older than immortality.

    In other words, The Oldest Living Minds did not invent the laws of health, chemistry, math…They had to learn them; and, They did. They aren’t asking us to learn anything They didn’t have to learn. They chose to learn it.

  • Kathy Ruth

    God gave us the world to live in and to take care of. All that happens is OUR doing not hers/his!
    God is not in control at all and I don’t see why people think this. It is not supported by the Bible.
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithforward/2016/11/god-is-not-in-control/

    http://www.stevehackman.net/god-is-not-in-control/

  • Etranger

    This is good news to hear! I like the more deist approach. Maybe we will not hear about people praying for god to do something if people understood things as you say!!

  • You are irreplaceable!! There is not another like you. In a job situation yes you are replaceable I am replaceable. I have been fired and replaced many times. In the love situation it’s uncontrollable and unconditional. Right now I know nobody loves me like I would like to be loved. No human agency can. I’m 66 now and I’m just beginning to love myself for who I am and what I’ve been through. I am human among humans who are not loved enough. There is no one to turn to but myself. I did not create myself. Have you ever heard of an attitude of gratitude? It’s one of the main tenants in Alcoholics Anonymous. It helps me stay sober and Serene. I’ve been clean and sober for 15 years. It’s been a mighty hard life. But it’s bearing fruit now!! Now I’m grateful for the least little thing! Having clean water for instance and and being able to take a shower everyday!! And I’m glad I’m here experiencing this life. I believe It won’t always be this way. I have just enough courage to get through another day. If I can get through that day without picking up a drink or a drug that’s a good day!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/742e54c426719a8afbcb34dda10c6191c3f819578e18575f20f99f0b9fd01320.jpg

  • Bones

    I was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

    But even the Exile is seen as a punishment.

    Of course all these writings are written in hindsight and interpreting past events.

    Heck we just got our arses kicked god must be punishing us.

    How long is this punishment of Jews going on for?

    The holocaust was just 70 years ago.

    How does this god of rewards and punishment work for the native Americans?

  • Bones

    Yeah pretty much.

    You obviously find it hard to understand.

    It’s why Christians have been killing Jews for millenia beginning with God supposedly punishing them with the destruction of the temple and forced slavery.

    Wow.

    You disappoint me.

    I thought you were above believing in a god who practises genocide on nations.

    Obviously that sort of bronze age thinking lives on.

  • Bones

    Chari, not only do you have the right to tell a man no but you can damn well kick him in the nuts if he won’t accept it.

    As for the pain in life, we need to help each other through, not explain away pain with cheap answers.

  • Bones

    I think so.

    We’re essentially made of stars.

  • Noah

    To add to Ben’s thought, and I think he’ll agree on my overall statement, there should always be room for not knowing everything: edpecially dealing with a thing that is outside of our immediate reality…….god would be outside of our box.

    And then there is the whole shorn our parents don’t keep us from everything bad that they could.

  • Noah

    Bones, so sorry.

    I do take solace in that evil, broken things can be worked towards good. But, that exists as an option for all, regardless of ones immediate spirituality.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I have no idea what you are talking about, but since you plainly have no idea what you are talking about either, that’s probably fine. If you are going to accuse me of antisemitism or somehow condoning the holocaust because I disagree with you that the writers of the Law and the Prophets on which the Jewish religion and culture are based were just naive, idiotic children and what they wrote the silly nonsense of people who didn’t know better, then you are frankly an idiot and I don’t see any benefit in further discussion.
    For the benefit of anyone reading this and following this discussion:
    Bones here asserted that the attribution of disasters to God by the writers of the Bible was because (unlike clever Bones) they were too ignorant to know how natural disasters such as volcanoes etc occurred, and now we are all too clever to make such a silly mistake.
    I pointed out that disasters which they definitely did know the natural cause of (such as invasions) were also attributed to God, giving the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians as an example. The conclusion to be drawn therefore was that attributing disasters to God was not the result of simply not knowing the natural cause.
    For reasons best known to himself, the assertion that the writers of the Jewish prophets was not naive idiocy is antisemitism on my part.

  • Herm

    Chari, this is a small part of your church today. We are pleased to have you worship with us, thank you!

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)

    Chari, you wrote, “Only two verses suggest women in Heaven. (Genesis 1:26, Romans 1:20”

    Note that in Genesis 1:26 and 27 that God is a plurality of one as is the image of God made in mankind, male and female equally inseparable.

    Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So, God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

    Genesis 1:26-27 (NIV2011)

    This may help to clarify the likeness of God we all share, regardless of what cancers to the body of Mankind might attempt to separate.

    This is the written account of Adam’s family line. When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created.

    Genesis 5:1-2 (NIV2011)

    The following prophesy in Joel was repeated more clearly by Jesus when witnessed to in John, particularly 14:15-21 and 16:12-15.

    “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    Joel 2:28-29 (NIV2011)

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    I can only testify to this for those who do not see to accept the Spirit of truth but He came shortly after Christ ascended. People of mankind have to follow through on their sense that God/Allah (by any name) exists by actually seeking, asking and knocking directly with God’s Spirit in their midst before they will know, for themselves, the Spirit of truth with and in them.

    Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So, the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. So, in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Galatians 3:23-29 (NIV2011)

    We, born of the Spirit, as little children of God, are one in God as is our Father and our Brother Jesus, our Lord and high priest serving us together as one with all authority in heaven and on earth.

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27 (NIV2011)

    In the Spirit of truth we can discern what is the word of God from what is the word of Man, both chronicled in all the books of faith written by the hand of Man. Luke 14:26 speaks to obedience to which word, God’s or Man’s, students of Christ must learn from. There is only one Teacher (the Spirit of truth), one Father (who is spirit in Heaven), and one Instructor (the Messiah) of God but there are many differing familial traditions of mankind we each, in our carnal childhood, were obedient to for our survival.

    Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Matthew 12:47-50 (NIV2011)

    The will of my Father is that I love the Lord my God with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength, all my mind (the spirit entity of awareness and influence who is me) and like that love my good neighbor no more or less than I do myself. When I do love with all I can, each moment, the bountiful resource of opportunities graced me the fruit will be, and is, in everything I do to all others, first, what I would have all others do to me.

    The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:11-12 (NIV2011)

    Jesus Christ, in divine humility, serves us today, as our Lord and Brother, first and more capably as He would have us serve Him. He lives!

    This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

    1 John 4:17-18 (NIV2011)

    We, human kind, are perfectly loved, subject only to how humbly receptive we are, by the Son of Man who knows us, as one of us, and our Father in heaven.

    Chari, this is my Sabbath day of the week that I just spent a small portion of sermonizing my reflections to you in a rather traditional way. Take it for what it is worth to support your relationship in the family of God. I am only a child who is subject to err when reaching out to another child I care for. You are loved!!!

  • Pantheism!

  • Shelia Rainey-Knox

    Bones, you read it even though I labeled it incorrectly, and it was promised for you.

  • Shelia Rainey-Knox

    Oh, Marie, what a precious heart you must have. Your words describe you as a person filled with empathy and compassion and love. You hit the nail on the head. Yes, it is evil that creates the sickness, death, torture, etc that cause human beings to suffer or be homeless. I was avoiding the word sin because Bones seems to be completing disgusted with God and Christians. I am not aware of the things that have caused him to carry so much hate and anger, but they must have been horrible and began when he was just a boy. Those pains never leave us until we let them go.

  • kaydenpat

    As always, very beautifully written.

  • corky

    26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    We’re all doomed then, who has not sinned after receiving the “knowledge of truth:?

  • Roger Morris

    This is one of the trite, kitsch, childish platitudes that infantilized Christians tell themselves, each other and those around them. They repeat this platitude to stave off death terror and the terror of random, meaningless and uncontrollable suffering, that is inherent in the human condition. But it often causes more suffering for the person who feels overwhelmed by their situation, as it implies that they are somehow lacking faith or tenacity, and should be coping better. Christians need to grow up from their child-like fantasies and acknowledged the world of suffering around them.

  • Daniel Fisher

    I appreciate that, and I follow in general, but I’m not sure how this applies to this current claim. That is, regardless of whether I agree, I can follow this reasoning, for example, if someone uses Jesus’ words about turning the other cheek to overrule or negate the Old Testament laws about capital punishment, etc.

    But the claim that bad things aren’t God’s doing I’m not seeing coming from Jesus. Closest I can think of is that you have the times Jesus himself did not know the future, or the idea that some people aren’t worse sinners than others just because bad things (collapsing towers) fall on them; but then that isn’t different than the theology in the OT (Job, etc.). Help me if I’m missing others.

    While on the other hand, you have Jesus claiming that certain bad things happen “so that the works of God might be displayed”, that an illness (and death) happened “for the glory of God”, and not to mention his own execution that he recognized as the plan and will of God.

    So I’m still left with the impression that this adamant and indisputable certainty of Dr. Corey (that these bad things aren’t God’s doing) is coming from who knows where… I’m not following where you would go in Jesus’ teachings to negate or override those parts of the OT (or the rest of the new for that matter) that claim bad things are in at least some sense God’s doing. And at least some things he speaks about certainly seem to affirm, rather than abrogate, those other perspectives.

  • Bones

    Try panentheism.

  • Bones

    Now you’re just talking shit, Iain, especially your dishonest claim of antisemitism. Grow up a bit.

    Well it’s pretty simple what I’m talking about.

    I don’t believe in a God who creates disasters and destroys nations.

    The ancients did and attributed bad things to sin /angering God/gods.

    Do you really think that Bronze Age itinerants had an understanding of tectonic plates? Like ffs! No they didn’t. That’s something taught in elementary school today. Even the astronomer Kepler thought that volcanoes were ducts of the god’s tears and that was in the 17th century CE. And the Greeks though volcanoes were caused by the god Hephaistos and the Romans, the god, Vulcan.

    Are you cleverer than them, Iain? (Using your term – I’d say enlightened or informed, but we’ll go with your little canard)
    Because I am. It’s called scientific progress.

    Even the New Testament says “Who sinned that this man was born blind?”

    Well no one, apparently.

    Apparently you do believe this, because some Bronze Age scribes interpreted their disasters as angering the God/gods. Same with sickness was a curse from god.

    And that belief has resounded throughout history through all sorts of dangerous and evil shit such as the extermination of the natives in the Americas. And the treatment of Jews since the first century (speaking of antisemitism – that would be more what someone like you would do. The Jews had it coming). Through to the poor and sick are cursed by God.

    I hope most people are cleverer than that. And I hope people in 3000 years time are cleverer than me.

    Otherwise we’ve gone f***ing backwards.

  • Bones

    Well I’m interested as to how a person who has brain injuries has free will?

    That sounds simplistic.

  • Bones

    Well that’s nice, Shelia but your description of me is incorrect.

    There is a remedy to religious extremism, it’s called education and opening your mind.

    And maybe you could start educating yourself by doing some academic study on the bible. You would learn more from that. You would learn greater understanding than simple prayers.

    “All our choices act to affect our future in one way or another, but no one wants to accept the credit for befalling a troublesome time as being their own fault.”

    This is the problem with the illusion of free will. My life has been influenced by the decisions of others. So has yours. In fact everyone’s.

    I’m not quite sure what you think is my fault….that’s a pretty dumb comment.

  • Bones

    “But the claim that bad things aren’t God’s doing I’m not seeing coming from Jesus.”

    And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” (John 9:2)

  • Bones

    You see comments like this where you think you know me do disgust me.

    It’s like people like yourself have to judge others on things you don’t even know to make yourselves feel better.

    You don’t understand people so it’s no wonder you don’t understand god or the Bible.

  • Interesting, I held that panentheism was belief in a god separate from the universe, individually manifested. The way I see it defined however makes it very similar to what I learned pantheism as being.

  • Bones

    The key to panentheism is that god is in all eg energy.

    It’s not that everything is god (pantheism).

    But no, I’m not making a systemic theology out of it.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Afraid you missed it, I already referred to that one in my question.

  • Chari McCauley

    We can’t keep our heads in the sand, either. Too many everybody getting hurt for no good reason. Including the things that keep us alive. I live with tears in my heart every day.

    Sorry it takes so long to get back. I work 2nd shift, six days. Sometimes it takes me a minute to catch up. And we are all spread out on these blogs. Lot of very cool people, here.

  • Chari McCauley

    Thank you, Charles. Kindness is a language the deaf can hear, and the blind can see. (these are physical impairments, but true)

    Our problems stem though from the fact that when The Lord said hear and see, He meant empathy in your heart to see where people have been for understanding.
    Our hearts will not hear the plea of people in pain; therefore we turn our eyes away.

  • Chari McCauley

    Well I wish my skin twinkled like one:)) That would be cool!

  • apoxbeonyou

    YES

  • Chari McCauley

    Speaking of helping each other, Where is everybody? I, personally miss you. Is Dr. Corey here? You wrote about “ghosting” once. Those Who really care would NEVER just abandon you.

    They belong on this thread. It speaks to everyone who has ever been in pain. And, has ever had that pain laughed off by those you thought would care.

    Where’s Ron, JD, JD Eveland, Snooterpoot, I see Herm, found Bones, I am missing some names. Charles, you might already be here. Matthew, where are you?

  • Chari McCauley

    There you are.

  • Chari McCauley

    Thank you for your time. You are also loved.

  • PreciousbutRare

    Since most of us view “God doesn’t give us more than we can bear” as loaded language, I’m curious to see how we will respond the next time someone uses this phrase to influence how we feel during our trials. Will we ignore them/let them continue as usual, use the scenario as a teachable moment, or, considering the circumstances you’re dealing with, will your mind consider any of this?

  • Bones

    I think people come and go Chari…..they have lives……and we get a bit sick of having to defend who we are as human beings to online trolls.

  • Tim
  • ? I don’t understand your question.

    I used to work with emotionally disturbed children and teens in a mental hospital. I particularly recall 3 specific children right now.

    When we held them responsible for their choices each day, it had NOTHING to do with their brain damage, the inability to make some choices!

    Of course they weren’t responsible for not being able to do calculus, or for not even being able to obey some instructions.

    BUT a brain damaged child still can make moral choices. Those children prove that as does my own dear brain-damaged little relative.

    And we people with fairly normal brains can make ethical choices, though, again, to varying degrees.

    I am typing this, writing against Harris’ hard determinism because I made an ethical choice.

  • A brain-damaged child (unless so severe there is no functioning) and adult can still make ethical choices.

    Free will is the ability of a human being (and maybe some other sentient creatures) to act creatively, especially when it comes to questions of good and evil.

    It has nothing to do with whether or not one’s brain has been physically damaged.

  • ? Maybe we don’t understand each other’s view?

    However, you do quote a couple of powerful verses in John which seem to counter Ben’s perspective.

    You wrote “While on the other hand, you have Jesus claiming that certain bad things happen “so that the works of God might be displayed”, that an illness (and death) happened “for the glory of God”, and not to mention his own execution that he recognized as the plan and will of God.”

    #1 Liberal Christians don’t necessarily agree with everything Jesus allegedly said or believed. For instance, Jesus never condemned slavery has inherently evil, but liberal Christians think that it has always been one of the worst actions of evil.

    #2 Your quote of John 11 is an excellent counter to Ben’s claim. I don’t know how he would answer that particular text.

    #3 And John 9:3, “Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.”
    Another powerful quote which would seem to counter Ben’s view.

    The way one famous Anabaptist leader, Greg Boyd, answered this is that he wrote God doesn’t give us evil “messes,” but God can use “messes” for good.

    So God didn’t cause the the man to be born blind, BUT according to Jesus, God will be glorified when he overcomes the evil of blindness.

    I think that is the way that most Anabaptists would answer, and, maybe Ben, too–is that God NEVER “gives” evil, destruction, illness, slaughter, etc., BUT that God uses such “messes” of evil to bring out Good.

    So God didn’t originally plan for any evil action, but when evil events come, he, as God, has the ability to create hope even in the midst of the worst.

  • Bones

    Well it depends on what part of the brain is damaged, doesn’t it?

    As George Carlin says we have the illusion of choice.

    https://youtu.be/1cg6Ku3rRnY

  • Bones

    Well no, there are plenty of instances of brain damage affecting behaviour.

    Also what free will does a person raised in North Korea have?

    Not much I can guarantee.

  • Based on my own work in a mental institution, years of working with at-risk teens, studying too many tomes of history, I completely disagree with you on this.

    A “person raised in North Korea” has free will to make ethical choices, as did one raised in Nazi Germany, or Saudi Arabia, etc.

    If NOT, then existence is truly absurd. Then we do have the case that Harris claims that even if existence comes again a “trillion” times, every human “puppet,” every “tumors all the way down” human will be forced to slaughter, molest, rape, all over again for a “trillion” times.

    Then ethics are indeed an illusion.

    So are we.

    I don’t agree.

    Good bye.

  • Well, as I already stated, severe brain damage incapacitates that individual from making choices, even from thinking.
    Maybe, the individual doesn’t even have an “I.”

    Severe brain damage isn’t that different from death–when every person who dies ceases to exist and so, of course, no longer is capable of making real choices.

    BUT all other humans, who are still alive, do face ethical choices moment by moment and can make choices. The brain’s plasticity enables creative thought and creative action.

    At least that is the view of some neuroscientists including two at UCLA.

    According to Carlin, then he had no choice but to say all humans have no choice, and that rich men had no choice but to NOT care about. and when he says that the spokesperson is “wrong,” he needs to stop talking because of course with no choice there is no wrong! Heck, the spokesperson couldn’t have done differently.

    Besides, Carlin doesn’t seem to be saying that humans have no choice, but that propaganda in the U.S. brainwashes Americans.

    I don’t agree, but such a claim is entirely different from the philosophical view at no one has any choice.

    What would be the point of Carlin trying to oppose fascism, etc. IF no one has any choice, and everything is an illusion?

    Of course, in hard determinism I realize that he is only another “puppet.”

    NOT!

  • D.M.S.

    Are you saying the bible can’t be interpreted by itself?
    Where is this interpretation?

  • Ron McPherson

    Heck, it even goes on here in America. What free will does a kid raised in Westboro Baptist have? Kids whose parents have them hold signs saying “God hates fags.” Those kids have been brainwashed by the adults (heck the adults themselves have been brainwashed) into believing they’re doing a good thing. That they’re doing what God wants them to do. Some escape into reality by leaving it when they become adults. Others don’t.

  • John

    It’s interesting, you’ve gone to a different verse than what I would have gone to in support of the position you’re critiquing. In my opinion Philippians 4:10-14 is must more applicable. It states:

    “10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at last you have revived your concern for me; indeed, you were concerned before, but you lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. 12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. 13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. 14 Nevertheless, you have done well to share with me in my affliction.”

    This goes in the opposite direction of your final conclusions. You state:

    If your intention is to remind us that we’re strong, then by all means– remind us we’re strong. Remind us of the times in our life when you’ve witnessed our strength, remind us of the qualities that are good and right about us. Remind us of the things that are true about us.

    But that isn’t what the Bible says to do… because we aren’t strong. That’s the point. GOD is strong, and His Spirit is living inside of us. Through Him we can have joy, even in the most horrific of situations.

    I’ve had much of what you mentioned in my life: the death of my young brother from a genetic disease, my parents and grandparents getting, and dying from, cancer, close friends with severe debilitating diseases, and many others. The greatest comfort to me has always been that I can, no matter the circumstances, depend on the power, love, and plan of God. I can mourn, but, as the Bible says, I don’t mourn like the pagans do because I have hope. I have a sovereign God. These evil things can never, not even for a second, separate me from the plan that God has for me and for those who love him.

  • Daniel Fisher

    “Liberal Christians don’t necessarily agree with everything Jesus allegedly said or believed”…

    So I’m left with the fact that I can’t necessarily trust the OT, since Jesus supposedly contradicted that…
    Nor can I necessarily trust Jesus on these matters, since he may have likewise been mistaken….
    …..But I am supposed to trust Dr. Corey’s take, because…. why again, exactly…????

  • Daniel Fisher

    I’ve never understood embracing beliefs about God based on what we would prefer to believe about him. Should we not pursue what is actually true about him, regardless of what we would prefer to find? To borrow from C. S. Lewis: “If Christianity is untrue, then no honest man will want to believe it, however helpful it might be: if it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all.”

  • Linnea912

    Kind of reminds me of a scene from the classic movie “Oh God!”

    Jerry (played by John Denver) and God (played by George Burns), are talking, and Jerry is getting all worked up about all that’s wrong with the world. He then turns to God and says, “Why don’t you do something about it?!” God’s reply: “Why don’t YOU? It’s YOUR world!”

    I agree that God is not in control of everything that happens. I prefer to think that when bad things happen, whether it’s someone we love dying unexpectedly, or a natural disaster that impacts thousands of people, God is there with us, comforting us and giving us the strength to do what needs to be done. I guess I’ve got a bit of the liberation theologian in me, in that I believe that God is especially present with the poor, the oppressed, the left out, let down, and left behind. I believe that God is also especially present with and in those who reach out to relieve suffering in the world, whether those people are medical professionals, disaster relief workers, or US, when we sit with a friend who’s having a hard time.

  • Daniel Fisher

    A genuine question, I am curious the perspective of Dr. Corey or any who agree with him that these things aren’t God’s doing….

    Simply: is God in fact powerless to prevent the evils that happen in this world? If not, then why, exactly, does he not so intervene?

  • ?
    I don’t think that you “ought to trust Dr. Corey’s take…”

    In fact, I disagree with many of his views.

    Like all humans, each of us needs to study and seek for truth.

  • #1 I agree that sometimes “brain damage” affects behavior. As a mental health worker helping, and trying to teach, some kids with brain damage, I do remember that.

    #2 My disagreement is that you seem to be saying that “brain damage” makes all choice impossible.

    And that you stated that choice is an “illusion.”

    # As for North Koreans, they have as much choice when it comes to ethics as anyone.

    Maybe you are referring to their not having freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of religion?

    However, I didn’t think we were discussing outward restrictions,BUT FREE WILL?

