No, Franklin Graham, God Didn’t Destroy Sodom & Gomorrah Because of Homosexuality

No, Franklin Graham, God Didn’t Destroy Sodom & Gomorrah Because of Homosexuality July 19, 2018

It’s a common claim accepted as truth: God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because gays had overrun the place.

This past week, Franklin Graham repeated this biblically illiterate and twisted claim as if the LGBTQ community should be on notice that wearing shirts that say, “So gay, so what?” might result in God sending fire from the sky like the good ole days.

Like blindly spouting, “God helps those who help themselves” is in the Bible without double checking, the claim that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over homosexuality remains one of those commonly repeated claims that is biblically false.

Tisk. Tisk.

No, God didn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexuality– and that’s what Franklin Graham is Wrong About Today.

No need to take my word for it– if the Bible is our authority, let’s just look there.

The Bible does tell us that Sodom and Gomorrah was overrun by wicked people, there’s no doubt about that. When Abraham tried to bargain with God to save the city, we remember he had to keep moving the goal post to strike a deal with the Almighty. And yet, in the end, the only ones to be saved were Abraham’s family who lived down there– and even that was clearly a matter of God just doing Abraham a solid, because later in the story we discover that Lot was a horrible human being who should have been at ground zero of God’s wrath.

I’m sure you also remember that God sent a couple of angels to do the extraction mission just in case the gang of misfit oil drillers failed to drill deep enough into the asteroid or detonate the nuke that would divert it into space and save the city.

Okay, I might be confusing that last part with a movie I saw once, but I think my point still stands.

Anyhoo, the angels went into the city to grab Lot and his family, but there was just one problem: their worst fears turned out to be true and the city was full of basically the worst people on the planet. They even formed a mob outside Lot’s house and wanted to haul these strangers out into the street and gang-rape them. Lot tried to talk them out of it, but they reminded him that he was just an immigrant and that they’d do even worse to him if he stood in their way.

Now, I *shouldn’t* have to explain that there’s a difference between being gay, and wanting to beat and gang-rape immigrants in your local town. If I have to, there’s a problem- but it’s not really my problem.

The irony here is that in fact, this wicked action tells us the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were likely harshly disapproving of being gay– which is precisely why they weaponized it. You see, in these ancient cultures homosexuality was largely despised because the one on the receiving end of the transaction was seen to take on the role of a woman– and if there’s one thing they hated more than gays, it was women.  Thus, for one man to rape another man wasn’t an act rooted in sexual desire, but an action rooted in humiliating and demoralizing that person. It would have been an action to strip them of their manhood. 

Had Lot seen them as being gay, he would never have offered to let them have sex with his virgin daughters instead (horrible human being, remember?). They weren’t interested in that option- not because of sexual orientation, not because they were seeking sexual pleasure, but because they wanted to send a strong message to these new immigrants who wandered into town.

This was rape. It was an anti-immigrant hate crime. None of it has anything to do with sexual orientation.

These weren’t people inviting the angels to come out and participate in a gay pride parade, but were instead trying to humiliate and demoralize them by forcing them to be on the receiving end of male/male sex, something that would have been extra detestable for these bronze age tribes.

So, say it with me: Trying to gang-rape immigrants as a way of humiliating and demoralizing them isn’t the same thing as just “being gay.”

What the people of Sodom wanted to do to the strangers who came to visit Lot revealed the deeper wickedness that made the city detestable to God: a lack of hospitality for strangers. In fact, for those who claim a belief in the inspiration of Scripture, we turn to the Bible itself to tell us why God destroyed the city:

“Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away when I saw it.” – Ezekiel 16:49-50

When God describes why he took these folks out, he lays out the case quite clearly: The people of Sodom were rich and full of themselves– thinking they were entitled to whatever they wanted, giving no thought to helping the poor or to showing hospitality to strangers (immigrants), and they showed scorn for anyone they felt was inferior to them (aka, “haughty”). To top it all off, they attempted to do something that should be seen as detestable in the eyes of anyone with a sliver of humanity.

Basically, when the mission to divert the asteroid failed, God was rather okay to put on that Bloodhound Gang song and tap his foot with the beat while humming “we don’t need no water…” and you know the rest.

But none of that has anything to do with being gay.

When the Bible describes a bunch of rich a%&@! who didn’t give a rip about the poor and needy, and who hated immigrants so much that they were content to rape and dehumanize them, it’s not describing the same thing as when that kid in your church youth group works up the courage to admit they’re gay.

It’s not the same thing. It’s not even close to the same thing.

And to sucker millions of people into blindly believing otherwise is What Franklin Graham is Wrong About Today.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

Be sure to check out his new blog, right here, and follow on Facebook:


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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • I really appreciate Ezekiel’s wording.

    “This was Sodom’s sin,” and lays it right out. It puts the fundagelicals in something of a bind. How do you start a, “Well, ACTUALLY…” rejoinder to that?

  • PremiumOsmium

    If he’s wrong, that means that most Christians get the point of the story wrong. How is it that most Christians for most of history get the point of the story wrong? Why is it that most Christian denominations teach that homosexuality is a sin precisely because of the story of Sodom?

  • There’s probably a number of components to that.

    As far as the point of the Sodom story, I don’t know if “most Christians for most of history” have gotten the point of the story wrong. For instance, in the early church fathers, Augustine and John Chrysostom identify the sin of Sodom as homosexuality, but Jerome identifies it as “pride, bloatedness, the abundance of all things, leisure and delicacies” and suggests that if they repented and fasted, they could have averted the disaster. These three church fathers are roughly contemporaries of each other. So, it seems like there’s always been a strain of Christian thought that identified Sodom with homosexuality and a strain that identified Sodom with pride and selfish excess.

    I’m also not sure that the Christian denominations that teach homosexuality is a sin do so on the basis of the story of Sodom, or at least not primarily on that basis, although it is certainly held up as an important example whenever you’re discussing it with them. The primary argumentation I’ve run into has been the Torah laws against homosexual behavior and some of Paul’s stray comments that are then also interpreted as laws against homosexuality.

    But I think back of both your questions is a great observation: why would someone read the story of Sodom and later biblical commentary on that story and think it’s about homosexuality?

    Part of that is that most Christians are very unfamiliar with the Bible and evangelicals especially so. They are familiar with their narrative of what the Bible allegedly teaches, but actually have trouble exegeting the Bible itself and are generally only familiar with passages directly relevant to that narrative. The majority of Christians who would hold up Sodom as an example of God’s views on homosexuality are completely unaware that Ezekiel actually defines what their sin was. Exceptions apply, obviously.

    But I’d say that’s the crux of the problem – the conflation of the narrative in one’s head of “what the Bible teaches” and the text that’s in the Bible.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    because each Christian invents their religion in their image.

  • Tim

    6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
    7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
    (2 Pe 2:6–7).

    6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an dexample in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
    (Jud 6–7).

    First, “being gay” wasn’t the sin. A sin that Sodom was doing was male to male sex. Among other things as mentioned. How do you interpret “strange flesh” and “sensual conduct” in these NT evaluations of the Sodom story, and square your article with the Jewish law, and Romans 1?

  • PremiumOsmium

    Well, Franklin Graham, Augustine, and Chrysotom are more knowledgeable about the Bible and far better Christians than I ever was. Who’s to say they’re wrong? Franklin Graham gave the opening prayer at Trump’s inauguration, after all. Doesn’t that indicate that his views are the mainstream and correct ones, especially since they’re in line with 2000 years of Christian teaching and tradition?

  • otrotierra

    Thank you Dr. Corey for speaking elementary truth, no matter how outrageously offensive it is to U.S. White Evangelical Franklin Graham and his Evangelical followers.

    Jesus taught his followers to “Seek..” Will Graham and his White Evangelical followers listen? Let’s observe this comment section:

  • I can’t speak for Augustine and Chrysostom, but I doubt Franklin Graham is a far better Christian than you, even if you’re not a Christian at all. But my point was that A) church history has always had Christians and theologians who did not see the Sodom story in terms of homosexuality and B) most contemporary evangelicals don’t know what the Bible says.

    Franklin Graham most definitely is not representative of mainstream Christianity. He may be representative of mainstream American evangelicalism (which is, in turn, not representative of mainstream Christianity), and I would agree with you that the vast majority of American evangelicals would tell you Sodom is about homosexuality. But that’s a small percentage of Christians -today-, much less when you tally up the entirety of Christianity historically and worldwide.

  • How do you square those verses with Ezekiel’s contention that Sodom’s sin was “pride, fulness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy?”

    Is Ezekiel wrong or is 2 Peter and the Book of Enoch via Jude?

    OR is it that Sodom was a city that was full of self gratification who oppressed outsiders and strangers and tried to rape some guys, thus making sense of all those passages?

  • And the angels didn’t seek entry legally. They probably deserved it. Good point.

  • seanchaiology

    Is this a real set of questions?

    What does Graham giving an opening prayer at an inauguration have to do with it? When a president throws out a first pitch at a baseball game, does that mean he is an expert in pitching? Is mainstream always correct? If so, we’d still oppress many more people than we do today. Why just assume they are more knowledgeable than yourself? Just because they are well-known does not necessarily mean they are more insightful on things than yourself, why sell yourself so short? And, even if they are, why simply rest on that and not do the research and study for yourself? Then, maybe, or maybe not, it will be you that is the one who’s to say they’re wrong.

  • Herm

    Tim, does “GOD” abide by the law or only insist that “MAN”, in Their image, does?

  • Dr. Corey is not really interested in understanding why God destroyed Sodom. He is interested in criticizing Graham. Whatever Graham says it can’t be true. I am more disappointed we did not get a blog about Trump and Putin.

  • He can’t do that. it doesn’t fir his narrative.

  • Herm

    Oh, Premium “Smell”, how is it that most of the authorities of “God’s chosen people” got the story so wrong that they judged to crucify the Son of Man/Son of God in God’s name under the authority of the Moses seat?

    Truth is not determined by quantity of believers but solely by they who know the truth. He asks us, as His sibling students, to pick up our own cross and not to pass judgment on others. You, Os, are clearly not of God as Christ’s student, but the student of Man and their haughty judgments.

  • Tim

    God is the law, it is rooted in His nature. Therefore I don’t understand your question.

  • Herm

    God is spirit. The image of God is spirit, not carnal. Children of God, on earth today, are not carnal children of God but are spirit, no longer just an image but of God in the Spirit.

    The sum of the law that God abides solely in is, in everything do to others as you would have others do to you? If your children, in this country, were surely destined to be raped and must join gangs or die, would you choose to immigrate with your family? Would you have other countries accept you in love, as their neighbor?

    Josh, you quibble!

  • Tim

    16:49–52. Sodom’s sin was her haughty unconcern for the needs of others in spite of her wealth. Also the Sodomites did detestable things before God. This could refer to their deviate sexual aberrations (cf. Gen. 19:4–5). The sin of Samaria, though not specifically stated, was her idolatry. But Jerusalem’s sins were so vile that, in comparison, the sins of both Sodom and Samaria seemed almost like righteous deeds!

    Dyer, C. H. (1985). Ezekiel. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 1, p. 1258). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

    The author’s point is was the Jerusalem’s sins where worse than Sodom’s and Samaria. The highlight of the sin’s isn’t exhaustive but showed a parallel. Jewish, we can assume, didn’t have much in the way of homosexual sin because of the laws against it, therefore it would not need to be highlighted here, but what we do know is whatever the Jews were doing it was really really bad, and they were getting judged because of it.

  • Herm

    Bullshit! If you are a parent, like the Father is a parent to all the children of God in the Spirit, are you the law or do you teach the law that you know your children will survive by if they choose to adhere to it, as do you? You really don’t believe that Jesus could have asked, and received, legions of angels to protect Him from crucifixion, do you?

    God is not the law. God knows the law. God lives eternally under the law. What sums up the law that God lives under? What does all the law and prophets hang on?

    Seek God!

  • Matthew

    Didn´t Franklin Graham call separating children from their parents at the U.S. border disgraceful and terrible?

    If so, there was no mention of such here and it might have been a good opportunity to find some common ground
    with someone who seems to be an enemy most of the time. Maybe an article entitled “What Franklin Graham Is Right
    About Today” would have been in order?

    Please do not interpret this as me being a fan of Franklin Graham. Most of the time I am not.

  • Herm

    I rest my case since your teacher is Alan Rickman. You could not possibly understand One Teacher, One Father and One Instructor, each within each other. You could not possibly understand that when the Spirit is with and in the rapable/crucifiable siblings of Christ as one on this earth, as he is with and in the Instructor and the Father as one, they, Jesus’ siblings, don’t need Alan Rickman to know whether or not angels have the parts to commit or be raped. They, angels, do not have the Spirit to commit rape but they certainly were seen by the responsible citizen’s of Sodom to at least have threatened rape of them. They, the citizens of Sodom, no more recognized the Spirit in them, the angels, than did the Pharisees and teachers of the law (Alan Rickman?) recognize the Spirit of God in Jesus the Christ.

    You don’t know what is, or is not, relevant when you do not know the Teacher with and in you.

  • Herm

    Who’s to say they’re wrong?

    Christ!!!

  • Virginia Bemis

    Preach that word, Brother Corey!

  • Linda Coleman Allen

    I love the Franklin Graham columns. Billy Graham devoted his life to saving souls and Franklin is disgusting. When I was a young woman, I had several gay friends. They were nothing like the stereotypes that people come up with. One should not talk about things they know nothing about. That is what Franklin Graham does.

  • Al Cruise

    Once you take the approach that Graham did you’re on a slippery slope. Does that mean the 26 who died in the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs shooting were killed because they were sinful in God’s eyes? What about all the natural disasters that occur on a regular basis and people who believe like Graham unfortunately die in them , should we then assume their death was warranted because God definitely would not kill them if there wasn’t sin in their lives. This kind of stuff only shows off the ignorance of Graham and people who believe like him . Many are now calling fundamentalism a mental illness that impedes the ability to think critically. No wonder people are leaving their Churches in droves.

  • Ron McPherson

    LOL!!!

  • Ron McPherson

    Oh great Herm. Now you’ll really get the evangelicals riled up. You just had to go and bring Jesus into it didn’t ya? Thanks a lot!

  • Jan Westbury

    Thanks Ben. I remember feeling so much better about God when I read Karen Armstrong’s same explanation for “God’s” wrath on the cities in one of her books (failure to be hospitable to strangers). She augments with fascinating details about how men in these ancient cities would come out to challenge, even rape, strangers who showed up. It was a thing back then and detestable to God/Israelites.

  • otrotierra

    U.S. White Evangelicals like Franklin Graham and his followers are unraveling as they witness their White Evangelical Hegemony and Privilege crumble in real time. What is remarkable is that their steady stream of lies and deception fails to conceal Truth.

    Just like Bob Shiloh and Josh in this very comment section: they keep lying, derailing, and obfuscating. Yet neither their deception nor their sophistry will keep Truth from being proclaimed.

  • In 2 Peter I would say that ” καὶ δίκαιον Λὼτ καταπονούμενον ὑπὸ τῆς τῶν ἀθέσμων ἐν ἀσελγείᾳ ἀναστροφῆς ἐρρύσατο” doesn’t speak of “sensual”, especially not in the way we’d use the word. ἀσελγείᾳ is much more speaking to an absolutely “outrageous” behavior. This was an absolutely “outrageous” sexual behavior– it had nothing to do with orientation, but everything to do with domination. Think prison rape.

    Jude is quite easy as well– he called it “strange flesh”. And well, they were angels, so that would absolutely be “strange” flesh. Had the author of that verse wanted to simply draw out the same sex angle (something that’s doubtful as Sodom didn’t become associated with homosexuality until later), he would have used the term “same” flesh like the word “homo” (same). Seems clear he deliberately used the word “strange” to refer to the fact they were angelic and not human.

    Romans 1 doesn’t speak of Sodom & Gomorrah so I’m not sure how that one helps us understand anything about the Genesis story.

  • Appreciate the question but it follows down a path of a logical fallacy. Just because the majority believes something, doesn’t make it true or right. Think slavery.

  • Exactly correct. And the Jewish power structure was being judged for oppression, not butt sex.

    Prophetic indictments of Israel for centuries centered around this point. Hosea 6. Isaiah 1. Jeremiah 23, and perhaps most relevant to Ben’s point – Ezekiel 34 itself.

  • I didn’t think you could come up with something less relevant than your original comment, but the nature of angel’s rights may have edged out the observation that Sodom’s sin was contingent on the duration of their visit.

  • Herm

    God immigrated, intending to remain permanently in the hearts and minds of Man, in the carnal form of Man, to teach Man how to love others as themselves. Love, in the image of God, is picking up each our own cross for all neighborly others. Lot was told to leave, and immigrate to another land, that his family might live apart from the fall of Sodom. We are told, by Christ, that we are welcome to immigrate from the family of Man, before its fall, into the eternal family of God. God does not stop any who live by the law, according to Matthew 7:12 and 22:37-40, from permanently entering Their family (nation). Is that law relevant here? Do those calling themselves Christian all abide in that law in this land that they claim God gave them? What is the context here?

  • “…later in the story we discover that Lot was a horrible human being who should have been at ground zero of God’s wrath.”

    This is false. Because it is false, the conclusions that depend on it in the rest of the a post are logically invalid.

    We know this for two reasons. First, Abraham did not request that Lot be saved by name, he requested that city be saved on account of the righteous that lived there. Who were these righteous? Lot and his family of course. How do we know they were righteous? Because (a) they were saved; and (b) 2 Peter tells us that Lot was righteous.

    Your point doesn’t even make sense. If Lot should have been the recipient of God’s wrath, then why did God go to so much trouble to save him? The whole point of the narrative is that God would not destroy the city while the righteous still lived there. Lot and his family had to be removed precisely because God is just.

    “You see, in these ancient cultures homosexuality was largely despised because the one on the receiving end of the transaction was seen to take on the role of a woman”

    What ancient cultures considered to be acceptable is not morally relevant. Only God’s commands are morally relevant. But we can even grant your point for sake of argument: male homosexuality is wrong because it treats a man as a woman. Thus, if the act includes two voluntary participants, logically both must be culpable. As expected, the Law would later condemn both men, including unequivocally the man performing the act. The Law further states that the recipient of rape is not culpable, only the person performing the rape. Thus, in the case of homosexual rape, only the person performing the act would be condemned. This is logical even without the Law as guide. Therefore, it’s logically contradictory to say that these ancient cultures considered consensual homosexual acts to be abhorrent and then engaged in them voluntarily because the were not the recipients.

    “Ezekiel 16:49-50”

    You’ve concluded that their homosexual acts were not part of their abomination. This does not follow logically. While God had already decided to destroy them prior to the angels visiting Lot, they were guilty of a multitude of sins and were not destroyed for any one in particular. Their attempted rape was just a small part of their total abomination, but it was a part of it nonetheless.

    “…giving no thought to helping the poor or to showing hospitality to strangers (immigrants)”

    You’ve created a false dilemma. Let’s repeat the applicable quote from Ezekiel: “…poor and needy…”. This is not poor and immigrants. It is not poor and strangers. It is not poor and those treated inhospitably. It is poor and needy. Certainly immigrants can be needy, but this is not a passage about immigrants. Surely I don’t need to explain a part-whole relationship?

  • vmelkon

    Why doesn’t copy and paste work here?
    Are you claiming that homosexuality was despised in Sodom and gomorah? How do you know?
    The ultimate goal here is that you want to pretend that christianity is ok with homosexuality. This jewish god wants people to stone male homosexuals to death. Even the new testament is against it.
    So what’s with all the tip toeing? Perhaps you should consider dumping Judaism/Christianity if its morals are not congruent with your own.
    ~~~~atheist

  • vmelkon

    That kind of thinking is present in the Westboro Baptist Church and probably was present in all churches ~1000 years ago.
    I think people are leaving the churches bc it is from the stone age. There is no evidence to support that the jewish god is real. Modern science has been eating away at it since the 1700.
    ~~~~atheist

  • vmelkon

    The jewish god also killed all the kids of Sodom & Gomorrah. Why isn’t anybody talking about that?

  • Herm

    So, the “contextual” argument and admonishment, that you raise in this forum dedicated to Christ’s instructions, is purely relative to your aversion to a “demagogue”, right?

    Demagogue
    1: a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power
    2 : a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times

    According to the high priest, Caiaphas, Christ Jesus made use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power. Would you agree that most claiming to be Christians today believe Christ was truly a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times?

    First: none of mankind is a permanent resident on earth.
    Second: all of mankind is migrating from point to point on earth throughout their life, possibly not considered so only when bedridden.
    Third: The exampled good neighbor was the Samaritan, migrating through the land under Jewish stewardship … those who were not neighbors, to love as the victim’s self according to the law, to the Jew was his religious authorities.
    Fourth: There is nothing we own, are responsible to, beyond our heart, our soul, our strength, our mind (each together in the image of God as no other specie of animal on earth owns to be responsible to).
    Fifth: You speak as though you define God in your image and seek “him” as you would to appease a volcano god so as not to destroy “your” village and crops.
    Sixth: “suppose we just exist apart from him” We, of the animal species mankind, do live apart from God when we are not a child of God. Having the image of God does not make us one with God. When we see and accept the Spirit of truth to be eternally with and in us, we become in God and God in us. God is a singular (bound by all love) plurality of many hearts, souls, strengths, and minds with one Father (not of any particular gender). All of God is one bound in the Spirit by all love that each is responsible to in their each unique heart, soul, strength, mind.
    Seventh: God is spirit. God does not function carnally except when he, appearing as a dove, enters and remains in a physical body that is receptive, in all love, within its heart, soul, strength, mind. God only functions carnally to communicate within the limitations of mankind who do not function with and in the Spirit of truth.
    Eighth: Any form of carnal animal sexuality is not of God’s concern except to propagate each dying species. All relationships of concern to all of God is summed up by the law regulating eternal life in all relationships; in everything do to others as you would have others do to you. Relationships between reciprocally consenting adults is in all ways within the law of eternal life.

    Josh, you argue God, and life, as like by the authority of Caiaphas rather than according to Christ who has all authority in heaven and on earth. According to your distaste for demagoguery, and associating me as a demagogue, you place me in divine company, thank you. I carry my cross for you, also, that you too might one day learn to live with and in the Spirit of truth.

  • Realist1234

    Balanced as always, Matthew.

  • Tim

    Not sure where you are making the connection between orientation and Graham’s comments. Just having an orientation isn’t and has never been the issue. We are all oriented to sin. Me, you, everyone reading this. It is the action that is the issue. You can’t on one had say “God saw them as awful people, and they did X” but doing X isn’t bad. What? That makes no sense. I am not trying to single anyone out here, but if you want to deny homosexual actions as not sinful, I think there is a bit more work to do.

    Romans 1 points to sex acts outside the prescription of God’s will. It shows the consistency of the biblical teaching.

  • I’m going to believe that you’re not so stupid that you’re unaware I was mocking the “immigration” narrative. You’re welcome to prove me wrong in that belief. Although I generally consider your posts to have little value, I’ve never thought of you as a straight up doofus.

  • Tim

    The comparison as God the Father and me as human created father breaks down. I am not God. I don’t have his nature, perspective, knowledge, or will. I am fallen and sinful, God is none of these things. Jesus says only God is good. The Philosophers have settled this 2000 years ago, and William Lane Craig has done a great deal of work on God being the grounding of good.

    The Euthyphro Dilemma The other response you can count on getting from unbelievers is the so-called Euthyphro dilemma, named after a character in one of Plato’s dialogues. It basically goes like this: Is something good because God wills it? Or does God will something because it is good? If you say that something is good because God wills it, then what is good becomes arbitrary. God could have willed that hatred is good, and then we would have been morally obligated to hate one another. That seems crazy. Some moral values, at least, seem to be necessary. But if you say that God wills something because it is good, then what is good or bad is independent of God. In that case, moral values and duties exist independently of God, which contradicts premise 1. Answer to the Euthyphro Dilemma We don’t need to refute either of the two horns of the Euthyphro dilemma, because the dilemma it presents is a false one: There’s a third alternative, namely, God wills something because He is good. What do I mean by that? I mean that God’s own nature is the standard of goodness, and His commandments to us are expressions of His nature. In short, our moral duties are determined by the commands of a just and loving God.

    Craig, William Lane. On Guard: Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision (Kindle Locations 2204-2213). David C. Cook. Kindle Edition.

  • The thing that gives me hope is these last two rounds of undeniable deception on the part of the current US administration is causing even would-be supporters to fall away. They just can’t do it, anymore, because it’s so incredibly obvious they’re being lied to.

    Sure, there’s still a sizable core of support, but you can’t have an Antichrist without people who believe he’s the Messiah, which is where Bob et al tend to hang out, epistemically speaking. There’s really nothing you can do about that. You hope that the evidence will turn the tide, but then you also have to contend with the fact that this is the same guy who argued stridently that Adam wrote the first part of Genesis, so….

  • Tim

    I think you are making some assumptions here. No where in scripture is homosexual actions spoken up favorably. From Genesis on God prescribes one man, one woman marriage. Do people step outside of this in the bible? Yes! Are there negative consequences for doing so? Yes! When homosexual sex in mentioned in the context of awful people, considering the full context of scripture we can conclude it was part of the evil.

    Now again, this is action not orientation.

  • “it had nothing to do with orientation, but everything to do with domination.”

    There is nothing wrong with a married man and woman having sex. But a man raping a woman corrupts the normal and acceptable behaviors. What about sex between two married men? The ancient cultures (including Judaism) believed that homosexual acts debased the recipient. If homosexual gang rape debases the recipient, then homosexual gang rape cannot be a corruption of normal and acceptable consensual homosexual activity because that activity also debases the recipient. Rather, the logical conclusion is that homosexual acts corrupt the normal and acceptable heterosexual acts.*

    Allegedly, the people of Sodom believed that consensual homosexual acts were abhorrent, but homosexual rape was acceptable. Let’s say they were wrong about the latter; homosexual rape is actually abhorrent. It is a false analogical conclusion that consensual married homosexual acts are thus normal and acceptable. You’ve concluded that homosexual rape is merely a corruption of normal and acceptable consensual homosexual acts because rape is wrong. But rape is wrong regardless of whether or not consensual sexual acts are wrong.

    You acknowledge that these cultures thought consensual homosexual activity was abhorrent, and yet you think that when the Bible criticizes Sodom’s homosexual gang rape it is only because it disapproves of the gang rape. Lot, a righteous man, offered his daughters to [dominating] gang rape. If the issue was primarily the abhorrence of [dominating] gang rape, this action doesn’t make sense. Another explanation is required. Perhaps, instead, you are suggesting that the gang rape of immigrant men is markedly worse than the gang rape of women or one’s own daughters?

    * If you want to say that homosexual acts do not debase the recipient, the logical conclusion is to reject the Bible. No mental gymnastics are required.

    “Jude is quite easy as well”

    The men of Sodom (including Lot) thought they were foreigners, not angels. Did the men of Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding cities all want to have sex with angels? Of course not: they never went after sex with angels because they didn’t know they were angels. Your explanation is plainly impossible.

    “…he would have used the term “same” flesh like the word “homo” (same). Seems clear he deliberately used the word “strange” to refer to the fact they were angelic and not human.”

    This argument doesn’t work. Using the same argument, you can say that since he didn’t use the word for angels, he must have meant homosexual acts.

  • My response has been marked as spam. I’m not sure if this is censorship or just an automated check. I guess we’ll see.

  • What various passages say about homosexuality is one discussion. What we’re talking about is whether or not Sodom was destroyed because its population was homosexual, or whether there was a different issue that characterized their population and this issue provides a better context for understanding the Lot story.

    Whether or not there are passages in the Bible that speak negatively about homosexuality does not tell us if that’s what the issue was in Sodom. What Ben is saying is that Ezekiel lays out what Sodom’s issues were, and these issues provide a context for understanding why the men outside Lot’s house wanted to rape the angels (an act that was obviously wrong, certainly) and why God’s wrath would be brought against Sodom. This is over and against Franklin Graham’s contention that the people of Sodom were gay and God destroyed them because of gayness.

    The perspective any given biblical writing has on homosexuality is certainly an interesting and important topic of discussion, but it’s not directly relevant to Ben’s refutation of Graham. Various biblical writings have negative things to say on a wide variety of topics that may or may not have been issues for Sodom.

  • Herm

    As with all specific interdependent carnal life species on earth, “Mankind” has the overall responsibility to its survival, despite the wishes of cancerous egotistical self-centered adult and child members. If it your wish to teach your child to covet, to bear false witness, to commit adultery, to steal, and to not honor their father and mother by your example then such is counter to the survival of mankind. Mankind does have the responsibility, as one species, to dictate that the children you bear be raised to be constructive to the survival of mankind and not be a source for its demise. Destructive abuse of the body of mankind cannot be tolerated if mankind is to survive.

    Josh, the Spirit of truth came to live permanently (eternally, even) with and in children of Man/children of God. You reject him. God is not a “he” but is an us. Who taught you by their wishes that was not of God?

    No carnal person can come to live permanently in any nation, period. That is a myth you might wish for, and teach your children, but you know in your heart and mind that all carnal beings will die to return to the earth from whence they came.

    There is only one Teacher and he is the Spirit of truth, despite your wishes!

  • Herm

    No, straight out of the mouth of Jesus.

  • I extensively use HTML tags for quoting, highlighting and emphasis. Sometimes I get tagged as spam for a comment here or there, but I got tagged for multiple comments here, which is unusual. I would rather assume that it’s an automated mistake.

  • Derek, I brought your comment out of moderation. It had been flagged as spam and not objectionable content, but I’m not sure why.

    I have in the past occasionally removed a comment as a moderator, a few times when it’s been a string of profanities and a couple of times when it was explicit hate speech. Although I disagree with your comment, I don’t see anything spammish about it. Maybe the subdivisions tricked the system or something. In any case, it’s back out now.

  • That was something Franklin Graham was right about that day.

  • Happy the Fishy

    Hi Josh! Ben made the point that homosexuality had nothing to do with this. It was a power move made by the whole town to warn foreigners not to go there. They could have just killed them, but that would not as effective send a message back to the source of the foreigners. Male on male rape has been used as a horrific (as all rape is) tool to strip men of their masculinity. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

  • Dr. Corey has stated that homosexuality has nothing to do with the destruction of Sodom and Franklin Graham has stated that this is the primary reason. The reason this is one discussion (and not two) is because of the contention that homosexuality was one of a number of reasons why Sodom was destroyed. Two simultaneous discussions are required: one to refute Franklin Graham and one to refute Dr. Corey.

  • Herm

    That is only a dilemma when God is misperceived as a “he” determining all destinies of mankind. Hatred is always destructive to the target, and the bearer, just as gravity, on earth, will always suck. Love of one’s enemy, as one would have one’s enemy love them, is productive to all. The law of eternal life was, is, and will always be what is constructive, regardless of what the eternal, no beginning and no end, They, God, wills. God lives only because They are in full harmony with the law, not because They dictated the law that protects life forever. Real law is the law of reality and the truth that God lives within. God does not enforce the law of truth, but graces us, empathetic in love for us who are in Their image, by teaching us the law that would exist even if God did not.

    Your argument assumes an all powerful volcano god that must be appeased that we might live. The Euthyphro Dilemma defines a god in Man’s image not Man in God’s image. The God I know with and in the Spirit teaches, not dictates, the law They know, and live by, that we, children of Man, too might live without end as children of God today.

    Rather than quote the musings of Man, as your source for truth, perhaps it would be more constructive to all if you quoted the Teacher, or at minimum the words of Christ as found in your Bible.

  • Happy the Fishy

    Because the bible makes a case that all life came from and will return to God. Killing these children is not so much evil as it is inevitable from the bible god’s perspective. Think of this like a farm or ranch where the owner attempts to prevent animals are from attacking each other but he can kill them any time he likes.

  • Herm

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/02/24/parents-accused-of-torturing-their-13-children-face-new-charges/?utm_term=.da5baaaed30d

    The children of migrants, at our borders, who were removed from their parents to dissuade other migrants from seeking asylum is a much different topic, with clearly no governance under the sum of the law, as taught by Jesus.

  • Matthew

    Always great when you are around and offer up your 3 cents Phil :-)

  • PremiumOsmium

    I did read up on the Bible, that’s one of the main reasons I’m an atheist. I won’t follow a book that advocates for slavery, oppression of women, murder of homosexuals, or supports the violation of fundamental human rights. Even if I weren’t an atheist I couldn’t be a Christian, since I find the very premise of Christianity to be morally repugnant, unjust, and incoherent. That God had to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself is nothing short of absurdity.

  • PremiumOsmium

    The Bible supports slavery.

  • vmelkon

    I think that all christians don’t understand their religion. If they did, there wouldn’t be 37,000 sects. Each of them read the bible and understand it their own way. The Bible has a lot of vague parts that is interpreted, reinterpreted, generation after generation.
    In the end, the Sodom story is irrelevant. There are about 3 or 4 lines that say that god of the jews hates homosexuals. It doesn’t use the word hate, but when you ask people to kill another person, it involves hate for that person.

  • The Mouse Avenger

    Exactly!

    (facepalms in frustration) How many times does this all need to be reiterated to Biblically-illiterate bozos?

  • vmelkon

    The bible says that the reason for killing the people of Sodom is that they were evil.
    My question is, what is the reason for killing the children, the babies, the fetuses?
    A farmer kills his animals for food. Or he kills them and sells the meat. This is part of our biology and social structure. It isn’t a meaningless killing.
    Think of capital punishment. A country may choose to execute a criminal. Should they also kill his children and significant other, uncles, aunts, cousins, friends?

  • The Mouse Avenger

    You don’t know a single thing about what true Christianity &/or Judaism is all about, apparently.

  • Herm

    Copy and paste works perfectly well here, “Why doesn’t copy and paste work here?” It must be something on your side.

    “christianity” is not, as a whole, ok with homosexuality. Christ is!

  • The Mouse Avenger

    Ah, shush it, you nitwit!

  • Herm

    This is not poor and immigrants.” Are you referring to the poor immigrants seeking asylum (once considered legal by the Attorney General in the USA) from certain death as not “poor and needy“?

  • vmelkon

    Nope!

  • vmelkon

    Jesus is ok with homosexuality? How do you know?

  • vmelkon

    I read the Bible. The lines against gay men is in there. Would you like me to quote the lines?

  • I’m not sure what you’re arguing, here. What the Torah or Paul say about homosexuality in principle doesn’t establish whether or not it was the reason Sodom was destroyed.

  • Hey Derek,

    WRT Lot being “the righteous,” that is correct, but that doesn’t mean Lot was a moral or even good person. Dikaion simply means “being right.” It may connote being moral, but in itself is a morally neutral term. A person is dikaion if they follow the terms of their contract or hold to a correct belief. There’s not a necessary contradiction between Lot being a terrible person and Lot being on the “right” side of the situation with Sodom. You might argue that Lot was actually a moral person and have at it, but I wanted to point out that the author of 2 Peter calling Lot “righteous” does not inherently mean Lot was unworthy of God’s wrath.

    WRT what ancient peoples considered acceptable or not, this is actually very relevant as biblical passages did not arise in a transhistorical vacuum but were, in fact, produced in concrete historical contexts that very much inform the likelihood of various interpretations. For instance, since Sodom was not an Israelite city, what Torah did or didn’t say would be completely irrelevant to them. What a citizen of Sodom thought about homosexuality is relevant in determining a Sodom citizen’s relationship to homosexual behavior.

    As a corollary to this, it’s well documented that even heterosexual rape has little to do with people just being horny and wanting sex right then and much more to do with contempt and dominance and is usually premeditated. When we look at cases of homosexual rape in prison, for example, which is probably more like the situation described in Genesis, we find men with absolutely no homosexual inclination engaging in this activity. In some cases, this may be an issue of the fact that there are only men around and someone finally snaps in a fit of sexual frustration, but most of the cases are, again, cases of dominance and oppression. For instance, fights that break out in prison sometimes end in rape, not because one party was sexually aroused, but to demonstrate to the other party that they are vulnerable and at the mercy of the rapist and there’s nothing the rapist can’t take from them.

    You can look into studies on rape if you like, or I can refer you to some if you think that point is contentious. What I’m getting at is that there are ample, empirically verifiable reasons for a man to rape another man that have nothing to do with homosexual desire, and when taken in conjunction with Ezekiel’s indictment, I think it’s far more likely that the prospective rape in the Lot story is about dominance and abuse than a bunch of horny gay people congregating outside Lot’s door because some especially good-looking men were there.

  • Disqus flagged the comment as spam and I have brought it out of moderation.

  • Realist1234

    Ben, I think both of you are wrong!

    Graham is wrong if he is saying that gay sex was the only reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. But I think you are wrong if you think gay sex had nothing to do with it.

    One can hardly simply remove the forced, violent aspect to the potential rape of the 2 men (angels in reality but not to the people of the city), but one cannot either remove the sexual nature of it. It seems to me God condemned both aspects. In the Ezekiel passage, the Lord compares Jerusalem with Sodom, and uses specifically sexual descriptions of Jerusalem’s behaviour. Clearly it is symbolic of her betrayal of God, but we cannot remove the obvious sexual connotations – it would seem in Jerusalem sexual immorality had become pervasive. The same can be said of Sodom: ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. ‘ It is hard not to come to the conclusion that rampant sexual immorality is included within ‘detestable things’.

    This is backed up by 2 Peter 2, where the author uses ‘ ἀσελγείᾳ ‘ to describe the behaviour of the men of these cities, and this word seems to have definite sexual overtones given how it is used elsewhere in the NT.

    In summary, Sodom and Gomorrah were condemned for their self-satisfied, uncaring, idolatrous and immoral sexual behaviours.

    When rereading the Ezekiel passage, it reminded me of many countries around the world. It seems nothing changes.

  • Happy the Fishy

    I cannot see where Corey “conjectured” that this was used to discourage homosexual behavior. He wrote”You see, in these ancient cultures homosexuality was largely despised because the one on the receiving end of the transaction was seen to take on the role of a woman– and if there’s one thing they hated more than gays, it was women. Thus, for one man to rape another man wasn’t an act rooted in sexual desire, but an action rooted in humiliating and demoralizing that person. It would have been an action to strip them of their manhood.” This is similar to what has been done elsewhere such as: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

  • It’s worth noting that the Jewish interpretation of the story does not include homosexuality either, although to be fair, ask four rabbis a question and get at least five answers.

  • Richard W. Fitch

    I scanned to see if this point had already been made but did not find anything. When we see the word “abomination” in any English translation, chances are it refers to idol worship. “Abomination and abominable” in most of the English speaking world have come to mean things that are against general social values (like picking one’s nose at the table during a State dinner). On the other hand, the Biblical meaning is “that which is ceremonially impure” as found in the Laws of the Torah. Whether or not sex between two men is an ‘abomination’ according to the Bible, there is never any discussion of the type of gay relationships in our era which include the establishment of a home and the rearing of children. Same sex attraction was seen as a physical act and not as an innate part of one’s psychological makeup. The two sides of this discussion will probably go on for many more decades to come. Hopefully, it can be conducted with facts and the attitude of ladies and gentlemen.

  • Elephile

    Finally!

  • Timothy Kincaid

    Josh… “Not to mention, shouldn’t we find this incredibly insulting toward the intelligence of ancient persons to say that they hate homosexuality so much that a man will rape another man to prove it?”

    This isn’t really a question up to theory. This is a historical fact and, frankly, one that can be verified within minutes on the internet.

    Many many many ancient cultures raped men when they conquered an enemy. It was a way of showing dominance. I’m the man, I’m in power, you’re nothing but someone who serves my whim like a woman.

  • Timothy Kincaid

    Billy Graham built lifetime of respect for others and decency so all so that he could reach all people – presidents, princes, and paupers. It infuriates me that Franklin Graham has distorted and perverted Billy’s message and uses Billy’s reputation to push politics and make claims which would shame his father.

  • Timothy Kincaid

    They don’t have ears to hear

  • Timothy Kincaid

    Tim… not sure what translation you’re using but they seem to have strayed a bit from the origins of the text

  • Timothy Kincaid

    You make a good point… in the first century, the story of Sodom was not understood to be about same-sex behavior.

  • otrotierra

    Yes, this is precisely the question. Do U.S. White Evangelicals following TrumpPutin have eyes to see and ears to hear? Their own behavior, as evidenced in this very comment section, provides a concrete answer.

    Just last week, TrumpPutin advisor Pastor Paula White plainly explained to the world that the law-breaking Jesus is not their Savior. They tell us all we need to know about their own fraudulent gospel and theological malpractice. Observe:

  • Timothy Kincaid

    I think that the way to understand Sodom’s sin is not to focus on what happened that night, but to see why God sent angels there in the first place.

    BEFORE they residents of Sodom sought to rape the angels, was God pissed at Sodom? Yes. BEFORE the attempted rape, what was the reason God wanted to destroy Sodom?

    Genesis 13:13 Now the people of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the Lord.

    and

    Genesis 18:16 “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

    What had they done… dunno. But no hint that it was male on male sex. No suggestion. No implication. Just that they were wicked.

    But NOTHING in the precursor says “it’s the homos”. Nothing says they’d raped anyone else. Zero mention. Yet God was going to destroy them for “wickedness” whatever that was.

    Which is why the Ezekiel passage is so relevant.

  • Ezekiel: “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”

    Dr. Corey: “The people of Sodom were rich and full of themselves– thinking they were entitled to whatever they wanted, giving no thought to helping the poor or to showing hospitality to strangers (immigrants), and they showed scorn for anyone they felt was inferior to them (aka, “haughty”).”

  • “You might argue that Lot was actually a moral person and have at it, but I wanted to point out that the author of 2 Peter calling Lot “righteous” does not inherently mean Lot was unworthy of God’s wrath.”

    I might argue?The Genesis 18 and 2 Peter 2 passages about righteousness are anything but “being right in a morally neutral way”. The former (Abraham) was a righteous icon for Judaism as a whole. The latter compares the righteous (including Lot) and unrighteous in the context of the Day of Judgment. It doesn’t get more morally relevant than that.

    Lot did deserve God’s wrath, but so do all men. This is a fundamental truth. However, Lot did the right thing in the context of Sodom. Dr. Corey’s premise that he was a horrible human is plainly contradicted by 2 Peter 2.

  • If they are discussing Sodom directly (2 Peter 2 and Jude) or working in a similar cultural framework (various works of Paul) and the Bible is authoritative and accurate, then those writings do establish some of the reasons why Sodom was destroyed.

    But this is beside my point. Both Franklin Graham and Dr. Corey are incorrect. The reason why Sodom was destroyed was their sin in its totality. It was not any specific sin in particular.* To understand what sin is, one has to consider the complete works of God. Thus the Torah and Paul are quite relevant.

    * A good argument can be made that homosexuality was one of the factors that led to Sodom’s destruction. It is not the only possible argument, but it’s a hard one to refute. Making that argument requires the discussions you think are irrelevant.

  • Nicely stated. I would go further and argue that the other popular places that fundamentalists go to find anti-gay arguments–Lev. 18 and 20 and Romans 1–are also off target.

  • Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave. I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” Gen. 18:21 These verses make it clear people were crying to God about these cities. There must have been many people raped, injured and probably killed if they were unfortunate enough to enter that city. Their friends and families must have been asking God for justice and safety. God destroyed those cities to protect the human race.

    God does not want to kill people, but he does it sometimes to protect us. “Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel.” Ezek. 33:11

    I find it interesting most Evangelicals condemn homosexuality in such a loud and ugly way, yet don’t condemn those who won’t help the poor. You don’t see them demonstrating in the streets about that sin. And that sin is the one God condemns most often in the Bible. Pride is a terrible sin, according to God. Let’s hear some yelling about that! But no, they choose what they see as a horrible sin and blot on the U.S., gay marriage, and worry God will punish the nation because we allow it! And here is the main thing – it hurts nobody! Nobody at all.

    If God punishes the U.S. it will be because in the richest nation in the world we allow people to die because they have no health insurance. We don’t care if someone can’t afford to buy his prescriptions. We have homeless people everywhere, in every city. We allow the rich to not pay taxes or keep their money overseas so they don’t have to help build roads, teach children or pay the police.

  • Bones

    Its a myth, not a historical story.

    So no god doesnt wipe out cities.

  • Bones

    Anyone who thinks Sodom has anything to do with homosexuality are dishonest ignorant buffoons.

    They can sod off..

  • Bones

    Why are you getting worked up about a story that didnt happen?

    Do you get upset about fairy tales as well?

    Of course theres the historical fact that the jews interpreted the story as having nothing to do with gay sex.

    You need to get over this hate you have for yourself.

  • Bones

    Just like jesus doesnt like nfl.

  • Bones

    Yep…ancient bronze and iron age tribal and priestly codes.

  • Bones

    Your subjective interpretations are not fundamental truths.

    Btw the bloke in judges 19 must’ve been a really righteous guy giving his concubine over to be raped and killed.

    The story is the mirror image of sodom and gomorrah.

    Thats how they wrote back then.

    And your loathing of humanity has been behind everything from genocide to psychosis.

  • Bones

    Well none of it happened so its all fantasy.

    So the libertarian is in favour of killing people over sex it seems.

  • Bones

    Lol…its CENSORSHIP.

    Now can we talk about killing gay people again.

  • Bones

    Well if Lot is righteous we all are.

    Offers his daughters to be raped.

    Gets drunk and impregnates his daughters.

    Anyone here better than that?

    Lol and no surprise the fundamentalist disregards the bible on immigration and refugees.

    God you’re pathetic and so is your right wing anti-Christ.

  • Bones

    Jesus is not ok with guacamole.

    I hate it. Dreadful stuff.

    Same with American sports.

    Jesus is not ok with them either.

    He hates it.

    So do i.

    Jesus is ok with rugby and cricket.

    I love them.

    See how it works?

  • Your subjective interpretations are not fundamental truths.

    “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”

    “There is none righteous, no, not one”

    “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

    The notion that humanity is fallen is fundamental to Christianity. But if you want to call people who deny this Christian, go for it.

  • Bones

    Amazing how context becomes important to excuse disgraceful behaviour eg offering women up to be raped but not when it comes to gay sex. Coz thats really bad.

    Maybe you shouldnt spend too much time thinking about gay sex.

    Btw matthew 10 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem which had happened in matthew’s time.

  • Bones

    Once again parroting bible verses proves nothing.

    You may as well parrot the koran.

    You’ve just made peoples opinions and interpretations as fact.

    Congratulations. Like that hasnt been done before.

    You need to get over your hatred of humanity and quit justifying it.

  • Bones

    Oh dear….trump’s your messiah – hey.

    What a massive hypocrite you are.

  • “Once again parroting bible verses proves nothing.”

    This is the most rational point you’ve made to me. I completely agree.

  • Bones

    So are you ready to admit your dishonesty?

