Franklin Graham: Blame White Terrorism On Those Who Voted To Remove The Racist Monument

Franklin Graham: Blame White Terrorism On Those Who Voted To Remove The Racist Monument August 14, 2017

Trump-Graham-640x480

What Franklin Graham Is Wrong About Today

(my head is about to #$@ing explode edition)

As a Christian, I am almost at a loss for words.

Over the course of time, there has been no shortage of things Franklin Graham has been wrong about. Nor has there been any shortage of issues where he boldly issued sharp, public rebukes, against those he thought were wrong.

And certainly, Franklin Graham has been the last person to hesitate issuing strong condemnations of movements, political leaders, and the ideologies that inspire or fuel them.

In fact, that’s what Franklin Graham does– if he didn’t, I’m not even sure what he would post about on Facebook.

Yet, today it is clear that Franklin Graham appears to have no indecision or hesitation to rebuke and condemn, except when there’s a terrorist attack by white supremacists. 

While there are a lot of issues in life where two sides can have legitimate, opposing viewpoints, and times in life where deciding between right and wrong is tricky enough that it requires one to approach a situation with nuance and care, I can think of no easier case of knowing who or what to condemn than when effing nazis are marching in the street and killing people. 

Apparently Franklin Graham thinks the responsibility and condemnation needs to reside elsewhere, and should be spread out among a few groups of people. In a statement on Facebook, Graham condemns a lot of people, but they are all the wrong people:

“Shame on the politicians who are trying to push blame on President Trump for what happened in #Charlottesville, VA. That’s absurd. What about the politicians such as the city council who voted to remove a memorial that had been in place since 1924, regardless of the possible repercussions? How about the city politicians who issued the permit for the lawful demonstration to defend the statue? And why didn’t the mayor or the governor see that a powder keg was about to explode and stop it before it got started? Instead they want to blame President Donald J. Trump for everything. Really, this boils down to evil in people’s hearts. Satan is behind it all. He wants division, he wants unrest, he wants violence and hatred. He’s the enemy of peace and unity. I denounce bigotry and racism of every form, be it black, white or any other. My prayer is that our nation will come together. We are stronger together, and our answers lie in turning to God. It was good to hear that several Virginia and Charlottesville leaders attended church today at Mt. Zion. CNN said, “The racial divides that fueled Saturday’s violence were replaced by unity Sunday…” Continue to pray for peace and for all those impacted by Saturday’s tragedies.”

While there is much to find shocking and appalling about this statement, the most morally outrageous is this position:

When white nationalists march in the street and kill people, we should blame the people who voted to remove a racist monument because “they should have known” that the decision wouldn’t be popular with racists.

I’ve spent the last few hours thinking about this, and I still can’t figure out how anyone could arrive at this conclusion.

What is equally shocking as the fact that he blamed all the wrong people, is the mind-numbing refusal to specifically condemn the people who actually committed this act of terror: white nationalists.

Over the course of time, Graham has issued his sharpest rebukes in cases of terrorism– when it happens to be a Muslim who did it. In these cases, he quickly takes to the airwaves to remind everyone of the “evil” of Islam, and to reiterate that we are “at war with Islam.” He’s shown time and time again a capability and willingness to condemn a people group, and their belief system.

But in the clear-cut case of nazis literally dressing up like Donald Trump, marching through the streets with torches, and ultimately killing people?

Nope.

Condemn the governor. Condemn local leaders. Condemn the people who voted to remove the racist monument without considering it might hurt the feelings of racists.

Condemn everyone– except for the people who did it, and the white nationalistic ideology that was behind it.

And to make it worse? He has to take it one step further and say that any attempt to connect the dots between the ideology of Trump and the ideology of those who brought terror to Charlottesville, is simply an attempt by Satan to divide us.

Let me sum it up for you, Christians in Americaland: Franklin Graham issued a stronger condemnation of Target when they removed the “boy” versus “girl” label from their toy aisles, than he did when pro-Trump white nationalists terrorized and killed people.

And that disgusting fact is What Franklin Graham is Wrong About Today.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

Be sure to check out his new blog, right here, and follow on Facebook:

"You are a denier. Not surprising. So you are on the side of the few ..."

No, The Gospel Isn’t “Good News” ..."
"No "denial" required since this unique and inconsequential item of archaeological novelty is not evidence ..."

No, The Gospel Isn’t “Good News” ..."
"The Tel Dan Inscription. (read next before you counter that no one believes this)"The “House ..."

No, The Gospel Isn’t “Good News” ..."
"Papyrus P52 has been claimed as the oldest reference to a mythical god-man named Jesus ..."

No, The Gospel Isn’t “Good News” ..."

Browse Our Archives

Follow Us!


TRENDING AT PATHEOS Progressive Christian
What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Al Cruise

    White supremacy, KKK, etc. are the fruits of the Southern Baptists and their Theology.

  • Richard Alan Rutledge Jr

    Let’s not blame the High Priest, the Sanhedrin, or the Romans.. we should blame Jesus who knew his words and actions would anger and inflame the Romans and the High Priest.

  • Matthew

    Is peace sometimes impossible to have? It seems so.

    As much as I would like to see peace between Christian camps,
    I think you are correct in your analysis.

    Lord have mercy.

  • gimpi1

    Mr. Graham is wrong about so much, but he truly outdid himself with this… it’s not the fault of the terrorists – it’s the people who upset the terrorists, the people who gave the terrorists a permit for a demonstration, the people who also demonstrated against the terrorists… anyone and everhone is to blame except the freaking terrorists, one of whom attempted mass-murder.

    Now, Mr. Trump is not directly responsible for the attacks, but he spent his entire campaign feeding people’s bigotry and fear, excusing acts of violence by his supporters, lying about groups that his supporters fear or dislike and trying to make racist and hateful ideas more mainstream. He also carefully avoided putting responsibility for the violence on those who committed it. He bears some guilt here.

    Of course, Mr. Trump won’t care. He’s defrauded, molested, lied and stolen and he’s never cared about any of that. However, the fact that Mr. Graham doesn’t care, either, tells us a great deal about him – none of it good.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    And unsurprisingly, Franklin is part of the same denomination that gave America the Ku Klux Klan.

  • CatmanDude

    Just heard Franklin Graham’s latest stupidity as I came home from work. This kind of ” logic” [ blame victims for not tolerating B S] is part of the reason I broke from fundy/ evangelical churches long ago. Blaming officials in Va. and resistance protesters for the violence is the equivalent of blaming a rape victim for getting beaten because she screamed at her attacker. The way apologists- esp. evanjellyfish- have rolled over for this orange- faced racist/ sexist/elitist/ pathological psychopath in the W H is beyond sickening. FG is no better than David Duke or his Fake POTUS.

  • No, no, no. We should really blame the people who gave birth to the people who voted for the politicians who voted to remove the monument. No, wait, that’s not indirect enough. We should blame the founding fathers who established a system of government that allowed things like this monument to be re… what’s that? The founding fathers were all paragons of Christianity. Ok. Hrmm….

    Ok, you know who’s to blame here? Plato. Freakin’ Greek philosophers coming up with the foundations that would become the system of America’s government that would lead to the election of politicians who would remove the monument and make racist terrorists angry and provoke this backlash!

  • That was the line that I couldn’t get over, either. Because it is exactly the same thing abusive husbands say to excuse their violence against their wives. “She knew if she behaved that way I would hit her.” Zero responsibility for their own abhorrent behaviour – it is ALL the victims’s fault! It’s absolutely disgusting and inexcusable!

  • Don Lowery

    Okay…he wants to go after those responsible…he better be the first one to shut down that “ministry”. Not only that…but we need to start bankrupting these racist organizations like Falwell’s as well. You pay him to go to school online…look for another college which doesn’t have racist leanings. Quit going to these racist Baptist churches. Cut off their money and you will get their attention. Quit giving to this rapture garbage…since many of these organizations are just fronts for Falwell and others to head to the bank. Quit giving to Samaritan’s Purse. Cut off the funds they skim off the top to keep their lifestyle going. It’s going to be hard…but if you want to stop this BS…it needs to start by killing their golden goose.

  • Don Lowery

    Goes MUCH deeper than Graham and his brand of demons. Falwell and others started their “schools” to get around the segregation of the time. Any ministry which these demons have their hands on need to start going bankrupt.

  • Don Lowery

    Why not blame God for creating the Big Bang 13 billion years ago? That darn free will has gotten in the way for the 30,000+ years humans have been on this planet…so let’s just put the blame where the blame is due. ;)

  • Here is a quote from a regular contributor to slacktivist blog I found today:
    //It’s important for people to gain a subtler understanding of racism (i.e. beyond literal Nazis and literal slavery apologists) and how it has affected and continues to affect us — and that means everywhere, even in the more progressive areas, otherwise these deeper-seated problems are never going away. And I think that understanding is starting to spread. But at the same time, we do still have literal Nazis and literal slavery apologists. It’s like this big classroom where we have graduate students and remedial students and everyone in between.//
    I think Lesson by lesson, as the crisis unfolds in America a few of those with teaching gifts & gifts of being able to encourage others are the first to pick up on the new realities & strategic ploys in order to convey to others the subtle changes so that everyone can connect with what’s happening. I’m thankful to Fred Clark today, for instance, for sussing out this piece of the puzzle: Regarding “new school racism.”
    //“the expected response…functions less as actual condemnation than as a creative claim of innocence.”//
    //“new school racism.”…anything short of a parade of proudly sieg-heiling Neo-Nazis doesn’t fall into the category of the “racism” being condemned as a sin…
    performance of this ritual condemnation shields [new school racists] from any accusation of racism due to [their] unqualified devotion to Donald Trump or [their] zealous support for the confirmation of federal judges who will prevent black citizens from voting.//
    And this:
    //[new school racists are] so busy insisting that it would be unfair to accuse [them] of failing to properly condemn “antisemitism, white nationalism, & supremacism” that [they don’t] quite bother to actually condemn those things. [new school Racist statements aren’t] even about the white-supremacists marching in Charlottesville, it’s about [themselves].//

  • Linda Coleman Allen

    You are ccorrect.

  • Realist1234

    I agree with you. But disappointing, though understandable, to see the organiser of the march physically attacked by anti-racists.

  • ethelmertz1010

    The point this rabble rousing trouble making so called Christian made that people were blaming Trump reflects his ignorance. People are upset with Trump’s reluctance to call out Nazis, KKK and all other White Nationalist types by name, which he did two days after the firestorm. I immediately turned off the live feed after his first announcement that he condemns all sides and repeated all sides again. I am so sick of seeing his dumb countenance and listening to his insincere voice every day. I pray for the day the news media gives the country a mental break and cover nothing dealing with this incompetent fool.

  • Christian Dovel

    Why stop there? Why not blame it on the people who voted to install the statue in the first place? Or even the parents who reared the people who voted to install the statue in the first place.

  • Al Cruise

    ” Richard Furman, a leader of the South Carolina Baptist Convention, stated in a famous address to the Governor of South Carolina, “The right of holding slaves is clearly established by the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.” [See Exposition of The Views of the Baptists, Relative To The Colored Population In The United States]. The next year, in 1845, those firmly convicted defenders of slavery formed their own separate Baptist denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. ” Here is ground zero where the seeds were planted, that have grown and morphed into today’s , white supremacists, KKK, and neo Nazis .

  • Nate Pennington

    Hell will burst wide open when Graham dies! Fake Christian, buying his stairway to hell!

  • $144948586

    Who gave the supremacists a voice?

  • Al Cruise

    The Southern Baptists.

  • $144948586

    Please, explain.

  • $144948586

    “The next year, in 1845”
    He died in 1825. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Furman

    “Here is ground zero where the seeds were planted”
    Yup, in the Democratic South.

    “have grown and morphed into today’s , white supremacists, KKK, and neo Nazis .”
    From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
    First Klan:
    “The first Klan flourished in the Southern United States in the late 1860s, then died out by the early 1870s. It sought to overthrow the Republican state governments”
    Hmm, nothing about this first Klan’s religion.
    “They were described as acting as the military arm of the Democratic Party and are attributed with helping white Democrats regain control of state legislatures throughout the South.”

    Second Klan:
    “The second KKK preached “One Hundred Percent Americanism” and demanded the purification of politics, calling for strict morality and better enforcement of prohibition.”
    Hmm, how nationalist. The only thing about religion:
    “Its official rhetoric focused on the threat of the Catholic Church, using anti-Catholicism and nativism. Its appeal was directed exclusively at white Protestants; it opposed Jews, blacks, Catholics, and newly arriving Southern European immigrants such as Italians.”
    Of course, ignoring the “whiteness” of these groups.

    Third Klan:
    “The “Ku Klux Klan” name was used by numerous independent local groups opposing the Civil Rights Movement and desegregation, especially in the 1950s and 1960s. During this period, they often forged alliances with Southern police departments, as in Birmingham, Alabama; or with governor’s offices, as with George Wallace of Alabama.”
    Again, still the Democratic South, mind you.

    As well to the “have grown” statement:
    “At its peak in the mid-1920s, the organization claimed to include about 15% of the nation’s eligible population, approximately 4–5 million men.”
    “Today, researchers estimate that there may be 150 Klan chapters with upwards of 5,000 members nationwide.”

    But I digress:
    In all three cases, their goal has ardently been one thing: government power. That’s your real boogeyman. You give the government control; you can’t be surprised that horrific people want, and sometimes gain, its power.

  • Al Cruise

    The Southern Baptist leaders led the charge to endorse Trump on behalf of all conservative evangelicals.

  • $144948586

    Wait wait, what does this have to do with the supremacists?

  • Al Cruise

    “Yup, in the Democratic South.” Who became Southern Baptists.

  • Al Cruise

    White Supremacists in America today were founded by the Southern Baptists.

  • $144948586

    Southern Baptists have about 15 million members; current KKK members (it’s probably safe to assume that there’s hardly many more supremacists) are estimated to be 5,000–certainly not 1 million of them.
    So what does this have to do with white supremacists?