    Not being allowed to have free speech has nothing to do with whether or not humans have free will.

  • Bones

    I shall translate this question to mean: Can you understand the bible while disregarding context?

    Answer: No.

  • Bones

    Huh!!!!

    You are aware that the Allies had to reeducate the German population after WW2.

    Especially those young people raised as Nazis.

    As for what is ethical, well that’s subjective.

    There is no Objective ethics or morality, other than what we create.

    In fact those advocating the Holocaust appealed to people’s ethics and morality at the time.

    Heck look at ISIS or the Old Testament…..

    And I doubt you understand Harris’s position.

  • Bones

    The point is that people who suffer brain damage which effects behaviour don’t have a choice.

    That’s what I believe Harris is saying.

    As for North Koreans, you seem to have an ideal universal standard of ethics that everyone follows.

    That doesn’t exist.

    Other cultures simply don’t/didn’t follow modern western ethical standards.

    As for free will, a North Korean raised and indoctrinated in North Korea isn’t going to choose to become a western democrat.

  • Herm

    Daniel, could your mother and/or your father have intervened to keep you safe from the evils that happen in this world? Why didn’t they keep you in a padded rubber room in an effort to avoid all the potential risks to you?

    You may just be too caught up in you as the focus for God rather than Man. Mankind has no set date to cease to be aware and influential physically and spiritually. Each member of human kind will surely die within 120 years, each with scars. The good news is, according to the Messiah, members of Man, graced the image of God (which is spirit), have the opportunity to continue to be aware and influential after they’ve left the body of mankind.

    Could the Father have intervened, like with legions of angels, to have saved His Son from evil?

  • Daniel Fisher

    Sure, I recognize that you’re not asking me to trust Dr. Corey’s take, but he seems to be. In this article he is rather adamant that I (and everyone!) should forego using rather traditional, biblical language and ideas on this topic (such as “The Lord gave and the Lord took away” or “God intended it for good”, and other such as I referenced earlier).

    That is a tall order, and I am genuinely curious on what basis I am being asked (by him) to believe that his perspective is the correct one, in deference to which I should abandon the perspective of Moses, Job, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jesus, Peter….

    I can find no basis in reading the article, beyond his personal opinion and personal distaste for the perspective of those other authorities. That isn’t much on which for me to build a coherent theology, I’m afraid. If there is a stronger basis, I can’t find it in the article above. At most, he pointed out that 1Cor10.13 doesn’t teach this (with which I have no disagreement).

    So in other words, sure, “each of us needs to study and seek for truth.” But I’m asking: in pursuing truth about God (someone not subject to empiric or scientific investigation), what is the means to find such truth? I suggest it is not Dr. Corey’s personal opinions or preferences. But then, what is?

  • Daniel Fisher

    My mother and father were neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Had they been, and still allowed various pains in my life, I would be forced to conclude that on some level, they wanted those specific things to happen.

  • Bones

    Well he is writing on his blog.

    “That is a tall order, and I am genuinely curious on what basis I am being asked (by him) to believe that his perspective is the correct one, in deference to which I should abandon the perspective of Moses, Job, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jesus, Peter….”

    Mainly because the biblical authors are giving their own personal opinions…they aren’t divine mandates.

    I sure as hell wouldn’t be accepting everything they say as truth either. Do you believe the author of Job which has Satan and God doing some sort of a deal?

    And so the search for the ‘correct’ truth goes on…….

  • Bones

    Well the thing is…Jesus never wrote anything down…..Nothing…..

    What we have are people’s interpretations and narratives using the Jesus character in local Palestinian first century events..

    And that….is a problem.

  • Bones

    Then maybe you need to rethink your concept of God as a cosmic chess player.

    Of course your image of god is even more horrendous, it’s a god who actually hurts and kills his creation eg the girl over here who was raped on end for hours and then had her head severed. So God is either powerless or doesn’t care about the suffering of his creation or even wills it. Which one is better. Honestly I’d make a better god than that. So would most human beings.

    The whole idea of an interventionist god makes no sense.

    Maybe instead this god just permeates all creation and suffers with it.

  • Bones

    Can I ask what good came out of the extermination of the Native americans?

  • Herm

    It was within your parents’ power to make every attempt to protect you from yourself, but they did not in love for you. It is within God’s power to protect you from yourself and that is death, isolated from all awareness and all influence, knowing nothing and forgotten. We do not grow stronger with ease. We must continue to tear (but not rip apart) our muscles, carnal and spirit, through effort, pain and scars, or we atrophy.

    You have attributed qualities to They, who know no beginning and know no end, that They do not have only because, relative to your knowledge, They seemingly know everything and, relative to your power, They seemingly can do anything, as did your parents when you were crying to be served survival.

    God has an entire eternity of growing stronger before Them to anticipate. Each of Man, graced to be born with and in God, each as a seemingly helpless child, who each in everything does to others as (s)he would have others do to her/him, serves to grow God stronger as one.

  • Thanks for sharing your thoughtful reflections. I agree with some of your points, such as the danger and question of Dr. Corey seeming to be overly completely sure of his own views…

    But as I already mentioned, I am on a very different life and spiritual journey than Ben’s.

    Hopefully, he or someone close to him will see your excellent points and answer them.

    I might give you more of my own life journey, BUT a severe problem/trial has come up in our extended family, so I’m focused on that right now, and am not up to a long explanation of my own views.

    Of course, I also don’t know your life stance either.

    If you want a different perspective than Ben Corey’s, you might check out my blog where I have wrestled through many life questions over the last few years–am growing and changing and wrestling (to quote scripture):
    http://infiniteoceanoflightandlove.blogspot.com/

    Thanks for the dialog.

  • We very strongly disagree about most of life it appears, have very different life-stances, etc.

    However, this discussion is pointless, correct? If you think that you and no one else has a choice, including you and me?
    And that ethics are an illusion, a delusion…?

    So as one hard deterministic puppet being stringed to say, goodbye, to another hard deterministic puppet;-):

    Adios.

  • Realist1234

    ‘But the claim that bad things aren’t God’s doing I’m not seeing coming from Jesus.’

    – how about the case of the woman that Jesus healed on the Sabbath as recorded in Luke 13: ‘On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God…Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?’

    – it seems to me that although clearly God had ‘allowed’ this to happen, that is quite different, at least in this case, from it being ‘God’s doing’. In fact, Jesus (who should know) claims it is satan’s ‘doing’ which He has now undone!

    Im not of course saying that all physical or indeed mental illness is directly caused by satan or the demonic, I suspect most of it is simply because we are very imperfect beings living in a very imperfect world, but let’s not assume, as you seem to be doing, that a physical or mental disease should be viewed as ‘God’s doing’ when that does not seem to be Jesus’ view of the matter.

    – see also Luke 10 re the seventy.

  • You wrote “as for what is ethical, well that’s subjective.”

    Hell no. It’s always wrong to rape, to molest, to enslave, to slaughter!

    And I DO understand Harris’s views very clearly. I formally studied determinism at university, including American Intellectual History under a agnostic professor who earned his PhD in determinism, read many of the most famous determinists, have read several of Harris’ books, listened to his podcasts on determinism a number of times, read his articles denying any choice, etc. etc.–“tumors all the way down.”

    Furthermore, I taught the Holocaust for man years to students, have read lots of tomes about Nazi Germany, lived in Palestine/israel…etc.

    But the fact that you reject objective ethics means that we are completely done.

    I am sick of talking with the thousands of individuals who claim that rape, slavery, slaughter, etc. aren’t really wrong!

    Done that for 55 years!

    To hell with that.

    Oh that’s right, you have no choice…EXIT!

  • Philip Bourdon

    Daniel, all Steve did is to prefer what verses in the Bible to focus upon, the same way everybody does and does differently. So, he quoted a bible verse; is that not enough for you?

  • Philip Bourdon

    Kate. Well said.

  • Philip Bourdon

    “God’s plan” ends up being whatever happened. We all need to think those words through before we speak them. If it is all God’s plan, then God does plan evil. Maybe we should not try to declare what was God’s plan as much as determine how we and others can respond with hope, faith, strength and love as we face problems.

  • Noah

    Come on, that’s a pretty naive question. Natives were already killing each other, as all humans do, well before whitey got here. Let’s not pretend they were all peaceful saints.

    Has there been any good out of the Holocaust? Yes. Rwanda? Yes. EVERYthing can be used towards ‘the better’. American slavery? Yes. Weinstein? Yes.

  • SCUBAsabre

    Thank you for this… I have literally had this discussion with some friends. It has always occurred for me as a hollow platitude that gave the person saying it some feeling of accomplishment while literally stunting the opportunity to actually help (as a listener, in action, in empathy, etc.) someone that is in pain or anguish.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Thanks for the dialogue and the invite, I will be sure to check it out.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Are you suggesting that selecting select some Bible verses about God,and rejecting others about him, selected according to my personal preference, is a reliable path to determining what is actually true about God?

    Mr. Tippens is certainly free to pick certain verses that resonate with the God he prefers, and reject others (presumably those that describe God as rewarding, exclusive, selective, punishing, giving, taking, etc), if it makes him happy. I merely suggest that this approach will lead only to a God of his own invention, one consistent with his preferences. It is hardly a reliable method to ascertain actual truth about the actual God who is there, whose being and character are not defined by our preferences.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Paula, I would be curious your understanding, if you don’t mind: is God, then, powerless to protect us from life’s painful events? You say he doesn’t send them, and that he is in or corner. If so, Why does he not try harder to shield us from painful events? Is he unwilling to intervene for some reason? Or simply powerless to effect a change in the course of events in order to protect us?

  • Bones

    You’re kidding.

    You drove them from their lands and rounded them up.

    Well I suppose it turned out good….for you.

  • Bones

    Well obviously it isn’t always wrong to rape, enslave, murder.

    Look at the old testament. .

    An ancient document saying those things are OK.

    Or the history of the USA.

    Once again your universal objective ethics is subjective.

    You can be done all you like, but that won’t change facts.

  • Bones

    It’s only the fact that you live in a democratic society that you have more choices than others.

    They are still limited.

    Who knows maybe north Korea might just choose to become a western democracy instead of a totalitarian dictatorship worshipping their supreme leader.

  • Noah

    Has there been any good out of the Holocaust? Yes. Rwanda? Yes. EVERYthing can be used towards ‘the better’. American slavery? Yes. Weinstein? Yes.

    Plenty of evil history has benefited you and your ancestors. Same as the natives. Same as -everyone-. Including Einstein.

    I drove them? Wth? 1 – I wasn’t alive. 2 – My ancestry in the U.S. goes back to about 1885.

    Turns out Einstein benefited from it as much as I have.

  • Rafi Simonton

    “God doesn’t give us more than we can handle.” Tell that to the person who leapt off the Golden Gate bridge. Or to the child badly burned in a war zone fire bombing. Or to victims of genocide. This cruel platitude means that all those in overwhelming distress themselves must be totally to blame if they cannot “handle” it. It also implies that whatever happens, including the outright heinous, is pre-determined, God given. Such that the only decent human response, which is refusing to consider these horrors acceptable, is to question God. Since that’s unthinkable, especially with the eternal damnation factor as primary, the fearful block their own anxiety by repeating this nonsense.

  • Recently I had a former coworker who was a great reasonable person. The day after her divorce she murdered her 9 year old girl and committed suicide. I do not excuse her actions, but she obviously was not of sound mind and was a victim herself. She, by definition had gotten more than she could handle.

  • Bones

    What good came out of the holocaust?

    The continual war and occupation in the middle east.

    No way was millions of deaths worth it.

    And you benefitted from the native American genocide…they didn’t.

    Really bizarre that people see genocide as a positive thing.

    What good things came out of 9/11?

    The Iraq war.

  • Kelly Brumfield

    I was widowed with a 4 year old and a 9 month old. Just when I managed to get back on my feet from losing my husband I had a stroke. I was 45. I couldn’t work so I lost my job, and with it went my health insurance. Then I had another stroke. I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid arthritis and severe hemolytic anemia. They gave me 2 units of blood, then I had another stroke. I started chemotherapy in 2016. I lost my hair. I am disabled, but social security won’t pay me… long boring story. If God doesn’t give you more than you can handle, apparently God thinks I’m a bad ass. Maybe He got me confused with Chuck Norris.

  • Kelly Brumfield

    So sad. You know she was insane if she murdered her own child. Mother’s just don’t do that. I’m so sorry for your loss.

  • Kelly Brumfield

    I am no expert by any means. I agree that the platitude ‘God doesn’t give you more than you can handle” is not helpful to anyone. I think it might be better to remind a person going thru grief or tragedy to lean on God because he is always there. I also believe that he has a plan for us. Yes, losing my husband in a car accident tore my soul in two, but my children were in the care too and they lived. That’s God. Satan said “I’m going to make Robert die.” God said, “Yes but you can’t kill the kids.” Satan said, “I will make Kelly have a stroke when she is 45.” God said, “Yes, but she will survive it.” You have to trust in God. Even when my husbands brother committed suicide (on my son’s birthday.) It was because he had a moment of doubt. I rest in knowing that God is taking care of me. That doesn’t mean I don’t have pain in my life, that was never promised. I just know that somehow it will all work out.

  • $144948586

    “Also what free will does a person raised in North Korea have?”
    That which the state allows…

  • $144948586

    “You are aware that the Allies had to reeducate the German population after WW2.”
    Because their Prussian-style education was used to indoctrinate children–not unlike the public education system of the U.S. (or Australia)–which are based upon such a system…

  • Herm

    Kelly, thank you for sharing your life mixed with so much pain and hope with us!!!

    Please, read the following John 14:15-21, 15:26-27, 16:1-15 as a promise fulfilled in my life. We know that it was fulfilled for others, at the very least, as when written in Acts 4:31. I know, with and in me, how you “just know that somehow it will all work out“, and it will. It all worked out for me when I lost everything of value that I had thought my life was all about, 23 years ago.

    Love you!

  • $144948586

    Or perhaps He cares more about us becoming “moral free agents” who will find their judgement and rest in Him and that He will restore all things and wipe away all tears–perhaps God can be who He wants to be: interventionist or restorationist or both or neither at any given moment in time.

    On thing we’re promised is that He, in Jesus, will wipe away all tears.

    I find a God who redeems my strife, my sin, and the harms others have done to me, is a God who gives a greater story than “everything is hunky dory”, and I find that God to be much more amusing and greater than I ever thought possible.

  • $144948586

    My thoughts on this topic are that in the end, Jesus will wipe away all tears–that He is currently restoring all things. The thing about omniscience and omnipotence is that it’s only cruel if God is unwilling to restore such things. Yet, we’re promised that He’s doing that even now.

  • swbarnes2

    Typical Christian dishonesty. No one is expecting God to fix EVERY evil. No one cares if God lets a kid skin their knee. But you want to tell a parent who lost a child to SIDS that it would have been wrong for God to step in and prevent that? Are you faithful enough to have told a grieving parent that?

    I imagine you believe in a God who warned Joseph that a famine was coming to Egypt, right? If you had known the day before that a tsunami was going to hit the coast of Japan and totally wipe out whole villages, are you sincerely saying that you would have felt absolutely no desire, let alone moral obligation to warn anyone? Let me just tell you that if you would honestly feel no trace of compassion for your fellow citizens strong enough to move you to try and save their lives, most people would feel such an obligation. But you think that it is moral for God to have said nothing? Even as you believe that God did warn people in the Bible of impending disaster, and gave them clear instructions on what to do? You think that now, it’s moral for God to say and do nothing? When pretty much every sinner on the planet would act if they could?

  • Noah

    Ok, troll. Keep on benefiting from the dead natives more than I have.

  • swbarnes2

    Your argument is Satan says what will happen, and God goes along?

    When God wanted to prevent the Israelites from starving, he dropped manna in the desert, right? I suppose you then conclude that if God had wanted to prevent polio, he would have dropped vaccine on the earth. Good thing people didn’t content themselves with saying “God is with all those children living in iron lungs”. To use your metaphor, rather than sitting back and watching Satan hurt children, as you say God does, people decided to protect all the children that God would not. And now, polio is almost eradicated.

    The alternative is, you don’t have to force yourself to say that horrible things really are in some way good. You can just say “This was horrible. It should not have happened”. Period. You don’t have to try and act like thinks that are deeply deeply hurtful are positive. You don’t have to make yourself believe that black is really white.

  • swbarnes2

    You look at the rates of infant mortality over the course of history, and that to you looks like the behavior of a God who wants more moral free agents in the world? Really?

  • Bones

    What an appalling comment!

    All because you can’t see beyond your own ideology.

  • Bones

    Which is the point…..

    Your free will is dictated by all sorts of things.

  • $144948586

    “You look at the rates of infant mortality over the course of history”
    No, I rest in the feeling that Jesus loves this world enough to die for it and at the hands of it. And I rest in the knowledge that He’s bigger than His death, our earthly mortality, or the random chaos that this world and our biology provides, and that He is just and merciful. And I rest in the relief that I can not lead Him around, that He convicts me, and that I’m called to repentance and see a knew side of love when I come around.

    “looks like the behavior of a God who wants more moral free agents in the world?”
    Yes; the behavior of a God that said to be fruitful and multiply; the behavior of a God that has a plan being worked out; the behavior of a God that took our iniquity upon Himself because He’s ransoming us from that very iniquity.

    “You look at the rates of infant mortality over the course of history,”
    I look at the high rates of child abandonment during Roman times (which Jesus never specifically addressed) and yet I still believe He loves all children enough to say “Allow them to come to me…”

    So yes, I believe He wants more and more moral free agents in this world.

  • $144948586

    Yup; like the state, whether a dictator or elected.

  • Bones

    Lol….someone’s still comparing western democracies to nazi Germany.

    Yes Josh, your child will be taught in the public system to accept gays and blacks much to your horror, and against your will.

  • $144948586

    Bones, you can make the fight about whatever you want; strawmen are not worth going to hell for.

    The fact is that you obviously see no problem in forcing the tax payment for a state-run public education though these institutions were responsible for indoctrinating children so much so that they had to be reeducated because they were convinced in the good of murdering millions.

  • Bones

    A moral free agent depends on your definition of morality which as we all know is subjective. Conservatives would gladly curtail the freedom of anyone not like them.

    And obviously not everything i’s hunky dory when we have the ability to destroy our own planet.

    This missing god of yours has a great sense of humour that can be counted in body bags.

    But that’s what happens when you believe in a god who gives you a car park when you pray for one yet can’t save lives.

  • $144948586

    “A moral free agent depends on your definition of morality which as we all know is subjective. ”
    There’s only one Truth, and you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.

    “Conservatives would gladly curtail the freedom of anyone not like them.”
    Could you be any more less prejudice?

    “And obviously not everything i’s hunky dory when we have the ability to destroy our own planet.”
    Never said it was; everyone should be free to go to hell the way they wish.

    “This missing god of yours has a great sense of humour that can be counted in body bags.”
    What about soul bags or [new] body bags?

    “But that’s what happens when you believe in a god who gives you a car park when you pray for one yet can’t save lives.”
    What?

  • Kelly Brumfield

    Most of life is your attitude. If you decide to be negative, all the negative will be abundantly clear. If you decide to be positive, all the postitive will be abundantly clear. No, I don’t believe that Satan is running anything. He will try, and only do that which God allows.

  • Herm

    swbarnes2, I really don’t know where you are coming from. Did I say, any where, that God and/or temporal carnal parents don’t do what they can, barring isolating their children from all risk in a rubber room?

    I don’t know what you are attributing “Typical Christian dishonesty” to. If you knew a little, but enough, regarding the teachings of Christ you would understand we share that we carry a cross for those who know not what they do, that we may die in the stead. You would know that we warn and we mend when we can. You would know that our treasure is not stored here where all will end for all. There is nothing physical on this earth that we all will not lose within 120 years, including familial relationships.

    You seem to believe that God and physical parents of the animal species mankind are morally obligated be the preventers of all struggle, pain, destruction, and overwhelming grief. What if I told you that God and carnal parents do act when they can, the best they know how. Why do you believe that I have insufficient compassion, empathy, and grief not to warn of and step between evil to save another? Why do you think I don’t share the pain and joy of others, all others of my species human kind?

    We are all, including God, subject to the consequences of the sum of the law affecting all life, that dictates what is most constructive to all empathetic, compassionate, tolerant and forgiving reasoning beings that states in everything do to all others as we would have all others do to us. God does not treat us like pets or puppets but exactly like They do themselves, all the while protecting us from what we cannot bear, the most we allow Them to.

    What do you expect of God and/or Man to fulfill their obligations to others?

  • Charles Winter

    We all will die. That is something more than we can handle.

  • Charles Winter

    That is very cruel. Ms. Brumfield is going through an extremely hard time, and all you can offer her is BS? Let’s be Samaritans and set up a gofundme site for her.

  • NEIL C. REINHARDT

    SO HAVE YOU?

  • Noah

    Wth are you talking about ideology? Seriously, I bet you can’t even describe it.

    Sorry you’re people have benefited more than mine.

  • Poe’s Law Incarnate

    That’s a very 21st Century American sort of approach.

    Perhaps if these Rwandans had been less negative, they wouldn’t have decomposed in an open field after being hacked to death with machetes. I’m looking for the up side on this one. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e4d41c83c7654b47b23f950a719ce8957f3825cfcc15ca1062550b1f7594f370.jpg

  • Rafi Simonton

    Could there be any better demonstration of the point of this article than your story and that tone deaf reply to it? As if verses taken out of context by someone showing little if any ability to manifest the least bit of empathy were the only thing faith has to offer. It’s a total rejection of Paul’s message about love. And a great way to repel seekers, very very few of whom would be convinced by this narrow opinion of a smug believer in God’s approval of evil and unbearable pain. Those of us with a more nuanced theological background and/or direct mystical experience of the divine can testify for a very different Christianity.

  • Bones

    I’m not the one saying good things happen because millions of people die.