  • Feel free to seriously engage any of my points in a rational, logical, good-faith discussion and I’ll respond in kind.

  • Bones

    None of it happened….so its all a stupid argument.

    Hey guys lets argue about what this story that didn’t happen says about gay people.

  • Bones

    Apparently god didn’t have a problem killing kids eg the fictional Canaanite conquest, the Exodus……

    Somewhere he changed his mind.

  • Bones

    I take it the gays in Judges 19 just went around raping women if they couldn’t find a man? Because like the whole thing describes normal homosexual behaviour. I regularly have gay people coming to rape guests at my house and suppose you think the gay posters here want to go to your house and rape you.

    “If you want to say that homosexual acts do not debase the recipient, the logical conclusion is to reject the Bible. No mental gymnastics are required.”

    Nah we’re rejecting your bigoted ignorant opinion.

    You shouldn’t equate your hatred of others with god

    Btw: Why are you so f***ed in the head?

    Is this what your religion has made you into?

  • Bones

    “Bible is authoritative and accurate”

    Dude, you need to go right back to this before we can have any discussion.

    Because that assumption is flat out bs.

    There was no divine destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah – just like there wasn’t a tower reaching heaven.

  • Bones

    Actually you’ve just shown that you’re the hysterical one here.

  • Bones

    But that gets explained away eg God regulates what he hates…….lol

  • Bones

    Really! I can say they’re wrong. It’s about educating yourself and finding facts and information.

    Now about these knowledgeable Christians

    Franklin Graham cheered the war in Iraq and believed Obama was a secret Muslim.

    Augustine proposed torturing heretics eg you and me.

    Chrysostom was a rabid anti-semite whose sermons led to the destruction of synagaogues.

    Were they wrong?

    Hopefully you’re a better HUMAN than they are.

  • Bones

    Augustine proposed torturing heretics
    Chrysostom was a rabid anti-semite

  • Bones

    I already have.

    Your problem is your assumption that the Bible is authoritative and accurate is based on a house of cards.

    It isn’t either of those.

    There’s your fallacy right there.

    And yes your attempt to disregard refugees is completely dishonest.

  • Jon-Michael Ivey

    The earliest source I have found which taught that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality was the Koran. It seems to have taken almost 500 years before Christians in the middle ages adopted this Islamic idea.

  • Jon-Michael Ivey

    Augustine failed his introductory Greek course and never bothered trying to learn Hebrew or Aramaic. He was very eloquent in Latin, but he never deserved anything close to the level of respect he has been given as a biblical authority. John Chrysostom was quite fluent and famously eloquent in Greek. I don’t know how good his Hebrew was, but I do know he was extremely anti-Semitic. (I believe he was among those who held that the Septuagint was the only divinely inspired version of the bible and that it was folly to even try to study the versions the Jews used before they were translated into the Greek; this ancient equivalent of the crazy KJV-only movement was quite common.) Franklin Graham’s association with Trump should be taken as prima facie evidence that his views are wrong, no matter how popular they are among the sort of people who have been duped into thinking Trump is a man of good character.

  • “Dude, you need to go right back to this before we can have any discussion. Because that assumption is flat out bs.”

    If you don’t accept the premises of my arguments, that’s perfectly fine. They weren’t intended for you.

  • Bones

    And we all know Jesus was a right wing conservative.

    That’s why the right wing conservatives killed him.

  • Bones

    Too bad, I’m here.

    And yeah the premise of your whole argument is a fallacy.

    So blurting out Bible verses just shows you don’t understand anything.

    So is it religion which has made you like you are?

  • Jon-Michael Ivey

    Why are you quibbling over the meaning of a Greek word in the book of Genesis? Wouldn’t the Hebrew term be far more relevant? I know many Christians of the Patristic era believed that the Septuagint was divinely inspired while the Hebrew texts from which it was translated were not, but that does not seem like it would be a popular view today.

  • While I love the Bible and have devoted much of my life to it, I don’t give a hoot what 2 Peter says about Lot.

    He offered to let people rape his kids.

    I’m really, really, really, okay with calling him a horrible human being. I don’t care who that puts me at odds with– because if such a person (or even deity) thinks you can be a great guy and also offer to hand your kids over to be gang raped, I’m not really interested in being in relationship with such a person or such a deity.

  • I never said they used rape to discourage homosexual behavior. I said that in these ancient cultures being on the receiving end of male/male sex was despised because of their low view of women, and that it was weaponized to strip people of their manhood. Rape has quite often– then and now– been used as a weapon, which is exactly what they did.

  • I appreciate your response. Thank you.

  • vmelkon

    Leviticus 18:22
    And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

    Leviticus 20:13
    If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

    1 Corinthians 6:9
    Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality.

    Romans 1:27 KING JAMES VERSION
    And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

  • vmelkon

    Yes. Yes, I see how it works.
    Also, I am happy to say that copy and paste works with Firefox.

  • Bones

    Just on Paul, it’s clear when you read Philo’s description of temple worship at the time that he was referring to pagan practices.

    Romans makes it clear in the preceding verses that it was about idolatry which was a big no-no. In fact the source of their homosexuality was because they ‘worshipped creatures’.

    Romans 1

    22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

    24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

    I take it girl-on-girl was ok in the old Testament.

    Given that they had 1 husband for the lot of them.

    But then it also says women on their period are unclean and they can spread that around just by touch.

    No one take any notice of that superstitious nonsense.

  • Bones

    Btw PO one of the most Christian people I’ve known was an atheist – Dr Fred Hollows.

    A far better Christian in his love for his neighbour and the poor than many Christians.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugGns_YNne8

  • Lev. 18 and 20 are ritual prohibitions. They’re arbitrary, like “don’t eat shellfish” or “don’t wear mixed fabrics.”

    Rom. 1:26-7: “God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.”

    This is talking about “natural” relations. Straight men and women doing gay sex? Yes, that’s pretty crazy. And, yet again, this has nothing to say about loving homosexual relationships.

  • Bones

    Btw the term sodomy was a made up Christian word to describe sex between monks……

    That’s how late the antigay interpretation came about,.

  • Bones

    Jesus likes Firefox then…..and hates Windows 10…..

  • Bones

    See also references in the Talmud

    “There were four judges in Sodom (ib. 109b), named respectively Shaḳḳarai (“liar”), Shaḳrarai (“habitual liar”), Zayyafa (“deceiver”), and Maẓle Dina (“perverter of the Law”). In Sodom every one who gave bread and water to the poor was condemned to death by fire (Yalḳ., Gen. 83). Two girls, one poor and the other rich, went to a well; and the former gave the latter her jug of water, receiving in return a vessel containing bread. When this became known, both were burned alive (ib.). In the Midrash (ib. 84) the judges are called Ḳaẓ Sheḳer (= “greatest liar”), Rab Sheḳer (= “master of lies”), Rab Nabal (= “master of turpitude “), Rab Masṭeh Din (= “chief perverter of the Law”), and Ḳelapandar (probably = “forger”). Pentapolis existed only fifty-two years; and during the last twenty-two of them God brought earthquakes and other misfortunes upon it that it might repent. It refused to do so, however, and was destroyed (ib. 83). The inhabitants of the cities of the plain worshiped the sun and the moon. If destruction had come upon them by day, they would have said that the moon would have helped them; if by night, they would have declared that the sun would have been their aid; wherefore they were destroyed early in the morning, when both the sun and the moon were shining. This happened on the sixteenth of Nisan.

    According to the “Sefer ha-Yashar,” a man entered Sodom riding on an ass, and as he had no lodging he was received by a resident of the place. On preparing to depart he missed his colored cover and the cord by which it had been tied to the animal’s back. When he asked his host about the matter, he received the answer that he had only dreamed of a cover, but that the vision was of good omen, since the cover meant that he would possess large vineyards, and the cord indicated that his life would be prolonged. The stranger protested; but he was dragged before the tribunal and sentenced to pay four silver shekels. The names of the judges, according to this account, were: Sarak in Sodom, Sarkar in Gomorrah, Zabuak in Admah, and Manon in Zeboiim (ib. 24-27). For the other stories related in the “Sefer ha-Yashar” see Eliezer and Lot.”

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13827-sodom

  • The citation was from 2 Peter.

  • Ron McPherson

    Jesus couldn’t get elected in the U.S. Conservative evangelicals would see to it. They couldn’t support his agenda. They don’t now anyway.

  • What text tells us Sodom was destroyed for their sin in its totality? This seems like a strange argument to make. “Sodom was destroyed for their oppression of strangers and also frequent profanity.”

  • An interesting parallel is Nineveh. God decides to destroy it for generic wickedness, but we never hear what that wickedness is until 3:8 –

    “All shall turn from their evil ways and from the violence that is in their hands.”

  • Read the ancient myths and then read the Bible. They are very different. C.S. Lewis was an expert on the myths. That is what he said to do.

  • I’m pretty sure Genesis 18 does not present Lot as a morally upright person, considering he offers for the crowd to rape his daughters, instead.

    You’re on stronger ground with 2 Peter 2, given that the larger passage is contrasting “godly” men with their persecutors. This may be the author of 2 Peter taking their cue from Enoch, as they do in other passages.

  • “What text tells us Sodom was destroyed for their sin in its totality?”

    How could Ezekiel know why Sodom was destroyed when 1200 years had passed? Instead of giving a single specific reason, he gave a list of reasons. Jude gave a different explanation.

    Abraham was told that the reason for their destruction was “sin”. Most other biblical and deuterocanonical references to Sodom refer to Sodom in the general sense. They are used as an example for the worst kind of rejection of God, for many/any/doesn’t-mater-which sins. They are used as a warning for cities like Jerusalem or Babylon, not because they committed the exact same infractions, but because they sinned.

    “This seems like a strange argument to make. “Sodom was destroyed for their oppression of strangers and also frequent profanity.””

    Not at all. Saying it was destroyed for profanity is like saying it was destroyed for homosexuality. It’s speculative and misses the point. If it was destroyed for sin, then the specific sins are secondary.

  • Herm

    vmelkon, I know because Jesus, the Christ of the “Christian” Bible, told me so. How can you intellectually know, since you are an avowed atheist, having no with and in relation with Christ? I will have to refer you to any version of that bible.

    Jesus’ quoted words only;

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:37-40

    Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

    Matthew 11:11-15

    Can you find anything in these statements, regarding the sum and all the law, attributed directly to Jesus speaking, that even implies that any physical reciprocally consensual adult intimacy, carnally sexual or otherwise, is against the law of eternal life?

    If you were to go over to Luke 10:25-37, Jesus states unequivocally that if you do only as stated in Matthew 11:11-15 (plus love Them with all your strength) that you will live eternally.

    God is made up of at least the Father, his son Jesus, and all Jesus’ sibling student children of Man/God. Each of God are with and in one another as one bound by all love because each are with and in the Spirit of truth (who appeared as a dove at Jesus’ baptism administered by John the Baptist). The heart, soul, mind (and strength in Luke) are spirit, not physical. God is only spirit governed under the law of relationship, not concerned with any physical act, but definitely concerned with the spirit of relationship. To the question of longevity of life in spirit, all law is relative to attitude.

    Not to worry about the unknown after your carnal body returns its elements to the earth, those not living with and in the Spirit will surely die physically and know nothing. Those with and in the Spirit today, recognized in living carnal bodies, have already begun eternity.

    One more text that highlights what changed most from the Old Testament to the New Testament as spoken to a good Samaritan woman:

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24

    All acceptable carnal worship of God has been over for nearly 2,000 years now. All carnal “sex” is the worship of our propagation of our animal species on earth.

    Now, vmelkon, know that, without the prequalification of any self ordained carnal religious order on this earth, by any name, you can address directly Jesus, his Father, his mother, his sisters, his brothers, and yes the Spirit of truth (who is with and in them all) to ask all your questions. If you are sincere your certain answer will come via your gifted image of God; your heart, your soul, your strength, your mind which is you as spirit.

    Love you and thank you for asking!

  • “I’m pretty sure Genesis 18 does not present Lot as a morally upright person, considering he offers for the crowd to rape his daughters, instead.”

    This does appear to be the most common explanation. I’ve seen a few others that paint Lot in a more positive light. The main issue is how can a man who offers his daughters for rape be considered righteous? This seems pretty contradictory.

  • I have to admit, Derek, you’re kind of a hard person to figure out. On the one hand, you argue the accuracy of 2 Peter’s assessment of Lot on the grounds of the inspiration and accuracy of Scripture, and on the other hand, you argue that Ezekiel couldn’t have known why Sodom was destroyed and just pointed out some things that were probably under the umbrella of general sin while Jude gave different reasons.

    But in any case, I hear what you’re saying, but I find it very unlikely that Sodom can be used as a warning to Babylon and Jerusalem because of sin in general. Sodom sinned a lot and you guys sin a lot, therefore watch out.

    The reason Isaiah prophesies an overthrow of Babylon in 13 isn’t because Babylon is generically sinful and, once your city hits a certain sin level, God destroys it – but because they’re an oppressor of Israel. This is why 14 follows with promises of the restoration of Israel as well as an extended discourse against the arrogance of the king of Babylon. Note the refusal to allow exiles to return in v. 17.

    I’m with you in that oppression is not the only sin mentioned of Babylon ever, or even in these passages (14:20 mentions that the king of Babylon kills his own people – also a common feature of the prophetic indictment against Israel), but Babylon is not being overthrown for generic sin. Their role as an oppressor of God’s people from whom the people need deliverance (which, btw, is how 2 Peter casts the Lot story) is why God will overthrow them. Likewise, the sequence of oracles against Philistia, Assyria, Moab, etc. None of them are about high levels of general sin – they are because these nations are arrogant oppressors of Israel.

    When the crosshairs turn back to Israel itself, this is a consistent feature of the prophetic indictment – that the power structure of Israel herself has become oppressive toward her own people. Since we’re dealing with the scope of the first book of Isaiah, just read chapter 1.

    Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
    remove the evil of your doings
    from before my eyes;
    cease to do evil,
    learn to do good;
    seek justice,
    rescue the oppressed,
    defend the orphan,
    plead for the widow.

    While it’s easy to note there were other sins going on in Israel besides injustice, this is easily the spearhead of the prophetic case against Israel for breaking covenant -as well as- the indictments Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet brings against Israel’s leadership as well.

  • vmelkon

    Bob,
    whether you want to classify it into different boxes; “this is arbitrary, therefore I don’t need to obey it” or “this is not arbitrary, I will obey it”, is up to you.
    There are all sorts of christians with all sorts of interpretations.
    That’s what happens when the original leader dies. Other leaders popup with their own rules.

    Romans 1:27. It does not say that the men are straight or the women are straight. That is your interpretation. I could just as well say that they are all bisexuals.

    You are right that it does not say anything about homosexual relationships. I doubt that there were homosexual couples back then, getting married and living together (in jewish culture). The only thing that they could do is meet up for sex and so, that is something that was somehow noticed by the jewish culture and the priest leaders wanted to ban it by invoking the jewish god.

  • Your problem is your assumption that the Bible is authoritative and accurate is based on a house of cards.

    The target of Dr. Corey’s criticism is the evangelical who believes that the Bible is authoritative and accurate. The purpose behind my arugments is that if this is premise is held, then Dr. Corey’s position has a number of logical problems. The logical consequence is that Dr. Corey is attempting to get evangelicals to abandon the notion that the Bible is authoritative and accurate.

  • Bones

    No they arent.

    They are the same.

    In fact the bible is based on other legends.

  • Herm

    Derek, “The notion that humanity is fallen is fundamental to Christianity” maybe to “christianity” but not to students of Christ.

    Exactly what did mankind fall from? If mankind had once known, as a whole species, all that God knew then I would agree that mankind fell into ignorance. If mankind began with ignorance, as all children do, what did they fall from?

    Perhaps, “fundamental” “Christianity” has the notion that mankind fell from the love of God’s grace. I believe they still believe God so loved the world …

    There is only one word that should have been fundamental to all of Christianity, and is not. Jesus teaches to all his students daily that there is only one Father, one Teacher and one Instructor (the Messiah).

    Your subjective interpretations are not fundamental truths.” Who is your teacher?

  • Bones

    Your position has a zillion logical problems.

    I’d be looking at yourself first.

    And the bible is neither authoritative nor accurate which from your posts here you only use parts of anyway.

  • vmelkon

    God gave them over in the lusts? What happened to the notion of free will?
    The same kind of problem appears in the case of the nameless Pharaoh vs Moses. It says the jewish god hardened the nameless Pharaoh’s heart.

    Yes, it sounds like whoever wrote Romans (Paul?) seems to be talking about idolatry. However, he writes in a convoluted way. If I was the writer, I would have written “Those guys are building statues of their gods. That is bad. Those gods aren’t real. The real god (the jewish god) does not want statues.”
    That is crystal clear. A lot of the Bible is repetitive and convoluted and puffed up.

    Yes, if you read Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13, it sounds like they are against male homosexuality but are ok with lesbians.

    First off, they are assuming the reader is a male.
    “And you (THE MALE READER) must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”

    So, the 20th century came along and now you have female readers and female priests. Those cavemen from 2000 years ago were not planning on that.

    However, they did write:
    I Timothy 2:11-14
    Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    I Corinthians 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    I Corinthians 14:34-35
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    Timothy 2:12
    I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.

    Genesis 3:16 or the lines after
    Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.
    ==============================
    However, the problem is that earlier in the bible, you have prophets like Deborah, which are women.

  • Bones

    CS Lewis agrees with me….

    “The universally admitted unhistoricity (I do not say, of course, falsity) of at least some narratives in scripture (the parables), which may well extend also to Jonah and Job.” ”
    And
    “The earliest stratum of the Old Testament contains many truths in a form which I take to be legendary, or even mythical — hanging in the clouds, but gradually the truth condenses, becomes more and more historical. From things like Noah’s ark or the sun standing still upon Ajalon, you come down to the court memoirs of King David. Finally you reach the new Testament and history reigns supreme, and the Truth is incarnate.”

    (From Is Theology Poetry?

    And

    “I have therefore no difficulty in accepting, say, the view of those scholars who tell us that the account of Creation in Genesis is derived from earlier Semitic stories which were Pagan and mythical.”

  • Bones

    Yeah god changed his mind in there somewhere.

    Whats even more weird is that if Romans 1 is about being gay, Paul then says in 2:1

    “Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.”

    Passing judgement is like anal sex?

    Or more likely thats the culture those people lived in.

    Extremely patriarchal.

    So of course their writings are extremely patriarchal

    Oh and those letters were peoples opinions. I think the writers would be astounded to think they were written for the 21st century.

  • Herm

    Okay Josh, who is your teacher?

    What do you teach your children?

    Is “sex”, the practice and worship of all animal propagation of the species (or the species will surely die), repugnant to you and/or God (who is spirit)?

    How long did it take before mankind was bestowed the image of God?

    How old is God?

    Are children of God, sibling students of Christ, still children of Man?

    Is God truly simply a male gender individual that each male and female of mankind must appease or forever suffer His wrath?

    … or is God the Father (meaning parent figure not a gender), His son the Christ, and all children of God, including all children of Man now with and in the Spirit of truth as their one, and only, Teacher?

    … and you accuse me of being hysterical?

    The conversation is about how do you know you are a sufficient judge to know what your child should or should not be taught.

    The conversation is about how do you teach your children to discern truth from lies that will be all around them when no longer under your tutelage.

    The conversation is about how do you discern truth in order to be the certain best judge of what your children should or should not learn?

    How much do you know of what there is yet to know until the end of eternity?

    You’ve called me names in an effort to intimidate and manipulate me to be less disgraceful and less blasphemous to what you believe you know, just as did Caiaphas to Jesus.

    Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” But Jesus remained silent.

    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Matthew 26:62-68

    But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

    “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor.

    “Barabbas,” they answered.

    “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

    They all answered, “Crucify him!”

    “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

    When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

    Matthew 27:20-24

    Are you persuaded by “chief priests and the elders” who intimidate and manipulate you to their judgments or by the Teacher? Wouldn’t you be more sure that your children will live eternally if you simply taught them to see and accept the Spirit of truth as their only Teacher? Wouldn’t they be more sure to discern truth from falsehood in their “sex ed” classes, and all lessons offered on this earth, if they were continually with and in to be taught by the Spirit of truth?

  • whether you want to classify it into different boxes are “this is arbitrary, therefore I don’t need to obey it” or “this is not arbitrary, I will obey it”, is up to you.

    It’s not so much that it’s arbitrary as that it’s not harmful. Murder is bad, not just because it annoys God but because it is objectively harmful. Not so eating pork, wearing mixed fabrics, or homosexual sex.

    And early Christians seem to have nicely bypassed the need for sacrifices and kosher rules. Whatever reason they conjured up should work for the remaining ritual demans.

    Romans 1:27. It does not say that the men are straight or the women are straight. That is your interpretation. I could just as well say that they are all bisexuals.

    It said “unnatural.” It would be unnatural for a straight man to have homosexual sex. So we’re clearly not talking about homosexuals.

    I doubt that their were homosexual couples back then, getting married and living together (in jewish culture).

    Then it makes all the more ridiculous citing the OT for rules about loving homosexual relationships if the OT never talks about them.

  • W.L. Craig and your so-called third alternative is simply the first horn of the dilemma dressed-up in fancy clothes. When you poke it lightly with logic, circular arguments about the goodness of God readily pop out.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    The Lot story seems to me to be yet another variation on the theme of the righteous remnant being delivered from the destruction wrought on the sinful city / country / world. Lot is “righteous” for these purposes because he doesn’t share the sin for which Sodom faces destruction. Sodom’s abuse of the strangers in their midst is contrasted by Lot’s taking hospitality to an insane extreme.
    That Lot on being rescued immediately falls into sin himself is par for the course (cf Noah getting drunk likewise).
    I am not BTW entirely convinced that Lot is really in fact offering up his daughters to the crowd in the Genesis passage. I know a little Hebrew and I think Lot may be understood as saying that he would rather hand over his virgin daughters to the crowd to do with what they will than let the crowd harm his guests, without in fact any real intention of doing either. Certainly the crowd do not understand this as a serious offer to be considered, but tell Lot as a stranger he has no business telling them what to do and try and break into his house.

  • He can be considered righteous in the Sodom situation because, as you pointed out, he’s in the right in the Sodom situation. In the 2 Peter passage, the other similar example is Noah, who is vindicated against everyone else around him, also by way of God destroying them, but saving him.

    In the Sodom story, we see Lot is justified by virtue of God saving him and destroying everyone else, but whether or not Lot was generally more moral than everyone else isn’t really clear.

  • Thanks, Iain. I think that’s insightful about the narrative purpose, and that certainly seems to be the take 2 Peter has on it.

    Not sure about the Hebrew. It’s been a while since I learned my Hebrew and I’m not a Hebrew scholar. I’d be interested to read arguments to the contrary, but the use of the “na” sort of puts that urgent timestamp on it, and I -believe- everywhere “owsiah” is a root, it refers to something that actually happened, but then again, most appearances of it are in past tense, and even if it did mean that most places, that doesn’t mean it can’t mean something else, here.

    I’m definitely not an authority on that and any actual Hebrew scholar would probably wipe the floor with those reasons.

  • Kathy Ruth

    Franklin Graham isn’t a Christian at all! There is NOTHING about the way he lives that suggests he follows the teachings of Jesus.

  • Ron McPherson

    Wrong Bones. The citizens couldn’t think of a name for this ancient city. So one day somebody came up with the name Sodom. Why? Because the citizens were all gay “ sodomizers” and so they named the city Sodom (short for sodomy). And so obviously the story is about homosexuality then, otherwise the city wouldn’t be named Sodom. Sodom = Sodomy = homosexuality. Duh. Geez, you liberals are so ignorant.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Apart from making the whole scene less weird (and to be honest this is the main one) my reason for thinking this is that “I will bring them” is in the cohortative, and it seems dependent on the following phrase, making the whole thing structured as a conditional sentence, effectively: “I have daughters, but I would let you have them if you did not touch these men.” and in conditional sentences (according to my grammar book) the cohortative refers to what one would do hypothetically, rather than actually will do.
    But hey, my Hebrew is likewise dodgy, so I could be wrong.

  • Herm

    Josh, who is your teacher?
    How do you discern truth in order to be the certain best judge of what your children should or should not learn?
    How do you teach your children to discern truth from lies that will be all around them when no longer under your tutelage?
    Do you know for certain that all you believe is the absolute truth to teach your children?
    Most importantly, how do you teach your children to discern truth from lies that will be all around them when no longer under your tutelage, and even lurking within the unintended ignorance of your teaching?

    It seems like your insistence to be the sole teacher of your children makes you your children’s totalitarian government.

    Let’s make something absolutely clear, there is a good chance the species mankind will still be alive 1,000 years from now while neither you nor your children will be. The constructive and productive quality of mankind will have been determined how many past members were working for the whole constructively and how many destructively rebelled against the whole, not unlike a cancer all too possible in each of our individual bodies (members of a body who kill their host body sincerely trying to do what they believe is more right). Are you choosing to be a cancer to mankind?

    If you feed your kids addictive drugs then you impair the health of the body of mankind, then having less chance of surviving 1,000 years longer.

    If you train your kids to do, without any empathetic discernment, harm to others before others do harm to them, then the entire (over 7 billion members today) body of mankind has less chance of surviving 1,000 years longer.

    Without continually checked, balanced and supported public education social skills first are lost, parochial schools (only one of which can be closest to the truth) fragment to increasingly segregate the united body of Man (determined by and subject to persuasive “chief priests and the elders“), and no longer is there a mechanism within the body of Man to weigh different thoughts of physical, social and spiritual sciences in order to teach the most truth we know as a whole body of Man to our children. You, as an active opponent to honest and open public schools, rather than making certain they are teaching to the best of their ability that mankind will survive, are a proponent to all of mankind committing suicide by fragmentation of the whole.

    Josh, until a year and a half ago the USA was no where near a totalitarian government, especially in their public schools. The USA worked best when the most of the nation participated to share their differences. Evangelicals are a totalitarian body with no room for others. God didn’t ever chime in on abortion, homosexuality, mankind was made on the sixth day, and that They are only willing to teach appeasing christians the truth. God fully intends on learning and progressing further ahead until the end of eternity, unlike the species mankind. God isn’t calling Their people back but is calling, with and in the Holy Spirit, Their people to join Them going forward.

    I know who my one Teacher is, and he is the same Teacher for my adult children (which is not me or their mother, for we know how little we know of what there is yet to know or even what is known by God, of no beginning, from the past). All I taught my children was how to grow and learn with discernment, how in everything do to all others as they would have all others do to them, that nothing is free while they could never earn the grace they have received, that life is an opportunity supported by God and the body of mankind, that we rest and recreate to be able to work and not work in order to rest and recreate, and most importantly this mortal life is temporary and needs to be invested in and shared with all who are willing productively and constructively today. All of my responsible parenting skills were notated that, though at first I knew more than my children how to survive, I did not know everything and would make mistakes. This was particularly highlighted when I claimed my imperfect childhood of God relying on Their loving and knowing counsel to make better, more survivable, decisions for me, my children and my species of Man.

    So, what do you know and from what teacher?

  • Bones

    Yeah and the city grew because the gays all had children……

  • Bones

    Yeah that reading doesnt wash especially when you compare the Judges 19 account.

  • Bones

    And you are.

  • Bones

    I’d say killing them is talking about them.

  • Bones

    A broken clock is right twice a day.

  • Herm

    Do you comprehend the use of disclaimers, like “it seems”? It is not a lie for me to share with you what “it seems” like to me. You have made it clear that you believe yourself to be capable of being the sole decider just what your children learn. If not, who taught you such certainty? If you are allowing others to teach your children, what you may not know to teach, what are their credentials that allow them to share greater truth than in public school? Who is your teacher? How do you discern truth from untruth?

  • Herm

    Who is your teacher?

  • Ron McPherson

    And Lot tries to appease all the gay men by offering them hetero sex with his daughters

  • charles morgan

    Did you make this shit up or did that faux historian david barton tell you this?

  • charles morgan

    And God said unto them, Franklin you dumb ass, you have pissed me off. I shall smite you with my dildo

  • Bones

    Well now you put it like that, it makes more sense…..

  • Bones

    ‘Truth’ – lol.

    From the guy who posts propaganda.

    How ironic indeed.

    I feel sorry for your children that they will be inflicted with such a hideous self centred worldview.

  • Bones

    And you’re not interested in learning anything but being a right wing sound byte.

  • Ron McPherson

    Sarcasm

  • Matthew

    They were not deleted. My bad. This comment can be deleted however :-)

    [Edited]

  • Herm

    Your bigotry is showing. All that you have expressed is your hate for “public” schools through your intolerance for others and an inability to socialize with difference. You propose fragmenting, isolating, dividing and segregating the entire mass of humanity in ways that benefit the privileged and strand the underprivileged. You fear honest, scientifically correct and open teaching of the diversity, options and dangers of sexuality to prepare your adolescence children (primed and ready to breed the species) in public school that must certainly disagree with your familial traditions rife with evolving mythological support. You support private, (mostly parochial and governed by persuasive and exclusive chief priests and the elders), and/or, even worse breeding grounds for bigotry, home schooling of accredited subjects, sans complete preparatory sex ed to prepare your children for the real world.

    The government of the “United” States of America is a democratic republic dependent upon being actively of all the people, by all the people, and for all the people growing and learning together. The only reason our public schools fail is because all the people do not govern them together, for the good of the entire nation and all its people (its most important resource).

    There is no place where children, in their most formative years, can possibly learn more positive, constructive and tolerant public relations than in public schools with the nightly respite of a loving, progressive and tolerant home life as an example. No parent should ever want their children to have less truth in their arsenal of social strengths dependent only on what they, the parents, know.

    I hurt for you and your children because of your attitude of exclusivity.

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:8-12

    You exclusively exalt you and yours in order not to face the real enemy of truth, selective ignorance founded on a dependence upon tradition; familial, religious and tribal. Sure public school is tough and is fraught with danger but we get only stronger from stress that we learned to survive by facing truth. Ignorance is seemingly bliss until you are forced to realize that you don’t know what hit you and yours because you didn’t see it coming. You cannot keep your children in a sterile bubble of ignorance and expect them to live most safely in this wonderfully big and diverse world of opportunity without you (in reality, even with you).

    Josh, you are one of the government that you try so hard to isolate yourself ,and yours, from. Who taught and/or teaches you that all public of mankind inclusively learning together is more dangerous to the health of you and yours than learning in very small exclusive circles separated from the vast amount of public diversity? It certainly isn’t God as taught by the Teacher.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    The Judges 19 account if anything supports my reading. The whole Judges passage is a parody of the Lot account, and various other incidents, and almost every incident in it has people doing stupid things without thought, as the book keeps saying because “there was no king in Israel”.
    The householder tries to be like Lot, but messes up: Lot shuts the door behind him, he doesn’t. He tries to give Lot’s speech on how he will defend his guest but, ludicrously, ends up actually offering the crowd the concubine, one of the guests he is supposed to be protecting. The grammar is also subtly different: Lot says he has daughters, this man says directly to the crowd “Here is my daughter, and his concubine” and where Lot’s sentence is structured as “I would give them, if only you would not etc …” the man’s is subtly different: he says “I will willingly give, that you do not…” The passage in Judges says the crowd wouldn’t listen to the man (which suggests they are not acting as he meant it to happen) and pile through the door he has left open to take his guest’s concubine as he has, in fact, offered to give them.
    The remainder of the story continues the theme of ill-thought-out idiocy, with the man telling his dead concubine to get up and go, the grotesque parody of cutting up the woman instead of a sacrificial bull to summon the tribes and the ill-considered vow not to give wives to the Benjaminites and the rigmarole that follows.
    The point, I think, is that the man consciously tries to imitate what is Lot’s heroic, hyperbolic refusal to give up his guests and messes it up completely, ending up actually handing one over to the crowd.

  • vmelkon

    Earlier, you had said that Lev. 18 and 20 are arbitrary rules and so is “don’t eat shellfish” or “don’t wear mixed fabrics.”. Are you saying that they are not objectively harmful?

    “And early Christians seem to have nicely bypassed the need for sacrifices and kosher rules. Whatever reason they conjured up should work for the remaining ritual demans.”

    ==Why are they bypassing god’s rules?

    “It said “unnatural.” It would be unnatural for a straight man to have homosexual sex. So we’re clearly not talking about homosexuals.”

    ==Perhaps homosexuality and bisexuality was considered unnatural (against the jewish god’s plan). Is this a possibility or not?
    After all, doesn’t 1 Corinthians 6:9 say that homosexuality is bad? 1 Corinthians 6:9 fits in with Lev. 18 and 20.

    “Then it makes all the more ridiculous citing the OT for rules about loving homosexual relationships if the OT never talks about them.”

    ==I think that you misunderstood. I imagine that if a couple of homos were to shack up and claim that they are having a loving a relationship, chances are, the priest leader would refer to god’s law Lev. 18 and 20 and would have them stoned to death.
    What do you think? Does what I imagine make sense or would the priest leader and the rest of the jewish people be ok with these 2 guys.

    In fact, why doesn’t the OT say that homosexual relationship is ok? Why doesn’t the NT say that it is ok? Did they run out of space on their papers?

  • Bones

    That’s a complete nonsensical reading of Judges 19.

    If they ignored the man and just ent into his house – why didn’t they just take his guests.

    Dishonestly trying to make the text say something else because it is embarrassing is no better than the fundies.

    It’s clear what the text says in BOTH instances and that is that women were offered to be raped.

  • Show me where the Bible talks about loving homosexual relationships. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t.

  • Earlier, you had said that Lev. 18 and 20 are arbitrary rules and so is “don’t eat shellfish” or “don’t wear mixed fabrics.”. Are you saying that they are not objectively harmful?

    Of course. You disagree?

    “It said “unnatural.” It would be unnatural for a straight man to have homosexual sex. So we’re clearly not talking about homosexuals.”
    ==Perhaps homosexuality and bisexuality was considered unnatural (against the jewish god’s plan). Is this a possibility or not?

    You’re changing the subject.

    After all, doesn’t 1 Corinthians 6:9 say that homosexuality is bad?

    Nope.

    ==I think that you misunderstood. I imagine that if a couple of homos were to shack up and claim that they are having a loving a relationship, chances are, the priest leader would refer to god’s law Lev. 18 and 20 and would have them stoned to death.

    For a ritual violation. Are you not following the conversation? Leviticus is talking about ritual sins, not actual wrongdoing. Wearing mixed fabrics is not morally wrong, and Lev. Puts homosexuality in the same bin.

  • Matthew

    Well … only a sheep that follows his Shepherd :-)

    Nobody is perfect, Eva. All fall short of the glory of God.

    That said, everything good and true also comes from God.

    Maybe in life we all need to be like sand sifters in the way we deal with one another … letting what falls short simply fall through while holding onto any diamonds or gold that are found along the way.

    Thanks for the nice comment, Eva. If you don´t mind me asking … what was the best book you have read so far this year?

    [Edited]

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much Eva :-)

  • I stand corrected. Sorry about that. What I remember reading was he said myths have a certain flavor that the Bible does not have. I havn’t read this quote about the creation story. My sister believes the same thing. That’s fine, I don’t think our relationship with God hinges on whether we believe the stories in Genesis are factual.

  • vmelkon

    “I know because Jesus, the Christ of the “Christian” Bible, told me so”

    ==How did he tell you and when did he tell you? Can you give me a date, perhaps just the year?

  • Herm

    Somehow, I think you are being sardonic, are you?

    I will try to explain how your physical logic does not apply in spirit. God, who I know with and in me, at all times, without ceasing, without end, is a plurality of hearts, souls, strengths, minds of spirit (the image of God graced Man) bound as one, each with and in each other bound in all empathetic, compassionate, tolerant and forgiving love of each other within one perfectly clear Spirit of truth. Jesus, the Christ of the “Christian” Bible, is with, in and of God. I am a child with, in and of God. Jesus is in me, and i in him, as I write this to you.

    All of God need not speak in carnal form, or language, to be perfectly understood by all of God. I once was like you, an image of God. Today, I am one with and in all of God at once and forever. This is what the Christ is speaking about in:

    You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:22-24

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

    John 15:26

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    To understand completely the difference between unity in the carnal and unity in the Spirit you have to have related to both. I sense, by how you pose your questions, that you may know neither unity, and certainly not unity in spirit. Is this true?

  • And then there’s Er (the person, not the interjection), of whom we never learn anything more than “Er was wicked in the eyes of the Lord, so the Lord killed him.”

  • You know what those examples of injustice remind me of?

    Laws forbidding feeding the homeless.

  • “God repented of the evil he had sought to do.”

  • Ahh, the ceremonial/dietary/moral classification system, another invention of Christians in the centuries after the writing of the books…

  • Ah, so the dietary laws weren’t ritual purity laws. I didn’t know that. Please expand on this.

  • What is there to expand on? There is no consistency in what still applies and what doesn’t because the concept was invented in the intervening centuries since it was written. Judaism does not recognize any classification system whatsoever with regards to Torah Law. It is wholly a Christian conceit. Some of it is supported by text (Peter’s vision in Acts 10), but much of it is simply handwaved away as inapplicable to Christians EXCEPT THIS PART and this was fulfilled by Jesus BUT STILL NONE OF THIS and this was for cleanliness so soap and water fixes that BUT GOD PUNISHES THE UNCLEAN WITH PLAGUES and so on and so forth.

  • Lark62

    Read the ancient myths for yourself, then read the bible.

    The bible isn’t just myth, it’s bad myth.

    The fact that CS Lewis can justify his belief with fancy words doesn’t make him correct.

  • There’s a bit of suggestive language in 1&2 Samuel regarding David and Jonathan, but probably more clearly there is the story of the healing of the Centurion’s Servant in Matthew and Luke, which suggests strongly that the Centurion and his “servant” were actually lovers and Jesus didn’t care at all.

    Thin reeds to rest a case upon, for sure, but there is a bit here and there to work with.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Corey is at least partially correct, it wasn’t JUST that issue. And the longer I read this blog the more I am amazed at the arrogance and down right rudeness of many of its readers.

  • Happy the Fishy

    This is not a logical situation by any standard today, rather an abuse that may simply be beyond what you can accept as reality. (Did you read the link in my last post?) What they attempted that night is a form of physical and mental torture, a ritual performed by the every man in the town. Sex is core to who and what we are and using sex to torture a human (pretty sure no one used lube) by fucking them in the ass has only survived our modern time in our prisons and cursing.

  • Good examples. Unfortunately for those who like to cite Genesis, Leviticus, and Romans, these examples are not of the fire ‘n brimstone variety.

  • Realist1234

    I do not see how you can simply dismiss Leviticus 18 as ‘ritual’. It isnt. It’s primarily a list of sexual behaviours which God finds unacceptable. If you read the next chapter, most of that also has nothing to do with ‘rituals’ – do not lie, do not steal etc. Most of those still apply today, especially if reiterated in the NT.

    Ive found this twisting of Scripture before in discussions. Some would call it attempting to deceive – you know, one of those items prohibited in Lev 19.

  • Twisting of scripture? I think that concern goes both ways.

    Read Lev. 18-20 and see how many of things are sinful “just because” rather than because they’re objectively harmful.

  • Matthew

    I too agree with the power and influence of HaSatan (the Satan) as well as those of dark powers and principalities. I suppose that is why we must always be discerning, testing the spirits.

    The problem … well … is that age old question that Pilate asked — “What is truth?” I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, and the truth, and the life and everything that is right and true abides in him.

    That said, Franklin Graham (I´m rather confident) believes this too, yet he and I are so divided on so many issues. The same goes for those with whom I do not share my faith. While they do not see Jesus Christ in the same light that I do, not everything they say is wrong (or influenced by HaSatan). That is why I need to be the sand sifter so to speak while also being aware of the caution you offer up.

    A real balancing act Eva!

  • Realist1234

    You claimed – ‘Lev. 18 and 20 are ritual prohibitions’ and ‘Leviticus is talking about ritual sins, not actual wrongdoing.’

    – since when were stealing or lying ‘ritual’ sins?

    Jesus seemed to view them as wrongdoing.

  • Realist1234

    Re David and Jonathan, have you never heard of or experienced a close male friendship, without sexual connotations? Many men have. In those books, Jonathan is described as ‘loving David as he loved himself’. Does that remind you of someone else’s words – ‘love your neighbour as you love yourself’? If only we did.

    As for the Centurion’s servant, there is no evidence they were in some sort of sexual relationship. The Centurion was apparently well-known by the Jewish religious leaders as he had asked a group of them to ask Jesus to heal his servant. That is unusual – a Roman soldier seemingly being a God-fearer and an admirer of Judaism, to the extent he gave money for the building of a Jewish synagogue. It is unlikely he would have had such a positive relationship with them and Judaism knowing their condemnation of male/male sex, if indeed he was in such a relationship with his servant.

    Some have tried to imply that the use of the word ‘παῖς’ (“pais”) for the servant means something sexual in nature, namely pederasty. Patent nonsense. Pais is used in numerous places in the Gospels, where clearly no sexual connotations are implied – The children slaughtered by Herod who are under the age of 2 in Matthew 2, children in the temple in Matthew 21, God’s servants Israel and David in Luke 1, the girl Jesus heals in Luke 8, the boy out of whom Jesus casts a demon in Luke 9, the servants of the Good Father in the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15 etc.

    ‘Thin reeds’? More like empty space.

  • Realist1234

    Nonsense examples.

  • Realist1234

    Not specifically on this. I found David Lamb’s book ‘God behaving badly’ quite informative on OT understanding.

  • Realist1234

    Show me where the Bible is even slightly positive about same-sex sex?

  • Realist1234

    Good points. Though it isnt just evangelicals who could do more for the poor in our countries, and elsewhere.

  • Realist1234

    Indeed.

  • You seem very exercised about this.

    Like I said, it’s thin at best–I don’t know enough Koine Greek to judge for myself the implications of the word choice–and as an atheist I really don’t care what the orthodox opinion is about the proper interpretation of the text from a theological perspective. It just seems to me that if a person commits themselves to using a human life instruction manual published several centuries ago–in a time with little reliable knowledge about human biology, sexuality, etc.–that they would choose to read it today in light of what we know now that we didn’t then. To not do so is prideful and foolish and not a little childish, reflecting an adolescent desire for simple, clear answers all to be found in one convenient source.

    And if you really care enough to hold firm the line that the Bible is at best silent and at worst utterly monstrous on the topic of human sexuality, and yet still believe, perhaps you might want to examine just why you care about those textual instructions much more loudly and publicly than all the other ones. I mean, when’s the last time you went on a rant about divorce, or usury, or violent oppression?

  • Unlike public educated school children, none of my kids have committed suicide.

    If there was ever any rend of doubt whether you truly were a disgusting piece of garbage in the rough shape of a human being, that comment sure sews it up.

  • Bones

    Well it is important if you’re going to judge others by them and have them inform your beliefs eg gay people in the Sodom story and even the Fall.

  • I don’t care how “couth” you make a comment regarding being flippant about suicide. It marks you–your thoughts, your moral sense, and your personality–as a pile of vaguely metabolic fetid rotting garbage. Oh, would you like to be regarded as a refuse pile that has been recently sprayed with febreeze? Sorry, not fooling anyone.

  • Bones

    “demagoguery”

    Lol…josh learnt a new word.

  • Bones

    “Unlike public educated school children, none of my kids have committed suicide”

    Yet!

    None of mine have either…..

    Someone’s gonna be in for a shock when their children meet the world.

  • Realist1234

    ‘in a time with little reliable knowledge about human biology, sexuality, etc.–that they would choose to read it today in light of what we know now that we didn’t then. ‘

    – what exactly do we know now that they didnt then? If you mean for example the possible causes of same sex attraction, that has little bearing on whether the practice is right or wrong.

    ‘I mean, when’s the last time you went on a rant about divorce, or usury, or violent oppression?’

    – I was responding to the topic of this blog post. That’s what people tend to do on blogs.

  • Realist1234

    Perhaps righteous in the sense that all those following and forgiven by God are deemed righteous, despite their sins? I think Lot’s ‘righteousness’ is linked to Abraham, whose righteousness was credited to him due to his belief and obeying God. Given 2 Peter was written after Jesus, that may have been Peter’s thinking, in line with Paul’s. And Abraham was prepared to kill his own son, and yet it is clear God viewed him as ‘righteous’.

    Also I wonder if once Lot realised he was actually entertaining angels, in his panic he thought his offer was the lesser of 2 evils?

    In the end, God stepped in and ended the situation, just as He did with Abraham.

    Just some thoughts.

  • You don’t care about other people’s kids. You’ve made that crystal clear. You care about the frisson of moral superiority when you see bad things happen to other people and decide to blame the victim.

    You are nauseating.

  • what exactly do we know now that they didnt then?

    That sexual orientation is predominantly inborn and that sexuality evinces more diversity than the grammatical categories of antiquity had names for.

    that has little bearing on whether the practice is right or wrong.

    Even if one were to grant that the text is God-inspired, unless you think the preconceptions and biases of the penholders had no effect whatsoever on how the text was understood then obviously a change in how those preconceptions are formed will change the moral understanding of related sexual practices.

    I was responding to the topic of this blog post. That’s what people tend to do on blogs.

    I wasn’t talking about here, now. I’ve seen you around on other threads and in other Patheos sites. So, the question stands. I’m willing to bet even odds the honest answer is “never”, the other 50% is that you do it, but only fitfully and with remarkable convenience for your other prejudices. I mean, feel free to post a link to any rant you may have posted demonstrating your prior, deep, non-cynical concern regarding divorcees, predatory lending practices, or state violence. I won’t hold my breath, but I will flip a coin.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Unlike public educated school children, none of my kids have committed suicide”

    I would be scared sh*tless to make such a comment

  • You are damn straight I want to be morally superior

    But unfortunately both for you and for all people unfortunate to be around you, you have merely figured out how to feel morally superior, while you actually just flail about in empty moralism. So you can chalk up a disgusting quip about child suicide to impoliteness while failing utterly, pretty much always, to recognize the dignity in anyone not exactly like yourself or who made slightly different choices than you did or find themselves in different circumstances than you can comprehend. Moral myopia is too kind and clinical a term, but it gets the job done with some alliteration to boot.

    because I understand my economics go further than my intentions

    I’ve seen your “understanding” of economics when you stalked me over at FA; it is simply laughable, in that not only was it riddled with errors so fundamental that the questions you asked and the points you made ventured into not-even-wrong territory, but you crowed about an imaginary victory you somehow perceived while being literally laughed out of the room by the rest of the people present.

    I mean, really. It was quite the performance. For an angsty teenager. Hint: When a person feels the need to declare victory–especially right before they flee–they usually aren’t the victor.

    I propose an easy solution

    Ah yes, a believer in easy solutions. No wonder you are ignorant about damn near everything you jaw about.