  • $144948586

    And were Democrats while they were alive.

    Edit: I want to make a stronger statement:
    Yet, while Southern Baptists have grown to a mass of some 15 million with multiple ethnicities represented and condemning enslavement, Democrats have not let go of their aim to control government and people.

  • Al Cruise

    So what does this have to do with white supremacists? They were created by the Southern Baptist Theology.

  • $144948586

    But Southern Baptist “Theology” is now accepted by multiple ethnicities and condemns enslavement.
    What does this have to do with giving a voice to white supremacists in 2017?

  • $144948586

    Also, they weren’t created by Southern Baptist Theology. The KKK was founded OUTSIDE of the Southern Baptists.

  • Al Cruise

    “The KKK was founded OUTSIDE of the Southern Baptists.” False , they were founded under the unwritten permission and guidance of Southern Baptist Theology and it’s leaders . Much of it done in the shadows and in secrecy . Being the kind of cowards that they were, they wore white sheets to try and hide their Southern Baptist identity.

  • $144948586
  • $144948586

    Now, why don’t you answer my other response:

    But Southern Baptist “Theology” is now accepted by multiple ethnicities and condemns enslavement.
    What does this have to do with giving a voice to white supremacists in 2017?

  • $144948586

    I think there’s a term for this “Much of it done in the shadows and in secrecy .”
    What is it when you make accusations without providing evidence? Hmm, what is it…Oh yeah, McCarthyism.

  • Al Cruise

    What does this have to do with giving a voice to white supremacists in 2017? The theology of whites being superior to people of color is still taught today in certain circles of Southern Baptists and reinforced with quiet power in the broader arena with actions, especially in politics.

  • $144948586

    “The theology of whites being superior to people of color is still taught today in certain circles of Southern Baptists ”
    Which Southern Baptist circles?

    “reinforced with quiet power in the broader arena with actions, especially in politics.”
    Where is this quiet power that gives support to white supremacists?

  • Al Cruise

    Their private schools created to teach their children history as they see it. I have spoken to many people who attended such schools. Talked to them personally in their Churches. The fact is the white supremacy today is linked to the Southern Baptist Theology, a theology that was crafted for the primary purpose to define whites as superior to people color.

  • $144948586

    “I have spoken to many people who attended such schools.”
    What’s their school’s name?

    “Talked to them personally in their Churches.”
    What’s their church’s names? What’s their name?

    “The fact is the white supremacy today is linked to the Southern Baptist Theology, a theology that was crafted for the primary purpose to define whites as superior to people color.”
    A theology that has adherence from multiple ethnicities and condemns enslavement.
    But, where can I find these theological teachings? What sources?

  • Al Cruise

    “A theology that has adherence from multiple ethnicities and condemns enslavement.” Totally false. Southern Baptist theology was created to insure slavery and enforce the notion of white supremacy that links to today’s white supremacists , KKK, and neo Nazi’s.

  • $144948586

    “Totally false.”
    You deny that blacks, Hispanics, Middle Eastern and Asians are not part of the congregation?

    “Totally false.”
    “Southern Baptist theology was created to insure slavery and enforce the notion of white supremacy that links to today’s white supremacists , KKK, and neo Nazi’s.”
    You deny that the current Southern Baptist have printed this:
    “Be it further RESOLVED, That we lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and we recognize that the racism which yet plagues our culture today is inextricably tied to the past; and
    Be it further RESOLVED, That we apologize to all African-Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27); and
    Be it further RESOLVED, That we ask forgiveness from our African-American brothers and sisters, acknowledging that our own healing is at stake; and
    Be it further RESOLVED, That we hereby commit ourselves to eradicate racism in all its forms from Southern Baptist life and ministry”?
    http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/899/resolution-on-racial-reconciliation-on-the-150th-anniversary-of-the-southern-baptist-convention

    That being said, please answer my former questions. I’ll place it here for you to return to:
    “I have spoken to many people who attended such schools.”
    What’s their school’s name?

    “Talked to them personally in their Churches.”
    What’s their church’s names? What’s their name?

    “The fact is the white supremacy today is linked to the Southern Baptist Theology, a theology that was crafted for the primary purpose to define whites as superior to people color.”
    A theology that has adherence from multiple ethnicities and condemns enslavement.
    But, where can I find these theological teachings? What sources?

  • Al Cruise

    Who founded the Southern Baptist Convention, and why did they do it?

  • $144948586

    Al Cruise, it’s clear why the SBC was founded: a disagreement and (by their own admission) wrong support, or rather non-abolitionist position, for slavery.
    That being said, this group has it IN THEIR STATEMENTS that they were wrong and seek reconciliation and recompense. Failure to accept their position now is not on them, it’s on you for your inability to forgive.

    Now, please answer my questions above. Again I’ll post them.
    “I have spoken to many people who attended such schools.”
    What’s their school’s name?

    “Talked to them personally in their Churches.”
    What’s their church’s names? What’s their name?

    “The fact is the white supremacy today is linked to the Southern Baptist Theology, a theology that was crafted for the primary purpose to define whites as superior to people color.”
    But, where can I find these theological teachings? What sources?

  • Al Cruise

    What year did the SBC allow a black pastor to preach in a white church?

  • $144948586

    Answer my questions and I’ll answer yours.
    I do know that in 2012 they elected their first black preaching conference president, correct?

  • Al Cruise

    No I will not give you names. Southern Baptist theology gave birth to white supremacy and nurses it today. Here is proof , at this years SB convention, a motion to reject white supremacy was rejected by the old white guard. Only after protest did it get tabled. Enough said. I will continue to teach these facts to young people. It is through education that we will win by having future generations reject conservative religious right Theology that peddles in racism. I do not believe in violence or even civil disobedience, it is through education along with critical thinking , that we can eliminate these theologies , to the point where no one can be bothered with them anymore.

  • Guthrum

    Not all evangelical churches are fundamentalist type. Look at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. It’s churches run the gamut from liberal to conservative, while its main leadership is on the liberal slant. I know Catholics who are evangelical. Jim Wallis and some of his group are evangelical. I know many Baptist and other mainline church pastors and members who are not evangelicals.
    Unfortunately some of the news media have pushed this misinformed and false narrative of evangelicals as a conservative political group.
    See “What is an evangelical”.
    Twenty years ago evangelical was a correctly used designation. Now the news media and some politicians have it wrong.

  • Guthrum

    Blame the artists. If it had not been for them there would be no statues.

  • $144948586

    What are the reasons it wasn’t originally tabled?

  • $144948586

    How does Southern Baptist theology nurse Supremacy today in 2017; what Southern Baptist teaching is nursing Supremacy?

  • $144948586

    How loving.

  • Bones

    My family went to war to kill nazis.

    now you guys have them marching in your streets, killing people.

  • Bones

    Only cowards aren’t fighting against nazis…or else they are nazis.

    There is no fence sitting….

    which is why graham is so shameful.

    Let’s remember this was all in response to the Dylan Roof shootings.

  • “Not blaming those responsible”

    That is one things conservatives have harped on for years, slamming Libruls (TM) and their Psychobabble (TM) for allowing people to not take responsibility by blaming it on not having enough Oreo cookies as kids.

    Now…

  • harleygrl

    “Who gave the supremacists a voice?” Fundamental Christians.
    And this is all merely a DISTRACTION.
    A mere DISTRACTION, designed to keep the public from recognizing the exponential rate at which child sexual assaults occur on Protestant Church properties. The three largest Protestant church property insurers report upwards of 260 cases a year of sexual assault of children under the age of 18. That’s about 1 child every 1.5 days, but when you realize that most Protestant churches aren’t even open 7 days a week? Then you understand how many children are sexually assaulted in Protestant churches in a year’s time – and these are just the ones we know about! How about all the cases that were never reported to the church’s property insurance carrier?? It’s documented and verified that sex crimes are the most UNDER-REPORTED type of crime that there is. My source is the Insurance Journal – an insurance industry periodical. Non-partisan. Here is the link: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

  • harleygrl

    I’ll give you more than just one name – I’ll give you NAMES: The Right Reverend W. A. Criswell was pastor of the largest congregation in the Southern Baptist Convention, and one of that denomination’s most popular preachers. And on February 21st, 1956, Reverend Criswell stood before an all-white overflow crowd, in the all-white First Baptist Church of Columbia, South Carolina, and he exhorted the crowd (many of whom were also preachers) to be “true” preachers of the gospel – and as such, to attack the forces of desegregation. He expressed astonishment at the “cowardice of ministers “whose predecessors were martyrs and were burned at the stake for Christ” but they themselves refused to speak up about “this thing of integration.”

    Criswell denounced as “foolishness” and “idiocy” the recent ruling of the Supreme Court that was “meant to ram integration down the collective throat of the South.” Irritated with the “carpet bagging supporters” of civil rights, he exclaimed: “Let them integrate. Let them sit up there in their dirty shirts, and make all their fine speeches. But they are all a bunch of infidels, dying from the neck up.”

    But Criswell saved some of his harshest invectives for the National Council of Churches (asserting, “…half of the things they say are just as blasphemous and unbiblical as they can be.”), and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People – “Why the NAACP has got those East Texans on the run so much,” Criswell sneered, “that they dare not pronounce the word ‘chigger’ any longer. It has to be ‘cheegro’.”

    The bottom line, Criswell argued, was that forced desegregation was fundamentally undemocratic and unchristian; and as denominations who “mutually agree to worship apart.”, so also the black churches, who wanted to be segregated, and they should be allowed to “stick within their group,” “their social stratum,” “their kind.”

    Governor George Bell Timmerman, Jr., a member of the First Baptist Church of Batesburg, South Carolina, and an ardent segregationist, invited Criswell to address the state legislature the next day where Criswell gave the same speech.
    Senator Strom Thurmond introduced Criswell to his fellow South Carolina lawmakers, who passed a resolution asking the United States Attorney General to put the NAACP on the Justice Department’s list of subversives, and to ban NAACP members from public employment

  • harleygrl

    This whole thing comes from a (very mistaken!) Southern Baptist teaching, that after The Great Flood, Ham, a son of Noah, dishonored his father and so was “cursed” with dark skin; ergo, those with dark skin, are “cursed”, “inferior”, etc.
    First off, the premise that “people of skin tone other than white as an indicator of racial or ethnic affiliation first appeared in the Bible” is TOTALLY FALSE. The Bible NEVER uses any skin colors or tones as indicators of racial or ethnic affiliation, and certainly does not use skin color or skin tone to describe which races of people are favored by God, and which races of people are NOT favored by God. So that’s a false teaching and not in the Bible, period.

  • $144948586

    No doubt this is terrible, but are you saying that Supremacy is just a cover for pedophilia?

  • $144948586

    1956

  • $144948586

    What Southern Baptist Church teaches this in 2017?

  • Grace Terry

    Franklin Graham is a disgrace to all Christians, especially to his father Billy Graham, who insisted that all the Billy Graham crusade events be racially integrated WAY BACK in the 1950’s and 1960’s – even crusade events in cities in the deep South that had never allowed integrated public events of any kind. Heaven help us all…

  • Grace Terry

    The Southern Baptists refuse to ordain women, up to this very day…What does that say about them???

  • $144948586

    I don’t think “refuse” is the correct word.

    “The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are rightly addressed to men. However, the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy.”
    http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp

  • Janet Williams

    Talk about destroying the family brand. Franklin has turned the respected name of Graham into a hypocritical joke. And I am sure that Satan enjoys spectacles like Charlottesville,but he doesn’t have to lift a finger to advance his evil cause when you have people like Trump and his minions (yes, you Franklin Graham) fomenting hatred.

  • Grace Terry

    BF&M? Not sure what that might be, but whatever…

    Okay, so now you are splitting hairs with semantics. To me, “…recognizing that offices requiring ordination are rightly addressed to men…” is a refusal to sanction the ordination of women. It is BLATANTLY discriminatory and sexist and and UNLIKE first century Christian church practices, where women were recognized for their leadership gifts and given equal status – even by that wascaly Apostle Paul….So thoughtful egalitarian Christians like, for instance, Jimmy Carter and his home church in Georgia have left the Southern Baptist Convention over this very issue. I suspect that if a local SBC church responsibly and prayerfully searched the Scriptures and established a policy to treat women as equals up to including ordination, they might get the “left foot of Christian fellowship” and get kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention.

  • K Simon

    I think it’s way beyond time to quit referring to him as any kind of spokesperson for the Christian religion. He’s nothing more than a power hungry sycophant for the far right. We all need to reread the Barmen Declaration and take decisive action reclaiming the church of Jesus Christ.

  • $144948586

    “So thoughtful egalitarian Christians like, for instance, Jimmy Carter”
    Who believed in being a governor, explicitly advised against by God in 1 Samuel and by Gideon.

    “is a refusal to sanction the ordination of women. It is BLATANTLY discriminatory and sexist”
    Well, I’m not here to apologize for the Southern Baptists; I’m not one. They appear to have their theological reasons, but don’t actively “refuse” to ordinate women.
    If you don’t like their dogma, then don’t be one. Simple. It doesn’t appear they’re proselytizing others in to belief that women are sub-human. If they were, I wouldn’t expect their congregations to be composed of such a large percentage of women (+50%).
    http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-denomination/southern-baptist-convention/racial-and-ethnic-composition/#gender-composition

  • $144948586

    “I suspect that…”
    Do you know of any place this has happened?

  • Roger Morris

    Trump and Graham are the two sides of the one coin that represents everything that is wrong with American society and the American psyche. On one hand – loud, brash, over-confident, uninterested in knowing and being proud of their ignorance, narcissistic and childish. On the other hand, over-confident in religious and metaphysical opinion, anti-intellectual, anti-science, misogynistic and judgmental.