    That’s a selfish western ideology devoid of facts.

    Heck look at last century…

    What good things came out of ww1???

    Millions dead
    Partitioning of middle east into arbitrary states
    Communism
    Nazism
    Ww2 and more millions dead
    Holocaust
    Nukes
    Stalinism
    The Iron Curtain
    Korean War
    Malayan Emergency
    Vietnam
    Middle East wars

  • D.M.S.

    And liberalism got us 60 million dead ripped out of the womb.
    Are you happy about that too?

  • D.M.S.

    Eventually for some of them. Getting to know that they have a Savior Christ Jesus.

  • D.M.S.

    Why not. You do it all the time.

  • Bones

    That’s what happens when ignorant idiots like yourself puff yourself up to be better than everyone else.

  • Bones
  • Bones

    The countries with the lowest rates of abortion are those countries which have liberal abortion laws.

    Countries which have banned abortions have the highest and the unsafest. And of course they make rape victims and children have their babies.

    Of course you care nothing for the millions of women who die having unsafe abortions.

    Btw in Numbers 5, God/Moses/unknown author gave instructions to apply an abortifacient which will kill the baby of the unfaithful wife.

    And of course you have Moses/unknown author telling the Israelites to kill all the non-virgin women (ie pregnant women).

    Must have been a great sight, ripping pregnant women’s bellies open.

    When did your god start caring about babies when he hates humanity and wants to torture it?

  • Noah

    Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood you’re a troll. Devoid of facts is refusing to acknowledge that we can and often do learn from mistakes.

    Yea – nuclear power. There’s absolutely no benefits from that. Military research NEVER leads to real world advancements. Good grief.

    Look, you made a claim that the natives dying was good for me. Turns out it was better for YOU. Live with it.

  • Bones

    Once again, I’m not the one stating that ‘good’ things happen out of evil.

    How bizarre that someone thinks genocide and nuclear destruction is a good thing.

    I outlined the facts of the ‘good’ things that came out of WW1.

    Heck even the nazis gave us ‘good’ things such as the autobahn and the volkswagen.

    Of course nothing good came about for the natives…you just slaughtered them and lived off their destruction.

    Good for you – not for them.

    You’re a real selfish prick.

  • Noah

    Aaaand there’s the insults.

    You’ll notice you’re lying. And not addressing the fact that dead natives benefited yours more than mine.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    I have always believed the whole “God doesn’t give us more than we can handle” narrative is just like the half-assed excuses for “advice” Pat Robertson gives his minions when they try to reach out to him – just a lazy excuse to get out of doing anything about it yourself instead of offering real help. I’m very skeptical that most of the people who propagate that narrative do so for any other reasons unless they’ve been led to believe it by that group.

  • My favorite: “God gave you a disability for a reason!”

  • Bones

    Didn’t work out too well for Job’s family though…….

    Hopefully you’re nowhere near humans.

  • Bones

    Yeah nah…..it’s not God given. Neither do things work out for good eg the extermination of the Lollards…..And the fact of suicide further makes the point of how that s nonsense theology.

    Apparently God made me write that.

  • Bones

    Nope…..

    We all have a breaking point, even Christ.

  • Bones

    I’m sure there are some here who will find it.

    A bit like it was good for white people that the Natives were exterminated…..

  • Bones

    No one commits suicide because of a “moment of doubt” ffs. It’s normally something they have been wrestling with for some time.

    And that dialogue between Satan and God is so infantile, because like Kelly is the centre of the universe unlike poor Robert.

    And the reality is most times it doesn’t work out.

  • Bones

    Just not gay ones….or transexuals….or blacks

  • Bones

    “There’s only one Truth, and you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.”

    There is Truth and I have it. Of course we can’t have these moral free agents being gay, nor transexual.

    Maybe one day you’ll get it too. Although it’s highly doubtful when you live in the exceptionalism of the US.

    “Could you be any more less prejudice?”
    Conservatives of course hate regulations on big companies but really want to curtail the rights of blacks, gays, transexuals….the important things.
    “Never said it was; everyone should be free to go to hell the way they wish.”
    There is no hell. It’s fiction.
    “What about soul bags or [new] body bags?”
    What’s a soul bag?
    “What?”
    Your god is the god of the mundane….the healer of headaches, sore backs and who cares for white American individualism…but couldn’t give a f*** about disasters or injustice. In fact it’s more concerned about standing for anthems than the deaths of innocent people.

  • Bones

    Of course CS Lewis believed Genesis was fiction….so was Jonah and Esther…..

    and he wrote

    in Reflections on the Psalms, that Christians “still believe (as I do) that all Holy Scripture is in some sense—though not all parts of it in the same sense—the Word of God.”

    Lewis also wrote that other religions would be saved and was a student of Universalism.

    “I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know Him. (C. S. Lewis, Letters of C. S. Lewis

    And on the inspiration of the Bible

    “The main difficulty seems to me not the question whether the Bible is ‘inspired’, but what exactly we mean by this. Our ancestors, I take it, believed that the Holy Spirit either just replaced the minds of the authors (like the supposed ‘control’ in automatic writing or at least dictated to them as to secretaries. Scripture itself refutes these ideas. … I myself think of it as analogous to the Incarnation – that, as in Christ a human soul-and-body are taken up and made the vehicle of Deity, so in Scripture, a mass of human legend, history, moral teaching, et cetera, are taken up and made the vehicle of God’s Word. Errors of minor fact are permitted to remain. (Was Our Lord Himself incapable, [as] Man, of such errors? Would it be a real human incarnation if He was?) One must remember of course that our modern and western attention to dates, numbers, et cetera, simply did not exist in the ancient world. No one was looking for that sort of truth.” (Lewis, To Lee, 28)
    Regarding the gospels, he did not believe that they were divine word, or inerrant, but rather human reporting: “I have been reading poems, romances, vision-literature, legends, myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know that not one of them is like this. Of this text there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage – though it may no doubt contain errors – pretty close up to the facts; nearly as close as Boswell. Or else, some unknown writer in the 2nd century, without known predecessors, or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern, novelistic, realistic narrative. If it is untrue, it must be narrative of that kind. The reader who doesn’t see this has simply not learned to read. (C.S. Lewis 29)
    “We may observe that the teaching of Our Lord Himself, in which there is no imperfection, is not given us in that cut-and-dried, fool-proof, systematic fashion we might have expected or desired. He wrote no books. We have only reported sayings, most of them uttered in answer to questions, shaped in some degree by their context. And when we have collected them all we cannot reduce them to a system….He will not be, in the way we want, “pinned down.” (Lewis, 30)

    And Jesus was wrong!

    “Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.” It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” (Lewis, The World’s Last Night, 34)

  • Bones

    Wow I never realised CS Lewis was so like me.

    I always wondered how a person can be truly human and not make mistakes.

  • Bones

    Perhaps you can answer that.

    It’s quite clear god doesn’t even shield little kiddies from horrific deaths.

    If you believe in a god that is sovereign and reigning, and omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, he has a lot to answer for.

  • Bones

    Of course, that’s if the biblical author didn’t invent his idea of god.

  • Bones

    The only liar here is you.

    You’re the one who thinks he’s benefitted from the natives.

    I think its a f***ing tragedy.

    And still is.

    You’re like hey “good things came out of the Nazis because we learned from the experiments they did on Jews and Russian prisoners of war.”

    Screw the poor bastards who went through it.

  • Bones

    If you people hate Corey so much, why do you hang around?

    It’s almost like you want to be triggered.

  • Daniel Fisher

    I certainly harbor no hatred toward Dr. Corey. Since you asked, I come here for two reasons:

    First, if in any context I am going to speak in opposition of the position of Dr. Corey or others of his perspective, I want to be absolutely sure I understand, from the inside out, exactly what his position is and why he holds it. Posing challenging questions helps to understand the underlying reasoning for various beliefs that are held, and helps me deeply understand it…. in short, I want to be sure that if and when I critique his or similar positions, I am not attacking a straw man.

    Secondly, I come here to be challenged myself. “The unexamined life is not worth living,” I believe Socrates said? If I only hung around on web sites and discussion boards wherein I agreed largely with the sentiment, I would rarely be deeply challenged. Because ultimately, I am interested in determining what is actually true, not what fits my preferences.

    Thus I like to read the sentiments of those with which I have most disagreement, offer my critiques, and invite my own perspectives to be similarly challenged, so I can jettison any belief that proves unsupported or invalid.

    Therefore my intent is to present critiques that are logical, well-thought, substantial, relevant, and which try to strike at the crux of the inherent logic (or lack thereof) of the point under discussion. And I am delighted when the favor is returned, and someone offers sincere, logical, well-thought, relevant responses to my position that force me to examine my position, defend it, adjust it, or occasionally abandon it. (A response by a commenter under the name of Etranger just recently forced me to adjust my understanding on one topic, and his critique was most welcome). Receiving well-thought responses that are offered to invite serious discussion and engage with the ideas under discussion is always appreciated, and I always endeavor to respond thoughtfully to any such respectful and reasonable challenges.

    All too often, however, I just receive snide comments, sarcastic shots, mischaracterizations of my position, or unwarranted assumptions about my motives – tossed out just to try to win rhetorical points, gain a rhetorical upper hand, to set a rhetorical trap, or which are just the commenter’s hobby horse, irrelevant to the question at hand… all of which are clearly not invitations to polite or reasonable discussion and do not aid in the search for genuine truth. In such cases you may appreciate that I typically prefer to simply ignore such useless barbs.

  • Noah

    Lol. You keep making stuff up. The record is clear, you make up a claim despite it being absent from this conversation. You shift your claims after I point out how wrong you are. You can’t explain or show your claims.

    Here’s a surprise; I lost relatives in the Holocaust. You did not. Your people have benefited from privileged in the U.S. waaaaay longer than any of mine have.

    Give up the trolling, troll.

  • Bones

    The record is clear that you are a liar.

    You’re the one who thinks they’ve benefited from dead injuns.

    And look at the good things that came out of the holocaust – the oppression of the Palestinian people. No doubt you think that’s a good thing.

    AND I’ m not a yank, you idiot.

    In fact the troll here is you with your simpleton, trite answers.

  • Bones

    Oh yeah…..let’s apply that thinking to real life.

    Starving people in the Sudan don’t matter because they’re going to paradise.

    This chess game your God is playing with people’s lives is horrific.

  • D.M.S.

    All women should have their babies no exceptions.

  • Noah

    Haha! No. You make blatant lies regarding what I have said. You literally can not disprove this. The proof of you lying is all here. Unless of course you delete it.

    That’s a nice high school slide from trying to shame me about the dead Jews & Russians (here’s a shocker: my side has Russian background also) to trying to shame me about Palestinians.

    You sure sound like a Yank. Keep up all the trolling on these boards! It certainly keeps you occupied.

  • Bones

    The only lies are from you buddy.

    You’re the one who thinks good things came out of the holocaust.

    I’m just showing you facts which show your trite little comfy saying and ideology to be full of shit.

    No, not everything ends up for the good.

    Don’t worry kid..It’ll all work out for good. Just not for your family that was hacked to death.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/26b576faf8aa7123c7ceb3f5ac400b1dbb8ed19659c9a11def542f9a7ce42c61.jpg

    Just ask Noah.

  • Bones

    Yes, we saw this in Ireland where a woman died after being made to have her dead baby.

    You don’t get to dictate to women what they can and can’t do.

  • D.M.S.

    It doesn’t matter..
    All women should have to have their babies, no exceptions.

  • Noah

    Serious question – have you studied that area? (and/or elsewhere) It’s stereotypical a bit, but we often see people groups with ‘nothing’ that appear to be more positive and joyful than people groups with lots of ‘earthly’ stuff and/or easier lives.

    There is solid data and studies on populations that have great wealth and easy lives being much unhappier and negative than those with much less.

    Upside – ? Reconciliation, for one. Looking at the positive does NOT mean ignoring the negative. But across the globe and throughout history (and in that area) there have been beautiful human stories of reconciliation/forgiveness/moving on.

    (for anyone replying, please save the ‘shock’ response and actually respond to the legitimate points)

  • Noah

    You really went off the deep end in this one.

  • Poe’s Law Incarnate

    There’s “I am poor but able to be happy nonetheless” and there there is “I am rotting in a field because I was murdered with an axe along with my family, neighbors, and everyone else I knew”.

    If you are saying that because third parties were able to forgive the murderers, that this is a net positive, I don’t believe we have much to discuss. That’s still a very 21c American attitude.

  • Noah

    So, have you studied the area? Or others across the Globe and History where absolutely terrible things have happened? I would argue that NOT forgiving is quite prevalent in the U.S. It’s history, long or near, is filled with people groups facing hate. There is a lot to be learned from people who seem to live absolutely terrible lives, but live with much joy. I don’t see this in the U.S. (people groups in general).

    Why would say I may view it as a net positive? I said it does NOT mean ignoring the awful. Definitely not primarily a 21c American thing. It’s Global, and definitely has a long history. Very biblical as well, I imagine the same in many other religions.

  • Gross.

    If you want those babies born, YOU can gestate them. Women are not incubators.

  • D.M.S.

    That’s one of the many things women were created for.
    But it’s okay for women to be murderers. You live in a very dark world.

  • Wrong and gross, but what else do I expect from misogynist fetus-fetishists such as yourself.

    BLOCKED.

    I hope you never get within touching distance of anything with a uterus, including preserved medical specimens.

  • D.M.S.

    To late….

  • Bones

    Yes it is true. She died of sepsis from her dead baby.

  • Bones

    Yes we know women don’t matter to you.

    Neither do their babies really.

    You’re only going to condemn them to hell anyway if they don’t end up like you.

    Actually this is the nonsense that you people believe.

    It would be better if those babies weren’t born.

  • Bones

    Pro-lifers still trying to excuse their politics of death…..

    The law in force at the time (the Offences against the Person Act 1861), states that the act of abortion, where there is no immediate physiological threat to the woman’s life to continue the pregnancy, is a criminal offence punishable by life imprisonment. Following a ruling of the Supreme Court of Ireland in 1992—now known in Ireland as the X case—terminations are allowed under certain circumstances, where “a pregnant woman’s life was at risk because of pregnancy, including the risk of suicide”.[4] However at the time of Halappanavar’s death, there was legal uncertainty regarding the precise circumstances in which this exception to preserve the life of the mother would apply in practice, as the matter had not yet been enacted in legislation. The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 was passed as a result of her death.

    Seems they had to alter the law because of her death.

    And you lied for her reason for wanting an aborion.

    Savita Halappanavar, pregnant at 17 weeks with her first baby, went to the hospital with her husband Praveen on 21 October 2012 complaining about back pain. She was examined and discharged, and then returned to the hospital a few hours later after she felt something “coming down.” An examination showed that the gestational sac had protruded into her vagina, almost to the opening. She was admitted to the hospital for observation, as a miscarriage appeared to be inevitable.[2]:22-26 Her water broke just after midnight on 22 October.[2]:29 On the 23 the Halappanavars discussed terminating the pregnancy early with one of the consultant doctors: according to the 2013 Health Service report: “O&G Consultant 1 stated that the patient and her husband were advised of Irish law in relation to this. At interview the consultant stated ‘Under Irish law, if there’s no evidence of risk to the life of the mother, our hands are tied so long as there’s a fetal heart’. The consultant stated that if risk to the mother was to increase a termination would have been possible, but that it would be based on actual risk and not a theoretical risk of infection ‘we can’t predict who is going to get an infection'”.[2]:33 Midwife manager Ann Maria Burke attempted to calm the couple and explained that the termination cannot be carried out because Ireland is “a Catholic country”.[5] Halappanavar began to develop signs of sepsis, and the hospital decided to insert a central line to better manage her condition, and had also decided to administer misoprostol to induce delivery; the medication was not given because she delivered a stillborn girl in the procedure room where the central line was being inserted.[2]:44-46 The sepsis continued to worsen, and at 1:09am, on Sunday 28 October, she died.[2]:53

    Do Irish women who go to the UK to have abortions face life imprisonment?

  • $144948586

    “Just not gay ones….or transexuals….or blacks”
    Bones, you know this just isn’t true.
    I’ve not been unaccepting of any of these. This is what you like to make the argument about; it’s fine, but it’s dishonest. You’d rather make people think you’re attacking some bigot (because that’s easier) than dealing with the fact that you are a liar who passes sweeping judgment on another–in this case, you misdirect the discussion–in every case, you practically misdirect the discussion. When you or Otro read my comments, you naturally assume “I must be against black people.”

    Hell, you know I’m an anarchist, yet you want to lump me with those (and you lump conservatives and capitalists, who, by definition would not do the following) who would use government to suppress the rights of others. Again, it’s dishonest. You are dishonest. It’s incredibly tiring to argue with you, because you and your fascist ilk will lead each other into a hellish existence in which ultimately you’re not happy. Or, if happiness talks like you do, I want no part of it.

    As I’ve said before, it’s pathetic.

  • $144948586

    Please see my other response; you make me out to be something I’m not. I’m tired of you’re dishonesty, conflation, and obfuscation. And, quite frankly, I’m tired of your vulgar language and the way you treat people.
    http://disq.us/p/1n7rmxz

  • Tiny J

    When ever I hear “It’s part of God’s plan” for something undeniably terrible to happen, I point out that it’s Satan who comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Not God.

  • Tiny J

    What? It’s the easiest thing in the world. Anyone can do it!

  • Tiny J

    Do you have a crowdsourcing page we can donate to?

  • Tiny J

    Point of interest:
    “A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.”
    Key word: receive. That passage isn’t about having things taken away.

  • Tiny J

    He’s not powerless, and he does so intervene so… what?
    Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, not God.

    And the ideal that God will set up absolute reign on earth is how the Bible ends. When that happens, the same people who demand “How can God let this happen?” will scream “What if I don’t WANT God’s help, huh?!”

  • Tiny J

    Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy.
    The greatest trick Satan ever pulled was not convincing the world he doesn’t exist. It was convincing the world to blame God for his work.

  • Tiny J

    Pain makes us stronger. Comfort makes us weaker.
    Make no mistake: God does protect us. I’ve seen it. He’s perfectly willing to intervene. I’ve seen it. He’s not powerless to effect change. He’s not going to do it if it cripples us or teaches us not to walk the path set before us. Key word: Walk. Walking requires effort, energy, and time. Walking takes us from where we are to where we should be.
    Life is painful because the world isn’t perfect. Pain is necessary for growth. Exercise=Pain. Waking up early=pain. Eating healthy=pain. Sexual discipline=pain. Serving God when your life legitimately sucks=pain. Living long enough to see your loved ones die=Pain.
    I’ve never met someone I respect who hasn’t suffered. I’ve never met someone who had a purpose in life, but also had a life free of pain. “No pain” is a goal fit only for the perverse.

  • Tiny J

    Stick to one scripture at a time. When you do a bunch like this it reads like “Watch me be wrong in a whole bunch of ways! Then, you’ll NEVER be able to speak against me!”
    The good news is: your correct. That’s a tangle that can’t be untangled. You should pray about it.

  • Tiny J

    You should try “Sucks to be you. Want a beer? I’m buying.”
    I love my friends.

  • Tiny J

    “Eventually people-who-are-not-me have to grow up”.
    *Immediately lashes out in pain trying to spread his hurt to other people.

  • Tiny J

    You kick that straw man’s ass!

  • Tiny J

    You kick that straw man’s ass! Show him who’s boss!

  • Tiny J

    What did your church say about pain? Since life is painful, what did the pastor say when he preached about it?

  • Tiny J

    “God has a plan.”
    “So does the Devil. Which one likes to hurt people?”

  • Tiny J

    A good tree cannot produce good fruit and a bad tree cannot produce bad fruit.
    Who’s calling people disgusting here?
    Who’s calling who judgmental?
    Who’s insulting someone else’s understanding? Repeatedly?
    Who’s accusing someone’s goodness of masking an evil motive?

  • Tiny J

    To answer your last questions in order:
    No.
    It’s not.
    Hell no.
    Internet comments are no substitute for actual spiritual leadership, tho :(

  • Because Catholic doctrine mandates keeping the fetus alive at all costs. Sepsis is no fun.

  • D.M.S.

    Yes it did they’re all in heaven.

  • D.M.S.

    Who is God giving that too?
    Everyone?
    Christians only?
    Who(m)?

  • D.M.S.

    Where did Christ Jesus have a breaking point?

  • Bones

    Please take this cup from me, sweating blood, My God, my God why have you forsaken me.

  • Bones

    Says who…they weren’t even Jewish. He was an Edomite (you know one of those that the Israelites were supposed to have wiped out). They’re no different to the millions who are dying right now.

  • Bones

    No doubt you would say the same of Christ when he confronted the pharisees.

    If people want to come here and act like arseholes, they will be called out.

  • Bones

    Not so much the straw man as kicking your arse.

    I wasn’t aware that people’s suffering was a strawman.

  • Bones

    “Can’t answer basic questions about life and suffering.”
    “Hides behind trite suppositions thinking it makes themselves look smart”.

  • Bones

    Yawn…..bogeyman stories are for children.

    Do you speak in anything other than cliches?

    You are aware that even according to your warped worldview your god is powerless in the face of your satan.

  • Bones

    You have a history of anti-gay, anti-black and anti-trans comments.

    Heck you’re even worried about sending your kids to school because they’ll be taught to accept gays, blacks and trans.

    This from a guy who wants the State to punish people he doesn’t like yet calls the state out as fascist for providing health care for the poor..

  • Bones

    This is true….

    You’ve made it quite clear who you don’t like. Gays, blacks, transexuals….

    Honestly the pathetic one is the one who wants the State to protect him from transexuals while moaning about the State helping the poor.

  • Bones

    It’s quite clear the woman wanted an abortion because she knew there were problems with her pregnancy. She was denied it on the basis of Irish Law. It was more than medical negligence. This is negligence created by religion and the laughably named pro-Lifers.

    Is the fact that Irish Law had to be changed after her death Pro-Choice propaganda?

