Franklin Graham: Forcing People To Get Married Is A Great Idea

Franklin Graham: Forcing People To Get Married Is A Great Idea June 1, 2017

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Forced Marriages: What Franklin Graham Is Wrong About Today

 

I thought I had seen it all, and then today came.

The Fundamentalist Pope, Franklin Graham, is praising Burundi’s President Pierre Nkurunziza for FORCING people to get married.

Yes, that’s right– forced marriage.

President Nkurunziza is a professing Christian who is serving a questionable third term as president of Burundi, and has now ordered any couple living together to get married by the end of year, or else.

We’re not exactly sure what the “or else” means, but according to one person quoted by the BBC article Franklin Graham shared on Facebook, government officials have told him that he and his girlfriend face a fine, and that any children they have outside of marriage will not be eligible for medical care or public education. 

Of course, Franklin Graham is praising this idea. In his post he says:

“In a world that has lost its moral compass, here’s a president who is trying to make a difference. Burundi’s President Pierre Nkurunziza is a Christian. The world may scorn and laugh at him, but he knows that God’s ways are always in the best interest of individuals, of families, and of nations. Let’s pray for him and his efforts to promote morality in Burundi.

The Bible tell us, ‘Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.’ (Proverbs 14:34)”

The key area where I disagree with Graham is the notion that the world will laugh about this– they’re not.

Nothing about forcing people to get married is funny. Nothing about taking medical care away from children because their parents are not married is funny. Nothing about a child being refused an education because the marital status of their parents is funny.

None of this is funny.

Not even a little.

It’s one thing to promote one’s version of sexual morality or marriage in a context of free speech, the competition of ideas, persuasion, etc., but it’s entirely another to make one’s views into law and force that on other people. While there are many reasons this is morally wrong, the biggest reason is the fact that all laws are enforced by violence or the threat of violence. This means that when one legislates their own religious views into law, they are violently forcing their views upon others– and nothing about that is good, right, moral, or Christian.

Taking healthcare away from a child who may get sick and die, is an incredibly violent act.

Taking education away from a child, potentially dooming them to a life of poverty or exploitation, is an incredibly violent act.

Fining someone who is already impoverished, is an incredibly violent act.

NONE of this reflects the way of Jesus. Never once does Jesus tell his followers to take over all the governments of the world, establish theocracies, and punish those who don’t live by whatever moral code is established. That’s not how Jesus works.

While horrific violence against children such as this can be clothed in lofty concepts of “bringing morality to culture” etc., the reality is that this approach is functionally the same approach as ISIS or the Taliban: “God’s ways are best, culture needs to be moralized, and we will use violence to bring you into compliance with our religious views.”

Pierre Nkurunziza’s approach to increasing marriage rates in his country is not just wrong, but violently wrong.

And supporting the enshrinement of your personal values into law so that you can violently force others to live by them, punishing children if the parents do not comply?

Well, that’s what Franklin Graham is wrong about today.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

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  • The other side of this I don’t get: wouldn’t that seriously destroy the sanctity of marriage? Isn’t part of what makes marriage special that is is a chosen commitment? Or is it now a silly liberal idea to suggest that marriage should mean something other than “the government was going to punish me if I didn’t”?

  • Krista

    The BBC article says Burundi officials believe “the crackdown on informal relationships [is] needed to combat a population explosion.”
    Nope. Birth control. Ensuring access to low- to no-cost birth control and educating your women. That’s how you control a population boom.

  • Ann

    Franklin Graham’s crackpot notions are causing lots of harm. He’s so off base in his theology that is is frightening.

  • Herm

    You are so very right (also, so very left) in coming from the other side of an intimate contractual relationship sanctified by God. None of God have sexually opposite relationships to propagate God for God is eternal and spirit. Man has to have sexually opposite relationships that mankind might survive for Man is otherwise finite and always physical.

    Mr. Graham and President Nkurunziza can’t seem to separate children of Man from children of God sexually, so they invoke God to match their morality for all, which does not in reality match God’s will for all. Love in God’s spirit is a long term, without pause, bond while the love Mr. Graham and President Nkurunziza falsely understand as promoting God’s morality in Burundi is only momentary sexual intimacy.

    The freely chosen contract of intimate marriage between two adult, reasoning and responsible beings of Man should be held in the highest esteem by governments of Man and certainly is by the love of God. Marriage is between two of mankind who help each other, the metaphoric reason for Eve, not to appease the dictatorial propagation of the species.

  • When one has grown up in a culture of authoritarian spirituality, been brainwashed and suffers from cognitive dissonance I think in order to justify atrocities One must have an issue to base one’s elitism upon and thereby justify one’s privilege and one’s right to rule and control. The more abstract the issue is the better!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/75a44dd866ff0ea77c4059146fce57b8d93c41ebe6d8a62e3abd508f12e5ffb0.jpg

  • otrotierra

    Wait until Franklin Graham and his followers learn about Jesus, who never married. At least Paul of Tarsus got marr…. oh, wait…

  • Tim

    “While horrific violence against children such as this can be clothed in lofty concepts of “bringing morality to culture” etc., the reality is that this approach is functionally the same approach as ISIS or the Taliban: “God’s ways are best, culture needs to be moralized, and we will use violence to bring you into compliance with our religious views.”

    Yep.

  • Etranger

    And all the apostles who were married abandoned their wives! I learned long ago that the Bible is no source for guidance on good morality.

  • CroneEver

    Oh, no. You can’t have educated women managing their own reproductive health. That’s why we have an all-male committee taking care of it for us in Washington.

  • Governments make decisions about their people all the time. In this country we were subjected to Obama Care where younger people were forced to buy healthcare insurance they did not want or pay a fine and go to jail for the benefit of others who could not afford to pay for their own healthcare. Was that the violent action of a lawless President? Did Franklin Graham influence that decision?

  • Melinda Killie

    What ABSOLUTE TWADDLE Franklin Graham spouts. He’s not interested in the care and welfare of the people. It goes back to the idea that fundamentalist, Pharisee, bigoted, hypocritical organized religion (ESPECIALLY the so called Baptists) of having power over their congregation. No love, sympathy, or help there. Just greed and corruption. Nothing more…

  • daroncrass

    China has realized there one child policy was a big mistake.

  • otrotierra

    Do you have your one-way ticket booked out of the United States? Be sure to keep us updated when you arrive on your tax-free island.

  • swbarnes2

    Possession is 9/10ths of the law. If you go to Somalia, no one is going to come and get you. So just go.

  • Olive

    I appreciate where you’re coming from on this issue. But if you insist on giving up all the benefits of society in exchange for keeping what’s yours, I would request that you give up absolutely everything that society fostered. Please do not take any supplies that you did not design and manufacture yourself. Don’t bring any food that you did not glean from nature. Do not use any medicine that you did not invent by yourself. And definitely do not take payment from people who still interact with the taxed world.

    I see that you find taxes to be a violent burden on your freedom. But taxes (eg societies) have given others the security to invent/produce/design/manufacture instead of worrying about basic survival. So if you use the weapons/tools/seeds/skills designed by taxed society but do not pay anything into society, I would call that theft.

  • Olive

    I’m attributing value to society, not taxes. But at the moment taxes are the way our society functions. The point is that you are choosing to benefit from the contributions of other people when it suits you, but complaining about having to make your own contribution.

  • IconoclastTwo

    So if the US government totally abandoned having a military and a racist police force and restricted itself to basically a coast guard (which is I think close to what Costa Rica has actually done) would you still object to paying taxes?

  • Good point. Paying taxes is exactly the same as denying a child healthcare and education. Those things are totally equivalent.

  • Guy Norred

    I fail to see the connection between your comment and Krista’s comment unless you are equating China’s policy with access to birth control and education.

  • daroncrass

    The BBC article says Burundi officials believe “the crackdown on informal relationships [is] needed to combat a population explosion.”

    The government had used the excuse that the policy was needed to combat a population explosion. China has been trying to do the same thing with their one child policy.

  • Guy Norred

    OK, so you are equating Burundi’s policy and China’s policy, at least in terms of imposing required limitations on what might be better left in the realm of personal freedoms. With this I don’t disagree though I have to admit I don’t really understand how encouraging marriage cuts down on childbirth. I also agree with Krista that slowing population growth can be achieved through access to birth control and education.

  • otrotierra

    So no, you haven’t left yet, nor have you booked your one-way ticket. Too busy playing the false victim card?

  • jimoppenheimer

    Terrific. Wonder if the twit, er, guy would even know you’re talking about him

    ;=)

  • jimoppenheimer

    Unfortunately, you’re right. Frank knows he can not compare to daddy, never ever will, but he can and will say stuff to grab, if only for a moment, a bit of the spotlight. Oh, Frank! Give it a rest!

  • Herm

    Bob Shiloh, you do this over and over, again, without any viable evidence to support your claims. Good thing we have the assurance that we will allow most, not all, speech.

    As to insurance you clearly do not understand what makes any financial insurance program work for all while keeping all premiums at their lowest possible rate. In the United States of America it would be all citizens who have the means to pay into that insurance plan pay the same amount into the pool of funds. Since you can’t get from another what they do not have to give those citizens would still be covered as an investment of the people, by the people and for the people in hopes that they may one day, in the future, be healthy and educated enough to earn to pay into the fund.

    Social security and medicare work very well when administered non-profit and all who can afford to pay into the fund do. You can come up with an argument relative to government being irresponsible for those funds if you direct our attention to the fact that congress has over borrowed (it’s one of our national debts unpaid) from the fund rather than let the fund be for only our nation’s physical, mental and social health, as was first intended.

    Play for pay profit motive insurance companies have never subscribed to “single payer” because their stock holders and each of their million dollar CEO’s suffer.

    What law do you subscribe to that allows you to deny healthcare from those of our own who need it in favor of the profits for the wealthy who do not need it? It is too late to find out that you would now have others support you through a serious health problem, that you desperately need today, when you first would not help others through their serious health problems they needed yesterday. In a large collective as is our nation it is only small self-serving minds and hearts that insist on small government to serve only their needs.

  • Blueboyo

    Some earlier day Pharisees tried that old tax dodge a couple of thousand years ago and were properly rebuked: “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s……………….” they were told.

  • Blueboyo

    That, Daron Cross, is simpleminded B.S. Go re-read the history of the U.S. Constitution, During the Civil War an amendment was passed which allowed for an income tax. the 1913 act was a bit of tidying up some confusing case law which had arisen from the malign influence of bozos like you. And try as you might, squirm as you might, and bitch ass you might, you are not going to get rid of the tax nor your tax liability. And it is half vast ideas like that which make Trump voters so dangerous.

  • Whataboutism and pivoting!! I have added some new vocabulary words since 45 was elected!!
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4e3ade376304cd1f8f4cfa34dfefda24f02781aa57c0b9078ff7d29e2456aa67.jpg

  • Blueboyo

    Yes, apparently Saul of Tarsus did wed – he could not have been a member of the groups in which he was so prominent without being the husband of one wife. But it is interesting that he never, not once, ever mentions her. Must have been a bad situation altogether – otherwise you wouldn’t have the old “better to marry than burn,” passage. That fact and the fact that he dwelt with single women and usually traveled about with young men accompanying him has called Saul/Paul’s apparent self-hatred into note.

  • Blueboyo

    “their”

  • Blueboyo

    That would be a “white” all-male committee.

  • Blueboyo

    One of the many upheavals of the Reformation had to do with marriage. In Western Europe up until that time, the Roman Church’s assertion that it controlled the matter of who was and who was not married (and who they were permitted to marry) was unchallenged. That meant the Roman Catholic Church pretty much had a monopoly. In the case of England, the Romans were asserting that if the couple did not come and get married in their approved form and have their names appropriately registered in a Roman parish – which, of course, made them Roman Catholics – they were not married “in the eyes of God.” This caused a clearly foreseeable (to everyone except the Romans, apparently) furor and rebellion. The business of properly registering a marriage was what broke the camel’s back. The solution of course, was to make the State the registrar of marriages. Until that time, the state had no interest in who was or was not married (except in the case of the nobility) Today, in Great Britain and its Commonwealth and in the U.S. and in most of Europe you can be married in accordance with any rite which pleases you. But you are NOT married until the presiding clergyman or judge or whoever, signs the form and returns it to the appropriate office – of the State – or in some countries until you show up at the appropriate governmental office and sign the register. You can register the marriage in the parish register if you like and most Romans do, of course. But legally, you are not married by the rite alone. Your marriage will not be recognized as valid without having fulfilled the requirements of the State and cannot be enforced. Marriage, at that time, became a matter of a secular contract and you could be married, as many people are, by a judge or other approved civil officer. So, for all practical purposes marriage has ceased being a religious, and become a secular, matter in the U.S. and Europe. Thus, Ole Frank Graham and Pres. Nkurunuziza are pretty much whistling up a rain spout. Oh, and the same applies to divorce. You can be a Muslim and repeat “I Divorce You” however many times you want, or you can trot down to the Roman Priest’s office and have him get the Bishop to divorce you, but you are still legally stuck with each other until a judge in a civil court declares you divorced and signs his order.

  • Herm

    That is an excellent short presentation of the evolution of marriage contracts, thank you!

    I find that the contractual secular recognition of a marriage of two people serves best to recognize two working as one. It is the same for contractual secular recognition of many people becoming one in company or corporation. As much as we dread the possibilities of judgment our courts do, more often than naught, an adequate job distributing profit and liability between parties of any legally recorded contract.

    From New Testament scripture I find it easy to separate God’s will and the will of Caesar on the subject of marriage:

    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    Matthew 22:29-32 (NIV2011)

    At least the way I under stand it, you are 100% correct when you state, “Thus, Ole Frank Graham and Pres. Nkurunuziza are pretty much whistling up a rain spout.

    Thanks, again!

  • I understand Obamacare has failed. So does that mean President Obama did not understand what it takes to make an insurance program work? Single Payer is just another Liberal idea that has never worked.

  • Herm

    Number one: only in your own mind has Obamacare failed. The act has failed no more than social security and medicare failed which was fixed very well with bi-partisan support. All the ACA has got from the Republican Party is obstructionism, period. So you don’t really understand Obamacare except from the obstructionist perspective.

    Number two: single payer is the healthcare of choice for all 1st world nations who insure 100% of their citizens successfully. Some of those nations are even more conservative than the USA though much less oligarchian than the USA.

  • Don’t worry Liberalism is on display for all to see and won’t be back for 30 more years like after Carter.
    Free Healthcare is an illusion to snowflakes like a shinny lure.

  • Thanks, Will! Yes. When will people wake up and realize that paying an extra ten cents for my mocha frappe lattiato americano is the moral equivalent of leaving children dying in the streets? I try to explain this to the guys at Starbucks and they just do not care. It just goes to show how much people need the good news of free market capitalism that Jesus came to Earth to share.

  • Herm

    You’re digging deeper into the dark hole of insensitivity to any but yourself. You completely dismiss any reason to the sum of the law and prophets.

    Nothing is free and ALL that we have as responsible stewards was made available to us as one mankind due to none of our efforts; completely and abundantly without merit. We have created nothing that was not here before us. God footed the bill.