  • $144948586

    “Okay, so now you are splitting hairs with semantics.”
    For the record, no I’m not. Refuse is not a passive word, but their passive stance (i.e. “this is what we believe. But it’s left to individual churches”) is not refusal. BUT, this action you’ve committed is aggressive and marginalizing. It’s called smearing.

    I believe it has Gandhi who said, “Violence only leads to more violence.” Jesus said, “Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.” And I borrow King’s words to say, “Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” And you’re choosing to take a passive stance and accuse them of doing something actively which is how you create hate. And that’s how you give a voice to supremacy.

  • Bette Moore

    Too many words! We need to learn to simpley LABEL people like Franklin Graham either “hard” or “soft” Dominionists.

    I heard that word for the first time this week … and it brings back memories of marching around the Sunday School room at 5 years old singing “Onward Christian Soldiers.” We were taught to take everything in the King James Bible (Scofield Edition) literally, and now Christianity has been hijacked in this country by Fundamental Evangelicals. As a child I was taught that ONLY Fundamental, Evangelical Christians really knew Jesus. Somewhere along the line I noticed that they dropped the word “Fundamental.” James Dobson and his Evangelical Voting Bloc elected Donald Trump. I don’t hear very much about the 70 Evangelical ministers who are advising him … and very few people seem to know about his meeting with 1000 Evangelical leaders in August 2016 … several of whom have claimed on their blogs that they were the ones who led Trump to Christ. As a “baby Christian” they believe he just needs their advice to grow in Christ.

    The mission of the soft Dominionists is to evangelize the world in order to hasten the return of Christ. That’s when the Rapture will take place and they get to go “home.”. I think that the HARD Dominionists are “Post-Millennial” and believe that the Rapture will happen AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. (Which starts when Christians have taken over all world Governments.

    Those are my thoughts based on my 70 years of life – starting in the Cradle Roll at Lake Ave. Congregational Church in Pasadena, California.) I would LOVE to talk to others who “grew up born again” … but I’ve never found any willing to talk about this … :-(

  • Digitali

    You seem to be picking a lot of nits here.
    I’d actually be more interested in YOUR views on white supremacy.

  • It’s truly mind boggling and appalling, indeed. My head is also about to explode.

  • Yes, we mustn’t upset the White folk. Imagine Graham’s response if it had been hundreds of Black people marching. Oh, wait, he did remark on the Black Lives Matter movement by stating “all lives matter.” So with folks like Graham the key is to downplay the legitimacy of marginalized groups and emphasize the legitimacy of majority groups like…good ‘ol honest White folk!

  • Can an atheist like me say, “Amen!”?

  • $144948586

    What are nits?
    My view: White supremacy is a stupid concept and immoral. I find it as reprehensible as black supremacy and progressive supremacy.

  • louisquinze

    In what way does Mr Graham demonstrate his ‘fulness of the stature of Christ’ ? Difficult to see in this web of obfuscation.

  • Ulf Turkewitsch

    You cannot believe most of what Graham says or writes. He has no common sense and no wisdom. Stick to the pure gospel Franklin, you are an under developed naive child . Don’t speak on what you don’t know.

  • Bones

    I wonder if Robert E Lee would have supported the Nazis????

    Consider that Robert E Lee declined to contribute to a statue for his friend Stonewall Jackson and other confederate monuments as he thought they prolonged the divisions and bitterness of the civil war.

    “In a 1866 letter to fellow Confederate Gen. Thomas L. Rosser, Lee wrote, “As regards the erection of such a monument (sic – Stonewall Jackson) as is contemplated, my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt … would have the effect of … continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.”

    Three years later, Lee was invited to a meeting of Union and Confederate officers to mark the placing of a memorial honoring those who took part in the battle of Gettysburg.

    “I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered,” he wrote in a letter declining the invitation.

    “All I think that can now be done,” he wrote in 1866, “is … to protect the graves [and] mark the last resting places of those who have fallen…””

    https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www…es/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments

    Lee wouldn’t want statues of himself being used by nazis.

    So Graham would blame Lee as well.

    Gee Robert E Lee comes across as all class unlike Graham who comes across as an arse..

  • Bones

    Of course we have this gem from the Commander in Chief

    Reporter: Should statues of Robert E. Lee stay up?

    Trump: I would say that’s up to a local town, community, or the federal government depending on where it is located.

    Which is what has been happening…..

    Fmd you’re a goose, Graham.

    Stick to getting rich off poor kids, you disgusting merkin.

  • pooh

    Sanitizing history will not make the bad things about it go away with that way of thinking you might as well tear down every statue the Bible says no idols right? I am a child Of a Holocaust survivor and I tell you leave them up as a reminder of our past mistakes and how we can learn from them..

  • J’amie

    You make an intriguing point about the “Post-Millennial” thing. My parents, especially mother, skew fundamental evangelicalism ((strongly influenced by non-denominational Pentecostalism) starting in the early 90s. Before that my father was raised Catholic from the cradle, my grandmother is still practicing, and my mother’s early life was Baptist before her mother moved to Word of Faith which also strongly influences my mother to this day and what pushed her toward my childhood church, which as I said was non-denom, legalistic evangelicalism with enough of the name it and claim it and charismatic leaning to appeal to her Word of Faith leanings. The point being after that anecdote, I’ve noticed that the more fundamentalist she became, the more inclined she became to believe in a Post-Millennial rapture. I recall when she first started toward that belief it led to really loud arguments between her and my father who adamantly believes in the first school of thought: evangelize the world and Christ will return. He believes that all we’re seeing right now is proof it’s about to happen – and that it has to happen before 2020-something based on something Lester Sumrall taught, while my mother as far as I can ascertain (which, caveat because our relationship has been fractured a good deal since my leaving Evangelicalism) is starting to believe it may not happen for several more years because of the Post teachings.

  • Paula Champion Jones

    But WHO can we blame Franklin Graham on?

  • Bette Moore

    You’re right .. and my question is what are the “non-fundamental/dominionist” Evangelical churches doing to correct the record?

  • yeehaw

    @Pooh…That’s easy for you to say, we don’t have statutes of Hitler and his regime dotting the American landscape! I bet you would feel very different if America had over 700 reminders of the atrocities of how one human could treat another human! I don’t need to learn about the mistakes of the Nazi’s by seeing their statutes everywhere…I’d rather pick up a history book and read about it!!

  • Bette Moore

    Thank you, J’aime. I remember even as a child the “pre/post” arguments … and now I see what that was all about. Back then it seemed like just an interesting discussion … but now I see that you’re going to live your life in an entirely different way depending upon when you believe the Rapture will take place! Both sides look at the current political situation as “proving” the end of the world is near … but what to DO about that is quite different. I’ve never really thought of that before, but it’s crucial to understand if if rational Christians are going to be able to reclaim the church.

    I am just learning how to use Discus and I’m happy to find people on-line who understand all of this. I’ve “followed” you and want to talk more about how to talk to Dispensationalists. That’s another word I never heard until recently … and was the first on-line discussion I had on this same blog.

  • Guthrum

    They are preaching and teaching the Gospel.

  • Matthew

    Should the anti-facists use violence against the neo-nazis? Would Jesus?

  • WalterSmirth

    I feel confirmed in my decision to stop contributing to Samaritan’s Purse and the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. There are many other fine organizations who are not led by a buffoon like Franklin Graham who “earns” a million dollar a year and who escapes to his private estate in Alaska in his private airplane.

  • harleygrl

    The Jews used violence against the neo-Nazis. Whether Jesus would, I do not know – but Jesus possessed special powers the rest of us do not have, so I’m going to go on the presumption that Jesus would WANT US to do, whatever we have to do, in order to save the Lost Sheep of Israel.

  • harleygrl

    I remember that. Billy Graham’s insistence that his crusade events be “desegregated” at first did not sit well with fundamentalist Southern Baptists, but eventually he won them over.
    If anyone could win them over, Billy Graham could.
    There truly was never a man like him, ever.
    Him, and Pastor David Wilkerson, who founded Teen Challenge ministries and saved countless thousands of young men and women from drugs, prostitution, street gangs, and human trafficking.
    Two very great and very humble men.
    I only met in person, one of them – and although his personality was charismatic, it wasn’t overpowering, and Brother David was as humble as could be. You couldn’t help but love him, the minute you met him. Brother David could tell anyone The Truth – and they would take it from him as The Truth, when they might not, from anyone else.
    Billy Graham brushed up against all manner of great wealth and power – and yet in his heart he was still just God’s servant.

  • Digitali

    Nits as in nitpicking. Like questioning every point in a discussion rather than refuting them. It’s generally another form of deflection employed to avoid discussion. As to your references to black supremacy and progressive supremacy, neither of those is actually a thing, so it’s difficult to imagine how they might be “reprehensible” to you, or anyone.

  • Digitali

    Correct me if I’m off-base here, but weren’t all the people in the part of the world where the Bible was assembled of a darker skin tone than most lily-white southern Baptists anyway.

  • harleygrl

    “No doubt this is terrible”. You make me laugh.

    Yeah, Josh. “No doubt.”

    I’m saying today’s Church is frantically running from pillar to post, using politicized “smoke-screens”, Target unisex bathrooms, abortion, employers who do “God’s work” by denying their workers birth control, and etc., etc., etc., as distractions from their own very real internal problem – child sexual abuse in the Protestant Church.

    In 2012, an investigation at Bob Jones University, known as the “fortress of fundamentalism,” revealed that the school had systematically covered up allegations of sexual assault and counseled victims to forgive their attackers.

    Sovereign Grace, a network of “neo-Calvinist” churches, has been facing multiple allegations of child molestation and sexual abuse.

    In 2014, a New Republic investigation found that school officials at Patrick Henry College, a popular destination for Christian homeschoolers, had routinely responded to rape and harassment claims by treating perpetrators with impunity, discouraging women from going to the police, and blaming them for dressing immodestly.

    Doug Phillips, a prominent leader of the Christian homeschooling movement, was forced to step down in 2013 from his nationwide ministry, Vision Forum, after he was sued by a former nanny who claimed he groomed her as a teenager to be his “personal sex object.”

    The following year, Bill Gothard, founder of the influential Institute in Basic Life Principles, resigned amid more than 30 allegations of sexual harassment and molestation by former staffers, interns, and volunteers.

    Like Catholics, fundamentalists preach strict obedience to religious authority. Sex is not only prohibited outside of marriage, but rarely discussed. And overlapping dynamics of silence, and “submission” make conservative Christians a ripe target for sexual predators.

    As one convicted child abuser tells clinical psychologist Anna Salter in her book Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders, “Church people are the easiest to fool.”

    “Protestants have responded much worse than the Catholics to this issue,” says Boz Tchividjian, a former child sex-abuse prosecutor who is the grandson of legendary evangelist Billy Graham.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/142999/silence-lambs-protestants-concealing-catholic-size-sexual-abuse-scandal

  • harleygrl
  • Digitali

    “…peace between Christian camps…”

    Seriously? The problem is that there ARE Christian “camps” in the first place. “Christians” can’t even agree on the message delivered by their messiah. No wonder they can’t agree on racial equality.

  • Digitali

    I notice much discussion here about putting these mega-churches out of business, but I wonder how many have noticed the movement to allow them to financially support political candidates, while maintaining their tax-exempt status. Trump and his yahoo cohort present many dangers beyond the obvious ones.

  • harleygrl

    Well here’s the thing about political parties, Josh. They’re coalitions, not monoliths. They are comprised of people – and those people shape those organizations through their beliefs, statements, and actions.
    The Democrats could suddenly call themselves Republicans tomorrow, and the Republicans could call themselves Democrats.
    And if all the same people stay situationally affiliated, professing the same beliefs they always have, it would effect no meaningful change.

    In other words, Josh……
    Potato, Poh-tah-toh.

  • Grace Terry

    And you don’t think the Republicans want to control government and control people??????

  • $144948586

    I never said I supported the Republicans. They’re both statist.
    I should also add: Unlike them, I don’t want to control anyone.

  • $144948586

    How can I refute something whenever the original poster just makes a blanket statement and I want to get details so I asked questions? That isn’t nitpicking, unless my picking that apart is what you call nitpicking in which case that’s called refuting.

    That’s not a thing? Oh I must have missed that whenever I look up black Supremacy on Google or icy replacement theology spreading, or when Progressive have the president sign a bill that makes people by an insurance product pretending that that is somehow a moral high card. That’s by definition enslavement.

  • Bones

    There were many Christians like Dr Cornel West who were practising non-violent resistance. the violence stuff is just falling into the right’s hands and they are using it to fuel propaganda.

    Which is exactly the same as 1920s Germany,

    And I had family who fought against them. I seem to recall ww2.

    What would you do if Nazis marched up your street, shouting out against Jews, gays, blacks….oh yeah you’re in Germany.

    Tell us what happens if neo-nazis marched in Germany.

  • Bette Moore

    Do you think that Christian churches who do not support Dominion Theology have a responsibility to preach against it? What bothers me is that in 70 years of going to Christian Churches I have never heard of this abomination … (and I don’t think that’s too strong a word …

  • Bette Moore

    BTW … I love Jim Wallis and read Sojourners Magazine. I fully expect that they will address this issue …. (I hope ..)

  • Matthew

    Good point. It saddens me.

  • Matthew

    I hear you Bones. I just seems, though, that any act of violence (even something as little as a push) was used against the anti-facists by the alt-right as propaganda. I think you are correct, that said:

    I´m wondering what our pacifist brethren think about this? Also …

    There are greater restrictions on freedom of speech (I think) in general in Europe than in America, especially in Germany with regard to anything associated with national socialism. I´m wondering if the events in Charlottesville will spark a discussion about freedom of speech in America. Does it ever cross the line?

    I mean I grew up in America being taught that although we have freedom of speech in the U.S., that doesn´t mean you can stand up in a crowded theater and yell “FIRE!” if there is no fire. I´m wondering, now, if the neo-nazis are the ones in the crowded theater yelling “FIRE!” when there isn´t one? Should there be limits on freedom of speech in America?