    Ireland’s abortion problem: new report lays bare the horrifying truth
    A new in-depth Amnesty International study reveals at least 4,000 women are forced to leave Ireland for abortions each year, with many resorting to dangerous DIY options. Radhika Sanghani reports

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11660028/Irelands-abortion-problem-New-report-lays-bare-the-horrifying-truth.html

  • D.M.S.

    Scripture…

  • D.M.S.

    Nothing broken there that I see…but fallen man likes to think so.
    Christ Jesus knew exactly why He was there.

  • $144948586

    “You’ve made it quite clear who you don’t like.”
    Again, you’re a liar.

    “Honestly the pathetic one is the one who wants the State to protect him from transexuals while moaning about the State helping the poor.”
    I’ve made no such case about the State, but I agree that hypocrisy and bigotry would be pathetic.

  • $144948586

    “You have a history of anti-gay, anti-black and anti-trans comments.”
    Where?

    “Heck you’re even worried about sending your kids to school because they’ll be taught to accept gays, blacks and trans.”
    This isn’t true; I’ve worried about sending my kids to a public schools whose performances are substandard and whose funding is coerced.

    “This from a guy who wants the State to punish people he doesn’t like yet calls the state out as fascist for providing health care for the poor..”
    I’ve also not said this either.

    Bones, it’s really not worth going to hell over. It’s clear that you’re miserable, and it will only stop when you step past your bankrupt arguments and admit “I really don’t have a leg to stand on.” Or else, you can stay a miserable, vulgar, and dishonest person.

  • barry

    When you reply, I have to decide whether you have the scholarly wherewithal to actually contribute anything of substance. So far, you appear to be made up of little more than quick little snippets of self-confident hoo-hah and not much more.

    Your recommendation that an atheist should pray about something, does wonders for your reputation.

    As far as one scripture at a time, I don’t know when or if I’ll be banned by bible-believing Christians from their blogs, so I have to make sure in my posts that I’ve given the readers a reply that is sufficiently comprehensive. Doesn’t matter if I’m banned now, Dr. Corey will likely have a difficult time trying convince his Christian readers that the Father of Jesus was the same God who propagated fear-based faith as I described from Deuteronomy, Isaiah and Hosea.

  • barry

    Your god also does the killing. He takes personal credit for all murder in general (Deut. 32:39), and is the only agency the bible blames for the baby born to David and Bathsheba suffering horrible sickness for 7 days before finally dying. 2nd Samuel 12:15-18.

    Since the originally intended readers of the David-stories probably didn’t sign their names to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, there’s a fair probability that they could have taken “And Jehovah struck the child” (2nd Samuel 12:15) in the plain ordinary sense of Jehovah doing the killing. In Job 1, God is the mob boss who orders the killings, and Satan is the punk being paid to carry it out in a certain way. What fool would argue the mob-boss cannot be guilty because he only ordered, but didn’t commit, the hit?

  • swbarnes2

    But that is the Bible’s answer. Jesus didn’t say that the man born blind was just unlucky. Jesus said that the man was born blind to be an example of God’s power to others when he was eventually healed. God killed everyone on Passover for the same reason, and Job’s family.

  • swbarnes2

    Nowhere did I say that anyone expects anyone to be the preventers of ALL pain. You lie again. You just can’t stop. You could not accurately repeat what I wrote if your life depended on it. Your soul DOES depend on being a honest person, but you can’t exert yourself for that either, I guess.

    Just tell us, if you KNEW that a tsunami was going to kill a whole village of men, women and children, would you try to warn them? A moral person without hesitation would answer “YES!”. Would you? If your answer is ‘yes’, why do you worship a God who is less moral than you are?

    If your answer is “I would do like my God and not lift a finger, and watch as children drowned” than say so honestly. If you are capable of honesty.

  • swbarnes2

    You sincerely think that is is the plan of anyone moral for 40% of children to die, and for millions and millions of people to walk around scarred for life by the deaths of their children? That is sick. Very, very sick.

    I bet if you knew that a tsunami was going to drown a hundred children, you really would think it was moral to stand back and watch and do nothing. I bet you’d get a kick out of comforting the survivors, and that’s more moral than preventing the death of children, right?

  • $144948586

    “You sincerely think that is is the plan of anyone moral for 40% of children to die, and for millions and millions of people to walk around scarred for life by the deaths of their children?”
    No, swbarnes. I also don’t think that God thinks this was the plan either. In fact I believe it tells us that within the first 2 chapters of Genesis, no?
    What I do believe though is that God is bigger than death, and whilst His heart breaks for the death (children and adult) that plagues the earth, I also believe He revealed to us, in Jesus, that He’s bigger than death and that He holds the power of eternal life, even AND ESPECIALLY for these children.
    The fact is, this life, this earth is not our ultimately end–it’s not a very long time at all; we’re but a vapor that is here for an instant.

    This isn’t to make light of dying children; instead, it is to make light of God’s providence over them.

    “I bet if you knew that a tsunami was going to drown a hundred children, you really would think it was moral to stand back and watch and do nothing.”
    This vitriol is horrific; what have I said to deserve such disgust? I can understand if you’ve suffered such horrendous things; I can understand the dejection you have toward people like me holding out optimism when you can’t find such hope. If you must put that on me, that’s fine. But, I don’t want to be portrayed as someone unsympathetic to the needs of people here and now–I don’t think I’m deserving of mischaracterization.

    “I bet you’d get a kick out of comforting the survivors, and that’s more moral than preventing the death of children, right?”
    If I can help, I’d hope I’d have the bravery to help. If I don’t, then I am certainly in the wrong.

  • Herm

    The only way I could have kept my carnal children from dying, scars, grief, and pain was not to have chosen to give them my half of their birth. Eternal life is dependent, for myself and my children, on dying to carnal treasures and traditions by accepting love for all. To become a sibling of my Lord I have to love so strongly my enemies that I must carrying my cross to painfully die on that they may have time to see and accept the Spirit of truth.

    You, by your attitude, condemn the existence of an omniscient God because They don’t keep you and yours from pain and death, because if They were responsible for your insecurity They should be crucified, and because you mistakenly believe life is predicated a quest for all out safety in the end. There is no end and there never was a beginning to life in spirit. You still have the cosmos opportunistically revolving around you as special rather than accepting yourself having this opportunity for awareness and influence as a small insignificant little physical speck that is and then isn’t within 120 years, out of 14.5 billion years since the physical cosmos began.

    You seem to want to be a puppet doll dressed and moved without any risky choices of your own, and then put away for the evening in your comfy little doll house.

    If God is omnipotent, and relative to you and me They are, then They could prevent all pain and death. They had long enough to reason this physical human kind thing out to know the risks and the best choice, by your logic, is to simply make certain we never had awareness, influence and choice, ever; as would have been my choice if I didn’t feel the risks were far outweighed by the potential for opportunity for my children.

    You don’t think God gives us enough warning if we transgress in everything doing to others as we would have others do to us? You don’t think God graces us with enough that we, as one mankind, have every opportunity to survive for an eternity?

  • Been waiting for healing for 36 years, and I’ve got the distinct feeling I’ve been lied to the entire time.

  • Bones

    Errrrr…..

    We see it in your comments about gays, black lives matter, Blacks protesting at football games, the racist canard that blacks are violent and kill each other, the obsession with transexuals in toilets.

    Your comment about schools is completely dishonest. You’ve made it quite clear that you don’t want schools teaching your children things you don’t want taught. (Eg accepting gays, blacks, trans).

    I mean you’re the one supporting the State restricting toilets to transexual people.

    The only miserable one here is you.

    Always moaning about how bad the world is because of socialists and poor people getting health care and taking your taxes because that’s so fascist…..

    I love it….My country’s great.

    Who knows maybe one day you might be able to rise above your fear of others you don’t like and your government.

    Maybe when you grow up a bit.

  • Bones

    The facts again are that Ireland had to change its abortion laws after Savita’s death….

    What a surprise you don’t like Amnesty International……

    People never do when their humans rights abuses are pointed out.

    SHE IS NOT A CRIMINAL
    THE IMPACT OF IRELAND’S ABORTION LAW

    In 2009, Nicola was 19 weeks into her second pregnancy when a routine scan revealed a problem with the foetus. After a more detailed follow-up scan medical staff told her that the impairment was fatal and there
    was no chance of survival. Nicola told Amnesty International: “I thought straight away that they would induce me but the nurse explained they couldn’t do that because it’s classed as a termination and wasn’t allowed in this country.” She remembers thinking:

    “You just can’t leave me carrying the baby when the baby’s going to die. I can’t do it, I can’t do it. I just couldn’t comprehend, I just thought I was going to pass out… I think I cracked when I asked them when they
    would induce me. I was just so naïve. I just thought automatically that they’d induce me if the baby was that sick.”

    Unable to afford the cost of travelling outside of Ireland in order to procure an abortion, and unwilling to “put myself and my family under the [financial] pressure” in order to do so, Nicola says she was forced to remain in Ireland and to continue with her pregnancy.
    “I was conforming to what they do in Ireland. So a woman makes that decision, surely then there should be support for her once she’s made the decision to carry her baby – not to have a termination as they call it.
    There was nothing, no support for me whatsoever, nothing.”

    Nicola went to the hospital every week for a scan. “Most women are getting scans to make sure their baby is alive. I was getting a scan to see if my baby had died,” recalls Nicola. After five weeks the medical staff
    confirmed that the foetus had died. “Straight away the doctor came in, we can take you in tomorrow, this evening, now to induce you.”

    Following her induction and delivery, Nicola developed an infection due to a retained placenta, which required further hospitalization and care.

    “If I had been offered the induction from the start, I could have been saved this whole trauma, I strongly believe. I would have been saved the trauma of our friends offering us money, feeling under pressure to make
    this decision, facing the trauma of all these infections and having to spend time in the hospital, reliving my story every night because people were coming in. When I think about it, I just feel nothingness, there was no care.”173

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/files/she_is_not_a_criminal_report_-_embargoed_09_june.pdf

  • Bones

    I would say if someone thinks God’s forsaken them, they’ve been broken.

  • Bones

    Scripture says nothing about where Job’s Edomite family went.

  • $144948586

    Where?

  • Tiny J

    I can answer basic questions about life and suffering. It’s why I asked what your spiritual leadership already taught you about it.
    So…what?

  • Tiny J

    You don’t believe the Bible, but its wrong of me to not reinforce my point with the Bible?
    Did that make sense before you typed it ou?

  • Tiny J

    You don’t believe in the Bible, but the reason I’m not correcting your misunderstanding of the Bible is a character flaw? It’s not because it would take a lot of typing and produce no result?
    Okay.
    You might consider the difference between self confidence and actual confidence as well. Then Google “projecting” or maybe “schadenfreude”.

  • Tiny J

    Using Nazis and Native Americans is the strawiest of straw men. And your blanket point of nothing good coming out of the WWs and westward expansion is silly. Of course “some” good comes out of horror. IBM started as a Nazi company, freeways were built because America was jealous of the autobahn, penicillin was funded by blood money, etc.
    No one even remembers what your actual point was supposed to be. Your just being angry for anger’s sake, Emperor Palpatine. Your skill at being upset doesn’t legitimize it.

  • Tiny J

    Lol

  • Tiny J

    You’ve already admitted that the trauma in your past is why you hate God, but she’s out of line for feeling sorry for you? What?! Also, you equated your mission to spread hate and misery with being like Jesus, so.. Yeah. That’s a thing…

  • Tiny J

    North Korean’s do choose to become western democrats btw.

  • Bones

    Only because they’ve been educated in democracy…..or running for their lives.

  • Bones

    I haven’t admitted any such thing.

    I’ve pointed out how trite and false your cliches are. Unless you’re God.

    But you’ll still believing them thinking your comforting people when you’re just spreading complete bs.

  • Bones

    Rofl…

  • Bones

    Der……Just because you can’t apply your cliches to the Holocaust doesn’t make it a strawman dufus.

    If you think all things work for good then it should apply to all situations eg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2d822a62cec767a23ad581174c66c0b6b5f91ea7f046729ef7107495f9b87c21.jpg

    I don’t blame you for disowning it. I would as well.

  • Bones

    You didn’t ask anything….

    I know about life and suffering by living through it…..not by what some guy from college says….

    You should try actually living in the real world some time instead of your comfortable world of neat cliches.

  • Bones

    Typical pro-life bs ignoring the stories and lives of women….

    The abortion law in Ireland had to be changed after the death of Savita Halappanavar for which you claim it had no role at all.

  • jekylldoc

    Daniel, while I am not in a position to answer your question definitively, I am satisfied with the answer expressed in “When Bad Things Happen to Good People,” namely that it is better for us to share with suffering people from a theology that assumes God could not prevent the suffering than from a theology that argues God had some higher purpose for it, or was indifferent to it.

    The God we have in our minds when we pray is a symbolic representation of something. Some theologians argue that it (or “he”) represents the ground of being, the substrate of consciousness that is prior to any subject-object split used for analysis. This makes sense to me, since I think the goal of spiritual life is to regard everyone, and everything, as “Thou” (not “it”), so that we encounter everything directly without an agenda of using or manipulating anything.

    An assertion that God must have a higher purpose in mind, which we cannot fathom, is an acceptance of a subject-object split between us and God. It buys into making God an “It” which we regard at a distance and theorize about, which is likely to lead to negotiating with or otherwise trying to manipulate that God holding our fate in the balance. It is also far colder than concluding that the universe has some chaotic processes which cause suffering, and that God wholeheartedly wants us to suffer less.

  • Tiny J

    Apologies, wrong thread. I was asking before “What did your pastor say about how to deal with pain?” I thought it was part of this thread.
    I’m just going to assume you understand the irony of YOU telling me to live in the real world instead of cliché-world.

  • Tiny J

    Okay. That led to the Hogue convention, putting preventative measures in place to keep millions more people from dying.
    I played your stupid game, so lay off the clichés.

  • Tiny J

    So… your just going to keep regurgitating the same clichés? No mention of the fact that you’re motivated solely by spreading misery to people who disagree with you? Seriously, you’re not even trying to say anything, just take, take, take, away from others.
    Also, I thought that who’ll decapitation thing you were talking about before was real, so that’s my bad.

  • Tiny J

    Yeah. Only because they learn about it and/or run away from their own country.
    ?
    You said “A North Korean raised and indoctrinated in North Korea isn’t going to choose to become a western democrat” when in fact they constantly do that thing that you say they won’t do. Now your saying… what, exactly? It doesn’t count?

  • Tiny J

    No. Thank you anyway. I’m not interested in giving you a Bible lesson.

  • jekylldoc

    Well, but. . . schizophrenia is also genetic in basis, and there are many psychological disorders which are more physiological than social in origin. Sin causes much of our suffering, but not all of it. Attributing all suffering to human choices is avoiding a big part of the issue.

  • T. Tate

    I have never liked the expression, “God will not put any more on you than you can handle.” If I am in the midst of a personal storm, I do not want to think that God had anything to do with my troubles. I look to God to give me hope in regards to my current situation. I pray to God to give me strength to go through my current situation. I tell God that I will share my good testimonies of love, grace and mercy to other people.

  • Catherine Flusche-Gillikin

    I’m a deist bordering on atheist. I said this, more or less, to a grieving widow this past Saturday. Her seemingly healthy, but 80+ year old husband had passed away during the night before. She was stunned, confused, angry, etc, all perfectly normal parts of grief. She started hinting at suicide because they’ve been together since she was 16 and she relied on him completely.

    I feel that this advice was entirely appropriate because the alternative undermines the need for a god. As a deist/atheist, I default to “we as humans are strong on our own”, but Christians believe in a god, so “God’s Will be done”. If this makes Christians of a certain type uncomfortable, then their faith isn’t that strong to start with. And I find it strange for a Christian pastor to promote humanist ideology.

    Belief in Satan makes Christianity polytheistic, so yes, if you believe that God is involved in day to day events, then yes, God causes cancer and car accidents and everything in between. Of all the things the Christian God gets billed for that’s actually the one I’m most comfortable with as a deist/atheist.

    I read a Christian conservative blogger say that Jesus holds the keys of Hell. This seems appropriate in a monotheistic religion.

  • T. Tate

    I have endured job losses, and illnesses. Some days during that time were better than others, but I never stopped believing in God. God was my only hope and I put my faith in God. I applied for jobs and I took medications, but it was God, that changed my situations. I am now a living testimony, and a voice of encouragement, for other people that are going through the same situations that I went through.

  • Bones

    I wasn’t aware the holocaust and genocide were cliches.

    When you actually have an argument, aside from rants about nothing in particular, let me know.

    And yeah my life experiences are real. Cleaning my Dad’s brain matter out of the garage was real. Being there when my sister was told her husband had been decapitated by a bus was real.

    So f*** off.

    Tiny – an apt name. Obviously describes the size of your brain and intellect.

  • Bones

    Lol….ever heard of indoctrination dipstick.

    Sort of like you’ve been with your gay hating mates.

    The only cure to indoctrination is education.

  • Bones
  • Bones

    Wtf…..genocide isn’t a cliche….that’s only in your world.

    The world of trite answers and falsehoods.

  • Bones

    Wtf…I’m talking about your gay hating friends. The ones who come on here every day telling us how much they hate gays. Even wanting to see them dead.

    Obviously comprehension isn’t a strongpoint with you either.

    Indoctrination has everything to do with it. Education of course being the ability to open your mind and learn from others.

    That is not happening in North Korea.

    We see it from the people like yourself who come one here to defend your ridiculous beliefs by attacking others.

    The only hope for you people is education.

  • Bones

    Thy are only cliches to you because they show how stupid your little world is.

    What a pathetic human to claim that genocide and the holocaust are ‘cliches’ and how the f*** is addressing genocide and human suffering bringing pain to others. Actually it’s you who just reduced pain and suffering to a cliche. Why? because it doesn’t fit your bullshit view of the world.

    If you caný handle it f*** off.

    Hey people, Tiny brain wants you to think of all the good things to come out the Darfur Genocide….. because he can’t face reality.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa0597bf8d1590fccb89889adc6fd55a3539d9965936ae48b5c436a072a5f906.jpg

  • Bones

    The good thing that came out of the Holocaust was something that didn’t work.

    I’m kicking your arse,Tiny brain.

    As for strawman….

    an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.

    The argument of course being that all things happen for good eg the holocaust, genocide.

    Not a strawman dipstick. It actually IS the argument.

  • Bones

    Poor Rwanda…..Tiny brain thinks that you are a cliche because you don’t fit in with his idiotic view of the world.

    Gee there have been some despicable and idiotic humans who come on here blowing Trump and telling us how they hate gays.

    But you take the cake.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/26b576faf8aa7123c7ceb3f5ac400b1dbb8ed19659c9a11def542f9a7ce42c61.jpg

  • Bones

    You’re the one spitting on these people’s graves because it doesn’t fit in with your ridiculous view of the world.

    To claim the Rwandan genocide and the holocaust are cliches because they don’t fit in with your warped view of the world and cliche laden life is completely disgraceful and disgusting.

    Of course it’s about human pain and suffering, something that you know nothing about in your western selfish world.

    So you ignore and ridicule their suffering.

    What an arsehole.

  • Bones

    First: Which is patently false as we can see from history eg the extermination of the Lollards by the Catholic Church

    Second: Lol….a good thing that came out of 6 million dead was the VW…..like ffs only someone with an appalling worldview would believe that.

    Third: I’m applying your scripture (which you just did btw) to real life world events -not pie in the sky nonsense.

    The only strawman here is you….

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e55a3fce6cb8cba66ca96440815bb369cf1795f17ba304e7cc64e3a299a82080.png

  • Bones

    It’s not a false moral equivalency.

    Either good things came out of it or it didn’t.

    You’re the one pissing on them because you get to drive ina VW and you’re having your arse kicked.

    What a pathetic human being you are.

    My point is clear.

    Good things DON’T always happen out of tragedy.

    And if you can’t work that out, like you haven’t, then you are particularly stupid.

    Now the comment about your gay hating friends who visit here is how indoctrinated they are. A bt like you. So indoctrinated to their worldview of cliches and taking bible verses out of context theat they can’t see anything else.

    And wtf needs a pastor to tell them what to think?

    Obviously you.

  • Bones

    It’s hard to believe you do, tiny brain.

    I’ve never had anyone minimise suffering and tragedy as a cliche because it goes against their cliches.

  • Ron McPherson

    “…good thing that came out of 6 million dead was the VW…”

    You forgot the orange sodas and really cool motorcycles

  • A fish with no hands

    “until something kills you….” The love of my life is slowing fading dementia. I and she have receive a lot of support and love from people of faith and people of none, but it is clear that the “universe” or “god” simply doesn’t care. I don’t expect them to. It is but the brutal end of life. I am grateful, and I am better for having known her, but I have seen no evidence that the any supernatural being has ever helped.

  • A fish with no hands

    Job’s family and animals were simply the collateral damage from a bet. Glad it’s not true.

  • Ruthitchka

    I have heard that aphorism (is that the right word) all my life. I’ve come to believe that in my own life a lot of the good or bad things that happen are because of some decision or other of mine. I don’t blame the devil or credit God for things as much as I used to. However, when I am going through a bad time, like my current divorce, I ask God to “hold my hand” while I’m going through the bad time. I feel like He does exactly that.

    Later on, I often realize I have learned something from whatever bad situation I was in, even if what I learned was just plain old sympathy for other people.

  • janmaatjohn

    Nice piece. I do find statements like that to be a kind of victim blaming, or a way for the person making the comment to avoid actually feeling true empathy for/with the person that is suffering. If you feel overwhelmed, then it is because you don’t have as much faith in yourself as God does. Not my problem. You just have to get over it. Definitely not a validation.

  • Tiny J

    I haven’t minimized anyone’s suffering. There’s that false moral equivalency again.