    Free Healthcare” is your illusion, not an illusion of those who love their neighbor as themselves liberally enough to invest the funds they are responsible to in a single interest bearing account today to insure support for both, or either, tomorrow. That is the affordable principle of national healthcare.

    What an ugly self-indulgent 1st world nation we live in when we’re the only of those nations who can’t insure 100% of our people for the most health possible.

    What does “illusion” have to do with “snowflakes” and a shinny (shiny?) lure? If I’m being called a name I’d really like to know in reference to what.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Single payer works for the overwhelming majority of the countries in the world that have it, and out of the ones that don’t:

    1) They either want it.

    2) They govern insurance companies (like Switzerland) with a set of regulations so stringent with regards to pricing to prevent the kinds of abuses epidemic to America that if American companies tried to be governed by their rules, they’d probably plead for single payer afterwards.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Strawman. It isn’t free. We’d pay for it with taxes like the postal service or any of the other governmental agencies that actually work.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Snowflake is how reich-wingers refer to people insufficiently vicious unlike themselves because they think that everyone else must be a unique, gentle soul (a “special snowflake”) that will never call them on their BS.

  • Bones

    Funny….I’ve been having free healthcare for 40 years.

    That must annoy snowflakes like you.

  • Herm

    Thank you for that. It explains a lot.

  • Herm

    I am sorry that you’re sad. really

    This makes me wonder what brought you here.

    How do you feel with Jesus’ comment witnessed to in Luke 14:26, 27?

    … or this:

    Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?”

    But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.”

    They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

    “Caesar’s,” they replied. Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

    Matthew 22:17-21 (NIV2011)

  • You forgot the word “mental” in front of healthcare although it is obvious…

  • Liberals are always pushing a “cause” that involves solving it with other peoples money. Liberals are always angry about the “cause” and see conservatives as the problem.
    Free Healthcare is an illusion because it is not and never will be free. People are abusing their bodies with drugs and fail to take care of their bodies by living a healthy lifestyle. People are the problem and people have to be the solution not “free healthcare.”
    I am not calling you a name but I am reminding you that your belief structure is not in accord with scripture even those words spoken by Jesus.

  • Single payer works nowhere. It hasn’t and it won’t. It is another Liberal illusion to grow the Government and make the people dependent upon that Government. Do you not remember that our Government could not even build a website to accommodate Obamacare; has not been able to sustain Obamacare despite having total control of the legislation; lied to the people to get it passed; and now, predictably, blame other (insurance companies, republicans, young people) for its failure.

  • Not sure I understand correctly. Are you saying that the Postal Service works? Why should the government have control of our Healthcare? “Government is not the solution…it is the problem.”

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Are you saying that the Postal Service works?”

    When my mail arrives reliably I’d say yes: it does.

    Why should the government have control of our Healthcare?”

    Because American insurance companies are a plague for starters.

    “Government is not the solution…it is the problem.””

    I’d rather believe the words from all of the people in countries where single payer actually works that I’ve read and heard over your shouted repetitive dogma.

  • Bones

    That’s simple right wing propaganda not based on a skerrick of fact.

    Single payer works in a hell of a lot of countries…

    Your system stinks….and no country wants yours.

  • Bones

    Right wingers are always blaming the victim…..and can’t see past their own ideology.

  • Bones

    No, that would be you.

    You would have to be mental to believe some of the nonsense you write.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Liberals are always pushing a “cause” that involves solving it with other peoples money. Liberals are always angry about the “cause” and see conservatives as the problem.”

    Upwards of 90% of the time they’re right and conservatives ARE the problem. That being said, I’d say that part their problem isn’t that they are always angry but that they’re nowhere near angry enough at your hateful behavior and politics.

    “Free Healthcare is an illusion because it is not and never will be free”

    See: taxes.

    “People are abusing their bodies with drugs and fail to take care of their bodies by living a healthy lifestyle.”

    Newsflash: people who are otherwise healthy get sick or into medical situations that no amount of lifestyle changes were going to address. Especially if as a consequence of your free market dogma corporations are dumping toxic pollution into their environment.

    “People are the problem and people have to be the solution not “free healthcare.”

    Did you get that from a self-help book because I’m not quite sure where that’s even in the bible (as if that would make it right then either….)?

    “I am not calling you a name but I am reminding you that your belief structure is not in accord with scripture even those words spoken by Jesus.”

    No, I’m an atheist anyways and your posts more amply remind me precisely why. I’m also unaware for that matter how or where the NT endorses your generalized cruelty either.

  • Herm

    Mr.Shiloh, I said health care was not free.

    You wrote, “Free Healthcare is an illusion to snowflakes like a shinny lure.

    Associating me to a snowflake is reminding me that my belief structure is not in accord with scripture? And what was, “even those words spoken by Jesus” all about?

    Explain specifically what you were reminding me of, now.

  • Richard Worden Wilson

    Relevance to the article and comment is what exactly?

  • Richard Worden Wilson

    That would most likely be a mistaken assumption (about commenters claiming to follow Jesus). There seem to me to be a plethora of non or anti believers here. Benjamin is good at posing controversial topics, baiting trolls, and leaving a lot of irrelevant content un-challenged.

    Franklin Graham is a fairly easy target because of his poorly reasoned perspectives on numerous issues. Nevertheless, in our anti-marriage culture here in the USA any reminder of the importance and sanctity of marriage should rather be commended at least in part simply for pointing in a direction different from our all too _au currant_ individual identity is everything, I want to “marry myself,” cultural context. A little nuance in the discussion would likely send the trolls into paroxysms of inner-personal anxiousness. Instead they just launch themselves into whatever their own personal felt needs tell them is relevant. And that is truly sad versus what one might see just below, which is just sad because of its irrelevance.(sarcastically stated?)

  • Herm

    Look down!

    I am speaking precisely in concern with and to daroncrass’ comments above and below.

  • Bones

    Speaking of irrelevant – that describes your post….

  • CroneEver

    I kind of thought that was a given.

  • Ron McPherson

    “…government officials have told him that he and his girlfriend face a fine, and that any children they have outside of marriage will not be eligible for medical care or public education. ”

    So if FG thinks this is such a great idea, does this mean any children born outside of marriage will no longer receive help from Samaritan’s purse?

  • The U.S. Postal System is losing $5 billion per year. What business is run like that? Another government Loser.

    We were warned when President Lawless forced Obamacare on this country that it would fail. It did. Now we have to pay to fix his mess and listen to more people say we need “single payer” at the same time. Well it won’t happen in the next eight years.

    President Lawless told the three biggest lies of any president: You can’t keep your Plan; You can’t keep your Doctor and your won’t save $2500 per family you will pay $3000 more. Obamacare is a complete and utter disaster from inception through implementation; now it is dead.

  • Liberals are wrong about the Economy and Jobs, wrong about Healthcare, wrong about Global Warming, wrong about Personal Responsibility and wrong about radical Islamic Terrorists and wrong about Immigration. That is why Donald Trump is our President and not Hillary Clinton.

    My belief structure is from the whole bible. Your problem is that you feel the words of Jesus are somehow apart and more important than the rest of the bible. Has it occurred to you that the entire bible is inspired by God?

    Atheism lasts only until the deathbed. Then the cry is heard, “Oh God help me!” I’ll pray for you….

  • Herm, you have made it perfectly clear that you are in contact with the Spirit who guides you without need for the bible ( written by a bunch of old men ). What you may not be aware of is the nature of the Spirit you associate with…

  • Herm

    You didn’t explain what scripture you say supports you, especially those words spoken by Jesus. We have the same written scripture to compare with one another. Where are your spiritually supporting words in the Christian Bible, any translation?

  • IconoclastTwo

    “The U.S. Postal System is losing $5 billion per year.”

    Because conservatives who think like you forced upon it a ridiculous standard with regards to pensions that no other agency anywhere else works with. You go out of your way to make it fail and then you say that it failed-overlooking that it’s totally your fault that it did.

    “What business is run like that?”

    Donald Trump’s.

    “We were warned when President Lawless forced Obamacare on this country that it would fail.”

    Liar.

    He didn’t force the AHA on the country. He went through the proper procedures to make it legislation even though I would’ve preferred single payer, and I do think that his refusal to push for single payer (as well as the timing for it) was a mistake. If anything, his failure was that as liberals have usually done (to this country’s downfall) he bent over backwards to either appease conservatives hoping that you’d be more reasonable than you actually are or hope that you would be better than what the process revealed you all to be-whether you were democrats or republicans.

    By the way, did you really believe that there were ‘death panels’ in it?

    “President Lawless told the three biggest lies of any president: You can’t keep your Plan; You can’t keep your Doctor and your won’t save $2500 per family you will pay $3000 more. Obamacare is a complete and utter disaster from inception through implementation; now it is dead.”

    Despite my opinion of it compared to single payer it’s not a failure to all of the people who got medical coverage that they otherwise wouldn’t have because insurance companies would’ve refused to cover them. They’re alive because of it.

    I’m guessing their survival doesn’t matter to you one whit.

  • IconoclastTwo

    I don’t recall where “let people die” was in the beatitudes.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Liberals are wrong about the Economy and Jobs,”

    Then why is it that its republicans who tank the kinds of standards you allegedly care so much about more than democrats? I think liberals are wrong because they go nowhere near far enough and in fact institutionally prevent this, but if you’re that obsessed with the deficit as just one measure every time republicans have been in power, whether on a state level like Kansas or Louisiana, or nationally, their policies of tax cutting for the superwealthy and massive defense spending (which applies only nationally) have added a couple zeros onto that debt you’re so obsessed with.

    “wrong about Healthcare,”

    See other response.

    “wrong about Global Warming,”

    Because let me guess-all of that 90% of climatologists and respected scientists that agree its happening based on evidence are all part of a secret conspiracy to bring about ‘Murca’s downfall, right?

    “wrong about Personal Responsibility”

    Which seems to be your true religion.

    “and wrong about radical Islamic Terrorists and wrong about Immigration.”

    So what’s your ideal solution to islamic terrorists? I already suspect it involves nuclear weapons but I want it to come out of the digital equivalent of your own mouth.

    “That is why Donald Trump is our President and not Hillary Clinton.”

    He’s president because the American political system is terrible on multiple levels which allowed Republicans to cheat and illegally disenfranchise voters (in addition to other ways), I freely admit that she was a lousy candidate, and there has always been a sizable portion of Americans who would support someone like him no matter how much he screws up because they hate other Americans for racist/religious reasons.

    “My belief structure is from the whole bible.”

    Even when it contradicts itself.

    “Your problem is that you feel the words of Jesus are somehow apart and more important than the rest of the bible.”

    If you’re supposed to be a christian then yes, that’s generally what I think and furthermore that’s what christians have been telling me for years. The actions of many of you speak differently and much louder, however.

    Your problem is that you are a fundamentally mean and cruel person and you want a religion to support you with this. However, you can’t be honest with yourself about it so you latch onto interpretations that’ll tell you what you want to hear/never wanted to change your mind about. As they grow more and more ludicrous you hang onto them in an Orwellian fashion as if each insanity was more truthful than the last one.

    “Has it occurred to you that the entire bible is inspired by God?”

    No, because it’s _not_. Upwards of half of it isn’t even historically truthful. There was no great flood, no earth created in seven days, people didn’t used to live until they were 400-500 years old in antediluvian period, not even an exodus.

    “Atheism lasts only until the deathbed. Then the cry is heard, “Oh God help me!”

    Lots of people stay atheists until the deathbed. Then again, evidence isn’t exactly going to change your mind, is it?

    “I’ll pray for you….”

    Except as a passive aggressive statement that’s meaningless. At least, unlike your politics, you won’t be doing anything that can actually hurt people in the real world.

  • The US Postal system is falling because Government cannot run businesses. That is what the private sector does well: ask FedEx and UPS.

    The ACA passed only because Democrats controlled the House and Senate and had to bribe senators at that.
    “With the bill hanging in the balance, Nelson won a provision exempting his state from paying the usual share of costs for new Medicaid patients. The deal critics have dubbed the Cornhusker Kickback is expected to cost the federal government $100 million over 10 years.”

    The bill contained Death Panels and Jail for people who refused to purchase Healthcare. Only because those provisions were exposed were they removed.

    Giving free Healthcare to 11 million people while destroying the system was a big mistake. You believe it was done for some Liberal utopia. It was done to buy votes for the future of the Democrat Party. But that did not work. Having Healthcare and using it are two different things. How do you know what lives it saved? You don’t.

  • You cannot see past your bitterness. Remember envy and bitterness rots the bones.
    The correct mantra from the Left is that 98% of climatologists agree on Global Warming. This is a fundamentally flawed statement because many are afraid of what the Liberal Media will do to them if they disagree. But don’t worry after 8 years of President Trump you won’t remember this blip in the road.
    Well I guess that’s why this site is called Formerly Fundie?

  • Grow up! Try reading once in a while.

    Service Alerts
    U.S. Postal Service Reports Fiscal Year 2016 Results

    November 15, 2016

    Net loss of $5.6 billion, driven by mandated retiree health benefits expenses
    Controllable income of $610 million
    Continued double-digit growth in revenue and volume in the Shipping and Packages business
    Enactment of postal reform legislation remains urgently needed
    WASHINGTON – After accounting for a $5.8 billion retiree health benefit prefunding obligation, the U.S. Postal Service posted a net loss of approximately $5.6 billion for fiscal year 2016 (October 1, 2015 – September 30, 2016), as compared to a $5.1 billion net loss for the year ended September 30, 2015. Excluding this prefunding obligation, the Postal Service would have recorded net income of approximately $200 million in 2016.

  • Typical Pastafarian comment.

    Businesses have to account for their liabilities. All large businesses have pension funds. You cannot run a business with healthcare benefits and then say they don’t really count. $5.6 billion in unfunded liabilities is an enormous malfeasance. The Post Office should be in bankruptcy.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “You cannot see past your bitterness. Remember envy and bitterness rots the bones.”

    So since you’ve got no actual facts on your side to dispute me you feebly attempt to make this about my personality. Got it.

    The questions/points that you are dodging include:

    “If you’re that obsessed with the deficit as just one measure every time republicans have been in power, whether on a state level like Kansas or Louisiana, or nationally, their policies of tax cutting for the superwealthy and massive defense spending (which applies only nationally) have added a couple zeros onto that debt you’re so obsessed with.”

    What is your solution to Islamic terrorism?

    “The correct mantra from the Left is that 98% of climatologists agree on Global Warming. This is a fundamentally flawed statement because many are afraid of what the Liberal Media will do to them if they disagree.”

    What liberal media? The media bent over backwards to give Trump practically exponentially more coverage than Clinton (even if it was negative), much less Sanders.

    Of course, this non-argument of yours can be used to make any point really. It isn’t that they honestly can’t find any scientific facts to support your ideas; it’s that everyone is too terrified of the liberal media.

    Like I’ve said before: conservatives are the real moral relativists-because you have no standards of truth whatsoever other than what’ll support your ideology.

    “But don’t worry after 8 years of President Trump you won’t remember this blip in the road.”

    People are going to be remembering Trump for a very long time. They just won’t be remembering him well or kindly.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “The US Postal system is falling because Government cannot run businesses. That is what the private sector does well: ask FedEx and UPS.”