  • Matthew

    Thanks harleygrl. Like I asked Bones, I´m wondering what our pacifist brethren have to say about the use of violence against neo-nazis for example.

  • $144948586

    Agreed, but I still don’t see how the Southern Baptists are giving a voice to the Supremacists (let alone giving voice to a Supremacist political party).

  • $144948586

    Excuse me, but who is the one raising these issues of “unisex bathrooms, abortion, denying their workers birth control” first? Political Action Groups or the Church?

    As well, it’s untruthful to state that they’re denying their workers birth control. You shouldn’t lie harleygrl if you want to actually change a person’s mind.
    You should also not speak as though there is some morality in forcing a privately owned company (and, through that, individual owners) to cover things they might deem immoral.
    You should also not speak as though there is some morality in forcing persons to purchase something at all, let alone something they don’t want (a crappy insurance–which it’s not even insurance, it’s an entitlement like social security–, product to avoid being vague). To that end, I will argue (probably along with you, if you’re left-leaning) that taxes are immoral (I’d argue all the time, but) PARTICULARLY when they’re used for military spending.

  • Digitali

    Me too…

  • Bones

    You haven’t been to Germany.

  • Bones

    Who are these ‘Jews’?

  • Bones

    June 30, 2014

    “In one of the most closely watched cases of the year, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Monday that American business owners with religious objections may deny contraceptive coverage as part of universal employee health insurance now required by law.”

    They are denying their workers’ birth control. It’s you that’s lying.

    It shows how stupid your country is that companies and churches control their employees’ ‘morality’ by imposing on them their company’s own moral agenda via health insurance.

    That’s the dumbest system out.

  • Bones

    I’m not a pacifist BTW.

    I have no problems with using violence defending yourself and others.

  • Bones

    Facts are irrelevant to racists.

    Apparently Noah and his family were whites except for the cursed one.

  • Bones

    Southern Baptists and the Role of Women
    Wives Must Submit to Husbands

    “One issue that has been great fodder for critics of the Southern Baptist Convention has been their attitudes toward and treatment of women. In the 1998 convention they revised the Baptist Faith and Message to state that wives must submit to their husbands. In 2000, they passed rules to prevent women from serving as pastor. This has put them out of step with most Protestant denominations.”

    Overwhelmingly rejected were two other amendments that called upon husbands and wives to submit to each other and that would have included widows, widowers, and single persons as expressions of “family.” Evidently, Baptist men didn’t like the idea of making any sort of gesture of submission to their wives.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/southern-baptists-and-the-role-of-women-248606

    BTW 50% of Muslims are women….

  • Matthew

    Thanks Bones.

  • WingedBeast

    So, according to Franklin Graham, the blame goes to those who voted to take down the monuments… because they should have known how the terrorists would respond and let them win?

    Because, it’s not like those calling themselves Neonazis are, you know, responsible for their own damn choices?

  • Bones

    “So what does this have to do with white supremacists?”

    They seem to have an issue with it….

    From 2 months ago

    A Resolution Condemning White Supremacy Causes Chaos at the Southern Baptist Convention

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-southern-baptist-convention-alt-right-white-supremacy/530244/

    And it failed…..

    “Jackie Hill Perry, a black artist and teacher who has frequently spoken at Southern Baptist events, tweeted that “the decision made at #SBC17 to not denounce white supremacy is hurtful.” Trillia Newbell, a black staffer at the denomination’s Ethics and Religious Commission in Washington, replied, “I’m seriously in tears. What’s going on?!”

    “I certainly understand that hurt and anger, because to most people, this would be a no-brainer,” said McKissic in an interview on Wednesday. “Several of the resolutions they endorsed yesterday were just carte blanche things Southern Baptists believe. And so, it becomes a mystery how you can so easily affirm standard beliefs about other things, but we get to white supremacy … and all of a sudden, we’ve got a problem here.””

  • Bones

    “I don’t think “refuse” is the correct word.”

    Try ‘prevent’.

  • Bones

    2017 – Resolution at SBC condemning white supremacy fails…..

  • $144948586

    No they’re not; there simply not offering it as an option of coverage. Besides, except in the case of rape, contraceptive measure are not really insurance. How about companies just not provide health insurance? That’s not denying insurance any more than my company “denying” me Disney World tickets.

    For workers that disagree, why not just go work elsewhere?

  • $144948586

    “In 2000, they passed rules to prevent women from serving as pastor.”
    Except I previously posted the link that shows their stance is that it’s up to local churches.

  • $144948586

    I don’t see any resolutions in regards to black supremacy or replacement theology or antifa or blm violence, either.

  • $144948586

    Nope, still not good enough.

  • $144948586

    I don’t see any resolutions in regards to black supremacy or replacement theology or antifa or blm violence, either.

  • kaydenpat

    Franklin Graham is a great advocate for why compassionate people shouldn’t be Evangelicals. His theology is solely based on defending extreme Rightwing politics and has little to do with the Gospel. Not surprising at all that he attempts to whitewash the Nazi/White Supremacist violence in Charlottesville since he pretty much echoes Trump’s words from last Tuesday.

  • Al Cruise

    Ask Micheal Smith.

  • Al Cruise

    Ask Michael Smith.

  • Digitali

    It’s really sad, and infuriating, that such a large number of people in the 21st century still believe Jesus was a WASP. It wouldn’t surprise me if there were portrayals of Christ as a blue-eyed blonde in some of these folks’ homes. (Perhaps carrying a surf board, with sunglasses on top of his head.)

  • Bones

    I wasn’t aware the sbc were connected with any of those groups.

  • Bones

    Still nit picking as usual.

    Can a woman be a pastor in the sbc?

    No.

  • Digitali

    What point are you trying to make here? Are you comparing the white supremacist movement, which is a real threat, to a fringe movement that merely puts forth a philosophy, and doesn’t march or incite to riot, or call for racial genocide. Also, for every black supremacist there are probably fifty or more of his opposite number. That’s why I say that it’s not really a thing.

    To take a page from your book, exactly where do you see replacement theology spreading? And how do you figure progressives got the President to sign a bill that was anything but progressive? I assume you’re speaking of the ACA, which was modeled largely after Romney Care, which in turn was modeled after a plan originally drafted by the American Enterprise Institute. Do you have any actual examples of your alleged “progressive supremacy?”

  • Digitali
  • $144948586

    If the local church decides.

  • $144948586

    But you see them connected with white supremacy?

  • $144948586

    I’m asking you.

  • $144948586

    I asked you.

  • $144948586

    I’ll be glad to respond when I get a response for:

    “How does Southern Baptist theology nurse Supremacy today in 2017; what Southern Baptist teaching is nursing Supremacy?”

    But do you have a source for this?
    “for every black supremacist there are probably fifty or more of his opposite number.”

  • $144948586

    Btw, I don’t like any statist action which Romney and Obama and Bush and Clinton and Reagan are/were. Thank you for admitting that they weren’t progressive–except that it is progressive…it just isn’t liberal.

  • Al Cruise

    Here’s my final answer , I think you are white supremacist or at the very least a white supremacist sympathizer.

  • Digitali

    “Thank you for admitting that they weren’t progressive–except that it is progressive..”

    Huh?

  • $144948586

    There ya go, Al Cruise. Called out because you’re full of bias, hate, and put forth unsubstantiated claims, so you resort to ad hominem attacks.

    How loving. I pray you drop you’re pride; honestly.

    Peace and love, Al Cruise.

  • $144948586

    “And how do you figure progressives got the President to sign a bill that was anything but progressive?”
    This implies that the President signed a non-progressive bill.

  • Al Cruise

    Also I want to thank you for all your discourse with everyone on this blog. I will use it in my discussions with young people, it will help many to reject conservative religious beliefs.

  • Digitali

    Firstly, whether or not Southern Baptist theology nurses any kind of supremacy seemingly matters to no one except, apparently, you, so I’ll leave it to someone else to answer that. I never made that assertion in the first place.

    Secondly, my quote that you cited, in case you didn’t notice, included the modifier, “probably,” so if you dispute it, the burden to prove it untrue rests with you. It’s a supposition I can stand by until someone demonstrates that it isn’t so. If you’d like to be that someone, have at it, but simply asking for proof is by no means a refutation. Which goes back to your assertion that:

    “That isn’t nitpicking, unless my picking that apart is what you call nitpicking in which case that’s called refuting.”

    Refuting would be you providing proof that the assertion is untrue, not demanding that the person making it proves it true.
    You don’t stand accused of anything, so there can be no presumption of innocence as in a criminal court. This is a debate not a trial.

  • Digitali

    Okay, then why would progressives want him to sign it? You are so confused.

  • $144948586

    .Lol, but you don’t know I’m a “conservative religious” person.

  • $144948586

    “Firstly, whether or not Southern Baptist theology nurses any kind of

    supremacy seemingly matters to no one except, apparently, you, so I’ll
    leave it to someone else to answer that. I never made that assertion in
    the first place.”
    This is where the conversation began.

    “It’s a supposition I can stand by until someone demonstrates that it isn’t so.”

    No, it’s an unsubstantiated claim. It just colors the situation as worse than it may be or not worse enough. Burden of proof is on you.

    “Refuting would be you providing proof that the assertion is untrue, not demanding that the person making it proves it true.”
    To this, you’re correct. I concede.
    But, he colored a situation with unsubstantiated claims. Like you.
    And like I ask of you, I requested proof.

  • $144948586

    Progressives want state action. Like forcing people to buy a product or pay taxes (a mandate). This is enslavement and anti-liberal. That’s why they got Obama to sign it, because they’re statists. And so are both major parties.

    “You are so confused.”
    Stop with the ad hominem.

  • Al Cruise

    Doesn’t matter, your words in the responses on this blog will suffice well enough. Along with all the white evangelical leaders , many who are SBC, on Trump’s religious advisory board. Their lack of words has crossed a point of no return. It’s going to make great truth telling teaching material .

  • I’m not a fan of Franklin Graham, but I found nothing objectionable in the Franklin Graham quote Mr. Corey provided here. What I did find were several paraphrases, or should I say, made-up-out-of-wholecloth premises that I couldn’t find anywhere in Graham’s quote.

    Corey writes, “Condemn the governor. Condemn the local leaders. Condemn the people who voted to remove the racist monument without considering it might hurt the feelings of racists. Condemn everyone, except for the people who did it and the white nationalistic ideology that is behind it.”

    In the quote above, Graham is arguing against the notion that POTUS is somehow responsible for the attacks. So, you see, what Corey is complaining about — that Graham isn’t pointing his finger at the ACTUAL PERPETRATORS — doesn’t really wash, because the finger-pointing has already been started far and wide. Graham actually reels it back toward the rational when he points out that, if we put any blame on anyone (OTHER THAN THE PERPETRATORS), it should be the governor and the local leaders. This isn’t even controversial; it’s common sense.

    Corey descends into hysteria in the last two sentences quoted above. His reference to a “racist monument” is a throwaway line. I’m all ears, Mr. Corey. Show me the operational definition of racism you’re going by and how Graham crossed the line, and we’ll be square. Until then, talk is cheap. You can do the name-calling routing all day long, but you’ve lost your credibility with those who know — and care — what real discourse looks like. And then, Corey delivers the show-stopper when he says we must blame the “white nationalistic ideology” behind the attacks. Now we’re reaching beyond the perpetrators, beyond the local and state leaders, beyond POTUS, to some shadowy ideology that is somehow exerting such gargantuan control over current events. It really boggles the mind.

    It’s as Graham said: “Really, this boils down to evil in people’s hearts.” That’s where we all need to start. But it is unquestionably more fun to find fault with others.

  • $144948586

    I am probably more liberal in theology than Benjamin Corey–I think government intervention is evil. Get it?

    “Their lack of words has crossed a point of no return.”
    I’m glad their silence means more to you than enslaving people by making them purchase a product–it’s no different then taxing for military spending.

    I’m also surprised you can turn a blind eye to the obvious violence of leftist groups that’s been going on years longer than recent supremacy movements. Why not seek to call those out as well?

  • Digitali

    One more time… I made a supposition, and if you choose to disbelieve it that’s fine. I really don’t care one way or the other. You may attempt to prove it false or ignore it. I never claimed it to be a fact in the first place. My original post was speaking to your apparent debate tactic of questioning the factuality of assertions rather than the assertions themselves. I’ll stand by that. You should understand the difference between a claim and a supposition. The former requires proof, the latter does not.

  • $144948586

    So you’re willing to risk misrepresenting facts by making unsubstantiated assertions like “Southern Baptists giving a voice to supremacy” or “black supremacists are 1/5 or 1/20 of those white supremacists”?

    That’s called dishonesty.

  • Digitali

    No ad hominem there. Not an attack, just an observation. If we establish that the ACA was not progressive in nature why would progressives (your term) want it signed into law? Then you further cloud the issue with sweeping generalizations and your own definition of what progressive positions are. You are, by the definitions I understand, confusing progressivism with socialism and Marxism. None of these is an all encompassing dogma.

  • Digitali

    I’m beginning to think you’re pulling my chain, so I’m going now.

  • $144948586

    “your apparent debate tactic of questioning the factuality of assertions rather than the assertions themselves.”
    What the hell does this mean? If the assertion isn’t fact, then what’s the point in debating it? It just serves to misrepresent others.

  • $144948586

    Digitali,

    You’re characterizing people without any substantiated information to make such a characterization. It’s dishonest.

  • $144948586

    I said it was progressive in nature, it wasn’t liberal.
    Progressives are the ones who felt health INSURANCE is a right that everyone deserves. So they utilized government to force people who don’t want insurance to buy it.
    Progressivism is encompassed within socialism.

  • $144948586

    When I made that claim about this act not being progressive, I was using your definition WHICH I’M SURE is progressive = liberal. What I was saying is that this act isn’t liberal; it IS progressive.

    Sorry for the confusion.