    You however, have. You accuse me of not understanding pain and suffering. As though holding my best friend while he died somehow takes away from the fact that you have also lost people. Both things can be true.
    The existence of evil (like a holocaust for example) does not delegitimize good things. Good things continue to happen in the face of evil. Good things can happen as a direct result of evil. They don’t even need your approval first. Your insistence otherwise really makes me worried for you.

  • Tiny J

    Seriously, are you okay?
    You have someone to talk to, right? Like a real person and not on the internet? You really shouldn’t be alone.

  • Tiny J

    You keep saying “gay hating friends”. My friends don’t hate gays and most of them don’t read Patheos. Are you sure you’re not thinking of someone else?
    As for “pissing on people’s graves”, remember that I have not, did not, and will not post pictures of dead people just make a point. That was you. You’re the one making light of a genocide and turning into a punchline.
    Good things do always happen, BTW. You can’t stop them from happening anymore than the bad things. Good things happen at the same time as genocides/holocausts, they happen in spite of genocides/holocausts, and they happen because of genocides/holocausts. You told me to point that out to you. Now I’m “pathetic” for giving you exactly what you asked for? Does that make sense in your head?
    Are you okay, man? Have you considered getting professional help yet? There’s lots of nonreligious hotlines you can call to talk to people. I know it’s weird to ask for help, but sometimes there’s just no substitute for therapy.

  • Bones

    These “gay hating friends” are the ones who post on here on Patheos.

    You know the ones, you Like.

    As for the ‘pissing on graves competition’ You’ve got that all to yourself, tiny brain. You’ve appropriated other peoples’ tragedy into some benefit for yourself. Like the holocaust gave us VWs. That isn’t even true dipstick, the events are totally unrelated. Let alone the good things that came out of this…..

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c32d943e1ea0b0cebb41f9851fb8b445720465bb3c43c410c71d1cb65ecd8f39.jpg

    was a car (which had nothing to do with the holocaust btw) just shows what you think of humans..

    Who the f*** believes that? People who live in some delusion that the world revolves totally around them.

    It’s for idiots like you who make light of genocide and human suffering I produce those pictures.

    You really are one sick f***.

  • Bones

    Hey Tiny brain, do you have a point or are you just trolling?

    It’s good to know that I’ve upset you so much that you have really have nothing.

    There’s a genocide going on in Myanmar right now…maybe you’ll get a new car out of it….

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/038ab23db7e048a517674b4effd0798e9984249c359ac131cf31bc8804a40d35.jpg

    F**kwit.

  • Bones

    Lol….calling the holocaust a cliche = minimising their suffering.

    I can tell you now,no good things came out of the deaths of the people I loved.

    In fact it destroyed our family.

    But maybe that’s a cliche which your cliche doesn’t like.

    Because that’s how sick you are.

    But thanks for posting and showing others what sort of an idiot you are.

  • Bones

    Of course what Tiny brain doesn’t realise is none of those are dependent on the holocaust. What he’s really searching for is what we learned from SS scientists experimenting on Jewish and Soviet prisoners of war eg experiments in pressurisation as well as subjecting them to hypothermia.

  • Bones

    1. The Lollards were exterminated for having wrong beliefs……..ergo similar beliefs to protestants. I didn’t get around to interrogating them but the Catholics sure hated them. FAIL.
    2. Yeah there’s nothing appalling out of falsely associating VWs and the holocaust because you were searching in vain for something good to come out of it to try to prove your point. FAIL.
    3. Says scripture only applies to Christians then applies it to holocaust anyway. Then when this is pointed out says it is a lie. FAIL.

    You off your meds, mate?

    You really shouldn’t stop taking them.

    Next you’ll be hearing voices.

  • Bones

    Hands up all those who think the holocaust, genocide, suffering and tragedy are cliches?

    Put your hand down, Tiny brain. You’re on your own.

    Hands up all those who think that ‘ All things work for good….’ is a cliche?

    Yeah I got that. With most of humanity.

    Heck I didn’t even get to the “God doesn’t give us more than we can handle” cliche. You’d have loved that one. My talking about my dad’s suicide would be a cliche to you. You’d be beside yourself.

    Why do you lie to try to make people believe your delusion?

    There’s undoubtedly some pathological reason for it.

  • Ron McPherson

    Yeah, I was trying to understand how orange soda pop resulted from exterminating millions of Jews.

  • Bravo Sierra

    Sounds like a comment like that invites the problem-of-evil debate at the worst possible time in a person’s life.

  • Bones

    Evil is only a problem for those who see god as a cosmic chess player.

    That isn’t the only theology around eg the theory that god actually indwells all of its creation eg energy.

  • Chari McCauley

    Thank you. Could you please clarify your last sentence?

  • Pennybird

    When my high school teacher’s son died unexpectedly she told us she found a lot of comfort when his friends said to her “I don’t know what to say.” It was their engagement with her, rather than their avoidance that she found comforting. Avoidance is so much easier, so many of these friends, teens themselves, showed courage in their own grief.

  • swbarnes2

    6 days, and you prove that you are not honest enough to give a clear and straight answer.

    I said nothing about anyone preventing EVERY pain, just the horrific ones. But you are so fundamentally dishonest you literally can’t honestly read what I wrote. You just can’t. Twice you lied about what I wrote. Straight up lied, and your Christian conscious thinks nothing of it.

  • Herm

    Wait, wait, wait! Are you saying the horrific pains are easier to prevent than the not so horrific pains? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying that when I allowed, which I had the full control not to, my children to venture out into the treacherous world, out of my control but subject to theirs, that I was responsible that they contracted a fatal disease? Are you saying that my giving birth to opportunity for my children to live and savor that it is my responsibility that they died when I could have just as easily prevented that by not choosing to allow them any opportunity at all?

    I am not lying but I am finding it very difficult to meet you right at the sweet spot of where a pain is horrific and it is not. I am finding it even more difficult communicating to you that you and I will not be around, and will long be forgotten in a mere, oh let’s say for sure, 500 years on this earth. What was the point at which we can find in common that justifies you and I at all on this earth with no less than zero and no more than 120 years to get it right?

    Oh, I am not you, I do care and feel it when a kid skins her/his knee. I do grieve every loss of carnal life from my and mankind’s moment by moment relationship, even when I, as a responsible adult of mankind, knew that all carnal dies with too many before me, and even when I know their spirit (heart, soul, strength, mind) has the potential to live eternally.

    Do you know or sense spirit beyond carnal with real felt and lived empathy, compassion, tolerance and forgiveness for all life temporal and eternal?

    If you do you can understand that I am not lying founded upon the totality of life. If you don’t then all your accusations are founded upon your carnal senses alone and not your image of God within you.

    You cannot understand a God who does intervene with all warnings not to proceed down the destructive path that those in Their image (enough to be aware of Their counsel), as my children and grandchildren are in my image, are going down by their own freedom to choose within only the restrictions of this earth bound in the consistent laws of action reaction. You cannot understand a God who chooses to die first so that those enemies, in Their image, might live.

  • Tiny J

    I’ll try. I was trying to point out that your actual leaders should have been answering these questions (if I can figure it out, how hard can it be?).

  • Tiny J

    Fanta was invented because Coca Cola couldn’t get the right ingredients to make Coke in Germany.

  • Tiny J

    I have to block you. Every time I shut down your arguments I’m getting flagged as spam. Sorry.

  • Ron McPherson

    Which has nothing to do with “good” coming from the holocaust

  • jekylldoc

    “Truth” about values, and expressions of values, is simply a different category of evaluation from “truth” about laws of nature or factual occurrences. Suppose that “what we would prefer to believe about God,” is intimately bound up with who God is, because God’s existence includes a presence within our ideals. Then we begin to evaluate the preference, which is possible to do (are we just wanting that to be true to serve our emotions? or are we wanting it to be true because justice implies it?) rather than speculate about things which, let’s face it, we have no knowledge of.

  • Bones

    Lol……..You haven’t shut down anything Tiny brain.

  • midwest

    Have you asked God for forgiveness, and let Him come into your heart and life, and let Him know you want to be his Child? God always answers His children. It may not be the answer you want, but it is the Lord’s will. Just like a loving father on earth, God answers His children. He does know best.

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you know that?

  • Ivan Beggs

    An all knowing all loving God, creates people that he knows won’t love him and then sends them to eternal hell. That is love?

  • Ivan Beggs

    No reply to a question?

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you know it was God and not your work, medical support, an employer who could use you and luck?

  • Ivan Beggs

    Try suicide…

  • Ivan Beggs

    Special knowledge for the privilegeprivileged few. Meanwhile, the rest of us ponder why your God is so heartless .

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you know? How loving are childhood diseases that last a lifetime?

  • Ivan Beggs

    Why didn’t God create humans to only make healthy choices? Create a world without diseases and accidents? Instead, God created a world that he knew would have suffering and people condemned to eeternal hell. Why?

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you know God is taking care of you?

  • Ivan Beggs

    In heaven there is no sin, evil, pain nor suffering. So is there free will? If so, can you fall out of heaven and go to hell? If you can’t fall out of heaven, then why did God create temptation on earth?

  • Herm

    God didn’t create pets or marionettes for Their watching pleasure. God doesn’t condemn anyone to eternal hell.

  • Herm

    The dead know nothing, neither aware of or can influence anything. All with, in and of God are are bound together doing in everything to all others as they would have all others do to them. God is spirit. Mankind is physical. Heaven knows no carnal bounds.

  • Ivan Beggs

    I have multiple times to include commentaries. How do you know you are right? Why does a loving make the decision who goes to hell? Satan doesn’t do that. Why did God tempt Adam and Eve, knowing that they would be tempted and then He would condemn billions of people to pain, suffering, evil and most to everlasting hell? What kind of God is that? Would you tempt your children that way? Just writing, “Read the Bible. There” avoids the issue.

  • T. Tate

    Unsubscribe.

  • D.M.S.

    Read scripture.
    With God/Jesus in our hearts, we can overcome anything.

  • D.M.S.

    The best loving God/Jesus there is, that’s who our Lord is.

  • D.M.S.

    Why do you ‘ hate ‘ God/Jesus?

  • D.M.S.

    Get behind me, Satan!

  • Ivan Beggs

    I probably agree with you that the dead know nothing. They are just dead. But, I don’t have proof one way or another.

    How do you know, “All with, in and of God are are bound together doing in everything to all others as they would have all others do to them.” It could be true. But, how to prove it is true? What are the tests to run on a repeated fashion?

    Similarly, how do you know that God is spirit and what heaven is?

  • Ivan Beggs

    You and all others have free will. But, that unlimited free will is limited by genetics, education, society and time in history. So, why not make free will a matter of only healthy and happy choices? Having only happy healthy choices does not mean God created pets or marionettes. Why does pain and suffering come along with free will?

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you know that Scripture is literally true? Or, if not literally true, how do you know scripture is literally true? Either way, why does a loving God permit the suffering of innocent people? Since there is no suffering in heaven and there is free will in heaven, why not have only happy healthy choices on earth? Why have the billions of all humanity suffer for the sin of disobeying God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge?

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you know?

  • Ivan Beggs

    This is not cruel, since both of you are committed Christians. That means no matter what, you rejoice in whatever God allows to happen to you or tests you with. So, it is not cruel. In that sense, please answer the questions that have been posed.

  • D.M.S.

    1st answer. The HolySprit. 2nd. The HolySpirit. 3rd. There are NO innocent adults.

  • Ivan Beggs

    Noah: swbarnes2 was spot on.

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you know, “Eternal life is dependent, for myself and my children, on dying to
    carnal treasures and traditions by accepting love for all. To become a
    sibling of my Lord I have to love so strongly my enemies that I must
    carrying my cross to painfully die on that they may have time to see and
    accept the Spirit of truth.”? (BTW, where does the question mark go?)

  • Ivan Beggs

    God is taking a while. Meanwhile since the beginning of the human race, billions of innocent people have needlessly suffered from diseases, accidents, war, abuse, etc etc.

  • Ivan Beggs

    In heaven is there free will (aka “moral free agents”)? If so, then can they fall from heaven? If not, then why did God create “moral free agents” here on earth?

  • Ivan Beggs

    Bones is responding to your statements. You are tired of his seeking to understand; and, he is not dishonest, conflating and obfuscating. Nor his language offensive. Perhaps you feel offended. Put that aside and understand the issues he is raising.

  • Ivan Beggs

    Jesus went on the cross in the morning. By the afternoon he was off the cross. In comparison in the Roman times, thousands of people took days to weeks to die on those crosses. That was agony. In comparison, since Jesus was a God, his suffering was nothing. Nor was his suffering in comparison to billions of people in human history that suffered their entire lives.

    What ransom payment from 2,000 years is their in the here and now? 10,000 years in the future?

    How can you still believe when you say, “I look at the high rates of child abandonment during Roman times (which Jesus never specifically addressed) and yet I still believe He loves all children enough to say “Allow them to come to me…” ?” Children with lifelong diseases, stunted growth from famine, war, pestilence?

  • Ivan Beggs

    “This vitriol is horrific; what have I said to deserve such disgust?” Bones has some honest questions. They may not feel like it to you; yet, they are valid. At times, the statements might be over the top to you; I haven’t read the entire thread on that point. On the other hand, as a Christian, put aside the vulgarity and please try to understand his other comments and point of view.

    Particularly, understand and rationally answer a very basic question, “How does an all loving, all knowing God, allow pain and suffering for billions of people now with joy and salvation coming (immediately after death?)?”

  • Ivan Beggs

    How do you reconcile a loving all knowing God that permits billions of innocents to suffer since the beginning of humanity? Free will or free moral agency? Is there free will or free moral agency in heaven? If so, can you fall out of heaven? If not, why did God create the earth like heaven and keep The Tree of Knowledge out of the earth? Why did God punish billions of people for the sin of two? Where is the love? Do you understand my question? BTW, I am not Satan. I’d have a lot more power if I was…. (an attempt at some humor.)

  • Ivan Beggs

    DMS. For me, this is a serious question; and, I hope you take it that way. How does the Holy Spirit communicate with you? How do you know it is the Holy Spirit?

  • Bones

    Lol good luck having a serious conversation with dms.

    Hes been blocked by most on here for good reason.

  • Bones

    He doesnt …but it makes him feel better.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve blocked, I think, only two people over the years, and DMS is one of them.

  • D.M.S.

    My life has changed, from a horrible sinner. To a person who realizes what sin does to people and forgive them of their actions towards me and the world.
    I’ve forgiven Ron McPherson, Bones and Herm for their atrocities toward true Christians.
    And that’s because of the HolySpirit that indwells inside of me.

  • D.M.S.

    Serious answer. Satan doesn’t condemn us inside our hearts for sinning. Because he can’t. Only the HolySpirit can do that.

  • D.M.S.

    You’re one of satans many minions. I’ve met a lot of your kind over the years.
    Please inform your buddy Ron McPherson ( a thank you ) from me for blocking me.

  • Herm

    Ivan, you wrote, “How do you know, “All with, in and of God are are bound together doing in everything to all others as they would have all others do to them.”

    I have to begin with a couple questions to begin to answer you. How do you know what binds you together as one individual coordinated body of physical, social, and spiritual awareness with influence? Do you believe that any others, outside your body, know what binds you as well as you do yourself? The same questions would be asked of your immediate family body to frame how I know, at least as well, as you know the answers to the questions I just posed to you.

    Yes, similarly, I know God (by any name), toward whom we are focusing together today, is spirit because my developing body of spirit (comprised of heart, soul, strength, mind) is blooming out of the ignorance of infancy toward responsible awareness and influence, as I can bear. I am more quickly, daily, learning to coordinate and be more responsible to, from and within God as a family; I as Their child. How far back can you remember to the (know nothing – can do nothing) beginning you had to grow from; first from within your family’s sole responsibility to your survival founded on their choice to give you the opportunity of life, to today, where all responsibility for your personal survival, and your action/inaction of choice, is yours alone? When you spoke as a child, our civil laws gave most responsibility of consequence, derived from your choice to influence yourself and others, to your legal adult guardians. Now that you speak as an adult, all responsibility to your actions (including all under the age of consent children you speak for in your name), and inaction, are solely yours, and spouse as one, because you know as well, hopefully better, than anyone else what binds you together and how most to interact you with others.

    I proved, to the highest level that my maturity, responsibility and environment allows, spirit God is more real, interactively in support of me and us (us, as in a single body of family bound as one by all love), than any temporal carnal relationship I once depended on to enable me to become independently aware, and influential enough, to test Man and God for myself, repeatedly.

    Heaven is mostly, today, a concept that most of mankind tries in vain to define, within the dimensions of the physical, to justify their struggles to survive, even their being, on earth. All aware life hopes of better for their future or it gives up. The hope found in mankind’s picture of heaven is that their inescapable awareness and influence of today in pain on earth, concludes in no more struggle as the final prize forever more. In my youth, many religious tribes painted the picture heaven, to me, of praising God in song, mostly on our knees, forever more. Many embraced a finality of sitting on clouds while strumming our harps without end. This reflected all the time each of my teachers of religion applied to defining heaven as a place to be, better than where they were. Today, those concepts would be hell for me.

    Do you, Ivan, find discovery worthy of your time? So does God, all of God. Strength of heart, soul, and mind requires struggle or else it atrophies. Only through effort, sustained through hope of discovery found within sentient beings who choose life, do we grow. Life that is not growing is diminishing. Life never stands still.

    Kinetic awareness and influence (life) in spirit, which you clearly sense, or you would not be asking these questions, is bound by no dimensions, such as beginning and end relative to time, as is all that is carnal. The physical awareness, from within we each have grown to be able to share together today, is an infinitely small baby step that we all, of mankind, have the opportunity to accept in a journey without end, filled with never ending adventures of discovery, always fresh, always new, inside and outside ourselves. In spirit the microcosm and the macrocosm are infinite, available for all of us (in spirit awareness and influence; the image of God) to expand our microscopic and telescopic vision of focus to discover, reach, share and utilize the unknown just out of sight. That is heaven, without limits.

    Those of us who simply cannot choose to do, in everything, to others as they would have others do to them will, out of love for the whole body of life sharing the joy of discovery for a more perfect union, cease to be aware and influential.

  • D.M.S.

    Very loving when we have God/Jesus/HolySpirit in our lives, heart and mind.

  • Herm

    Ivan, all of mankind is limited by earth’s gravity and atmosphere in the application of their free will. It is our protective playpen that keeps us from imposing our dangerously immature will and judgment on others outside of our allowed influence. Think of the barriers that your adult guardians had to employ to keep you from ignorantly exercising your freedom of will as a child, that you and all others might better survive. It served us all that you, and I, were not given the keys to the car until our maturity, derived from the struggles of education and experience, could bear to present a more sound judgment in the exercise of our will. We are given the opportunity to mature beyond our temporal carnal being that requires we show ability before our influence is allowed beyond our present limitations. If only happy choices are our only options to learn within then we will never reach adulthood with full responsibility to our unlimited free will. If we did, without the maturity of judgment necessary, a healthy life for all would be in peril because of our ignorance of that which is evil (destructively unhealthy and unhappy). If our environment is manufactured to present only healthy and happy choices then we are not being groomed and supported to be adults responsible to unlimited free will. A “good” mankind, by definition, attempts to provide a healthy and happy environment for all their sentient pets with no intention of ever letting those pets become influentially responsible adults for the future of mankind. Life is an opportunity to contribute good (constructively) or evil (destructively) within the limitations we have earned decided by the adults with the mature experience, wisdom and judgment to know.

  • Herm

    The question mark goes outside the quotation marks, as you did. The period, within the question marks, is an option.

    Eternal life, having no option of cessation (death) for irreparable individual influences with destructively limited empathy and concern, not bound by love for all life, would be a living hell for some immediately, and eventually for all.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Could be. I am a non-believer but I have no desire to start poking holes in a theist’s beliefs when they are going through problems…just be there for them.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    @midwest You have made many assertions…but I am not seeing any basis for evidence.

    @A Fish – I am sorry for your love’s dementia. While I have no platitudes about the afterlife or gods to offer (as I am a non-believer) I do express kindness and love to you and hope that the process will unfold with as little pain as could be possible.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    It can be tough to know what to do. My mom died after a stroke at 84..I miss her and grieved but I have no reason to think she as a person exists any longer. Rather than fussing over a possible afterlife, I choose to honor her memory and the meaning she brought to people in her life.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    It seems more and more plausible that our traditional view of free will is not backed by the facts,.

    “God does not condemn people to Hell.”

    So….if I understand the Christian paradigm…God created all things so he must have created hell. He could have chosen not to create hell but rather perhaps a purgatory place where heathens like me could chill out for a bit..perhaps have a chance to say..OK…I’m on your team, God. Not stopping one of your supposedly beloved creations from living in eternal torment forever does not seem like a loving thing to do.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Hey, wheelchair makers need jobs… :)

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Killing to send a message…terrorism?

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Sounds like good ole human effort and a willingness to try…not seeing a god at work there.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Maybe you are the Super Chuck Norris! In any event..may you be well.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Can you demonstrate precisely how the verse were taken out of context (and what your opinion is of the actual context)?

  • TheMountainHumanist

    “worked out well for Job” Really…OK..it says he got another wife and more kids…but how painful for him to know his God killed his first family to make a point.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    But umm Jesus had not yet been crucified during the time of the Job story sooooooo..????

  • TheMountainHumanist

    I hate Jesus about as much as you hate Darth Vader

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Yeah Ivan..those shooting victims in Vegas were guilty of loving country music!

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Or just be humanists :)

  • TheMountainHumanist

    and yet it’s 2018 and some people still mistake treatable mental illness for fantasies about demons.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    But it worked out OK for him in the end.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    I believe the Euphythro Dilemma (sp??) discusses that.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Your analogy breaks down because you are trying to equivocate limited human parents with a god entity that is supposed to be all knowing/powerful.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    How do you know?