    Then how did the postal service manage to function just fine for all of those centuries before Republicans decided that it was something else they could wreck?

    “The ACA passed only because Democrats controlled the House and Senate and had to bribe senators at that.
    “With the bill hanging in the balance, Nelson won a provision exempting his state from paying the usual share of costs for new Medicaid patients. The deal critics have dubbed the Cornhusker Kickback is expected to cost the federal government $100 million over 10 years.”

    LIke I said before: Obama went through the proper (at least in terms of traditional) procedure to get legislation passed. Do I think this was right? No, I don’t-but he didn’t do anything that Republicans haven’t done thousands of times themselves when they had power. For that matter given Trump’s policies of “swamp rerouting” instead of “swamp drainage” Republicans don’t really object to this in general either.

    “The bill contained Death Panels and Jail for people who refused to purchase Healthcare. Only because those provisions were exposed were they removed.”

    Jail for refusal of purchase yes, is wrong. As for ‘death panels’ point to a single specific clause even if it was later removed that actually said that.

    “Giving free Healthcare to 11 million people while destroying the system was a big mistake.”

    The system was a mess before Obama did anything. Your ideology doesn’t do anything to solve the types of problems that it has because it can’t. You just blame the victims for getting sick and not having money to pay for it.

    “You believe it was done for some Liberal utopia. It was done to buy votes for the future of the Democrat Party. But that did not work. Having Healthcare and using it are two different things. How do you know what lives it saved? You don’t.”

    I certainly believe the people who’ve said that it did save them-as well as all of the people that I’ve heard talk about how terrible their rates were and how little they got for their money before it.

  • Herm

    The Republican House of Representatives mandated that the USPS fund all retirement in total. This was a fraudulent effort to privatize the USPS which hasn’t worked so far because the direct management has been keeping the USPS afloat. NO OTHER COMPANY IN THE WORLD IS REQUIRED TO HAVE ALL POSSIBLE USPS RETIREMENT PRE-FUNDED, NONE.

    The USPS still delivers for all the other private delivery services where they cannot reach. The USPS is very efficient, delivering anything everywhere, even when having to answer to five different governmental oversight bodies outside of the USPS direct management.

    If your party of choice would not obstruct to force privatization the USPS would be a model of safety, efficiency and profitability.

    I retired from the USPS and part of my retirement is from them. As my wife retired from the SSA, and we can only have one federal health insurance, my health is insured under her plan. You party insisted that the USPS still prefund my health benefits that I cannot legally use.

    You are an uninformed, propagandized, irresponsible idiot if you don’t know how to research further for the truth! … especially before you make it clear to others who know the truth first hand.

  • kaydenpat

    “Our government is violently forcing me to pay taxes. They will lock me in a cage if I do not comply. This is also morally wrong.”

    When you make “arguments” like this, don’t be surprised that people push back and call you out.

  • kaydenpat

    No one was subjected to going to jail in regard to the ACA. Cite your source for such an outlandish and untrue claim.

  • kaydenpat

    Healthcare for all works perfectly well in England, Canada and many other developed countries.

  • kaydenpat

    Spouting a claim over and over again doesn’t make it true. I grew up in Canada and can tell you that healthcare for all works perfectly well up there and in other European countries (and other developed countries).

  • kaydenpat

    “shinny”?

  • kaydenpat

    Exactly.

  • Perhaps you have forgotten that jail was part of Obamacare?

    The letter written by Thomas Barthold, chief of staff of the House Joint Committee on Taxation, to Rep. Dave Camp of Michigan, on the subject of enforcing the individual health insurance mandate of H.R. 3962, the House-passed bill.
    Barthold letter, Nov. 5: Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

    Section 7203 – misdemeanor wilful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
    Section 7201 – felony wilful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.

  • Wrong again. Canadian wait times force many Canadians to come to the USA to see a doctor. It’s wait times are worse than the VA.

  • kaydenpat

    My family lives in Canada. They’re perfectly fine with their healthcare and laugh about the ridiculousness of American conservatives. I grew up in Canada and I can tell you from personal experience that the healthcare there was excellent. You don’t go bankrupt from serious medical crises which is what happens in the US all the time.

    And with Trumpcare bringing back “pre-existing conditions” as an impediment, things are about to get a whole lot worse for average Americans.

  • I lived in Canada also. The system is very expensive and not as good. if it were what you say we would have it. The population of the US is ten times that of Canada. The comparison is specious:

    One commonly cited comparison, the 2000 World Health Organization’s ratings of “overall health service performance”, which used a “composite measure of achievement in the level of health, the distribution of health, the level of responsiveness and fairness of financial contribution”, ranked Canada 30th and the US 37th among 191 member nations. This study rated the US “responsiveness”, or quality of service for individuals receiving treatment, as 1st, compared with 7th for Canada. However, the average life expectancy for Canadians was 80.34 years compared with 78.6 years for residents of the US.[9]

  • Bones

    Because Canada is right next door derp….The US has long wait times as well….

    And many Americans (2%!) buy their prescription drugs from Canada.

    http://kdvr.com/2015/03/25/americas-favorite-illegal-canadian-import-prescription-drugs/

    And hundreds of thousands of Americans leave the US over health care….

    “A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were travelling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.

    The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists travelled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).

    The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners travelling to the U.S. for medical care, whereas the low costs for hospital stays and major/complex procedures at Western-accredited medical facilities abroad are cited as major motivators for American travellers.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

  • The deficit will be halved in the first four years of Trump riding him in a repeat wave. Prediction Bob Shiloh 6-3-17.

    For starters: Islamic Terrorists must be destroyed from the face of the earth by any and all means. Countries that support or harbor terrorists must be punished until they stop. People must not be taught in any Mosque that Islam demands non-believers be killed in the name of Allah, etc.
    What is your solution?

    The Liberal Media tried to destroy Trump’s campaign at all costs and are apoplectic that they could not.

    That same error in judgment was made when Reagan was elected. Trump has been proved right over and over again simply because he tells the truth something Liberals cannot stand.

  • IconoclastTwo

    This is becoming a bad habit that your facts provided don’t support your assertions…

    “ranked Canada 30th and the US 37th among 191 member nations.”

    Right. 30th is better than 37th so their single payer system works better-with regards to that criterion-than the American insurance/HMO system.

    “This study rated the US “responsiveness”, or quality of service for individuals receiving treatment, as 1st, compared with 7th for Canada.”

    There’s a catch to this in that it’s only counting individuals receiving treatment. If individuals are filtered out of the system through pre-existing conditions (which a single payer system won’t have) then they don’t receive treatment and therefore won’t show up in that statistic.

    If you also added in as a metric “individuals denied treatment” then single payer again would look much better.

    “However, the average life expectancy for Canadians was 80.34 years compared with 78.6 years for residents of the US.[9]”

    In other words, almost two years better.

  • This debate is fine but pedantic. If Obama’s policies had worked Hillary would be President but they did not and she isn’t; Trump is President.

    Point: Obama wanted to be a big deal and sign the Paris Climate Accord. He needed Senate confirmation to do so. Rather than “Obama went through the proper (at least in terms of traditional) procedure to get legislation passed” he issued an Executive Order. Now it is gone because He could not get it passed despite all the claims of how many people want it, etc.

  • Idiot is best described by he who wrote the words above.

    You and I (the taxpayers) forked over the $5B the last two years to keep the system going. Why? Why isn’t it fixed? Why can’t government run anything profitable?

    If the retirement fund gets over funded then those funds will be returned to operating expenses.

  • kaydenpat

    That’s nonsense. Ask any Canadian if they’d want the mess Americans call healthcare and they’d laugh in your face. That’s why you don’t see any movement to alter their healthcare system.

    Polls show that the majority of Americans now support the ACA. That’s probably why your President and your Party hasn’t passed the AHCA even though they are in full control of Congress.

  • Anecdotal but not dispositive.

  • And many Australians buy their heroin from the US….

  • Good. You may yet outlive me so you can continue this post after I’m gone…

  • Herm

    id·i·ot – ˈidēət/Submit – nouninformal –
    a stupid person.
    synonyms: fool, ass, halfwit, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, cretin, moron, imbecile, simpleton; More

    – MEDICINE archaic –
    a mentally handicapped person.

    stu·pid – ˈst(y)o͞opəd/Submit –
    adjective-
    having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
    synonyms: unintelligent, ignorant, dense, foolish, dull-witted, slow, simpleminded, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, imbecilic, imbecile, obtuse, doltish; More

    You didn’t read either of the explanations presented to you, independently, of which you didn’t research outside of your self serving, conservative “Thoughtless Tank” of choice.

    Choose any one of the descriptive words above, surely one or all must be the overwhelming reason for a member of mankind who can write so much without comprehension, sympathy, empathy, or compassion of and for your species. You really do make me sick.

    Thank you for representing your cancerous faction so clearly to the rest of the body of mankind who really do care for their own. The professional media are now completely vindicated from any direct charge of fake news from your lord twit and chief.

  • Seriously. You think a poll showing Americans now support Obamacare is reality? President Trump was elected to “repeal and replace” Obamacare and that is what he will do and what the American people want him to do.

    Has it occurred to you that people should take responsibility for their health? The best Healthcare in the world will not stop the current onslaught of obesity and disease. Only the educated individual can do that.

  • Bones

    Do they?

    Then that’s one thing you are good at.

    What a strange response…..to having been shown to be a liar.

  • Bones

    Most of the world probably will……while you die defending your ridiculous health care system.

  • Bones

    Lol….this blame the victim doesn’t work….

    No wonder you like your expensive health care system….

  • People who espouse controversial theories cannot afford to be sensitive. People who reject the bible as the Word of God will never know God. These people are relegated to mundane self-serving responses.

    Translation: Liberalism is dead in this country for now and some time to come.

  • Bones

    That would be you….Found Obama’s birth certificate yet?

  • Herm

    Nothing will settle anything simply with real live facts for you.

  • Herm

    Settle this, where are the scriptures that support your rejection of God so who so loves the world, the whole world.

    If you continue to insist on being insensitive to all things of the heart everything of mankind and God will remain controversial theories for you. Listed in order of importance: heart, soul, strength and mind the component of spirit of which you are first and foremost responsible to, in the image of God, is the heart you choose to desensitize.

    God is dead in your heart, soul, strength, mind. Why are you here?

  • Bones

    Lol….even US employers are sending employees to other countries including Mexico to save costs….

    “Employer-sponsored health care in the US
    Some US employers have begun exploring medical travel programs as a way to cut employee health care costs. Such proposals have raised stormy debates between employers and trade unions representing workers, with one union stating that it deplored the “shocking new approach” of offering employees overseas treatment in return for a share of the company’s savings. The unions also raise the issues of legal liability should something go wrong, and potential job losses in the US health care industry if treatment is outsourced.

    Employers may offer incentives such as paying for air travel and waiving out-of-pocket expenses for care outside of the US. For example, in January 2008, Hannaford Bros., a supermarket chain based in Maine, began paying the entire medical bill for employees to travel to Singapore for hip and knee replacements, including travel for the patient and companion. Medical travel packages can integrate with all types of health insurance, including limited benefit plans, preferred provider organizations and high deductible health plans.

    In 2000, Blue Shield of California began the United State’s first cross border health plan. Patients in California could travel to one of the three certified hospitals in Mexico for treatment under California Blue Shield. In 2007, a subsidiary of BlueCross BlueShield of South Carolina, Companion Global Healthcare, teamed up with hospitals in Thailand, Singapore, Turkey, Ireland, Costa Rica and India. A 2008 article in Fast Company discusses the globalization of healthcare and describes how various players in the US healthcare market have begun to explore it.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

  • IconoclastTwo

    Everything you’ve said has been self serving in the worst possible way. I gain nothing from what I’ve said and advocate except for better health care and living in a better, fairer society for all its members. You, in comparison, are so motivated by spite and a desire to shove your sick ideas up the asses of everyone else that you’d rather see them die just as long as you can tell yourself that you’re still right.

  • Bones

    It’s clear you don’t know God as you don’t give a shit if people die or not.

    ” Liberalism is dead in this country for now and some time to come.”

    No…over half the country voted for someone else….

  • IconoclastTwo

    …if flying to all of these countries is actually cheaper than treatment here then that signals in Rushmore sized letters the scale of the problem.

  • Bones

    Shoosh or Bob will call you a Pastafarian….

    Is that a new right wing term?

  • LUX

    Guess he didn’t read 1 Corinthians 7:8?

  • Our society is the fairest society on earth and that has ever been. You seem to miss that point. These are not just my ideas but the ideas of many who want to save our country from the sickness that is Liberalism which has now spread into every area like a plague. No one dies in this country from lack of healthcare unless they want to. Do you see people lined up in the doorways of the emergency rooms? Do you see people begging for medicine in the streets? No you see the Liberal Media trying to place shame on our great country so they can feel good about themselves.

  • Because I choose to be….

  • Herm

    lol

  • Bones

    Lol…..companies are sending their employees to other countries where it’s 90% cheaper…..

    You might end up having your heart bypass in Mexico….where it’s $100 000 cheaper….

    Why are self-insured companies turning to medical tourism?

    http://www.healthcareresearchcenter.org/why-are-self-insured-companies-turning-to-medical-tourism/

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Our society is the fairest society on earth and that has ever been.”

    You have to be literally insane in order to believe this. I won’t sugarcoat or be nicer to you than you deserve when I say that.

  • Herm

    What is a pastafarian?
    The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is the deity of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Pastafarianism (a portmanteau of pasta and Rastafarian), a social movement that promotes a light-hearted view of religion and opposes the teaching of intelligent design and creationism in public schools.

    Bones, I will vouch for you in any court of religion.

    * you do not promote a light-hearted view of religion if such means a relationship with God, as does Bob Shiloh (if totally without is considered light).

    *you do not oppose the teaching of intelligent design but Bob Shiloh has yet to comprehend intelligent much less design.

    *I’m sorry for this but Bob’s pretty much got you pegged dead to rights on one very significant point to him and his; you do appear to oppose the teaching of creationism in seven of earth’s rotations around its sun —- you
    southern hemisphere pastafarian you, shame, shame, shame.

    *wait … good news … you too can visit the church that so intrigues our ever devout Bob Shiloh at:

    https://www.venganza.org/about/

    Please, tell him hi for me!! Just smile, like you care, and understand when he asks, “how high?”