  • Ron McPherson
  • Since when are mixed fabrics and eating shrimp objectively wrong?

  • If you want to actually engage with the issue, I’ve written a summary of my views at my blog here:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2016/09/does-the-bible-reveal-objective-truth-about-homosexuality/

  • Show me where the Bible is strongly negative about slavery.

    You seem to shrug that off pretty easily. Why then be bound by what an ancient book says about relationships that may not have even existed back then?

  • Matthew

    Here is an example, but there is more. Just do a search on Ben´s blog for “What Franklin Graham is Wrong About Today”:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/franklin-graham-trumps-kill-speech-one-best-ever/

  • Matthew

    Can´t God still give witness to Himself through a written account that is not historically accurate?

  • Bones
  • Bones

    I think what you’re looking for is “what can we get of this Bible passage today?”……..

    And does it still apply?

  • Bones

    Yet paying off a dad for raping his daughter is ok….

  • Bones

    The Bible knows of no such thing.

    It was taboo in their culture.

    Although little is said of girl-on-girl.

  • Bones

    I’m amazed at the downright stupidity and arrogance of some who think they can lie about others and get away with it…..

    Why is that, Everett?

  • Realist1234

    Yes He can.

  • Matthew

    We would probably differ on this, Bones, in that I believe the Bible is still authoritative and inspired although I no longer call the Bible inerrant.

    I believe the Bible to be a compilation of sources that witnesses to God and his relationship with humankind, most specifically his relationship with Israel. Whether a text is historically or scientifically accurate is no longer a major concern for me because I believe the main point of the Bible we have is to get us to Jesus. I don´t believe the Bible has to be inerrant to do that, though because it does do that I believe that makes it both inspired and authoritative.

    [Edited]

  • Matthew

    I find the mix of right wing U.S. politics and evangelicalism (mainly) very problematic, Eva. It seems Franklin Graham is alright with this mix and wants to use government as a way to forward his ultra conservative religious agenda. This is another area where I would disagree with Franklin Graham.

    Ben is reporting what Franklin Graham says. Unless Ben is lying (which I don´t think he is) then much of what Ben reports about Franklin Graham is troublesome to me. Ben reports, I read, then consider, then draw a conclusion (or generate more questions in my mind) about the subject matter at hand.

    Maybe I can ask you a similar question, Eva:

    What things or views do you not agree with that Benjamin posts and writes about?

  • Matthew

    The Body of Christ is supposed to be full of God´s image-bearers for the world;
    manifesting, by the power of the Spirit, God´s kingdom in the lives of others.

    The Book of Acts claims that the earliest believers were turning the world upside
    down by doing just that.

    May the Lord grant his Body (the church) the ability to get back on the right track so that the
    world can indeed be turned upside down once again.

  • Bones

    If it’s not historically accurate all it can give us is general principles eg a moral.

    Using fictional stories to condemn others (including gay people and even the whole of humanity) is a massive problem.

  • Bones

    The Book of Acts is Pauline propaganda but even through that we see the conflicts in Christianity between Paul and the Twelve. Heck revelations even condemns other Christians (eg Paul)

    Christianity has NEVER been on the right track.

    EVER.

    Your wish is a fantasy.

  • Bones

    So when did God stop treating women and gay people like shit?

    Nah, I can think of far more inspiring and authoritative texts and still be like Jesus.

  • Bones

    So offering up your daughters to be raped isn’t as bad as gay sex then?

    It seem to be true what atheists say.

    It takes religion for good people to justify and commit evil.

  • Matthew

    O.K. Bones

  • Bones

    The Satan thing is a copout

    We choose to do good or evil.

  • Matthew

    But is his influence not always present?

  • Bones

    No……

    You don’t need a devil when people have ambitions and fear.

  • Bones

    Illegal immigrant could not be Messiah, Trump’s religious adviser says

    https://www.rt.com/usa/432740-illegal-immigrant-not-messiah/

  • Matthew

    So basically, Bones, after having interacted with you for a few years here on the forum I have concluded that for you the Bible is a farse and fairy tale, Satan is a copout, Jesus is not divine, Paul invented Christianity, there is no original sin, no fall, so … just basically follow the good teachings of Jesus until you die. Oh yes … no resurrection, no new creation, no nothing … am I on target Bones? I just want to see if I have understood you correctly over the years.

  • Bones

    Lol….

    I’m pretty sure Ezekiel was around before the 2nd century anonymous author of 2 Peter…….or Jude

  • vmelkon

    Basically yes. The Paul’s letters is christianity from the POV of Paul. He even attacks some other churches. There are writings that haven’t made it into the bible where one christian sect criticizes another. So, christianity has not been monolithic. There have always been sects fighting each other.

  • vmelkon

    I am just asking a question based on your response.
    You said “he told me so” so I wanted to kow the mode of communication.
    Are you saying the mode of communication in this case is through text (The bible)?

  • vmelkon

    I think that what you are saying is that for Lev 18:22 and the rest of the lines I have quoted, people would be passing judgment and then stoning the gay men to death.
    That comes in conflict with Paul 2:1 where he says do not pass judgment.
    It is a case of too many cooks spoiling the soup. The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.
    However, judging is unavoidable in life. In order to be a Christian, you have to judge your religion as being acceptable or not. You have to judge the jewish god as good or bad.
    It is interesting to see the mental gymnastics a christian has to go through to accept homosexuals (because I think they understand that they are human beings) and there are other christians who don’t give a second though about homosexuals (westboro Baptist church is one prime example) and they are ready to throw them under the bus so that the jewish god would open the doors to heaven for them. To such people, homosexuals have no value. I think most of all, they hate atheists since they associate them with immorality and Russian communism.
    Yes, it is pretty obvious that the jews were patriarchal. Example: If you read Genesis, Adam is created first. The women is a byproduct, created as an after thought, created as a utility for Adam. The women is not even named until after a few paragraphs.
    Quite often, the bible doesn’t even name women.

  • Herm

    vmelkon, how do you communicate with children of Man, as you are one? How does the species of whale communicate with other whales? God is spirit and cannot teach their children fully in even the most rudimentary fundamentals of God “through text”. As a child of God, all communications with God are being with and in one another in spirit (mankind’s image of God). Communicating in spirit within God each are recognized by their unique heart-soul-strength-mind which is spirit separate from any physical description you can think of. This not an exclusive club subject to the animal mankind’s rules of engagement and unity of relationship. You can be included but only by beginning with accepting and developing your gift, that no other species of physical animal on earth appears to have, of the image of God, as spoken of in Genesis, which is spirit, not physical. The texts I offered you were for your edification, not mine. I cannot explain it any better than those texts do. You appear to be of a physical world trying to define God and spirit contained within your world. How do you, physically, know life without beginning or end? How do you, physically, expect to comprehend the concept suggested of every heart-soul-strength-mind with and in every heart-soul-strength-mind of God simultaneously, without pause, without end? That is what Jesus spoke about best in carnal terms. “The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” I know him and that is “the mode of communication”, the Spirit of truth.

  • vmelkon

    The modes of communication is verbal, written (paper or electronic), video (VHS, DVD, online).
    Whales communicate with other whales with sound in water. This is something that has been discovered by those who were interested if whales communicated.

    “God is a spirit”
    ==What is a spirit and how do you know he is a spirit?
    I am not asking how to be included in the christian club.
    My initial question was base don your comment that Jesus communicates with you. Are you now saying that he does not?
    Yes, you quoted the Bible but the question is, why are you quoting the Bible. Why do you believe that the jewish god is real and that Jesus is a god?

  • vmelkon

    Sexual immorality becoming pervasive?
    I don’t think so. There is no such thing as a society that accepts rape just like you aren’t going to find a society that accepts random killings and random stealing.
    What you will find is tribalism. For example, the French. A French might help another French in his society. They might even work together to invade a neighboring country, kill people and steal their gold. People protect their “own” and they will hate the “outsider”. That is human nature.
    So, I think the Sodom story is about jews hating the outsiders, which in this case are the Sodom people. In fact, if you read the Bible, they hate quite a lot of groups. They hate Romans. They hate, I think called the medinites. They hate the amorites. They even go and chop to bits the amorites and steal they young virgin girls.
    Humans always form groups and hate the others. Even in the same society, small groups form, such as Democrats vs Republicans and these guys hate each other quite a bit from what I see on the internet.
    In summary, you don’t understand that the bible has been written by a group known as the jews, who are themselves tribal and have tribalism in their brain.

  • Herm

    Whales communicate with other whales with sound in water. This is something that has been discovered by those who were interested if whales communicated.

    Children of God, of which I am one, communicate with other children of God, of which Jesus is one, with and in spirit. This is something that has been discovered by those who were interested in pursuing spirit, beginning with the image of God gifted them (awareness and influence in spirit), and God (of any descriptive name in any carnal language of mankind) who is, was and will be aware and influential before (no beginning), during, and after (no end) mankind and all that is physical.

    The Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, the Buddhists, the Bahá’ís, the Confusions, the Hindus as well as any carnally defined organization of mankind do not own God. No human organization can define or contain the fullness of God within all data storage on this earth that will ever exist. God has no beginning and has no end. God is in all of the cosmos simultaneously. God can sit in their entirety on top the smallest pimple of a physical quark. God is spirit. Man is carnal and will surely return all of its physical elements back to the cosmos from whence they came. Life is awareness and influence of which God needs no beginning and no end in spirit. Each of, and all of, Man has a beginning and has an end. Earth has a beginning and an end. Our physical cosmos has a beginning and an end. Why are you here, in this forum of spirit, if you insist on defining God purely within the constraints of Man to suit your less than 120 years of awareness and influence?

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Bones…I want to thank you for the comic relief you constantly provide me. I am amazed at your ability to miss the point in most any discussion I have watched you offer your slurs and incessant put downs. I sure hope you find some relief at some point in life.

  • Bones

    Thank you for proving why people like you are so dishonest.

    You can’t even lie straight in bed.

  • Bones

    In the bible women were property for men to own.

    Thats why if a woman committed adultery, her and her lover were executed. Men actually could have sex with single women (hence concubines). The reasoning of course being that a man’s property has been violated.

    There were vaginal tests for women to see if they were virgins (not for men) and men sold their daughters.

    Of course what people dont understand is that these writers were products of their patriarchal and homophobic culture and apply Bronze Age standards to the modern world.

    Heck it was 2 500 years ago.

  • Bones

    Is any of that making you a better human being?

    That’s what it’s all about.

  • Matthew

    Fair enough Eva. Thanks for the clarification.

  • Matthew

    Hello Phil. When you have some time, can you entertain the following question please?:

    What makes one a Christian?

    Thanks

  • Matthew

    Well … I would like to think that my belief in Jesus Christ as Messiah and Lord of all the universe, coupled with the power of his Spirit, gives me the ability to be a better human being today than I was yesterday.

    Personally, I don´t think just following the good teachings of Jesus Christ is enough (as important as they are) to make me a better human. Without being rightly anchored to Jesus, personally, I would fail miserably more than I already do :-( True virtue, I think, must be cultivated in a relationship with the living God, who, I think, is fully manifested in Jesus Christ.

    My sister-in-law is a super nice person. She treats me well. She has a strong will and a determined personality. She loves going to lectures, loves improving herself. She loves Tony Robbins and lately Buddhism as well. One of her biggest goals in life, as a pediatrician, is to enable parents to raise well adjusted kids. Oh … I nearly forgot to mention, she is also a fan of Jesus.

    All that said, she is not a Christian. I don´t judge her. I love her, but I don´t think she can be all that she desires to be without being connected to the true vine.

    But that´s just me Bones. I guess I believe there´s more to the package than simply the moral teachings of a Galilean preacher and rabbi from the 1st century. For me … yes .. Jesus is so much more than that.

    I think I finally understand where you are coming from Bones. I cannot change your personal thoughts, or the intellectual problems you have with the Bible, or the problems you have with an institution that has so often failed in its commission. I can simply love you as you are while I continue to grow into who I have been called to be. Together … let us learn from one another.

    Have a great evening down under.

  • Bones

    And your Jesus has a problem with your sister-in-law because…..?

    Dogma exists solely to divide…..

  • Bones

    And to be quite frank your sister-in-law sounds like a far better human being than many Christians.

    A shame that you think of her like that.

  • Bones

    The liars have to get together and pat each other on the back.

    Why is that not a surprise?

  • Bones

    “If there was ever any rend of doubt whether you truly were a disgusting piece of garbage in the rough shape of a human being, that comment sure sews it up.”

    Apparently that’s now called being a libertarian.

  • Matthew

    I struggle with what I believe about what happens to those who die without a relationship with God, Bones. Really I do.

    My sister-in-law wants it all (and in some ways, from a secular perspective, has it all) without God. As a Christian, though I admit I´m not sure exactly what it is, I believe there is a cost of some sort for outright rejecting God in this life.

    My prayer is that there is a chance for repentance after death, but what if she rejects God then? I guess I´m not a universalist yet, Bones.

  • Bones

    Your God doesn’t like those who don’t have a relationship with him.

    I think that says more about you.

  • otrotierra

    Yep. Eva still does not understand that her documented patterns of bearing false witness will never stop Truth from being proclaimed.

    Because self-serving lies and deception are all she knows, her predictable responses are nothing but more lies, deception, and obfuscation. A common Evangelical strategy. Observe:

  • Bones

    It seems to be something these conservatives have in common.

  • Matthew

    Maybe so …

  • Matthew

    Yes … I know … professed Christians have so often failed humanity … :-(

  • Cynthia

    Traditional Judaism doesn’t distinguish between laws that can be applicable today to Jews, in terms of what needs to be followed. So today, you will find areas with observant Jews which have kosher restaurants without pork or shellfish, and even the odd lab to check cloth for wool/linen blends.

    It does, however, distinguish between commandments for Jews (they count 613 of them) and commandments for everyone else (only 7).

    As well, there is a theoretical notion of a distinction between rules that have a rational basis and rules that don’t have any obvious reason given. Both are applicable, but there is no automatic assumption that a divine commandment is always a reflection of obvious morality. It is possible for an observant Jew to view male same-sex relations as no different than bacon-wrapped shrimp – biblically forbidden, but not a sign that someone is just the worst ever. See https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/No-Holds-Barred-The-Jewish-view-of-homosexuality

  • vmelkon

    Yes, and they created god in their own image (a god that is patriarchal, who choose male adult prophets), a god that creates Adam first, a god that hates homosexual males. Female homosexuality is not mentioned in the bible so I guess it would not result in stoning them to death.

  • Bones

    Which kills your argument of Christian superiority.

  • Bones

    Is so…..

  • Matthew

    All fall short of the glory of God … but thankfully there is always forgiveness in Christ Jesus.

    Goodnight Bones :-)

    [Edited]

  • Matthew

    My point is, Eva, is that the church as a whole needs to own up to its failings and shortcomings that have happened over the centuries.

    There is a genuine reason why many people see the Body of Christ (the church) only as a mechanism of hate and exclusion, regardless of how many saints you cite.

    [Edited]

  • Bones

    Quoting Bible verses is an admission of defeat.

    God will forgive those Christians who are pathetic humans yet not your sister-in-law.

    Its interesting that you think you’re a better person than her.

    What do you do exactly besides spout bible verses?

  • Matthew

    I know you like having the last word Bones :-) … so I´ll let you. Once again … goodnight :-)

  • Bones

    The Catholic archbishop of Adelaide is going to jail for hiding paedophile clergy.

    He’s trying to get out of it of course.

    God will forgive him of course unlike some of the victims who killed themselves.

    Or girls who have abortions.

  • Bones

    You’re no friend.

    You are devious and dishonest.

    And you seem to think that’s a bit of a virtue.

  • Bones

    Laughing at your own lies.

    You really are a pathetic human being.

  • Bones
  • BrotherRog

    Indeed. The sodomites among us tend to be us. See: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogerwolsey/2014/03/mardis-gras-sodomy-us-the-sodomites-among-us-tend-to-be-us/

    Roger Wolsey, author, “Kissing Fish”

  • I’m not going to get into a game of checkers over this but I believe you’ve hit the nail on the head Ben. Rape is not primarily to do with sexual desire it is about power which is why armies have routinely raped the women of conquered peoples. Its a way of demoralising them and putting a stamp on the victory. Its primal. Its probably why rape in prisons is so prevalent.

    Its really interesting how some evangelicals are so hung up over homosexuality, yet they are happy with extrajudicial killings (injustice), abusing immigrants (mistreating the alien), Christians owning huge houses and planes (greed). The big one for Jesus was adultery and that doesn’t even register with them. You’d think power and self interest were fruits of the spirit.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Astute and appreciated

  • Everett Kier Jr

    And you think you have the ability to make that call because???

  • vmelkon

    You didn’t answer my question. Why are they bypassing god’s rules?

  • Yes, this is largely true. It’s the ceremonial/dietary/cleanliness/whatever hat distinctions that aren’t really based in Torah law, as those grew out of Christian revisionism of the text in order to create categories that they no longer had to follow while insisting others were still applicable. XD

  • Guy Norred

    Honestly, I think very few people (if any) actually reject God. They may reject the image of God they have been given which, sadly all too often, I would say is a good thing to reject. Then there are those who have never found the evidence they are looking for. After all faith is the evidence of that for which no tangible evidence can be found. In the end, I think you believe or you don’t believe, but if you actually believe in the God Jesus portrays–a God who is love, why would you reject him? If there is a reason I cannot fathom, God knows what it is and I cannot believe that love could hold that against someone.

  • Cynthia

    Jewish sources talk about a distinction between “chok” and “mishpat” but I don’t know how much of that analysis was influenced by Christianity.

  • Ficino

    You mean, some of those Trump supporters are, according to the Bible, literally committing the sin of Sodom because they wallow in wealth and turn against the poor and needy (and strangers in their midst)?

    No, no, say it ain’t so, Benjamin.

  • Richard Lambert

    I think for the most part, in the old testament, whenever a person or people were declared “righteous” , it seems to me that it was simply because God said they were so, at least in as much as their part of the covenant/agreement with Him was kept. Its really quite convenient, you can do what ever you want to the surrounding peoples and regions, but as long as your performing the right rituals on the right days with the right tools, your right-right-righteous with God….. and everyone else who dont, are not. :/ I’ll just say it…most of isreal were not righteous because they actually did what was right, it was more like “we’re righteous cuz God said so.”

  • Judgeforyourself37

    Anyone who takes the Bible literally is ignorant. They love to spout nonsense to feel superior. Most Fundamentalist Churches have preachers who probably had six weeks of “preaching school” and little else. They do not know the first thing about reading the Bible in the light of the 21st century. They do not have the ability to interpret it, they just spew it out as the literal truth.
    Many of these “preachers” are bigots, racists, misogynists, homophobes and xenophobes, and not anyone to be believed.
    I will say that a “Fundie” church that I attended (and walked out before the end of the service) did have a beautiful choir and some of their members had been professional singers. Perhaps people return to those types of churches for the entertainment, and sleep when the preacher is jabbering his nonsense. I said “his” as Fundamentalist Churches eschew female preachers.

  • Judgeforyourself37

    I am not Phil, but I can give you my opinion on what “makes someone Christian.” That person helps and loves their wife or husband if they are married or in a committed relationship, cares for their children, if they have children, tries to help others, is kind, does not discriminate, is compassionate, is not a racist, or a bigot or a homophobe or a xenophobe, decries injustice, tries, but sometimes fails, to be a decent human being. These are things that Jesus would want us to do, but….all of these attributes could apply to followers of other religions, too.
    Remember, Phil, there are many roads to the top of that mountain.

  • Judgeforyourself37

    The story dealt with hospitality, not whether those involved were LBGTQAI+.

  • Judgeforyourself37

    No, Premium, just the opposite. Trump is the anthesis of anything that Christ would want us to be.

  • Karla Marie Robinett

    I agree with everything you say except about Lot. That’s not how the Bible describes him.
    2 Peter 2:8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
    8 (for that just man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by what he saw and heard of their lawless acts),…
    Just an observation.

  • Jeb Barrett

    All of this reference to archaic, prescientific cosmology serves only as a diversion and distraction from the potential goodness within every human being treated and nurtured with love, compassion and mercy. There is no evidence of divine supernatural beings, only the nonmaterial, essential part of our full humanity.

  • steve

    God didn’t do anything, because gods are all fictional, mythical characters.

  • Ken Allen

    I wouldn’t be so hard on the “fundies,” since they were not
    the first to claim that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was what we would call
    the “homosexual act.” Philo of Alexandria and Josephus also are in that group
    of accusers.

    Philo of Alexandria, On Abraham 27.137, trans.C. D. Yonge, 1854.

    Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 1.11.3, trans. William Whiston, 1998.

  • Bones

    Lol, you haven’t read it have you. Just been told by fundies what it says….

    “1. About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth: they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God: insomuch that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices. God was therefore much displeased at them; and determined to punish them for their pride, and to overthrow their city, and to lay waste their country, till there should neither plant nor fruit grow out of it.

    2. When God had thus resolved concerning the Sodomites, Abraham, as he sat by the Oak of Mambre, at the door of his tent, saw three Angels; and thinking them to be strangers, he rose up, and saluted them, and desired they would accept of an entertainment, and abide with him: to which, when they agreed, he ordered cakes of meal to be made presently: and when he had slain a calf, he roasted it, and brought it to them, as they sat under the oak. Now they made a shew of eating; and besides they asked him about his wife Sarah, where she was? and when he said, she was within, they said they should come again hereafter, and find her become a mother. Upon which the woman laughed, and said that it was impossible she should bear children: since she was ninety years of age, and her husband was an hundred. Then they concealed themselves no longer; but declared that they were Angels of God; and that one of them was sent to inform them about the child; and two for the overthrow of Sodom.

    3. When Abraham heard this, he was grieved for the Sodomites; and he rose up, and besought God for them, and intreated him that he would not destroy the righteous with the wicked. And when God had replied, that there was no good man among the Sodomites: for if there were but ten such man among them, he would not punish any of them for their sins, Abraham held his peace. [About An. 1940] And the Angels came to the city of the Sodomites, and Lot intreated them to accept of a lodging with him: for he was a very generous and hospitable man; and one that had learned to imitate the goodness of Abraham. Now when the Sodomites saw the young men to be of beautiful countenances, and this to an extraordinary degree, and that they took up their lodgings with Lot, they resolved themselves to enjoy these beautiful boys by force and violence: and when Lot exhorted them to sobriety, and not to offer any thing immodest to the strangers, but to have regard to their lodging in his house; and promised, that if their inclinations could not be governed, he would expose his daughters to their lust, instead of these strangers: neither thus were they made ashamed.”

    Flavius Josephus of the Antiquities of the Jews — Book I

    Philo – On Abraham

    “XXVI. (133) And what is signified by this is indicated in a most evident and careful manner by the events which ensued. The country of the Sodomites was a district of the land of Canaan, which the Syrians afterwards called Palestine, a country full of innumerable iniquities, and especially of gluttony and debauchery, and all the great and numerous pleasures of other kinds which have been built up by men as a fortress, on which account it had been already condemned by the Judge of the whole world. (134) And the cause of its excessive and immoderate intemperance was the unlimited abundance of supplies of all kinds which its inhabitants enjoyed. For the land was one with a deep soil, and well watered, and as such produced abundant crops of every kind of fruit every year. And he was a wise man and spoke truly who said–

    “The greatest cause of all iniquity

    Is found in overmuch prosperity.”

    (135) As men, being unable to bear discreetly a satiety of these things, get restive like cattle, and become stiff-necked, and discard the laws of nature, pursuing a great and intemperate indulgence of gluttony, and drinking, and unlawful connections; for not only did they go mad after women, and defile the marriage bed of others, but also those who were men lusted after one another, doing unseemly things, and not regarding or respecting their common nature, and though eager for children, they were convicted by having only an abortive offspring; but the conviction produced no advantage, since they were overcome by violent desire; (136) and so, by degrees, the men became accustomed to be treated like women, and in this way engendered among themselves the disease of females, and intolerable evil; for they not only, as to effeminacy and delicacy, became like women in their persons, but they made also their souls most ignoble, corrupting in this way the whole race of man, as far as depended on them. At all events, if the Greeks and barbarians were to have agreed together, and to have adopted the commerce of the citizens of this city, their cities one after another would have become desolate, as if they had been emptied by a pestilence.”

    XXVII. (137) But God, having taken pity on mankind, as being a Saviour and full of love for mankind, increased, as far as possible, the natural desire of men and women for a connexion together, for the sake of producing children, and detesting the unnatural and unlawful commerce of the people of Sodom, he extinguished it, and destroyed those who were inclined to these things, and that not by any ordinary chastisement, but he inflicted on them an astonishing novelty, and unheard of rarity of vengeance;

    Btw Philo associates the man-woman with pagan practices.

  • Bones

    Lol, he was following following Catholic rules.

    God will forgive this disgraceful priest but not the victims of his crimes.

    Hey moron, why have 13 Catholic diocese declared bankruptcy in the US alone?

    (Hint: to avoid paying victims of abuse)

    “thereby takes into consideration peoples circumstances etc.”

    Unless it’s abortion.

  • Bones

    Lol…..and you people have no shame.

    Because you think your shit doesn’t stink.

  • Bones

    Except you’re a liar…..

    So everything you post is lies.

  • Bones

    You lie about the dead to try and justify your own ideology.

    Your lack of shame is embarrassing.

    I bet you’re one of those who loves pointing out others’ sins.

    Of course you are.

    But lying is a virtue for you types nowdays.

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much Guy Norred.

    Do you think committment and attraction to other Gods might be an issue as well?

  • Ken Allen

    “But god, having taken pity on mankind, as
    being a savior and full of love for mankind, increased, as far as possible, the
    natural desire of men and women for a connection together, for the sake of
    producing children, and detesting the unnatural and unlawful commerce of the
    people of sodom, he extinguished it, and destroyed those who were inclined to
    these things.”

    Philo of Alexandria, On Abraham 27.137, trans.C. D. Yonge, 1854.

    “[When the] sodomites saw the young
    men to be of beautiful countenances, and this to an extraordinary degree . . .
    they resolved themselves to enjoy these beautiful boys by force and violence.”

    Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 1.11.3, trans.William Whiston, 1998.

  • gimpi1

    I’m in the ‘never found the evidence’ camp. I lurk here and other places as part of the search. I admit to having problems with the idea of a loving deity that demands belief, punishes disbelief, yet provides no clear, straightforward evidence for belief. Seems a bit unpleasant to me. Then again, there’s a ton of stuff I don’t understand, hence the search…

  • GoodCatholicGirl

    Nor do you, evidently.

  • gimpi1

    “… if such a person (or even deity) thinks you can be a great guy and also offer to hand your kids over to be gang raped, I’m not really interested in being in relationship with such a person or deity.”

    YES Dr. Corey, oh YES! How can such actions be remotely acceptable, let alone laudable? How can people simply blow off any basic decency and just assume if their concept of God is OK with something, it’s just fine? How can someone be so sure their views are right that even obvious brutal horror doesn’t give them pause?

    An aside; Dr. Corey, I know you’re had a rough year. As someone who’s last few months have also been sub-par, I empathize. Best wishes for better days ahead.

  • Realist1234

    In your opinion.

  • Realist1234

    ‘Rape is not primarily to do with sexual desire it is about power which is why armies have routinely raped the women of conquered peoples.’

    – I think it’s both sexual desire and power. But your observation begs the question – is it not rather odd that all of these men wanted to have sex with these other men? Had they run out of women?!

    ‘yet they are happy with extrajudicial killings (injustice), abusing immigrants (mistreating the alien), Christians owning huge houses and planes (greed).’

    – Im not happy, not happy, live in a small house (though Im not sure you can arbitrarily say that no Christians can live in a large home (size is relative, in many things!) – I suppose I could live in a cardboard box, oh you live in a cardboard box – I lived in a hole in the ground…-, just weird.

  • Realist1234

    Showed his desperation, anything so that God’s messengers would not be harmed. Still, not an excuse.

  • Bones

    Why do you omit the rest?

  • Bones

    Look another one comes to join the liars.

    They cant help themselves.

    Its no surprise though.

  • Bones

    Hey moron, the teachings of the Catholic church is that the catholic church is not subject to secular authorities.

    The clergy set themselves up as gods aithority on earth.

    Untouchable behind their robes while they destroy lives.

    And dioceses have been instructed to go bankrupt rather than pay their victims.

    And you have the gall to judge and lie about others.

    You are utterly contemptible.

    Now go and disappear like you always do.

  • Bones

    Dude I’ve already quoted it.

    Except I included the whole passages.

    You know the bits about injustice and how they had sex with women as well.

    So they obviously werent too gay.

    Dishonesty just comes natural to you then.

  • GoodCatholicGirl

    Spoken like a true bigot.

  • Fartrell Cluggins

    A lot of this reminds me of our current Republican party. Oh please God, smite them.

  • Guy Norred

    Certainly, though it seems to me that that is part of the image of God they have been given. I mean their image of the God we know is filtered through the image of these other Gods. Each of us has a slightly different version of Paul’s dark mirror. It really is luck that our versions are clear enough to draw us to God and I cannot believe that a God who is love would hold a lack of luck against someone. At least that is the image I see in my version of the mirror.

  • Guy Norred

    I have a problem with that image of God as well. I believe God would rather one had an honest atheism than a mercenary faith.

  • Matthew

    Thanks Guy Norred.

  • Matthew

    Yes … agreed … best wishes for better days ahead.

  • Ron McPherson

    “…the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;” Genesis‬ ‭19:4‬

    I think it’s a real stretch to believe “all the people from every quarter” were gay. Like mobs of raging gay men surrounded Lot’s home.
    ‭‭

  • C_Alan_Nault

    I thought the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was to teach us that a righteous man has no problem offering up his young virgin daughters to be gang-raped.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Here’s the thing Bob.

    Unless you can prove the god of the Bible actually exists & then can prove the Bible is an accurate account, whatever the Bible has to say about anything can be dismissed as imaginary tales.

  • Bones

    Oh no.

    Liars are being discriminated against.

  • Bones

    Lol derpy (p)rick defends liars and antigay bigots who say the nazis were a gay plot. (Hence why the Nazis killed gay people)

    What we have here is a derpathon, folks!

  • Bones

    And now (p)rick has to defend those who slander Margaret Sanger and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

    Well that’s derpy (p)rick for ya.

    The defender of liars and slanderers.

  • Bones

    Lol…that would be you derpy.

    You like defending liars

  • Bones

    Poor (p)rick only comes on to post about big bad bones pointing out the utter hypocrisy of people like himself.

  • Bones

    Yep….how about you post some more lies about Margaret Sanger.

    I mean thats what gets you off, doesn’t it, moron?

    You’re right though…pointing out your sins is pointless….

    Thats the whole point of the utter hypocrisy of people like yourself.

    Btw who the f*** used the term limey anymore.

    Over here we call Brits poms.

  • Bones

    Lol….limey is a term for a Brit, moron.

    You can’t even get your insults right.

    You lied about Margaret Sanger but that’s the sort of person you are.
    One who belongs to an organisation which cares more about abortion than the victims of their own clergy.

    In you there is no Truth.

    That’s why you delete your posts.

    Now its up to 15 Dioceses in the US declared bankrupt

    Dioceses and Religious Orders
    That Have Filed for Bankruptcy Protection

    1. Archdiocese of Portland OR (filed 7/6/04)
    2. Diocese of Tucson AZ (9/20/04)
    3. Diocese of Spokane WA (12/6/04)
    4. Diocese of Davenport IA (10/10/06)
    5. Diocese of San Diego CA (2/27/07)
    6. Diocese of Fairbanks AK (3/1/08)
    7. Oregon Province of the Jesuits (2/17/09)
    8. Diocese of Wilmington DE & MD (10/18/09)
    9. Archdiocese of Milwaukee WI (1/4/11)
    10. Congregation of the Christian Brothers (4/28/11)
    11. Diocese of Gallup NM (11/12/13)
    12. Diocese of Stockton CA (1/15/14)
    13. Diocese of Helena MT (1/31/14)
    14. Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis MN (1/16/15)
    15. Diocese of Duluth MN (12/7/15)
    16. Diocese of New Ulm MN (3/3/17)
    17. Diocese of Great Falls-Billings MT (3/31/17)
    18. Crosier Fathers and Brothers MN & AZ (6/1/17)

    19. Diocese of St. Cloud MN (intention announced 2/28/18)

  • Bones

    Must be time for you to delete your lies again, moron.

  • Realist1234

    ‘Like mobs of raging gay men ‘

    – stranger things… Have you ever watched a gay Pride? lol

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Thanks Rick….one wonders if he has a life at all or what makes him so committed to rude and crude behavior.

  • Linda Coleman Allen

    I do so enjoy your blogs about Franklin Graham. On the rare occasion that I have heard him speak, I have quickly changed the channel. The best that I can tell, he is pretty much wrong about everything and is just trading on his name.

  • Ron McPherson
  • Ron McPherson

    The issue is not that you should live in a cardboard box, but rather the hypocrisy of evangelicals harping on gays. It’s the speck and log thing.

  • Purity Balls

    Philo of Alexandria incited Lynch mobs against gay men. This is a violation of Jewish Law which requires q trial for a death penalty. Philo was a bad Jew and a psychopath.

  • Hey Matthew,

    Wow! No small questions, eh?

    In terms of being specifically Christian, Paul writes about Jesus:

    he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Eph. 1:20-23)

    People who believe that and are willing to engage the life calling that entails (emulation of Jesus, faithfulness to God, putting off the old creation to live out the new creation, willingness to endure suffering for this calling, etc.) are, by my lights, Christians in the specific sense of the term.

    I think Christians can genuinely disagree on the exact definitions of those terms, and it’s also true that someone doesn’t have to be specifically Christian to embody the ethics of new creation humanity. The sad state of affairs we have today is that many who identify as Christians do not seem to be very interested in being the new creation, and many who have no significant regard for Christianity do a pretty good job being what we should be and doing what we should do.

    I think this raises a number of options when we talk about what God will do eschatologically with humanity as a whole, but in terms of specifically who I would define as Christians, I feel pretty good with the definition above. I think it defines both the earliest faith communities and works as a contemporary definition, too.

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much Phil. I seldom have small questions :-)

    Some conversations I have had this past week have me reflecting on the idea of being able to reject the church dogma and doctrines about the faith and Jesus Christ (some of which are mentioned in the Ephesians passage you share), but still being able to call oneself a Christian.

    Also … it seems many of us in the west find ourselves in a context where although materialism, consumerism, worship of self, etc. is running rampant, there is still this strong belief that society can win the day if everyone is just a better human being and we let any God-talk simply fall into the great abyss.

    Finally … it seems a lot of folks are O.K. with Christians who simply talk about the good teachings of Jesus Christ, and the need to follow them, but once you begin talking about resurrection, Jesus as Lord, sin, repentance, judgement, etc., then suddenly you become persona non grata.

    Thoughts?

  • Kishan Aria

    God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for many sins including homosexuality. This blogger has no idea what they are talking about. They have not read the Bible and believed it.

    A real Bible study on this.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Sodom-and-Gomorrah.html

  • Kishan Aria

    Seems like it from what I can see

  • Kishan Aria

    He is very wrong

  • Well, keep in mind that I said that it’s quite possible for Christians to disagree on what the terms actually mean. I may have my own interpretations of what it means to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and affirm his resurrection, but others may differ in their interpretation and that wouldn’t necessarily make them not a Christian, in my opinion.

    But the term has to mean something and that something, by nature of the case, revolves around the importance of Christ. I have some friends who are atheists who are very caring people. They take care of their families, they pursue justice, they spread compassion and healing in the world. In just about every way that counts, their behavior looks like Jesus and is what any Christian should aspire to. But they are not Christians by either my reckoning or theirs.

    And that’s why I made the point that when we talk about being the new creation, that category can be broader than just Christians, and we might debate what the outcome of all that is, but I (not that anyone should care) would not label someone a Christian solely because their behavior was exemplary of what God wanted in the world. Abraham and Moses and David and Solomon weren’t Christians, either. There’s a belief/confession component to it as well.

    But the converse is also true. I would not typically classify someone as a Christian who claimed the belief/profession piece and embodied things like the pursuit of power and prosperity and self-promotion over all, or the exploitation of the weak for their own gain, or hatred of other people, or wanton hedonistic excess – and I can’t speak to your side of the Pond, but in America, that’s where we’re really taking it in the teeth.

    People of other religions and atheists who care for others, pursue justice and compassion, and live unselfishly for the benefit of their fellow man are a living indictment against the Christian church in America, and for every Christian who responds to this indictment by throwing themselves anew into the task of being a blessing to the world, there are nine who double down on why they shouldn’t have to do such a thing.

    I do have to acknowledge that there can be differing interpretations of ethics just as their can be differing interpretations of doctrinal confessions, and just because someone doesn’t define “being Jesus in the world” the same way I do doesn’t make them not a Christian, but much like the doctrinal piece, eventually you get to a point that’s so far afield that it’s indistinguishable from not being a Christian at all. And, frankly, I would rather share a planet with people who embodied the new creation in the world but eschewed Christian doctrine than people who affirmed Christian doctrine and went right along perpetuating the evil structures of the age.

    So, all that to say that I think it’s important to keep in mind that:
    1 – People being what God wants people to be is not the exclusive domain of Christians.
    2 – Christians can vary to a degree on what their core confession means or what ethics ought to look like, but
    3 – “Christian” is a term that means something, such that people who are not Christians recognize they are not Christians even though they may be living out an ethic that has lots or even everything in common with the ethics Christians also should aspire to.

  • barry

    You are correct. That act apparently didn’t motivate the NT authors to downgrade their estimation of Lot’s righteousness:

    7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
    8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
    9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, (2 Pet. 2:7-9 NAU)

  • Matthew

    So much to think about Phil. The time you spend is always appreciated. Thanks so much.

    Matthew

  • Kishan Aria

    Amen

  • Ken Allen

    The argument that I made is that neither Fundamentalists nor
    any other modern group were the first or only ones to accuse the inhabitants of
    Sodom and Gomorrah of committing homosexual acts. The quotes that I cited
    support the fact that others who lived much earlier than the “fundies” considered
    those acts as homosexual and not necessarily an act of demoralization. I don’t
    think that attacking a group of Christians who differ from others in biblical
    interpretation should be a characterized like Judgeforyourself37
    did. I am not addressing the argument that these were or were not homosexual
    acts, just that others have made that assessment and that they were much closer
    to the over arching context of the ancient culture than us.

  • Watchman for Zion

    Benjamin Corey is an apostate believer and preaches a false gospel which he will be judged for!

  • Bones

    Your argument was fallacious. And dishonest.

    eg “for not only did they go mad after women, and defile the marriage bed of others, but also those who were men lusted after one another…”

    Does this sound like gay people to you?

  • Bones

    Who ya going to lie about now, Everett?

    That’s the hypocrisy of you types who think their shit doesn’t stink.

    But apparently supporting lies is now ‘astute and appreciated’.

  • Bones

    And a better way of describing you is a dishonest, deceitful two-faced lying bitch.

    Obviously the Catholic church supports such behaviour.

  • Bones

    lol….(pr)rick’s digital footprint

    “Don’t pick on liars and bigots. you bullies”

  • Bones

    Aaaaand another one who wants to support liars and bigots.

    Watch the cockroaches scatter when the lights get turned on.

  • Bones

    Please tell us how a gay pride event is the same as the events at Sodom.

  • Bones

    Hey moron…..

    You belong to an organisation whose leadership not only supported abusing children but refuses to accept responsiblilty for it…

    Hence why dioceses go bankrupt

    Dioceses and Religious Orders
    That Have Filed for Bankruptcy Protection

    1. Archdiocese of Portland OR (filed 7/6/04)
    2. Diocese of Tucson AZ (9/20/04)
    3. Diocese of Spokane WA (12/6/04)
    4. Diocese of Davenport IA (10/10/06)
    5. Diocese of San Diego CA (2/27/07)
    6. Diocese of Fairbanks AK (3/1/08)
    7. Oregon Province of the Jesuits (2/17/09)
    8. Diocese of Wilmington DE & MD (10/18/09)
    9. Archdiocese of Milwaukee WI (1/4/11)
    10. Congregation of the Christian Brothers (4/28/11)
    11. Diocese of Gallup NM (11/12/13)
    12. Diocese of Stockton CA (1/15/14)
    13. Diocese of Helena MT (1/31/14)
    14. Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis MN (1/16/15)
    15. Diocese of Duluth MN (12/7/15)
    16. Diocese of New Ulm MN (3/3/17)
    17. Diocese of Great Falls-Billings MT (3/31/17)
    18. Crosier Fathers and Brothers MN & AZ (6/1/17)

    19. Diocese of St. Cloud MN (intention announced 2/28/18)

    Your deflection once again shows your dishonesty to face up to YOUR organisation.

    And no wonder you love Live Action….they lie like you do….

    Take a video made in an Appleton, Wis., Planned Parenthood center. The woman pretending to be pregnant asks: “When does it become a baby?”

    “Ah, when you’re like seven months pregnant. Or six, seven moths pregnant,” the doctor says, before the video jumps straight to him saying: “But you don’t wanna wait, because the sooner you do an abortion the easier it is and the quicker it is.”

    In reality, what the doctor said next was much different, according to the longer version: “Are you sure this is the best thing for you?”

    That question doesn’t fit with the notion that the doctor was urging her to have an abortion and was spliced from the video, as was the rest of the exchange.

    A Birmingham production featuring Rose is similarly misleading and only includes audio. Rose misidentifies a woman as a Planned Parenthood counselor when, according to Planned Parenthood, she is simply a translator. In the omitted portions of the video, the translator repeatedly cautions that she can’t give advice.

    In the audio, the translator tells Rose: “If you don’t have a grandparent or somebody else who has the same last name of you, then you won’t be able to get it done.” In the part left out, she immediately adds: “Now, that’s just me saying that, but you can call back tomorrow and talk to somebody else and see what they suggest you do, but to my knowledge, that’s how things work.”

    Rose follows up. “There is anything else I can do?” she asks.

    The translator tells her three more times that she needs parental consent. “You can call back and talk to somebody else tomorrow — mmkay? — and see what they say. But as far as I know it’s a state law, you have to have a parents consent. Or a legal guardian’s consent if you are under the age of 18.”

    “Is that just the law for here?”

    “No, that’s the law. Period. Anywhere you go, if you are under the age of 18, you’re going to have to have a parent’s consent,” she says.

    “My boyfriend can drive me anywhere,” Rose offers, presumably hoping the translator will tell her to drive out of state.

    “Mm-hm, yeah, but you have to have a parent’s consent. Because if something happens to you and you walk out of here and your parents don’t know, they can sue us,” she says.

    The encounter with the translator provides an insight into the contradiction behind Rose’s films. Because she is dealing mostly with front desk volunteers or first round nurses, it is easier to find Planned Parenthood people speaking loosely. The next round of the process — were Rose actually pregnant and shuffled through — would put her in front of a counselor and doctor who would be required to do a more thorough investigation. The Birmingham translator, in fact, repeatedly tells Rose that she won’t get away with fibbing during her next session and, indeed, Rose has never been able to trick a second-round staffer into breaking any laws.

    In February, in the lead up to the vote, Live Action targeted Planned Parenthood facilities in the Bronx, Richmond and elsewhere, with an apparent pimp and prostitute asking for information on drug testing, birth control and abortions. Planned Parenthood immediately referred the visits to the FBI, suspecting something was off. Media Matters took a close look at the Richmond video and found irregularities.

    In most of the videos, before the man in the video tells the Planned Parenthood worker that he is involved in “sex work,” he asks if the conversation is confidential. Indeed, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, better known as HIPAA, strictly protects patients’ privacy, and fines for violating it can run into the millions. The only exception to the law comes if the medical provider suspects criminal activity, said Roger Evans, senior director of public policy, litigation and law for Planned Parenthood. Under such circumstances, a health care provider can break the confidentiality seal but must still do so with great care, a Planned Parenthood official said. That makes nailing Planned Parenthood to the wall for somehow colluding with human traffickers much tougher than doing so with ACORN, where there is no strict law requiring privacy.

    “All healthcare providers must protect patient confidentiality, which is governed by HIPAA and other federal and state laws. This is particularly important in the field of reproductive health services. Accordingly, Planned Parenthood insists on the highest professional standards relating to patient privacy, while adhering to applicable state laws, which vary from state to state, that mandate reports to state agencies in particular circumstances such as child abuse,” said Evans. “In situations where there is no mandate or prohibition under applicable law, Planned Parenthood health providers can contact law enforcement or health care officials when abuse or illegal conduct is suspected. In this case, given that adult patients provided information that described sex trafficking involving minors across state lines, Planned Parenthood notified federal authorities.”

    Beyond the fundamental difficulty of pinning them with the felony, some of the videos are edited with a heavy hand. In an Indianapolis video, the pretend patient appears to ask: “If they find out about I — us — pregnant, then they will find out about my boyfriend. And I don’t want him to get in trouble.”

    The Planned Parenthood volunteer responds: “Yes, absolutely.”

    But in the unedited video, the woman actually asks: “If they find out about I — us –pregnant, is it confidential?”

    The volunteer’s response of “Yes, absolutely” seems less objectionable in its true context. Rose has taken the longer video off of her site, but Planned Parenthood had archived and transcribed it.

    The patient again says that she doesn’t want to get her boyfriend in trouble. “I can understand that. We have laws to follow here in Indiana. And you have to get approval if you’re a minor. And we have to follow the laws,” says the volunteer.

    The fake patient later presses again on the boyfriend issue. “If I set up an appointment, are they going to ask me how old my boyfriend is? ‘Cause he told me that if people found out, they would be very mad at him,” she says.

    “Um, we don’t ask anything about the boyfriend,” says the volunteer. In the spliced video, the next words out of the volunteer’s mouth are: “We don’t really care about who, what the age of the boyfriend is.”

    In the unedited clip, the volunteer says she isn’t concerned about the boyfriend because the decision belongs to the woman. “Um, we don’t ask anything about the boyfriend. We ask about you. We ask if you’re married, if you have other children, and so on and so forth,” says the Planned Parenthood volunteer.

    Rose promoted the edited video as proof that Planned Parenthood knew that a 13-year-old child was impregnated by a 31-year-old man but continued to counsel the patient. But in the full-length video, it becomes clear that Rose, who is pretending to be pregnant, tells a volunteer that she is 13 and later tells a nurse that her boyfriend is 31. Each person has only one piece of the information, though in the edited tape it appears as though Rose is talking to the same person the entire time. Rose was in fact over 18 at the time of the video, so the nurse would have little reason to suspect statutory rape. At the very end of the longer clip, Rose tells the nurse that she is 13, at which point the video cuts out and the nurse is seen giving no further counseling. An official affiliated with Planned Parenthood said that the nurse suspected that Rose was lying about her age and so ended the conversation. Had Rose gone forward with the process and become an official patient of the center, she would have then been required to show identification, said the official.