  • TheMountainHumanist

    I would like to be able to say “My Bartender Does not Give Me More than I Can handle” …but that would be a lie :)

  • Herm

    Your analogy breaks down when you assume God is all knowing and all powerful. What do you think God, as a family, is going to be doing for the rest of eternity? Wouldn’t an all powerful God be one with the influence to insist, unequivocally, that those subject to Their will do exactly as they will? Human parents have a period with those they created in their image where they, too, can take advantage of the fragility of their spawn and demand that their will be followed or die. Good (constructive) parents for the species mankind do not enforce their all powerful and all knowing advantage (relatively speaking) to enforce their will, as do some very destructive and considered despicable parents inflict their will without empathy, compassion, tolerance and forgiveness. Good parents raise up those in their image to become good parents, raising up those in their image to become good parents, … . Not one within any lineage is ever identically alike and all have something different, hopefully constructive, to share with the whole.

  • Herm

    Ultimately your responsibility for only you know what you can bear. It’s the price we pay for freedom to choose.

  • Herm

    I am a child of God. I know my Father’s will, but more importantly, I know my Family’s love.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    How do you know you are a child of god and know your father god’s will?

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Herm…twas a joke – lol. Even though I am a non believer..I follow the author of Timothy’s admonition to “take a little wine” for my stomach. A moderate drinker am I

  • TheMountainHumanist

    So….in your view…a person who experiences a horrible loss of family like that should not grieve nor be in anguish and pain because….afterlife?

    I have no evidence or warrant to think this afterlife exists. You may…

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Umm I did not make an analogy. I only assume god is all powerful and all knowing because that is the general definition among most god believers.

    What do you think God, as a family, is going to be doing for the rest of eternity?

    Given I am a non believer…that is like asking: “What do I think Shiva does on his off days?”

    I find this view that my children are possessively “my own image” rather disturbing. They are humans in their own right.

  • Herm

    How do you know you are a child of your parents? Did you have any inkling of your father’s will? … and why did you add the word “god’s” after the word “father“?

  • D.M.S.

    What’s that got to do with the price of beans in Detroit?

  • Herm
  • Bones

    Lol

  • Tiny J

    You just answered your own question. You do not understand the Christian paradigm.

    Hell is separation from God. Which is not something that God created. Jesus died to completely free anyone from that. Hell is a stop gap measure which will be eventually done away with. You use the terms “Hell” and “purgatory” which are interchangeable in opposing ways, thus reinforcing my point that you do not understand what you are talking about.

    “Not stopping one of your supposedly beloved creations from living in eternal torment forever does not seem like a loving thing to do” is evidence of your failure to understand what free will is (which you also admitted already).
    TL;DR
    No, dude. Just no.

  • Tiny J

    You answered your own question. You do not understand the Christian paradigm.

    Hell is separation from God. God did not create that. Jesus died to free us from that. You also use the terms “Hell” and “Purgatory” in opposing ways despite them being the same thing, thus reinforcing the fact that you don’t understand what you’re talking about. Hell is a stop gap measure that will be done away with. Only God and His Kingdom are eternal.

    Saying “Not stopping one of your supposedly beloved creations from living in eternal torment forever does not seem like a loving thing to do” is the second admission that you don’t understand what free will is, right behind you qualifying it with the phrase “our traditional view” which is basically lying. I don’t know who “our” refers to. I don’t know what you mean when you say “traditional”. You are blatantly trying to pull an argument that is beyond you down to your own comfort zone.
    TL;DR
    No dude. Just no. Tell me about the first time you were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Then you can have this conversation.

  • D.M.S.

    Are they the same to you?

  • Phil Teichroew

    Not to argue here, but actually we & our sins condemn our own selves. The Holy Spirit convicts us.
    Far too many people carry around huge amounts of guilt because they are condemning themselves. It has a tremendous effect on their mentality, health & well being. Adam & Eve knew immediately when they had sinned after partaking of the Tree of The Knowledge of Good & Evil. Think of that? The knowledge of good & evil! God never intended for them or us to ever go there, but immediately they were made aware & convicted & condemned themselves.
    But God stepped in, as He always does, because He was not ready to let go of His intended (perfect) Creation by providing a way of salvation & redemption (for our violation) through His own living Sacrifice, immense love, grace & mercy! That’s why I love John 3:17 as much as the verse before it…

  • D.M.S.

    I know what you’re saying but we would not realize our sins without the HolySpirit indwelling inside of us.

  • Phil Teichroew

    Yes, The Holy Spirit is the convicter.
    He’s also a protector. Because otherwise this World would be far more wicked than it already is & we would’ve already destroyed ourselves by now.

  • D.M.S.

    Without God/Jesus.
    You would be correct.
    Peace.

  • D.M.S.

    A very loving God…..of course.

  • D.M.S.

    Mine too…. God gave me an atheist for a dad.
    Halelujah, now I’m a Christian!

  • D.M.S.

    God/Jesus still loves you……

  • Bones

    Lol…….childhood diseases are loving…..

  • Bones

    Lol God created the tree in the garden, then told Adam and Eve not to eat from it. ANd then kicked them out of the garden to lives of misery because they ate from the tree God created.

    You suck at reading the Bible.

  • Bones

    Obviously a different one to yours then.

  • Bones

    Hell doesn’t exist…..It’s a Christian (read Church) translation of the term gehenna.

    And if we are created with an inclination to sin (apparently every single person) then say goodbye to your free will argument.

  • Bones

    Lol you shouldn’t be reading it either.

    This is what happens when you let people with no critical thinking or comprehension skills (eg inferrencing, understanding historical and social context) read ancient texts.

  • $144948586

    Ivan, with all due respect, as you have admitted later: “At times, the statements might be over the top to you; I haven’t read the entire thread on that point.”, I go back and forth with Bones all the time. It always comes down to him calling me a homophobe (I’m not; I’m also for gay marriage–if the State is going to be the one to determine what marriage is), calling me anti-civil rights (again, I’m for gay marraige in the sight of government), calling me racist (because I think anti-discrimination laws are a violation of civil rights), calling me a Trump support (I’m an anarchist and libertarian), referencing me to the Republican party and Trumpism (in which Trump was a lifelong Democrat and populist).

    So when I say I’m offended, YOU ARE DAMN STRAIGHT. But he’s not asking honest questions, he is being dishonest, conflating and obfuscating looking to smear me so that these neo-fascists visiting this site–and the OP–(yes, that’s what they are: authoritarians in the name of anti-authoritarian, you know “Peace through force” kind of folks”) won’t believe my comments when I respond….he can call me a bigot homophobe white man and persons like Otro will like the comment when the topic might be on something as simple as, oh I dunno, the fact that OP thinks of religious persecution only cutting one way, as in the most recent discussions.

    That being said, glad to have you write..I’ll try to respond adequately.

  • $144948586

    Well, God never said he “finished” creation until he was on the Cross. And Revelation ends with him saying, “Behold, I AM MAKING all things new.”

    I think these are two incredible statements, and I think it tells us: God has been making humans (that is making them in to free agent beings) since the beginning of time and continues that work to this day, but that the Atonement was where it was finished, where the eternal “met” the temporary.

    You are correct, however, that billions of innocent people have dealt with suffering. I don’t dispute this.

  • $144948586

    “In heaven is there free will (aka “moral free agents”)?”
    Absolutely.

    “If so, then can they fall from heaven?”
    Can they? I’d say yes, they can leave the New Jerusalem and go to the lake of fire if they so choose.
    Will they? I don’t think so.

    “If not, then why did God create “moral free agents” here on earth?”
    The obvious answer is, I think, the same reason we create our own moral free agents in this existence: love.
    BUT, one thing is also taught about this creation: we’re not moral free agents. We’re slaves to sin.

  • D.M.S.

    Yes….

  • $144948586

    “Nor was his suffering in comparison to billions of people in human history that suffered their entire lives.”
    I don’t doubt that. William Wallace was disemboweled.

    “What ransom payment from 2,000 years is their in the here and now? 10,000 years in the future?”
    That, I think is a pivotal question in recognizing the atonement. I think it’s one motif of several applicable ones.
    My opine on Ransom: It’s not because the Devil owned humanity, it’s that humanity was slave to sin–that sin is ultimately carried out in violence and the death of innocence. The recognition of this I think is an accept of this beautiful gift from God as an appeasement of the wrath that ensnares humanity–it purchased our freedom on Calvary–we are awakened to the violent nature of our sinful humanity.

    The last question is a great one! There is no easy way to say it without sounding as if I’m compartmentalizing. BUT, I believe it, because first: the Bible is the only religious text I know that pretty much entertains Socratic thought: Pilate asks, “What is Truth?” That the story of creation (the first one of six days), crazily enough, appears to be REGAINING scientific backing with relativity and time dilation, and the second creation story (that of the 6th day and man) really seems to be an allegory of our individual fall to enslavement. From there, the gospels begin with the proclamation that our enslaver is going to be taken away and conclude with Jesus crying out “It is finished” after referencing Psalm 22, the declaration/prophecy of God’s sacrifice. AND THEN the bible concludes with what I am coming to believe is actually a description of our renewing/and perhaps what we will witness upon death. (John, the Revelator, fell to the ground as though dead before it began). I mean, it’s wild man!

    But I don’t believe because of a bunch of stuff that, if you just now knew me, sounds like I’m some numerology nutjob. I believe, because I do think it is the most insightful story of “beginnings”. I do believe humanity needs redemption–it’s a horrid world out there full of compromise. And I believe the Christian story, because I find Jesus to be the only religious figure to be sensible to those beliefs we can derive as libertarians and atheists…he never forced his will upon anyone, but was led “like lamb to slaughter”.

    So what about those poor children?

    First
    Well, I also believe in God’s state that “I’m making all things new.”
    This is one reason I don’t believe in hell, at least not in the Greek sense we generally think of, and certainly not in the eternal. I believe all will be saved, eventually..but it is going to happen THROUGH Jesus and it is going to happen at an understanding of His atoning work….and that this glorious salvation will be our “Pearl of Greatest Price” that we will give everything for….and that’s why we’d choose Heaven over Hell for eternity…because we finally recognize the violent nature we’re saved from.

    Second.
    So what about those poor children?
    I believe in a God who’s restoring all of creation. I believe He’s in that process right now.
    Now, children stunted in growth or missing limbs due to terrible chemical poisonings, one thing we’re told: we’ll get a new body. Now I don’t know if that means 10 fingers and 10 toes, but it will be a glorified body–we’re promised this much.

    For all those suffering, I believe God is vastly bigger and more powerful AND MORE PERSONABLE than I ever imagined as a kid–and I had a great imagination. So for all those who suffer, I believe that God will fill those places only God can. Their sufferings will be their story, but I think we’ll come out calling God glorious with praise and thanksgiving, not because he demands it, but because it was his good will to do so because He so loved the world!

    That’s my quick take on it.

  • Bones

    Hopefully your children get some then.

  • D.M.S.

    You will never understand what I’m talking about. But then you believe in mankinds nonsense and that explains a lot.

  • D.M.S.

    Hopefully your children don’t…..

  • Bones

    Thats right because I love them.

    May you you enjoy plenty of loving diseases.

  • Bones

    Lol i understand completely that you’re a complete and utter arse.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    “You do not understand the Christian paradigm.”

    Actually, I do..you simply do not agree with it.

    “God did not create that.” The Bible says God created all things.

    “No dude. Just no. Tell me about the first time you were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Then you can have this conversation.”

    Yes, dude. Just yes. I converted to Christianity in 1984. I can have any conversation I damn well please…dude. Cheers!

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Given that (it seems) 99% of observable Christians fear death —

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Good point…I should have said “God” instead of Jesus. I suspect Jesus was at least a legend based on some accounts of a Jewish ascetic.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    First of all..don;t go to Detroit to buy beans..I hear the city is awful.

    Second….your point was that the OT books were about Jesus…clearly they were not.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    To repeat my question (with the expectation of a declarative response and not rhetoric):

    “How do you know you are a child of god and know your father god’s will?”

  • D.M.S.

    Psalm 22.

  • Herm

    Apparently, you want me to convince you that I am a child of God and know my Father’s will. It is not enough, for you, for me to “declare“, as I have, that I am and that I know. If what you define as “rhetoric” was not persuasive then, by definition, it was not “rhetoric“. I know certainly that I am a child of God because I live every moment now with and in the family of God. My Father is in me as I am in Him. I can no more convince you, if you do not want to go directly to my Father and ask Him, that my spirit familial relationship exists, bound in love, than I could that my carnal familial relationship existed, bound in love, without you visiting the family. I suspect that you don’t really care about my family relationships. I suspect that you feel threatened, for some reason beyond my childish ability to empathize with you, by my Father and Brother. Go directly to Them and dare Them to show you the truth. If They do not answer then you can leave relieved that They don’t exist or that They just don’t care enough to answer.

    I am always intrigued by people entering this cyber space to insist that others within prove their relationships as true, carnal and in the Spirit of truth. Most, like you seem to be, sense spirit, as no other member of any other species on earth seems to be able to, but can’t quite define spirit in carnal terms to their satisfaction. Well, in the case of God’s (by any name) family, which is spirit, relationships a child only knows, not by scientific definition, because they live daily interacting with the adults and their siblings. Each child has no doubt that their nurturing family exists because that relationship faithfully meets their every need to survive to become adults when, then, they might be versed in the sciences enough to prove to others, in no uncertain terms, their declaration all along that they know they are a child of that family and that they know the influential will of their father, carnal and/or spirit.

    Now, only to frame your mind and heart to understand what I am sharing with you, please, answer:

    How do you know you are a child of your parents? Did you have any inkling of your father’s will? … and why did you add the word “god’s” after the word “father”?

    If you have a family relationship, especially as a forming child, no one outside your family can deny that you do. It cannot be proven to anyone who has never met your family that they even exist or that you are aware of your father’s will. That in no way means they are fictitious. If the questioning outsider never had a family, or a father, like your family, and your father, then it will be impossible to convey the truth of yours to him/her because there is nothing in common to build from. I truly hope that you had nurturing parents and that you grew to know your father’s will, and mostly importantly your father’s love. That’s the most in common we have to share with each other to describe how I know I am a child of God and know my Father’s will.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Not interested what you presume or imagine about me (i.e. you ad hommineum fallacies.).

    Your answer seems to boil down to — I know because I believe I know. Fine. As long as you admit it’s all faith…cool.

    How do you know you are a child of your parents?

    DNA

    Did you have any inkling of your father’s will?

    My dad’s dead but yeah….I was able to directly speak to him without any hocus pocus.

    why did you add the word “god’s” after the word “father”?”

    Clarity’s sake.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    What about it? Never mentions Jesus.

  • Herm

    The faith I have in God is that I will not ever be left orphaned, not that my divine family in the Spirit doesn’t exist.

    You really aren’t comprehending what I am sharing with you, in all sincerity, and in all honesty, that is solely up to you whether to accept as possible or not.

    Did you get your DNA checked to know that you are a child of your parents, when you were a child and couldn’t even spell DNA?

    I speak directly with and in my eternal Father right now, without pause, without end, much more directly than any child of any carnal parents ever could or will ever be physically able to.

    God is a family. If your surname was Humanist does it make any sense to refer to your father as Humanist’s father? The’s and/or Mountain’s father would be more apropos and grammatically correct, don’t you think?

  • TheMountainHumanist

    “The faith I have in God is that I will not ever be left orphaned, not that my divine family in the Spirit doesn’t exist.”

    No worries….you have some claims…they may be true..you could be wrong.

    “Did you get your DNA checked to know that you are a child of your parents, when you were a child and couldn’t even spell DNA?”

    No but I could if I wanted to….a method to check the claim against reality exists…not so with any god claims.

  • Herm

    What an over inflated ego you exude. Check for me, if you would, please, what in reality exists outside the cosmos and inside the quark. Maybe, you could even share with me the method that exists for you to do so.

    As a child, the reality of truth is in the tested interactive results of relationship, not ever in the method of reverse engineering that is allowed educated adults. As a child, humility found in realizing the expanse of what I have yet to learn, as versus what I am certain of today, was essential to my continued faith that my parents would not leave me orphaned. What I am certain of today is that if you in all humility, with sincerity, asked God to prove to you that They are real, They will do so. Don’t ask the children who can only testify according to the relationship they can presently bear supporting them through their immaturity. Ask the adult guardians who can meet you exactly where you are, through Their education, empathy and experience that Their children have yet to be able to define in “so many words”.

    And, no, you couldn’t, as an infant child, know to get your DNA checked, but you could know, for certain, the relationship of those adults from whom you depended upon to protect you, nurture you, teach you and love (a word you could not prove the reality of as an infant child) you faithfully until you could stand on your own.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    If you see an inflated ego…you must be projecting. Please demonstrate how I have projected?

    “Check for me, if you would, please, what in reality exists outside the cosmos and inside the quark. Maybe, you could even share with me the method that exists for you to do so.”

    If by cosmos you mean the universe then..so far as we know..stating that there is an “outside” the universe is nonsensical. As far as quarks….we continue to study subatomic particles. The method we use to discover new facts about reality is known as the scientific method.

    “And, no, you couldn’t, as an infant child, know to get your DNA checked”

    Ahh…a strawman….you never said in your initial question anything about infancy.

  • D.M.S.

    The entire psalm is about our Lord Christ Jesus.
    Yea of very little ( NO ) faith.
    As usual we can lead a person to our Lord, but we can’t force them to drink.
    Peace.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Can you demonstrate precisely how the Psalm is about jesus when he is never mentioned?

    You are correct that I have no faith. No need.

    “As usual we can lead a person to our Lord, but we can’t force them to drink.”

    I recall saying the same thing when I was a devout Baptist minister :)

    And may Peace be unto you….

  • D.M.S.

    It still amazes me how Satan can latch onto a believer and get someone to walk away from the almighty truth of our Lord God/Jesus.
    And then have an atheist like me in satans grasp. And our Lord God/Jesus brought me to Him.
    Hopefully you’ll come back to our Lord God/Jesus/HolySpirit, someday very soon.
    Peace.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    So back to my question please….

  • D.M.S.

    Not today….later.

  • Herm

    “And, no, you couldn’t, as an infant child, know to get your DNA checked”

    Ahh…a strawman….you never said in your initial question anything about infancy.

    Relative to God, with no beginning and no end, just how mature a child could anyone on this earth be? Even in your smug certainty, suggesting that you alone can possibly solve the mystery of where the Dad you know intimately goes to work everyday, should be able to comprehend from having never left the confines of your crib that you have insufficient data to even begin to hypothesize on the fabric of eternity, infinity and spirit. Yet, as the seeker of truth that you are, you have the audacity of judgment to tell me, “No worries….you have some claims…they may be true..you could be wrong.” Infants don’t find truth in “scientific method“. Infants only know the truth by way of shared relationship, with protectors, providers and teachers who share as each child can bear.

    No but I could if I wanted to….a method to check the claim against reality exists…not so with any god claims.

    Relationship! You, by your own admission, make it very clear that you do not, yet, have a method to determine what’s beyond the universe, except to pass it off as “nonsensical“. What, from the confines of earth do you base such a judgment upon, except, possibly, an inflated ego of less than, for sure, 120 years of age in a cosmos that began only 13.8 billion years ago?

  • D.M.S.

    I guess that’s why only 1% will make it into the kingdom of heaven. They took the arrow road…

  • D.M.S.

    Yes God will condemn people to eternal hell. That is the one fear that we can all be sure will happen.
    If we don’t accept Christ Jesus as our only Lord and Savior.

  • Tiny J

    I get that you’re trolling me, but I can’t tell how you think you’re doing.
    “Christian paradigm” is an oxymoron. I didn’t point that out earlier because I didn’t want to insult you since you were already so wrong in so many tangible ways that I had to correct. Also typing.
    You say “God created all things” while ignoring that I said “God didn’t create that” referring to something that Adam and Eve did, not God. But keep grinding that axe if you want. Like a great man once said “I like the box. I feel safe in there.”
    And you completely failed to tell me about when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit while simultaneously saying that “you can have any conversation you damn well please” in regards to a hypothetical qualification for a conversation you’re not even having.
    You make many words to say absolutely nothing and I’m not even sure if that’s on purpose or not.
    .
    “The greatest trick Satan ever pulled was not convincing people he doesn’t exist. It was convincing people to blame God for his actions.”

  • Bones

    The evidence against the Holy Spirit being a protector is measured in blood.

    It’s overwhelming.

    But you can believe such things behind the sanctuary of a modern western country.

  • Phil Teichroew

    Who would believe a FOOL who thinks he’s an ‘atheist’?

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Can you please demonstrate any evidence of trolling? How is trying to have a conversation trolling?

    ” you were already so wrong in so many tangible ways”

    Please demonstrate where I am factually wrong (note that’s not the same as not sharing your opinion). :)

  • TheMountainHumanist

    We shall see…I have no reason to think heaven is real…

  • TheMountainHumanist

    “you do not, yet, have a method to determine what’s beyond the universe”

    I said the opposite. We have the scientific method. My point being..asking “what’s beyond the universe” is nonsensical IF it turns out that the universe (as it seems to be) is the sum total (by definition) of all that exists. It’s like you saying: “How many married bachelors exist…?”

  • TheMountainHumanist

    No worries! :)

  • D.M.S.

    That’s what atheist believe.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    And some other theists as well…. who knows..maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised.

    “Blessed are the skeptical…for they assume nothing.”

  • Herm

    You are mentally, socially and spiritually sick. God is not. I am so happy I wasn’t your child. I don’t want any relationship under the rule of a temporal carnal parent or an eternal god like you portray, as that would be a living hell, without end, even under the best of times.

  • D.M.S.

    For all I know you’re a 100% liar. That you have never been a baptist minister. But you have always been an atheist.
    How could I possibly know for sure that you were a baptist minister?
    And you’re only on these sites to pull people’s chains to get a laugh.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    And you may also be a liar. What would either of our motives be to lie?