  • $144948586

    I got it; you now realize that saying, “Those people are the cause of all of our problems.” Is not a claim which you should just be able to say “I never claimed it to be a fact in the first place.”

    Such a claim above is no different than the unsupported claim of “for every black supremacist there are probably fifty or more of his opposite number.”

    If it’s not proven (or worse, false), you should have never said it in the first place, and you should apologize for it.

  • Digitali

    You still don’t get it.

    “Those people are the cause of all of our problems.” — Statement of fact, untrue but a claim nonetheless.

    “for every black supremacist there are probably fifty or more of his opposite number.” — A supposition. There could be ten, twenty, thirty, possibly a hundred, possibly only one. It is very likely, based on visibility alone, that the number is closer to fifty, hence my saying “probably.’ AND why I said in the first place that it’s not really a thing, it’s insignificant as a movement, if it exists at all.

    I was right in the first place. You ARE a nitpicker. See ya’…

  • Bones

    In other words it’s everyone else’s fault but the nazis.

    That was the point.

    You know you’re pretty f###ed when you’re defending nazis.

    Lol at hurting the poor feelings of nazis and racists…

    Cry me a river…..

    BTW the whole statue thing is part of whats known as the Lost Cause.

    A revisionism of the civil war making it not about slavery but honour.

    This in places like Durham County where blacks were lynched and the klan was growing.

  • Bones

    Do you know nothing about history……

  • Bones

    Lol..they’re denying it to their employees.

    Ffs since when do companies and churches interfere in the private lives of their employees.

    It’s weird that a libertarian would support employers oing that but then i’m used to hypocrisy from people like yourself.

    That’s why your system is completely and utterly f###ed.

  • Neo-Nazis, skinheads and similar freaks constitute only a tiny portion of the population today. But you should know about Nazism. Hitler was a lot like modem liberals. He’s a regular mentor for you all.

  • Herm

    Oh, sacred source of inspiration for a creative artist, you have proved, once again, that even grammatically correct criticism is dung cheap. In your false equivalency of musing you, too, demonstrate that words can incite evil to surface, as has President Trump throughout his election cycle, within his most trusted advisers, and in nearly every tweet . You, too, would blame today’s elected politicians for finally removing those symbols of celebration for the cause of mankind’s enslavement of their own. You, too, imply that the evil is that we just can’t all get along. You would blame those standing up against the “white nationalistic ideology” (by any name of self centered me and mine before all others mentality) as part of the problem rather than the only way that this evil stops here, now. You would feed the same frenzy to protect our own at the cost of all else that 620,000 soldiers died for so as to reenact the civil war for real this time. Your words are worse than cheap, as are our President’s, they incite to destroy for the cause of separatism from the body of Man rather than uniting all of our species with equal empathy, compassion and forgiveness for all. The only true evil here are those who would support the ideology of the white nationalists rather than stand up to it, face to face, toe to toe, and say not in our house you don’t.

  • Herm

    That is the most unstudied, illiterate, inciting and satanic response to the likes of Nazism I have read on this blog. Each person is different in our population today. Each person person is individually the smallest portion of our population today. Each person can promote through hope to grow or subjugate through fear to destroy. It only takes one person, with very little support of others, to destroy a federal building and murder 168 people indiscriminately for the cause of “Neo-Nazis, skinheads and similar freaks”. The face of white nationalism has surfaced from behind the cloak of white sheets only because they have been empowered by the populism drawn to the propaganda of close our borders (physically, socially, and financially) to all risk so that we may be safe from those evil refugee others whether they be Muslim, Hispanic, Indian, African or … . Fortunately the USA is only a tiny portion of the world’s population today.

  • Think about it. Hitler assumed he had the moral high ground (which progressives do as well) and based on that assumption, he trampled German law, history and culture to accomplish his ends. Liberals are doing the same things today. He exterminated unwanted people. He used ovens, American liberals use scalpels. Hitler used mass indoctrination, which progressives are doing today, as the heavy – handed majority in “cultural elite” positions — teachers, college professors, judges and bureaucrats. Liberals own America today. I’m sorry you drank the Kool-Aid too.

  • It’s not white nationalists that scare me. They’re a dying breed. It’s the liberal insanity that has taken over this nation.

  • Hmmmmmm. Thought you were talking about progressives there. You were, weren’t you? Dead-on description of American liberalism.

  • Herm

    Think about it. Hitler was an isolationist who came to power only because it took a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. There was a real fear that he played upon. The only fear we have today, that is not trumped up, is that we are losing the good life that we’ve enjoyed since the new deal. Who notices that this is only true because we have systematically allowed to be removed the social and economic safe guards that made us nationally affluent for the first time in our history, put in place in the late 40′ and early 50’s? The prior oligarchy (the oil, railroad, and many other baron’s) had lost their power.

    Today, the gun manufacturers (NRA), the Koch Brothers (and like), as well as the sanctimonious “Christian Right” are back in power. All our social and economically equalizing safeguards, like the labor unions as only one example, have been eroded.

    Long story short, at the end of WWII we knew to invest in all nations of the world, and all our people, so that none, if possible, were left requiring a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread (which we didn’t do in Syria early in their devastating drought). All our safeguards began eroding when a southern president decided enough was enough and proceeded to make it a law that the negro blood was to be recognized equally as human as all other blood within the body of mankind. White supremacy rose it’s ugly head swearing never again to support the socialism of the new deal. That’s just a taste of where we have come from when things were actually getting better for all the world, following the depression and WWII (Nazi segregationist spirit), that came to an end most recently because too many have planted the seed of an illegitimate black president and the reality that white is becoming the minority.

  • I love this!!
    //The only true evil here are those who would support the ideology of the white nationalists rather than stand up to it, face to face, toe to toe, and say not in our house you don’t.//

    Here are some great quotes from Morgan Guyton’s blog that I think are relevant to this discussion:
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mercynotsacrifice/2017/08/18/dont-believe-punching-nazis/#disqus_thread

    //Because of the postmodern tendency to use every debate to categorically invalidate the other side, the reflex of progressives is to treat any critique of anti-fascist tactics as just another form of “whataboutism” or #ManySides….
    But movements that have lost the space to self-critique and disagree internally have become totalitarian whether they’re fighting for beautiful ideals or not.//

  • Can you give some examples of what you consider to be liberal insanity?

  • Who is your mentor?

  • Herm do you ever get the feeling that The action, attitude, and demeanor of the Sanctified Muse, among others, is stuck in their binary, US versus them distress patterns? It seems Any attempts at civil conversation that involves critiquing or correction from us is taken as an insult and triggers uncivil, aggressive, abusive behavior. I think Is it because, to put it in terms of reevaluation counseling,
    (https://www.rc.org/page/pt84_03_hj)
    //emergence of material [from a past trauma Acts] as an occlusion against the selfinvalidation?

    The distress pattern, in its very nature is a rigid, unthinking, inflexible entity…the pattern appears as a mask of the person…//

    I think one can slip into the mistake of arguing with the pattern. I have observed that the pattern tends to make the person one-dimensional and cartoonish. Almost as if the person’s reactions and Behavior, stuck in their distress pattern, becomes predictable and interchangeable with those who are similarly afflicted. Every time I run into this phenomenon it’s like it’s the same person with a different name. I think the pattern might have some Demonic Dimension to it. I have experienced anger coming from these folks being something more positive than the denial and numbness they are in. I try to find creative ways to contradict this pattern as a means of moving the conversation with such forward. I realize that this is a manipulation that might be considered improper or immoral to them. Moving out of denial into anger is a movement on the path towards grieving the loss of one’s past allegiance to necropolitics, I think, by contradicting it.
    If one knows what’s going on, in effect, one sees through the game and no longer treats the pattern as if it were a flexible, human entity.

  • $144948586

    How is insurance solely a person’s “private life”? Health insurance (except for government intervention like universal coverage) is a voluntary agreement among multiple people to cover medical costs for catastrophic expenses. If a person demands such contraceptive coverage, why shouldn’t the other person have the right to deny supplementing that? It’s not like they’re denying coverage to that person anymore than you denying me Disney World tickets if you said, “No, I’m not going to make payments toward your Disney World tickets.”; they’re just denying their role in covering it, and I don’t say that you are denying me Disney World ticket coverage.

    “It’s weird that a libertarian would support employers oing that”
    Employers aren’t denying coverage–after all, the government pretty much ruled as such (since you like government so much). What is not liberal, what is enslavement, is to force other employees to supplement something they find immoral…like contraception.
    Besides, employers (aka companies, aka the owner’s company) shouldn’t be obligated to provide coverage anyway. They pay the majority of insurance premiums anyway, and, really, that’s just a payment that comes from the owner’s would-be profits. So really forcing coverage is really enslavement of the owner.

  • $144948586

    “Statement of fact, untrue but a claim nonetheless.”
    Ugh, no it’s not Digitali. It’s a claim, a statement, a supposition. It’s only a statement of fact if it is a fact.

    Both claims I put forth (the one I made and the one you made) are the same: they’re BASELESS suppositions.

    They are not constructive to the conversation, and you can tell when you read mine: my statement colors ‘those people’ with a bad view. Yours does the same: it makes white supremacists much more of a perceived threat than these others without offering any support for your statement.

    The only reason you’re willing to make that claim is because the others aren’t in the news with much prevalence. Other than that, you have no other support–and the above is not support; it’s just an observation of what’s in the news.

  • $144948586

    I guess not; I guess I can’t see how a multicultural/multirace/heterogenous SBC contributes to white supremacy or has given them a voice in 2017 or is sexist when 50+% are women.

    You’re welcome to enlighten me.

  • Bones

    More lies….Hitler hated liberals.

    Aren’t these liberals, those reprobate defenders of individualism, ashamed to see the tears of the mothers and wives, or don’t these cold-blooded accountants even notice? Have they already grown so inhuman that they are no longer capable of feeling? It is understandable why bolshevism simply removed such creatures. They were worthless to humanity, nothing but an encumbrance to their Volk. Even the bees get rid of the drones when they can no longer be of service to the hive. The Bolshevik procedures are thus quite natural.

    Quote from Hitler according to Otto Wagener, in Hitler—Memoirs of a Confidant, editor, Henry Ashby Turner, Jr., Yale University Press (1985) pp.16-17

    He sounds a lot like you.

    And we all know Hitler was a social conservative.

  • Lawlessness — liberals advocate defying federal authorities with sanctuary cities and circumventing other border security policies. This is mad even if it weren’t lawless. No nation has ever survived without guarding its border; Abortion — a barbaric practice if there ever was one, a mass extermination for convenience that we delude ourselves is okay because the kid is still in its mother’s womb; Transgenderism — a delusion that ignores science and reason and makes the “rights” of a tiny percentage of our population more important than everyone else’s rights, especially underage girls who have to contend with predators when they use public restrooms. There’s a lot more where those came from.

  • Hitler was a liberal, though not a social liberal. Conservatism is about safeguarding the old ways, customs & traditions. Hitler changed the entire government and the culture because he thought he was doing right and could make his own laws. Western liberals are doing the same thing. And liberals are full of false compassion. That’s why standard liberal stance is to have the government take care of the poor so they don’t have to. Look it up and you’ll find that conservatives give more of their own private means to help less fortunate people than do liberals.

  • Jesus.

  • @charlesburchfield, I am human like everyone else. There are people on these blogs who are fundamentally dishonest and argue for the sake of arguing, nipping at your flanks until you’re out of breath, not because they really want to explore the topic, but just to be contrary. With these, I sometimes lose patience. Look through my comments and you will see that it is rare for me to be insulting or judgmental. But of course, all I have to do to make some people angry is to refuse to recant my conservative moorings. And yet we press on.

  • Jesus is your Mentor, counselor, advisor. Whom do you know and follow now who reflects Jesus character. What does Jesus teach you?

  • Integrity, compassion for others, selflessness. The importance of humility, contrition, honesty and gratitude. The main reason I stick closely to what Scripture teaches is because Jesus is the Word. He said of himself: “If you abide in my word, then you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32)

  • Yes I appreciate that you’ve been very respectful and honest with where you’re at. We press on together!!

    All the people we used to know
    They’re an illusion to me now
    Some are mathematicians
    Some are carpenters’ wives
    Don’t know how it all got started
    I don’t know what they’re doin’ with their lives
    But me, I’m still on the road
    Headin’ for another joint
    We always did feel the same
    We just saw it from a different point
    Of view
    Tangled up in blue
    – Bob Dylan

  • Yes I believe that that’s true. How does it work in a practical sense to abide in his word? There are a lot of idealistic words in your post. How do they work out to be real in your life with regard to loving your neighbor as yourself? Please don’t take this as an interrogation!! you may want to keep the answers strictly private. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c3f73d56d25600290b7456145cd72c2560b8fab3aac0eb1381df416710af28ad.jpg

  • Digitali

    Sigh…

  • @Herm, I don’t really believe these struggles you alluded to — abolition of slavery, the struggle between left and right, regulation vs. pollution, right-to-life vs. right-to-abort, etc. are really where we need to focus our attention. There is an oligarchy at work behind all of it, and they have both Democrats and Republicans working for them, pro-life and pro-choice, etc.

  • Bones

    Even more lies….You can’t even lie straight in bed.

    What complete and utter bollocks.

    Hitler wasn’t a liberal.

    He was a social conservative, like you. He appealed to conservative values to exterminate homosexuals and abortionists. He hated the Weimar Republic and the liberalism it espoused. He advocated patriarchal views of women. The Nazis strongly discouraged, and in some cases outright rejected the following behaviors: the use of cosmetics, premarital sex, prostitution, pornography, sexual vices, smoking, and excessive drinking. In many ways, there was a distinct Anti-intellectualism present within Nazi philosophy. Hearkening back to a simpler time, Hitler and the Nazis attempted to vindicate the glorious past as the key to a more promising future.

    That sounds eerily familiar to conservatives today.

    The liberals were the German Democrats most of whom were sent to Nazi concentration camps.