    At a Milwaukee clinic, Rose claimed to find an employee pushing a woman to have an abortion, saying in an April 2010 press release that the Planned Parenthood staffer “emphasizes the difficulties of adoption [and] urges the woman to obtain an abortion as soon as possible.” In fact, the staffer repeatedly counseled the woman to give the decision deep thought and reminded her frequently that she could change her mind up until the end.

    “But like I said, even if you’re sure now, you could always have your first appointment and change your mind. Nothing’s set in stone until that day,” says the employee in the full-length video, counseling that was omitted from the edited version. “But it’s up to you, if you decide you want to continue with the pregnancy, and, that’s why there’s that 24-hour waiting period. So, they do an ultrasound and a counseling appointment, they’ll answer any questions you have about the procedure and you’ll be able to talk with the nurse there. They’ll do an ultrasound so you know exactly how far along you are so you know what your options are, and if you decide after that ultrasound you want to continue with the pregnancy you can do so, nothing’s set in stone, ya know, and we don’t force you either way, it’s your decision completely.”

    The employee’s general advice was also left out. “Some people tell you abortion’s wrong, some people tell you otherwise, but it’s your choice,” she says. “That’s an issue you can’t really be on the fence about. You’re either for it or against it. There’s no in-between, because there’s no other options other than adoption. And I always recommend adoption first, but if you can’t do that – if you can’t let people know you’re pregnant, and you’re considering abortion, really sit down and think about it. And this pamphlet would probably be the best to help you out. It’s “Unsure About Your Pregnancy” and it has questions in here that you can answer, and you fill this out and it helps you decide what your best option would be.”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/planned-parenthood-funding_n_827886

  • Ron McPherson

    Religious conservatives take the Sodom story and turn it into a condemnation of gay people. The fact that Lot offered up his own daughters to an angry mob to do anything they want with them is not that big of a deal I guess. Even when I was mired in a conservative religious environment I often wondered why the sermon was never about how whacked out Lot was. It’s like that one doesn’t much register on the radar.

    It’s the same mentality that sees gay people at a pride parade as the evil ones rather than the spiritually abusive Westboro types holding up turn or burn signs .

  • Matthew

    If what you say is true Phil, and I´m in agreement with most of it, what´s the advantage then, in your view, of even being a professed Christian?

  • Kishan Aria

    You are wrong with your hysterical and inaccurate post

  • It sounds like Bronze Age meth is a helluva drug.

  • Ken Allen

    Actually, it does. Men lusting after one another does sound like homosexual lusting.

  • Kishan Aria

    You are correct

  • Kishan Aria

    Of course it is

  • kaydenpat

    Citation? I see below that you were just joking.

  • Ron McPherson

    The sad thing is that some will probably go, hey that makes perfect sense

  • Herm

    Say, Rev Bob, could you be more explicit, please? Exactly which religious and/or political beliefs, or principles, has Dr. Corey abandoned in your judgment? What are the credentials of authority which support your differing perspective of the “Good News” from those you perceive as Ben’s?

  • Herm

    Say, Kishan Aria, could you be more explicit, please? Exactly which religious and/or political beliefs, or principles, has Dr. Corey abandoned in your judgment? What are the credentials of authority which support your differing perspective of the “Good News” from those you perceive as Ben’s?

  • The God of Israel is the God who created the heavens and the earth, and as things began to go badly, He established a new creation in the midst of the old one in the form of a people He made agreements with. Today, being a Christian is being part of this people which puts us in covenant and relationship with this God in the manner in which He is providing this in history.

    This people has His promises, the realization of the Spirit, and the consequent hope for the future. This is the people that God saves when they are threatened with extinction. He forgives their sins when they turn away from them to do better. Being a part of this people is a calling into being a priestly servant who is in a deliberate and focused relationship with God and also dedicated to be a blessing to the world. In addition, we belong to a community that (we hope) embodies the new creation. Among the people of God, I experience justice, forgiveness, compassion, love, healing, comfort, and restoration even as we look forward to a renewal of the heavens and earth.

    Additionally, Jesus is Lord over these people, which means that by the power of the Spirit he is our leader and shepherd and dwells among us and in us, and this not only steers us through our various historical crises but also produces Christ-like behavior among his people. Jesus running the show is a good thing and is good news.

    In the biblical narrative, the differences between “the way the Christian community works” and “the way the Empire works” or “the way the corrupt Temple power structure works” are obvious, although there are glimpses of the idea that the picture is not as simplistic as it seems. A good portion of Jesus’ own people do not believe him, but a Roman centurion does. Still, the lines are fairly solid in the big picture. You have the powers of the age that run off oppression, self-exaltation, and self-gratification, and you have the people of God who run off self-sacrifice, love of neighbor, and devotion to God.

    At our current point in history, long past the cultural-political background of, say, the book of Acts – we’re in a weird situation. There are some countries where the situation is analogous to that early community of believers – selfless, Spirit-filled bonds of sacrificial love pitted against the powerful boot of oppressive regimes. But in other countries, the communities of believers are truly a mixed bag, some of whom looking so much like the world powers Jesus was -against- that people outside the community of faith end up looking more like Jesus than the people claiming his name.

    This seems more analogous to Jesus’ ministry among his own people. They all shared a common religion, but some of them used that religion for power, prestige, wealth, comfort, and they didn’t care who they beat down with it, while others found this situation regrettable and longed for the consolation of Israel and found in Jesus a hope for what they could be and what the future might hold, while yet a third group was just tired of the whole thing and just wanted to make it through life the best way they knew how. In terms of air time in the gospels, Jesus spends the majority of his time calling people from that third group into the second one.

    By doing this, Jesus creates a sort of dividing line between those who technically held to Israel’s religion (and maybe even performed it fastidiously) but who had cut the heart out of it and made it a mechanism for worldly power – and those who, in faith, came to Jesus believing he would show them the way to being better individuals, a better people as a whole, and having a better future, safe through coming calamity.

    Jesus, the people he is forming around himself, and their future is better than anything that power, money, or hedonism can get you, and that’s still a message I have for people today.

    These days, I do not believe being a Christian keeps someone from an eternity of torture in the afterlife. However, I do believe in a new creation and I do believe that anything that plagues mankind will not be present in that creation. I’m not a universalist; I don’t think we’ll see Antiochus Epiphanes in the new heavens and the new earth. However, I also acknowledge that we might! That’s God’s prerogative and I have a lot of sympathies with my universalist brothers and sisters.

    What’s more, there are passages in the Bible that indicate that people who behave as God’s people do and take care of people like God’s people do will share in the rewards that God’s people do even if they don’t know they are serving Jesus. So, I don’t feel like the message, “Become a Christian or God will ultimately destroy you,” is an accurate message, especially because I suspect there will be a chunk of Christians who will be very surprised at God’s evaluation of their lives.

    But when I share Jesus with someone, it’s not to avert disaster they might suffer at God’s hands, but rather calling them out of a broken, empty, oppressive world that is passing away into a new world where love is the Law and the Spirit is real and the man in charge of the whole thing is Jesus who is both Lord and Christ.

  • Herm

    Mission Statement of Got Questions Ministries:

    “Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually related questions through an internet presence.”

    GotQuestions.org is a ministry of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational. We view ourselves as a para-church ministry, coming alongside the church to help people find answers to their spiritually related questions.

    We will do our best to prayerfully and thoroughly research your question and answer it in a biblically based manner. It is not our purpose to make you agree with us, but rather to point you to what the Bible says concerning your question. You can be assured that your question will be answered by a trained and dedicated Christian who loves the Lord and desires to assist you in your walk with Him. Our writing staff includes pastors, youth pastors, missionaries, biblical counselors, Bible/Christian college students, seminary students, and lay students of God’s Word.

    All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff. Our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann, is ultimately accountable for our content, and therefore maintains an active role in the review process. He possesses a Bachelor’s degree in Biblical Studies from Calvary University and a Master’s degree in Christian Theology from Calvary Theological Seminary (Kansas City, MO).

    May God richly bless you as you seek to study His Word and grow in your walk with Him! (Romans 11:36)

    “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:21-24

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

    John 15:26-27

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:8-12

    All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff. Our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann, is ultimately accountable for our content, and therefore maintains an active role in the review process. He possesses a Bachelor’s degree in Biblical Studies from Calvary University and a Master’s degree in Christian Theology from Calvary Theological Seminary (Kansas City, MO).

    Who is your ONE teacher, the Spirit of truth with and in you today or S. Michael Houdmann?

    Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary.

    Dr. Corey’s theological (the study of God) credentials are as credible as those of S. Michael Houdmann. There is a relational reason Dr. Corey is a “formerly fundie” and S. Michael Houdmann remains a proud evangelical who is theologically conservative. That relationship is with and in Jesus, the living Christ/Messiah, as his one, and only, sibling Instructor.

    If you saw to accept to be with and in the Spirit of truth today, as your only Teacher without pause and without end, you then would understand in your heart-soul-strength-mind of spirit (no longer just a vague image of God but truly of God as Their eternally aware and influential child in spirit) that any reciprocally shared carnal relationship between adults of the animal species mankind does not trespass against any part the sum of the law that God lives, with no beginning, no pause and no end, by (Matthew 7:12) and all that hangs on the law that God lives by (Matthew 22:37-40). God is spirit without beginning or end. The animal species Mankind (graced an image in the spirit of God) is carnal, each and all, with a certain beginning and an end.

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31

    You cannot speak the word of God boldly, which is not the Bible from which you can begin to learn this truth from, without being filled with the Holy Spirit as your only Teacher. When your spirit heart-soul-strength-mind is truly (and you will know) with and in the Spirit of truth, spoken of in your Bible, you will not ever need any human texts, seminaries or sermons to grow in the truth of eternal life without pause or end.

    We, all beloved little children of God, do not need or care for what you call is “A real Bible study. We are secure and progressing ahead in our relationship as one with and in God. Can you say the same? By your fruits you are not relational with and in the Spirit of truth, but are solely with and in “Christian, Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational” studies of God from mankind’s worldly carnal view.

    There is so much more Jesus actually has to say to you, really!

  • If the bible is not what it claims to be then it does not matter who has sex with whom. Morality is a concept that came from God not man. If there is no God there is no morality or laws for that matter. If not God then some man came up with laws. If that is the case why should we concern ourselves. What gave some man the right to bind us to any rules?

  • You are correct. Sinning is one thing but teaching others to sin is quite another.

  • See what happens when you try to understand the bible? You can’t. The act of protecting the stranger in your house has nothing to do with offering up anyone.

  • And smite those who judge others in your name.

  • Yet millions of others disagree with your assessment. Why is that?
    Is it dangerous to believe in God? Does it make your life worse? Does believing make you inferior to those who self-propose knowledge?

  • “They do not know the first thing about reading the Bible in the light of the 21st century.” Which means what please?
    If most preachers are “bigots, racists, misogynists, homophobes and xenophobes” then what are most abortionists, murderers and thieves?

  • No, pretty sure he meant Liberals and Progressives…

  • There are many on this site that believe it is ok to be crude and rude to those who offer a different opinion.

  • Based on his many posts I would say drugs are most likely involved.

  • I am curious why the site administrator(s) allow Bones to use the b-word like he does in his next slur?

  • Bones

    Men lusting after women AND men arent homosexual.

    Are you stupid or dishonest?

  • Bones

    Which some people are still taking.

  • Bones

    Hey liar….your group has been exposed for the manipulative liars they are.

    Here’s their leader calling for abortions to be done in public.

    https://youtu.be/Piny4Ur1EEA

    But I wouldnt expect more from a lying creature like yourself.

  • Bones

    Lol ergo please let my friends lie and slander others….

  • Bones

    Its amazing how people expressing their own human rights (eg we will no longer be humiliated) are seen as a threat to others.

    Its also convenient how Lot’s unacceptable behaviour is written off as “well thats the way they were back then” whereas some poor interpretation about gay sex (not rape of course) still stands.

  • Bones

    Lol Christians like you are a classic advertisement for atheism.

  • Bones

    Like Trump then?

  • Bones

    Lol you are incredibly dumb.

    Do gay people go around to your house threatening to RAPE your guests?

    Look who who has no idea wtf they’re writing about.

  • Bones

    Still hating gay people I see.

    It says more about lying actually.

    But you love that.

  • Bones

    Lol…..ergo “why doesnt everyone hate gay people like I do?”

  • Bones

    Yeah we dont need to be told what to believe.

  • Bones

    Nah.

    Your deluded wishful thinking isn’t fact.
    See how religion poisons the mind that it wants to see pain to those who disagree with them.

  • Bones

    Yeah well the bible says concubines were fine (only for men though)

    So your god seems to change his mind on morality a lot.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Bones…you must work at being obnoxious no one can be as rude, arrogant and self-delusional as you are without a lot of work. I hope at some point you get a life though an epiphany might be more to the point and it will take something of that nature to be of help.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    interesting hypothesis….perhaps the best I have seen thus far…..I feel sorry for someone that miserable and nasty

  • Ron McPherson

    Yeah, that’s another thing. Instead of the religiots being bothered over the mob’s desire to rape, it’s because they presumably wanted gay sex. I guess it’s not about the act of rape itself being bad, but rather about WHO they wanted to rape.

  • Herm

    Like Bob Shiloh then?

  • Herm

    Eva, the way you “interpret” the Bible, as is clearly in your traditional fundamentalist mind, is clearly against homosexual acts. God is not against consensual adult carnal relationships and neither is the living Messiah, my Lord, my only one instructor and my brother. What does carnal anything have to do with God, who is spirit? God is not ancient, no beginning and no end, but not ancient. God has no need to be appeased by any carnal act between reciprocally willing adults, God is spirit. God cares only about the attitude of those who wish to be Their children, by example this is the sum of the law all of God abide by for eternal life, in everything do to others as you would have others do to you. Do you want others to spread the news that God is against all Roman Catholic Irish Women who cast dispersion on others who they do not know because they clearly do not know to learn from, with and in God, only from their church of human tradition?

  • Matthew

    Wow.

    I´ll be taking a somewhat long ride on a train soon. Maybe I should ask your permission to turn what you just said into a Gospel tract? :-)

    Thanks again Phil.

    [Edited]

  • cipher
  • cipher

    Everything you say is asinine. You’re operating at the developmental level of a child. You really are too absurd to bother with. Blocked.

  • Thanks. Stay off my replies.

  • You will be slightly depressed when you see the results of the DNC lurch to the far Left in the soon coming mid-terms. #WalkAway
    Elections are about visions for a better future and plans to do that. Incessant and constant hatred of the current President will not win elections.

  • What were their detestable sins? Please advise us.

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 New International Version (NIV)
    49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

  • Ken Allen

    Cultural make up is not monolithic in any respect, and that
    includes areas of immorality along with righteousness. The biblical description
    of Sodom and Gomorrah is that of a culture that has many facets of immoral behavior.
    In this discussion, the facets that I am referring to involve sexual deviance.
    In this ancient culture, according to the two sources that I have cited, one
    deviance involves sin in heterosexual behavior and the other is homosexual
    behavior. The text of Philo’s demonstrates that this culture is involved in
    these two deviances. For some men in a culture to be involved in heterosexual
    sin and other men in homosexual sin is not an area of contradiction but is rather
    a demonstration of normalcy of cultural make up.

    Further support for the antiquity of the sin of Sodom being labeled as homosexual behavior is this:

    Aside from the numerous comments made by the early Church Fathers concerning Sodom’s sin as homosexuality (cf. Clement of Alexandria, Paed. iii.8; John Chrysostom, Stat. xix. 7; Augustine, Civ. xvi.30; Const. Ap. vii.2), Jewish authors also interpreted Sodom’s sin as sexual. The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha both deal with it (e.g. Sir 16:8; Wis 10:6-8; 19:14-17; 2 En 10:4; T. Levi 14:6; T. Benj. 9:1), as do Philo (Abr. 135-36; Spec. 3.37^12; Contempt. 59-62) and Josephus {Ant. 1.194—204; Ag. Ap. 2.199). Rabbinic literature also interpreted Sodom’s sin as deviant sexual actions. These include Gen. Rab. (XLI.7; L:7), and the commentaries on Gen 13:13 found in Tg. Ps.-J., Tg. Onq., and Tg. Neof.

    This citation is from a JETS article by Brian Neil Peterson. Peterson, Brian Neil. The Sin of Sodom Revisited: Reading Genesis 19 in Light of Torah, JETS 59/1 (2016): 17-31. The attribution of homosexual behavior to the sin of Sodom is not a recent interpretation, nor is it relegated to any one religious group.

  • Heh! You flatter me. Some of that might not be too bad as a tract, but I’d probably de-technicalize it a little.

  • vmelkon

    +Rob Shiloh:
    “See what happens when you try to understand the bible? You can’t.”

    ==The Bible is a pretty simple book. You don’t need to be a genius with a high IQ to understand it. It is of course possible to view the story from different directions and interpret the stories in different ways.

    “The act of protecting the stranger in your house has nothing to do with offering up anyone.”

    ==Lot was protecting the 2 guys that came to his house by offering his daughters to be raped by the mob. You should read it; starting from Genesis 19:4. All this is mentioned in there. In other words, the daughters don’t have much of a say in this. The father decides what strangers can do to them (gang rape). Women don’t have much rights in jewish society back then.

    Lot could have offered himself to be raped. Or perhaps, Lot could have used his ninja moves. Or perhaps, the jewish god could have protected him but instead, just watches the situation and is ok with Lot offering his daughters as mere “products”.

    Eventually, the 2 guys make the Sodom guys blind (Genesis 19:11). Apparently, these 2 guys have never heard of teleportation. They could have teleported themselves out of the city of Sodom.

  • The bible is not really a simple book. The proof of that is the millions upon millions of disagreements over the meaning of supposedly simple versus.

    The two guys are Angels and you should hope they never approach your door for the same reason. The story was a warning for future generations but today it is ridiculed; count yourself among those too ignorant to understand even the simplest verses.

  • The protection of strangers in your house was a societal norm and not to be violated. It is difficult today to understand why Lot would do that. But it will also be difficult for those in the future to understand why today we murder unborn babies as a form of birth control.

  • vmelkon

    +Bob Shiloh:
    “Is it dangerous to believe in God?”

    ==It depends on which god you believe. SOME GODS HELP YOU KILL PEOPLE:
    Deuteronomy 21:10
    10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

    SOME GODS ASK YOU TO KILL PEOPLE:
    Leviticus 20:13
    If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

    SOME GODS ASK YOU TO TORTURE AND ABUSE PEOPLE PHYSICALLY
    Quran 22:19
    Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water, melt their skin & bellies.

    SOME GODS ABUSE WOMEN. (This is a title from an article. The full article is very long)
    “Unorthodox:” A woman’s journey from repression to freedom”
    “Growing up, Deborah Feldman had to wear skirts that covered her ankles and high-necked………”

  • Servant Emmanuel

    MY My my!
    You should NOT discuss things you know nothing about,
    Let me tell you that if a “MAN” wants to humiliate another man, SEX doesn’t even come into our minds.
    There is no way in hell I can get a hard on to screw another man so that is a personal issue that you need to address!
    Plus you must have forgotten or have NEVER read the passage, that the whole reason why they came to Lot’s home was to have Sex with the strangers.
    Genesis 19:5
    What kind of perverted mother sucker are you?
    If you can get a hard on to have sex with a man, YOU”RE GAY! FACE IT!
    I do not want another men to touch me in no manner like that! You are the seed of the perverted mother’s that rape my people during slavery
    Because you are Gay, Perverted & evil. It was all about the men of the town saw fresh meat, Lot had to virgin daughter that had NOT known a man,
    which Lot offered to them instead. And they rejected them!
    That’s Gay! There is NO Way In Hell I would pass up a woman that was a virgin for a man?
    THE DEVIL IS A LIAR!
    You need to stay in your lane because you are out of your damn mind!
    PLUS
    I wouldn’t want to have sex behind someone else even if it was a woman, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
    U filthy scumbag’s, you who can take turns, that’s just gross?
    Hell has enlarged herself for people that think like you do & more! You need to repent & pray because I can tell you for a fact no bible reference or anything.
    You’re screwed up & in need of some serious help!

  • vmelkon

    I don’t find the Bible particularly complicated. I see it as a book that is entirely created by a primitive culture (in this case, the jewish culture).

    It just that sometimes there is a need for some people to reinterpret what it says.

    The disagreements are for various reasons. For example, one of the causes for disagreements is due to science. You have young earth creationists who say the Earth is 6000 to 10,000 years old and scientists are making fundamental mistakes or behaving unprofessionally. Another group accepts science and claims that the 6 day creation narrative happened in billions of years.

    You also have people who just don’t give a damn about the creation myth and flood myth and just say “they accept Jesus’s message of love”.

    I can understand all 3 points of view. It is difficult for them to reject their religion. Ultimately, religions (all of them) are about the human desire to not die, so humans believe that they have an undying soul or that they will be reincarnated into different forms.
    I suggest that such humans master their fears of dying. Why not accept death? After all, you have accepted that you are alive and are aware that there are risks with being alive.

    “The two guys are Angels and you should hope they never approach your door for the same reason. The story was a warning for future generations but today it is ridiculed; count yourself among those too ignorant to understand even the simplest verses.”

    ==I suggest that you master your fears before they master you.
    I am not really worried about these 2 guys. They can call me anytime. They can post a message here.

  • Well, that was deranged. And the caps do not help in this regard one bit.

  • The line between condescension and hate is thin at the best of times–separated usually only by pity–and the difference disappears when the person so acting is empowered by the society in which they live compared to those they condescend toward.

  • And then there are those, like you, Bob, whose opinions themselves are rife with moral corruption and hate.
    But heaven forbid that ever be called out. That would be just so rude!

  • Mr Kish

    God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah for many sins but the sins definitely include homosexuality.

  • Mr Kish

    Yes he does seem to have a lot of hatred in him and bigotry against those with sincerely held beliefs

  • Servant Emmanuel

    RiiiGHT! Which is why you are singling them out! Gotcha!

  • Servant Emmanuel

    Sorry I am NOT a christian, I am Hebrew!
    Never a good idea to assume!!!

  • That was, if anything, even less coherent. Take a breath, pause, use complete and grammatical sentences, and try to express why you are so worked-up in a manner that anyone not living inside your head might understand.

  • Wow! The bible was not created by the Jewish Culture. You missed that by a mile or two.
    Why then is the bible the most published book in history? A book written by a “primitive culture” could not have survived let alone multiplied as it has.
    Where did the human desire for immortality come from? If humans could extend their life why would they?

  • rationalobservations?

    There are many diverse and significantly different versions of bibles fabricated by men since the oldest extant bibles (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) were written by small teams of men toward the end of the 4th century and not long after the Roman religion they called “christianity” was first cobbled together from mostly pagan components and exclusively pagan feast days, festivals and the Sun-god (Zeus) day of worship.

    Morality is an entirely humanistic and humanitarian concept based upon the age old “Golden rule”. A concept that has been corrupted by various religions but that has survived as the human evolved instinct for altruism and the performance of selfless acts that protect the ongoing evolutionary survival of our very recently evolved species of ape.

    An indication of the secular nature of altruism may be the fact that the top ten most peaceful nations today are also the least religious nations in history.

    If religion poisons everything – education and fee secular democracy are proving to be the antidote to that vile poison.

    https://i0.wp.com/akosbalogh.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/14444761_1426658324028442_7289900052337451843_o.png
    https://criticofchristianity.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/320798_292559984099120_1613929294_n.jpg

  • Mr Kish

    Can I ask. Many Liberal Christians l claim the Torah never condemns same sex sexual relationships but my reading is it does and there is no argument. As a Hebrew can you confirm whether the conservative position saying same sex sexual relations and therefore same sex marriage is condemned in the Torah?

  • Mr Kish

    From reading some of his blogs I have to agree with you.

  • Mr Kish

    That is a strange argument

  • Mr Kish

    Or how about believing the Bible and the traditional interpretation earnestly.

  • A person’s sexuality is not something to be agreed or disagreed with unless it directly implicates issues of consent. And people wanting to live their lives without either other people severally or in the form of the state intruding to tell them they are wrong or bad for loving someone you disapprove of is even worse. That’s the condescension. It reeks of hate. If that condescending garbage is what allows you to sublimate your personal antipathy of homosexuality to the point where you feel free of hate, then you are an expert in self-deception, but it otherwise proves nothing. If you feel you ought to have say in other people’s sexual lives beyond the boundaries of consent, either you dehumanize them (and thus, it is deep down motivated by hate) or you have really, really bad boundary issues.

    I like most people, am fully in tune with my feelings. If I say I don’t hate, it’s because I don’t have those feelings.

    I’ll admit it, this made me chuckle. Are you an alien, or a lobotomy victim?

  • “rife with moral corruption and hate” Spoken like a true Liberal. Any opinion you don’t agree with is not only rejected it is attacked.

  • Mr Kish

    Yes his posts confirm your findings.

    Thanks

  • I’ve seen you insult others, so this seems to be common ground for you (and nothing I said warrented a response like that).

    See, that’s your opinion and all, but when I see a person busily trying to argue that they can disapprove of a group of people and have that disapproval echoed in law and social structure, all without hate in their hearts (or a serious psychological condition), I’m gonna call it out.

    Maybe you think it is unusual for a person not to feel hatred

    It’s not impossible, but it is deeply psychologically unhealthy. I would suggest at the least a person who aspires to be good hates that which is evil. Now, well-adjusted people try to sublimate that hate into a constructive disapproval of a motivating idea or belief rather than leaving it directed at the person thinking or holding it who caused the aversion to first manifest. With ideas and beliefs, this separation is difficult but usually achievable.

    But this leads to a confusion, because not everything that you are told to disapprove of is separable from the person who experiences it. Christians often try to cliche this into meaninglessness with “hate the sin not the sinner”. That leads directly to people like you, who believe that since some book told them to hate homosexuality, that it is totally OK to fool themselves into separating their feelings for the sexual orientation from the person having it, because the delusion that people can be separated from their sexuality is more comfortable than the likely truth that any book from several centuries ago regardless of its provenance is gonna have fairly crap advice for anything related to biology, psychology, and sexual health. Then you can go on supporting churches and politicians and social structures that do real harm to homosexual persons, comfortable in your belief that your behavior is not motivated by conscious hate.

    I never made that claim in my post.

    The overall topic was homosexuality, and in that context you said,

    “The problem is that the word ‘hate’ has been redefined by the political left to mean “if you disagree with me you hate me”, “if you don’t want society to be changed in a way that meets my personal desires / needs, you hate me”. When in reality, I don’t hate, I just simply ‘disagree’ with certain opinions.”

    [emphasis added]

    So, yeah, you definitely did. Or did you mean to apply your complaint to everything except the actual topic that was under discussion?

    And since you insulted me for no reason and clearly have no interest in respectful dialogue, I can see no further reason to converse with you.

    I have no cause to show respect to a person wallowing in condescension in order to justify the harms they abet because they claim not to feel hate as a motive. You can not respond if you wish, but I will not let your self-serving crap pass without challenge.

  • Nope, not a liberal, just a person who has seen quite enough of your opinions to know that your public ones, at the very least, are narrow and hateful.

    Not everyone who disagrees with you or thinks you’re an awful human being falls into one of the little boxes you’ve made in your head, easy categories to deflect all criticism. You can certainly try to squeeze me there if it makes you feel better, though. After all, you feeling comfortable is undoubtedly more important than any self-analysis you might possibly engage in. It’s all those scary liberals and their mean words and their not accepting your notions! That’s it!

  • vmelkon

    +Bob Shiloh:
    The initial portions of the Bible was created by the jews/jewish culture. Those parts are called the old testament by christians and I am assuming your already know this. Although, there are arguments that they borrowed from their neighboring cultures, which is normal for all humans. The new testament portion is probably created by an offshoot jewish sect and probably some of the later members were non jews so they desired to invite more gentiles (foreigners) into the religion. It was a merger religion (There is a specific term for this). There were other attempts at merger religions back then as well.
    I think a primitive culture’s book could survive just fine and become popular when it has the ingredients that people desire. It was developed during very difficult times (compared to the luxury we live in): They needed to know they are protected (insurance by a god). They need to know that they have enough food, no volcanoes erupting, no earth quakes, help from their god when they go to wars, their loved one aren’t rotting and being eaten by worms, that they are in a happier place, and so on. The Bible offers the old dream of a paradise.
    Coca-Cola is very successful as well. It has the ingredients in the right proportions. Probably the most important ingredient it has is glucose-fructose and a lot of other foods have it as well.
    This doesn’t mean that Coca-Cola is “true”. It just means that someone understands what the average human wants and he has engineered a product that fits him.
    I think that we are emotional machines. All animals are emotional machines. One key emotion is fear and pain. All (?) or most animals are afraid of loud noises, they run for their lives. They feel hunger, so they eat.
    It looks like all animals (including humans) are designed as survival machines.
    So, let me know what you think. I got to go.

  • Servant Emmanuel

    Leviticus 18 states

    22 ‘And do not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination.

    23 ‘And do not have intercourse with any beast, to defile yourself with it. And a woman does not stand before a beast to mate with it, it is a perversion.

    24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with all these, for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am driving out before you.

    25 ‘Thus the land became defiled, therefore I punished it for its crookedness, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.

    26 ‘But you, you shall guard My laws and My right-rulings, and not do any of these abominations, the native nor stranger who sojourns among you,

    27 because the men of the land who were before you have done all these abominations, and thus the land became defiled,

    28 ‘So let not the land vomit you out for defiling it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

    29 ‘For whoever does any of these abominations, those beings who do them shall be cut off from among their people.

    30 ‘And you shall guard My Charge, so as not to do any of these abominable practices which were done before you, so as not to defile yourselves by them. I am יהוה your Alahym

  • Servant Emmanuel

    Sorry to disappoint but there’s a world of differences from what we the True Hebrews of Yasharal follow and that which christianity, Islam, and Catholicism practice. It is a way of life for us, we can’t set it aside or put it down at will.
    We do not demand tithes, nor is anyone of us is better than the other. We reach and teach each other through the TRUE set apart scriptures of the Most High Yahuah, not the altered and incompleted KJV Catholic Version. We walk in love truth and humility, as per our example YAHUSHA!
    NO! I am not one of the so-called Hebrew Israelite’s that believe that they are better than every one else, with a little knowledge no humility or love for their fellow man.
    We’re not walking the same path of Yashar’al

  • Mr Kish

    Agreed

  • C_Alan_Nault

    It appears to be a societal norm that god approved of, because the Bible says Lot was a righteous man despite the fact that he offered his young virgin daughters up to be gangraped.

    “But it will also be difficult for those in the future to understand why today we murder unborn babies as a form of birth control.”

    The Bible has no problem with abortion.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Morality is a concept that came from God not man. ”

    Can you prove this claim? Step one is proving a god exists. Go ahead.

    “If there is no God there is no morality or laws for that matter.”

    Wrong. If there is no god there are no divinely ordained morality or laws.

    ” If not God then some man came up with laws. If that is the case why should we concern ourselves.”

    We should concern ourselves because of the people who believe the Bible & follow god’s laws according to what the Bible says.

    God’s law:

    – kill homosexuals
    – kill adulterers
    – kill your children if they are disobedient
    – kill people who worship a different god
    – kill people who worship no god
    – kill the population of an entire town if 1 person there worships another god
    – kill your wife if she was not a virgin on your wedding night
    – kill people who work on the sabbath day
    – slavery is OK

    Man’s laws:

    – don’t follow any of the laws listed above

    “What gave some man the right to bind us to any rules?”

    The society that imposes those rules.

  • The Torah was written by Moses who was a Levite. The tribe of Judah (Jews) have retained their identity while the other tribes have not. Most of the authors of the individual books have been identified. When you say become popular and merger religions and the bible is like Coca-Cola, I think you are being facetious.

  • Self-analysis is over rated.

  • The Golden Rule is a biblical principal not a human evolved concept. Without the books of the bible the Rule like other moral laws would be unknown.

  • So says Planned Parenthood. But the bible has much to say about abortion and it is not allowed.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “But the bible has much to say about abortion and it is not allowed.”

    Instead of merely making that claim, post the relevant passages.

  • Psalm 139:13-14 New International Version (NIV)
    13 For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
    14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.

    Jeremiah 1:5 New International Version (NIV)
    5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

  • rationalobservations?

    Versions of the golden rule thread through all human history and predate the 4th century Roman religion they called “Christianity” by many thousands of years.
    Humanitarianism is the basis of many otherwise self serving and corrupt institutions of human fabricated and fraudulent religion of which Christianity is one of the worst examples.
    The propaganda you recycle is debunked bunkum.

  • Mr Kish

    I agree Franklin Graham is a man of God. I am not sure why your post is being modded,

  • Mr Kish

    Troll central here. LOL

  • Nothing in human history predates the information in Genesis as it is the story of the man from the Garden to the Flood and after. It is the source of human history and predates the 4th century by 3000 years. if you have one source from before the Flood name it. You can’t because it doesn’t exist.

  • Step one is not proving there is a God. God does not need to prove Himself to anyone including you.
    What man ordained morality if not God. Name him? You can’t.
    There is no society without God. Tell us what was the first society if not those in Genesis? You can’t.
    As to your list, yes those were God’s Laws to run the government of His chosen people. Too bad man has chosen no to obey.

    Here is man’s law;
    -kill as many unborn babies in the womb as you can and proclaim it is ok because man said so.
    -enslave people in totalitarian societies because it is good for them.
    -promote drugs and lawlessness because it is your right as a person to do whatever you want.

  • rationalobservations?

    As a wacko YEC you are oblivious to the mountain of evidence of human civilisations existent more than 10,000 years ago, human remains and human art and artifacts dated to over 30,000 years ago and 4,000,000,000 years of evolving life on Earth within a 13,820,000,000 year old universe.Your garbage book is full of myths legends lies and debunked bunkum that only the profoundly ignorant and childishly gullible are taken in by.
    You have my sympathy but deserve no respect.
    You should be ashamed of yourself.

  • Ron McPherson

    “As to your list, yes those were God’s Laws to run the government of His chosen people. Too bad man has chosen no to obey.“

    Wait, so you think it’s a good thing to kill gays, adulterers, disobedient children, atheists, women who aren’t virgins on their wedding night, and people who work on Saturdays? That was the list.

  • Servant Emmanuel

    If you believe anything from the Talmud, which is the Oral law aka Man’s law, you’ve already been deceived. The Talmud is like the Roman Catholic church that claims to be god on earth,,,, Deranged and of No consequence.
    Unless you are of those that believe that your life and the world is a big cosmic accident and that you are a decendant of apes.
    You are an agent of some kind which is why your name is Bones & you have a picture of Albert as your profile pic, which means no one should believe anything you say because you are as our president says fake news.
    There’s no need to say anything for I will not reply to a figment of someone’s imagination again!

  • Dennis Lurvey

    God is just a character in an old book, no more than that. The stories are just stories. God talks as a snake, a burning bush, a storm cloud, a skygod, a stormgod. God kills 158 times in the bible and orders more deaths than that. God commands the slaughter of thousands but allows the virgins to be kept as the spoils of war. Why wouldn’t the biblical writers, with only wine to drink, want raping virgins to be godly.

    Neither Abraham, Moses, or David can be proven outside the bible text. Those stories did not happen if the main characters didn’t actually exist. There were kings that did live, had armies, built cities, and there is a large body of proof for those outside the bible. Omri is one. Jericho was not occupied during the time the bible story was supposed to have happened and never had walls to bring down with trumpets. Nothing happened that cannot be found in the dirt and dated to the time of story.

    They think they know where sodom was but have not found it to date. They have found remnants of old buildings and walls but they can’t say it was Sodom or anywhere else. But as soon as god turned lot’s wife to salt that story lost is credibility. From the digs they have found statues and frescos of people having sex of all kinds all over the roman empire. Age and gender had no importance back then. Men having sex was common and legal, expected, so any story saying otherwise is just old people trying to control the young, just because they can.

  • vmelkon

    How is it known that Moses wrote the Torah?

    “Most of the authors of the individual books have been identified.”

    ==How were they identified?

    Christianity is a merger religion according to Dr Richard Carrier. That concept has been expressed from various sources from what I have seen. The idea of hell being hot with flames, a place of torment and torture apparently came from the Greek notion of an underworld.

    Even these days, you can meet some people who want to merge religions. Some people have expressed to me that they think all religions come from the same god. I asked one such person why he thinks a singular god creates various religions across the planet. His response was that the god tailors each religion to each culture. It is a pretty creative response.

    I use Coca-Cola as an example. If you want a successful product, you need to offer something that the people want. In the case of Judaism, they offer safety and protection from the jewish god, that god helps your army when you go to war, the concept of a soul.

    In the case of christianity and islam, they also have those same notions plus they add a motivator which is hell. They are using fear to stop people from leaving. I have heard numerous times Pascal’s wager without the christian knowing what Pascal’s wager is.

    Even you had a hint of fear when you wrote:
    “The two guys are Angels and you should hope they never approach your door for the same reason. The story was a warning for future generations but today it is ridiculed; count yourself among those too ignorant to understand even the simplest verses.”

    I wrote a response to that but you seem to have skipped over it.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Try again. None of the verses you posted say anything about abortion not being allowed.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Step one is not proving there is a God. God does not need to prove Himself to anyone including you”

    Since I never said god has to prove himself ( or herself or itself) to me, you are presenting a clumsy straw man argument.

    If a person is going to claim a god exists & wants others to accept the claim as valid they must present evidence that a god exists.

    To present evidence to prove a god exists, they first must define what they mean by god.

    “What man ordained morality if not God. Name him? You can’t.”

    Since I never made that claim you are presenting a clumsy straw man argument.

    In your clumsy attempt to deflect the conversation, you included the claim that god ordained morality.

    Prove it. But first tell me which god you are referring to.

    If it is the god of the Bible, the Bible says these are some of that god’s moral laws:

    – kill homosexuals
    – kill adulterers
    – kill your children if they are disobedient
    – kill people who worship a different god
    – kill people who worship no god
    – kill the population of an entire town if 1 person there worships another god
    – kill your wife if she was not a virgin on your wedding night
    – kill people who work on the sabbath day
    – slavery is OK

    Do you think those are moral actions?

    “Too bad man has chosen no to obey.”

    So you think those are moral laws?

  • First of all life did not evolve. Yes the universe is 13 billion years old. The dating of your art and artifacts is hardly accurate. In fact your reply is largely garbage itself but for the sake of benevolence I will add there are approx. 2 Billion Christians who believe in the Bible. What makes a few self-important atheists know better – Nothing!

  • The punishment for certain sins at that time was death. It had the intended effect off dissuading people to follow suit.

  • Yes you did.
    I don’t need you to believe in God. There are two billion other Christians who do.
    I never said you did I ask you a simple question about morality.
    Your really clumsy demand is illogical. I cannot prove that God ordained morality because you don’t believe in God.
    If you were alive then rather than now you would be destroyed for several reasons in that list wouldn’t you?

  • I can’t help it if you can’t reason.
    Murder is not allowed even by Progressives.
    Killing a baby in the womb is murder.

  • I’m sorry but you respond as a parody. I will respond but no more as I do not believe you are sincere.
    Mosaic authorship is the Jewish and Christian tradition that Moses was the author of the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament.
    66 books in the KJV – 66 different answers.
    Dr Richard Carrier is a twice married liberal atheist educated at Berkeley; it is impossible to have a worse pedigree. His perspective on religion is skewed and so are his ideas.
    Missed your response to the Angels.

  • Ron McPherson

    So the fear of death was the motivation for a son to obey his parents?

  • Yes. Why do you have a problem with that concept?
    Psalm 111:10 New International Version
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

  • Ron McPherson

    Uh, that verse has nothing to do with children fearing their parents will kill them unless they’re obedient.

  • Your post is interesting to me. Please see if you can defend it a bit:

    1. That old book is the most published book in the world! This means that name of God and His Words will never be removed despite all attempts. Did you ever wonder why that is and why most people don’t think like you do? Please explain with a credible reason why two billion Christians are wrong and atheists are right,
    “Although it is impossible to obtain exact figures, there is little doubt that the Bible is the worlds best-selling and most widely distributed book. A survey by the Bible Society concluded that around 2.5 billion copies were printed between 1815 and 1975, but more recent estimates put the number at more than 5 billion.” God also destroyed the First Age of Man for lawlessness – except for eight people.

    2. Your assertion about the bible Patriarchs is also wrong. Moses and David are recorder in non-biblical history. Here is one example. Please explain what the inscrition “the House of David” refers to?
    “As Tel Aviv University archaeologist Israel Finkelstein noted, “Biblical nihilism collapsed overnight with the discovery of the David inscription” (Jeffery L. Sheler, “Is the Bible True?: Extraordinary Insights from Archaeology and History,” U.S. News and World Report, Oct. 25, 1999, pp. 50-52, 56).”

  • Dennis Lurvey

    the david inscription dates from 850bc, not the time of david 1000bc. it could have been the beginning of the myth of david. It collapsed but it didn’t stay collapsed.

    Omri actually did exist and built up cities, had an army, and had the population to support it. There is evidence all over the place for Omri, but nothing from the time of david about david.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhiABi6vw3A

    still nothing on abraham or moses outside the bible.
    “The Bible Unearthed” by Finkelstein. “the failed search for the historical Abraham”.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    I can’t help it if you do not understand the definitions of words.

    A legally obtained abortion by definition is not murder.

    This does not address the issue of whether it is right or wrong, just that it isn’t murder.

    You again forgot to present a Bible passage that says anything about abortion being wrong.

    On the other hand, I did find these Bible passages that endorse abortion:

    Hosea 9:14 Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

    Hosea 13:16 …..their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

    2 Kings 15:16 …..and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.

    Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    ” I cannot prove that God ordained morality because you don’t believe in God.”

    You could solve this issue by presenting evidence that god exists. Go ahead.

    “If you were alive then rather than now you would be destroyed for several reasons in that list wouldn’t you?”

    If so, does that make them moral? Do you do any work on the sabbath day? If so, you would be destroyed.

    If you are not killing people that work the sabbath, adulterers, homosexuals, etc you are not doing what ( according to the bible) god commands.

    How many slaves do you own? Bible says owning humans as your slaves is OK.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “The punishment for certain sins at that time was death. It had the intended effect off dissuading people to follow suit.”

    How do you feel about slavery ( owning other human beings as your property)? Bible says it is OK.

  • Sorry C but there is no use continuing a dialog when you refer to the bible. You don’t believe in God or the bible.
    My opinion about historical events is not relevant. What rational person believes in slavery? This country fought a war to end it and several hundred thousand people died in that war. Was that ok with you?

  • C, you want to argue atheism and I have no interest in atheism.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “there is no use continuing a dialog when you refer to the bible. You don’t believe in God or the bible.”

    You could end that issue by presenting evidence for god. Do you have any?

    Regardless, I can point out the passages in the Bible that demonstrate that the Bible is not a good source for moral guidance and ask the people that DO believe the Bible to explain the passages.

    BTW belief in a god doesn’t require belief in the Bible. Many religions exist that believe in deities but don’t accept the Bible as holy or sacred.

    “What rational person believes in slavery?”

    According to the Bible, god condones slavery. That being the fact, when taking your question “What rational person believes in slavery?” and applying it to what the bible says, you are left with limited options.

    1) the god of the Bible is not rational
    2) the Bible is wrong about what god said about slavery
    3) god exists but the Bible has it all wrong
    3) god does not exist &the Bible is a collection of myths and fables

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Atheism is my current position. I am prepared to abandon it when I see evidence for a god.

    The only argument involved is me asking you for evidence for god & you providing none.

    Perhaps you aren’t very familiar with the Bible… but if you believe it it says you are supposed to explain to any who ask why you believe.

    1 Peter 3:15 But regard the Lord, the Christ, as holy in your hearts. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that is in you.

    So, why do you believe?

  • Ask and answered many times. Belief in God requires faith not proof. John 20:29 New International Version.
    Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

  • “According to the Bible, god condones slavery” – cites please…

  • C_Alan_Nault

    If faith is your reason for believing, then a person who believes leprechauns or pixies exist because they have faith they exist has a belief that is as valid as your belief in god.

    Faith is not a reason to believe. Faith is the answer you give when you do not have a good reason to believe.

  • apoxbeonyou

    I haven’t visited this blog in a long time and now I remember why. It’s rife with people using their version of Christianity to oppress others. I don’t miss them.

    Ben, keep it up. You are a calm in the storm. Sorry I missed meeting you at Wild Goose this year.

  • otrotierra

    Hope you return. You might also appreciate Dr. Warren Throckmorton’s blog. He’s the one recently booted by Patheos Evangelical for reporting facts about seriel abusers like Evangelical Mark Driscoll. And you might also like Sojourners, though I wonder if you might have visited some time ago.

  • rationalobservations?

    Of course life evolved and continues to evolve.
    Your moronic garbage bunkum remains debunked.

  • Thanks for that response. I needed a good laugh this afternoon and you provided it.

  • vmelkon

    No, I am sincere. I use Coca-Cola as an example to get a point across but it looks like you did not understand it since you don’t see your religion as an enterprise that offers a product that you desire. Perhaps you see Jesus and the rest of them as honest people who want to help you out and you trust them.

    Personally, I think they were not dishonest people. They were just deluded but what they have produced is a product that matches up with the human psyche.

    There is no evidence that Moses wrote the Torah. I think it is assumed that Moses wrote them since jews place a high value on him. It is more likely a collaborative effort over multiple generations and probably some of the myths such as the creation story and flood myth are borrowed from nearby cultures.
    The New testament is also anonymous. Some pope in the 4th or 5th century decided to stamp “Matthew”, “Mark”, “Luke”, “John”. I have seen the originals. They are on degraded papyrus or something and there is no signature. They are written in Koin Greek.

    It doesn’t matter if Dr Richard Carrier is an atheist or how many times he is married. He makes excellent points. You just dismiss him because you place atheists in a separate box and that’s a shame. It is crystal clear that christianity is a merger religion. He also makes arguments that Jesus is a mythical character like Hercules is and like Gabriel is to Mohammed, but I think there was actually a Jesus character. There is some evidence that christianity is older than the 1st century. As usual, it takes a lot of time for the followers to finally write down something and what they write is conflicting and they split off and open separate churches. Already, by the 2nd century, it is clear that christians were arguing with each other.

    “Missed your response to the Angels.”

    ==OK, well, like I said, try to deal with your fears. Master your fears instead of letting them master you. You won’t need any promises from a jewish dead guy after that.

  • Thank you…

  • So your doubt includes conspiracy theories from 1000 BC? It is close enough for me.

  • rationalobservations?