  • Herm

    >>>> your loss <<<<

  • Blueboyo

    Obviously, Bob, you do not understand the entire theory of insurance. Do you? The premise upon which insurance is built is absolutely dependent on the notion of “shared risk.” Yes the young buy insurance although they may never need it. And indeed it helps to pay the claims of older people AND of younger people who become ill or suffer an accident contrary to their usual expectations – happens all the time. In order to figure out who pays what, the more people covered means the overall risk is spread around, more or less evenly and is consequently lower. I have never but once on a $245.00 claim in 1966, Thank God, needed my automobile insurance – But I might have. And some day, no doubt I will need it – then the extra money I contributed will be returned plus more. Same with health insurance. If you take out all the sick, or most likely to become sick people, of course the young and healthy are paying more for benefits, than they might have if they were in a group of only healthy people. it is to be hoped they never need it – BUT THEY MIGHT ! We all know, hell even you know, examples of presumably healthy young people hit with horrendous medical bills. If their benefits were to be paid out of a premium pool drawn from only healthy people which would very soon run out of money. And, eventually, EVERYONE will need health care insurance – everyone. And whether you are young and healthy or older and suffering from ill health how much you pay depends, not on how healthy you are at that moment, but on the insurer’s experience with your class of policy holder. You have, then spread the risk If you do not of course, premiums will become absurd for older people UNLESS everybody is in their class of insured. That, little man, is why we have insurance. If you can’t get your arms around that concept, I suggest you go get yourself a license as an insurance agent. (It is easy – even Sen. Jimm Imhofe, the inane climate change denier from Oklahoma, is a licensed insurance agent.) If you manage to pass the licensing exam, you will have learned how this works and you won’t look like such a total tool nattering on about something you know nothing whatever about right out in public.

  • Brandon Roberts

    forcing people to get married will end up in more dysfunctional families and kids who grow up to become criminals imo

  • If you have never lived abroad you have no perspective to make that judgment.

  • Well self-deluded one, Obamacare was not about shared risk pools for Healthcare. It was about providing free Healthcare for millions of people who did not have insurance and finding a way to force others to pay for it (the Liberal Way). The Democrats had total freedom to write the bill any way they wanted and still managed to screw it up. Why? Because Democrats are not very smart in the end are they?

    Despite hiding the more onerous provisions in 1200 pages of text and giving the Secretary broad powers to go forward we the people still learned about the Death Panels and the Jail Time for non-compliance.

    In the end the Supreme Court had to posit Obamacare as a Tax to uphold this stinking Law but it still Failed in front of your eyes and the eyes of insurance agents. Your comment about “returned plus more is a “Ponzi Scheme” which shows that your are as ignorant as the rest of the people in this thread.

    While Obama and his cohorts laughed at us you and other Liberals like you ate it up. Here is what your Prince and his disciple thought of you and your assessment above:

    Obamacare Architect: Americans ‘Too Stupid to Understand’

    Curtis Kalin By Curtis Kalin | November 12, 2014 | 9:36 AM EST
    Days before he revealed the multiple deceptions involved with President Obama’s healthcare law, MIT professor Jonathan Gruber, a administration adviser who helped craft the Affordable Care Act, again called the American people “stupid.”

    So I guess the shoe does fit….and who is the “total tool” you foolish Liberal?

  • kaydenpat

    Not going to continue this back and forth with you. Good luck with your President pasdingbTrumpcare though. Lol.

  • Herm

    Our society is the fairest society on earth and that has ever been.

    You have to be literally insane in order to believe this. I have lived abroad; Asian, European, Middle Eastern, South American, Caribbean, and South Pacific.

    Will you next reminisce pining for the good ole’ days when mankind was God’s gift to all, the all who were watching over God’s perfect seven day masterpiece (God’s crowning glory), as all the heavens revolved around your species’ majestic unspoiled garden? From where, and from whom, did all those imperfect others spawn to raise such Cain in the world of mine, mine, mine alone’s heavenly bliss, oh, so well deserved by only those who were most Able to earn their way according to God’s will. It made so much more sense when the world was so flat that none of the real God’s perfect creation could possibly fall from their well earned status as the center of God’s focus. How could life on earth for me and mine have regressed so far left, by them and theirs, when we of the divine right were made so perfect?

    You think you are God’s gift to your God given right by soldering bravely against the pervasive progressive liberal left in smugly pointing out, in their face, how your brilliance is bringing all things back to those divine days of the garden where all things can be earned and nothing is just graced and shared for the whole social good as one body in the image of God.

    We don’t defy you in fear of your superiority. We defend all who are so loved by the God we know, no matter whether they know Them or not, from evil. Is that what you wish to be, the point man for destructive, fragmenting, and self-indulgent evil?

    Where are those scriptures?

  • IconoclastTwo

    If you’ve never been black in America you have no perspective to make your judgment.

  • Then why that response? President Trump doesn’t have to get a Healthcare Bill passed. That is the job of the Senate and Congress. If they don’t they should be voted out. And When Obamacare implodes then no one will have Healthcare. Perhaps we can all go to Canada and Mexico for a while.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “This debate is fine but pedantic. If Obama’s policies had worked Hillary would be President but they did not and she isn’t; Trump is President.”

    Trump is president because Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate, there are a lot of bigots (who vote) and fundamentalists (who overlook that Trump if they meant any of their beliefs at all epitomizes everything they ought to think is wrong with a person) who vote/voted him, and he was a better liar than she was.

    “Point: Obama wanted to be a big deal and sign the Paris Climate Accord. He needed Senate confirmation to do so. Rather than “Obama went through the proper (at least in terms of traditional) procedure to get legislation passed” he issued an Executive Order. Now it is gone because He could not get it passed despite all the claims of how many people want it, etc.”

    Because Republicans in congress had abdicated their responsibility to do anything at all. They had it in for Obama in every possible way that they had any power and wasted everyone’s time pulling stunts like throwing snowballs in session to ‘prove’ there’s no global warming because there’s still winter.

  • Roc Kit

    So, there have now been years to read the ACA. I’m sure by now someone has quoted and contextualized the part that created the Death Panels.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “The deficit will be halved in the first four years of Trump riding him in a repeat wave. Prediction Bob Shiloh 6-3-17.”

    I suspect you said much the same thing when Bush II stole the elections.

    “For starters: Islamic Terrorists must be destroyed from the face of the earth by any and all means. Countries that support or harbor terrorists must be punished until they stop. People must not be taught in any Mosque that Islam demands non-believers be killed in the name of Allah, etc.”

    So if I understand you correctly:

    1) You’re basically going to go to war with 1 billion plus people-because while they’re obviously not all Islamic terrorists and a staggeringly large majority of them *aren’t* they’re not going to want to be occupied indefinitely (because who would?) while you:

    2) Police all mosques to make sure that their teachings meet your approval-a standard which of course is never applied to white Christians even though you’re a lot more violent right here in the United States. However, even this wouldn’t be enough because that kind of overweening oppression never kills off crimethink as much as it drives it underground, so you’d need to be even more controlling in generally any social situation as well.

    “What is your solution?”

    Have you ever thought of not funding them, either directly or indirectly, or harboring them for starters? If the official story is correct then the man who committed the Manchester attack belonged to an anti-Qaddafi terrorist group that the UK government had been harboring and protecting for years knowing exactly who they were as people.

    End the occupations, the drone bombings, and the support for dictatorships/autocracies/ethnocracies like Israel.

    “The Liberal Media tried to destroy Trump’s campaign at all costs and are apoplectic that they could not.

    That same error in judgment was made when Reagan was elected. Trump has been proved right over and over again simply because he tells the truth something Liberals cannot stand.”

    Practically nothing that Trump has said has been true, or a good idea-and even the staggeringly few things he said that were somewhat decent he basically walked back.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Or we could just give up on your bad ideas as well as the status quo (actually not a big difference) and just get single payer in the form of Medicare for All like we should’ve had in the first place.

  • I cannot be black in America. But I have been white in Nigeria. I watched as the police slapped our driver to the ground and kicked him because he did not offer enough dash to satisfy them. We had to lock ourselves behind a jail door on the second floor at night to sleep despite our security guard. Tribal law still exists in black Africa discrimination is palpable throughout the country. There is no comparison to our country anywhere in the world.

    America is the land of opportunity for all. Why do you think our borders are flooded with immigrants? They are coming here in droves hoping for a better life. America has clean water and food, transportation systems and electricity that works, jobs and laws that protect our way of life. If you think America is not fair enough then you have not been to other countries to experience the difference.

  • The people have spoken on that election. They have had enough. They wants jobs and security – not excuses.

    Obama for all his oratory lacked the fundamental ability required of a politician. He does not like interacting with people and had no idea how to govern. After he forced through Obamacare the people took Congress away from him in the 2010 midterms. He did not run on Healthcare and the people did not want it. His gamble backfired and we are still debating it this morning except the Democrats are now completely demoralized.

    If “98% of all scientists and climatologists” agree that Global Warming is the single biggest threat to our way of life then why would the Senate not ratify Obama’s inclusion into the Paris Accord? You really believe that our Senators would rather kill their grandchildren to spite Obama. The reason is because the Paris Accord is bogus, not in America’s interest, and our President has exposed the lunacy of this agreement which has nothing to do with Global Warming but everything to do with MONEY!

  • And apparently you missed the discussions while watching network Fake News.

  • Roc Kit

    Fair enough. I’d appreciate a link to help me get up to speed.

  • I and others would disagree with your foreign policy solution.
    Maybe when Iran destroys Israel with a nuclear weapon (courtesy of Obama) they will have a change of heart and decide not to destroy America.
    Hopefully they will exclude Canada so all of our injured can go there for medical attention since it is so much better.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “I and others would disagree with your foreign policy solution.”

    I’m sure you would. My ideas don’t have a death toll attached. I’ll just add ‘extreme bloodlust’ to the list of things where you’re not very ‘Christlike’.

    Edited to add: you’re also using the same bull fearmongering that the Bush/Cheney (mostly Cheney…) administration used to get the US into a war based on demonstrably false premises.

    “Maybe when Iran destroys Israel with a nuclear weapon (courtesy of Obama) they will have a change of heart and decide not to destroy America.”

    Courtesy of Obama…what would you do if you didn’t have him to blame for everything?

    You mean those nuclear weapons Iran supposedly has that they’ve supposedly (according to Netanyahu) making and were going to have in ten years ten and twenty years ago? Wake up-he (Netanyahu), as usual, is lying and Iran doesn’t have nuclear weapons (or for that matter is all that likely to get them considering that if they struck first they’d get annihilated for it).

    Iran probably never would’ve had a fundamentalist theocracy in the first place if it hadn’t been for an American and British sponsored coup in the 1950s.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “The people have spoken on that election. They have had enough. They wants jobs and security – not excuses.”

    Americans would be lucky if they only got excuses from Trump and he’s not going to bring about jobs or security either. Not when he appoints the same Republicans that destroyed everything else they’ve gotten their hands on (when he bothers making appointments at all) and is more interested in setting Americans against each other than anything else.

    “Obama for all his oratory lacked the fundamental ability required of a politician. He does not like interacting with people and had no idea how to govern. After he forced through Obamacare the people took Congress away from him in the 2010 midterms.”

    No, the people didn’t do that: Republicans did-and a significant portion of how was through lies about ‘death panels’ and how Obamacare was going to kill poor Trig in Alaska and similar nonsense. They also said, very clearly among themselves, that they were going to do everything they could to make sure that Obama failed.

    I don’t hold the Democrats to be blameless but I absolutely know that the Republicans have far more culpability.

    “If “98% of all scientists and climatologists” agree that Global Warming is the single biggest threat to our way of life then why would the Senate not ratify Obama’s inclusion into the Paris Accord?”

    Because Senators are mostly idiots if they’re Republicans who are bribed with shovels full of cash not to pay attention to anything except what makes their donors happy and pander to people like you. If they’re Democrats they’ve mostly been selected by a process mostly that weeds out the kinds of people who are good at political adamancy and replaces that with people who are good with technicalities, but have little in the way of positive vision.

    The House is even worse.

    “You really believe that our Senators would rather kill their grandchildren to spite Obama.”

    Absolutely I believe that. Nobody in high government right now really gives a damn about the American people or the planet after themselves.

    “The reason is because the Paris Accord is bogus, not in America’s interest, and our President has exposed the lunacy of this agreement which has nothing to do with Global Warming but everything to do with MONEY!”

    What a shocking conspiracy theory that I’ve never heard from fossil fuel shills a million times before. Wait, let me guess-and the scientists promoting this diabolical scheme stand to make millions from it which they’ll use to sleep on bunk beds made from the best chromatographs money can buy, right?

    In fact even some people in the Trump administration didn’t think pulling out was a good idea…

  • Yes. Let’s add Ben’s Pacifism and what would Christ do to the issue of Islamic Terrorism. Our government is not a Theocracy but a Democratic Republic. If you have a problem with that you have your vote.

    You see Liberalism is the problem not the solution. No borders, no guns, no jails, no responsibility for self, no talk of God, no religion, no accountability, no military, free Healthcare, no Free Speech at our Universities…this must be the solution

  • Welcome to our world for eight years. You can wake up every day from now on wondering what will happen to your world just as we had to do with the past administration.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Yes. Let’s add Ben’s Pacifism and what would Christ do to the issue of Islamic Terrorism. Our government is not a Theocracy but a Democratic Republic. If you have a problem with that you have your vote.”

    Do you think that contraception and abortion should be legal or not?

    “You see Liberalism is the problem not the solution. No borders, no guns, no jails, no responsibility for self, no talk of God, no religion, no accountability, no military, free Healthcare, no Free Speech at our Universities…this must be the solution”

    Half of that is just caricaturing to convince yourself that you’re right. Of course there’d be talk of god. You just wouldn’t get to shove it down everyone else’s throats via the law-and of course there’d be free speech at universities. You’re also trying to shift the argument again.

    Another important point that ought to be considered (but unsurprisingly, you didn’t) is the issue of evidence all over again. Both Democrats and Republicans, as much as you probably like to sneer about how ‘soft’ Obama was because he’s secretly ‘one of them’, have pretty much done exactly what you’ve wanted. They’ve both overthrown governments massively, shredded the constitution, continued occupations both directly and indirectly, supported coup governments that were cooperative to their capitalist geopolitical objectives, et cetera.

    Problems with terrorism have only grown worse. This ought to tell you that more of the same, or more extreme with more bombs, isn’t going to work.

    You know who terrorists _don’t_ routinely attack? Countries and people that aren’t occupiers.

  • Dom S

    So let me get this straight (no pun intended). He and Christian anti-LGBT bigots like him were against same sex marriage because they erroneously assumed that its legalization would force people to marry someone of the same gender. But on the flip side, he’s okay with forcing straight people to do this? Sounds to me like, once again, it’s not LGBT people that are discriminating or acting against the interests of straight people. It’s one of their own.

  • Dom S

    Individual identity? Anti-marriage culture? “I want to marry myself?” Pretty sure, if anything, the reason why people, particularly younger ones, are marrying less, is due to lack of a solid economic foundation and not because we’re just “selfish.” That’s near-sighted and stupid to assume. You can’t just expect people to marry because you want them to when they don’t have their own financial affairs in order, and all for the sake of preserving some “culture” you feel is bygone. Honestly, it’s your whiny comment here that professes a selfish idea. A marriage between two people who aren’t doing well financially is bound to fail and that’s often why we put it off. But to you, that’s irrelevant because marriage by itself is preferable to one that is actually stable and working. You make no sense and that’s not a realistic view to have.

    Meanwhile, it’s baby boomers (i.e. people of your generation) who are the ones leading in the divorce rate. Thus, anyone in your age bracket should be the last person to whine and moan about declining marriage rates. You’re not exactly helping in that regard either.

  • Dom S

    Then leave, shut the hell up, and leave the rest of us alone.

  • My, my. Imagine finding or accusing someone of lying on this site. Will wonders never cease?