    “But you have always been an atheist.” Factually incorrect. I was a theist until age 34

    “How could I possibly know for sure that you were a baptist minister?” You cannot. I mean you could ask me stuff that only a devout Baptist (or minister would know). I was ordained in 1996; attended Southern Seminary in Louisville for two years. Served part time at three different churches. We can discuss Armianism or eschatology if you wish or who my favorite professors were at Southern. We can discuss the Moderates vs. Conservatives issues in the late 70s spurred on by officials at Southwestern Seminary.

    Why would I lie?

  • Herm

    … from your crib, with all the scientific methods available to you, the sum total of all that exists is not the fullness of reality. Ask any honest scientist, physicist and mathematician, today, if there is any possibility that there is something beyond the big bang. Infinity and eternity are more real than temporal. Just because you cannot bear that concept does not make it nonsensical. It is egotistical for any infant child to insist what is beyond their knowledge can’t possibly exist. You, for one for sure, do not, yet, have a method to determine what’s beyond the universe as a macrocosm and what is beyond a quark as a microcosm.

  • D.M.S.

    You’re one who is a very sick and mentally ill.
    Christ Jesus spoke of an eternal hell, many times in scripture.
    But you choose to ignore that fact and tell everyone that they’re going to heaven no matter how they live.
    I will keep praying for your salvation.
    Peace.

  • D.M.S.

    The motives on these many pages astound me all the time.
    I’m a Christian. I’m quite happy being a Christian.
    But the world loves to tear people away from their love of Christ Jesus in their life.
    Why, I haven’t the faintest idea.

  • Herm

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Matthew 5:43-48

    D.M.S., you are doing no one any favors here. You are not portraying my heavenly Father as perfect, only vindictive, zealous, wrathful and unforgiving of those, like you, who do not know what they are doing. What possible point would there be for an almighty, all knowing God to condemn ignorant little beings on earth to eternal torture?

    This is what you, as of this carnal world, are blind to:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    This is what you are missing to be able to be certainly led into all truth as you can bear:

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    You follow “Christian” Pharisees and high priests as your only guides. You cheer from the ranks of their disciples to crucify the children of God because neither you, nor they, recognize the Spirit of God in their midst.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    No worries…you’re a Christian. I’m a humanist….we disagree on many things but we probably agree on others.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Waiter, I didn’t order this word soup for lunch! :)

  • D.M.S.

    As usual blah,blah,blah.
    I follow scripture only.
    You don’t follow scripture, all you do is lie about our
    Holy GOD.
    I’ll be a learning Christian for the rest of my life.
    I’ll keep praying for your salvation.

  • D.M.S.

    Luke 16:22-26.
    Mathew 18:9.
    This passage may be speaking of you, Mathew 23:31-36 brood of vipers.
    Luke 12:4-5. Fear the Lord.

  • I trust Bones more than I’d trust a Christian, so…

  • Wrong.

    God and Spousal Abuse:

    It’s common for Christians to compare the relationship between humanity and God to that between husband and wife. God is the ‘man’ of the house to whom humanity owes obedience, respect, and honor. Usually this relationship is portrayed as one of love, but in far too many ways, God is more like an abusive spouse who only knows how to love through intimidation and violence. A review of classic signs and symptoms of spousal abuse reveals how abusive the ‘relationship’ people have with God is.

    Victims are Afraid of the Abuser:

    Abusers instill fear in their spouses; believers are instructed to fear God. Abusers are unpredictable and given to dramatic mood swings; God is depicted as alternating between love and violence. Abused spouses avoid topics which set off the abuser; believers avoid thinking about certain things to avoid angering God. Abusers make one feel like there is no way to escape a relationship; believers are told that there is no way to escape God’s wrath and eventual punishment.

    Abusers Use of Threats and Intimidation to Force Compliance:

    Violence is a primary means by which abusers communicate, even with their spouses whom they are supposed to love.

    Abusers aren’t just violent towards their spouses — they also use violence against objects, pets, and other things to instill more fear and to force compliance with their wishes. God is portrayed as using violence to force people to comply with certain rules and Hell is the ultimate threat of violence. God might even punish an entire nation for the transgressions of a few members.

    Abusers Withholds Resources from Victims:

    In order to exercise greater control over a victim, abusers will withhold important resources in order to make the victim more dependent. Resources used like this include money, credit cards, access to transportation, medications, or even food. God is also depicted as exercising control over people by controlling their resources — if people are insufficiently obedient, for example, God may cause crops to fail or water to turn bad. The basic necessities of living are conditioned on obeying God.

    Abusers Instill Feelings of Inadequacy in Victims:

    A further means of exercising control over a victim is instilling feelings of inadequacy in them.

    By getting them to feel worthless, helpless, and unable to do anything right, they will lack the self-confidence necessary to stand up to the abuser and resist the abuse. Believers are taught that they are depraved sinners, unable to do anything right and unable to have good, decent, or moral lives independent of God. Everything good that a believer achieves is due to God, not their own efforts.

    Victims Feel they Deserve to be Punished by Abusers:

    Part of the process of encouraging the victim to feel inadequate involves getting them to feel that they really do deserve the abuse they are suffering. If the abuser is justified in punishing the victim, then the victim can hardly complain, can she?God is also described as being justified in punishing humanity — all people are so sinful and depraved that they deserve an eternity in hell (created by God). Their only hope is that God will take pity on them and save them.

    Victims are Not Trusted by Abusers:

    Another part of the process of making the victim feel inadequate is ensuring that they know how little the abuser trusts them. The victim is not trusted to make her own decisions, dress herself, buy things on her own, or anything else. She is also isolated from her family so that she can’t find help. God, too, is depicted as treating people as if they were unable to do anything right or make their own decisions (like on moral issues, for example).

    Emotional Dependency of the Abuser on the Victim:

    Although abusers encourage victims to feel inadequate, it is the abuser who really has problems with self-confidence. Abusers encourage emotional dependency because they are emotionally dependent themselves — this produces extreme jealousy and controlling behavior. God, too, is depicted as dependent upon human worship and love. God is usually described as jealous and unable to handle it when people turn away. God is all-powerful, but unable to prevent the smallest problems.

    Blaming the Victim for the Abuser’s Actions:

    Victims are typically made to feel responsible for all of an abuser’s actions, not just deserving of the punishments inflicted. Thus victims are told that it’s their fault when an abuser gets angry, feels suicidal, or indeed when anything at all goes wrong. Humanity is also blamed for everything that goes wrong — although God created humanity and can stop any unwanted actions, all responsibility for all evil in the world is laid entirely at the feet of human beings.

    Why Do Abused People Stay With Their Abusers?:

    Why do women stay with violent, abusive spouses? Why don’t they just pack up and leave, making a new life for themselves elsewhere and with people who actually respect and honor them as equal, independent human beings?The signs of abuse described above should help in answering these questions: women are so emotionally and psychologically beaten down that they lack the mental strength to do what is necessary. They don’t have enough confidence to believe that they can make it without the man who keeps telling them that only he could possibly love such an ugly and worthless person such as they.

    Perhaps some insight on this can be gained by rephrasing the question and asking why people don’t abandon the emotionally and psychologically abusive relationship they are expected to develop with God? The existence of God isn’t relevant here, what matters is how people are taught to perceive themselves, their world, and what will happen to them if they make the mistake of trying to leave the relationship in order to make a better life for themselves elsewhere.

    Women who are abused are told that they can’t make it on their own and if they try, their spouse will come after them to punish or even kill them. Believers are told that they can’t accomplish anything of value without God, that they are so worthless that only because God is infinitely loving does he love them at all; if they turn their backs on God, they will be punished for all eternity in hell. The sort of ‘love’ which God has for humanity is the ‘love’ of an abuser who threatens, attacks, and commits violence in order to get his own way.

    Religions like Christianity are abusive insofar as they encourage people to feel inadequate, worthless, dependent, and deserving of harsh punishment. Such religions are abusive insofar as they teach people to accept the existence of a god which, if human, would have long ago been shut away in prison for all his immoral and violent behavior.

    (source)

  • Herm

    This is the only word of God I speak, as was testified to then, with no need of scripture. I am with and in the Spirit of truth to whom you are blind to, as was Saul, as was Caiaphas and as was all others calling for the torture of the “King of the Jews”.

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31

    Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

    Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

    He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

    Matthew 15:10-14

    You have not been planted by my heavenly Father. Not to worry, should you not come to the one Teacher, when you fall into the pit you will no longer know anything or be able to maliciously influence anything, as you continue to do here, ever again…

    For your own sake, understand, written in your scripture that you proudly claim you religiously follow, that it was the most trusted scholars and authorities, charged with teaching and protecting scripture, who called for the torture and crucifixion of the Son of God in God’s name.

  • Herm

    This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

    Ecclesiastes 9:3-6

    You know nothing of God because you are not with and in God. The good news, the Gospel, is the Spirit of truth is in your midst as only he can to guide you into all truth as you can bear. Only as a student of the one Teacher, available to you, are you saved from the false teachers you disciple today. Why can’t you begin to comprehend that God is spirit, only, and children of God are born of the Spirit to inherit eternal life because they love the Lord their God with all their heart, with all their soul, with all their strength, with all their mind, and like that, they love their good neighbor as themselves, and carry a cross for their enemy? The Spirit of truth, sent by my heavenly Father, is not contained within a 1,900 years old manuscript of testimony written by authors who could not bear to know that the world was not flat and that all the heavens did not revolve around earth. When your physical body dies, your spirit (the image of God graced mankind), without the Spirit of truth is not mature enough to be aware or influential ever again. Any references to the fires of hell is an all consuming fire, not an eternal torture from fire that people of mankind can never adapt to.

    I hurt for you as you seem lost among the brood of vipers.

    How can you love the Lord your God when you do not know him?

  • Herm

    WMDKitty, I sense extreme pain from which caused you to lash out with this comment. As a trained social scientist I agree with most of what you have cut and pasted. I do not see where this is apropos to negate what I shared with D.M.S.. Elaborate, if you would, in your own words, please. Consider that I do not claim to be a member of the “Christian Church” which I believe empowers themselves and abuses their disciples through fear. The Christ I know, am in, and He is in me, attracts and holds me by love as His sibling, not out abusive fear of His vengeance and wrath. Share more, please!

  • Herm

    Perhaps, it is because you ordered from a menu that you could not, yet, bear to read.

  • Oh, good for you, I guess that just makes it all better, because you’re not like those other Christians! /s

    It’s the same god you believe in, no matter how you try to deny it.

  • D.M.S.

    You are a complete idiot.

  • D.M.S.

    And you are lost amongst your brood of vipers.
    I’ll keep praying for your salvation.

  • Tiny J

    See? I don’t get it. You’re basically asking me to repeat myself. I’m not sure what the joke is.

  • Herm

    But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
    Matthew 5:22

  • Herm

    No, one god is founded on mankind’s study of god. My God, by any name, is found solely on relationship. My family of God, who are spirit, live fully within the law of in everything do to others as we would have others do to us. We don’t choose to be abused.

  • Herm

    You don’t even know God beyond your study of the Bible. Do you think mankind might be able to bear to know more than when the world was flat and all the heavens revolved around them? Good news, God didn’t die and the Advocate is here, and has been for the last 1,900 + years.

  • D.M.S.

    You are NOT a brother or sister in Christ Jesus.
    You teach a blasphemous doctrine.
    I believe in the inerrant word(s) of God/Jesus thru scripture.

  • Herm

    … just like the Pharisees and Caiaphas believed in the inerrant word(s) of God through their study of scripture.

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Matthew 26:65-68

    And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

    “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

    Luke 12:10-12

    You don’t know the Holy Spirit anymore than did Caiaphas.

    He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Matthew 12:48-50

    True, you are not my sister or brother with and in Jesus, the Messiah, the living Instructor. You do not do the will of our Father, anymore than did Caiaphas.

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27

    You do not carry your own cross for your enemy, as is the will of my Father. You judge others to suffer on their cross no less than did Caiaphas.

    If you actually knew the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, today, what possible good could your 1,900 year old scripture of testimony do better for you to know God, filled in the Spirit and the Spirit in you? Your god is dead while you wait for him to return.

  • Wrong again. You are referring to the god of the Bible, the Christian God, and he does, in fact, behave abusively all through the book. Stop making excuses, and accept it.

    And of course nobody “chooses” to be abused, but guess what — that’s not how abuse works! Abuse happens not because victims “choose” it or “let it happen”. It happens because abusers desire power and control and will do literally anything, including kill, to keep their victim under their control. Just like your god does.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    I’m asking you to back up your claim that I am trolling.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Improbable

  • Herm

    This is what the Lord my God teaches:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42

    This is what my Messiah was refuting when the Levite priests usurped the authority of God:

    “ ‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

    Leviticus 24:17-22

    This is what the Spirit of truth teaches to children of God today.

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Matthew 5:43-48

    WMDKitty, what is your salvation from abuse from people of faith no less than from people of no faith?

    This is my salvation:

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27

    I am provided for, protected, loved, nurtured and taught every moment, of every day, without pause, with and in the Spirit of truth, never again dependent upon the lies and traditions instituted by family, priests, scholars, and teachers of the law. I cannot defeat abusers, and yes I was abused, for any by standing up to those with greater physical, social, and legal power than I. There is always a bigger gun or a faster draw. I can carry my cross for the abused and abuser alike hoping that in my sacrifice each may have the additional time to learn, especially in my faith of example, of the Spirit of truth available to them.

    It is a fact, as you know, that abusers begat abusers. The tone of your comments, offering no solution, comes off as abusive.

    You are loved and lovable.

  • Herm

    The probability that there is far more you don’t know, that is on the menu of life for you to choose from, than you do know is exponentially high.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Same goes for you…..there is a probability that what you think you know about your religion could be wrong. We could all be wrong.

  • Herm

    There is no other attraction to the potential of adventuring through eternal life than using every moment of it learning and sharing all there is to know, consumed no earlier than just after the end of eternity. Harps, clouds and singing praises to God becomes hell after the first week to week-and-a-half.

  • Phil Teichroew

    Many people side with Satan. To their own detriment, demise & eventual Eternal Damnation…

  • Oh, nice, you can cherry-pick the two or three “nice” bits of the Bible. Congratulations. BUT YOU’RE STILL IN DENIAL ABOUT THE NATURE OF YOUR GOD.

    I’ve lived through this, and your “god” is no better than my ex.

  • And I’d still trust him more than I’d trust some other people I’ve seen here.

  • Herm

    So, hate is your answer. I understand your anger and your pain, really I do, and I know from experience that bigoted targeting of all those who follow a “god”, and/or all those who follow no “god” at all, as the source of your abuse, and the abusive behavior of your “ex”, might sustain you by the strength derived from the emotion for a short time. When that emotion drops, which it will, your victim reflexes will remain without healing. The scars we all carry, life builds scars, but the continued reacting to abuse that is non-existent will continue the open sores of victim-hood you display today.

    Yes, support groups help, but not support groups that paint all men, all women, all religious, all non-religious, or all other groups, but their group, as the source for your abuse are destructive. Was your “ex” your “god”? Do all who worship your “ex”‘s “god” abuse their spouses and/or children? Do all, of your “ex”‘s church truly believe their “god” supports abuse of weaker victims?

    I didn’t cherry pick the two or three “nice” bits of the Bible. There are many more “bits” which reflect a God who is willing to die for the weak of mankind and, even, for God’s ignorant enemies who prey on others for their sense of self-worth, even unto the painful crucifixion of God’s child. I, intentionally, highlighted where authorities of God’s chosen people weren’t one of the “nice” bits of the Bible. There are more of those not “nice” bits, also.

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Matthew 5:43-48

    Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them.

    He said: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

    Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

    Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

    Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    Matthew 5:1-12

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12

    “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    Mark 10:6-9

    When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

    Mark 12:25

    Unless your “ex” was masochistic, does anything found in the last three “nice” bits justify, according to the Messiah, spousal abuse?

    Perhaps, you “ex”‘s church supported spousal abuse but the Christ does not.

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24

    There is no physical church, that is in any way administered by mankind, that is Jesus’ church founded on, with and in the Spirit of truth. Doctrine and theology is not relationship in God as a little infant child of spirit.

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    Did your “ex” ever speak of being with and in the same Spirit, appearing as a dove to whelm, fill, baptize Jesus the Christ, that led Him out into the wilderness?

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    If you want to know you’re learning the truth as you can bear, then don’t trust me, ask God directly. That changed my life, 23 years ago, at the age of 50. It can for you, too, for I am no more special to God than are you. I testify, which is all I have to convince you to try, that facing God directly and challenging Them to bring you peace, joy and truth by the Spirit of truth being with you, and in you, without pause, without end, will heal you from your pain and give you hope.

    Your “ex”‘s “god” is not my God (by any name). Your “ex”‘s “god” sounds more like the “god” of the Levite priests, who I pointed to earlier as the not so “nice” bits in the Bible, that your “ex” seems to have been a disciple of. I am sorry for your pain. All I am left with, although, is sharing what healed me and mine.

  • Ron McPherson

    I trust Bones more than some professing Christians, and I’m even a Christian myself lol

  • Forget it, you’re just another abuse apologist making excuses.

  • Tiny J

    LOL
    To help you do it better in the future? No thanks, I’m good.

  • Herm

    Your heart and mind is made up behind your blinders. I really, really do hurt for you. You won’t let me, or my God, help you.

    You haven’t read to comprehend anything I shared with you, or you would know that I do not apologize for nor attempt to justify any form of abuse, from anyone, toward anyone. You don’t know my God or you would know They do not apologize for nor justify any abuse, as They, too, are held to the divine standard of in everything doing to all others, first, as They would have all others do to Them, regardless of gender, sexual preference, race, creed, nationality or religious affiliation.

    Your “ex”, with a free will not all animal species have, is apparently your responsible abuser, not God, and not me. All that you have done is try to puff your avatar up to look tough while blaming those here for your abuse. You have offered no solution. You have only vented your anger.

  • “You just don’t understand him” is a standard excuse in defense of abusers. You don’t get to pretend to be all nice and wanting to heal while you worship an abusive sky-spouse.

  • Herm

    Okay, now you’re implying that “an abusive sky-spouse” is real and the true abuser here, is that correct? You’re projecting terms that can only source from brainstorming groups of injured individuals sitting around ruminating without ever getting real. Were you “all nice and wanting to heal while you” worshiped your abusive carnal spouse?

    WMDKitty, here are some stages of grief:

    1. SHOCK & DENIAL-

    2. PAIN & GUILT-

    3. ANGER & BARGAINING-

    4. “DEPRESSION”, REFLECTION, LONELINESS-

    5. THE UPWARD TURN-

    6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-

    7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-

    I don’t know how long it has been since you’ve been physically free from your abusive relationship. If this has been a relative long time and you’re mounting the focus of your “anger and bargaining” on any person of faith (or of no faith at all), who has no history of justifying abuse, founded on your “ex”‘s faith (as though all relationships carnal and spiritual are one in the same) is negligently abusive on your part, both to you and the innocent target of your pentup wrath.

    Perhaps, you won’t understand this but I have been told, “You just don’t understand her”. Tell me, “a standard excuse in defense of abusers” from whom?

  • Oh, look at that! You just engaged in another abusive behavior by trying to turn it around and make me the bad guy.

    You’ve also displayed a distinct lack of understanding — I never “worshiped” my abuser.

    What I’m saying is, Christianity is, itself, an abusive relationship. Sure, Bible-God is nice and caring at times. But that doesn’t erase or mitigate the times he engages in disproportionate violent retribution for minor infractions.

  • Herm

    WMDKitty, it is your choice to support others as you would have them support you, or to abuse others as your “ex” taught you well. I made it very clear, if you read to understand what I was trying to support you through your bigoted vengeance, that the “Lord God” in the Bible isn’t the same god every time. It is mankind who abuses mankind, and the Son of God, not the God I am one with and in as a little child.

    Right now, you are the bad guy when you accuse most here as being abusers like your “ex” because they’ve read the same Bible. Do you really believe that your “ex” wanted to be abused? “In everything do to others as you would have others do to you” is what most on this blog live, in everything. Does it give you the same sense of empowerment as it did your “ex” when you abuse the innocents? The “Bible-God” is not a single entity, not even the misunderstanding of three persons, but God is a Father, an only begotten Son, a mother, and more sisters and brothers of His Son than I can count, all in, with and whelmed by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is only an account of testimony to mankind’s relationship with God, good and evil, that covers from the first word written to the last far less time than has passed since the last word of the Bible was written. The word of God is not dead and is available to be spoken boldly by all who are filled with the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit.

    You can blame any you want. It does no one any good, very much including you, when you are wrong and have no idea who and what you are hurting by your attack.

    I can take it, it’s part of carry the cross I gratefully bear for you, and all like you who know not what they do. You can’t take it. This bullying is eating you alive, literally. For your sake understand why even God must live by Matthew 7:12. It is the totality of all law that governs how we relate to one another in order for each to live a long and prosperous life. I really want you to live. That is my choice.

  • I haven’t accused anyone here of being abusers like my ex.

    I said the god you worship is abusive. That is, when you look at how the Bible portrays him, he shows a classic pattern of abusive behavior as outlined in (but not limited to the examples in) my initial post.

    Please don’t confuse the two.

    As for my former fiancee, I don’t want… well, okay, I’d love to see his actions catch up to him in the most spectacular way possible. But I don’t think that really counts as “revenge” so much as “consequences long deserved.” I don’t want him dead or anything, I just want him to be in a position where he’s unable to abuse anyone else, ever again.

    I’d like a little justice.

    I’d like it if society would stop treating victims like they “deserved” it. Nobody chooses to be a victim, you know, I didn’t wake up one day and say, “gee, I’d like to be smacked around and raped and have every boundary ignored!”

    What you need to know is that I’m disabled — I’m on wheels. My abuser was (and still is, I presume) an able-bodied man, about 6′, and twice my weight. It didn’t matter if I fought back. He was bigger and stronger. He used my lack of mobility to his advantage.

    As for blame? I blame my abuser for being an abuser. He chose to use violence, he chose to violate my body, he’s the only one responsible for that.