    Ffs learn some history.

    Go take your revisionist bs somewhere else.

    And yeah I’m glad my taxes go to help the poor, the old, the sick, the disabled unlike you pathetic merkins.

  • Lark62

    So many lies.

    Many nations thrive without irrationally guarding borders. Our nation was built by people who came here seeking a better life.

    Your beloved Trump has just trashed a program that decreased abortion. Evangelicals only care about controlling the sexual purity of their female property. By their fruit shall ye know them. Contraception programs, sex ed and social safety nets are proven to reduce abortions. Evangelicals always reject those solutions in favor of slut shaming. Every time. Every evangelical who protests abortion is a liar.

    Not one single trans person has ever attacked anyone in a restroom ever. The only person in danger when a trans person uses a public restroom is the trans person. But evangelicals don’t give a damn about those lives. They just need someone to hate and dominate.

  • Bones

    A person’s health is their business – not a company’s. Which shows how stupid the US is that it is controlled by health insurance companies.

    ” It’s not like they’re denying coverage to that person anymore than you denying me Disney World tickets if you said, “No, I’m not going to make payments toward your Disney World tickets.”; they’re just denying their role in covering it, and I don’t say that you are denying me Disney World ticket coverage.”

    Meanwhile in the real world….

    My Employer Tried to Block My Access to Birth Control
    http://time.com/4261974/access-to-birth-control/

    “Besides, employers (aka companies, aka the owner’s company) shouldn’t be obligated to provide coverage anyway.”

    That’s what I’ve been pointing out…and why the US health system is a basket case.

  • Bones

    No different to how the majority of Muslims are women.

    But at least you’ve admitted your ignorance of your own history.

  • Bones

    KAPOW!

  • Bones

    Rubbish! Fox News.

  • Bones

    “There is an oligarchy at work behind all of it”

    That’s what Hitler believed too.

    Darn Jews!

  • Bones

    “There are people on these blogs who are fundamentally dishonest…. ”

    That’s you, pal.

    It seems that lying is a conservative trait.

    which is ironic given they think they have the superior moral ground.

  • Bones

    Lol….you’ve just rattled off a whole group of people you hate and you claim others have the “moral high ground”. Cry me a river of tears, you hypocrite.

    Btw Hitler sent abortionists to the gas chamber as well as women who had them.

    So your false equivalence doesn’t work very well.

    And of course we have liberal abortion laws because it’s been proven that anti-abortion laws don’t work eg Latin America, Africa, the Middle East. But you don’t give a shit about that. it’s just a meme that you’ve worked yourself up about.

    You sound more and more like Hitler with your ranting over ‘cultural elites’…

    Is that you, Adolf?

  • Bones

    Lol….compassion for others…you don’t give a rat’s arse about others. What a self-righteous sanctimonious piece of work you are.

    Don’t forget Jesus hated governments providing for the poor….that’s in Matthew 44:36 (Fox News version)…..(Forgetting of course the Old Testament where the government did provide for the poor).

    You obviously don’t take much notice of the Bible much (eg you lie all the time) except for when it comes to your pet hates eg gay people.

  • Bones

    JFK – “If by a “Liberal” they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people-their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties-someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a “Liberal”, then I’m proud to say I’m a “Liberal.”

    Obviously that’s not you…..

  • Bones

    He’s talking about you.

  • Tim

    The alt-right also assume the moral high ground. And Trump is doing a fair amount to trample American law, history, and what little culture America has as well.

  • $144948586

    “That’s what I’ve been pointing out…and why the US health system is a basket case.”

    So it’s stupid because (before Obama care, and ignoring Medicare and Medicaid etc) we didn’t believe in forcing other people to pay for other people’s insurance?

    That is the crux of that article, btw. Catholics don’t want to subsidize spmething they seem immoral.

  • $144948586

    I don’t know how mentioning Muslims factors here. I thought we were talking about the SBC.

    But, I’m not a Baptist,much less a Southern Baptist. So, it’s not my history.

  • Bones

    Huh?

    You don’t know about how Islam mistreats women either….

    It’s the same thing.

    People will stay in whatever religion they’re indoctrinated in regardless of how they are treated.

    Just look at Scientology.

  • $144948586

    Bones, the topic of conversation was the SBC’s contribution to the supremacy rise in 2017, and, since the *ALREADY REFUTED* bald assertion was that women are denied the opportunity to be preachers, how they are sexist.

  • Bones

    But you are paying for other people’s health insurance.

    Do you think companies are getting health care for free?

    Nah, you pay for it when you buy from them.

    It’s weird that you’re happy to pay for someone else’s health insurance from a company but not government.

    And employees’ health insurance cover is none of their employers’ business.

    And JWs deem blood transfusions immoral…anti-vaxers don’t want to subsidise vaccinations….

    Welcome to the minefield….of enshrining religion and dogma over people’s rights.

  • $144948586

    “But you are paying for other people’s health insurance.”
    No, I SHOULD BE paying for other people’s health insurance for which I AGREE to the benefits, and they reciprocate. It’s a voluntary transaction on both of our parts.

    “Do you think companies are getting health care for free?”
    Companies don’t need health care. People do. People shouldn’t need health insurance except that they voluntarily agree to it.

    “It’s weird that you’re happy to pay for someone else’s health insurance from a company but not government.”
    No, it’s not. I’m only happy to POOL MY MONEY for catastrophic events if someone else is happy to POOL THEIR MONEY for the same agreed upon events.
    In either case, we’re not forcing one another to cover something they don’t find acceptable to POOL OUR MONEY for.

    “And JWs deem blood transfusions immoral…anti-vaxers don’t want to subsidise vaccinations….”
    So then they don’t POOL THEIR MONEY for them. So then they don’t get a benefit from the treatment (unless they choose to cover their own services in some instance in which they find it acceptable).

    “Welcome to the minefield….of enshrining religion and dogma over people’s rights.”
    I’m not doing either. And the latter (forcing people to buy something they don’t want) is not a right, it’s enslavement.
    The former is not enshrining religion. It’s enshrining the individual’s right to liberty and free choice. In this instance, there is not minefield. There’s just people who suffer, people who WILLINGLY alleviate that suffering, and then people who WILLINGLY let them suffer–and then some who cause (note that not alleviating is not the same as causing) those suffering to suffer.
    You might say “that’s cold”. I say, “No matter the form of government intervention, these groups still exist. And government has the power to make, and often is responsible for making, the most people suffer needlessly due to their inefficiencies.”
    At least we libertarians are not guilty of oppressing others for our faulty judgments of the “greater good”. And please note, this conversation is practically ignoring the charity of individuals.

  • Just one problem: most of the hating and dominating these days is coming from the left.

  • $144948586

    “And employees’ health insurance cover is none of their employers’ business.”
    I do need to respond to this:
    When a person’s money is going towards this benefit and this benefit also determines the price that that person must pay for said insurance plan (which is what happens: if you wreck your car, you have a claim go to insurance which then means your premiums increase as you’ve become a riskier driver, and not just your premiums but an area’s premiums (often a zip code) go up–this is the same with insurance) THEN it is their business what insurance coverage they are both getting and subsidizing. You see, employers (that is, the owner(s) of the company) are often paying the majority cost of insurance–you don’t see that, but they are–and employees are also subsidizing this cost by pooling their money.
    Otherwise, if they don’t get to determine what should be coverable, then they have no say over the product they are buying, and THAT is ludicrous in almost every other aspect of life whether it be housing, cars, investment, food, or anything else we spend money on.
    This person also has the right NOT TO BUY these things. That is what liberty is.

  • $144948586

    You’re telling me.

  • So, this part of the quote:

    What about the politicians such as the city council who voted to remove a memorial that had been in place since 1924, regardless of the possible repercussions? How about the city politicians who issued the permit for the lawful demonstration to defend the statue? And why didn’t the mayor or the governor see that a powder keg was about to explode and stop it before it got started?

    That comes before the part about Trump, you are contending is NOT him pointing the finger at local leadership, but instead suggesting that, if anyone were going to point fingers at anybody besides the actual perpetrators, which Graham is totally not doing, those are the kinds of people you should point fingers at, but Graham is absolutely not doing that.

    That is your contention. That’s what you believe is the best way to understand the quote.

  • Bones

    No..it’s people like you.

  • Look, I apologize for a disparaging remark I made a few exchanges ago. That’s not my intention here. Why don’t we start over? You seem to believe I’m some sort of troglodyte, but I’ve studied all these things and have good, sound reasons for believing the way I do. I’m sure you also are sincere in your beliefs.

  • You didn’t get what I was saying: Graham is DEFENDING TRUMP from people who are already calling for heads to roll off shoulders that had nothing to do with the tragedy. Graham is saying, “Hey, if we’re going to blame other people, why not the local folks, who knew full well there was gas on the ground and who were in the positions of responsibility for avoiding and/or handling public unrest in that city/county/state.” It isn’t good enough to blame the perpetrators. We need to learn from these events and get better at avoiding them and handling them. What unfolded here couldn’t very well have happened unless someone looked the other way. Some of the stuff I’ve read suggests this could well have been another George Soros job. We already know he busses in paid protestors from all over the country to BLM and other popular leftist uprisings. He’s just a billionaire playing chess with people’s lives. The government has RARELY been held accountable, and even more rarely has corruption been pushed back. Americans have less freedom than ever. These protests accomplish nothing.

  • What does the alt-right have to do with anything. It’s not even a conservative group. It’s a bunch of whining, racist hotheads.

  • “you don’t give a rat’s arse about others.” Just so you know, this is one of the left’s standard dodges. “If you have no argument, accuse your combatant of being heartless. You’ll get points for emotion.”

  • The point is that people who believe they are always right think it’s okay to bend the rules. Hitler did it, liberals are doing it. That’s why America was founded upon its Constitution — PRECISELY so decisions wouldn’t be made on emotion or popular fevers. When we started ignoring parts of our Constitution, all bets were off.

    “Hitler sent abortionists to the gas chamber as well as women who had them.” You’re not getting the point. I’m not saying Hitler was IDENTICAL to modern liberals. I’m saying he was lawless and played on people’s emotions, just like liberals today.

  • You really don’t believe the billionaire bankers and industrialists are running this world? You need to take a closer look.

  • D.M.S.

    Really, I was indoctrinated into atheism.
    Now I’m a true Christian.

  • Lark62

    Yeah. Like those love filled nazis in Charlottesville.

  • Bones

    If you say so.

    But you’ve already let it known you don’t give a rats about others.

  • Bones

    Yes we understand your dishonest attempt at equating civil rights activism with Hitler.

    You failed.

    You’re a disgrace.

    Hitler was more like you.

  • Bones

    Sure, Adolf.

  • Bones

    No. You’re not.

    You’re a cultist.

  • Bones

    Ffs the Jewish conspiracy raises it’s head again.

    That really is you, Adolf.

  • Bones

    Nice try, but not all beliefs are the same.

    My beliefs are rooted in reality, education and human rights which includes the betterment of society.

    Yours are rooted in conspiracy theories, false equivalences, scaremongering and is reactionary to people being granted civil rights.

    The bloke that drove his van through peaceful crowds in Barcelona had sincerely held beliefs and he thought he had sound reasons for believing the way he did.

  • Digitali

    I am, but you’re still not listening….

  • Digitali

    BLAM! SOCKO! FWAP! Holy Nazi, Batman!

  • Digitali

    What a freaking load of excrement!

  • Digitali

    “I’m not saying Hitler was IDENTICAL to modern liberals.”

    “I’m saying he was …. just like liberals today.

  • $144948586
  • On what grounds would you say that Graham’s accusations against local leadership are hypotheticals and/or counterfactuals? What in the actual quote tells you he’s saying, “IF someone were going to criticize someone else, here are the kinds of things they might say?”

  • Bones

    My family fought Hitler to free people.

    So I know how disgraceful your lies are in equating modern civil rights movements which you hate with ultra conservatism.

    You’re a complete and utter moron who is blinded and followed lies because of your slavic devotion to your own ideology.

  • Herm

    That is the problem we have S.M., you list symptoms with no working solutions except to pull into your “conservative moorings”? All of the struggles, that I only had space to glance over, are fact that you choose to ignore.

    When a nation does not invest in all their citizenry and allies with the same hope for the future that we are caused, by paternal and maternal instinct, to invest in our children (eg: education, health, opportunity, nurture, inspiration, adventure, and responsibility to choice) all that they couldn’t possibly earn due to their weakened (physically, socially and spiritually) condition then we reap the mankind killers of subjugation, nationalism rather than humanism, self before all others, wealth for me and mine at the cost of other’s working equally as hard, and resource pollution absolutely necessary for the survival of all of mankind.

    Christ taught by example that mankind’s only chance to live as a species is for each temporary member to care enough to lay down their lives in love for the whole. Think about it.

    Your proud “conservative moorings” serve only to go back to the near past good old days of the dust bowl, the depression, and world war. Hitler was elected at first under the guise of a socialist party but immediately began instituting an authoritarian regime supported by propaganda that justified the genocide of millions of their own citizenry. Nazism did not offer socialized medical care for all, socialized education for all that respected all possibilities with equal favor, freedom to fail six times before becoming an independently wealthy, freedom to err and be forgiven, freedom to determine what to produce from your body for the health of mankind, and the free (graced) nurture to grow to be all that you can be. All of those, just off the top of my heart and mind, are exactly what each and every healthy parental/community body offers their children without their children being able to earn it. Purely authoritarian father and/or mother figures (as was Hitler), my way or the highway, never produce children, or a nation, or a world that invests all they have, and are, back into the growth mankind.