    The U.S. Postal Service reported a $5.6 billion loss in fiscal 2016, despite claiming a controllable income of $610 million, with the net loss increasing by $500 million over the previous fiscal year.

    The agency cited $5.8 billion in congressionally required payments to prefund future retirees’ health care as responsible for the loss, despite stabilizing mail volume and continued growth in its shipping and package business. When removing that cost from the equation, the Postal Service’s profits shrunk in half from the $1.2 billion controllable income it earned in fiscal 2015. The Postal Service has now lost at least $1 billion for 10 consecutive years.

    If my business lost $1 billion for the last 10 years I’d be with Bernie Madoff playing checkers in prison.

  • Somewhere in financial news the facts exist. Unlike political fantasy a balance sheet is a balance sheet.

  • Mr. Z,
    You don’t have the standing to criticize me. People who can’t post without name calling are generally under educated, miserable Liberals without credentials. You appear to be threatened by the notion that Government generally doesn’t work.

    Without the Private Sector there would be no country to govern.

  • Nobody on this site in general cares if the Post Office makes or loses money. You will have to continue this thread with Herm.

  • Digory_Kirke

    I’m pretty conservative, but wow, is this ever a terrible idea. Between that and complaining about how too many tennis players are lesbians, Franklin Graham has been having quite a week.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Exhibits Prime: Slavery and segregation (both of which were legally and culturally supported through most of American history).

    Exhibit A:

    I won’t provide links since that might gum up the post, but I will provide article titles instead:

    “7 Things Donald Trump Gets Absolutely Wrong About Andrew Jackson”

    “There’s a reason why millions of Americans were thrilled with the 2016 announcement that Harriet Tubman would bump Jackson from the front of the $20 bill. An article in Indian Country Today recognized the 250th anniversary of the seventh president’s birth with an article entitled “Indian-Killer Andrew Jackson Deserves Top Spot on List of Worst US Presidents” and recalled that: “In 1830, a year after he became president, Jackson signed a law that he had proposed—the Indian Removal Act—which legalized ethnic cleansing. Within seven years 46,000 indigenous people were removed from their homelands east of the Mississippi. Their removal gave 25 million acres of land ‘to white settlement and to slavery,’ according to PBS. The area was home to the Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Seminole nations. In the Trail of Tears alone, 4,000 Cherokee people died of cold, hunger, and disease on their way to the western lands.”

    (This is the man that both Trump and Steve Bannon admire so much that they put his portrait up in the white house…)

    Exhibit B: Dred Scott v. Sanford

    Exhibit C: Plessy v. Fergusson

    Exhibit D: (You should read this entire article, although I know in advance you won’t.)

    “The Battle for North Carolina”

    “One place that drew Simmons’s particular ire was the port city of Wilmington, then the most populous city in the state and the heart of its Fusion movement. The city was home to the Wilmington Daily Record, one of the few black daily newspapers in the country at the time. In August of 1898, during the statewide fever pitch of racism and a barrage of fear-mongering about black rape and miscegenation, the Daily Record’s editor Alex Manly and his staff published an abrasive column that instead directly blamed white women for initiating sexual contact, saying “women of that race are not any more particular in the matter of clandestine meetings with colored men than are the white men with colored women.”

    Simmons’s Democrats whipped themselves into a frenzy over that editorial, and used Manly and Wilmington in general as a chief example of “Negro domination.” Under the local Democratic leader Colonel Alfred Moore Waddell, white supremacists organized a secret committee dedicated to violent overthrow if Fusion politicians were to win the local government of Wilmington. Even as Simmons’s white-supremacist campaign won commanding victories for the Democrats at almost every level and district, the Fusion ticket pulled through in Wilmington. Waddell and his mob made good on their promise.

    Waddell’s armed faction attacked Wilmington on August 10, initiating a pogrom in which they burned the offices of the Daily Record, killed as many as 30 black people, and put an exclamation mark on the temporary end of racial progressivism in the state. The Cape Fear River was reported to have run red with blood, and the event, known as the Wilmington Insurrection, became the only successful coup d’etat on American soil. Waddell forced the newly-elected local government to resign at gunpoint, and reigned as mayor until 1905.
    Armed rioters in front of the burned-down Daily Record press building in
    Wilmington, North Carolina, on November 26, 1898 (Wikimedia)

    Encouraged by the victories across the state and the complete absence of a federal or state response to the coup in Wilmington, Simmons and his party began the next phase of establishing white supremacy in the state. Their 1900 suffrage amendment to the state constitution established poll taxes, literacy tests, and an informal state of negro disenfranchisement. And in 1901, White delivered his “temporary farewell,” ushering in 70 years of white rule.

    Moving on to something more modern:

    Exhibit E:

    “Cop accused of brutally torturing black suspects costs Chicago $5.5 million”

    “Whenever Chicago Police commander Jon Burge needed a confession, he would walk into the interrogation room and set down a little black box, his alleged victims would later tell prosecutors. The box had two wires and a crank. Burge, they alleged, would attach one wire to the suspect’s handcuffed ankles and the other to his manacled hands. Then, they said, Burge would place a plastic bag over the suspect’s head. Finally, he would crank his little black box and listen to the screams of pain as electricity coursed through the suspect’s body.

    “When he hit me with the voltage, that’s when I started gritting, crying, hollering. … It [felt] like a thousand needles going through my body,” Anthony Holmes told prosecutors during a 2006 investigation into Burge. “And then after that, it just [felt] like, you know—it [felt] like something just burning me from the inside, and, um, I shook, I gritted, I hollered, then I passed out.”

    Holmes, who eventually gave what he says was a false confession and was convicted of murder in 1973, is one of as many as 120 African-American men on Chicago’s South Side who were allegedly tortured by Burge between 1972 and 1991.”

  • IconoclastTwo

    Exhibit F:

    “Racist arrests in Tulia, Texas”

    “n July of 1999, 10% of the African-American population in Tulia, Texas, a small town of 5,000 in the Texas Panhandle, was arrested on drug charges solely on the testimony of a single undercover officer. The arrests of 46 people, 39 of them black, resulted in 38 convictions for various drug charges with sentences of up to 90 years in prison. In early April 2003, a Dallas judge threw out all 38 drug convictions from Tulia because they were based on questionable testimony from a single undercover agent accused of racial prejudice. On June 16, 12 of the defendants remaining in the case (most of the others accepted plea-bargains in order to avoid lengthy prison sentences), were freed after Texas Gov. Perry signed a bill authorizing their release.

    The officer responsible for the racially motivated arrests is Tom Coleman, a Texas cop with a checkered past and a self-declared fondness for racial epithets. At the time, Coleman was working for the Panhandle Regional Narcotics Task Force, one of an estimated 1,000 drug task forces operating across America with very little oversight or accountability. According to Randy Credico of the William Kunstler Fund for Racial Justice, which was instrumental in bringing Tulia to the public’s attention, “The Panhandle task force was the beneficiary of Coleman’s lies. The more busts he made and the more convictions he helped win, the more federal grant money the task force received.”

    Perversely, in this “”bucks-for-busts”” world, Coleman was named Texas’ outstanding narcotics officer in 2000. This is surprising since Coleman kept no written records, not a single photograph was taken, no video was shot, and no one observed his buys. Every ensuing conviction relied only on his word. The Texas judge who freed the defendants in June called Coleman “the most devious, non-responsive law enforcement witness this Court has witnessed in 25 years on the bench in Texas.” According to the Court’s findings, Coleman submitted false reports, misrepresented his investigative work, and misidentified various defendants during his investigation.

    Subsequent to the April ruling, Coleman was indicted on three counts of perjury in an unrelated case. Although he faces up to 10 years in prison, his misdeeds in the Tulia case have yet to be formally recognized. Furthermore, the “”Tulia 12″” have not been completely exonerated. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals must approve the ruling for their convictions, and those of the 26 others ensnared in the bogus drug sting, to be thrown out. The Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles should also do its part by pardoning the defendants or granting clemency or commutation in the cases.”

    Exhibit G:

    “Exclusive: Cop in Fatal Shooting of Ex-Marine Kenneth Chamberlain ID’d, Sued in 2008 Racism Case”

    “In a broadcast exclusive, we reveal the name of the police officer who allegedly killed 68-year-old Kenneth Chamberlain, the retired African-American Marine who was shot dead in his own home in White Plains, New York, in November after he inadvertently triggered his medical alert pendant. Documented in audio recordings, the White Plains police reportedly used a racial slur, burst through Chamberlain’s door, tasered him, then shot him dead. “The last time I actually really saw my father, other than the funeral, was at the hospital, with his eyes wide open, his tongue hanging out his mouth, and two bullet holes in his chest,” said Kenneth Chamberlain Jr. “And I’m staring at my father, wondering, ‘What happened?'”

    The alleged shooter, Officer Anthony Carelli, is due in court later this month in an unrelated 2008 police brutality case. He is accused of being the most brutal of a group of officers who allegedly beat two arrestees of Jordanian descent and called them “rag heads.” We speak to Gus Dimopoulos, attorney for Jerry and Sal Hatter. “We allege that the police officers, while in the custody of the White Plains Police Department back at the station, you know, severely beat Jerry while being restrained by handcuffs. They hit him in the face with a nightstick, they kicked, they punched, they punched him, and then essentially charged him with a crime,” Dimopoulos said.

    Despite repeated requests from Chamberlain’s family for the name of the officer who killed him, White Plains Public Safety Commissioner David Chong only named Carelli as the shooter this morning, after his name appeared in an article written by Democracy Now!’s Juan Gonzalez in the New York Daily News. The White Plains police have refused to say whether Carelli has been disciplined or assigned to desk duty after the fatal shooting of Chamberlain. We get an update on the Chamberlain case from the victim’s son, Kenneth Chamberlain, Jr., and his two attorneys, Mayo Bartlett and Abdulwali Muhammad. We also speak with Gus Dimopoulos, a lawyer for the 2008 victims, Jereis Hatter and Salameh Hatter. [includes rush transcript]”

    Exhibit H:

    “For years, white supremacists in the Dothan, Alabama, police department allegedly planted drugs and guns on black people.

    According to the Henry County Report, Internal Affairs records show that their superiors, several of whom have since been promoted, knew about the practice and helped cover it up. The lieutenant reportedly implicated by the documents is now the chief of the department. The sergeant said to have obstructed the Internal Affairs investigation went on to become sheriff and then director of homeland security for the state, a position he continues to hold today. The district attorney at the time (still in office) sat on exculpatory evidence and proceeded with felony prosecutions against the individuals the officers had framed, Henry County Report writes.”

    Exhibit I

    “Ferguson officials’ racist emails released”

    “The previously undisclosed messages were released along with full copies of emails referenced in a report by the US Department of Justice that led to the dismissal of a series of senior city officials last month.

    One of those emails depicted Barack Obama as a chimpanzee, another doubted his ability as a black man to hold a job for four years, while a third labelled a photograph of a black tribal gathering “Michelle Obama’s high school reunion”.”

    I could continue-but I won’t.

    “Why do you think our borders are flooded with immigrants?”

    Multiple reasons: because some (quite a few of them) do have money and if you’re an immigrant with money and connections “America” has (so far) been better to you since immigrants do at least fit into the narrative (lie, actually) that Americans tell about themselves more than black people do. Because after the US government destroyed their countries yes, there are jobs here.

    “They are coming here in droves hoping for a better life. America has clean water and food, transportation systems and electricity that works, jobs and laws that protect our way of life. If you think America is not fair enough then you have not been to other countries to experience the difference.”

    Everything that your policies support is going to destroy what you claim to value. People aren’t going to come here if their already approved travel privileges can just be yanked away on a whim which is exactly what Trump keeps on trying to ‘accomplish’. They’re going to ask themselves (rightly) why they should put up with this-and so they won’t if they don’t have to. Catering to the superwealthy who have zero accountability whatsoever for their decisions encourages them to dismantle utterly that infrastructure that you want to claim (now) is so important-and this is precisely what Trump has done so far by finding the most incompetent, ideologically driven hacks he can to run cabinet agencies like Perry, DeVos, and Carson-and then on top of that gutting their abilities to act.

    You want a country that is even more paranoid, more cruel, more exclusionary instead.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “People who can’t post without name calling are generally under educated, miserable Liberals without credentials.”

    But you just namecalled right there by using liberal as an insult and calling liberals undereducated and miserable. How do you even claim to know that liberals are miserable?

  • Herm

    Mr. Z, what would you put in its place to provide for the twenty plus million who are insured today only because of the ACA, the AHCA?

    A single payer model is the only world applied health insurance that can and would insure more.

    How would you propose to replace the ACA without the support of the play for profit insurance industry lobbies within the constraints of today’s political climate in the USA. Consider that the GOP was meeting during President Obama’s first inauguration choosing to unite in total obstructionism, with the goal to make him a one term president. Consider how many presidents tried spending their political capital with some moderate support from the opposing party only to fail. Consider that there was a plea on the table from the President, for all eight years, that the opposing party offer improvements and the only answer was repeal “Obamacare” with no replacement any better than the AHCA.

    You are offering even less by only criticizing the only national healthcare the USA has ever seen without offering how to fix it or even, what to replace it with that will pass congress.

    The numbers show, the participants tell, that the ACA has saved more lives, and is saving more lives today, than the pure profit motive capitalist health insurance system that preceded it within the USA.

    Obamacare is failing but has not failed, yet. The social security system and the medicare system in the USA would absolutely have failed if bi-partisan support hadn’t fixed both following their first applied efforts.

    If the AHCA replaces the ACA then Obamacare most certainly failed for twenty million will no longer be insured and pre-existing conditions will be subject to each and every state’s discretion. Perhaps, all that will be left is that the kids can still remain on their parent’s plan until finishing college.

    You are preaching to the choir if you think I am happy with any form of education and/or healthcare being administrated subject to a profit motive that is not solely for the profit of the entire nation and every citizen. But then I’m already being demeaned as a socialist, liberal leftist who won’t support any form of trickle down politics.

    How do we fix healthcare when Tea Partians and Trumpians rule the Grand Old Party by an Electoral College majority supported mostly by working and/or out of work class interests and motives?

    The ACA profited more USA citizens’ health and longevity of life than anything prior and anything yet offered to replace it.

  • Realist1234

    I disagree with Franklin’s view, however-

    ‘It’s one thing to promote one’s version of sexual morality or marriage in a context of free speech, the competition of ideas, persuasion, etc., but it’s entirely another to make one’s views into law and force that on other people. While there are many reasons this is morally wrong, the biggest reason is the fact that all laws are enforced by violence or the threat of violence. This means that when one legislates their own religious views into law, they are violently forcing their views upon others– and nothing about that is good, right, moral, or Christian.’

    – atheists, liberals etc make their views into law all the time and are forced on other people. Gay ‘marriage’ has been made legal in GB, abortion on demand for ‘social’ reasons etc. Christians in public office, both in the UK and US, have been threatened with job loss or even jail if they refused to uphold liberal laws. So enforcement of certain ideologies can have bad results for believers.

    – you’re again misusing the term ‘violence’ . A fine is not violence. Few people would view it as such. One could legitimately say that abortion on demand is ‘violence’, yet ironically you’ve never spoken against it. But God-forbid if someone is fined! Lets not use inappropriate terms to bolster the argument.