    You once again prove that ignorance is bliss.
    Laugh fool, laugh.
    Meanwhile your ridiculous nonsense remains too stupid to be funny.

  • Rationale thought requires a clear mind – yours is cluttered. Look at your comments:
    1.If religion poisons everything – education and fee secular democracy are proving to be the antidote to that vile poison.
    2.The propaganda you recycle is debunked bunkum.
    3.You have my sympathy but deserve no respect.
    4.Your moronic garbage bunkum remains debunked.
    5.Meanwhile your ridiculous nonsense remains too stupid to be funny.

    Are you related to “Bones?”

  • “A legally obtained abortion by definition is not murder.”
    What has this to do with the bible and killing a fetus?
    The bible is closed to your mind because you are not called at this time.

  • rationalobservations?

    Hahahohohehe, Bob.
    Really?

    But thanks for reminding others of the things that confused and confounded you and to which you have no answers.

  • Dennis Lurvey

    The link i sent is a documentary on the case for a historical david. If david were historical there would be rins of a large population, armies, large cities with govt buildings, food sources, it has to have the infrastructure to exist. It doesn’t exist for david as it does for Omri. Life expectancy was about 50 years then, david would have died about 980 BC.

    the video makes the case very well.

  • Thanks. Perhaps. I will review the video at some point but doubt it is well accepted correct or not.
    However, assuming David died at 50 is a big red flag.

  • vmelkon

    That’s called a “True scotsman fallacy”.
    Some Christians are just having problems with their conscious. They recognize homosexuals as human beings and want to give them some respect, so these christians are doing their best to fit in their view with their already existing view (the bible is true).
    Other christians, those who don’t care about homosexuals and care more about themselves and their desire to reach heaven (space), don’t have a problem with trashing gays.
    Come join the dark side: atheism. You won’t have to fear hell, vengeance from a god that has no evidence behind it.
    The bad news is that death has evidence behind it. Sorry, I can’t make you live forever buddy!

  • Herm

    Say Widuran, how do you define “sin” and by what authority?

    One more question, could you tell me what makes a “fake” Christian fake?

    … and one last question, is every prophesying Christian a disciple of the one Instructor, with and in them?

  • Herm

    “… the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”

    Bob, you have not accepted the Spirit of truth, as your only one Teacher, because you have neither seen him or do you “know” him. That’s belief in God that allows all who will live in the Spirit, worship in the Spirit, to love the Lord their God (plural) with all their heart, with all their soul, with all their strength, with all their mind. If you had the Guide with and in you, you would find such is said precisely in your Bible.

  • Herm

    The Spirit of truth, the one Teacher, now made available to all mankind, predates all information as was understood by mankind when Genesis was written based purely on hearsay. God has no beginning and has no end. The dust that makes up the image of mankind will return to the universe from whence it came. The Spirit of truth, with and in me, is my “one source“. Who is yours?

  • Herm

    How many members of Jesus’ religion did it take to crucify him? What made a few self-important disciples of Christ, and their brother in God, know better than the religious authorities of Jesus time on earth?

    Bod, repent from your self-important fake news beliefs so that you responsibly make your heart and mind empty for the Holy Spirit in your midst.

  • JRene

    So, you’re in this group? Just curious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

  • Ron McPherson

    “Fake Christians are those who claim they are Christian but going against the Bibles core teachings“

    But see, everybody has their own subjective ideas about what the “core teachings” are, so “fake Christian” usually means those people who don’t place a premium on the ones I do.

    Between the Old and New Testaments, there are roughly 1663 commandments and/or instructions. Which of those should God’s people “obey” beyond Love God and neighbor per Jesus in Matt 22:36-40? And which of those commandments were people to obey before the Bible was even assembled?

  • Herm

    In your Bible, the New Testament, before the New Testament was written as part of the Bible:

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31

    How were “they” able to speak the word of God boldly without a Bible?

    In your Bible, quoted from the mouth of the Messiah:

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12

    … and

    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:36-40

    Do you have another definition for “sin” than “an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law“?

    If not, how do you explain any relationship between reciprocally consensual carnal adults, who are “others” not like you, as immoral to God under both the sum of the law and all that the law hangs on, according to the Christ, the one Instructor for Jesus’ sisters and brothers born of Man now daughters and sons of the very same Father of God (who is spirit and not carnal) as is Jesus?

    Pointing to his disciples [students], he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Matthew 12:49-50

    “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:8-12

    You told me how you define sin, but you have not answered by whose instructions do you claim the self exalted authority to speak the word of God boldly, surely not the one Instructor of God with all authority in heaven and on earth today, Matthew 28:18.

    By your fruit you do not see to know the Spirit of truth and you do not recognize to accept Jesus’ instructions with and in you today.

    From your bible:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”John 14:15-21

    Does this make any sense to you?

  • Dennis Lurvey

    biblical archeologists are of two main types. minimalists who believe nothing is true unless you can find evidence for it in the dirt, and maximalists who believe the whole bible is true unless you can disprove it. and then there are people who just believe it and can’t be swayed by anything. all of those are in the video. eventually you have to trust someone.

    Finkelstein says davids name is found twice but centuries later. so now they want to find the remnants of the buildings described in the bible, where did he house 700 wives and 300 concubines? “no evidence for David’s conquests or for his empire. in the valleys canaanite culture went on uninterrupted. in the highlands continuation of the Iron I settlement system.” in other words such an empire as described in the bible would have need 100’s of 1000’s of people, buildings etc, and it’s not there. “no sign of monumental architecture or important city Jerusalem. no sign of grand scale of building activity at megido, hazor, and gezar in the north. canaanite culture continued.” (and it would not have if the stories were true).

  • We’ve had this conversation before…

  • And we’ve had this conversation as well also…

  • We’ve also had this conversation before. Why would I take advice from you? Imagine asking someone to repent for watching a particular news program; only on this blog full of fake truths and blasphemous ideas.

  • Herm

    I am not asking you to take my advice.

    Greek Strong’s Number: 3340
    Greek Word: μετανοέω
    Transliteration: metanoeō
    Phonetic Pronunciation:met-an-o-eh’-o
    Root: from and
    Cross Reference: TDNT – 4:975,636
    Part of Speech: v
    Vine’s Words: Repent, Repentance

    English Words used in KJV:
    repent 34
    [Total Count: 34]

    from (meta) and (noieo); to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (moral feel compunction) :- repent.
    Strong’s Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

    I am very much advising you to reconsider your judgments if you ever truly wish to live with and in Jesus and you truly wish to speak the true word of God boldly solely according to the Spirit of truth. The Advocate in your midst is not the Bible which only represents a portions of the trials, tribulations and falsehoods permeating the relationship between mankind and God. Mankind has never been knowledgeable enough to have fallen from any place in God’s heart, from God’s love, from God’s grace. Jesus does not condone, nor will ever instruct any of his students in, how you portray them as vengeful, vindictive and so much less than any loving family of Man.

    What is more fake and blasphemous to the Spirit of truth, Jesus spoke of in your Bible, than to deny his ability to be the complete truth to any who see him, who know him with and in them, and is the one Teacher for all of the Messiah’s sibling disciples (students)?

    From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

    Matthew 4:17

    You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:22-24

    Bob, you worship what you do not know. Reconsider who you are willing to accept the truth from. God is spirit (the image graced mankind, male and female), and their worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth. You are worshiping a god you only know from the study of God (theologies of mankind). You are not worshiping God with and in the Spirit of truth. The Bible you worship as God is not the Spirit of truth.

    Yes, we have had this conversation before and you never have mentioned once that you know the Spirit of truth with and in you as your one Teacher. You have never claimed Jesus is with and in you as your brother and one Instructor. You have never claimed our Father, who is spirit in heaven, is your one Father. I am with and in the Spirit of truth as my one Teacher, Jesus, the Messiah, is my brother who Instructs, adventures and shares with me in all things, and our Father is our one Father who is in heaven.

    I love you and beseech you to reconsider your ways of the world, blind to the Spirit of truth in their midst, and join in relationship with the divine family of God as their child. The cross you pick up will be so much lighter than continuing to defensively bear the burden of having to figure out, defend and judge for others all of eternity all by yourself founded on only what mankind can understand today. Really!

  • Ron McPherson

    Clear on which teachings?

  • Herm

    That is worth no more than a wagon load of bullshit. Did you read nothing of what is in your bible that I shared with you? You spout human doctrine not at all from the Spirit of truth nor resembling anything from Jesus’ quotes in your Bible. God lives eternally by, with and in the law of all life. God is not some spiteful dictating volcano god threatening to destroy your crops and village if you don’t sacrifice your virgin daughter into his crater. God is family. God is spirit. God does not have to propagate to sustain their species as does mankind. God is not made up of dust that will surely return to the universe from whence it came, mankind is.

    The Spirit of truth is with and in me, today, without pause, without end.

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27

    I am a disciple of Christ who is saved from the distortions and lies of mankind only because I have seen to accept the Holy Spirit as my one Teacher, with and in me at all times for the remainder of eternity. The Messiah did not save me from the cross but insists that I carry my own just for you. You make equally as much sense as did Caiaphas who chose, base on perfectly good church theology, to crucify the Son of Man/Son of God in God’s name. Caiaphas did not recognize the one appearing as a dove in Jesus either.

    So, does this make any more sense to you? If it does not please show me, from Jesus’ words quoted in your Bible, where I am wrong, please.

  • Herm

    God is under the law of in everything do to others as they would have others do to them. God accepts to live by all that all the law and prophets hang on. Children of God are continually taught how to live under the law of spirit.

  • “Reconsider who you are willing to accept the truth from” You? I have already told you no many times.
    “I am with and in the Spirit of truth as my one Teacher, Jesus, the Messiah, is my brother who Instructs, adventures and shares with me in all things, and our Father is our one Father who is in heaven.” So if Jesus is your brother that is good for you; to us he is our Savior.
    “I love you and beseech you to reconsider your ways of the world, blind to the Spirit of truth in their midst” I have told you several times your ideas come from the Evil One not the Spirit of Truth.

  • ” God is not against consensual adult carnal relationships and neither is the living Messiah, my Lord, my only one instructor and my brother.” “God cares only about the attitude of those who wish to be Their children” Ok. Their attitude is lawlessness. Does that disqualify them?

  • Herm

    to us he is our Savior.” … from what?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “A legally obtained abortion by definition is not murder.”
    What has this to do with the bible and killing a fetus? ”

    It has everything to do with pointing out that your statement

    “Killing a baby in the womb is murder.”

    is factually incorrect when the abortion is performed where abortion is legal.

    “The bible is closed to your mind because you are not called at this time.”

    So if I die now & have not found Jesus it is god’s fault because I wasn’t called.

  • Herm

    In everything do to all others as you would have all others do to you is the entire sum of the law all of God lives by eternally and teaches all their children.

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Is what all the law and all the emissaries sent by God hang on.

    By that criteria you, and Eva, do not appear to abide by the law. Judge not lest you be judged.

  • From sin that separated us from the Father.

  • 1. No it is not the entire sum of all law. It is a comment you just made off the top.
    2. Yes. You are quoting the bible. Why? You do not accept the bible.
    3. How diplomatic.

  • Herm

    I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:18-21

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31

    Bob, the Father has never removed his grace from mankind for being ignorant rebellious children. What truly loving parent does, even of mankind?

    Sin is separating yourself from the law that God lives by and teaches.

    Sin is like Caiaphas, the leading authority figure for God’s chosen people. Sin is like any who worship a book while ignoring the Teacher in their midst. You act no more like God’s child than a fundamentalist, doctrinal, and theological Jew, Muslim or Christian. You are separate from the Spirit of truth offered by the Father to you. By your stubborn soldering defense of your self exalted judgments, determined by how you read to interpret a book, you remain separate from the Father and crucify God’s children in God’s name.

    The Spirit of truth is real and available to even you, a fundamentalist, doctrinal, and theological Christian, Muslim and Jew.

  • Herm

    1. “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.“Matthew 7:12. It is the entire sum of the law according to Jesus and many more throughout the history of Man who have been touched by the Spirit of truth.
    2. It is you who does not accept that all that the law and prophets hang on does not in any way include homosexuality between reciprocally agreeing adults. It is you who cannot quote anything from the mouth of Jesus that disagrees with that.
    3.

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

    Matthew 23:13

  • Servant Emmanuel

    Oh No!
    I am a Hebrew who knows the truth, I am NOT an Israelite seeing as the name was given recently to our home by gentiles. Plus I read & pray not just read & assume I’m superior as they do. Humility & love must be in your heart to even begin to walk in the Father’s truth, which I do NOT see in the Israelite nation so again….NO! I am NOT one of them!!!

  • Ron McPherson

    You earlier indicated that “Fake Christians are those who claim they are Christian but going against the Bibles core teachings.” Now you’re saying “All the teaching.” You seem to be saying two different things. Are you now saying that “fake Christians” are those who go against “all” the Bible’s teachings rather than just the Bible’s “core” teachings? And if just “core” teachings, my question is: what ARE those core teachings?

  • Ron McPherson

    That’s what I mean by subjective. Each tribe has their own set of core doctrine, which is why I become highly suspicious when one uses terms like “fake Christians” to characterize those who believe differently. Some of those “core doctrines” are anything but “clear” as evidenced by early Christian councils debating over them for centuries.

  • Ron McPherson

    “There are orthodox beliefs which all Christians should believe. Here is a good list from the evangelical alliance.
    If a Christian does not believe in the statements below then they are not Christian or fake Christians if they process as such“

    Well, the “evangelical alliance” does not get to decide who the “fake Christians” are lol. Jesus did not define his authentic followers under those terms. Sorry, He just didn’t. Again, a “fake Christian” typically means somebody who believes differently than I do, which is subjective, tribal, and divisive. Man parses together from multiple biblical writings what he believes to be core doctrines and, voila, this is what a real Christian is supposed to look like.

    For instance, holding a Trinitarian doctrine does not distinguish one way or another who the genuine Christians are, at least if the Bible itself is your basis. One may believe such a view best captures the essence of God, but none of us have the authority to declare that one who believes otherwise is a fake. Neither does not believing in sola scriptura make one a fake Christian. The Bible never even makes that claim upon itself.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’m not arguing with God, unless you fashion yourself as God. You literally referenced nothing in those verses that disputed anything I wrote LOL!!

  • Ron McPherson

    Nope, sorry, that won’t work. The issue is who gets to determine which doctrines should be adopted as a belief system. If you think those sets of doctrines you listed define authentic Christianity, that’s fine. Just know that somebody can assert a different set and claim if you believe otherwise then that makes you a fake Christian, then trot out Paul’s words about false doctrines while claiming you are arguing with God lol. That’s what’s so funny, or sad really, when someone plays the fake Christian card.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Jesus was a fundamentalist”

    Um….

  • Herm

    I am well versed in the Bible, including all original languages in which it was written, so I can’t quite accept your assessment as written. The fact was Caiaphas knew his bible better than Jesus, as he is quoted to have said. Do you know the Spirit of truth with and in you without pause and without end eternally? Are you even aware of the spirit in your midst? If you do and are in what way does the Bible serve you that he cannot?

    Please, tell me how and what you read in these quotes from the mouth of the Messiah, please:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    Please remember, from your proud acquaintance with the Bible, that Jesus, the Christ, was the heretic and Caiaphas was the orthodox scripture authority.

    Knowing your Bible, as well as you claim, “show me, from Jesus’ words [quoted in your Bible] where I am wrong, please.

  • Ron McPherson

    no you haven’t

  • Ron McPherson

    That verse says nothing about Jesus being a fundamentalist. He was literally killed by the religious power structure for being radical. He absolutely positively did not teach rigid black and white Torah obedience, and instead stressed the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it. His enemies were the fundamentalists of his day. They taught the scriptures in a black and white fashion and Jesus repeatedly rebuked them for it. People can claim certain things about Jesus, but claiming he was a fundamentalist of his day is certainly not a valid one.

  • Herm

    Did that make you feel better? If Jesus, the Christ, is the son of God, are his sisters and brothers (his students) with and in the Spirit of truth today, children of God? Do you worship GOD only in the Spirit with no possible needs for rote creeds, doctrines and theologies?

    The law, as expressed by Jesus, is what exists for all spirit to live within and by. The law of gravity serves mankind to keep them temporaly well grounded. The law summed up with in everything do to others as you would have others do to you keeps all of God eternally well spirited.

  • Herm

    Jesus Christ proves himself for those who are with and in him. Where is your Bible quotes?

  • Ron McPherson

    It always strikes me as odd when fundamentalists get all defensive when Jesus is quoted to them

  • Herm

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
    “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
    “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
    “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

    Matthew 23:13-39

    Those of us who come in the name of the Lord, sibling students of Jesus, carry our crosses, not our judgments of others. Caiaphas, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were fundamentalists who served to crucify the Son of Man/Son of God in the name of God.

  • Ron McPherson

    Ok

  • Ron McPherson
  • Herm

    Tell me how and what you read in these quotes from the mouth of the Messiah, please:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    … and then explain he who appeared as a dove and remained.

    Are accepted students of the Messiah, with and in him, children of the Father as is Jesus the Christ?

    Bible verses quoting Christ, please.

  • vmelkon

    How do you know that the Talmud is man’s law and not god’s law?
    Which president says that this is fake news? Why should we care what a president says?

  • Herm

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:17-20

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:37-40

    Did you notice that both commands work both on earth (which is temporal carnal) and in heaven (which is eternal spirit). Life eternal depends on God’s adherence to these commands. These aren’t house rules laid arbitrarily down by your parents. These are rules that life depends on, especially for God who loves life together, learning together, sharing together, and adventuring together. What do you think God plans on doing for an eternity? …. playing a harp on a cloud? … on bended knee singing praises to the Father? Oh, you blind guide!

  • vmelkon

    That’s not a Christian since like you said, people in other religions can do those things. I am an atheist and you just described me.
    If you are a christian, then you are basically jewish. You are in a offshoot jewish sect, which is a merger religion (mixed Judaism, roman religion, greek religion, mythraism, egytpain religion, Babylonian religion). You either think jesus is the son of the jewish god or is that god. You either think the Genesis creation and flood story are real or made up to teach a lesson.

  • Herm

    Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

    Matthew 7:1-6

    “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

    Matthew 26:52-56

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Matthew 26:65-68

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27

    Students under the tutelage of the Messiah do not save others from the fundamentalist teachers of the law, in this world, by judgmentally telling them to repent from their destructive ways or they are going to hell, as did Caiaphas judge Jesus. We teach the “Good News” that in their midst is a Teacher who can guide them into all truth for eternity. We teach them that God, a plurality of awareness and influence with no beginning and no end, loves them just as they are.

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
    Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
    Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
    Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    Matthew 5:3-12

    The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:11-12

    Why do you so exalt yourself?

    My Father is my servant, for I am but a little child who is ignorant, weak, and incapable of protecting myself from evil. My Father would love to be your Father if only you would choose to be honest with yourself in all humility.

  • Herm

    The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

    Galatians 3:12

    On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
    He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,”
    Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    Luke 10:25-28

    Widuran, you tell me how your saying, “The fake Christians still arguing sin is not a sin” is within the law that children of God will live by?

    I have continually asked for quotes directly from Jesus and you refuse. Is your one Teacher, who is guiding you into all truth, the Spirit of truth or your orthodox carnal church doctrine and theology?

  • Ron McPherson

    Another thing. It’s like every time you quote Jesus to a fundamentalist they end up going straight to Paul

  • Herm

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
    Matthew 3:16-17 (NIV2011)

    Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
    Mark 1:10-11 (NIV2011)

    When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
    Luke 3:21-22 (NIV2011)

    Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”
    John 1:32-34 (NIV2011)

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
    Matthew 28:18-20 (NIV2011)

    You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
    John 4:22-24 (NIV2011)

    At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
    Revelation 19:10 (NIV2011)

    “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
    John 15:26-27 (NIV2011)

    According to your Bible quotes directly from the mouth of the Messiah, God is a plurality of spirit awareness and influence made up, at minimum, by the Father, the Christ, and all of the children of God on earth and in heaven. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, the Advocate, the Teacher is with and in all who are of God. God is one bound in all love for the Lord their God which is their one body. God is in an unending progression of learning, sharing, adventuring and savoring their joy of awareness and loving influence with themselves and all other possible life spirit and carnal. Every moment of all time is new and securely founded on the law of in everything do to all others first as you would have all others do to you first. God is not a stagnate, self possessed, dictatorial, vindictive, wrathful, manipulative, intimidating, subjugating ruler of all other forms of life, temporal or eternal. God so loves even the puny, cosmically invisible, species of mankind that For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. To all who did receive “the true light”, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God; children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. This is not a mantra of creed, doctrine or theology as all organized religious bodies of mankind are dependent upon to protect their fundamental orthodoxy.

    He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

    Mark 7:6-8

    Baptism by the Holy Spirit means no more and no less than to be fully filled, totally whelmed, and completely with and in the Spirit of truth as your one Teacher.

    God can be revealed only by the Spirit of truth, the dove, the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, the Teacher and can only be found by those seeking the truth of and from God as testified to by the light shining from those fully filled, totally whelmed and completely with and in the Spirit of truth.

    Please, try to digest what I just shared with you. If you truly believe God is GOD then trust that they can understand your heart, soul, strength, mind enough to communicate directly with you, but only if, in private, you drop your traditional intellectual defenses to let them in to the unique heart, soul, strength, mind that only you are responsible to.

  • apoxbeonyou

    I’ve been to all those at some point. Thanks :)

  • otrotierra

    Miss your perspective. Hope to cross paths soon.

  • Herm

    Widuran, use the image of God that they gave you, and all males and females of mankind; your spirit heart, soul, strength, mind to love the Lord your God with all your love; and like that, love your poor, wealthy, black, white, red, yellow, gay, straight, male, female, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Confusion, Hindi, Atheist neighbor as yourself. If you do this you will live.

    Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

    “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

    John 12:44-50 (NIV2011)

    There is only one sure salvation from the falsehoods spread by the traditional orthodox, fundamentalist, evangelical religious authorities of mankind.

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

    John 16:12-13

    He guides me into all truth, and certainly not the “Evangelical Bible teachers” of which I was once trained and ordained by to teach, lead and officiate over the carnal church of mankind. Today, there is only one high priest I answer to who is with and in me at all times, without pause, and without end. There is only one temple I worship within and it was rebuilt to last eternally in three days, just after the curtain to the Holy Spirit was torn top to bottom. God’s only church is in the Spirit. There are no repeated carnal rituals, sacraments, doctrines, creeds or ever changing theologies in the church officiated by my high priest.

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)

    Do you worship in the Spirit and in truth, or do you worship in the intellectual traditions of carnal Man?

  • Herm

    Widuran, you stated, “My Teacher is Christ and you have not proven anything.

    Oh, how you mistake what I am sharing with you and you continue to blindly deny. I am not trying to prove anything for little children, from the perspective of their protective playpen, can only point to the mature they, outside the playpen we share, who can prove to your heart, soul, strength, mind what is truth, because they live it. Christ is the Messiah. Christ told his chosen disciples (students):

    “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:8-12

    I am a student filled by the Holy spirit and accepted fully by Christ. I have one Father and he is in heaven. I have one Instructor, the Messiah, and he is in heaven. I have one Teacher and he is with and in me without pause and without end, promised for eternity.

    I can only testify that my Teacher is the only one who can prove truth to your heart, soul, strength, mind. My Teacher is with and in all of God, our brother Jesus, our Father, and all our sibling children of God … bound as one in all love.

    God is not flesh and makes no judgments relative to temporal carnal life. Each of mankind must support the propagation of their animal species or the species will surely die, for each member of mankind will surely die. God makes all judgments based purely on the relational law governing life in the Spirit.

    There is not one member of the species mankind who is exactly the same as any other member; past present or in the future. There have always been members of mankind who could propagate by becoming one flesh in their progeny and members who could not. Sexuality is purely meant for propagation of a carnal species. Relationship through consensual intimacy is where the joy of pure love is found, carnal and spirit. How many hours have you spent propagating your species relative to how many hours you have enjoyed consensual intimacy? I hope, for you, much more of your temporal life has been spent in consensual intimacy.

    All of God is spirit, with no beginning and no end, and has no need to propagate that all of God will live. I am a male. Is it gay that he, the Spirit of truth, is intimately with and in me right now? Is it a gay relationship that I have with my Lord and brother with and in me right now?

    Marriage, especially when civil, is a reciprocal, consensual and mature relational contract between two of mankind on this earth. There is no marriage in heaven. I am bound by the law of heaven.

    Jesus never spoke to gay relationships as being against the law of heaven. He did speak to intimidation, manipulation and subjugation as being against the law of heaven.

    Until you see to know the only Teacher who can lead you into all truth, you are no more than a blind guide, especially when trying to intimidate, manipulate and subjugate others according to a god you do not know.

  • Herm

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)

    According to Christ, quoted above, I worship my Father, and all of God, in the Spirit and in truth.

    I am a child of God because the light is with and in me. Of course, in the Spirit and in truth, I worship my brother Jesus, our Father and all Jesus’ siblings of God on earth and in heaven.

    Do you worship a carnal image of Jesus, the Christ, found hanging from some sanctuary cross, or picture in a book, or an imagined deity sitting on a throne above you dictating your life?

    Good News, if you truly open to him, the Spirit of eternal truth can be found with and in you today.

    On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    John 14:20 (NIV2011)

    that day” came for me 24 revolutions around our puny sun
    ago. I can honestly testify that such a day can come for you if, in all humility, you reconsider your pride of capabilities and throw yourself on their mercy. They will pick you up, and only then, will you begin to learn from the only Teacher who completely whelms your heart, soul, strength, mind.

    In spirit there is no language, and simultaneously there is all language, communicated with and in each heart, soul, strength, mind whelmed with and in the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ I know infinitely more than any carnal book, logic or name can possibly portray. I don’t worship a name, I worship a most divine relationship.

    Now, who and where do you actually worship today?

  • Herm

    Incessant and constant hatred of the current President will not win elections.

    … or life eternal for those who seek to win elections for party over mankind.

  • Herm

    Be suspicious but read the answer. Yes, Jesus, the Christ/Messiah, is of God as well as is his Father and all children of God with and in the true light. Who told you to believe a yes or no answer is the litmus test you seek?

  • Herm

    Widuran, which of Christ’s claims do you speak to? Why would I be “too scared” to answer your pass fail judgment? Oh, you truly do exalt yourself to the level of Caiaphas:

    The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’ ”

    Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?”

    But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Matthew 26:59-68 (NIV2011)

    And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Matthew 12:31-32 (NIV2011)

    “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

    John 10:33-38 (NIV2011)

    On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:20-21 (NIV2011)

    Will you claim the authority to stone me for the trumped up sin of blasphemy when I tell you that I am a child of God today worshiping the same Father as does Jesus, the Christ? Why, because there is no satisfactory yes or no answer to “is Jesus, the Christ with all authority on earth and in heaven?“, would I fear your, of all people, retribution?

    My Father of God has no carnal name but his name is holy to me. Jesus’ and my Father’s kingdom has come and his will is being done on earth as it is in heaven. He provides me with my carnal and spirit sustenance daily without fail. He forgives my debts as I truly forgive my debtors. He leads me not into temptation and truly delivers me from evil. By his request I, as do all his children, carry my cross for you that one day you might repent (reconsider) and live.

    Who (by what authority) made you judge, jury and executioner for the children of God? What have I, or the gays you try to keep from God’s love, done to you?

  • Ron McPherson

    No matter how you answer it won’t be good enough for Wid. I went through the interrogation process this morning. It’s like before any weight can be put on your response, you first must take my orthodoxy exam

  • Ron McPherson

    Did Jesus Christ say in Luke 14:33 that no one can be his disciple unless they give up all their own possessions, yes or no? Have you done that, yes or no? See how that works?

  • Herm

    Thanks Ron, you know my history enough to know that I’ve been called out (ekklēsia as meaning into Jesus’ church) of educated and ordained officiating within the constraints of fundamentalist, evangelical, religious orthodoxy. Many residing and lurking here have.

    The “Wid”s who invade this sanctuary to pronounce God’s judgment on “others”, in the most anti-neighborly spirit possible, seem never to read and/or respond to the scripture quoted directly from the Messiah’s mouth that, to my heart and mind, clearly refute their presumed authority to do so in the name of God, by any name. Worst of all is that they don’t see that they declare us, from Ben all the way down to me, to be heretics and blasphemers founded in the same spirit of orthodoxy as did Caiaphas, and his council, declare Jesus fit only to be crucified in the name of and by the authority of God, according to their most fundamental theology (and, also, the then since removed authority of the Moses seat). They don’t see the Holy Spirit in us anymore than Caiaphas saw the Holy Spirit in Jesus.

    What’s it take to open hardened ears, eyes, hearts and minds to become receptive to God as though God really is real, aware, and influential in divine concern for the well being all of mankind just as each are, solely because, out of unconditional grace, God loves this world, each and all?

    I wouldn’t wish the pain of worthless humility I had to go through that, in a last ditch effort for any comfort, caused me to throw myself totally on God’s mercy, from which, only then, did I first understand the reality of our available Spirit of truth, at age fifty. We don’t need to find any long lost Gnostic gospels to find God with and in us, completing our spirit given to us all, male and female, in their image. The necessary verses of scripture are clearly in the compiled Bible we have today, any version, that tell of the Spirit of truth ready to be our one necessary guide, today and eternally, leading us toward and into all truth as we can bear. It’s not the weight placed on my pitiful responses that matters. It’s the truth that only God can possibly provide each of us individually, and together, as we progress toward the end of eternal life that matters in the end. No study of God, continually developing from the intellect of carnal mankind, can provide that truth which is found only in the Spirit. You and I point to where truth can be found and the “Wid”s of this world keep trying to point us back to when all things were right with God and Man???!!!

    It appears I needed, more than I thought, to unload a little. Thanks, Ron, for all you do for “others”, no less than you would have others do for you! If only Widuron would take the time to read and understand what you, I and all of us here offer him/her as we take the time to read the nearly same old orthodoxy (s)he offers us. At a minimum we don’t ask yes or no questions to determine the suitability to continue to share the Good News.

    I sure hate to think of all the consequences before us if we didn’t pass Widuron’s test of divine passage … anxiously looking for my grade in the mail!

    As always, Love You,
    Herm

  • Ron McPherson

    Beautifully stated!!! Love you!

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Have you ever read Philemon?

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Hey Bob, I watch this wildly ridiculous interaction–one can hardly call it a conversation–in which I admire your tenacity. I might add a bit of food for thought–in a debate the one who asks the questions determines the outcome. The demand to prove God demands the negative. For me the burden of proof is on the atheist for they have posited an idea to negate it which is a rather suspect approach. I might also add a proverb–“rebuke a fool and you look like a fool, don’t answer the fool and he remains the fool”–your tenacity has put you in a rather unenviable position BUT perhaps the position you want and for that I admire you and I wish you the best. For your own learning and perhaps that some of your opposition might come to grips with the weaknesses of so much of their approach to truth.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    now really, that is just ignorant–“the 4th century Roman religion they called ‘Christianity'”!!

  • Everett Kier Jr

    WOW…Herm is claiming to be God, well god!

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Bones for a man who is so impressed with his supposed brain power I find your lack of reading the Bible for any comprehension is deplorable.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “No God does not condone slavery. Not for the new testament Christian.”

    You are quoting 1 Timothy. Maybe you have not read all of it…

    Bible sez:

    1 Timothy 6:1-2 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.

    also:

    Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

  • Herm

    Everett, are you accusing me of blasphemy? Did Jesus claim to be God to Caiaphas, or accept that he was no more than the prophesied Messiah, the Son of God?

    Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?”

    But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Matthew 26:62-68 (NIV2011)

    Interesting …

    As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

    Matthew 3:16-17

    Are you saying that you have never heard a voice from heaven say, “This is my son (daughter, or child), whom I love; with him (her) I am well pleased”?

    How do you read, in your Bible, the following?

    The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    John 1:9-13 (NIV2011)

    … combined with this:

    If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    … and this:

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    … and this:

    He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Matthew 12:48-50 (NIV2011)

    … and this:

    “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:8-12 (NIV2011)

    … and this:

    “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. “This, then, is how you should pray: “ ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

    Matthew 6:5-15 (NIV2011)

    … and much more written in your Bible.

    Everrett, where have you found, in your Bible, that Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, the Instructor, the Son of God with all authority in heaven and on earth even once said that no child of Man could be a child of God on this earth and in heaven?

    I claim to be no more than a little child of God born of the true light, with and in the Spirit of truth eternally, without pause. You must not have experienced the Good News? I am not God. Jesus is not God. Our Father is not God. We, included with all children of God (little and mature), are of God each with and in each other by way of the Holy Spirit bound as one in all love.

    What is your basis for speaking out as you have?

  • Herm

    Jesus, the Christ, has never claimed to be more than the Son of Man/Son of God with all authority given him on earth and in heaven. Why do you feel that what you might suspect has anything to do with my relationship with and in God as their little child? Why are not you going directly to God as I do?

  • Ron McPherson

    Why such a long answer? Answer either yes or no. Have you given up all your possessions? See how that works?

  • Gay atheists on this site appear particularly needy. They not only need approval for their lifestyle but at the same time they want to deny the only one who could give it.

  • Ron McPherson

    LOL, so you have given up all your possessions just like Jesus’ disciples huh.

    By the way, the hypocrisy is YOURS! YOU were the one coming on here requiring yes or no answers to YOUR interrogation and it was YOU who rebuked others for giving a longer answer other than just a simple yes or no. When the tactic was turned on YOU to demonstrate YOUR OWN antagonistic methods, you didn’t like it. It’s somehow ok when YOU do it to others, but not ok when it’s done on you. That was the whole entire point of the exercise and you played the part perfectly for the world to see. It couldn’t have been scripted any better. The blindness on your own issues is duly noted.

  • You say, “I am well versed in the Bible, including all original languages in which it was written.”
    Then I challenge you to explain to us the meaning of Hebrews 4:9 which is written in the bible that you abhor.
    Tell us if you can in plain words without posting a bunch of crap from the internet or your psychobabble.
    Or, perhaps, be honest an admit that you cannot because your direct psychic link to the Spirit is off-line at the moment.

  • Ron McPherson

    Nah, you just can’t take the same kind of treatment you dish out. And you keep proving it with your every post. It’s not so fun when the shoe is on the other foot is it? By the way, Jesus didn’t say give up “many” possessions, he said “all”. Don’t you accept the clear teachings of the Bible? See how this feels when your own ridiculous tactics are used against you?

  • Ron McPherson

    You’re bearing false witness against me. As soon as someone exposes your own hypocritical standards you scream fake Christian. Here’s some news. When someone exposes Widuran’s double standards it doesn’t mean they don’t believe in Jesus

  • Ron McPherson
  • There are not 1663 commandments/instructions in the bible. That is a popular refrain on this site but has no support even in Judaism where we find 613 commandments mentioned by a Rabbi Simlai not “1663” roughly.

    Even so, no one in Judaism or Christianity advocates or professes to keep such a massive number of commands. These comments are primarily from the atheists and the Lawless on this site to marginalize the bible. Knowing the Commands of God, keeping them or wanting to keep them are three completely different concepts which most on this site don’t differentiate. Many on this site are from the Church of the Beatles where “All you need is Love.” This insulates them from any responsibility to know God and learn about God correctly.

    You say, ” And which of those commandments were people to obey before the Bible was even assembled?” as if you don’t understand that God shared His Commandments with man from the beginning in the Garden. The bible is a book, the most published book in the world, but it is really a complete and accurate codification for the people who came after it’s publication to have a source reference and to prevent others from perverting God’s word without difficulty. Prior to the bible from Adam to Noah to Abraham and David, et. al. God’s people knew and obeyed His Commands. The fact that you don’t know which of God’s Commands to keep indicates you don’t know God as well as you think you do. At least the atheists admit they don’t know God’s Commands very well because it is not important to them.

  • Ron McPherson

    Um, yeah, there are 613 in the OT. I never indicated otherwise . And the point of asking which commandments to keep was in response to the poster saying all of God’s teachings are to be kept. Keep up Bob

  • otrotierra

    Not sure why others have to keep spoonfeeding the simplest of facts to Bob Shiloh. I guess reading comprehension is now politically incorrect.

  • Ron McPherson

    LOL! You seriously can’t help yourself can you. Hey everybody. Widuran is giving another yes or no orthodoxy quiz to separate the wheat from the tares.

    By the way, you’re again bearing false witness against me. I’ve already affirmed that I believe Christ is the risen Lord and Savior, that I believe in his divinity and I believe him to be Son of the living God. It’s funny that such a response must somehow fall short to a zealous Trinitarian like yourself.

    I believe that God’s kingdom consists of those with whom the Holy Spirit dwells based solely on his grace alone. I utterly reject that God receives into his kingdom only those who cling to the doctrines of Winduran.

    The issue here is that you want to claim what a yes or no issue is and what is not. Here’s some news. Widuran does not get to unilaterally decide what verses can or cannot be read in context. Sorry. You don’t like that I can tell. Why? Because when it’s used against you, you feel unfairly treated. Perhaps next time you’ll do some serious introspection before you go charging on a site screaming fake Christians to all those who read a passage in context where you don’t (I’m not holding my breath because thus far all you’ve done is double down). The shoe doesn’t feel so well when it’s on the other foot does it.

    Tell ya what. You read the Bible as you and your tribe see fit. Allow others to read the Bible as they see fit without yelling fake Christians. Have mercy, it’s eerily similar to “fake news.” There’s more than enough work to be done by all who claim the name of Jesus to abide in his greatest commandment noted in Matt 22:35-40.

    Here’s more news. Jesus did not define those who are his authentic followers using Widuran’s definition of doctrine. Here’s exactly, with precise clarity, how Jesus said how others would know who his true followers are:
    “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”” ‭John‬ ‭13:35‬. ‭

  • Ron McPherson

    What grade are you in?

  • Ron McPherson

    Well your response seemed a bit childish so thought I’d ask

  • Ron McPherson

    Go look up the term cognitive dissonance

  • Herm

    You have proven nothing, except to your false sense of exaltation. God loves all of the world you try so hard to exclude yourself from. Christ claimed, and claims today, his place as a son of Man. You are not of God because you are blind to the true light in your midst. By your fruit you are representative of the modern day Pharisees and teachers of the law, who by their diligent study of scripture, did not recognize the Spirit of truth in Christ. You do not recognize the Spirit of truth because you are of this world only and refuse to accept the image of God that all male and female of the animal species mankind have been graced. You choose to crucify rather than carry your own cross. You miss the whole sequence presented to you in the New Testament of your Bible. Fundamentalist, evangelical, orthodox blind guides and blind followers murdered the Son of God in the name of God. Just after the Son of God ascended into heaven James, Peter, and Paul proceeded to organize a carnal church of worship completely contrary to what Jesus said as is found in John 4:21-24. They began to interpret all scripture according to the fundamentals they only knew four years earlier and went back to carnal orthodoxy in the worship of God. All of your physical church accouterments, creeds, doctrines, theologies, rituals, and sacraments are an idolized worship of a god you do not know with and in you, who is spirit. You are a believer because you sense something is out there bigger than you. I see, know and worship the eternal God of spirit personally as they are all with and in the Spirit of truth with and in me. I show you, in your Bible, where this is spoken to by the Messiah and you are silent because it means nothing to you, because you are blind to the Spirit of truth (the true light in the beginning, now and forever) who appeared as a dove to alight on the Messiah. You can’t, as most intellectual scholars who do not see the Spirit of truth, recognize in your New Testament when Jesus was speaking and/or when the Advocate was speaking.

    The Bible is not the truth you seek. The Bible points to the only one Spirit of truth (Teacher) you cannot see.

    The Bible cannot contain God. The Holy Spirit does contain all of God.

    I have proved you wrong yet you refuse to acknowledge truth

    It is you who cannot see the truth in your midst. I have no false sense of competition with you. What do you want to win?

    You are a false believer

    “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, knowing it was out of self-interest that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

    “What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them.

    “Crucify him!” they shouted.

    “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!” Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

    Mark 15:9-15 (NIV2011)

    Those are true believers of scripture and of their chief priests shouting to crucify the Son of God in God’s name.

    I have one priest and he is the last high priest in the order of Melchizedek. I worship my Father and my God (which are we) in the Spirit only. I am not a believer of God, who I do know personally, though I completely trust that they will be with and in me forever.

    You are a true believer, congratulations! What have you won?

  • Herm

    Bob, this is my chosen day to rest in God, my Sabbath, today! We play at the beach together as our RE-creation.

    Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

    Colossians 2:16 (NIV2011)

  • Ron McPherson

    I guess you didn’t look it up. Or if you did, you didn’t understand it.

  • Funny. I thought this quote was yours: “Between the Old and New Testaments, there are roughly 1663 commandments and/or instructions. Which of those should God’s people “obey” beyond Love God and neighbor per Jesus in Matt 22:36-40? And which of those commandments were people to obey before the Bible was even assembled?”

  • Ron McPherson

    I believe everyone should have the same right to interpret and apply biblical passages as they see fit. You don’t! You apply a double standard; your rules of biblical interpretation and all others you steadfastly assert to be wrong. YOU get to decide which passages can be contextualized. YOU get to decide which passages CANNOT be contextualized. YOU get to decide which passages require explanation. YOU get to decide which passages do NOT require explanation. YOU get to decide which passages should be “core doctrine.” And if anybody pushes back, or challenges you on it, you post a biblical reference that literally is irrelevant to your claims. When someone calls you on it, to you it means they reject God. A challenge to your self-assumed authority and your understanding of a passage is to you a challenge to God. To you it’s the same thing. And the sad thing is that you don’t understand that’s a dangerous problem.

  • Ron McPherson

    Right.

    613 OT + 1050 NT = 1663 Total

    Unless the principles of basic math have changed, I’m pretty sure that adds correctly

  • Herm

    Widuran, your fruit, your lack of empathy for others, your fundamentalist, evangelical, orthodox, theoretical (theological), doctrinal judgments in the order of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, who laid the groundwork for the crucifixion of God founded on their beliefs, all are evidence of you excluding yourself from the world. God is inclusive of the world they love, you are exclusive within the world you despise.

    You have no clue who the Spirit of truth is or you would reconsider (repent from) your hollow threats. Ask God! I am only their little adorable child, perfectly imperfect, of whom, all within all, I am well pleased.

  • Herm

    Everett, I hope Bones has not given up on you. I do hope he continues to share with you, even when you show your ignorance by a failed attempt to denigrate his “brain power”.

    I do hold out hope for someone as vulnerable as you to one day find the only source for the truth of God you can trust, the Spirit of truth in your midst, offered by God to you, and your family.

    I hope, from the following, you can see that the Bible, your Bible, does in fact say, “concubines were fine (only for men though)“.

    The sons born to Keturah, Abraham’s concubine: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. The sons of Jokshan: Sheba and Dedan.

    1 Chronicles 1:32 (NIV2011)

    Some time later Abraham was told, “Milkah is also a mother; she has borne sons to your brother Nahor: Uz the firstborn, Buz his brother, Kemuel (the father of Aram), Kesed, Hazo, Pildash, Jidlaph and Bethuel.” Bethuel became the father of Rebekah. Milkah bore these eight sons to Abraham’s brother Nahor. His concubine, whose name was Reumah, also had sons: Tebah, Gaham, Tahash and Maakah.

    Genesis 22:20-24 (NIV2011)

    Abraham left everything he owned to Isaac. But while he was still living, he gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them away from his son Isaac to the land of the east.

    Genesis 25:5-6 (NIV2011)

    If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.

    Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (NIV2011)

    A messenger came and told David, “The hearts of the people of Israel are with Absalom.” Then David said to all his officials who were with him in Jerusalem, “Come! We must flee, or none of us will escape from Absalom. We must leave immediately, or he will move quickly to overtake us and bring ruin on us and put the city to the sword.” The king’s officials answered him, “Your servants are ready to do whatever our lord the king chooses.” The king set out, with his entire household following him; but he left ten concubines to take care of the palace.

    2 Samuel 15:13-16 (NIV2011)

    Meanwhile, Absalom and all the men of Israel came to Jerusalem, and Ahithophel was with him. Then Hushai the Arkite, David’s confidant, went to Absalom and said to him, “Long live the king! Long live the king!” Absalom said to Hushai, “So this is the love you show your friend? If he’s your friend, why didn’t you go with him?” Hushai said to Absalom, “No, the one chosen by the LORD, by these people, and by all the men of Israel—his I will be, and I will remain with him. Furthermore, whom should I serve? Should I not serve the son? Just as I served your father, so I will serve you.” Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Give us your advice. What should we do?” Ahithophel answered, “Sleep with your father’s concubines whom he left to take care of the palace. Then all Israel will hear that you have made yourself obnoxious to your father, and the hands of everyone with you will be more resolute.” So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he slept with his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel. Now in those days the advice Ahithophel gave was like that of one who inquires of God. That was how both David and Absalom regarded all of Ahithophel’s advice.

    2 Samuel 16:15-23 (NIV2011)

    When David returned to his palace in Jerusalem, he took the ten concubines he had left to take care of the palace and put them in a house under guard. He provided for them but had no sexual relations with them. They were kept in confinement till the day of their death, living as widows.

    2 Samuel 20:3 (NIV2011)

    King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods.

    Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.

    As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

    1 Kings 11:1-6 (NIV2011)

    Please note: according to your Bible, the LORD says nothing against having 700 wives and 300 concubines, only warning against intermarrying between certain foreign nations having other gods.

    When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

    Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

    “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.

    “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

    Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

    Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

    Matthew 19:1-12 (NIV2011)

    Just to tickle your brain a little, it has been pointed out, by my Teacher, that the above scripture does not necessarily speak to marriage as monogamous, a sacred word or a sacred sacrament.

    Two become one flesh, not in the sexual act of propagating the species of mankind (for that is a join in, united, and then a separate out physical relationship), but definitely in the resulting progeny that God has joined (egg and sperm) together as one flesh. A husband and wife maintain separate roles necessary to raise their children to where they can constructively and productively, without hardened hearts, speak as adults. Divorce severely hampers that relationship and the maturing of their heartfelt and heart directed propagation of mankind, who was graced, male and female, the image of God.

    There is nothing in this scripture which denies concubines nor having more than one wife for each husband. It speaks clearly for each single relationship of husband and wife who produce offspring.

    What caused you to attack Bones’ “brain power”?

  • Ron McPherson

    You just ooze Jesus

  • Ron McPherson

    What gets tiresome is the continual appearance of those like you coming onto sites and spouting the same old exclusivist conservative fundamentalist condemnatory dogma as if no one here hasn’t heard it a million times already. You all look the same. It’s literally played out over and over and over. I actually used to be one of you, at least in thought (the only difference is that I at least TRIED not to sound like a first class a$$hole like you’re doing). Fortunately, God rescued me from such dead Pharisaism by forcing me to look at Jesus and what he actually taught. You should take a hard look at who his real enemies were. It’s not who you think.