    God so loved the world … . That’s empathy, compassion and forgiveness for all of mankind and their supporting world that is divinely liberal and progressive by example. That is not my way or the highway, for my Father and Brother have no intention of smothering the constructive creative juices that can flow from mankind ever since they were graced the image of God. That is what we all, born of the Spirit, have to look forward, not backward, to for an eternity of socially sharing in the Spirit for an eternity. Israel, in Hebrew, means to have wrestled with God and won, at the very least, wrestled with God and walked away to tell about it. That is not the divine authoritarianism that conservative religions teach.

    abolition of slavery, the struggle between left and right, regulation vs. pollution, right-to-life vs. right-to-abort, etc.

    All of those, that you so carefully and microscopically want to focus our attention on, are answered and cured when we:

    *** love the Lord our God with all our united heart, with all our united soul, with all our united strength, with all our mind and like that we love our good neighbor no less or more than we love ourselves

    and

    *** in everything we do to all others as we would have all others do to us

    That means that rather than legislate what others will do we become the example for what others will do. The Decalogue are commandments that if you break any natural, out of God’s control, laws will enact and execute judgment, and all of God is subject to the same laws equally as is Man. Those commandments are no more than the official warning signs that tell you not to cross over the barriers set up to keep you from falling into the Grand Canyon to your death. Please, understand that it was Mankind, as one body, that received the image of God, as one body. Each person of mankind can join, through the Spirit, to become a child of God today. Each child of God has already picked up their cross for mankind in the example of our Lord and Brother Jesus the Christ.

    All persons of mankind will die. All children of God will live eternally. Pro-life is only in God and not in any way in Man. All persons with awareness and influence of mankind are free to choose to live or die, for both themselves and in support of theirs.

    Believe whatever you want, you’re free to choose, but beware of who is teaching you for there can only be one Spirit of truth, with and in the Father, the Son, the mother and all the children of God born of that Spirit, all bound as one by all love.

  • Herm

    “White Nationalists” are growing, not dying. They are no longer assigned to the closet of disrespect and no longer hide behind hoods, sheets and shame! Be scared!

    Conservative spirits of binary, my way or the highway, back to the good old days, over populate the world to buy my product, pollute all resources in the name of individual profit, me and mine before all others, etc. don’t scare me but they do hurt my heart and mind in empathy and compassion for all others when none of conservatism is in everything do to others as you would have others do to you. There is no investment for the profit of all mankind, only investment in self.

  • Herm

    All the laws are summed up and the commandments that all laws hang on are clear. God is no and all genders united as one by all love. You are definitely one of the nine goddesses, the daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne, who preside over the arts and sciences. You are not a child of God!

  • Herm

    That’s unsupported bullshit! All your laws hang on propaganda from self centered and divisive segregationists.

  • Herm

    There is no good reason for remaining dirt poor as the King of the Jews and allowing yourself to hang on a cross in the divine name of love for the whole world exactly as it was. Your studies are of God but not with, in and from God. Self centered logic is sufficiently deficient of perspective to be wholly unreliable. There are some among us who are beyond the logic of Man and thriving within the image of God, with an omnipresent perspective available as we can bear. Your humility, for the sake of continued communication is noted, but, so far, the sacred you believe you protect is not of God/Allah/Deity beyond the limitations of Man. You speak not as of the image of God but of the instinct for carnal self survival.

  • Bones

    Yeah that….and Aussie slang for a jerk.

  • Bones

    Nice modelling, Chuck.

  • Let’s put this a different way: nothing in Graham’s statement was directed toward the perpetrators. The whole exchange was about putting pressure on the right people to DO SOMETHING about the problem of violent protests, which we really need to do. So it’s a non-issue that Graham didn’t point the finger at the perpetrators. What do you suggest Graham (or any other public figure) should do? Stand up and denounce murder? Like, that’s really going to curb violence in the streets.

  • I didn’t say my conservative moorings were “proud.” Only what makes the most sense to me. And you’re wrong about the oligarchs and industrialists losing their power. They’re just wielding it in a different way. Oligarchs always find a way to work around grass-roots movements.

    On a different note, the Scriptures you quote are great, but they speak to each individual and his/her relationship with God. Most of what we’ve been debating here has to do with official actions by governments/bureaucracies. Scripture does not direct governments anywhere. We can hope all we like that our public officials will keep their official conduct moral, but the Bible doesn’t give any commands to governments, so we still have to figure out what to require of our governments. If only all individuals would heed Scripture’s warnings, but they don’t, so we have to use our heads and also remember the moral lessons we’ve learned, and so equipped, enter into public discourse about what the government should or should not be doing. If only just having good intentions were enough; but often, we can hurt people we’re trying to help. That’s why we need more than moral imperatives to craft these policies.

  • Your family’s involvement in the war doesn’t magically give you insight into the nature of the Nazi evil. Your anger isn’t enough; you need to learn to use your head about these things as well. Obviously, you’re not ready to do that. If you decide to stop insulting me at some point, great. Otherwise, I don’t think these exchanges are accomplishing anything.

  • Bones

    Yeah it does….

    As well as the facts…

    You are exceedingly dishonest and disgusting by equivicating nazis and civil rights activists.

    Btw you don’t have a problem calling leftists nazis. …then cries when people calls your shit out.

  • Bones

    I seem to recall a time when scripture directed government.

    It led to a lot of people dying.

    Of course what you really mean is you want the government to follow YOUR interpretation of scripture.

  • Bones

    You bet, brother.

  • I would expect him -not- to say that the fault lay with the people who wanted the statue gone and either worked for or allowed that to happen. The problem pointed out in Ben’s article, which is a problem I agree with, is that Franklin basically said the violence was the result of the shortsightedness of the people who brought the monument down.

    You seem to be arguing that Franklin only mentioned those officials as hypothetical foils. I’m asking you to furnish evidence for that interpretation from the text. Because it appears as though he’s just basically saying it outright without any of the qualifiers you are claiming are part of his meaning.

  • Herm

    Please, let’s keep this simple. What is “more than moral imperatives to craft these policies” that we need?

    Remember, I stated, and non-revisionist facts prove it out, that the USA reached affluence for the majority while big business flourished only when the independently wealthy were taxed up to 95% of their annual income (not net worth) to institute socialist programs and safety nets. This being accepted as true worldwide in the 1950’s and 60’s. Since the 1970’s, this has eroded every year when using the gauge of how the distribution of resources gap between “middle class” employees relative to the “top 1%” has widened to the point where the middle class is approaching non-existent as it was in the 1930’s and 40’s.

    The good news is that within all those years women were more recognized as being potentially equal earners and entrepreneurs. Those of Black heritage were more and more recognized as being equal members of mankind. Healthcare, in the rest of the world of first world countries, became a right for all citizens, but not the USA.

    The bad news is that we still have yet to love our poor, but good, neighbor as ourselves. We still politically make “others” the blame for our deficiencies. We, the USA, still don’t invest in all of our potentially good, productive and constructive people to lift them out of despair and into hope. We still have a controlling populous who justify themselves special because they invest in the growth of their business to employ the masses. We still do not realize that to get ahead, no matter how talented and capable one is, in the USA they have to be in the right place at the right time. We still do not realize it is the resources that were available to us before we came that have allowed any of us to prosper, not some magically bestowed right of Yankee ingenuity (we didn’t earn anything that was not already here before us).

    So, what more do we need than the objective, agreed upon by our nation as a whole, of in everything we do to all others as we would have all others do to us? … not as a moral imperative but the sum of the law on earth as it is in heaven.

  • I don’t have any license to pry into Graham’s head. You tell me what is wrong with what Graham said.

  • “Since the 1970’s, this has eroded every year…”

    Exactly. Now you’re discovering the continuing work of the oligarchs. But in a way, it can be a positive development. Humans are designed to find the easiest way, involving the least effort and expense. It’s how we are made. So when Joe Government steps up and tells us, “Because you live in an affluent nation, you are ENTITLED to room, board and free medical care” — you’d better believe many are going to take it to the bank (while reclining in front of the television eating Sara Lee cookies). That’s the problem with socialism — beside the fact that America is broke, without the funds to pay for all this stuff.

    Am I being cynical?

  • The article does that very thing, and so did I. You’re the one making the claim that Graham didn’t mean it the way it appears – that he only meant it hypothetically and isn’t really blaming the people he appears to blame. I’m asking you to justify that claim.

    If you’re saying that you can’t because you can’t get into Graham’s head, I’d totally agree, and the obvious implication of that is that you should probably stop making that argument.

  • My contention is that Graham said nothing racist. That’s my argument. You seem to disagree. I don’t want to hear semantics, I want to hear why you believe Graham was wrong in what he said.

  • The title of this article is literally “Franklin Graham: Blame White Terrorism On Those Who Voted To Remove The Racist Monument .” That’s what he did in his quote, and that is wrong. That’s what the article claims. That is also what I claim. He is blaming the violence on the people who wanted to remove the monument. If he is doing this, this is wrong. The article is about Graham apparently blaming the people who removed the monument. That’s why the title is what it is.

    You have made the point that Graham is trying to defend Trump. Yes.

    You have gone on to make the point that Graham is not blaming the people he appears to blame, but is basically saying, “If you’re going to blame somebody, why not blame these people?” I’m asking what about the quote makes you believe that’s what he’s saying.

    If you believe that, in the quote, Graham is blaming the people who wanted the monument removed, then you agree with the article and with me.

    If you do not believe Graham is blaming the people he highlights in the article, then you disagree with the article, and that’s fine. This is what you appear to be doing. You have posited an alternative interpretation of Graham where he is just pointing out those people hypothetically if you wanted to blame someone, which is something he himself is not doing.

    I’m asking you what from the quote makes your reading the most likely one.

  • Bones

    It’s the Jews again.

    Most western countries (like mine) are happy with free healthcare unlike the US where conservatives prefer to support oligarchs also known as private health insurance companies.

    Oh and Big Pharma. …

  • Graham is “blaming” all kinds of people. Actually, he’s DEFLECTING blame from Trump, but he needs to stand on his statements. Believe it or not, I see your point. Graham did put a SMALL part of the blame on those who were agitating to remove the statues. There is a point to be made here about the danger of engaging in activism at ALL, for however justified a reason. The cost of physical demonstrations is usually greater than the reward nowadays — a string of Pyrrhic victories. That is, (if you know your history) the solution is worse than the problem. But most activists these days are content to make a big noise, bash in a few plate-glass windows (paid for by all of us, since insurance raises rates on collectors) and set things on fire. They seem not to be concerned with the ends they so passionately advocate.

    However, I’ll stick to saying this: Trump’s suggestion that the original agitators were guilty was wrong, but not over the top. Haven’t you ever said something that wasn’t 100 percent accurate?

  • Oh yeah, all the time. But it’s usually not a public address to the nation, and I’m not the President of the United States addressing the country, and my personal views on a great many things have absolutely zero influence on American policy or experience, nor do they encourage large groups of people in their behavior. And blaming people protesting racism for violence inflicted against them is a trifle more extreme than getting Eisenhower’s birthday wrong.

    But, anyway, we’re getting away from the point of the article. The point of the article wasn’t about Trump at all. It was about inappropriately blaming anti-racists for violence done against them in the name of racism.

  • Herm

    The simple answer, to your question, is emphatically yes!!!

    You are talking welfare state, which does not work because giving a survival subsistence without direct relationship never fulfills the social responsibilities every species must have to their own to survive as a species. All healthy children are “ENTITLED to room, board and free medical care” as much as their family and community can provide. All healthy children who grow up to be the most healthy productive and constructive adults, barring premature illness and/or death, owe their positive influence for mankind to having been freely given an abundant survival subsistence (room, board, education, strengthening team play time, healthy adult role models and medical care, all free); plus having been graced an enduring, endearing and benevolent love (empathy, compassion, and forgiveness) to grow their sense of self worth (later to be spent invested back into their species).

    America is not broke! Right now, the USA is the wealthiest nation on earth with the highest per capita incomes of any other nation. We owe most of our intellectually staggering debt to ourselves with interest payments lower than any other broker could afford to offer their debtors. That is economic fact but, on top of that, our species forgets that all the resources we trade back and forth were given to us free of charge. We are stewards only for we did not create, even if luckily happened from a big bang 14 billion years ago, all that determines our health and welfare. That is the trouble with capitalism and oligarchic rule that distributes our species’ resources mostly to those in the least need.

    For children of God, today, by our Father’s and our heavenly Brother’s example of divine healthy social rule, we must be prepared, at all times, to invest all we have and are back into our carnal species on the cross we carry. All we ask will and is debt forgiveness through the contractual words, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do!”.

  • Corporate America isn’t broke, average Americans are broke and the US is $20 trillion in debt. We should think about keeping the whole ship afloat first. Just how much better off are the poor going to be after a US economic collapse? http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/11/news/economy/middle-class-wealth/index.html

  • “And blaming people protesting racism for violence inflicted against them is a trifle more extreme than getting Eisenhower’s birthday wrong.”

    Priceless! I laughed out loud.

    And you’re right: the President of the United States ought to be dignified and cautious in his public speech. Unfortunately, we’ve gone a bit beyond that. We’re lucky enough nowadays if the president is capable of independent thought. I’m surprised Trump hasn’t been targeted in more severe ways, if you know what I mean. Let’s clear up the confusion: I don’t believe Trump is the Republican Messiah or anything as gushy as that. I do believe he is sincere and doing good things most of the time. I could be wrong.

  • Herm

    So simply put, we’re back to democracy/republic rule versus oligarchy rule. It is only our ability to discern fact from propaganda that determines the effectiveness of our self populous governing state. We are not nationally broke with the resources at our governing command. We are broke in our ability to responsibly invest our wealth in our nation’s economic health for all citizens and in the economic health of all the citizens of our allied nations. If we do collapse economically, as a nation, so will follow the world as was proven in the last great recession.