    ‘And supporting the enshrinement of your personal values into law so that you can violently force others to live by them,’

    – that is precisely what is happening to Christians who dare voice their views publicly. And ‘personal values’ applies both to liberal and conservative – endorsing gay marriage is very much a personal value. You only ever seem to apply your logic to conservative Christians.

  • This reply first of the three posts: from personal knowledge and association; from comments of other conservatives.

  • Realist1234

    Believe me the NHS in the UK does not work perfectly. The principle is a good thing, but the implementation can be a mess. A significant number of people go privately due to long waiting lists. Still, better than the US system. Personally I think we should move more towards a Scandinavian model, where we pay higher taxes but then get what we pay for. Its a shame governments shy away from that due to political reasons.

  • First, why do you want scriptures from a “literally insane” person?
    Second, You do not believe in the bible so you do not need scriptures.
    Third, Liberalism is Dead for now – just the stark reality of defeat is left.

  • Herm

    You have none, enough said. Enough of your bombastic platitudes. You have no truth to share. Bye

  • Exhibit A-D are true but ancient.
    Dred Scott decision was in 1857.

    If you are saying that America has not moved past that point I cannot agree. When I grew up in Pittsburgh as a child I did not then nor now think that race relations were mired in the past. Our neighborhood was definitely a mixed race neighborhood but the kids I hung with were more interested in typical childhood stuff not politics and certainly not the history of slavery. Most of the world participated in slavery. Our country stopped slavery with a civil war where many people were killed to stop it.

    Chicago is kind of a flash point for normal America to wonder what the hell is going on there? If the City nor the State cannot stop the drug-gang violence it is time for the Military to end it. Who in their right mind thinks this needless slaughter should continue on the basis of race relations?

  • Erp

    Hmm you seem to have some facts wrong. Parish registration of marriages and church weddings in England only became mandatory (except for Jews and Quakers) in the mid-1700s when the official religion was Anglican and the parishes were Anglican (and the wedding had to be Anglican). State registration in England/Wales only came in in the 1830s (along with permission to have non-Anglican legal weddings). Current English law is that you cannot have any marriage rite you want (the Humanist Society is currently fighting to be allowed to have official weddings). Note that marriage by banns in the Church of England is still permitted in England. In contrast in Scotland up until the mid-1800s you were married if a couple eligible to marry (i.e., neither was already married) declared in public they were married (it was a plot point in some Victorian novels of couples unintentionally getting married in Scotland by, for instance, signing into a hotel as Mr. & Mrs.).

  • IconoclastTwo

    How is gay marriage in any way threatening to you beyond the idea (which I don’t accept) that its existence itself is a threat? It didn’t magically make hetero marriage illegal or anything similar to that.

  • IconoclastTwo

    So in other words largely anecdotal and whatever you wanted to hear anyways. I’m sure that you’d be willing to change your mind about liberals too, right….

  • Personal friends who are Liberals are not anecdotal evidence; they are real life examples of this pitiful philosophy; and I know many of them.

  • IconoclastTwo

    You’re friends with them but you think their philosophy is pitiful. I think that these kinds of statements say far more about the kind of person you are in the worst possible way than it does about them or their philosophy.

  • Sorry but what is your point with the modern exhibits? Is it that America is a racist country? I don’t believe that for a moment. I believe that your exhibits are factual but not such a dire conclusion.

    If you don’t like what Trump is doing so far just wait. He will carry out all his campaign promises; which is what we expect him to do.

  • I have many friends. I don’t tell them what to think or believe – that is what Liberals do. Why judge me because I cannot abide Liberal philosophy. This is America and part of what I love about it is our freedom to express our thoughts and ideas. Liberals are now trying to suppress thoughts and ideas at our Universities! That is another pitiful example of the philosophy I find satanic.

  • Just as a note, many authoritarians don’t actually experience cognitive dissonance — their minds are so compartmentalized that two conflicting ideas never bump into each other, even when invoked in rapid succession.

    That’s how you can, for example, get a Real True Patriot to declare that they are proud to live in a country that defends freedom of speech, and then turn around and yell at you for criticizing it.

  • IconoclastTwo

    ” Why judge me because I cannot abide Liberal philosophy.”

    Because you want poor people to die in order to prove a point.

    “That is another pitiful example of the philosophy I find satanic.”

    So let me get this straight: you think that liberal philosophy is satanic and therefore that liberals are in some way connected with satan-but you still think that you’re friends with them? Maybe it’s just me, but friendship means something a lot deeper than this.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Sorry but what is your point with the modern exhibits? Is it that America is a racist country?”

    Yes-and by definition racism is unfair.

    “I don’t believe that for a moment. I believe that your exhibits are factual but not such a dire conclusion.”

    I’m sure you don’t believe that. You seem to be a generally oblivious person in general to anything and anyone who doesn’t already agree with you.

    Oh, and before you even try and say “that’s just me” I’d call this a generalized social phenomenon.

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/06/27/2-views-of-race-relations/

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Exhibit A-D are true but ancient.
    Dred Scott decision was in 1857.”

    Bull.

    It’s not ancient and its totally relevant when everything I pointed out was part of and established/continued a pattern of racist inequality and oppression that continues to this day in the country.

    As just one example the Keystone XL pipeline (where native protesters were attacked violently on multiple occasions) was rerouted to potentially pollute the water supply of tribal lands-because a nearby, overwhelmingly white city objected to its route. You’re still expropriators.

    Similarly, even though this is symbolic it very much so matters, how much of the confederacy, even though they were blatantly supportive of slavery and the Klan is or was historically ‘honored’ in the South? That’s only beginning to change now-and even then with resistance.

    I also love how christians like you like to talk about jesus as the universal moral exemplar two thousand years ago who’s relevant to everyone everywhere (whether the rest of the world wants to hear from you or not and increasingly: we don’t) but when it comes to the suffering of black or native people IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY IN RECENT HISTORY it might just as well be taking place in Galaxy Andromeda.

    If people like you hadn’t already dug a bottomless pit for my opinion of your religion: this alone certainly would have done it.

  • Realist1234

    I was thinking of those who worked as registrars etc before gay marriage was legally recognised by the state. Or cake bakers who refused to endorse certain messages on their cakes and were forced through the courts because of it, even though discrimination against the person had not occurred. Or the magistrate in England who was struck off because he dared to say he believed it was better for an adopted child to be raised by a mother and father.

    I think Ben would agree, given his definition of violence, that being threatened with or actually losing your job, with the subsequent financial hardship, because you dont agree with gay marriage is an act of violence on the part of the state.

  • Herm

    You are consumed with what you see wrong without any solution beyond, “ask the reps from those districts“.

    The real Tea Party was in reprisal due to taxation without representation … so we have a constitutional democracy that all adult citizen’s are responsible to individually and collectively. If you want change to what you see is best for those represented you must be able to educate their representative’s constituents to tell their representative what to do. When a congressman requires ever increasing really big bucks, non-stop add campaigns and support of their party before they are voted on by their constituents every two years they must look to their only source for sufficient funds, and those are the wealthy lobbies with the wiles necessary to sway sufficient constituent votes to begin the same, but more expensive, for the next two years. I agree that it’s time for a revolution justified by the first paragraph of the USA’s Declaration of Independence. Right now the oligarchy is represented first because they can afford the propaganda necessary to achieve the votes. The major players in the oligarchy are the Koch brothers, the NRA, the pharmaceuticals, the investment broker industry and then the healthcare industry. The fragmenting fundamentalists of any self indulgent ignorant ilk are easily played by the representatives of the oligarchy to the detriment of the democracy. You want to solve this problem you’re going to have to incite with something resembling a party due to healthcare without representation. Do it and I’ll be right there throwing the premiums over the side of:

    Unitedhealth Group
    Kaiser Foundation Group
    Wellpoint Inc. Group
    Aetna Group
    Humana Group
    Hcsc Group
    Cigna Health Group
    Highmark Group.

  • Herm

    Reread my reply that got shipped before intended. After you do I would like to know what you propose beyond, “ask the reps from those districts“.

    I am not playing devil’s advocate, at all in this case, I want a plan not a gripe.

  • Herm

    Did you just threaten me with, “you keep talking as you are and I’m not going to talk back”? Wow, all you had to do was simply not talk back.

    Without any bud of a solution offered I really am not hearing anything I didn’t know already. The fact is I feel as impotent as you seem.

    As a disciple of Christ I always have the fall back of this isn’t where my treasures are stored anyway. As an empathetic elder child of Man I would much rather influence through my carnal life toward improving the present plight of my mankind toward life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all before I die.

  • Liberal thought and ideas are totally misguided. They have taken our country far down the wrong road. Fortunately our President will get us back on track despite the interference.

  • Another hallmark of a Liberal: always be the victim of something. It is much easier to play the victim and call our great country names than to work on the problems.

  • It is hard for me to relate to your mindset. If you feel oppressed in this country then you do.

    I don’t preach Jesus on this site. I simply correct the record when I see statements that I feel are wrong.

  • IconoclastTwo

    It’s impossible to fix a problem until you admit that you have one.

  • Ron McPherson

    I get what you’re saying but doesn’t it come down to the issues of discrimination? In other words, I’m in the business of selling wedding cakes. So I sell to anyone who wants one without regard to creed, color, religion, social status, religion or nationality. It’s just basic civil rights. I could claim my religious beliefs as justification to not serve black folks at a lunch counter, but thank God there are laws against that. And I don’t get off the hook merely because the deli down the street serves a black person. Because what if one day they decide it’s against their religion too. And so it goes. My thing is this: if my beliefs might cause me to discriminate against others made in the image of God, then the best thing for me to do is not open up a business set up to make a profit off the citizenry.

  • Herm

    Of course many on the right have heaped a tremendous amount of abuse on Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton in recent years. Even though they stand for things that are truly appalling, does that justify the horrible mistreatment that they have received?

    At least we know where you stand. I guess I do find President Trump’s instilling fear of innocent others with lies and misrepresentations truly appalling so now you know where I stand.

    The “American Dream” would work to the desired end of the framers if each difference had empathy, compassion and forgiveness for one another in the example set by those who established ALL men (and now by the bill of rights amended to include all women) are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Even brown, black and Muslim men and women were included in our declaration of independence.

    It used to be that all parties understood that concept enough to find conservative and liberal compromise while still respecting their political adversary.

    I think you are young and fundamentally misled by teachers other than the Spirit of truth. You are still loved adversarial or not. Michael Snyder didn’t do much to bridge the gap with the beginning of:

    There are a lot of Democrats that deeply hate Donald Trump with everything that they have inside of them, even though they might not be able to clearly explain to anyone exactly why they hate him so much.

    followed by what I quoted at the beginning.

    I, and many here, can clearly explain why we fear the destructive abuse of power being exercised by our present President that isolates and destroys so many worldwide in a manner not representative of the majority of the USA.

  • Realist1234

    Regarding the cake issue, you misunderstand what happened. Btw Im thinking of the one that occurred in Northern Ireland. The business did not refuse the cake order because of who ordered it – they had served that individual before a number of times. It was down to the message on the cake ‘Support Gay Marriage’ which they decided they could not in all conscience make. If the customer had been straight and ordered the same cake, they would have refused them too. Indeed the fact that they had served him before proves that they did not discriminate against him because of the possibility he was gay (they may have guessed he was but they had no way of knowing for sure – he was just another customer). So no discrimination against the person because of their sexuality. Its a shame the courts through which this business was dragged did not see the difference. Though I understand they are appealing against the court ruling. Hopefully common sense and a proper understanding of the law will prevail, particularly as gay marriage is not legally recognised in NI.

    I fully agree with you that businesses should not discriminate against people because of their sexuality, race, creed etc. But equally, individuals cannot expect a business to do anything they like for them. One has to be reasonable.

  • Ron McPherson

    Ah ok. Thanks for clarification

  • Ulf Turkewitsch

    It is completely wrong to take Jesus’ gospel of love and freedom for individuals and turn it into one of world domination. This was attempted by the Roman Catholic Church. We know how well that turned out. Franklin Graham and other church leaders have fallen for the erroneous “kingdom theology” Jesus said that his kingdom was and is not of this earth. We cannot turn a nation into a godly one by force. Stick to the pure gospel Graham. Leave politics to the politicians.

  • In a further reply to Dred Scott and the 15th Amendment, I would say slavery did have far reaching consequences. I do not understand your point that slavery reaches into 2017. Discrimination is alive and well but it applies to many diverse groups today:

    Christians
    Muslims
    Women
    LGTBQ
    Unborn Children
    Illegal Immigrants
    Minorities
    Indians
    Etc.

    What suffering of black people are you referring to? I see the suffering of black people in Chicago. It is disgraceful. Chicago is not in the South. Why can’t the drug gang slaughter of innocent women and children be stopped? If you have an answer to that I would like to hear it.

    Dred Scott Decision summary: Dred Scott was a slave who sought his freedom through the American legal system. The 1857 decision by the United States Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case denied his plea, determining that no Negro, the term then used to describe anyone with African blood, was or could ever be a citizen.

    After the U.S. Civil War (1861-65), the 15th Amendment, ratified in 1870, prohibited states from denying a male citizen the right to vote based on “race, color or previous condition of servitude.” Nevertheless, in the ensuing decades, various discriminatory practices were used to prevent African Americans, particularly those in the South, from exercising their right to vote.

  • Herm
  • And your point is? Or do you expect me to read that article and determine what your point is? I already know your opinion on most religious and political matters. The ACA was passed specifically to give Healthcare to people who could not afford it; unfortunately for the democrats the rest of the ACA did not work as planned and now has to be replaced.

  • Herm

    Bob Shiloh kaydenpat • 3 days ago
    I lived in Canada also. The system is very expensive and not as good.

  • Exhibit D: (You should read this entire article, although I know in advance you won’t.)

    “The Battle for North Carolina”

    The article is a good history lesson of the how the two political parties jockey for control of voters.

    If it were true that one party (the Democrats) was better suited for Black needs than the other (the Republicans) then I would understand your concern that I read the article. But it is not true. The Democrat Party has simply been replaced by a party interested in self-perpetuation not individual quality of life. I would argue that after any election campaign the Democrat promises are forgotten until the next election.

    If you can show me how any Black person is better off under Democrat control in the last several Presidential elections I am willing and interested to hear about it. But they are not.

    I would point to the election of President Obama. What specific improvement in the lives of Black people has resulted from his election? I can name all the negatives but cannot think of any positives.

  • Matthew

    Germany is pretty cool … just sayin´ …

  • Elca

    Anything ” Forced ” is not of God. We were created with a free will to chose. Forced marriages aren’t in line with God’s design and purpose.
    However, I think the churches have FAILED in promoting traditional marriage and Family. It has bend over backwards to become cultural conformist.
    It has FAILED to speak to women, to be ” Submissive and good keepers” at home and for the home. Yet the Bible speaks to her in these ways.
    It seems to be a Crime to speak what thus said God, to His daughter.
    Most will be offended and will leave the Church that preaches such message.
    So, many acquiesce to a cultural message of equality, to please and appease the women, because most have money in their bags and most Pastors need what is in her bag– Money.
    In the process, the home is left desolate, the family is dysfunctional, the babies are indoctrinated into gender neutrality and gender confusion, because most babies are in the daycare industry, and she is not happy.
    That’s the irony, we try to please her, and yet she is not happy, even after reaching the pinnacle of society’s and corporate positions , still she is NOT happy.
    Why???