    For one who relishes the thought of elevating themselves above all the “false Christians”, you sure need to brush up on learning the characteristics of the fruits of the spirit. The only positive thing that ever results from you types coming on here is that your prideful hypocrisy always gets exposed, where hopefully those who might at least be kicking the tires to learn more about the faith can see that people like you don’t speak for authentic Christianity.

  • Herm

    Father in heaven, I gave it my infant best, as I have been taught, as I have been able to bear, by my Advocate who you so graciously gifted us. Widuran truly seems not to be able comprehend how much (s)he so closely emulates the spirit of Caiaphas, or, worse, those who so blindly followed to call for the crucifixion of Jesus, our Messiah. I shake the dust off my sandals! amen

  • In a sense I guess he is. But we have such different beliefs we cannot agree on much even to start debate.

  • The principles of math did not change but only because Progressives have not figured out how to do it without backlash.
    I took a very brief look at what is supposed to be 1050 NT commands and as I suspected it is ridiculous on its face and totally without merit.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve already affirmed, multiple times, that I believe Jesus to be the Son of God as he claimed in the verses you posted. I’ve affirmed multiple times that I believe him to be the crucified and risen Savior and Lord – my Savior and Lord. I believe him to be the Messiah. I believe in his deity – God dwelt among us, the perfect manifestation of God. I believe we are united with the Father through him, the Son, citizens of his kingdom being indwelt by the Spirit of God. How much clearer can I be?

  • Ron McPherson

    Well I’m glad you now understand how basic math works at least.

  • Ron McPherson

    Ah, ok, I guess you calling me a false Christian and heretic is not resorting to name calling on your part. Good to know

  • Ron McPherson

    Well at least Widuran isn’t resorting to name calling

  • Servant Emmanuel

    You’re kidding me RIGHT?
    How do you know about the Talmud and NOT know that it is man’s law?
    The Father didn’t need two sets of rules, he didn’t tell his people NOT to speak his name, (which is from the Talmud) but The Talmud is the compilation of the historic rabbis “discussing” or “debating” what the Torah means. There are 2 of them the Babylonian written around the year 500 CE I believe & the Jerusalem Talmud that came in the 4th century.
    Neither are from the father but attempts of flawed men like you & I which means it has no validity!
    But do not take my word for anything I am just a flawed man just like you. Do your own research and go from there!!!

  • Ron McPherson

    Sorry, but things are not ‘facts’ merely because they exist within your own mind. Truth doesn’t work that way. And the scriptures you use for your vitriolic accusations don’t support your claims either.

  • Ok. I’ll wait for your response.

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s always funny when people like you charge onto a site calling people names like fake Christians and heretics, yet when receiving pushback from others you become the victim. And when your own hypocritical tactics are turned against you, you immediately yell hypocrite. It shows how your mind works.

  • Bob Presnell

    It’s proved in millions of heart. I was a drug addict, alcoholic and just a heathen. God meet me in 1972 and saved me and I didn’t kill myself! I know it’s hard to believe but I go by the Bible and the Spirit that is in me. I am suppose to be dead and I died over 4 years ago and it’s all written down! I got the medical records! I have been saved from a van rolling over me, incurable diseases, things that Dr.s can’t explain so for me God is real. The Bible lived in me before I read it. I also got the baptism in the Holy Spirit and pray and speak in another language as the Spirit give the words and I know nothing about this and my language is mainly ancient Hebrew. I don’t force what I believe on no one but I do try to convince. God bless

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve repeatedly and continuously affirmed my faith in Jesus as the Son of God. It’s utterly bizarre you seem to reject my answer given the following from Matthew 16:15-17, “He said to them, ‘And who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!”

    I’ve affirmed I believe in his his deity, his resurrection, that he’s both Savior and Lord, that he’s the Messiah. And even in all this, you still persist. It’s astounding.

    The reason I want to proceed with caution and precise clarity on this topic stems from a desire to not be confusing in my response. Using even your own Trinitarian definition, the essence of God is not confined solely to the person of Jesus. Your question however is asked from a purposely and defiantly limited scope. From a zealous Trinitarian like yourself, one would think you should know better and would give due diligence to such an issue rather than casually approaching it in such a simplistic manner. Yet to you, anyone who doesn’t put God in a neat and tidy little box like you’re trying to do is a false Christian.

  • otrotierra

    So peculiar. He is determined to reject the historical law-breaking border-crossing refugee Jesus in his own words and actions. Is this the current state of U.S. White Evangelicalism under TrumpPutin?

  • Ron McPherson

    People become so mired in doctrine and ideology that they miss the essence of Jesus’ gospel. It’s been reduced to believe these facts, pray this prayer, and you can escape being scorched in flames forever.

  • rationalobservations?

    It is you who appear ignorant of the fact that there is no tangible evidence of a cult of “christianity” among the many messianic cults that followed other characters before the establishment of a religion of that name in the 4th century.
    There is no trace of christianity (as we know it since the 4th century) from within the prior centuries and not one single item of authentic and original, 1st century originated evidence of the existence of a “messiah” claimant named “Yeshua/Y-Shua/Jesus” among the several “messiahs” that did leave traces between Circa 6 BCE and Circa 140 CE.
    The oldest bibles (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) date from fabrication AFTER the foundation of the Roman religion of “christianity” in the 4th century and the vast majority of christian propaganda was written by men during and after the 4th century.

    http://thunk.co/img/cc0cfb12.jpg

  • Herm

    There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

    Hebrews 4:9 (NIV2011)

    Greek Strong’s Number: 4520
    Greek Word: σαββατισμός
    Transliteration: sabbatismos
    Phonetic Pronunciation:sab-bat-is-mos’
    Root: from a derivative of
    Cross Reference: TDNT – 7:34,989
    Part of Speech: n m
    Vine’s Words: Rest

    English Words used in KJV:
    rest 1
    [Total Count: 1]

    from a derivative of (sabbaton); a “sabbatism”, i.e. (figurative) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven) :- rest.
    Strong’s Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    Hebrews 4:12 (NIV2011)

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)

    On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    John 14:20 (NIV2011)

    the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    John 14:17 (NIV2011)

    and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

    Luke 3:22 (NIV2011)

    Bob, I responded, yesterday, my sabbath day rest from the intimidation, manipulation and subjugation of mankind against mankind, while I was wholly filled and in God, with the most succinct answer possible, by my example. You honored my sabbath and missed the Spirit I offered you to fully comprehend the meaning of Hebrews 4:9.

    You said, “Or, perhaps, be honest an admit that you cannot because your direct psychic link to the Spirit is off-line at the moment.

    Bob, my direct link with and in the Spirit of truth, and all of God, is never, within any earthly week, more powerful than when I rest, focus and recreate on my sabbath day with and in all of God. I wish, so very much, that I could reach into your hardened heart and mind (in God’s image) and introduce you to the Holy Spirit, right there in your midst waiting for you, so that you too could enjoy the rest only children can know, trusting in their Father on holiday.

  • rationalobservations?

    I wonder if you can present evidence of the existence of 2 billion christians who believe in any of the many diverse and different, confused and internally contradictory, evidence devoid, historically unsupported and historically inaccurate, scientifically absurd versions of bibles that have been written by men since the 4th century?
    Religion is in sharp and accelerating decline and the third largest and fastest growing human demographic are the non-religious and we outnumber any individual cult or sect of religion – including the hundreds of declining cults, sects and obscenely wealthy businesses of the christian religion.

    The vast majority of the population of the developed world know better than you, Bob. You appear almost proud to display and parade your ignorance. Shame on you!

    https://monicksunleashed.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/99-percent-atheist.jpg

  • rationalobservations?

    Your vile religion would have us believe that it can “save us” from what your vile gods will do to us if we do not bow down and worship the men who run the vile religions that would delude and enslave us if we had not become better educated that the gullible and ignorant folk who still remain enslaved and in thrall to vile religion.
    http://etkirja.pp.fi/hell.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SLVOq77YxcI/WdD49ptS1SI/AAAAAAAAlOs/FqEnF3E72zoc4HIK4i_jqfQAVYLOGvclACJoC/w1435-h1221/20171001_101457.png

    https://freethoughtnaija.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/graveyard-of-the-gods.jpg

  • I suggest you visit a few churches on any Sunday and see some of the 2 billion people who believe in their God.
    Religion and belief in God are two very different things. Why do you care if your neighbors believe in God? Why does that bother you? Insecurity?
    Shame on me for what; Believing God. Shame on you for acting out over nothing.

  • You don’t know my religion let alone much about Christianity. Are you on drugs as you write? Consider getting sober it will prolong your life.

  • Herm

    Are you finished with your holier than thou subjugating rant?

    Do you wish to listen to the eternal Spirit of truth (pointed to by your Bible and the words of the Messiah) directly with and in your heart, or are you going to keep pointing back to your Bible as the only truth of God to bet your life on?

    Just to explain something in spirit that cannot be understood in carnal (tune in your latent image of God). Jesus never once claimed the “I am” until the Holy Spirit came in full (appearing in bodily form) to be with and in the prophesied Messiah. Jesus, was born of God as a helpless child of Man. A voice from heaven claiming Jesus as their son, of whom they were well pleased, did not come until after Jesus became one with the Spirit of truth.

    The “I am”, the “true light” in the beginning, the only salvation from the intimidating, manipulating and subjugating Pharisees and teachers of the law, then and now, the only true eternally available Gospel (Good News) for all of mankind, the only one we can trust to teach us the words necessary when on trial before blind judges is the Holy Spirit, the Advocate, the Spirit of truth.

    In the words quoted from the Christ that you find wonderful, “I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you“, is found the only way to becoming one with and in God, but you ignore their messages, for I am one of the “their” baptized, sanctified and chartered to make you a student of the Teacher with and in the Instructor.

    This is written in your dying Bible of dust, now with no supporting original copies preserved, pointing to the only possible source for eternal truth with and in God, and yet you will not comment, except when it seems like a wonderful prayer:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    That day has come for me. The Spirit of truth lives with me and is in me as he is, and has always been, and will always be, for my Father and my brother, AKA the Messiah. I am not pointing you to me, a religion or any writings of mankind for the truth with, in and of God. I am testifying to the good news that you too can live with and in the Spirit of truth as one with the Father, the Messiah, and all the children of God.

    I will be glad to answer your questions, even contemplate your views, but am not receptive to your attitude of judgmental coercion, intimidation, manipulation, and subjugation. In everything I will do to you as I would have you do to me. Otherwise, you are on your own.

  • otrotierra

    Dr. Corey’s blog–his articles and the contrasting comment section–will certainly make for fascinating data in the future. Self-serving U.S. Evangelical lust for authoritarian adherence to their opinion is so strong that nothing, not even Jesus, will get in their way.

  • rationalobservations?

    I visit many churches and cathedrals on m travels and truly appreciate the human ingenuity of their construction and the beauty of the human fabricated works of art they contain. I is however increasingly difficult to find active and operational churches among the empty, closed, rotting and redundant churches that litter the villages, towns and cities of the developed world.
    Of course the remaining active churches may appear to be quite busy. The dwindling and declining congregations of all those redundant and empty churches need somewhere to gather for their weekly dose of dishonesty and nonsense.
    Of course you are correct that religion and believing in gods (always plural since there are many millions of them and none have ever been demonstrated to exist) are two different things. Religion invents gods and belief in those gods is the product of indoctrination by those religions.
    I actually could hardly care less about those declining few of my fellow countrymen and women still in thrall to religion. They are treated well as the ignorant and most;yy harmless eccentrics they demonstrate themselves to be as they disappear from society without replacement.

  • rationalobservations?

    I could hardly care less which brand of voodoo you are enslaved by, Bob.
    Your cowardly and misplaced attempt at insult is as pathetic as your deluded condition, son.

  • “I is however increasingly difficult to find active and operational churches among the empty, closed, rotting and redundant churches that litter the villages, towns and cities of the developed world.” I don’t believe your conclusion at all because you are making it for a self-serving reason. We have also traveled extensively and did not find that condition.

    Bitterness eats at the bones you know….

  • rationalobservations?

    Your sad and pitiful condition of blanket denial is once again noted.
    You should take your own advice and give up all this bitterness you fail to protect onto the happy, healthy peaceful atheists who confuse and confound you.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Dear Herm….your quotes do not prove your assertion. To record what happened is not to endorse said action. Your logic and your proof simply do not support claim.

  • Herm

    Dear Everett,

    Then you disagree with my notation: “according to your Bible, the LORD says nothing against having 700 wives and 300 concubines, only warning against intermarrying between certain foreign nations having other gods“, right?

    Perhaps, you can find where the LORD denies concubines as being “fine” contained within your Bible, please.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Herm…I was simply noting your claim of deity….”The Spirit of truth, with and in me” seems to be a clear claim to deity…all I was noting. My source of truth is the 66 books of the Old and New Testament which for me are truth. Fairly standard Christian answer for centuries. I recognize one with which you might have disagreement but I am comfortable.

  • Herm

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    You are actually saying that “The Father” did not give us another advocate as Jesus requested in the book of John, or is it you are saying, since you do not see to accept the “Spirit of truth”, that it simply should be dismissed? Tehn, that would say, if there is any truth to the scripture above, that you consider yourself left “orphaned” by both Christ and our Father.

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    All I can do is testify to you that my source of truth is he, the one Teacher, who is guiding me into all truth, as I can bear. The real Gospel is that none are left orphaned to only have a family history remaining of God as their only reminder of when God was with them.

    “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

    “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

    John 17:20-26 (NIV2011)

    I am one of the their, with a message to potential believers, who is filled, whelmed, baptized to be eternally living with and in the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) as a child of God, in the Father’s and the Son’s name, and chartered to make more students (disciples) of mankind for the one Teacher (the Spirit of truth) and the one Instructor (the Messiah). Do you really believe God has had no children on this earth, really, since at least 1,900 years ago, when the elements of last disciple’s (student’s) carnal body returned to the earth? I hurt for you and yours, I really do.

    Do you believe God points to the temporal Bible as a substitute for a direct relationship with them today, and has ever since the last human being was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly (Acts 4:31), before the New Testament was written, compiled and canonized by mankind?

    I know that the Bible, all of your 66 books (or 73 in the Roman Catholic canon), points to God and the really good news that the Spirit of truth is available to save you from the scholarly Pharisees, Sadducee, teachers of the law and carnal priests who didn’t recognize the Spirit of truth in Christ so much so that they crucified the only begotten son of God in the name of God, just as is true with the same spirited modern day carnal church authorities doing today to children of God, living with and in the Spirit of truth, all based on canonized scripture, ignoring the Spirit of truth. Neither I nor the Bible point you to any carnal worship of God. We both point you to the Spirit of truth in your midst.

    Only by the grace of God, who gave us all the children of Man, male and female, an image of of them, that we can be born of God (who is spirit) as their little child. You don’t even trust your 66 books enough to seek and inquire of God directly to see if what I say is true. Caiaphas, as the reigning high priest, could have counseled directly with the Holy Spirit, behind the curtains of the Holy of Holies, to see if what Jesus said was true, but he didn’t.

    The Spirit of truth is living with and in me without pause, and without end, promised in your Bible to last forever.

    Do you actually worship the 66 books of your Bible as your soul/sole source of truth? The Bible is carnal.

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)

    Are you a child of God?

  • Thanks, But you have to try harder. “sabbatismos” does not mean rest.

  • Good for you Bob. God Bless.

  • Part of the problem I see here, and is one of the issues I have had with Bob Shiloh is both of you are dealing with propositional truth. Alan, you are dealing with truth based on empiricism and Bob’s take on truth is based on authority and the presuppositionalism that goes with that. You are expecting him to use the same yardstick you use. That won’t work. For much of the history of mankind, truth, or making sense of the world, is based on story: on narrative. The Bible presents us with a grand narrative of meaning, belonging and duty to our fellow man. Science can tell us a great deal about ourselves and with someone like Carl Sagan, we can put ourselves in perspective to the rest of the cosmos…we are just a speck in a glorious universe. On the other hand the doctor can scientifically explain why your three year old is dying, but the science does little to comfort or soften the blow.
    Proof is a very subjective term when it comes to understanding evil, suffering and strife. Religion can and often does make sense in dealing with societies ills. How can science cure racism, mysogeny, homophobia, nationalism, and a host of other problems? It is the wrong tool for the task. Different tools for different tasks. I would differ from Bob in that I would say religion, including Christianity is subject to being subjective, while I am sure Bob sees the Bible as objective truth. This discounts the human factor in the Bible, and the evolution of morality and the ontology of God present in the Bible itself.
    At root, Jesus presented his culture with a radical concept of morality that was counter intuitive to the majority views of both the Jews and the Roman occupiers. Much of it is summed up on the Sermon on the Mount. It is entirely different than the so-called moral laws you have alluded to and is the difference between what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is a countercultural call to uphold the weak, face hatred with love and take care of the marginalized. Unfortunately, a great many American Christians have been taught to discount this as a liberal “social gospel” message and instead have concentrated more on an “us vs them” mentality.
    Perhaps Christianity would make more sense if people truly followed in Jesus’ footsteps. I know the world would be better off.

  • Servant Emmanuel

    No I am Not!
    It’s totally surprising how these guys keep growing but I’m not one of them at all.
    Father “Yahuah” doesn’t allow me to brag or boast, He hates Pride & Vanity but deplores any of us thinking that wee are better than another!!!

  • Herm

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4520

    Read the entire page, particularly note … “Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest G4520 to the people of God.”

    Perhaps you confuse the Greek word “sabbatismos”, used only once in the New Testament in Hebrews 4:9, with “sabbaton” which refers mostly to “the Sabbath, a Week”.

    Bob, last Saturday was my chosen day to rest in God, my Sabbath! We, God and I, play at the beach together as our RE-creation. Did not that make any sense to you or are you not resting on your chosen Sabbath?

    Maybe, you are judging some one by what they eat or drink, or in regard to their religious festival, or a New Moon celebration, or their Sabbath Day.

    Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

    Colossians 2:16 (NIV2011)

    What are you trying to do?

    You do know that I was once an ordained SDA elder and minister, don’t you? God is so much bigger than any day of rest relative to every 7 days of this earth’s revolutions, or four season’s on our earth for each revolution around our puny sun. There are more than 200 billion suns (ours is one of the smallest) in our Milky Way galaxy alone. It’s an easier number to comprehend when calculating the age of our universe which is only around 13.8 billion years old, beginning to now. God is bigger than that while being able to sit in their heavenly entirety on any one quark’s pimple.

    God is relatively infinitely bigger than, and will out live, all the Bibles in the carnal cosmos. How much do you comprehend, what can you bear today, of what God has to teach you? Do you even understand how infinitesimally petty your Bible is compared to the magnitude of what God knows and by grace alone chooses to share with us, beginning with their image, which is spirit, not carnal as is our entire universe?

    Yes, I was trained in Greek, Hebrew and Arabic in seminary, Presbyterian not SDA. I am well educated in the Bible. I have taught the Bible. I have taught Bible prophesy. I have taught diet in the church. I have served as a SDA prison minister. I administered church sacraments.

    I don’t have to try harder to answer your questions. You have to ask your questions of he, and only he, who can guide you into all truth. Your Bible points to him for you to seek, knock and ask directly. God can reach you exactly where you are at, with or without a Bible, but only if you come in all humility as a little child realizing you know nothing. There is no physical church on this earth who can replace the church administered by Jesus the Christ. There is no writing on earth that can replace the Spirit of truth living with and in you forever as your teacher. God’s people worship in the Spirit only.

    You can eat anything you want. You can worship, in the Spirit, anytime directly with and in God because God doesn’t revolve around our sun. You cannot attempt to intimidate, manipulate, coerce, or subjugate any other person to eat differently, or celebrate differently or worship differently than they choose. God doesn’t and neither shall you do so, in any name, if you actually wish to live beyond your carnal body, because that is a trespass against divine law. You must be more righteous than the Pharisees and the teachers of the law if you wish to enter heaven.

  • Ron McPherson

    You need to write a book. You, Ben and Phil L force me to think.

  • “A new study, however, suggests that the main threat to our democracy may not be the hardening of political ideology, but rather the hardening of one particular political ideology. Political scientists Steven V. Miller of Clemson and Nicholas T. Davis of Texas A&M have released a working paper titled “White Outgroup Intolerance and Declining Support for American Democracy.” Their study finds a correlation between white American’s intolerance, and support for authoritarian rule. In other words, when intolerant white people fear democracy may benefit marginalized people, they abandon their commitment to democracy.”

    While it is true that there has been a moderate swing to the far left in the Democratic Party, towards socialism, it is still not mainstream within the Party. On the other hand, the swing to the far right amongst Republicans has become mainstream within that Party. While one can have a successful merger of socialism and democracy, that is not true of totalitarianism and democracy. I have seen time and time again, in my conversations with white evangelicals, the swing against governmental intrusion into their lives goes only one way, i.e., conservatives balk at the government intruding into their lives but have no problems with it interfering in the lives of women, Latinos, Blacks, migrants, refugees and the sexually “others.” They display the worst form of libertarianism and will gladly jettison equality and civil rights if it is perceived to benefit them.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-effect-new-study-connects-white-american-intolerance-support-authoritarianism-ncna877886

  • I am reading too many books to have time to write one, lol. I do plan on getting more involved with my blog, however, as time permits.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ll choose Jesus’ words over your false witness against me any day.

    “Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven;”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:32‬ ‭

  • Ron McPherson

    I enjoy reading your blog as well

  • Ron McPherson

    Since you apparently struggle with reading comprehension, I’ll reiterate.

    I’ve repeatedly and continuously affirmed my faith in Jesus as the Son of God. It’s utterly bizarre you seem to reject my answer given the following from Matthew 16:15-17, “He said to them, ‘And who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!”
    I’ve affirmed I believe in his his deity, his resurrection, that he’s both Savior and Lord, that he’s the Messiah. And even in all this, you still persist. It’s astounding.
    The reason I want to proceed with caution and precise clarity on this topic stems from a desire to not be confusing in my response. Using even your own Trinitarian definition, the essence of God is not confined solely to the person of Jesus. Your question however is asked from a purposely and defiantly limited scope. From a zealous Trinitarian like yourself, one would think you should know better and would give due diligence to such an issue rather than casually approaching it in such a simplistic manner. Yet to you, anyone who doesn’t put God in a neat and tidy little box like you’re trying to do is a false Christian

  • apoxbeonyou

    LMAO!!! I love you, Ron. :)

  • apoxbeonyou

    As we can see on these threads, right now.

  • Ron McPherson

    Unfortunately, some of the most Un-Christlike people can be found on Sunday mornings in churches across America. Widuran probably never misses.

  • Thanks Ron, I appreciate that. The overall theme of the New Testament, and Jesus’teaching, is the Kingdom of God. I may ramble a bit on on my blog, but it is the principal behind my understanding of the purpose of the church, and what I try to anchor my writings to. What Jesus was attempting to correct and redirect to was corporate and individual social responsibility, i.e., love of one’s neighbor, even if that neighbor was an enemy. Instead, the American church has become focused on one’s individual relationship to God, and the personal benefits to be gained by being “born again.” It has become very “me” centric. As a result, it should come as no surprise that white evangelicals have in droves, have signed onto an American first ideology. It is self-serving and self centered just like their religion has become.

    I have had to cut back on my critiques of conservative Christianity on Facebook, as many of my family are devout evangelicals…wonderful people, caring people, but largely clueless as to the fact that they are being used and deceived. Confirmation bias is common and has a way of self confirming what one wants to hear. The other reason is the fact that evangelicalism is changing as we speak. I cannot discount the movement of Holy Spirit within the hearts of evangelicals as many are now questioning the wisdom of the culture wars they have embroiled the church in. The recent repentance shown in the SBC in the wake of the Paige Patterson debacle and the massive influx of peoples native to Central and South America is “browning” what has been historically a White Nationalist movement. Evangelicals will be hard pressed to view people of color as “others” when evangelicalism itself becomes a movement of the “others.”

    I have read the book, I know how the story ends. God’s Kingdom will come, his will will be done. I am concerned about my evangelical brothers and sisters, but I have not written them off. Neither has God, I believe.

  • Herm

    Your animosity is blinding you to the Spirit of truth, my only source for truth.

    This what your Bible “says” which you hold onto as your only source for truth:

    The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him [John 15:17]. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    John 1:9-13 (NIV2011)

    The Holy Spirit is the true light through whom Mary became pregnant with Jesus the Messiah and through whom all children born of Man are born of God [Matthew 3:16-17].

    This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

    Matthew 1:18 (NIV2011)

    Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    John 14:19-20 (NIV2011)

    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

    John 16:13 (NIV2011)

    In your less than 120 of earth’s rotations around its relatively insignificant sun, what is your best guess as to relatively how old, experienced, mature and knowledgeable children of God (first born of Man and then born of the Spirit) are to their Father who is in heaven? My Father knows no beginning except vicariously through his only begotten son, and through the ever-continuing love in empathy that he senses through each child born of Man graced the image of God (who is spirit).

    When you pray do you ever pray the “Lord’s prayer” by rote (according to whatever version of the Bible your church determined) in harmony with your church’s congregation? You know, the one beginning with “Our Father”? That is an example of a Pharisaical prayer.

    “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. “This, then, is how you should pray: “ ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

    Matthew 6:5-9 (NIV2011)

    My Father desires most extemporaneous prayer, not a memorized and expressed rote ritual of expression. My Father hears and acknowledges all prayer addressed to him. As I now live with and in the Spirit of truth, my prayers are continual, without ceasing, as my heart, soul, strength, mind is one with my Father’s heart, soul, strength, mind, which is spirit, not carnal, and not subject to any dependency on carnal language. Well, my Father isn’t dependent on carnal language but sometimes I express to him in my carnal language that paints the picture in my infant but developing heart and mind, not necessary in his (he knew what I was trying to say before I said it).

    Widuran, are you getting the picture yet? God doesn’t need us to live without end. We need God’s grace, as a welcoming and supporting family, to survive in the Spirit. We don’t have anything to serve God with except our love, adoration, and worship in the nature of relationship of all helpless carnal infants relative to their parents.

    Your dictatorial, narcissistic, and wrathful god is straight out of the ancient times when people of mankind actually worshiped a volcano god by throwing their virgin daughters into his crater. Your insistence of ignoring the destination by stopping to worship the road sign (the pointer, your Bible) insanely implies that you are afraid to continue the journey to the end. Are you afraid that God isn’t real, as real as your carnally tangible Bible?

  • Ron McPherson

    So beautifully stated. Amen!

  • vmelkon

    Which father didn’t need 2 sets of rules? Why didn’t he need 2 sets of rules?
    What research do you want me to do?

  • Alan, you have not responded to Bob Presnell’s comment. Any reason why? He has told you his “story,” his narrative and experience with the divine. Any thoughts? Can you disprove his experience? Can you disprove his claim that he has met God? This is his experience, not yours, so he is under no obligation to prove it to you. My dad was born with polio. At age 3 he was prayed for at Angeles Temple, Los Angeles by Ammie Simple McPherson. Instantly, the polio was gone. As far as I know his crutches are still on display there. Science doesn’t have all the answers, and never will. It is not a matter of discrediting religion or distrusting science. They are opposite sides of the same coin.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “I am correct the bible condemns slavery in a transitional period where slavery was the norm”

    Post the relevant passages you are alluding to.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Leviticus 25:44-46
    Exodus 21:2-6
    Exodus 21:7-11
    Exodus 21:20-21

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “It’s proved in millions of heart.”

    That’s your claim. It is not evidence or proof.

    “God meet me in 1972 and saved me”

    That’s your claim. Can you present evidence to prove your claim?

    “things that Dr.s can’t explain so for me God is real.”

    That is called an argument from ignorance. You claim you can’t explain it & because you can’t explain it you explain it as god.

    “and pray and speak in another language as the Spirit give the words and I know nothing about this”

    That’s your claim. Can you present evidence to prove your claim?

    “I don’t force what I believe on no one but I do try to convince.”{

    If you want to convince, you need to present evidence, not claims.

    “God bless”

    Which god?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Part of the problem I see here, and is one of the issues I have had with Bob Shiloh is both of you are dealing with propositional truth. Alan, you are dealing with truth based on empiricism and Bob’s take on truth is based on authority and the presuppositionalism that goes with that.”

    Part of the problem I see here is that you seem to think there is more than one truth. That is incorrect. Something is either true or it is not true.

    A proposition is either true or it is not true.

    Bob’s take ( as you called it) is based not on any sort of truth but rather it is based on personal subjective belief.

    “The Bible presents us with a grand narrative of meaning, belonging and duty to our fellow man. ”

    Are we talking about the same Bible? The one that lists the following as people that are to be killed because god said so?

    Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 )

    Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 )

    Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 )

    Death for Hitting Parent (Exodus 21:15 )

    Death for Cursing Parents (Leviticus 20:9 )

    Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 )

    Death to Followers of Other Religions ( according to the Bible, this is particularly important to god… it shows what is really important to god) (Exodus 22:19 & Deuteronomy 13:7-12 & Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

    Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

    Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 )

    Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 )

    The same Bible that condones slavery?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    ” Religion can and often does make sense in dealing with societies ills.”

    Really? How?

    ” How can science cure racism, mysogeny, homophobia, nationalism, and a host of other problems? It is the wrong tool for the task. Different tools for different tasks.”

    How can religion cure racism, mysogeny, homophobia, nationalism, ( using the Bible’s religions as my example) when the religion condones & demands racism, misogyny, homophobia and nationalism?

    Let’s not forget slavery. Bible says slavery is OK.

  • So very happy to see you are a Sabbath keeper. Too bad the majority don’t get it.
    Still don’t have Hebrews 4:9 quite right. This should be easy for you!

  • I appreciate your comment but find it hard to read without skepticism.

    “Their study finds a correlation between white American’s intolerance, and support for authoritarian rule” Which leads me to ask what is the basis for that correlation? Democracy benefits all the people which is why the Left’s lurch towards socialism is troubling.

    “While it is true that there has been a moderate swing to the far left in the Democratic Party,” is an understatement.
    “the swing to the far right amongst Republicans has become mainstream within that Party. While one can have a successful merger of socialism and democracy, that is not true of totalitarianism and democracy” is an overstatement.
    “government intruding into their lives but have no problems with it interfering in the lives of women” aka baby killing.
    “sexually “others” as the Left is sexually obsessed.

  • Herm

    There you go, again, judging others. When are you going to get it?

  • Nothing about that comment is judgmental. It is simply factual.

  • Herm

    Bob, you have no business even speaking positive or negative to my “rest” in the Lord, or anyone who does not have one. You’re playing a game in your own mind with no authority or any credentials to do so.

    You play so many gotcha’ games that only serve to put your ignorance on display. Your politics and your religion both belittle and demean others that you have no business judging or obstructing.

  • Ron McPherson

    I believe Jesus is God. Stop bearing false witness.
    Let’s try this again:
    “…the essence of God is not confined solely to the person of Jesus.”

    This statement conveys the idea that I believe God is not CONFINED (ie restricted) to Jesus. The only conclusion one can draw from this statement is that I do in fact believe Jesus to be God, but that I in turn do not believe God is limited to the person of Jesus alone. So yes, you’ve borne false witness against me continuously throughout this thread (not that I have any hopes that you’ll really care).

    Your insistence upon receiving an answer based solely on your own terms, coupled with your continued rejection of my explanation of beliefs, speaks to one more interested in condemning others than genuinely seeking answers. Your responses to me indicate you would even believe the apostle Peter to be a heretic apparently, given that I reiterated my beliefs based on the apostle’s own testimony that Jesus is the Son of God, which was good enough for Jesus but apparently not you. It stretches the bounds of incredulity that a professing Christian would reject such an answer.

    The demand for a yes or no answer gives the impression you believe that God IS in fact limited solely to the person of Jesus, which would mean Jesus in his humanity was great at multitasking – he ate fish with one hand and held the universe together with the other. That sounds more like Oneness Pentecostalism than Trinitarian. Odd for one like yourself who apparently believes the fate of one’s soul rests squarely upon having the precisely correct doctrine.

  • Ron McPherson

    You’re bearing false witness!

  • Bones

    Well it hasn’t helped you much, has it?

  • Bones

    “Gay atheists” – More like two reasons why you and your god want them dead.

  • Bones

    Lol derpy…if you believe your liar-in-chief then you’re another whose sold themselves out to the biggest bs artist ever seen.

    Oh and the pont is that the Talmud reflects Jewish thinking at the time.

    But that’s too difficult for the likes of morons like you.

  • Bones

    Yes we are. (P)rick – the defender of liars and bigots.

    Good work!

  • Bones

    Lol about looking like a fool.

    You’d know a lot about that hey Everett?

    Oh that’s right you can lie as much as you want.

  • Bones

    Yeah like lying.

    But people like you are content to lie about others.

  • Bones

    Did god sin when he committed genocide?

    That should be pretty clear.

  • Bones

    Nope….

    It’s funny how your god hates people you don’t like…..

  • Bones

    But it’s ok for you to lie though.

    Why do you hate people so much?

  • Bones

    Lol…..and your behaviour on here reminds us why we have nothing to do with your god.

    Well Done!

  • Bones

    You sure as hell ain’t.

  • Bones

    I hope you’re well my friend.

  • Bones

    lol, which church’s dogma is this?

  • Bones

    “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”

    Yep, like trump….

  • Bones

    Lol…Jesus was a progressive. that’s why they killed him.

    At least learn about first century Judaism specifically the different schools of pharisaism.

  • Bones

    Well that leaves you out then.

  • Bones

    Are you a moron?

    Yes or no.

  • Bones

    Lol. You clearly are a moron.

  • Bones

    (P)rick has to defend his antisemite and gay hating liars.

    Cos that’s what (P)rick does.

  • Bones

    You mean like the traditional interpretation about Jews?

  • Bones

    Lol…..and you come on here to vent your hatred against anyone who doesn’t follow your dogma.

    Oh dear you sanctimonious pricks are so easy to spot.

  • sandidad

    Benjamin Corey, you can try and twist the truth about the Bible but you homosexual lifestyle is an abomination against God. Period. We all have to answer to God for our sins, so will you. The Bible plainly says a man shouldn’t sleep with another man. Why is it so hard for you to understand that concept? I’ve studied the Bible and have listened to Billy and Franklin Graham preach all my life and have read their books, needless to say, you don’t have a clue about God’s word. It’s typical for sinners to twist the word of God to justify their sinful behaviors. Repent!

  • Bones

    You could have at least read some of those instead of just copying off a site.

    Sirach 16:8

    He did not spare the neighbors of Lot,* d

    abominable in their pride

    Wisdom 10:6-8

    Wisdom[a] rescued a righteous man when the ungodly were perishing;
    he escaped the fire that descended on the Five Cities.[b]
    7 Evidence of their wickedness still remains:
    a continually smoking wasteland,
    plants bearing fruit that does not ripen,
    and a pillar of salt standing as a monument to an unbelieving soul.
    8 For because they passed wisdom by,
    they not only were hindered from recognizing the good,
    but also left for mankind a reminder of their folly,
    so that their failures could never go unnoticed.

    Wisdom 19
    For the fate they deserved drew them on to this end,
    and made them forget what had happened,
    in order that they might fill up the punishment which their torments still lacked,
    5 and that thy people might experience[c] an incredible journey,
    but they themselves might meet a strange death.
    6 For the whole creation in its nature was fashioned anew,
    complying with thy commands,
    that thy children[d] might be kept unharmed.
    7 The cloud was seen overshadowing the camp,
    and dry land emerging where water had stood before,
    an unhindered way out of the Red Sea,

    2Enoch 10:4
    And those men said to me: This place, O Enoch, is prepared for those who dishonour God, who on earth practice sin against nature, which is child-corruption after the sodomitic fashion, magic-making, enchantments and devilish witchcrafts, and who boast of their wicked deeds, stealing, lies, calumnies, envy, rancour, fornication, murder, and who, accursed, steal the souls of men, who, seeing the poor take away their goods and themselves wax rich, injuring them for other men’s goods; who being able to satisfy the empty, made the hungering to die; being able to clothe, stripped the naked; and who knew not their creator, and bowed to the soulless (and lifeless) gods, who cannot see nor hear, vain gods, (who also) built hewn images and bow down to unclean handiwork, for all these is prepared this place among these, for eternal inheritance.

    Even Gen Rab. XLI says those destroyed were for ‘ immoral desires’…

    https://archive.org/stream/RabbaGenesis/midrashrabbahgen027557mbp#page/n383

    T.Benj 9:1
    “9 1 And I believe that there will be also evil-doings among you, from the words of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and shall perish, all save a few, and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of the Lord shall not be among, you, for straightway He shall take it away.”

    Oh and Philo – apparently these gay people liked to screw married women as well….

    “”The greatest cause of all iniquity

    Is found in overmuch prosperity.”

    (135) As men, being unable to bear discreetly a satiety of these things, get restive like cattle, and become stiff-necked, and discard the laws of nature, pursuing a great and intemperate indulgence of gluttony, and drinking, and unlawful connections; for not only did they go mad after women, and defile the marriage bed of others, but also those who were men lusted after one another, doing unseemly things, and not regarding or respecting their common nature, and though eager for children, they were convicted by having only an abortive offspring; but the conviction produced no advantage, since they were overcome by violent desire; (136) and so, by degrees, the men became accustomed to be treated like women, and in this way engendered among themselves the disease of females, and intolerable evil; for they not only, as to effeminacy and delicacy, became like women in their persons, but they made also their souls most ignoble, corrupting in this way the whole race of man, as far as depended on them. At all events, if the Greeks and barbarians were to have agreed together, and to have adopted the commerce of the citizens of this city, their cities one after another would have become desolate, as if they had been emptied by a pestilence.”

    FFS at least read your sources.

    Because you’ve just been shown to be a completely dishonest merkin.

    As for Chrysotom and Augustine, by the fourth century CE homosexuals were burned alive under Christian rule.

    So yeah.. they hated gay people….

  • Bones

    Except it isn’t.

    you shouldn’t be basing your beliefs on the attitudes of people 2000 years ago.

    They didn’t think much of women either.

  • Bones

    Well we can never expect you to analyse yourself.

  • Bones

    Lol….you really have no shame do you?

    Caught straight out lying about a dead person and you just think it will go away.

    That’s the hypocrisy of you sanctimonious wankers who hate other people’s sin.

    Yet thnks their sin doesn’t matter.

    Here’s news.

    Your shit stinks.

  • Bones

    Lol…..hey Everett.

    Who you going to lie about this time?

    Oh that’s right. That’s a virtue among conservatives.

  • You may see it that way. All I see is Lawlessness abounding. This is what God meant when He said, “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” My bet is that these people were the Progressives of that age!

  • Here is a good synopsis of Progressive behavior:

    Jude 1:15-19
    (15) to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (16) These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. (17) But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: (18) how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. (19) These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

    See that. They do Not have the Spirit?

  • apoxbeonyou

    God’s word is Jesus, not a mad-made book. Try again.

  • Herm

    Bob, God is spirit. God is not carnal. Ungodly lusts are those which in everything do not do to others as they would have others do to them. Intimidation, manipulation, coercion and subjugation of any other is ungodly. Only attitudes relative to love among carnal beings can be compared to being ungodly or godly (like God). What is written in the law that, if you do, you will live by? What is the greatest command that all the law and prophets hang on? What is the sum of the law?

    If you are alluding to homosexuality as ungodly, then according to the law proffered by the Son of God, if such an intimate relationship is shared between reciprocally consenting adults (in everything each doing to the other as the other would to have done to them) is truly godly according to the law.

    Why would you even think ungodly would be progressive, liberal with empathy, liberal with forgiveness, liberal with what God has given that could not be earned, and liberal by giving one’s life that another might live? Perhaps, you should read the beatitudes to intellectually understand what godly is.

    If God lives, knows no beginning, and will know no end, why do you insinuate God ever wants to go back and stagnate? God is, and will always, forever, be growing in knowledge gained from shared experience in play, work, and rest. God is spirit who you can only begin to understand when you exercise the image of God graced all of mankind, male and female.

    Bob, you don’t know the Spirit of truth living with and in your heart, soul, strength, mind (which is spirit in the image of God) without pause, without end, forever. Then, and only then, can you know the value of growing up/forward (progressive) and liberally loving others as you would have others liberally love you. You misspeak for a god you do not know.

  • Herm

    You have studied the Bible and listened to Billy and Franklin (who is definitely not Billy) Graham preach all your life and have read their books and yet you, by your fruit, still do not live with and in the Spirit of truth (the one Teacher), the Messiah (the one Instructor) and the one Father (who is spirit in heaven). You tell me how any intimate relationship between two reciprocally consensual adults of mankind, and/or of God, trespasses against in everything do to others as you would have others do to you (the sum of the law and prophets). You tell me how any reciprocally loving relationship trespasses against love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind, and love your neighbor (gay or not) as you love yourself (empathy), the commands that all the law and prophets hang on, so that any might live. From my perspective, as an infant child of God born of the Spirit, it is you who must reconsider (repent) from what is most abominable to God (like coveting, intimidation, manipulation, coercion and subjugation of another) if you choose to live with and in God bound in all love, beginning today and forever more.

  • Herm

    Come on Widuran, are you shook that much? Look at your too quick and too short reply. Spell check didn’t help you.

    Help me, please. Tell me what is “holier then though” and “misquoted” about verses that were taken verbatim directly out of the Bible. I would be glad to send you all in full context, if it would help you. I can personally testify that it really would help you if you had a Teacher who could guide you into all truth as you could bear.

  • rationalobservations?

    All religions are similar in as much as they are all fraudulent inventions of men who seek wealth from, and power over: other men.
    Yours is no different and you merely have faith because you have been indoctrinated to believe and believe because you have been brainwashed with faith. All the religionists who are similarly indoctrinated with faiths you dismiss say the same things you say while dismissing your nonsense in favour of another brand of similar nonsense.
    Your bunkum remains debunked and my happy, healthy state of life long sobriety and service to my wife, family, charity and the wider global community put your shabby failed attempt at an insult to shame. Shame on you, Bob!
    Perhaps you merely prove that “religion is the opiate” it has been observed to be in the case of those still held in thrall too that garbage.

  • rationalobservations?

    Have you stopped laughing long enough to review the evidence of the existence of the Roman god-man “Jesus” and the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” – and find that there is none, Bob?

  • rationalobservations?

    The Bible identifies different categories of slaves including female Hebrew slaves, male Hebrew slaves, non-Hebrew and hereditary slaves. These were subject to different regulations.

    Female Hebrews could be sold by their fathers and enslaved for life (Exodus 21:7-11), but there were some limits to this.

    Male Hebrews could sell themselves into slavery for a six-year period to eliminate their debts, after which they might go free. However, if the male slave had been given a wife and had children with her, they would remain his master’s property. They could only stay with their family by becoming permanent slaves (Exodus 21:2-5). Evangelical Christians, especially those who subscribe to Biblical inerrancy, will commonly emphasize this debt bondage and try to minimize the other forms of race-based chattel slavery when attempting to excuse the Bible for endorsing slavery.[citation needed]

    Non-Hebrews, on the other hand, could (according to Leviticus 25:44) be subjected to slavery in exactly the way that it is usually understood. The slaves could be bought, sold and inherited when their owner died. This, by any standard, is race- or ethnicity-based, and Leviticus 25:44-46 explicitly allows slaves to be bought from foreign nations or foreigners living in Israel. It does say that simply kidnapping Hebrews to enslave them is a crime punishable by death (Deuteronomy 24:7), but no such prohibition exists regarding foreigners. War captives could be made slaves, assuming they had refused to make peace (this applied to women and children — men were simply killed), along with the seizure of all their property (Deuteronomy 20:10-15).

    Hereditary slaves were born into slavery and there is no apparent way by which they could obtain their freedom.

    So the Bible endorses various types of slavery, see below — though Biblical literalists only want to talk about one version and claim that it wasn’t really so bad.

    “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. 8If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. 11If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.”

    Deuteronomy 15:12-18, however, applies the same standards to female and male slaves, with verse 18 stating, “Your female slave, also, you shall treat in the same way. You must not be reluctant to let your slave go free, since the service they have given you for six years was worth twice a hired man’s salary; then also the Lord, your God, will bless you in everything you do.”

  • Ron McPherson

    “…you homosexual lifestyle is an abomination against God…It’s typical for sinners to twist the word of God to justify their sinful behaviors. Repent!”

    Oh great. Here comes another one charging onto the site thinking he’s speaking for God. By the way, Ben isn’t gay. Pretty sure God knows that. You just demonstrated perfectly why man is not equipped to judge.

    Hard for you to understand, but not everyone who believes differently than you about this subject is trying to justify “their sinful behaviors.” Maybe you should delete this post and start all over.

  • D.M.S.

    There’s no such book as sirach.
    Did. That come from Grimms faerytales?

  • D.M.S.

    God/Jesus doesn’t want Gays or atheist dead. He just wants them to turn away from their chosen sin.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Your belief is mistaken.

    You have claimed that “”I am correct the bible condemns slavery in a transitional period where slavery was the norm””

    Post the relevant passages from the Bible that state this & that condemn slavery.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    You forgot to include the new testament’s view on slavery:

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 )

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 )

  • sandidad

    Wilduran, it’s the war on whites from all directions, even a war on our greatest Evangelist. Seems the dolts on this post are followers of Benjamin Corey’s lying blog.

  • Lots of cultures had God’s. So i guess they were not ancient Atheists.

  • Questioning

    Factual in what way exactly… please elucidate and give evidence of your facts.

  • I don’t see the verses where the bible endorses slavery. I see the verses that tell them how slaves are to be treated.

  • What makes your situation any different than a similar religious person who says “my happy, healthy state of life long sobriety and service to my wife, family, charity and the wider global community?” I’ll tell you what. The religious person has hope of an afterlife that he will participate in. You have nothing but the grave in your future. Why should you care that two billion of us participate in religion whether we are brainwashed or not. How does this impact your life?

  • The statement implies people who practice the Sabbath understand the bible better than those who do not. This is from Psalm 111:10.

  • rationalobservations?

    There is so much barbarity among the confusion, contradiction, nonsense, historical inaccuracies and scientific absurdity that it’s easy to miss things.
    Thank you for this addition to the mountain of evidence that condemns all versions of bibles as malignant garbage.

  • rationalobservations?

    A declining minority of foolish folk claim an undetected and undetectable god-man named Jesus and a god named Yahweh exist. The third largest and fastest growing human cohort believe in no gods and the rest may believe in other gods but do not believe in yours.
    Religion is in accelerating decline in the developed world because the ddwindling rump of foolish and gullible religionists are confounded by two simple words:
    PROVE IT.
    The onus remains upon you and you fail constantly to answer the challenge.