  • “We are not nationally broke with the resources at our governing command. We are broke in our ability to responsibly invest our wealth in our nation’s economic health…”

    Right. The system is broken. Most of our wealth is being extracted through hidden taxes (the Federal Reserve is the chief perpetrator) and boondoggles far and wide. Many charities and bureaucracies are swimming in public money, but plenty of it is going to places unknown. Conservatism may have a bad reputation, but it is effective in keeping things based on the merit system. Basically, “No workee, no checkee…”

  • $144948586

    “All healthy children are “ENTITLED to room, board and free medical care” as much as their family and community can provide.”
    Firstly, so unhealthy children aren’t?
    Second, from whence do these laws come? Why am I responsible for a child from persons who couldn’t practice abstinence?
    Third, where is medical care free?
    Fourth, where are rooms free?
    Fifth, where are boards free? What kind of boards? White boards are astonishingly expensive for a good sized one.

    “All healthy children who grow up to be the most healthy productive and constructive adults, barring premature illness and/or death, owe their positive influence for mankind”
    But they never chose to be born; why do they owe anything?

    “America is not broke! Right now, the USA is the wealthiest nation on earth with the highest per capita incomes of any other nation.”
    From where do you get this factoid?
    And since when does income mean anything with regards to wealth?
    If I make 100k a year, but tax rates are 90%, surely you wouldn’t call me wealthy when I come home with 10k.

    “We owe most of our intellectually staggering debt to ourselves with interest payments lower than any other broker could afford to offer their debtors.”
    Except that we have burned up present resources with future proceeds; thus we’ve transferred resource scarcity to our children and their children.
    Not to mention, we roll over our debts with future debts; regardless of the power the Fed thinks it has, interest rates will eventually be determined by markets once again.

    “That is the trouble with capitalism and oligarchic rule that distributes our species’ resources mostly to those in the least need.”
    This is crap. Those who, in times past needed said resources (like Rockefeller), refined its uses out of efficiency and thirst for profit (not gouging), and distributed other goods in return for cheaper. Thus, we are able to grow avocados in Brazil and ship them back in return for our country’s tech goods and oil…resources we USED to need but now need them least, because WE dominated the industries through technological advance. Thus you’re statement that ” capitalism…distributes our species’ resources mostly to those in the least need.” is wrong, because FIRST CAPITALISM is the anti-thesis of oligarchic, and SECOND betrays the fact that resources are, in fact, distributed through capitalism with the most need AND the best return (and return itself is a measure of necessity–you’ll pay more for water when you’re thirsty that you would for diamonds). Thus capitalism ultimately solves the issue of necessary resources always being scarce. You’re statement betrays the cause for why resources get accumulated to certain sectors that appear to be flooded in said resource. It’s a bit like saying, “Food gravitates to that fat boy.” Well, no, that boy got fat because he attained lots of food. But if he cared less about food and more about other stuff (this is called marginal utility), then he’d use his supply chain to sell food to other folks and attain other things.
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=capitalism+definition

  • $144948586

    Quick question: what laws?

  • Herm

    That truly is a symptom of your being legally physically, socially, and spiritually deaf and blind while immersed in the prevailing conservative mantra of take us back to the good old days that never were. The average net worth of United States of American citizen’s from 2011 (at the end of the great recession) was $68,828.

    Today’s USA net worth is calculated even higher: http://www.financialsamurai.com/average-net-worth-is-huge/ Only three nations surpass the USA in average net worth. But, 18 nations exceed the USA’s median net worth. Australia, Switzerland, and Norway (those ahead in net worth) are further ahead of the USA in median net worth because their wealth is more equitably distributed among their citizen’s. All three of those nations are far ahead in recognizing their national responsibility toward the social well being of all their citizen’s (“No workee, no checkee…” is not even a consideration) than the USA. Each of those nations have guaranteed healthcare, education, and survival subsistence as a right to be supported by the state.

    The numbers of those below the poverty level in the USA, to subsist as healthy (mentally, physically and spiritually), are increasing due to “No workee, no checkee…“. Once below the poverty level proper clothing to get a job, confidence to get a job, energy from good nutrition and rest necessary to qualify for a job, and education for your children to later be able to qualify for a satisfactory paying job all diminish exponentially.

    By the way, the goal worker jobs did not diminish primarily because of lack of goal demand but mainly because of automation. We have major factions in the USA insisting on, through different means, increasing our population without considering just what they are going to do, under the merit system of “No workee, no checkee…” to survive without social assistance.

    Wow, all the pitfalls of individuals forced to compete within a governing society that balances a survival of the fittest mentality with no legally supported abortion and/or contraception projects out to rule by competing chaos. I sometimes wish I, too, could be deaf and blind to reality so that I, too, could, without empathy, ignore the needs of the hungry, illiterate, homeless, and the hopelessly indigent trying to survive in a “No workee, no checkee…” nation. It truly does work better for all, constructive and productive, by the working example of democratic socialist nations, that are not authoritarian, to recognize the most potential possible from all citizen’s a ruling body is responsible for, than in the USA where so many believe “No workee, no checkee…” is the formula for national prosperity. We never grew, as a nation economically for all, as much as we did when we instituted social assistance and safety nets in the late 40’s and early 50’s.

    By your conservative system I wonder if you, also, tell all your helpless but potentially growing, with a little help, children “No workee, no checkee…“!?!

  • Herm

    The ones that do not conform to these commandments:

    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV2011)

  • $144948586

    Any examples?

  • Herm

    The Sanctified Muse charlesburchfield • 5 days ago

    Lawlessness — liberals advocate defying federal authorities with sanctuary cities and circumventing other border security policies. This is mad even if it weren’t lawless. No nation has ever survived without guarding its border; Abortion — a barbaric practice if there ever was one, a mass extermination for convenience that we delude ourselves is okay because the kid is still in its mother’s womb; Transgenderism — a delusion that ignores science and reason and makes the “rights” of a tiny percentage of our population more important than everyone else’s rights, especially underage girls who have to contend with predators when they use public restrooms. There’s a lot more where those came from.

  • $144948586

    So abortion laws come from self-centered, divisive folks?
    So, bathroom bills have nothing to do with true concern about the most vulnerable in our population?

  • Bones

    “I could be wrong.”

    About most things from what we’ve seen.

  • Herm

    true

  • Bones

    Aaah so now you want government to regulate people behaviour.

    Of course you would.

  • $144948586

    Bones, please don’t be dishonest. I said no such thing and you know it

  • $144948586

    How considering the life of the unborn yet still alive is self-centered, you got me.

  • Calculating “average net worth” isn’t going to tell us what we need to know. With all the ultra-wealthy Americans out there, “average” is pulled way up. Basic statistics. The MEDIAN income of Americans is 27th in the world. Look it up.

  • Herm

    It is too easy to get you. You don’t know that child nor do you know the circumstances of the parents. You are only surmising relative to you and not them. That is not empathy for another but only considering your own feelings. All parents having to make that choice should have been raised to responsibly seek counsel directly with professionals who understand the ramifications.

  • Herm
  • Terrie Collins

    Did Hilary tell you to say that

  • $144948586

    So I can’t be not-self-centered unless I know that child or those parents?

    “All parents having to make that choice should have been raised to
    responsibly seek counsel directly with professionals who understand the
    ramifications.”
    And yet, so many of these inner-city youths who have practically grown up in the public institution system YOU CHAMPION come out NOT “responsibly seeking council with professionals who understand the ramifications.”

  • Herm

    You really are the bad guy. Have you attended an inner city public school? Neither have half the children in an inner city environment where there is very little hope of escaping poverty with a good paying job.

  • $144948586

    Please elaborate.

  • No 0

  • I hope you can help me out here Sanctified Muse! What do you mean? No 0? Do you by any chance mean zero-sum? Here’s the definition by which I am defining zero sum: of, relating to, or being a situation (such as a game or relationship) in which a gain for one side entails a corresponding loss for the other side dividing up the budget is a zero–sum game.
    Here’s a little story that might amuse you:
    https://youtu.be/6at5gBa4ZbI

  • Something happened to the comment I made — I have no idea what. I don’t recall now what I typed in originally. I wasn’t trying to be a smart ass or anything. :-)

  • IconoclastTwo


    “You didn’t get what I was saying: Graham is DEFENDING TRUMP from people who are already calling for heads to roll off shoulders that had nothing to do with the tragedy.”

    But Trump had everything to do with it, although not in a strictly “chain of command” sort of way in which he told them exactly what to do and they did it.

    Did Trump spend years empowering racists with his lies about Obama? Yes.

    Did Trump’s entire campaign trade in racism over and over again? Yes

    Did racists and fascists feel empowered not just by Trump’s campaign, but by Trump winning? Yes.

    Furthermore, after the fascist attacks, what did Trump say? That there were good people on both sides-which legitimizes fascists even though they were screaming “Jews will not replace us” and such, attacking black people at random, and committed murder.

    “Some of the stuff I’ve read suggests this could well have been another George Soros job. We already know he busses in paid protestors from all over the country to BLM and other popular leftist uprisings. He’s just a billionaire playing chess with people’s lives.”

    Is there a shred of actual proof for this? Breitbart and such automatically doesn’t count.

    “The government has RARELY been held accountable, and even more rarely has corruption been pushed back.”

    There’s plenty of corruption-in the Trump administration.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Conservatism may have a bad reputation, but it is effective in keeping things based on the merit system.”

    I know this is a month ago but I couldn’t see a statement that was a laughable howler this bad and just not let it go unchallenged. Do you think that Ben Carson got a cabinet level position in charge of HUD and Rick Perry is now Secretary of Energy, making him responsible for one of the country’s most dire toxic waste situations at Hanford, in charge of safeguarding some of the most hazardous chemicals people have ever devised, and creating/implementing energy policy, because they were qualified? As a general point every conservative administration I’ve ever seen has either stripmined, crashed, or both everything they’ve been in charge of in this country and blamed the poor and minorities for their own con artist/grotesquely incompetent behavior.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Your beliefs in no way undermine oligarchic control.

  • Of course they don’t. Following Christ isn’t about trying to overthrow corrupt secular governments and their corporate employers (the oligarchs). We speak truth, vote and trust God with the rest.

  • Do you really believe we’re going to get honest, sincere and capable leaders in office at this stage? We’re way past that. The U.S. went over the precipice a long time ago. Ignorance and narcissism are the order of the day. Giving away government goodies to the poor is about the consolidation of political power, and it’s working: look at how many people are clamoring for socialists to be elected into office. Give a child a candy bar, and he’ll do your bidding.

  • There is some corruption in every administration. You accuse Trump of racism. Show me some examples.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Except that ‘socialists’ are not even remotely in power: people like you or people who pander to people like you are and its been during that time that the United States has become a staggeringly unequal country in which most of its citizens are vastly worse off on a class basis.

    Driving over the precipice is exactly what you, ultimately, _wanted_ and supported-and it was the ‘socialists’ (which I doubt you even mean except as an epithet) that were opposed to it.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “There is some corruption in every administration.”

    So if there is then you can’t claim that conservatism somehow prevents it or is morally or politically superior for doing so.

    “You accuse Trump of racism. Show me some examples.”

    Even beyond birtherism:

    Trump’s accusation that Mexicans were “sending rapists” across the border during his campaign. Everything about that was racist, from the symbolism, to the idea that there’s a unified “brown horde” threatening white purity, to the fact that unsurprisingly like just about everything else Trump said, it wasn’t true.

    Trump’s multiple attempts to create a Muslim ban.

    Trump’s support for police brutality as related to:

    Trump lying about crime rates in order to support militarization of cities against their populaces.

    Trump’s voter fraud commission-chaired by a far right republican who speaks at anti-immigration groups and has always made it clear that the purpose of his activities is to depress voter turnout from people who aren’t Republicans: read minorities.

    Trump’s slippery slope defense of confederate-glorifying statues who obviously fought their war against the rest of the country in defense of anti-black oppression and white supremacy as a cause (in their own words) and for the overwhelming majority of them weren’t even installed immediately after the civil war. They were done so as acts of racist historical revisionism instead.

    Also see my above point about what the “good people” on his side were saying on Charlottesville. If you defend them in any way then you’re a racist. Simple as that and it has to be repeated.

  • Basic community services such as you mentioned are part of fundamental civilization. Cradle-to-grave coddling is socialism and it is harmful all around. If you can’t see the distinction, you may want to examine your thinking process.

  • We just got through eight years of the most socialist president this country has ever seen. You’re not using your head.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Hardly (to either statement). Obama was not even close to the most socialist president this country ever had. He left the banksters in charge; in fact in many ways they’re even stronger now. He brought back dozens of Clinton-era retreads that were solidly part of the capitalist spectrum of ideology. The single biggest initiative he had that generally affected most people was the health care reform-which eliminated some of the worst practices of the insurance industry but still preserved its power.

    When you compare what Obama did during his eight years to what FDR did in his first four, let alone eight, then no, by any rational standard you can’t say that Obama was the most socialist president this country ever had. FDR wasn’t really a socialist either as much as he was a reformer who was dealing with a nation that your ideology had completely crashed into a wall.

  • Sophotroph

    I see you’ve not spent even a minute applying that last paragraph to yourself.

  • Sophotroph

    Almost every nation that has even existed has completely lacked protection for their border. Borders as we envision them today were not even a thing for most of the time nations have been.

    Transgender issues ignores no science, but there is a huge amount of propaganda that claims so. Furthermore, the issue of “bathroom predators” has already been debunked, and a measly google would have informed you of such.

    You’ve been lied to, namely so you’ll consider thoughtful, intelligent people as monsters who it’s useless to attempt to peaceably discuss differences with.

  • Your deception is so eloquently presented here. We’re all “monsters” when it comes down to it — we’re fallen creatures, as you’ve aptly demonstrated.

  • Sophotroph
  • Sophotroph

    Everybody needs a hobby!

  • Sophotroph

    Oh wow. My apologies. I didn’t understand your particular quoting convention until just now. I do believe I’ve mistaken you for the author of the second quote in your post.

  • If only I could attain the sweetness and wisdom of rabbi heschel!! I think there is something of oneself that attracts one to seek those one admires most.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9357824a71479049628ce2d93818de95477a1bb0631bfef2a4fddbc501365014.jpg