  • otrotierra

    I’ll stick with what Jesus had to say.

  • gimpi1

    Actually, you and Blueboyo are both right. H’e talking about the middle ages, and the schism in the Roman Catholic Church during the 1500’s that led to the development of the Anglican church. Since that time, the merger of the British government and Anglican church has waxed and waned. He’s describing one time, you another.

    right, today, the English government isn’t recognizing weddings done by the Humanist Society, however, anyone can have a completely civil ceremony, not involving the Anglican or any other church and be legally married.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “The article is a good history lesson of the how the two political parties jockey for control of voters.”

    No, it isn’t and this isn’t about your partisan Republican bullshit. It’s one example about how “America” was shaped politically by violence against black people precisely in order to prevent the kind of politics that would otherwise develop in favor of equality.

    “If it were true that one party (the Democrats) was better suited for Black needs than the other (the Republicans) then I would understand your concern that I read the article. But it is not true. The Democrat Party has simply been replaced by a party interested in self-perpetuation not individual quality of life. I would argue that after any election campaign the Democrat promises are forgotten until the next election.”

    I think you’re both awful. That, in a sense, is the point, though-namely that what’s awful and bigoted and vicious about “America” is a constant far more than its episodic.

  • gimpi1

    Seriously? You’re saying that an attempt to expand health insurance is the same thing as denying health care to people’s kids because you don’t approve of their parents? OK, well, I can go home now, I’ve seen everything…

  • IconoclastTwo

    “In a further reply to Dred Scott and the 15th Amendment, I would say slavery did have far reaching consequences. I do not understand your point that slavery reaches into 2017.”

    Because wealth accumulation (especially in a society that’s as money driven as this country) is cumulative and what this country has done, at more or less every turn, is systematically exclude black people both through oppression and through selective application of validity of law, from all of this.

    When you also have a significant portion of the country that still thinks that the confederacy was great then yes, I’d say that slavery still had an effect-namely that a lot of christians are totally incapable of regarding black people (even though they’re also overwhelmingly christian, as much as you don’t deserve it) as human in any substantive way.

    “Discrimination is alive and well but it applies to many diverse groups today:

    Christians
    Muslims
    Women
    LGTBQ
    Unborn Children
    Illegal Immigrants
    Minorities
    Indians
    Etc.”

    And you said that you didn’t preach Jesus (or at least your Jesus was a Republican version of him) :)

    Christians and fetuses are not discriminated against groups.

    “What suffering of black people are you referring to?”

    Did you even bother reading anything I said or did you just breeze through it to get back to a standard Republican talking point?

    “After the U.S. Civil War (1861-65), the 15th Amendment, ratified in 1870, prohibited states from denying a male citizen the right to vote based on “race, color or previous condition of servitude.” Nevertheless, in the ensuing decades, various discriminatory practices were used to prevent African Americans, particularly those in the South, from exercising their right to vote.”

    The United States still uses a lot of those practices because the constitution was never fundamentally changed or modernized in order to get rid of them permanently (which by the way is absolutely what I advocate, before your next whine becomes how I have no solutions).

  • IconoclastTwo

    Oh but wait it gets worse….scroll down.

  • I do not share your negative views of America and I especially do not share your views of race relations in America. My Republican position is that the Democrat Party has utterly failed to advance the interests of the Black people in this country. While I was led to believe that the Democrats were the party of minorities these last 10 years have shown me nothing could be further from the truth.

  • How did you come to that conclusion? The ACA was a rather blatant attempt to expand healthcare coverage for people who could not obtain coverage any other way – but it failed because it was not well thought out from the beginning.

  • gimpi1

    **scrolls down** Oh. my. word… OK, I need the brain-bleach now. The things you can’t un-see…

    Brain bleach. Perhaps in the form of a nice Armagnac or Glenfiddich…

  • IconoclastTwo

    Yes, I know you don’t. That’s part of your entire problem. You’re too concerned with preaching at victims while doing nothing for them and fetishizing fetuses to help anyone else. You’re a testament (pun fully intended) as to why I utterly and irrevocably loathe your brand of christianity.

    Edited to add: you’re functionally incapable of empathy, refuse to listen to any facts that in any way challenge your preconceptions, and the most honest statement about christianity is that your views are at least disputed/not in universal agreement-but more than anything else it seems like your real god is the republican party because anything that they say, no matter how harmful or vicious to other people, you’ll sign on for. In fact, you’ll see it as a plus because you see any failing in life as a function of personal failure and not anything systemic, much less anything that you think that people can or should do anything to address.

    There is absolutely nothing worth admiring or respecting with regards to you or your views.

  • IconoclastTwo

    That sounds both expensive but a really good idea (except it’s too early for me and I have rules against drinking early in the day). You’re probably in a different timezone anyways.

  • I am not your problem. You are your problem. This discussion about your views of race relations is entirely one sided and typical of Liberals: be a victim; blame others; rail against the system. Might make you feel good but does nothing else.

    The only new thing I learned from you is that you loathe other Christians. This is a view worthy of an Islamic terrorist. Are you Muslim?

  • IconoclastTwo

    People who think like you are _practically everybody’s_ problem. I also love how my hating you and people who think you like implies that I’m a Muslim-because of course nobody else could dislike you for any other reasons, right?

    “This discussion about your views of race relations is entirely one sided and typical of Liberals: be a victim; blame others; rail against the system.”

    Because segregationists, bigots, and people who own others and made billions off of it have a “side” worth respecting, right? “Free the slaveowners” is the rallying cry of christians who think like you.

  • IconoclastTwo

    Additionally, if you’re such a fan of personal responsibility as a concept then do you think that the higher-ups in the Bush administration that have so far evaded serious consequences should be charged with war crimes for torture, initiating a war of aggression based upon false premises, et cetera, and put on trial for it?

  • No I do not. But my personal favorites for indictment and trial are:

    Susan Rice for Benghazi and Unmasking Americans
    Hillary Clinton for signing the Russian Uranium Deal

  • IconoclastTwo

    Why not?

  • I don’t know what women you are talking about. I have many friends who are in good marriages where both parents work and yet have happy, healthy children. It all depends on the parents.

  • Elca

    Good for them, I too have friends where both parents work and it is a struggle for the mother to have to joggle work and picking the babies and he has a demanding job, some of them manage to live normal lives, others are very unhappy and bitter.
    And yet I know of other mothers who made the decision to be at home with their babies, who sacrifice certain material gains, but are happy with little.
    But , ones personal experience isn’t the issue…what does the Bible say and require of us especially of mothers and women is most important IMO.

  • Elca

    Which is?

  • otrotierra

    Beginning with what Jesus actually said and did will be a good start. See: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

  • jwalters38

    Women to be “submissive?” So it’s OK for a man to dominate over a woman? I don’t think that’s what the bible meant at all.

  • PedasiPaul

    Does anyone defend Rev. Graham?

  • otrotierra

    Comment sections at Patheos, RedLetterChristians, and numerous other blogs are filled with countless attempts to defend Franklin Graham’s deceptive, fear-mongering gospel.

  • Daniel Fisher

    “It’s one thing to promote one’s version of sexual morality or marriage in a context of free speech, the competition of ideas, persuasion, etc., but it’s entirely another to make one’s views into law and force that on other people.”

    It is refreshing to see someone from a more liberal or progressive persuasion argue so well that the government ought not be forcing recognition of gay marriage on people that don’t share that view.

    Hopefully this will be of encouragement to those various bakers, photographers, florists, musicians, and the like who have seen certain views of marriage made into law and forced on them.

  • Daniel Fisher

    It seems rather disingenuous to describe this as “forced marriage.” One can discuss and critique the policies, but can I plead for straightforward honesty in the process? As I read Benjamin’s description, no one is being “forced” to be married. The policy calls for various punishments and disincentives to fornication, and one can debate the various merits or problems…. but to call this “forced marriages” is a bit much.

  • D.M.S.

    Whatever your great pagan ‘poop ‘ says to you catholic cultist you will bow down and kiss his ring.
    But you’re not supposed to believe the word(s) of Christ Jesus in scripture.
    You Catholic cultist make want to vomit.
    It took God/Jesus a little over a thousand years to finally get someone to start teaching the world the true word(s) of Christ Jesus thru Martin Luther.
    I have wondered a few times how many others did God/Jesus send to the RCC to try and correct their teaching of the gospel and the RCC had them killed.
    So they wouldn’t have to give up there true and only god called
    M-O-N-E-Y.
    And it’s still the RCC’s god today.

  • D.M.S.

    I do believe all of the word(s) of Christ Jesus in scripture and those that He taught and inspired to write our scripture. Those are also His word(s).
    I know enough about the catholic faith that I want nothing to do with it.
    When I first became a Christian. I thought that we were all brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
    Your catholic brothers and sisters made sure that Protestants were scum to them. I was in shock.
    But now I know that there are a few catholics that truly are Christians, but not very many of them, maybe .0001% .
    May the good Lord bless you as well, take care.

  • D.M.S.

    Your cult worships Mary as much as her Savior Christ Jesus.
    And that’s blasphemy.
    Oh btw, I doubt that .01% of the entire world is actually true Christians.
    I hope our Lord blesses you.

  • D.M.S.

    What about the
    ‘ Feast of the Assumption ‘
    The Assumption of the blessed Virgin Mary celebrated every August 15th of each year.

  • Daniel, that is a straw man arguement, and you know it. No one is forcing Gays to marry, so the analogy falls flat. Nor is anyone saying Gays must marry or face fines. What you are promoting is a dystopian state, as is his Holiness, Frankie Graham.

  • It’s hard to defend the indefensible, but people still try.

  • Elca, I rebuke thee for speaking to men in such an unseemly manner. Get thee hence back to the kitchen where thou belongest. Suffer not a woman to teachest, it is most unwomanlike!

  • Elca

    hmm…does it matter that Elca is a man?

  • A thousand pardons. I knowest now thy reason for subjugation of thy woman. For the woman was taken from the man and was first deceived. She shall serve you and bearest a quiverfull of children from thy seed.

  • All kidding aside. Modern society and the need for a two income family, puts strains on women that were not there a hundred years ago. I do not disparage women who are stay at home moms. It is a tough enough job on it’s own. As for submission (headship was all the rage in the 80’s), I think “mutual submission” is what is usually taught in non-Southern Baptist evangelical churches. It actually works quite well as I can attest to. I also would commend stay at home dads, when the circumstances merit it. I have been there myself when going through school and the wife worked to bring home the bacon. As for your comment about gender confusion linked to the daycare industry…meh!

    I tend to think of Paul’s instructions for wives and husbands to reflect what a “good” marriage looked like in the first century, and probably a millinia afterwards. For it’s time, these instructions elevated a wife to a “cherished” state, to be loved as Christ loved the church. However, submission and headship “worked” within the context of a non egalitarian society and requires a new paradigm today, recognizing a woman’s equal worth and her gifting by the Holy Spirit. The main problem with headship and submission is that it has been grossly abused by Christian men throughout history.

    Every marriage is different. One size doesn’t necessarily fit all. There needs to be a certain amount of compromise and give and take. I tend to be the “spiritual leader” in our home. Not because I am following some command to be the “priest” of my household, but simply because I am a voracious reader of all things theological and my wife is not. I am not more “spiritual” than her, she loves the Lord dearly and has a good sense of God’s direction in our lives. But our marriage works wonderfully well, even though I don’t claim “headship.” By the way, she’s evangelical, I am not, but Jesus is the glue that makes us stick.

  • Elca

    Thou art mad…Nowhere in my comments do I advocate the ” subjugation of women”. That’s a warped view of God’s Words.

  • Elca

    “All kidding aside.” No kidding…like I said thou art mad…
    ” Modern society…” You are proving my point. God’s Word transcends Societies and cultural changes. The Word of God is unchanging. Yes, our Society changes and have been accepting SSM, Gays and Lesbians and Gender Confusion as normal. But God’s word stands as a perpetual condemnation against all that contradiction.
    You are making a typical argument, by acquiescing to a changing culture and it’s ideologies but the Word of God Changes NOT.
    “… the need for a two income family…” That need is a choice one makes. It’s a terrible argument you are making. At the heart of that choice, is the pull of Materialism vs Self-discipline to make a sacrifice for the good of the Baby. Many people ( especially mothers) are fooling themselves thinking that giving designer clothing to their children is what they need. When it is the nurturing Love of time, correction, and care that is needed most. And that does not require money. This 2 family income mantra is the indoctrination and engineering of the ” Rockerfellow ” plan to get women to demand more so the wealthy class benefits more.
    ” puts strains on women that were not there a hundred years ago…” An Unnecessary strain and stress as she tries to get it ALL.
    There was a study done in 2009 where women have reached the top of the corporate ladder but her happiness is trending downwards. The more she gets, the less happy she is. The reason, happiness is NOT found in material and external things. Happiness is found when one’s life is in sync with God. Psalm 128 says ” Happy you will be…”
    “, I think “mutual submission” is what is usually taught in non-Southern Baptist evangelical churches. “ I don’t care what they teach, I do care what the Bible teaches. Mutual Submission does not nullify the specific instruction for a Wife to Submit to her OWN husband IN EVERYTHING.
    Look, this new Paradigm isn’t Biblical. We were given the charge to maintain the Apostles doctrine and creed.
    So do you have a problem with SSM? That too requires a new paradigm to accept as normal.

    Let me end by quoting the Apostle Jude.“…but earnestly contend for the Faith that was ONCE given to the Saints”. There is NO room for a New Paradigm especially when it conflicts and contradicts the Faith ONCE given for all times.
    Your views aren’t rooted in Scripture but in a changing culture. You, like most, are Cultural Conformist and Social Activists. Not Christians looking to properly exegete the Word of God.

  • “You are making a typical argument, by acquiescing to a changing culture and it’s ideologies but the Word of God Changes NOT.”

    So you believe women should not be allowed to speak in church and not allowed to teach a class with men present? (1 Cor 14:34; 1 Tim 2:12)

    So you believe a woman’s head should be covered when prophesying or praying? (Odd, I thought women couldn’t speak in church?) (1 Cor 11:4-13)

    So you believe it is disgraceful for a woman’s hair to be cut, but her glory is long hair? (1 Cor 11:6, 15)

    So you believe a woman should not braid her hair or wear jewelry? (1 Tim 2:9)

    Since the “Word of God Changes NOT,” if you cannot accept all of these statements then you are “acquiescing to a changing culture.”

    On the other hand, the Bible went through a 100 year period of “refinement,” where texts were changed, added to and authors wrote in the name Paul. 1 Timothy was most certainly NOT written by Paul, and reflects a later period of time when church structure was becoming more codified and patriarchal. Due to grammar and stylistic differences, most critical scholarship finds 2 Timothy to be the only pastoral epistle to possibly be genuinely Pauline.