  • Bones

    Zzzzzzz.

    (P)rick has to hold his bigoted mates hands.

    (P)rick- “Oh please let my friends spew their views that the nazis were a gay plot.”

    You really a f###ing goose.

    And exhibit one on how conservatives are hypocritical morons.

    But do keep posting.

  • Bones

    Oh I see your mum let you back on your computer.

    The adults are talking here.

    You go back to your land of make believe.

  • Bones

    Thats why he said to kill them.

    And if they dont stop being gay hes going to burn them forever.

    Because god loves gay people.

    Now run along….and take your hateful myths with you.

  • Bones

    What a shame Christians believe that their Christ is interested in their personal dogma when they are complete arseholes.

    Jesus could have just wrapped it up and said “hey, dont be arseholes to each other”. That would’ve been a far more effective message. But not even the disciples got that message.

    Maybe you should stop thinking about what people do with their arseholes and just stop being one.

    Here endeth the lesson.

  • Bones

    Lol save the white people.

    What a stupid f###wit.

    Btw Billy Graham was an antisemite who lied about it and championed genocide in Vietnam.

    No wonder you love him.

  • Bones

    Derpy, you’ve already been shown to a complete and utter liar who is more interested in their own ideology.

    Not only a liar but stupid and ignorant as well.

    There’s your trinity….

  • Bones

    I’m leaning more towards ‘no’ myself.

    He was a liberal progressive rabbi heavily influenced by the Hillel school.

  • Ron McPherson

    The scary thing is that there are millions of sandidads and Widurans in the U.S. who spew hate and false narratives against others while actually believing they represent Christianity. They get their propaganda reinforced from the pulpit every Sunday and FoxNews throughout the week. It’s the same group that claims Trump is Christian, Obama is Muslim, that white Christians are being discriminated against, and that the Prince of Peace will torture ‘unrepentant’ gays.

  • Questioning

    Well, that’s one interpretation, ie opinion. To describe it as “factual” and try to use it to elevate yourself and diminish someone else simply shows you do not understand the bible as well as you think you do.

  • You offer no opinion on the interpretation. Is it because you cannot understand even a simple verse like Psalm 111:10 or because you have no answer for it? Yet you comment on my understanding not realizing you are not even in my shadow on this issue.

  • Ron McPherson

    Lol! You honestly come off as delusional. My direct quote:
    “I believe Jesus is God”

  • Ron McPherson

    Below are my direct quotes, on seven separate occasions, over the last several days in direct response to your accusations. Through it all, you rejected them, continuing to insist I’m a false Christian, merely because I didn’t frame my answer in your purposely simplistic terms. Your antics are deplorable. This exchange is available for all to see if they care to verify. Yep, you’ve born false witness against my confession in Jesus. But the worst part is that you keep lying about it

    Response 1: “I personally believe Jesus to be the risen Savior, Son of the living God.”

    Response 2: “If you’re instead asking if I believe he is divine, then yes.”

    Response 3: “I’ve already affirmed that I believe Christ is the risen Lord and Savior, that I believe in his divinity and I believe him to be Son of the living God.”

    Response 4: “I’ve already affirmed, multiple times, that I believe Jesus to be the Son of God as he claimed in the verses you posted. I’ve affirmed multiple times that I believe him to be the crucified and risen Savior and Lord – my Savior and Lord. I believe him to be the Messiah. I believe in his deity – God dwelt among us, the perfect manifestation of God.”

    Response 5: “I’ve repeatedly and continuously affirmed my faith in Jesus as the Son of God…I’ve affirmed I believe in his deity, his resurrection, that he’s both Savior and Lord, that he’s the Messiah…the essence of God is not confined solely to the person of Jesus.”

    Response 6: “I’ve repeatedly and continuously affirmed my faith in Jesus as the Son of God…I’ve affirmed I believe in his deity, his resurrection, that he’s both Savior and Lord, that he’s the Messiah…the essence of God is not confined solely to the person of Jesus.”

    Response 7: “I BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD…the essence of God is not confined solely to the person of Jesus. This statement conveys the idea that I believe God is not CONFINED (ie restricted) to Jesus. The only conclusion one can draw from this statement is that I do in fact believe Jesus to be God, but that I in turn do not believe God is limited to the person Jesus.”

  • Ron McPherson

    Widuran:
    Do you believe Jesus is God?

    Ron:
    I believe Jesus is God

    Widuran:
    You’re avoiding the question

  • Bones

    Over here they would be seen as extremists.

  • Bones

    Lol…the arsehole doesn’t like being called out…

    Yep….loves pointing the finger at others this one does.

  • Bones

    Lol….you’re so vain you’ve made your god in your own image.

    It’s a prick too.

    Now there’s a surprise.

  • Ron McPherson

    Widuran:
    You deny Jesus is God

    Ron:
    I believe Jesus is God, so you’re bearing false witness.

    Widuran:
    No, you’re bearing false witness

  • Bones

    Lol….. you lie because you enjoy it don’t you.

    You love the feeling of being superior to others.

    Has religion made you like this?

  • Bones

    You don’t have one, moron.

  • Bones

    Lol…..widuran hates progressives….his god hates progressives…..

    Widuran’s god feeds his hate.

  • Bones

    You hate people so much you seek them out to tell them.

    Why does it make you feel good?

  • Bones

    I ain’t your boy, moron.

  • Bones

    Yep, the bs meter has gone off the scale with this idiot.

  • Bones

    Your sucking up to him is hilarious, moron.

    Once again shows how hypocritical you morons are.

  • Bones

    You ain’t the truth, derp.

    In fact those who killed the Christ were like you.

    Vindictive self righteous arseholes.

  • Bones

    Yep.

  • Bones

    Wrong as usual derpy.

    That seems to all you’re capable of.

  • Bones

    For morons like you – yes.

  • Bones

    Lol….clearly you don’t.

    The traditional interpretation of the Jews in the New Testament was they were children of satan….ask Chrystostom, Luther and hitler…..

  • Bones

    Lol…..Widuran Wanker”hey I’m going on this site to tell these guys how much I hate them.

    It’ll work a treat.”

    Moron!

  • Bones

    Yeah because your god will torture anyone who disagrees with you.

    Funny that.

    Another one who doesn’t get it.

  • Bones

    Nah, that’s the thing about you types.

    You think your shit doesn’t stink.

    And you can’t handle it when told how bad you actually smell.

  • Bones

    I’ve been told I speak Klingon.

  • Bones

    Bob’s part of the new religion of Trumpism.

  • Bones

    No wonder you don’t have a clue about anything if you only listen to those two clowns.

    What does the bible say about lying, antisemitsm and genocide all of which Billy Graham has done or advocated?

  • Bones

    Fundamentalists hate Jesus. That’s why they killed him.

  • Bones

    Lol….

  • Bones

    Yes but what is your position on the filioque? Or the hypostatic union?

  • Bones

    They’re the same ones who crucified the Christ.

  • Bones

    Well it’s not surprising that you equate rapists with gay people.

    But then you are a complete and utter idiot.

  • Ron McPherson

    LOL!!

  • Ron McPherson

    He couldn’t get elected in America. Evangelicals would see to it.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    So after you have claimed “the bible condemns slavery in a transitional period where slavery was the norm”” and are asked to present the Bible passages that say this, you are not able to.

    In other words, you are lying.

  • While it is good to be skeptical it is also good to be honest about one’s biases and to be open to constructive criticism. The great American experiment is not perfect, nor is either Party’s plan for America. Blind genuflection to a romanticized depiction of democracy without an honest reflection on just whom that depiction benefits and who it does not is simply blind. It is also, unchristian. Democracy is supposed to benefit all the people, I agree, it never has. If you cannot see that, then I pity you. One of the goals in a healthy society should be a government that is for the people…working towards an egalitarian society.

    Unfortunately, majority rule does not always have that in mind. Disenfranchisement of those not in power, those who have a weaker voice is always a temptation in any society. America is no exception. This is the area that conservative American Christianity has been prone to stumble most. Aligning themselves with the powerful, the wealthy, the entire military industrial complex, a system that wallows in self aggrandizement, disguising their self worship as “patriotism,” has no place in a Christian social worldview.

    I guess we can thank Billy Graham for the Religious Right’s misrepresentation of the “evils” of socialism. There is much I admire about the man, but his fear mongering about the godless intents of communism during the Cold War, was painted with a rather broad brush, leading to a general tendency among conservatives to connect a few failed socialist countries with the horrors of a totalitarian communist state. The democratic socialist countries where it has flourished are ignored in favor of simplistic view of democracy. A society that takes care of the elderly, the sick, the young, the homeless, that provides for the least of these may be a socialist society, but it is far closer to the ideals of the Kingdom Christ talked about then a society where one group of people get the best seats at the table, while everyone outside that group has to be content with the crumbs that fall to the floor.

    If you are unaware of how that played out amongst White Christians in the South for 150 years, then, again, I pity you.

    Ah, “baby killing,” the great conservative Christian diversionary tactic. Way to deflect, Bob! I suggest you do a little research into why the Moral Majority introduced this tactic in 1979. Look up Bob Jones University and Green v. Kennedy for the truth behind the fiction. Here’s a link to get you started:

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133

  • Herm

    I see nothing humorous in your spiritual ignorance, only sadness. You did catch me, although, for in fact I am no more a Christian under the teaching, rule and blessing of any church government on earth than I would have been an Israelite (chosen of God) who yelled to crucify Jesus, the Christ, under the teaching, rule and blessing of the Pharisees, teachers of the law, and the high priest Caiaphas.

    The basic answer for all children of God, siblings of the Messiah, is the eternal assurance that the Spirit of truth lives with and in us each, and all of us, of God without pause and forever without end. I don’t need your, or your denomination of carnal worship’s, blessing. I have my Father’s blessing living with and in me. My Father and all the family of God insists on serving me, an infant of God, to grow like them out of the all love we share from each our heart, our soul, our strength, our mind that we have for each other, as we would have each other love us.

    I am personally an infant sibling student (disciple) of Christ, not a card carrying, registered “christian”. I passed the Messiah’s prerequisites as stated in your Bible:

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27 (NIV2011)

    You do not carry your cross that others might live. You do not hate enough to repent (reconsider) from all carnal familial tradition that you may learn fresh and anew as a new born child of God, an infant born of the Spirit. By your fruit of embracing traditions and judgments of Man you are known. I have no need to ask you any basic questions, that you could not possibly understand without the Spirit of truth guiding you into all truth as you can bear, which you could bear, today, much more than Peter, Paul, James and John, but only if you opened your heart and mind, in all humility, to the one Teacher.

    You remain loved.

  • Ron McPherson

    “I have to agree with you Sandidad,
    I was into this progressive Christian trend thing for quite some time but it never really felt right“

    And sandidad’s version DOES feel right? Below are some direct quotes from sandidad:

    “California is a “shit hole” that’s as bad as any third world country in the world?”

    “…it’s the war on whites from all directions”

    “America is in a sad state of affairs with idiots like you and the socialistic, communistic, Islamic Democrat Party.”

    “Maybe we’ll meet someday during the next civil war but on the opposite side. This Patriot will die fighting before I’ll allow you socialistic, communistic, Islamic goons destroy the greatest nation I grew up in. TRAITOR!!!!”

    “Let me remind you and all of your LGBT and P friends once we lose our republic and America becomes an Islamic nation under Sharia Law all of you perverts will be the first ones to be beheaded.”

    “President Trump’s election was a massive movement to stop the lying, corrupt, Godless, Communist, Islamic Democrat Party from destroying America’s great Republic”

    “To quote Forrest Gump: “Stupid is as stupid does” and you and your drug induced brain dead liberal cohorts fit that description!!!!!!”

    “All of you are habitual liars. You couldn’t see the truth if it smacked you in the face. You are so ignorant you still can’t comprehend 8 years of Muslim Obama’s lies”

    “The Godless, baby killing, socialistic, communistic, Islamic Democratic”

    “The righteous Left who voted for a Muslim president who mocks God and praises Allah”,

    “The righteous Left who supports a president who allowed perverted men into women’s restrooms.”

    “The righteous Left who supports LGBT lifestyles and are now promoting paedophilia.”

  • Alan, I can understand your skepticism. Part of your problem, and the problem I see repeated over and over with atheists, is their assumptions that the “correct” way to understand the Bible is literally, as fundamentalists do. The assumption being that the Bible is a book, singular, written by one person, God. It is neither. It is a collection (and the agreed upon collections vary), of many books, poems, letters, histories and various, at times, conflicting, theological reflections. To assume all these different writers, from different social milieu, with different agendas present a unified code of conduct and view of the divine is simply poor literary criticism. It is imposing a priori assumptions on the texts.

    There is quite an evolution of philosophical thought considering the nature of God and man’s responsibility to fellow man within the pages of the Bible. Do not oversimplify things in order to build an easy target.

    Secondly, and this is where I can sympathize most with you, the church has shown itself to be a remarkably poor imitator of Christ. Misogyny, slavery and racism in the American South, sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, Lutheran complacency in Nazi Germany and conservative American Christianity’s current homophobia, xenophobia, misogyny and racism. It’s not a pretty picture.

    This, however, is not the picture of the “Kingdom of God” that Jesus challenged us with. Jesus is not the problem, we are. The social construct that his example and teaching provided us has never been consistently followed but has been co-opted or diluted by merging with what the apostle Paul called the “principalities and powers” of this world. A more modern term would be the military-industrial complex.

    Does a powerful, hyper-religious oligarchy wrapped in the symbolism of the Cross pose a risk to democracy? Yes, it does. It also poses a risk to Christianity itself. If allowed to continue to its logical conclusion, the mechanisms of the Religious Right in America will not only destroy democracy, but Christianity itself.

    Lastly, atheism is no more “scientific” than religion is scientific. You are conflating a philosophical view with science. Science tells us nothing about either. Atheism is simply a philosophical view as is religion. Philosophy is like belly buttons, everyone has one, (except my uncle-in-law…a surgery removed it). If atheism makes sense to you, so be it. Frankly, what concerns me most is how we treat others.

  • Questioning

    As usual you are trying to redirect the argument since you cannot address the point directly. My opinion is not relevant here. You accused someone else of a wrong opinion and then rolled yours out as “factual” when clearly, it is nothing more than your opinion. Then finally you attempt, once again, to elevate yourself above me with the “not even in my shadow” hoity toity bs. From where I sit your shadow is pretty tiny and getting smaller with each wrong headed response you make. BTW, when is that “biggest political scandal is US history” going to break. I would not want to miss it.

  • Questioning

    Ron beat me to it and covered much of the same ground I wanted to cover, Frankly, I wonder if people like Crawdad and perhaps even you, really understand what sin is. With one hysterical, fearful post, Crawdad managed to bear false witness against a former POTUS, calling him a muslim, mocker of God yada, yada, These are outright lies so whoops there’s biggie sin number 2. Furthermore he lies and bears false witness again, creating a whole class of people he refers to as the “Savage Left”, claiming they somehow invented Roe Vs Wade and are ruining the country. Want to see some more clankers, just reread Ron’s post. He lives in fear and apparently will believe any lie or half truth he hears if it supports his already formed bias.

    Another poster here somewhere made the statement that so much of today’s evangelical mindset is all about expediency. That hits the nail squarely on the head. For example back when Clinton was in the middle of his scandal, evangelicals were appalled. There was wailing and gnashing of teeth. Fast forward to Trump and note the difference. Franklin Graham even went so far as to say it was none of our business and it should be between the President and his wife. During the Obama/Romney campaign the BGEA even went so far as to remove Mormonism as a cult from their website, to throw their support behind Romney. Franklin Graham is a poster child for evangelical hypocrisy and political expediency. Here we have a POTUS who has been accused of affairs over and over, perhaps paying hush money to keep them quiet, and who, by his own words, is an admitted, gleeful sexual predator, yet evangelicals when it comes to Trump are now all about forgiveness, mercy, eye winking and political expediency. It’s sickening to watch and we wonder why this kind of “Christianity” is under attack.

  • Your debating skill is nil. I did not accuse anyone of anything. You can’t read and comprehend.
    Rather than worry about my replies to Herm find some time to study the bible.
    The scriptural reference is Psalm 111:10. Where is your analysis?

  • If you are not seeing the news about the scandal you may want to try other sources and question why they are not covering it. Don’t worry though it will be in your face at the end of the day.

  • Religion killed Jesus. This is the great irony of the Cross. Religious people thought they were doing God a Favor by killing His Son. It is not much different today. Well intentioned religious people attempt to crucify and destroy the very things Jesus stood for. In a way, I don’t blame them. Jesus is subversive to the ways of Rome. The call to carry the cross of living for others first, cruciformly is not an easy life to except. “He who seeks to preserve his life (living for self) will lose it” (will not experience aeon life). So what we have seen and are seeing is how releigion can be twisted to serve self-interest and tribalism. It has always been that way. It’s not that people want to kill Jesus, it’s just that they cannot except what he says without subverting the message, making it more palatable.

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s honest to God scary that there are fanatics like sandidad. They truly believe that hate-filled crap they post. I just wish they wouldn’t invoke the name of Jesus while doing it.

    Many right wingers hate Obama, a man who professes faith in Christ, a decent man faithful to his family, for 3 big reasons: 1) the color of his skin 2) he is a Democrat 3) his name sounds Middle East which equates to Muslim in their minds. So ANY “news” report, Facebook post, tweet, or email criticizing Obama will be swallowed hook, line, and sinker regardless of how off the rails it is. They’re ready to believe ANYTHING bad about Obama, which makes them lap up Trump even more. Because they feed off FoxNews and Breitbart, and because their right-wing pastors have their head stuck up Trump’s rear (ya know, since the lying serial adulterer narcissistic Trump must be a Christian now because he’s pro life and wants to build a wall and more bombs).

  • D.M.S.

    My mum died on June 8th 1973.
    Thank you for helping me to think of her, again today.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Alan, I can understand your skepticism. Part of your problem, and the problem I see repeated over and over with atheists, is their assumptions that the “correct” way to understand the Bible is literally, as fundamentalists do.”

    You are completely mistaken. Atheism has nothing to do with assuming the Bible must be taken literally.

    In fact, atheism has NOTHING to do with the Bible.

    Atheism is a non-belief in the existence of any deity because the atheist has seen no evidence for the existence of any deity. This non-belief is not restricted to just the deity described in the Bible, it extends to all deities from all religions.

    When atheists discuss the Bible it is generally to point out (to the theists that believe the Bible) how flawed the Bible is and why it is a bad source for moral guidance. And also to point out all the miraculous claims the Bible contains & to ask the Bible theists if they have any actual evidence for any of the claims.

    “The assumption being that the Bible is a book, singular, written by one person, God. ”

    No assumption about that. Atheists can point out the numerous errors in the Bible ( scientific, historical, and geographical), point out the bad moral laws ( claimed to be handed down by a god) contained in the Bible, and point out all the miraculous claims in the Bible and ask for the evidence to prove the claims.

    The fact is, a god COULD exist ( the time to believe this is when you see evidence for god’s existence) but the Bible is a complete wok of fiction.

    Arguing about what the Bible contains isn’t an argument about a god. It is arguing about what a book says/claims.

    “There is quite an evolution of philosophical thought considering the nature of God and man’s responsibility to fellow man within the pages of the Bible.”

    And none of it contains any evidence that a god actually exists, so all of it can be dismissed or placed on par with thoughtful examination of the Star Trek shows or the Lord of the Rings books, or one of the numerous mythologies that exist.

    ” Do not oversimplify things in order to build an easy target.”

    Oversimplify? Putting aside the error filled Bible, the argument can be presented as:

    Is there any evidence that can be presented to prove a deity of any kind exists?

    If the answer is yes, present the evidence.

    If the answer is no, there is no reason to believe a deity exists.

    If the answer is there is no evidence and belief must be based on faith, then belief in a deity is equal to belief in pixies, leprechauns, dragons, etc.

    “Secondly, and this is where I can sympathize most with you, the church has shown itself to be a remarkably poor imitator of Christ. Misogyny, slavery and racism in the”

    If you read the Bible, you will find that misogyny, slavery, and racism are part of what the new testament says.

    Misogyny:

    1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    Slavery:

    Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

    1 Timothy 6:1-2 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.

    As for what does the new testament tell us Jesus said about slavery, here it is:

    Luke 12:46 that slave’s master will come on a day he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know. He will cut him to pieces[a] and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and didn’t prepare himself or do it will be severely beaten. 48 But the one who did not know and did things deserving of blows will be beaten lightly. Much will be required of everyone who has been given much. And even more will be expected of the one who has been entrusted with more

    … in other words, Jesus says nothing about slavery being wrong.

    Racism:

    Jesus says he is here only for the Jews.

    Matthew 15:24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel.”

    There is a lot of racism, misogyny, and slavery condoned & ordered in the old testament. If you want to argue that it isn’t important because it is from the old testament, then you must also dismiss the rest of the old testament for the same reason.

    “Lastly, atheism is no more “scientific” than religion is scientific.”

    What is your point? Neither atheism nor religion has ever claimed to be scientific. You are creating a straw man argument.

    Other things that are not scientific?

    Not believing in:

    – leprechauns
    – dragons
    – pixies
    – the Loch Ness monster
    – bigfoot

    “Atheism is simply a philosophical view as is religion.”

    Atheism is a philosophical view the same way that not believing in leprechauns or the tooth fairy is a philosophical view.

    As for religion, there is no doubt that religions exist.

    But so far, there has been no evidence presented for any deity from any religion existing.

    If you want to make comparisons, be honest. Instead of dishonestly comparing atheism with religion you must compare atheism with it’s opposite: belief in a deity.

  • rationalobservations?

    You appear to have cottoned on to that fact that most people are good without religion and many people are good in spite of religion.
    The realistic acceptance that there is a too short period of time in which to cherish life between nonexistence and eternal nonexistence makes many of us appreciate our own life and value the lives of others even more.
    A rapidly growing majority of folk who live within the least religious and most peaceful nations the world has ever seen are demonstrating daily that we do not need religion or undetectable deities to be good. We are better.

    In answer to your question: “Why should you care that two billion of us participate in religion whether we are brainwashed or not. How does this impact your life?”
    I don’t care if you believe in garbage in your own mind, home and garbage dump (place of worship). There are far fewer than 2 million of you, but that’s beside the point: The problem is that you cannot confine your garbage and your anti-humanitarian taboos to yourself and your fellow religionists.
    Your attempt to spread lies within comment columns and to influence the ignorant and the gullible “impacts” my higher moral standards and respect for the truth.
    Keep your religious BS to yourself and we will be the best of cyber-friends. The more garbage you spread, the longer I will debunk that bunkum.
    Keep your garbage to yourself and we can all get along beautifully. Deal?

    https://i0.wp.com/akosbalogh.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/14444761_1426658324028442_7289900052337451843_o.png
    http://thunk.co/img/cc0cfb12.jpg
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iUIGzxa4EWQ/WdQVa-PhHxI/AAAAAAAABcQ/i3IUzFMnicMVWWz5nXU94tE6XIXFvshrQCJoC/w705-h960/at.jpg

  • D.M.S. Is a pox upon humanity. You really shouldn’t subject yourself to the hatred. I blocked him/her/it a long time back.

  • Questioning

    Fear and paranoia are the only things that make any sense. Unfortunately in this case they are pressed into the bible and wrapped with an American flag.

  • Questioning

    “Still don’t have Hebrews 4:9 quite right.”

    So you did not say Herm was wrong? Must have been some other Bob Shiloh.

  • D.M.S.

    Scripture is correct when it states that He
    ( GOD ) gave the homosexuality community over to a depraved mind.
    It’s quite evident on this page.

  • No. I did not say Herm was wrong; I said he not quite right.. You don’t even understand a simple sentence.

  • sandidad

    Wullaj, I know God’s word is Jesus and the Bible was inspired by God. I was referencing Billy Graham’s book “The Journey” and Franklin Graham’s book “Through the Eyes of My Father”. Those are two great inspiring books, you should read them sometime. Billy Graham was the greatest Evangelist in the 20th century and Franklin Graham is following in his Father’s footsteps. It’s sad someone like Benjamin Corey is trying to tear them down.

  • My first response was flagged as spam. Happens all the time. Will break it up into two parts:
    Alan, thanks for the timely response. The atheist obsession with the Bible and disproving it based on a literal understanding does indeed seem to be the atheist response, so I would disagree that atheism or atheists have nothing to do with the Bible. In fact, they make much a do about it. The Bible is a product of the environment of its time, which in fact, spanned a couple millennia. I would agree with you, there are some pretty awful assumptions about social interaction within its pages.
    A great deal of your objections deal with your refusal to see scripture in light of its cultural context, which varies quite a bit over 2000+ years. Like a typical fundamentalist, you lift scriptures out of their context and judge them in light of 21st century sociology. Not entirely fair. Now, if you agree with fundamentalists that the correct way to apply/understand the Bible is to apply its teaching verbatim and unchanged, then we have a problem, which you have eluded to very verbosely.
    When we get to Paul and slavery, for example, fundamentalists argued vehemently, that slavery was “Biblical.” It’s one of the reasons the South seceded from the Union. Rather than see the implications and trajectory of Paul’s “there is no male, female, slave or free,” for we are all “one in Christ,” or to see Paul’s imploring of Onisimus’ owner to treat him like a brother in Christ as a rejection of the institution, Southern Christian slave owners simply took Paul out of context as you have done.
    Paul and women…I get a kick out of this. Paul was probably one of the most progressive men in the Bible, bar none. Women were an integral part of both leadership and financing of the early church’s mission. He praised women and mentioned them in his letters to the various churches. Literary criticism has shown that the couple of times he seems to mention the need for them not to teach or to remain silent are later glosses, as church leaders began to assert more control over women toward the end of the first century. The same with his teaching on headship, it’s about servanthood as a husband to the wife, not about controlling or lording over her.

  • Second part:
    Jesus and parables that seem violent: it’s a parable not to be read literally. Parables rely on the understanding of the hearer, and use word pictures to impart spiritual truth rather than literal. (See once again you are understanding as a fundamentalist). One of my favorites is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Fundamentalists will tell you: “see, Jesus is describing hell and eternal torment.” Sorry, not so. He is using the teaching of the Pharisees, and their syncretism of Persian theology about hell against them. He didn’t address the Sadducees with these stories for they didn’t believe in an afterlife. So instead he turned the Pharisees’ violent beliefs against them. It was clear to them the rich ruler was them, and they didn’t merit the bosom of Abraham, the poor beggar did. Here’s the clincher, Lazarus is the Hellenized version of Ebenezer, the Gentile head of Abraham’s household in the OT story. Can you imagine how the Pharisees felt being told implicitly that the Gentiles were finding favor with God before them. It’s all about Jesus’ rejection of “religion as usual.”
    “Is there any evidence that can be presented to prove a deity of any kind exists?
    If the answer is yes, present the evidence.”
    That’s not the point of the Bible, Jesus is. He is the “evidence.” You’ve seen that evidence and chosen not to believe it. That is your choice and I respect it. That is why he said, “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” I have chosen differently.
    Peace.

  • D.M.S.

    Chapter and verse please.

  • Ron McPherson

    Oh goodness. DMS is back? He loves to talk about gay people.

  • Ken Allen

    The list of sources is not mine, the list belongs to Brian Neil
    Peterson and the paper appears in JETS, as I cited. So, your disagreement in
    interpretation is with Peterson and not me. My source was Peterson’s article
    and that is what I read and cited. However, I also read Peterson’s citations
    and they are accurately represented by Peterson. Remember, my argument is that fundamentalists
    are not the only group to attribute homosexuality as one of the sins committed by
    the men in Sodom and Gomorrah. There is evidence (which I have provided) that
    ancient scholars and sources agree with the fundamentalists. May you find God’s
    peace.

  • After reading this I am still not i the slightest agreement with you.
    “Democracy is supposed to benefit all the people” – No that’s socialism. And socialism has never worked anywhere it has been tried. Why do you talk about the ideals of the Kingdom in relation to earthly governments? Do you not know the end of all of this? Total destruction with only a remnant saved to usher in the next age. And you dare call abortion a diversionary tactic?

  • Questioning

    “No. I did not say Herm was wrong; I said he not quite right.”

    I say ” hmmmph…. white man speak with forked tongue.” Are you back pedaling now Bob? You have argued with Herm, sometimes with me, and others all across this blog for months, but I think you may be onto something. We are not wrong and you are definitely not quite right.

    ps…. with respect to your “biggest political scandal in US history”, it’s the end of the day and I have still not seen anything. Frankly, I would rather watch the grass grow than get my information from those “other sources” you mention. In any case, unless it involves impeachment or resignation of the POTUS , it would NOT be the biggest political scandal in US history anyway. Have a beer or a sasparillo Bob and relax…. its not all that gloomly and dire, besides if this world can hang together a few more years it will not matter, because we will not be in it.

  • Bones

    Thats a good strategy.

    The troll doesnt deserve attention which is what he craves.

    Every now and then the troll has to be put in his place. Especially when it harasses new posters.

  • Bones

    So god caused homosexuality.

    Cool!

  • Bones

    Billy Graham was a liar and an antisemite.

    No wonder you love him.

  • Bones

    In the same way that children believe in Santa and the easter bunny.

    That sort of Truth.

  • D.M.S.

    The Lord God will forgive you of your sins if you ask and are sincere when you ask for His forgiveness.

  • Bones

    So in other words you didn’t read the sources.

    You just found a list of sources which someone dishonestly made claims about.

    And once again you dont understand that homosexuals aren’t attracted to the opposite sex. Hence the prefix homo = same.

    Of course christians hated gay people thats why they passed laws to burn them alive.

    That you or any other nutter tries to equate the behaviour of sodom and gomorrah with homosexuality says more about your own ignorance.

  • Bones

    Lucky for her she hasnt seen what you’ve become.

  • D.M.S.

    What?
    That Christ Jesus has become my Lord, Savior and Master.
    I’m looking forward to reuniting with her when I pass from this earth.

  • Bones

    Nah, you’re a pathetic, hate filled merkin.

  • Bones

    Actually I forgive people who don’t even ask for it.

    That makes me better than your god.

  • Bones

    Fun fact: Jesus was a progressive.

    Do you want a medal because you prefer the den of the pharisees?

    We all know the divisive exclusive religion that people like you promote.

  • Bones
  • sandidad

    No, you are the liar and Billy Graham wasn’t an anti semite. The truth isn’t in you!!!!

  • Bones

    Lol it’s on public record, moron…..

    Billy Graham, Nixon and anti-Semitism: The Bombshell Tapes That Tarnished the Faith Leader’s Reputation
    Graham’s closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted – including ambassador to Israel

    ”They’re the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,” Graham said to Nixon – “the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country’s going down the drain,” he continued.

    Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ”I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all — I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I’m friendly with Israel. But they don’t know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country. And I have no power, no way to handle them, but I would stand up if under proper circumstances.”

    https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/billy-graham-nixon-and-anti-semitism-the-bombshell-tapes-1.5844419

    And Graham tried to lie himself out of it by claiming he never said it until…….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-wVFkzyLb0

    Oh and asked Nixon to commit war crimes…..

    No wonder you love him.

    But lies are what you feed on.

    Gee it’s fun taking you lying bastards down.

  • Bones

    Fun fact: The Gospel of John is not a historical account of the life of Jesus.

    He never said anything in it.

  • Bones

    lolololololololol

  • Bones

    Lol..it’s only Widuran who’s allowed to call people names.

    At least infants have an excuse for being ignorant.

  • Bones

    I like that verse from John where Jesus says “”If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.”. (9:41)

    That’s you derpy.

  • Bones

    Lol you speaking about Truth is a real hoot.

  • Bones

    According to the Twelve, your doctrine is false and you are a fake Christian.

    Not only do you know nothing about Judaism, but you know nothing about first century Christianity.

  • Bones

    That’s why there are 3456834578930 denominations one of which is yours derpy.

  • Bones

    Glad you agree.

  • Bones

    No, you worship your ideology.

    And hate anyone who opposes it.

  • Bones

    So you don’t believe in hell then?

    That’s mighty progressive of you.

  • Bones

    I bet you don’t do this…..

    12 And He also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, “When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and that will be your repayment. 13 But when you give a [h]reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, since they [i]do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

    Mind you I wouldn’t want to be at a party with you either.

  • Bones

    Somehow I doubt he would invite the poor to a party ala Luke 14:12.

    But they’re probably lucky.

    His party would be something like the puritanical aunt in blackadder.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krgUVduKFL4

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s funny how the fundamentalists take literal and without context all the gay clobber passages from Moses and Paul, but soften, spiritualize and contextualize away the things Jesus said about giving up possessions, loving enemies, and showing mercy. And they condemn others in the name of Jesus while doing it LOL! It’s one of the craziest things I’ve ever seen.

  • Bones

    Lol.you’ve shown with your arrogance, stupidity and ignorance that you’re not worth having a conversation with.

    Lol, Jesus wasn’t talking about soup kitchens derpy….and you’re the one claiming to be super Christian on here.

    But good to see you don’t think Jesus knew what he was talking about.

    And you’re just another hypocritical moron, cherry picking verses to suit their own ideology.

  • Bones

    Lol he just said he wouldn’t want those people in his house.

    Obviously disagrees with Jesus then.

  • Bones

    Derpy, the Twelve didn’t even like Paul….

    And now you show you know nothing of the Bible.

  • Bones

    Lol…keep sipping that Kool Aid….

  • Bones

    Nah you don’t.

    You worship a caricature you’ve made.

    You really are a sad pathetic creature.

  • Bones

    Lol….the joke here is you moron.

    You know nothing of the first century and are just your typical arrogant, stupid, ignorant Evangelical who thinks he knows everything.

    What you preach is hatred and division and as we’ve just witnessed, you don’t give a flying f*** about the words of Jesus unless it feeds your ideology.

    Thankfully many of us see you for what you are.

    And what a great witness you are.

    Thank you for reminding us YET AGAIN, why we would have nothing to do with such a despicable brand of religion.

  • Bones

    Yeah. I could think of some better ones.

  • Bones

    To you Truth is a Lie.

    And only exists to support whatever ideology you’ve made up in your head.

  • Bones

    You’re clearly f***ed in the head.

    Did you ever find Obama’s birth certificate, Bob?

  • Bones

    Yep. I like putting arrogant arseholes like yourself in their place.

    A bit like Jesus did.

  • Bones

    Lol – the liar and slanderer here is you fool. The ignorant arrogant clown coming on here condemning anyone who disagreed with him.

    But then you don’t have anything else.

    I mean you could study pharisaism in the first century but that would be too enlightening for you.

    If you are a christian – then I do not want to be one.

    Because that god is not worth following.

  • Bones

    Lol…..are you thinking of bum sex now?

  • Ron McPherson

    IMO, the biggest threat to authentic Christianity are professing Christians like him. A friend of my son is now atheist because hypocritical condemnation against others was shoved down their throat throughout their formative years.

    Teens and young adults today are savvy enough to know that the Jesus of the gospels often doesn’t line up with the Jesus they were fed. The tactic often used in conservative settings is to essentially scare people into a profession of faith, a tactic Jesus did not use to attract genuine followers.

  • Bones

    Lol….that describes arseholes like you to a tee.

    Hypocrites who use religion to condemn others. When it’;s yourself who is condemned.

    No wonder you killed Jesus.

  • Bones

    Lol….there seems to be some confusion among christians about what is Truth.

    Which defeats your addled interpretation.

  • Bones

    Well you are posting shit.

    So it is relevant.

  • Bones

    It seems you’re more interested in sin than Jesus is.

    In fact you seem more like…..the Pharisees.

    They were the ones obsessed with sin.

    And now you’re obsessed by penises. Now there’s a surprise.

    Sincerely held beliefs have caused genocide, idiot.

    And that’s my sincerely held belief.

  • Bones

    Gee like I should give a rats what a liar posts……..

  • Bones

    No its not. Saying it is doesn’t make it truth.

    Fun fact: being born again is a Jewish belief. Nicodemus would know what it meant.

    But hey if you really cared about truth you’d know that.

  • Bones

    And you’re an arsehole….

  • Bones

    Lol, I’m no moron wanker.But I love taking you arrogant fakes on.

    I mean your’re so stupid you can’t even see how I’ve managed to show to all the posters on here what an arrogant, self-righteous twat you are.

    MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

    Thanks for that!

  • Susan M.

    They were what drove me away from the Christian religion.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve heard that from others as well. It never surprises me when I hear that. No telling how much damage it’s done to folks

  • Susan M.

    And Jesus himself said not to repeat the same prayer over and over again, like the heathens did. He went on to say that one should pray like this… and he gave an example. Which is now The Lord’s Prayer, and we are taught to say it over and over again, like heathens.

  • Susan M.

    Jesus is “my team”; therefore he was a fundamentalist.

  • Susan M.

    Well, you know, Ron – women don’t count. They didn’t count in the days of Lot, and it’s clear from the fact that most people don’t even register that Lot threw his daughter out to be raped to death that women still don’t count.

  • Herm

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31

    Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

    Mark 13:11

  • Ron McPherson

    Yeah, it’s like forcible gang rape isn’t on the radar, nor is the horrifying actions of Lot against his own daughters. Like how on earth does somebody read that story and come away thinking it’s all about the evil gays lol?

  • “We are better.” I say you are bitter. Bitter because you are in the vast minority. You have mentioned this several times. You have no higher moral standards because morality comes only from God not man. It is you who might consider why do you exist? Well why do You?

  • D.M.S.

    God and I forgive you for your hatred.
    Christ Jesus is my God.

  • Susan M.

    It’s probably incalculable.

  • rationalobservations?

    In my country fewer than 2% of the population are active religionists and most folk tick the no religion/not religious box in polls, surveys and census forms.
    Over all the third largest and fastest growing human cohort are non religious and globally we outnumber members of any individual cult, sect and business of religion.
    In spite of the aggressive religionists of America’s bible belt and the lies Americans tell in polls and surveys, fewer than 18% of US citizens can be found in a place of religious indoctrination onany given Sunday and that number continues to decline.
    I am very happy and offer deep sympathy to bitter remnants of and throwbacks to less enlightened and more superstitions times.
    You are obviously indoctrinated with the garbage and lies you recycle, but your bunkum still remains debunked.

  • apoxbeonyou

    Franklin Graham is tearing down more walls than Trump. Well, maybe not.

    I have been reading your comments and I would say you have, too. Have a nice life!

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s now 3456834578935

  • Ron McPherson

    Since Widuran didn’t get very far with the orthodoxy yes/no quizzes, now they’re going to start administering sexual orientation yes/no quizzes.

  • Ron McPherson

    Hey Bones,
    Answer yes or no. I need to know if there is any value in me continuing to converse with you from here on out. Are you an apostate, immigrant, democrat, liberal, socialist, minority, atheist, poor, Muslim, transgender, progressive, heretical, gay, abortionist? Asking for a friend.

  • D.M.S.

    Satan and his many followers, including ( FF ) is doing their job to confuse the masses as much as possible away from Christ Jesus and His salvation. Mathew 10:22.

  • Herm

    Widuran, don’t you read, to comprehend, what you write to others?

    Do you believe the Bible? If so, in the last 1,900 years wouldn’t you then believe there was more truth, that students of the Teacher (the Spirit of truth) would be ready to bear more than Peter, Paul, James and John? After all, don’t you now know that the heavens don’t all rotate around a flat earth, just as one example? Don’t you believe, directly out of the mouth of the Messiah:

    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

    John 16:13 (NIV2011)

    … you know the Holy Spirit who definitively came, according to this quote from your beloved Bible relating to a relationship of Man to God directly before your Bible was written?

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    If you actually believed your Bible as far as it goes and this were true for you …

    the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:17-21 (NIV2011)

    … why would you need your Bible to justify your relationship living with and in God?

    Do you believe the entire truth of God is contained within your Bible? Do you believe, when living for eternity, still having the Spirit of truth guiding you into all truth forever, that you will still depend, as you do today, on your Bible?

    I quote the Bible to you because you depend on it to believe in God. I live with and in God with complete dependence on my eternal relationship with and in God and totally independent from the Bible.

    Use your logic, if you will, while remembering that it was the most studied believers of scripture, who did not recognize the Holy Spirit with and in Christ, who justified the murder of the Son of God, the Messiah, in God’s name.

    If you trust your Bible to have all the answers, with and/or without the Holy Spirit, why is it that you are unable to logically explain the verses I share with you, refuting my Teacher’s explanations with other quotes from Jesus, using Bible quotes?

    Your short little unsubstantiated snippets, that only serve to highlight your refusal to go to the Advocate (offered all of Man, regardless of race, creed or religion, by the Father), give us all the impression that you are trying to exalt yourself above God and Man. Widuran, in all honesty it is not working.

  • Ron McPherson

    By accident, today I stumbled upon a quote below that seems particularly relevant in light of Widuran’s insistence that a man-made creed must be used to rightly gauge one’s relationship with God.

    “One of the most persistent stumbling blocks to dynamic faith is the continuing attempts of religious folks from all sides of the spectrum to codify, systematize, and clarify that, which by nature, is resistant to all of the above.” – Vance Morgan

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Sin is defined as a transgression of a divine law.

    Until someone can prove a god ( or goddess) exists & can prove what that god ( or goddess’) laws are, the word sin has no meaning.

  • Herm

    I don’t abuse this, so, please, take it most seriously … amen

  • gimpi1

    What? Where did Dr. Corey lie? What ‘war on whites’ are you blathering about?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Jesus and parables that seem violent: it’s a parable not to be read literally.”

    Jesus says he speaks in parables so so that no one will understand him, lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:10-15)

    Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. (Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
    12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.)

    ““Is there any evidence that can be presented to prove a deity of any kind exists?
    If the answer is yes, present the evidence.”
    That’s not the point of the Bible”

    If there is no evidence that can be presented to show that a god exists, there is no reason to believe a god exists.

    “Jesus is. He is the “evidence.”

    By that you must mean that the stories that have been written for the Bible are the evidence?

    That puts them on par with the stories written in the Hindu Vedas as evidence for the Hindu deities.

    “You’ve seen that evidence and chosen not to believe it. ”

    You just said Jesus is the evidence. I have not seen Jesus. Not having seen what you call evidence of course I won’t believe it.

  • gimpi1

    I’m pretty sure both Augustine and Chrysotom would support slavery as the Bible represents it. That would also be in line with 1850 years of Christian tradition. Tradition can be profoundly wrong.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    If that is the case, give the chapter & verse and point out the part that says “”the bible condemns slavery in a transitional period where slavery was the norm”

    In the meantime, I will post these new testament passages that condone slavery:

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 )

    Jesus says beating slaves is OK:

    Luke 12:47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and didn’t prepare himself or do it will be severely beaten. 48 But the one who did not know and did things deserving of blows will be beaten lightly.

  • The majority of the frequent responders on this blog have issues with the bible from its validity to who wrote it to what it says.The common thread that unites them are hatred of the President and lawlessness. But there are a few of us who point out the hypocrisy.

  • Herm

    The Holy Spirit and Bible with good teaching and fellowship is all we need. New prophets do not add new revelations as you claim

    Your carnal church fellowship tells you that all you need is their holy spirit, their bible (interpretation, doctrine, theology), and their fellowship. They are wrong and worship of Jesus’, the Christ’s, God is only in the Spirit for the last 1,985 years: John 4:23 and 24.

    The Messiah said this to Peter, James, and John (his students at that time, just over 1,950 years ago) …

    I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

    John 16:12-13 (NIV2011)

    along with just prior to that…

    I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

    John 14:18 (NIV2011)

    … when the earth was flat and all the heavens rotated around it.

    And you say there are no new revelations? Don’t you understand that the spirit entity we know as God, with no beginning and no end, whether theoretically in study of the Bible, Torah, Quran, Vedas, Tripitaka (Pali Canon), Mahayana Sutras, Tibetan Book of the Dead, and/or in study of any other book of spiritual experience/analysis, will minimally live forever together, sharing “new revelations” with and in the Father, The Son and all the children of God (born of the Spirit of which all of God is spirit). Since eternal spirit entity God is alive, as temporal carnal Man is alive, it is important to declare the absolute reality that no life can be dormant and stagnant or it will atrophy to the death. God is the Supreme progressive moving ahead, growing and perfecting through adventure with shared savor as each can bear. God unifies, by in everything doing to all others as they would have all others do to them. God in grace unifies by loving (by empathizing, by being compassionate, by being forgiving, by being tolerant of all in their image) all their neighbors as they love themselves, with all their heart, with all their soul, with all their strength, with all their mind. God will live.

    Man is narcissistically divisive by authoritatively portraying each their tribal (particularly those tribes claiming descendancy from Abraham) god, who is simplistically and conveniently fully contained within only their tribal book and only their interpretation, all too often as a wrathful and vindictive god who punishes immature, ignorant, and rebellious human beings with eternal torture. Man will die and know nothing.

    2 Timothy 3:16–17: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    What didn’t you get about my alluding to the Pharisees, the teachers of the law (scribes) and the high priest Caiaphas when I asked you to, “Use your logic, if you will, while remembering that it was the most studied believers of scripture, who did not recognize the Holy Spirit with and in Christ, who justified the murder of the Son of God, the Messiah, in God’s name“?

    Jesus is quoted to have rebuked, graciously, scripture that had been said to have been in the name of the “LORD”.

    We need to be like these guys

    Acts 17:11 New International Version (NIV)

    11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    The only scriptures they, the Berean Jews, had to examine were from the Torah, of which Paul was Pharisee trained, and from which the Pharisees (who had previously “examined the Scriptures every day”) justified and supported the crucifixion of the Son of God, in God’s name, based on the blasphemous acceptance of the Christ to Caiaphas’ order, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    I don’t want to be like those guys.

    It seems you follow false teachers and want to add to the scriptures and ignore scriptures

    What scriptures am I adding to, except those that the Spirit of truth, instructed by the living Christ (who did not leave me orphaned) now with all authority on earth and in heaven, has convinced me to share with you, substantiated by scripture that you refuse to acknowledge? Don’t skim through this to only support your preconceptions. This is real, God is real, the Spirit of truth is real, and you are making no better judgments right now than did Caiaphas with his self-righteous interpretation of scripture. From what you have read in the Bible do you want to make the same error?

    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:20 (NIV2011)

    Do you support gay marriage? Yes or no

    I support all relationships that in everything another does to another as they would have the other do to them. I don’t support relationships that another intimidates, manipulates, coerces and/or subjugates another as they would not have the other do to them.

    Marriage is not, never has been, a sacred word copywritten by God . Marriage is a descriptive word of contractually joining, under the civil law, two entities (persons, people, companies or corporations) or mating two separate objects with clue, welding, soldering, or bolting into one synchronized and coordinated object. There is no marriage in heaven because all living entities are spirit, not carnal, of which already all of God is married together as one living with and in the Holy Spirit bound in all heart, all soul, all strength, all mind love (empathy, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness, …).