    Oh, and one last thing — I’m not “grieving”. I’m angry as hell because I’ve been subjected to things nobody should ever have to be subjected to. I have PTSD. No amount of coping, or going through the grieving process, is going to stop the flashbacks, nightmares, night terrors, panic attacks, and hypervigilance. It’s not going to erase the trauma. Neither will your Holy Spirit. Therapy might help, but you know how thin those resources are spread — I don’t want to take a spot from someone who needs it more than I do.

  • Herm

    No one blames you for your pain. No one here has said, WMDKitty asked to be abused, no one. Why cannot you understand that just because you’ve been taught to read the Bible as the inerrant word of God, the Bible does not say that it is? Why can’t you understand that it was those who worshiped scriptures as God’s law, and as perfectly reflective of God’s will, who crucified the Son of God in God’s name? I am a Vietnam, in country, vet and the Holy Spirit does clarify PTSD to no longer be in control of my life and/or life choices. How can you say he cannot, for you, when you don’t know him? Your husband didn’t know him, for I can testify for absolutely certain by experience, you can’t intentionally abuse another with the Spirit of truth as your guide. I know the difference of with him and without him.

    Therapy will help you and is never spread so thin that you must sacrifice yourself, to once again be the sacrificial victim (?), for someone who must be in greater need. Your need is great and you deserve the good support, empathy, tolerance, compassion and forgiveness now. While you still have the fight left in you, get professional secular help from a therapist with a record of helping your needs as best you can honestly define them, both obvious and possible. Try a few until you know you’ve found someone capable of guiding you out of your anger and into self-sufficient, don’t care about the wheels, peace and joy.

    There are good and socially healthy people out there who can support you to self-worth equal to any in the body of Man, regardless of nationality, religion, gender, sexuality, and handicaps. Seek them out, please, and not ever waste your anger on a venue, such as this, to castigate a, or any, god you do not know. If any blog, or venue, says it’s the victim of an abuser who is at fault then you have reason, experience and authority to tell them they are full of shit and destructive to the good of mankind. This isn’t that venue, at all.

    Please, please, please, get help! Your are loved exactly like you are!!!

  • Bones

    The FOOL here is you, Mr I’m holier than everyone else on here.

  • Bones

    So why do you do it?

  • Phil Teichroew

    More FAKE news from Apostate Dry Bones…

  • Phil Teichroew

    Why do you do it, Reprobate Dry Bones?

  • Bones

    You enjoy it dont you phil?

    You get off on the feeling of superiority don’t ypu

    It has an orgasmic effect on you doesnt it.

    You love putting othrrs down in the name ofypur cruel and vindictive Idol.

    Ever wonder why YOUR God is exactly like YOU.

    A narcissist infatuated with themselves.

  • Bones

    Phil came on to show how big a jerk he and His Idol are.

    Well done Phil.

    Well done.

    Comgratulationd.

  • Phil Teichroew

    “Comgratulationd”?
    Very sorry your extreme anguish, pain & Godlessness has driven you to douse your sorrow & self-pity with heavy drunkenness!
    God is your ONLY answer!

  • Bones

    Lol poor Phool has no job, no friends , no family and is left to beating up people on the internet.

    What a sad pathetic figure you are.

    Your god is the answer to this.

    Which god wants me to act like a vindictive self righteous prick?

    Answer

    Phool’s god.

  • Phil Teichroew

    Your four fingers are pointing back at yourself & it seems you love talking about yourself & your insecurities.
    But God has an answer for all that & He truly does love you!

  • Phil Teichroew

    You have to go beyond your AA meetings because ONLY God can truly help you conquer your addictions & give you true peace of mind, heart & soul!

  • Bones

    Yeah there’s a lot of fingers pointing back at you phool.

    Remember who the dickhead was who came on here pointing out everyone’s sin.

    Not so clever now are you Mr Superchristian.

    Not liking having YOUR sins pointed out now are you?

    Your god loves no one other than phool.

    It is incapable of love because it is the god of the pharisees.

    It doesnt exist.

  • Phil Teichroew

    God surely exists, loves you & someday EVERY knee will bow!

  • Bones

    Your god doesn’t exist.

    It’s a hateful merkin like you.

  • D.M.S.

    Oh yes He does!
    LIAR…I wonder how many people you’re helping send to ‘ HELL ‘ with your LIES.

  • Herm

    D.M.S., who have you been talking to? It certainly isn’t the Teacher. You don’t know God, our God who created us all equally with certain inalienable rights. You don’t know my Father in heaven who loves us all, rain or shine (Matthew 5:43-48). Talk to Him, He will listen and He will respond in love.

  • D.M.S.

    GOD/JESUS teaches us that there is definitely a ‘ hell ‘ and the unsaved are going to go there.
    Something somewhere has brainwashed you and your colleagues into believing that GOD/JESUS is love and love only.
    HE is judgemental and wrathful and is to be Feared, both Old and New Testaments speak of this everywhere.

  • Herm

    Bullshit! You’ve been reading the Bible too long without ever finding the Spirit of truth.

    Jesus, who is in me and I in Him, this very moment, without pause or end, of whom our Father loves and is well pleased with us both (Matthew 3:17), teaches us that there is only one unforgivable trespass against the law that all of God abides by. That you know not what you do, as you crucify children of God in God’s name, is not an unforgivable sin. Repent and ask God to be with and in you with the Spirit of truth, our Father, and Jesus the Christ, as it is written, separate from your theology no less destructive than that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law.

  • D.M.S.

    I already have His great love.
    You think GOD/JESUS is sugar and spice and everything nice.
    Are you ever in for a rude awakening.
    It’s out of love that I keep trying to tell all of you the truth of our Great GOD/JESUS.
    Yes He is a very loving GOD.
    But you try to paint a picture that there is ‘ NO Sin ‘ in this world. Sin is rampant and everywhere and we need to try and help bring these sinners to our Lord.
    There is a ‘ Hell ‘ and if these people in the world don’t turn away from their wickedness they will live in ‘ Hell ‘ for eternity.
    I know who my ‘ Teacher ‘ is
    He’s the HolySpirit.

    I keep wondering who(m) your Teacher is….

  • Herm

    Now, you are bordering on the only unforgivable trespass. Jesus taught by lifting up the ignorant, poor, and down trodden with love, real applied love all the way to His cross, not by intimidating or manipulating through a false fear of an eternal torture. Jesus teaches how to begin today living with and in God, as infant children of spirit, with no end.

    You sound more like Caiaphas than the Messiah.

    Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

    Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

    “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death. Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.

    Mark 14:60-65

    Learn that the charter Jesus has given all His students is only to make others, from all nations, students of His by becoming with and in the Spirit of truth, the only Way, as is He.

    And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

    Mark 11:25-26

    Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

    Luke 23:34

    By your fruit you do not know the word of God to boldly speak as is portrayed in Acts 4:31 before there was a Bible compiled and edited by teachers of the law.

    You do not see to accept and know the Spirit of truth.

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

  • D.M.S.

    Do you have any scripture to recite from Romans, Acts, Corinthians, Galations, Ephesians, Peter, or 1st and 2nd John.
    For me to live by from our Lord Jesus?

  • D.M.S.

    Your god has a liberal constitution.
    That god only exist to you.
    But not to true Christians, that love and know our Lord Christ Jesus.

  • D.M.S.

    You’re a moron, that’s all there is to it.
    The only spirit in you is a demon.
    These New Testament passages states that there is a hell. Or do you deny this scripture too?
    Luke 12:5.
    Mathew 5:22. & 18.9. & 23:33.

  • D.M.S.

    How can that be. You said that there is no ‘ hell ‘.
    Hmmmm.

  • Herm

    Gehenna is the word for “hell” in:

    But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    Matthew 5:22

    The burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna.

    Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire. Who does your god sacrifice to? My God loves even Their worst enemies and would in no way ever consider inflicting eternal torture on stupid human beings in Their image who rebel to forever reject becoming Their children inheriting eternal life.

    In Rabbinic literature and Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.

    Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol of everlasting destruction. (Matthew 23:33) He said that in Gehenna “the maggot does not die and the fire …https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/lake-of-fire/

    Gehenna is the word for “hell” in:

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started! “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

    Matthew 23:29-33

    Greek Word: γέεννα
    Transliteration: geenna
    Phonetic Pronunciation: gheh’-en-nah
    Root: of Hebrew origin , and
    Cross Reference: TDNT – 1:657,113
    Part of Speech: n f
    Vine’s Words: Hell
    English Words used in KJV:
    hell 9
    hell fire + + 3
    [Total Count: 12]
    of Hebrew origin [ (gay’) and (Hinnom)]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figurative) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment :- hell.

    Strong’s Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

    This is the only opposite to eternal life for God’s creations and responsibilities:

    This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun. Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

    Ecclesiastes 9:3-10

    Life is no more than awareness and influence for each so gifted. The loss of life is death with no awareness and influence, to become forgotten by those who live on.

    Your god would poor gasoline on little kittens and light the fire to watch them suffer. Your god is a shallow, vindictive, wrathful, greedy, and self-indulgent portrayal of a volcano god who demands the most beautiful virgin daughters in return for not burning the village and all its people.

    My God has indelibly taught me that the greatest among us will be our servants. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. The greatest among the children of God on earth, and in heaven, is our Brother with all authority, our Father who nurtures us as our heavenly parent, and the Holy Spirit who is with and in all our hearts, souls, strengths, minds bound in all love. None of us, in any way, intimidate or manipulate others to our Father’s will with threats of eternal torture because they make the wrong choices.

    If you continue to follow your Pharisees, Sadducees, teachers of the law, priests, doctrines, theologies and scholars to threaten others with accepting your god to avoid a sentence of eternal torture, eventually the elements of your physical body will return to the earth, from whence it came, and your spirit (your graced image of God) will know nothing, influence nothing and will be forgotten forever more. That is not meant as a threat for you will be at peace with no more responsibility to struggle in learning, adventure and sharing. That is what we do with destructive seeds, we isolate them, not take vengeance on them. They don’t know what they do. You do not know what you do. Caiaphas did not know what he did.

    The fire of Gehenna completely cleanses the influence of those temporal destructive seeds (the intimidating, manipulating and confusing) from imposing their self-indulgent will on constructive seeds (empathetic, compassionate, forgiving, tolerant who do to all others, including their enemies, what they would have all others do to them) for an eternity. All that you, D.M.S., need to do to live is found in Luke 10:27, all. By your fruit you are not and probably don’t even know what I am sharing with you.

    Children of God are spirit. Children of Man are temporal and always were. Children of Man will die as they are dependent upon the elements of earth to be aware and influential. Children of God, no longer just a dim image of God’s spirit, live with and in God in the Spirit of truth without end. We live in spirit today, even as physical children of Man on earth, as did Jesus our Brother, the Son of Man, after the Holy Spirit, appearing as a dove, was with and in Him without pause or end, except for three days to end all further sacrifice.

    Truly, you do not know what you do and my Father will forgive you.

    Jesus’ church is spirit and no physical church, administrated by Man on this earth, is where we, God’s children, worship God and our Father. All physical churches on earth today, stemming from the children of Abraham, are remnants of the Pharisees, Sadducee, scribes, and priests who once shared the authority of the seat of Moses and who led to crucify a child of God, God who they did not know, in God’s name. You do the same when you don’t lead by God’s love but you do by your god’s vengeance. Ask God directly!!!

  • Herm

    This is my liberal God:

    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    Matthew 25:31-46

    That is liberal when you know that eternal punishment is knowing nothing, influencing nothing, and forgotten forever more.

    This is my liberal God:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Matthew 5:43-48

    Nothing is more liberal, in everything doing to others first as we would have others do to us, than carrying to mount our cross in hopes that those who place us there might one day learn to live.

    I am a true child of God and student (disciple) of the Messiah. By your fruit you only know of the “Lord Christ Jesus” from what others teach you through the Bible, as did the Pharisees, Sadducee and scribes teach the crowd to vote to crucify the Son of God/Son of Man in God’s name. I know of the “Lord Christ Jesus” because He is in my heart, soul, strength, mind, and I in His, bound forever in all love.

  • D.M.S.

    Awfully strange passages for someone who doesn’t believe in an eternal hell.
    But they do help you with your pride that I do believe in eternal damnation.

  • D.M.S.

    I don’t consider you a brother in Christ.
    But you do need salvation.
    When our Father nurtures us we all believe the same way as our Father does.

  • D.M.S.

    It amazes me that people who try to state that they know Hebrew, Aramaic, and or Latin, etc.
    Think that us lay people who don’t know the languages. Is going to believe even one word that they try to describe.
    I don’t consider you to be a brother in Christ Jesus. So what makes you think that I’m going to believe a word that you state?

  • D.M.S.

    That’s your belief not mine.

  • D.M.S.

    You’re welcome to to tell your lie anyway that you want.

  • D.M.S.

    Why are you reciting from a book that you don’t want me to believe?
    That makes no sense.

  • D.M.S.

    Listening too. Dr. J. Vernon McGee.
    Pastor Tom Brock. Francis Chan,
    Ravi Zacharias, Hal Lindsey,
    Robert Jeffress, to name a few.
    All with the Lord Jesus and the HolySpirit in their collective hearts.

  • Herm

    The Bible is not the definitive word of God. The Bible is a sincere chronicle, one of the first from mankind, of Man’s relationship and understanding of God from their limited perspective, not God’s more comprehensive perspective.

    Do you understand what role a teacher of the law, a scribe, played in the development of the Bible? Do you understand why Jesus expressed such woe relative to “teachers of the law”?

    I recite from the experiences of others, documented imperfectly in the Bible, because this is where you suggest that you find your sole authority.

    This is written in your Bible:

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31

    Are you any less able to be filled, whelmed, baptized with and in the Holy Spirit to be able to certainly and boldly speak the word of God, without any Bible, as were they 1,975 years ago?

    In Paul’s final charge to Timothy…

    But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    2 Timothy 3:14-17
    … the “Scripture” was what is now your Old Testament.

    The Messiah is quoted in your Bible to have said…

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42
    … in direct rebuke of the Old Testament “Scripture”.

    “ ‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

    Leviticus 24:17-22 as well as Exodus 21:24 and Deuteronomy 19:21.

    None of those from scripture is the will of my heavenly Father even when each says they are from the LORD God.

    Today I know what a quark is. I know that my physical universe is 13 billion revolutions of earth around its dim sun, give or take a billion years. My God, with no beginning and no end, knows that and relatively infinitely more than I. God knew that when Saul/Paul, the most educated of the apostles, had been trained to believe we lived on a flat earth, that was created 4,000 years earlier, and that all the heavens revolved around earth. How much more have we learned in the past 1,918 years since the Bible was written, that God knew all along?

    No, D.M.S., it is you who makes no sense. Your Bible tells you that God is spirit, only. Your Bible tells you that the Holy Spirit can tell you directly what to say when you are brought before courts. Your Bible tells you that the Hole Spirit, who once appeared as a dove, is available to fill, whelm, baptize you that you may be in Jesus and Jesus in you today. Just because your Bible is imperfect, and is not God, are you afraid that you’ve been deceived, God must not exist and you are left alone? Talk to God, directly, and if They do not definitely answer you then you can suggest God doesn’t exist. Until then, trust the chance that my God, ours if you seek Them, is big and capable enough to provide for you, nurture you, protect you and teach you, directly in spirit (the image you know in you of God), eternally much more certainly than did your carnal family throughout your infancy. Get off your egotistical judgmental high horse and approach God as a needy infant child and you will not be rejected or ever be left orphaned, on your own, again, as it is written. Does that make any sense to you?

  • Herm

    Nice and sincere people, all of them, but each dependent upon their “study of God” (theology) to teach others of God. My Father in heaven, my Brother Jesus, and all the other children of God on earth and in heaven share, as one God, the Holy Spirit in our collective hearts, souls, strengths, minds bound in all love (empathy, forgiveness, tolerance and support in everything doing for each other as we would have each other do for us).

    If you actually knew the Spirit of truth, because He actively lived with you and in you without pause or end, why do you need ever to listen to the collective hearts of mankind to know God? Actual relationship with others trumps having to study those others.

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    That day” came when the curtain was torn top to bottom and all authority given Man on earth by God, on the seat of Moses, was removed by our Father to be given Jesus on earth and in heaven. That was over 1,985 years, ago. God has not taken a vacation leaving Their children orphaned.

    I don’t need to study God when I can, and do, relate with and in God without pause and with Their faithful promise of no end, ever. Did you require a manual (like the Bible), or the collective hearts of other human infants, to learn and grow under the authority of your carnal family when you were their infant child? In spirit you are comparatively a less capable, and more helpless, infant than you were as a carnal infant dependent upon your family to survive. God is my family whom I trust more than I ever could have my carnal parents, or the collective hearts of my local community, or the collective hearts of each of mankind of which none were more than 120 years experienced.

    Trust God, who I testify by my own relationship is available to you, not the other immature infants sharing this spiritually restricted nursery that we call earth.

  • D.M.S.

    The bible
    ” IS the INERRANT ” word(s) of
    ” GOD/ JESUS “.
    I don’t care what you believe mister, you’re NOT my brother in CHRIST.

  • Herm

    Tell me D.M.S., please, what do I need salvation from?

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27

    Why am I carrying my cross for you if you will not accept the Holy Spirit as your Way, your only Way, to be with and in the Messiah to learn the fallacies taught through your allegiance to your family and community of carnal birth?

    Disciple means pupil, student. The accepted disciples of Christ, by Christ, are His sisters, brothers and mother. I don’t care whether you accept or reject me as a brother in Christ. I care only that The Messiah accepts me as His student. The Spirit of truth is only from whom I am saved the fallacies found in the Bible and from mankind’s teaching in the study of God that lead to death. I will live if I love the Lord my God with all my heart, with all soul, with all my strength, with all my mind, and like that, I love my good neighbor (no matter what tribe, gender, sexual preference, or religion) as I do my self. If I don’t meet the prerequisite, my gracious God, who loves me and my enemies, will allow me to die with no longer any flawed awareness or destructive influence forever more.

    My Father knows all that has past, with no beginning, and invites me to share as we learn in shared adventure what is yet to come, with no end. We do not believe the same way as no infant believes the same as its parent. I trust my Father’s will which begins in me with His gracious, benevolent and sacrificial love for me who has nothing to offer but my love.

    I am interested, what do you believe you are saved from, to do what?

  • Herm

    Bullshit!

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42

    Your wanting to believe something does not make it so.

    Just who do you think you are? By what authority do you speak? Where in your Bible are you given the authority that you try in vain to intimidate and manipulate me with? I really don’t give a damn whether you judgmentally accept me as your brother in CHRIST. I care that CHRIST accepts, loves, nurtures and teaches me as His eternal little sibling today, and for as long as He judges, by His authority, that I am constructive (good) to all life and not destructive (evil) to any other life.

  • D.M.S.

    With language like that no thanks.
    You wanting to believe something doesn’t make it so.
    Right back at you, mister.

  • Bones
  • D.M.S.

    The first and the last question you asked.
    1 John 2:15-17.
    1 Corinthians 3:7-8.

  • Bones

    DMS is replying to your old post because no one else will give him the attention he craves.

  • D.M.S.

    You and I may not agree on much when it comes to our Lord.
    But, I do believe that we grow thru the teachings of the HolySpirit.
    Each at our own pace.

  • Herm

    By your fruit I know where you are rooted and it isn’t with the body that is with and in the Holy Spirit. Bye!

  • D.M.S.

    I will keep praying for your salvation.
    Bye.

  • D.M.S.

    In many aspects you’re right.
    But I’m still a learning Christian and I always will be.
    I’ve learned recently that we’re not going to change the world.
    But mostly you won’t be the one teaching me.
    The HolySpirit will be doing all of the teaching.
    Peace.

  • D.M.S.

    How loving has the child become?

  • Ivan Beggs

    D.M.S. Seriously, please give a more detailed explanation. I don’t understand the response.

    It seems to say that childhood diseases that last a lifetime are great if they child becomes loving. Or, if the child is abused then that is ok if the child becomes loving. That what happened to the six million Jews and seven million others who were tortured and/or terminated in concentration camps was loving if the people who survived were loving.

    Something seems to be mission and it is not clear what. Thanks.

  • D.M.S.

    What’s missing. Is loving GOD.
    What came to the Jews after the atrocities by the nazi’s.
    People around the world including Truman opening their hearts to bring His children back to their home.

  • D.M.S.

    14.5….lol.

  • Herm

    So, when did this universe begin?

  • D.M.S.

    Alpha…

  • Herm

    So, when was that for our universe as we know it to be today?

    … you know, how long before the church persecuted Galileo for suggesting that all the heavens did not revolve around our puny little earth only 403 years ago!!!

  • D.M.S.

    Don’t care..,

  • Herm

    What do you care about, beyond accusing others as you would not have others accuse you?

  • Ron Baldasseroni

    Catherine. I am a Christian, and a ‘seeker of truth’. I have bordered on atheism myself for a very long time.. (still have such tendencies) Having said that, thank you so much for your comments. Again, I have no desire to abandon my current relationship with my deity, but you raise some incredibly interesting, and in my own estimation, valid points about polytheism. It is my conviction, as a result of your conviction, to research these points further in the best commentary of the Bible there is, which, again in my estimation, is the Bible itself. I believe this is expressly what makes people better and allows them to grow- by bringing your truth to the table, rather than bashing people over the head with interpretation and dogmatism. Thank you Catherine. May God bless you abundantly and richly.

  • Brandon Roberts

    sure he doesn’t.

  • Lori Jennings-Smith

    This is a misquote.
    The Bible verse is from 1 Corinthians 10:13 – … And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out, so that you can endure it.

  • sylvials

    My husband has had Alzheimer’s for 10 years. It is only through the grace of God that I get up every morning. Dave said to me, “God gave me a great mind and memory and, of course, He can have it back.”

  • Mike Curnutt
  • Emily Elizabeth Windsor-Cragg

    Blaming God for our experiences is what people do who don’t take Scrpture seriously.