    Likewise, the conflict between 1 Cor 14 and 1 Cor 11, women silent, women prophesying, reflects a later interpolation, not Pauline, silencing women in church.

    Egalitarians see the creedal statement, there is neither male nor female, as already authentic to the early church at the time Paul converted. This coincides with the 1st century church’s appointment of women deacons and at least one example of a female “apostle.” That women were heavily involved in preaching, teaching and support of the church is apparent from scripture. What is also apparent is that by the 2nd century this changed to reflect a patriarchal society.

    “That need is a choice one makes. It’s a terrible argument you are making.”

    I am sorry, but I just don’t see how you get to decide what financial choices other couples have to make. Nor do I see how you can possibly know what financial burdens other families you don’t know have to shoulder. I think its best we allow others to live their own lives, don’t you?

    “The more she gets, the less happy she is.”

    Reductionist. Has it ever occurred to you WHY women are less satisfied than they were 50 years ago? Multitasking. Women are forced to juggle many more things than men are willing to do. Men do one thing. They work. Women do laundry, cook, raise children, do the bills, go to parent teacher meetings, wait on their husbands…and hold down a job. Some even fit an education into the mix. Men are simply not willing to do their fair share. Women are twice as likely as men to say raising a family makes it harder for them to advance their careers. (1)

    I observed a typical example of the male unrealistic expectancy of women many years ago at a friend’s house. The wife was seated, nursing their newborn. The husband asked her to go get him a beer from the fridge. She did, while still nursing. Headship at its finest.

    My wife and I have an egalitarian marriage. I grocery shop and cook dinners. She shops for sundries and does some housework as well as manages our bills. We share tasks. We both work full time. We are happy and completely fulfilled.

    1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-theory/wp/2016/02/05/anne-marie-slaughter-for-women-happiness-isnt-the-issue-equality-is/?utm_term=.e8e7d38a9771

  • Daniel Fisher

    Sir, please check the logic – I am making no analogy whatsoever. I am simply taking Mr. Corey’s words objecting to “making one’s views [about sexual morality or marriage] into law and forcing that on other people” at face value, and point out that his sentiments apply to other scenarios than the one he specifically addressed. Plenty of Christian business owners have had other people’s views of sexual morality or marriage forced onto them through legal or judicial processes. And I think Mr. Corey’s warning against such actions should equally apply to them.

    And what I am promoting is what I think a reasonable freedom – freedom for the Jewish florist not to be forced to make arrangements to decorate the stage of a NeoNazi rally, for a Black Lives Matter florist not to be forced to make T-shirts saying Michael Brown was guilty, A Muslim photographer not to be forced to be present and take pictures of a Franklin Graham rally, or in this case, a Christian musician to be forced to play her instrument at either a Muslim ceremony, a Black Lives Matter protest, a white supremacist rally, or a gay wedding ceremony. Is that too much to ask?

    If so, could you outline to me specifically in what way this freedom would lead to such a dystopian state? I would think the alternative would be more likely of doing so.

  • Daniel, I am finding it harder and harder to tell the difference between a fundamentalist and a libertarian. You are not promoting an egalitarian society where everyone is treated equal, but a society where everyone has an equal opportunity to discriminate and the government cannot tell you who you can or cannot discriminate against…libertarian.

    As a follower of Christ I do not have the luxury of deciding who my neighbor is. I cannot decide Muslims, Jews, Blacks, feminists, Neo Nazis or Gays are not my neighbor. Hanging a sign that says “your kind not served here” has been done before as you may recall, and by Christians no less. No, you have aptly described the opposite of a dystopian state…you have described anarchy.

    Remember it was the hated Samaritan and not the religious fundamentalist …I mean Pharisee, that was the true neighbor.

  • Elca, I think you must have deleted your latest post to me as it shows in my mail but not here. In it you claim I have a warped view of scripture and do not know what good interpretation is. Let me take a minute to explain what the conservative view of scripture is. It is docetic. If you recall, the heresy of docetism was the gnostic belief that Christ only APPEARED human, that his full divinity precluded an actual human body. This is the basic underlying hermeneutic that has plagued fundamentalism from Hodge and Warfield to Grudem today. The Bible was written by humans, but was entirely God’s exact words. Instead of acknowledging the very real facts that the Bible reflects a long process of revisionism, and shows dubious authorship at times, fundamentalists view the Bible as though it suddenly appeared in the form we see today (66 books if you’re Protestant). Or they claim that the entire process of canonization was inspired by the Holy Spirit as to be without error.

    That being the case, any questioning of authorship, late dates or revisions are dismissed as they do not fit the docetic nature they have ascribed to scripture. It also, unfortunately, precludes any understanding of scripture being culturally bound, that is, a product of the culture the writers lived in. Because scripture is docetic, it doesn’t matter what culture was like for the authors. All that matters is that God said it, I believe it!

    “You are choosing to believe a social construct that sees God conforming to a changing culture and times. That “paradigm “is antithetical to the nature and Word of God.”

    You realize there is very little difference between the Biblical “social construct” and all other eastern cultures at that time? You are simply believing in a social construct that was en vogue at that time. Men were in charge whether they were Jew, Christian or Roman. Women had less rights, didn’t own property and were on a lower tier in the household codes of the day, just above children and slaves. The patriarchal society of the Jews reflected this middle eastern culture, Paul reflected a blend of that and Roman culture. Paul changed it up a bit by adding a Christological spin, but it’s still the same ‘ol culture prevelant at that time.

    I guess the fact that you see no conflict between women prophesying and yet elsewhere told to be quiet underscores at what great lengths conservatives will go to justify or ignore problems in scripture. This is not being faithful to scripture but rather to a very human construct of what “inspiration” is supposed to mean.

    “where you see conflict, others see consistency. ”

    Otherwise known as putting one’s head in the sand.

    In closing, your opinion of my marriage doesn’t really matter much to me, sorry, nor does it matter you don’t think it “normal.” All I know and care about is it works and we are happy.

  • Realist, I understand the quandary posed by putting slogans you don’t agree with on cakes for customers, but I fail to see any difference between slogans one finds objectionable (but legal) and baking a wedding cake sans slogans for a wedding (that is legal). Like meat offered to idols, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with serving others unless doing so hurts your conscience. In that case the baker needs to find another line of work that doesn’t put him or her in a position where they compromise their “sincerely held religious beliefs.” I would add, however, that I don’t find much in the Bible about not serving others. Just a thought.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Sir, if you are genuinely interested in understanding my perspective, then please recognize this: no one in this current debate is supporting the idea of discriminating against people as people. Nothing in my post above could be interpreted, without gross mischaracterization, as to suggest that a restaurant owner can simply discriminate against people – be they black, gay, a BLM supporter, neoNazi, Muslim, or the like, or that it is appropriate to hang a “your kind not served here” sign.

    But can you simply recognize that this is different than being asked to participate in these groups’ activities, with which one may have qualms of conscience?

    Thus let me ask you simply: should a Jewish cellist who advertises his services to the public be forced, under pain of fines or other penalties from the government, to play the opening music at a NeoNazi rally celebrating Hitler’s birthday?

  • Daniel, you’ve described a hypothetical situation where political affiliation and or belief is the determining factor of discrimination. Since only a few cities and counties that protect against such discrimination, your Jewish cellist more than likely could refuse service at a Neo Nazi rally. There is a parallel Biblical reference that Jesus gave. We refer to it whenever we use the expression, “to go the extra mile.” In Jesus day a Jew could be required by Roman law to carry a centurian’s cloak for him, but only a mile. Jesus said to carry it further. Jesus was not concerned with the Jew’s rights. He was concerned with loving our neighbors, even if that neighbor was our enemy.

    Setting politics aside, the underlying problem with the “sincerely held religious beliefs” exception pushed by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian legal defense organization, is that there is no vested public interest being served by denying service to Gays, while it is harmful, discriminatory and disruptive to Gay individuals. In other words, the balance of injustice swings more heavily towards the LGBTQ community who are simply wanting to be treated as fairly as the straight community.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Sir, I fear you are still missing me: I am not (and to my understanding neither is the ADF) supporting “denying service to gays.” I personally think it wrong to “deny service to gays,” and such should be illegal. Hence, the musicians, photographers, florists and bakers in the news have clearly stated their stance that they have no issue whatsoever selling any of their wares or services to gay customers. They are not asking for a right to discriminate against gays. They are asking for freedom not to participate in events which they find immoral.

    Secondly, though, you have confirmed the basic point…. these photographers, musicians, etc., are specifically not asking for the right to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. They are, rather, asking for the freedom to discriminate on the basis of belief (regarding the morality of gay marriage), To borrow your words.

    There is the man who went around to various bakeries asking them to design a cake with the quote from Leviticus condemning homosexual behavior – and most refused, as I think they had every right to do. They similarly were not discriminating against the man for his religion, as they had no issue selling him anything in their store regardless of his faith…. what they took issue with was participating and being forced to contribute their talents to supporting something they found immoral.

    I similarly think it unethical, and ought to generally be illegal, for a musician or baker to descriminate against any evangelical/fundamentalist Christian on that basis. At the same time, I don’t think this requires a musician to be fined for declining to perform at a Westboro Baptist Church anti-gay rally, or the baker to design a cake with the levitical prohibition for them.

  • I am afraid I do understand you. But you do not understand the ethical principals of the Kingdom Jesus espoused. Like eating meat offered to idols was not the same as offering meat to idols, a Christian can cater or photograph a Gay wedding. He or she is not participating in a sexual orgy nor witnessing a sexual act. He or she is not under condemnation for doing so. Baking a cake or catering an event, such as, let’s say, a convention of porn stars, is not the same as endorsing pornography. One is simply doing one’s job.

    The queasiness evangelicals have about Gay weddings is based on Paul’s statement that, even though “all things are lawful,” one must be careful not to cause a brother or sister to “stumble.” Evangelicals fear that other Christians are A. Assuming they support Gay marriage, and, B. They are encouraging others to “come out” as Gay themselves. Since these are problems primarily due to the evangelical obsession with patriarchal society and a particular docetic understanding of scripture, I think they can learn to live with it.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Sir, I hear what you are saying. But then I must ask: would you also agree that a Christian can provide photography or play music for, say, a neonazi or white supremacist rally on the same basis? If so, then I admire your consistency, even if I disagree. You must see the potential tension there, no? Would we tell a Muslim T-shirt maker that when I ask for a T-shirt that says “f—- Muhammad”, he is likewise just doing his job? Maybe we also ought to show love, long suffering, and go the extra mile for that business owner by not trying to make him do something that is against his conscience, and simply taking our business to one of the other numerous companies that could still fulfill our request with no qualms.

    Additionally….you mentioned the item of meat sacrificed to idols. For the sake of the argument, let me grant you that a Christian could possibly in good conscience participate as you describe above. But would you also grant that, for the sake of our “weaker brothers”, we certainly ought not to push them into such participation if they do believe that their participation would for them be sin? Just as Paul encouraged the weaker brothers not to eat such meat if they thought doing so was sin?

  • Yes there has always been tension in a pluralistic society. There was in Paul’s day as well. Much of society revolved around idol worship, cult prostitution, orgies, the coliseum spectacles and the abuses surrounding slavery. As for slaves, Paul said to obey their masters. Doing so no doubt put them in danger of sexual abuse. No doubt Paul knew that. Christians were a persecuted minority, yet Paul did not tell them to stand up for their rights, but to deal with others in a spirit of meekness and humility. Sharing the love of Christ with all.

    Your example of the t-shirt printer is not a strong one as obscenity is involved, something most courts would agree are not something you would be bound to print. As for the weaker brothers comment, as I have stated previously, I would encourage them to find a different source of income.

    As a business owner, there really is a moral obligation to treat others fairly. I think as a Christian there is that obligation as well. It presents a good “witness” to others. Let me tell you how I would deal with baking a cake for a Gay couple if I was not affirming of Gay marriage:

    “I would be happy to serve you. I am a Christian who believes Biblical marriage is between a man and a woman, but because I know Christ loves you both deeply, I will bake you a beautiful cake and wish you the very best.”

    In this situation, the baker’s religious views are acknowledged, the couple are free to go elsewhere if uncomfortable, but the baker can serve with a clear conscience and in doing so share the love of God. Is that so hard?

    But in reality I think the whole evangelical drama surrounding sex is a smokescreen. There is always something to oppose, distracting from any real attempt for reform among evangelicals.

  • Daniel Fisher

    Actually, I have much more sympathy with your take when it come to bakers and florists. I’m just making/arranging a cake right flowers according to their specifications; what they want to do with it once I make it is up to them. I’ve asked other evangelicals in that context, if they were a grocer, would they refuse to sell eggs, flour, sugar, etc. if they discovered it would be used to make a gay wedding cake?

    So I personally think bakers and florists could “eat this meat sacrificed to idols,”. But that said, for the sake of those “weaker brethren”whose conscience is bothered by such, I don’t see it as kind or considerate for the government to force them to capitulate… especially given there is are plenty of other options.

    (For photographers and musicians, they are getting much closer to giving actual participation. Should a gay musician be similarly coerced into accepting a contract from Westboro Baptist Church?)

    And my concern is for the larger population, not just for Christian ethics. Why use government coercion to force someone to violate their conscience about supporting certain events?

    You are correct about the profanity (and not something I would personally do, either.). But let’s say some Christian evangelistic group wanted t-shirts printed that said “Muhammad was a false prophet.”

    I would fight tooth and nail for that Muslim to have the right to decline to print that particular t-shirt. He may be quite open to serving all manner of Christians in all manner of means. But once he tells me, for whatever reason, that his faith and convictions are at odds with what I am asking, why should we not simply respect him and his faith and just find another t-shirt shop? Why use the power of government coercion to force him or punish him? The Christian ethic of love. Sacrifice, and going the extra mile goes both ways. A truly diverse, kind and mutually respectful society could get along just fine in this manner.

  • Daniel Fisher

    One more thing, I am genuinely interested in your take: would you put certain limits to this “meat sacrificed to idols” as i asked before: would you similarly encourage a Christian musician to take the gig playing the opening kickoff music for a White-Supremacist rally, on that same basis of loving his neighbor, and going the extra mile?

  • I truly know what you are saying, rules can be a b**ch. but we have them for a reason. The Kingdom of God has just two rules, we have many. Why? Because we are not fully led by the Spirit. So it may be that “truly diverse, kind and mutually respectful society could get along just fine” but, we’re not a truly diverse and respectful society. We have laws on discrimination because people are not respectful of others. You need to stop thinking of hypothetical circumstances where discrimination is justifiable, and just accept SSM is the law of the land and make adjustments accordingly.

    The clash between religious doctrine and societal laws is nothing new. Mormons faced intense persecution and violence over their views on Biblical marriage, in this case, not only from the government, but Christians as well. A good example of how society over time has shaped Christian dogma. Christians in the South fought tooth and nail, and died for the Biblical “right” to own humans. Baptist’s split over it. Many still resent Blacks because of it. But the fact is, the Southerner’s sincerely held religious beliefs were overruled by law, and society has been the better for it. If there’s one thing for certain about evangelicals and history, it’s that they’ve learned little from the past mistakes of the church.

  • Brandon Roberts

    cause not like plenty of women and men end up murdered by spouses or anything.