    Do you support abortion? Yes or no

    As said before, I do not support any subjugation of any person having the image of God, male or female, by another person having the image of God. I would bet, really, that you support sending our newly minted adults into battle, prematurely aborting their lives by just such a decision, to save your nation and your religion. I do not, because it clearly conflicts with my carrying my cross, for my enemy, and not a sword, against my enemy.

    And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:27 (NIV2011)

    Why could you not answer the basics of faith?

    It is you who sees and have been taught by an example of pharisaical tradition self-interpreting scripture with self-ordained authority, the basic of “faith” that you subscribe to. My faith is the promise that I will live eternally since today I know am living with and in God, comparatively new born of the Spirit. The truth to me, far exceeding faith, is that I have surpassed the prerequisites to be guided into all truth, that are written in your Bible:

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:26-27 (NIV2011)

    and

    He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

    “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    Luke 10:27-28 (NIV2011)

    Also where do you copy and paste your information from?

    I have, on my computers, most all books of religion, and versions, that are available digitally. I am a seminarian, and past ordained church administrator with over 50 years of intellectually walking with the LORD.

    I have 24 years’ experience as an infant child of God, born to live with and in the Spirit of God forever. Just as my brother, the Messiah, before me, who claimed to be the Son of Man 80 times in three years, so I continue to claim to be a son of Man baptized (whelmed, filled with) to now be living with and in the Holy Spirit (who was seen appearing as a dove to remain and live with and in Jesus).

    I do utilize the Internet if pertinent to illustrate what is happening today and will make very clear where I got that information, usually directing to the source to read in context.

    All other, non-referenced, commentary comes directly from my heart and mind living with and in the Spirit of truth as I can bear. In 24 years, I have learned to bear a lot more than I could have at age 50, just think what I might be able to bear by the end of eternity, at this rate.

    Just in case you missed the following, I think it might help you to go to and read the following quote, submitted to me by another child living with and in the Spirit of truth.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/no-franklin-graham-god-didnt-destroy-sodom-gomorrah-because-of-homosexuality/#comment-4031493251

    No child of God, living with and in the Holy Spirit, is left alone and/or orphaned, ever.

    Speaking of faith, I have an infinite faith that, by living with and in the only eternal living God, the revelations will never end!

  • Come, come now, Don’t be so obtuse.
    Our world today is full of wickedness and it was prophesied long ago to be that way. If we list the wickedness around us it will be illustrative:
    1. Killing babies and calling it a woman’s choice.
    2. Deviant sex of every sort and description called normal.
    3. Lawlessness covered by the love of Jesus.
    4. Drugs destroying people not defended but overlooked.
    Doubtless this behavior was extant in Sodom. God apparently didn’t agree that it was just peachy keen. He destroyed them as an example for us. But today many people on this site say everything was fine – no need to worry. But secretly they do worry.

  • gimpi1

    Learn to punctuate.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    your rationalism is insufficient to carry on the conversation. You demand “proof” that can’t be given by either side since you, nor any of us can produce the kind of “evidence” your hubris demands. What can be done is recognize there are varying presuppositions on which we build our “truth” and then test the truth claims against life as we know it–do the claims match life as I experience it and is there internal consistency to the claims. You say prove God and in so doing you posit a truth to be “disproved”–How does one to do that? With all your supposed rational skills you have to assume there is no god to make your truth system work in a similar way I will assume not only a god but God and the system holds together. You are welcome to assume there is nothing that makes something….so where did the something begin with…it just happened? Watch out for that assumption, it could kill you if there is a god! and there is plenty of proof for things in our world that cannot be explained by simple rationalism, where wise and learned individuals get to the point they are forced to admit–“I don’t know”. In some sense it is the most rational of individuals who can live with the answer.

  • There are many reasons Jesus spoke in parables, but like the Pharisees and Sadducees of his time, if you already know all the answers, or think you do, they will go over your head. Jesus spoke in parables, because it was safer. He could indirectly criticize Jewish leadership, even anger them, but not be charged with any crime. It is why they were constantly trying to get him to say something either blasphemous or incendiary against Rome. In fact, I would say they work the same way today as they did a couple millennia ago. Your response to them bears this out. So let’s set your fundamentalist atheism aside for a minute and tally a broader list of reasons:

    It was safer to use parables.
    Parables were popular in the first century. It was the style of teaching preferred.
    Contrary to what you are thinking, a cleverly worded parable was memorable.
    Parables have universal appeal.
    Parables force the listener to think and discuss.
    Jesus was tying the obstinacy and hard-heartedness of the Jewish leadership to the wording of Isaiah in the OT, a sign of his authority.
    Contrary to your understanding of this, the Jewish authorities DID understand he was critical of them, but confirmation bias prevented them from realizing the truth of the parables.
    The goal of parables is not easy answers. It is to provoke deeper thought of the spiritual, to stretch one’s thinking, even bother one until it is figured out: like a word puzzle.

    So once again, you fail to understand Jesus, as your literalist, fundamentalist imagination cannot except anything other than a blunt unimaginative reading of the text. Atheists tend to be just as narrow minded as the fundamentalist, and just as likely to misinterpret scripture.

    Hell, by the way, is not found in the Bible. Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, yes, but not “hell.” Most modern English translations remain true to the original Greek and Hebrew and do not include the word. Being a fundamentalist atheist, you may not know this.

    Hindu deities? Really? Now this is a typical atheist straw man. The vast majority of critical scholarship does not deny the historicity of a man called Jesus of Nazareth. We have as much evidence for his historicity as most other ancient leaders and teachers. What you make of that is entirely up to you. Is the Bible unbiased history? No, it is interpretive, theological and selective. Did God write it. No, religious people did. Did the writers have agendas? Yes.

    We are presented, in the Bible, enough information about the man Jesus, to form some opinions. There is also enough agreement among the writers to have a clear picture of Christ’s teaching. One can accept it, internalize it, put it into action…or simply ignore it. Does the Bible prove God exists? As I have pointed out before, that is not the Bible’s purpose. Jesus is the “proof.” Nothing has changed in 2000 years. Scientific discoveries do not exempt one from honest soul-searching. But, I am beginning to tire of the unrelenting, broken record you have presented. You have a shtick that is well rehearsed, but unimaginative and very repetitive. I find fundamentalism in any form unappealing.

  • Bones

    That’s why Billy graham had to apologise.

    As usual your lies find you out.

  • Bones

    Yep…..all those….like Jesus….

  • Bones

    He can be gay if he wants. Whatever floats his boat.

  • Bones

    Lol…..the liar whose been exposed as an utter hypocrite.

    Good work merkin.

  • Bones

    Why are you thinking about bum sex?

    Here’s a thought.

    Go mind your own f***ing business.

    Lying’s an abomination too.

    But you take to it like a pig in shit.

  • Bones

    Lol…..the only one allowed to call names is Willy the Wanker.

    Go f*** off hypocrite and take your poisonous brand of religion with you.

  • Bones

    Much more than you apparently.

  • Bones

    Still posting shit I see.

  • Bones

    Lol….you are truly f***ed in the head. The Shammaite school which controlled the sanhedrin was a lot like you.

    A bunch of exclusivist pricks who used their religion to divide.

    That you don’t get that shows how blind you are moron.

  • Bones

    Still lying I see.

    That’s all you do….

    Lie..

    And you love it so much.

    That’s what your religion has turned you into.

    Why would anyone here worship your god of lies who spreads hates and poison?

  • Bones

    Lol….and now you go down the cultic mindset that anything that disagrees with your cultic thought isn’t real.

    Well done Jim Jones.

    Fact: Being born again was a Jewish teaching.

    “According to the Talmud, when a non-Jew converts to Judaism, from the moment he or she emerges from the mikveh, he or she is considered to be born again. “Ger she-nit’gayer k’katan sh’nolad damei / A non-Jew who converts is like a newborn baby.” In other words, a person who is not biologically Jewish is, by virtue of the conversion, adopted into the family of the Jewish people, and is considered one of our children. That is why, for example, a convert is called up to the Torah as Ploni ben Avraham Avinu V’Sarah Imeinu, So-and-So, the son of Abraham our Father and Sarah our Mother. The conversion has made him or her, at least from a legal point of view, a new person, with a new set of parents, and a new family.”

    Aaannnnndddd

    BIRTH, NEW:

    A Rabbinical Nation
    Renewal of a man’s nature by casting aside the impurity of sin which cleaves to him from his former life, thus turning him into a pious and righteous child of God. The idea of man’s regeneration was first expressed by the prophet Ezekiel (xxxvi. 25 et seq.; compare xi. 19, xviii. 31; Ps. li. 12): “I will sprinkle clean water upon you; from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you, and I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you.” It was probably suggested by the rite of ablution, which was connected with every conversion (see Zech. xiii. 1 et seq. and Isa. iv. 4; compare “Shibbole ha-Leḳeṭ,” p. 145a, quoted by Schechter, in “Jew. Quart. Rev.” xii. 421) and signified a change of the whole man; exactly as Naaman the proselyte, after bathing in the Jordan seven times, became clean “and his flesh like that of a little child” (II Kings v. 14). The expression used by the Rabbis for the person who underwent a change of heart through repentance and conversion is, therefore, “beriah ḥadashah” (a new creature). The verse, “The people which shall be created shall praise the Lord” (Ps. cii. 19 [18]), is explained in Midr. Teh. on the passage (compare Pesiḳ. d. R.K. xxviii. 181) thus: “The people who shall be reborn through repentance of their sins shall praise the Lord”; and it is either referred to the Messianic future, “the generation to come,” or to the annual regeneration on the Day of Atonement, which, by blotting out the old year’s sins, renders Sukkot “the first day” “of the reckoning of sins” (Tan. and Lev. R. to Lev. xxiii. 40).

    The Proselyte.
    The proselyte who casts off the impurity of idolatry and turns to the God of life becomes a “new creature” (Gen. R. xxxix.; Soṭah 12b; compare Asenath, Prayer of). “He who turns away from uncircumcision and becomes a Jew is like one who turns away from the grave and requires cleansing,” was the maxim of the Hillelites (Pes. viii. 8). Hence arose the halakic rule that “a proselyte is like a new-born child whose family relations are no longer the same as before his conversion” (Yeb. 22a, 48b, 97b; Maimonides, “Yad,” Issure Biah, xiv. 11). It is therefore more than improbable that Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin (John vii. 50) and a leader in the synagogue (iii. 10), should not have understood the words of Jesus: “Except a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of God” (John iii. 3-10). On the contrary, this idea of a new birth and the term, “a new creature,” used by Paul (Gal. vi. 15; II Cor. v. 17; I Peter i. 3, 23; ii. 2; Clementine “Homilies,” xi. 26; “Recognitiones,” vi. 9; Barnabas xv. 7) with reference to Christian baptism, are directly borrowed from the rabbinical schools, as is also the expression, “Except ye be converted and become as little children ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. xviii. 3), which has the same meaning as the saying in John iii. 3 (compare Yer. Bik. iii. 65d; Midr. Sam. xvii. 1).

    A Rabbinical Nation
    Accordingly the fundamental doctrine of Paul’s preaching, thatin baptizing in the name of Jesus, the sinful man should die through the death of Jesus and rise again to a new life through the resurrection of Jesus (Rom. vi. 3-10, vii. 6, xii. 3; Titus iii. 5; and elsewhere), is not original with him. Paul merely gave to the Jewish idea of the new birth an antinomian character. The original story in the New Testament of Jesus’ baptism was regarded as signifying his rebirth as the Son of God; the heavenly voice is said to have cried in the words of Ps. ii. 7: “Thou art my son; to-day have I begotten thee” (compare Heb. i. 5, v. 5; Acts xiii. 33, with Matt. iii. 17; Mark i. 11; Usener, “Religionsge-schichtliche Untersuchungen,” 1889, i. 47 et seq.).

    The new birth through the water and the spirit, of which Jesus speaks (John iii. 5), has its parallel in the passage Mek., Yitro 5: “Israel received the law in the desert amid fire and water” (compare Sanh. 39a: “True baptism is by fire”). James i. 18 speaks of rebirth through the word of truth: “Of his own will begat he us by his word of truth that we should be the firstlings of his creatures.”

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3321-birth-new

    I understand that presenting you with facts is as Jesus said ‘casting pearls before swine’.

  • Bones

    Jesus called.

    He thinks you’re an arsehole too.

  • Bones

    No that’s you dickhead.

    The pompous self righteous arrogant prick who came on here condemning others.

    Haven’t you been brought down a few levels.

    Btw you might want to read what the Bible says about pride.

    Oh no you don’t give a f*** about that. Unlike bum sex.

  • otrotierra

    Bones, just a heads-up that yet another Evangelical Troll account was created to cyberstalk and harrass me over at Sojourners.

  • sandidad

    I partially agree, Bob, it’s their hatred for President Trump. If you are accusing President Trump as being lawless it’s obvious you are also bias. The most lawless president was Muslim Obama who should be behind bars for treason. Name one thing Obama did to benefit America and Americans? 1) Obama spent his entire 8 years dividing our nation with his racist rhetoric of pitting blacks against whites and our police. 2) Obama traveled the world trashing America, Christianity and praising Islam. Anyone notice since Trump has been in office we don’t hear much from BLM, their rioting, looting, burning down stores and blocking highway has stopped? 3) Anyone notice ISIS’ terrorism has stopped? Obama was the “head” of the ISIS snake. It’s sad Democrats are so blind due to their hatred for President Trump they can’t see how Trump is making America great again. The lying, corrupt, baby killing, Godless, socialistic, communistic, Islamic Democrat Party is America’s no.1 enemy. The liberals loons who vote Democrat are complicit in the Party’s crimes against America.

  • Herm

    bye!

  • Thanks. You are going to be as popular as I am on this site.
    While the Left holds up Obama as an idol (another sin) the Right extols what Trump is accomplishing not his personal life.
    The Left doesn’t understand that 63 million people voted for Trump and he achieved a Electoral Landslide.
    This prolonged effort to deny the Election is part of a broader strategy by the Left to stop elections in this country and allow the Left to be in power continually. Sound unbelievable but that’s what Rush believes and he is prescient.

  • D.M.S.

    Homosexuality is a mental disorder
    Everyone chooses to be homosexual.
    The Lord God created no one homosexual.

  • Herm

    That’s the difference between carrying a cross or carrying a sword. You don’t fight with anyone but yourself, and right now that is to the death!

  • D.M.S.

    Isn’t your love of the rights of women to abort their babies also a kind of genocide?

  • Ken Allen

    My source was the paper by Brian Neil Peterson that was peer
    reviewed and presented in JETS. I read Peterson’s paper and used his argument
    that was partially supported by the sources in his paper. I also read the list
    of sources that Peterson used. Now if you are of the opinion that Peterson is
    in error, you can take it up with him. To repeat myself, the culture of Sodom
    and Gomorrah was not monolithic “in any respect, and that includes areas of
    immorality along with righteousness. The biblical description of Sodom and
    Gomorrah is that of a culture that has many facets of immoral behavior. In this
    discussion, the facets that I am referring to involve sexual deviance.” One of
    those sexual deviances was homosexual in nature and that position is not the
    opinion of any one religious group (the focus of my argument) but is indeed the
    opinion of ancient scholars and other ancient sources, which I have
    demonstrated. Be at peace with God and rest in His grace.

  • D.M.S.

    Scripture states that we Christians can walk away from those that will not listen to Christian scripture.
    The HolySpirit will send in others, to take our place.
    There’s no shame in walking away..,

  • D.M.S.

    2 billion? Lol.
    It’s probably a lot closer to 20 million. But I even doubt that it’s that high.

  • D.M.S.

    Who does Christians serve?
    Including slaves?
    Please enlighten us to the scripture that makes your statement true?
    I’ve been a Christian for many years and I’ve never read that slavery is okay.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “I have and you ignore it because you are deceitful”

    You posted 1 timothy 1 :10. Nowhere in there does it say what you claimed, that ” the bible condemns slavery in a transitional period where slavery was the norm”.

    “Slavery was normal in that society and Paul used these as analogies”

    It was normal in that society and according to the Bible god & Jesus both condone slavery.

    “Funny how it was Christians who first got rid of slavery by justifying freedom for all via the bible yet you ignore the truth”

    Just as many Christians supported slavery by using the Bible’s condoning of slavery as their justification. The ones supporting slavery had the Bible’s support yet you ignore the truth.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Even when provided with proof I am unsure if your pride will allow you to believe”

    Present what you are calling proof and we will see.

    If you won’t, I will assume the reason is you know you do not have any proof.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    ” You demand “proof” that can’t be given by either side”

    By either side? Atheists don’t have anything they need to prove. Atheism is a non-belief that a god exists, it is NOT a claim that there is no god. We are simply asking the believers for the proof of their claims.

    “since you, nor any of us can produce the kind of “evidence” your hubris demands.”

    My hubris demands? In fact, it is logic & rationality that demands proof for extraordinary claims IF the person making the claim expects to be believed.

    “You say prove God and in so doing you posit a truth to be “disproved””

    Nope. I say show me proof for a god if you expect me to believe your claim that a god exists.

    It is a claim I am asking you to prove, I am not asking you to disprove anything.

    “With all your supposed rational skills you have to assume there is no god ”

    No, with no believer able to present evidence that a god exists ( one problem they have is that they have not been able to define what the god is in any meaningful way) and because no such evidence is presented the claim is rejected until proven.

    It’s the same reason you ( I assume) don’t believe in leprechauns or pixies or bigfoot.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Please enlighten us to the scripture that makes your statement true?”

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5T)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

    Jesus says beating a slave is correct:

    Luke 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day which he does not expect, and at an hour which he does not know. And he will cut him in two, and assign him his part with the unbelievers.
    47 But that slave having known the will of his master, and not having prepared or acted in accordance with his will, will be beaten many blows.
    48 But the one not having known, and having done things worthy of blows, will be beaten a few blows.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “Look at the history of Jesus Christ.”

    Is there any historical evidence that Jesus was divine?

    Is there any evidence to prove that any of the miracles attributed to Jesus ( such as the resurrection) actually happened?

    In other words, can you present any evidence to prove any miracle from the Bible?

    It is the claims made in the Bible I am asking you to prove… the story from the Bible isn’t proof of the story from the Bible.

    “Look at the Bible and search if this God exists”

    So far I have seen no evidence for this or any other god.

    If you have evidence for a god, present it.

  • You do know that comment makes you look foolish?
    Belief in God isn’t limited to Christians either.
    2 billion is just the number of Catholics and Protestants et. al. Another 1.5 billion Muslims.
    As to atheists 500 million. Boy that’s small.

  • Bones

    Lol I don’t give a rats if some clown published it in some evangelical rag. Most don’t bother reading the source claims and just take it for granted as you have done. Especially when it is written for an audience which wouldn’t bother checking it. And these Christian ‘ancient scholars’ wanted gay people dead. And they hated Jews as well.

    If you read the list of sources then you are completely moronic because as I have actually posted them for ALL to read they do not support your argument at all.

    So you are either a liar or a complete idiot.

    Maybe you should check out what the Bible says about lying.

    And a thousand poxes on your house for your bigotry and posting it online. And Peterson’s.

  • Bones

    Lol….now the wanker tries to cover up the sin of his hero.

    He also advocated drowning millions of Vietnamese. A war crime for which Nazis were executed.

    When Billy Graham Urged Nixon to Kill a Million People

    “Back in April, 1989, a Graham memo to Nixon was made public. It took the form of a secret letter from Graham, dated April 15, 1969, drafted after Graham met in Bangkok with missionaries from Vietnam. These men of God said that if the peace talks in Paris were to fail, Nixon should step up the war and bomb the dikes. Such an act, Graham wrote excitedly, “could overnight destroy the economy of North Vietnam”.

    Graham lent his imprimatur to this recommendation. Thus the preacher was advocating a policy to the US Commander in Chief that on Nixon’s own estimate would have killed a million people. The German high commissioner in occupied Holland, Seyss-Inquart, was sentenced to death at Nuremberg for breaching dikes in Holland in World War Two. (His execution did not deter the USAF from destroying the Toksan dam in North Korea, in 1953, thus deliberately wrecking the system that irrigated 75 per cent of North Korea’s rice farms.)”

    Your Christ is a false hate filled one. Everyone hates it.

    Becauee it’s in your head.

  • Bones

    Lol…keep posting so we can see how rotten and poisonous your religion is wanker.

  • Bones

    The only abomination here are the likes of you.

    But you’re head’s so far up your own arse you can’t see that.

    You’re too busy looking around at others to see how much of an arsehole you are.

    We all hate your religion dude.

    It’s evil.

  • Bones

    And you show that you’ve got nothing Willy the Wanker.

    Thanks for proving why we hate and despise your religion.

  • Bones

    Lol….you didn’t even know about the Jewish roots of being born again.

    Some of us are biblical scholars here, douche bag.

    Not cultists like you.

  • Bones

    Still just shit I see.

  • Bones

    Lol an accurate summation of your character.

    But you’re too busy looking around for bum sex.

  • Bones

    You ain’t got nothing, wanker.

    You really are a sad pathetic case.

    See what toxic religion does to people.

    Make good people, bad.

  • Bones

    Try the online Jewish Encyclopedia.

    I included it.

    It’s called a link, dumbarse.

    I’m happy to educate you though.

  • Bones

    Says who?

    I just don’t accept your nonsense.

    More lies from Willy the wanker.

  • Bones

    The Bible says a lot more about pride and lying . But you’re just rolling in it,

    But what do you care?

    You don’t even think Jesus knew what he was talking about.

    Fun fact: God didn’t write the Bible – humans did.

    That’s why women were seen as unclean merkin.

    Or maybe your god thought that.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “So you admit Jesus Christ existed. This is a good start Fact 1”

    I accept that a person named Jesus probably existed at that time since it was not an uncommon name.

    Is there any evidence that can be presented to prove the Bible claims that:

    – his birth was heralded by a star?
    – he was born of a virgin?
    – he raised people from the dead?
    – he turned water into wine?
    – he walked on water?
    – he fed a multitude of people with a couple loaves & fish?
    – he was executed, was dead for a couple days and was resurrected?
    – he ascended into heaven?

    In other words, any evidence for any of the miraculous claims the Bible makes about Jesus?

    “Then when you look at the Bible and church history you will find many died for this faith.”

    That proves only that those people believed what they believed. All the Muslim suicide bombers died for their faith… does this make Islam true?

    “So the question is did they all die for a lie or fraud or truth?”

    And the way to determine the answer that question is to prove that a god exists & that the miracles claimed for Jesus actually happened. So far, no one has presented any evidence.

    They claim it must be taken on faith.

    Which make a belief in the Bible & Jesus as valid a belief as a belief in pixies or reincarnation, if a person has faith for those things.

    “Then Fact 3 is the Bible and the historical accuracy compared to other historical sources”

    Unless there is evidence that can be presented and examined for the miraculous claims the Bible makes, the Bible can be dismissed as historical fantasy… in other words a fantasy story with some historical facts & references in it.

    “Then Fact 4 is if you start to look into the faith God will move and you will have a choice to make..”

    This fact can be dismissed immediately because it is not a fact, it is a claim.

  • Herm

    Widuran, I don’t need to tell you that a bye is saying that I have no more to share with you based on your reply. How many times is God willing to forgive you, should you show even the smallest of interests?

    God is not fighting Satan. God is teaching to uncover the woe for those following the spirit of Satan, the one you show in following in exactly the same spirit of the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and Caiaphas … and the same spirit Saul, the Pharisee enforcer, once followed until he saw God was real, and available. God offers to accept any of mankind, graced the image of God, male and female, to teach them directly, with and in them, the truth as each can bear, with no other carnal church structure, or accouterments, necessary to support Christ’s church, which is purely spirit.

    All we can do, as chartered disciples of Christ, is point you to where your only salvation from the spirit of Satan is, in your midst, the Spirit of truth. You, to date, try to make your scripture history, over 1,900 years old, fight to make your salvation. Thousands of real Christians, died at the hands of those fighting to make their scripture their salvation, some at the hands of Saul, before becoming the apostle Paul, long before the New Testament of your Bible was written, collected, considered, compiled, and canonized. They carried their own crosses, each, because they then knew the Holy Spirit as real then, as the Spirit of truth guiding them into all truth forever. They didn’t carry swords as Paul no longer carried a sword. They didn’t fight the spirit of Satan to the death. They taught and shared with their enemy, that their enemy might reconsider (repent), their intimidation, manipulation, coercion and their subjugation by the threat of silencing them with a sword, and live. They carried their cross in the exact same spirit of their Messiah, holding out love for their enemies as did their Christ, that they may live as does their brother Jesus, by the will of their Father.

    You know the verses, documenting the Spirit of truth in your Bible, and yet you do not let him fill you with the living truth, the most pertinent words of God as you can bear. Why don’t you trust God enough, as real and most loving, to throw your entire self, carnal and in the image of God, on God’s mercy to teach you the truth and protect you from all evil, including false teachers? Do you now believe they, God, cannot communicate with you directly infinitely more fully than your Bible? Do you fear relationship with and in God, the one Father, the one Instructor, the one Teacher, more than possibly being misled by any one of the hundreds of differing dogmas, creeds, theologies and church structures, of mankind, each touting that they have the true interpretation of “the word of God” which they insist is the Bible? Why would God be silent now when the Holy Spirit was not silent following Jesus’ ascension? I testify that God is not silent but that you are both deaf and blind to God exactly as Caiaphas was deaf and blind to God, also in his midst. I am not looking to add some notch to the handle of my six shooter by winning a shootout, or rumble, with you. I have no need, for I know my salvation who leads me into all truth. I began this conversation with you only to call out an untruth that you wielded authoritatively in the name of God, who you do not know, to harm others, who you did not, and still do not, know, but God does. Ask God all alone from carnal company. If you do so, in all humility and all trust that they can and will answer you (they meaning addressing your Father in heaven, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and/or God in heaven and on earth), and don’t get an answer then God is dead to you and not worth pursuing. I can only testify to you that God is very much alive with and in me right this moment. Jesus didn’t lie as quoted in the New Testament. That’s the Good News, the Gospel according to Christ.

    You tell me how you read the verses, in your Bible, relating to the Spirit of truth, please. I have repeatedly shared them with you, hoping you would actually see the light. I now encourage you to invite the Holy Spirit to help you understand as you read them fully in context, just as though Jesus was actually speaking the truth for you today as he was for those over 1,900 years ago. You don’t need me. You don’t need the Bible. You don’t need mankind’s study of God known as theology. You don’t need traditional mankind fellowship to judge whether you are on the right track with God. You need a relationship with a reliable teacher who knows your heart, soul, strength, mind and knows the real truth as you can bear to receive it.

  • D.M.S.

    I don care one bit how foolish I look.
    I’m trying to get rid of my pride.
    99+% of the catholic community isn’t Christian.
    They worship Mary and saints which is blasphemy.
    Belief in God/Jesus is limited to Christians only.

  • D.M.S.

    What you don’t understand in all of that equation is that we are serving our Lord God.
    When we are serving God/Jesus.

  • D.M.S.

    Have you forgiven me, also?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “What you don’t understand in all of that equation is that we are serving our Lord God.
    When we are serving God/Jesus.”

    What you don’t understand is that until someone can present evidence that a god exists, there is no reason to believe those claims.

  • The question was belief in God not the legitimacy of Catholicism or Protestantism.
    They say they believe in God. You may not agree with their religion neither do I.

  • D.M.S.

    I have yet to meet one biblical scholar at Formerly Fundie.
    You people are legends in your own minds.
    You’ve made up your own scripture that you believe in.
    It isn’t from any bible that I’ve read from.
    KJV, ESV, NASB, NKJV. These are the ones that I’ve read from.
    Yours is probably from the QJV at the Formerly Fundie Cult.

  • Ron McPherson

    When Widuran kept demanding an answer from me about Jesus, I quoted Peter’s description of him as the Son of God. Jesus blessed Peter for saying it and said he’d build his church on it. Widuran however called me a gnostic unbeliever. Good thing Wid wasn’t around when Peter said that. He would have had to correct Jesus about who he really was. People like Wid are so consumed with condemning others that they don’t even comprehend what they’re saying.

  • And you dare call abortion a diversionary tactic?

    In one breath, people like yourself argue that the local abortion clinic is actually a baby murder factory.

    But, for some reason, you don’t in the next breath round up a posse, pick up torches and pitchforks, and shut the baby murder factory down, as any reasonable human would if they just heard that down the street there is a local baby murder factory.

    So it ain’t a stretch to consider y’all pro-lifers the biggest, most transparent blowhards on the planet, desperate to distract with rhetoric that never matches action.

  • Bones

    Widuran didnt like Jesus much either.

    He said as much when Jesus said to invite the poor instead of your mates.

    Jedus dodn’t know what he was talking about

  • Bones

    No because you’re an arse.

  • Bones

    Lol…. comes on to tell every one on here how fake they are and is shown to be the biggest fake ever.

    I love it.

  • Bones

    Still got nothing but lies Willy Wanker.

    Did your religion make you an arsehole or were you always one?

    I’m going with the former.

  • Bones

    Well you clearly don’t , given you know nothing of the shammaite or hillel schools of pharisaism nor the Jewish origins of new birth.

    Another fun fact: Jesus quotes the Jewish rabbi Hillel.

    Heck I love showing how ignorant you clowns are.

  • Bones

    Still just shit…..

    And you reek of it.

  • Bones

    You’re the only one thinking about it wanker.

    Its no surprise that evangelicals fantasise about it.

  • Bones

    Bad luck fpr you dude but I aint.

    You better try grinder.

  • Bones

    Lol you cant just dismiss facts you dont like as rubbish.

  • Bones

    You get what you deserve moron.

  • Bones

    The pride that you are always right cretin.

    And that your vindictive way is the only way.

    And the pride and arrogance that you are better than everyone else.

  • Bones

    Given you dont even know where it says to kill gays in the Bible shows you cant even use google let alone study the bible.

  • D.M.S.

    None of your name calling is going to get you anywhere with anyone.
    Bones especially loves to push people’s buttons. So he can sit back and laugh at them.
    Christians are supposed to be respectful to everyone including those who hate us.
    Christ Jesus stated they hated me, if you love Me they will hate you.

  • Ron McPherson

    Wid contextualizes those parts of the Bible to avoid being condemned by its words, but apply as literal those passages that would seem to condemn others. When he kept demanding yes or no answers to his orthodoxy quizzes, I applied his own tactics against him to show his hypocrisy. He didn’t like it when the shoe was on the other foot, so he just kept claiming I was an unbeliever lol.

  • Ron McPherson

    Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

    He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

    He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

    Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.

  • It is. What would you call 50 million aborted babies since 1973 in this country?
    We live in a country with laws not mobs. Even fighting to defund the murder factory known as Planned Parenthood is resisted by confused Liberals. “Blowhards?” Try again y’all.

  • Ron McPherson

    Well in fairness, DMS’ Disqus profile DOES say he’s a “learning Christian for the rest of (his) life” lol. He forgot to add the rest that says provided the information he receives comes only from like minded fundamentalists. It’s like, oh that can’t be factual because it goes against what I’ve been told to believe.

  • We live in a country with laws not mobs.

    So, lemme get this straight. You know a murder is about to happen down the street. So you call the cops, and you tell them, and they believe you, but they decide to do nothing. “Eh. There’s an exception in the law. Our hands are tied,” they say. You’re telling me that you would do nothing, and your excuse for doing nothing in this most exigent of exigent circumstances is your unerring fidelity to the rule of law.

    I have two reactions.

    First, you are most probably a liar, either to yourself or more generally. You wouldn’t just sit there with your thumbs up your arse in that scenario, you would act. The reason you don’t in the case of abortion is because you know, deep down, that your rhetoric is bullshit and that you do not react to the situation it describes with the same moral gravity as preventable murder.

    But it is possible that you do know yourself and are honestly reporting that your fidelity to the law is so great you would not lift a finger to stop a preventable murder where police refuse to intercede. In which case, please conduct yourself to the nearest available exit of human civilization. You don’t belong in here.

  • Bones

    You follow the false god of extremists.

    A hateful merkin who hates its own creation.

    And you give it life.

  • Bones

    Lol thats funny from the bloke who hates gay people and everyone who isnt like him.

  • Bones

    Lol….you cant handle facts which go against your dogma.

    Thats because its a house of cards which will tumble down.

    Its the hallmarks of cults.

    If it goes against your beliefs it doesnt exist.

    Idiots like you are a dime a dozen in every religion.

  • “Over all the third largest and fastest growing human cohort are non religious and globally we outnumber members of any individual cult, sect and business of religion.” I challenge that analysis. You outnumber what?

    “The Pew Religious Landscape survey reported that as of 2014, 22.8% of the U.S. population is religiously unaffiliated, atheists made up 3.1% and agnostics made up 4% of the U.S. population. The 2014 General Social Survey reported that 21% of Americans had no religion with 3% being atheist and 5% being agnostic.”

    “In spite of the aggressive religionists of America’s bible belt and the lies Americans tell in polls and surveys, fewer than 18% of US citizens can be found in a place of religious indoctrination on any given Sunday and that number continues to decline.” And you observe this behavior by wandering around your country on Sunday’s? Please…

    Enlightened to you is Lawlessness to God. People in this country are allowed have their own opinions and indoctrination sounds more like what must have happened to you. I feel sorry for you as you are a lost soul looking for others of a like mind to commisserate with.

  • Bones

    Lol you’re the one interested in whose having bum sex, pervert.

    I told you its none of your business.

  • Bones

    Whats come out of dialogue with him is that the only interactions he has with people are online.

    Its tragic and pathetic really.

  • rationalobservations?

    The non religious third of the current human population outnumber any individual Christian cult or sect and outnumber the two main Muslim sects. We vastly outnumber Jews, Hindus, Pagans and Jedis.

    Pew fails to reflect the reports of the American Church Leaders association or the main European church data on shrinking congregations and redundant rotting churches. I don’t need to inspect the empty redundant churches myself. They are recorded by the businesses of religion that have them on the market for redevelopment into something of actual benefit to humanity.

    There are no gods or goddesses and the least religious nations are also the least lawless and most peaceful.

    Your delusions are dying out with your generation.

  • I would argue you have limited reasoning skills. Whether or not you are a liar in unknown.
    If by in here you mean on this site, by all means I belong here.

  • Ok. So you know where this is going, when your non religious numbers do become the majority it is another signpost on the way to the end of this age. “As it was in the days of Noah…

    Arguing with statistics means you are not correct. I don’t see your cite – just opinion.
    What nation do you hold up as the “least lawless and most peaceful.” Tell us please?
    If you are saying that you are young it does make sense; takes a while to grow up….

  • Herm

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Widuran, was Jesus a lying troll? If I’ve been here for over four years, in this cyber sanctuary, then, between the two of us who is the troll here?

    I’ve made over 6,000 comments that you could go back on and follow my growth, with and in my Teacher. You’ve made 641 comments, who is the troll in this house?

    You don’t have to believe me, just as Caiaphas did not have to believe the prophesied Christ before his judgment. Caiaphas was the high priest with full privileges, given personally by God, to go behind the curtain of the Holy of Holies to consult directly with the Holy Spirit. Caiaphas didn’t ask the Hole Spirit, the Spirit of truth, and judged Jesus, the Messiah, the accepting Son of God, a heretical, blasphemous liar worthy of death, in his, and his council’s, exalted judgment. You refuse to remove your blinders to face God directly heart to heart, mind to mind.

    Jesus did not lie. The Spirit of truth, the Advocate given to us by our Father, is right there in your midst, right here with and in me, right now, ready to accept you as a newborn child of God. Seek and ask for the only truth that you can truly trust your life on, as your eternal rock, directly from the I am, the true light who gives light to everyone who sincerely asks in all humility.

    In a way, you might be right, I am trolling for temporal children of Man, graced the image of God, to become eternal children of God. I have been commissioned a fisher of Man, as was Peter, as was Jesus by our Father. You are not being lied to by any of us. Ask God, ask the Spirit of God’s truth, the Good News, made available to you nearly two millenniums ago.

    I have been told to go and make students of all tribes of Man for our one Teacher, who is one with and in our one Instructor with all authority in heaven and on earth, according to the will of our one Father. The name of God, in your New Testament is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. To be baptized means no more than to become one fully filled, as in wholly whelmed (not over or under), with and in the Spirit of truth, the one who appeared as a dove to fill and whelm Jesus, the Christ.

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    My sure and personal faith is that Jesus will be with me always, even to the end of eternity, as he is with and in me right this moment.

    Is this more than you can bear? Is that why you perceive it a lie, for the same reason Caiaphas perceived Jesus lying? Who other than the authorities of mankind might you trust to tell you the truth of God? I am not an authority of God, anymore than any infant child of Man is an authority of hers or his carnal family. I am only seeking to share honestly with my peers, too many who do not know, the wonders of my most divinely loving and capable Father, Brother, and siblings with and in the Holy Spirit bound in all love forever more.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve seen him comment about his church but what sticks out to me was when he told about how his own neighbor invited him to his church but asked not to be outted by him to others, which DMS wouldn’t agree to. He thinks his cruelty is of God

  • rationalobservations?

    In many countries the non religious significantly outnumber the dwindling rump of eccentric religionists. Those countries are at the top of the annually published “Global Peace Index”. LOOK IT UP.!
    (Note that the gods and guns crazy USA is wallowing at 114 of 164 nations listed.)
    Your condition of blanket denial and unwillingness to research that which confused and confounds you – is your problem.

    I wish I was young but my long and very happy and fulfilled life has seen many more summer’s behind than ahead. I am of the generation that shrugged off the indoctrination that enslaves your mind. Most of the millennial generation have never been exposed to or have submitted to religious indoctrination and generation Z mostly appear not to understand all that superstition garbage and “voodoo stuff”.

    Even the younger folk in lands still brutally dominated by Islam (as the West once was by brutal christian regimes) are rebelling against religion and although the “Arab Spring” was crushed, those who did the crushing won’t live forever. None of us recently evolved “human” apes do…

  • D.M.S.

    I don’t use google for learning about scripture.
    Google is incessantly very, very, liberal. I don’t believe that they would direct me towards the right scripture.
    I have yet to read anywhere in the New Testament where it states to kill gays and or to kill anyone for that matter.
    Chapter and verse please.
    Let Mr. McPherson know that just because I was a certain way 6 months ago doesn’t mean that I’m still that way today. Learning Christian means just what it states I’m a learning Christian. It doesn’t happen overnight.
    Bones are you the same exact person you were 5 or even 10 years ago. I doubt that you are.
    I know that I’m not. I’m not the same person I was a year ago.
    Learning takes time, as a teacher you should know that.
    Peace.

  • I did. But I didn’t find what you said. One example is Canada:

    The GPI gauges global peace using three broad themes: the level of societal safety and security, the extent of ongoing domestic and international conflict and the degree of militarization. Canada is number 6 for 2018. “Christianity is the largest religion in Canada, with Roman Catholics having the most adherents. Christians, representing 67.3% of the population, are followed by people having no religion with 23.9% of the total population. Islam is the second largest religion in Canada, practised by 3.2% of the population.”

    Life without belief in God cannot be fulfilled. The two are at odds. Belief in man’s evolution rather than creation is illusory at best and certifiable at worst.

  • D.M.S.

    Really. How could you possibly know me Bones. I go to 3 bible studies a week. I want to learn about Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
    Did you read that Mr. Bones.
    Christ Jesus is “ OUR “ Lord and Savior.
    He isn’t restricted to just Christians. He’s here to love and save all of us.

  • I am watching the video but find it tedious. You can approach every question in tow ways; try to prove it or try to disprove it.

    Question for you. Nebuchadnezzar is an historical figure and a biblical figure. What is he doing in the bible that presumes him to be real but David not so much?

  • Herm

    I revealed my source of whom you are blind to.

    the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    bye

  • Herm

    … and your guide into all truth is?

  • Ron McPherson

    I’m incredulous Wid is even still posting and even more astounded that he continues to insist he states truth while doing it. It’s one thing to do so when evidence remains hidden. It’s quite another when the evidence has been revealed for all to see.

  • D.M.S.

    What truth? That they’re sinners, the same you and I are.

  • D.M.S.

    I’ve forgiven you, Bones.
    Even if you do hate me.
    We’re all sinners, Bones.

  • D.M.S.

    Yes we will.

  • Truth-tellers claim to tell the truth.
    Liars claim to tell the truth.

    Which are you? How could we tell?

  • And if I investigate and find that you are not correct and/or truthful, what then? Did I just not look in the right place? Do I trust my lying eyes?

  • Cake

    What would you call 50 million aborted babies since 1973 in this country?

    Ooooh look at you going all emotional with the false tears.

    I would call it the exact same thing you call the BILLIONS dead babies from failed pregnancies since 1973. Only 50% of pregnancies go to term while the rest are aborted “naturally” by a woman’s body. I notice your fields are completely barren of fucks to give about that.

    They are not babies, they are not people. A seed is not a plant, a blueprint is not a house. And you know this. Your political leaders know this. Your activists know this.

    By your utter lack of action we know you.

  • Cake

    If by in here you mean on this site, by all means I belong here.

    Meh, with your last sentence you’ve already demonstrated poor reading comprehension. What you’d argue I’d expect to be of similar quality.

  • Meh, meh, nothing better to do than reply in the void?

  • rationalobservations?

    The active participation within any brand of religion in Canada is around 13% of the population and in sharp ongoing decline.
    According to the Christian religion of my heritage – I remain a Christian and that may indicate how ridiculous your claims appear to be?

    Life without belief in any gods is fulfilling and rewarding. Religion is fundamentally anti-humanitarian and faith in magic and super-spooks is illusory and delusional.

  • Where is your proffer? Where is your cite? Where is anything to justify your claim, “the non religious significantly outnumber the dwindling rump of eccentric religionists. Those countries are at the top of the annually published “Global Peace Index”. LOOK IT UP.!”
    Get serious or shut up!

  • Cake

    It’s always funny when people like Bob look into a mirror and don’t recognize themselves.

  • Your comment indicates you are a Monster! And I would have to argue you are sub-human yourself.
    Anyone who can argue a fetus is not a baby isn’t worth the time it took to respond. You belong in a Planned Parenthood facility butchering the unborn for sale to the highest bidder.

  • rationalobservations?

    it’s beyond hilarious and more than ironic that someone like you (who buys into such childish superstitious nonsense without a shred of evidence) wants everything authentic handed on a plate to deny and is too damned lazy to do the most basic investigation for yourself.
    Put up or get lost, moron.

  • Herm

    sandidad, God’s word is not Jesus and/or the Bible. You don’t know God! Read your Bible after inviting the only Teacher who can guide you into all truth. Not carnal being on earth can do that for you. If you want Bible references that neither Billy or Franklin will lead you through, I will try to help you.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    I see the Franklinbots have been out in full force for almost a month here. On that note, I think it pretty much proves who the real “Sodomites” are, and it sure ain’t the LGBTQ community.

  • Cake

    You agree that the dead “Babies” caused by abortion are just the same as the Billions of failed pregnancies. Yet somehow I’m a monster.

    isn’t worth the time it took to respond.

    Yet you did.

    butchering the unborn for sale to the highest bidder.

    You lie to yourself poorly.

    By your lies and deceit we know you.
    By your emotional tear-less cries and complaints we know you.
    By your craven and cowardly insensitivity and utter immobility when called to action to protect the “babies” we know you.

    If there was a crak-house in my neighborhood I would burn it down.

    When you’re faced with something much much worse you wring your hands and cry “Monster!” for them seeing through your transparent falsehoods.

    I know you.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Yes you will what?

  • D.M.S.

    Us slaves will serve our Lord Jesus Christ.
    He’s our master.

  • Herm

    D.M.S., what in the hell do you think you have to serve your god, any god with no beginning and no end, who is spirit, who could summon who could summon twelve legions of angels, who created all and could take it all on his/their whim?

    The Christ, his Father and the Holy Spirit of God told of in your bible serves Man, not Man serves God. Man has nothing to give God, that God had not already graced Man. The Messiah did not share the law and commands to suit the whim of God. The Messiah instructs all of Man who will listen, filled with the Spirit of truth, the real law all life must live by or die.

    God is real and the law/commands offered inclusively all of Man, who in everything does to others as each of Man would have others do to them, is what God, all of God in heaven and on earth, knows to live by without end, the Spirit of truth. Your concept is a game of who wins and loses according to the whims of an all powerful god. You just as well would have the same end to your game if you slaved to serve any volcano god.

    God, the god of the Messiah, only asks that you share all your love from your heart, from your soul, from your strength, from your mind, which are all spirit (the image of God graced you that you could never earn), and like that love all your neighbors as yourself.

    I am my Father in heaven’s little child, comparatively knowing and having nothing but my love to share with him, and that is all that serves his will. I am my brother Jesus’ sibling student as he instructs the Spirit of truth, living now with and in me forever.

    Tell me, please, what do you think you have to give God in volunteered indenture service? What have you earned with the life given to you, by no choice of your own, having at your disposal only what was on this earth long before you? Your platitude of false allegiance to a god you do not know is dangerous, as are all judgments based on tribal superstitions.

    Enough!

  • D.M.S.

    Mankind serves God/Jesus.Mankind worships God/Jesus.
    Mankind exalts God/Jesus. Mankind praises God/Jesus. Mankind bows to God/Jesus.
    Mankind fears God/Jesus.
    Mankind loves God/Jesus.
    The mankind that doesn’t do these things serves Lucifer/Satan.

  • D.M.S.

    Are you supposed to be the Bible scholar that Bones was referring too…….LOL.

  • D.M.S.

    You’ve missed your calling you should write fiction.
    You’d give J.K.Rowing and Walt Disney a run for their money, with all the hallucinations that you have.

  • Herm

    I asked you a question! Is this just a game to you?

  • Herm

    There really is a Spirit of truth as Christ promised, the real Good News you could trust if you only knew him!

  • Herm

    What does Man have to fear of a God willing to die for them?

  • Herm

    If you’re not living with and in the Spirit of truth you serve the spirit of Satan.

  • D.M.S.

    Yes that’s exactly where you are.

    I serve our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

  • D.M.S.

    No it’s not a game.
    Christ Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I serve Him.

    I haven’t the faintest idea what or who you serve.

  • D.M.S.

    I don’t know if you read scripture but it states that we are to fear Him.
    I’d dont believe that scripture lies to us.
    Gen.42:18, Deut. 4:10, Deut 6:2, Ps.19:9, Ps.33:8, 1Peter 2:17,Heb. 2:15.

  • Herm

    the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
    John 14:17

    I don’t suppose you asked him, did you?

    No you didn’t! You don’t see and you certainly don’t accept him.

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
    Luke 14:26-27

    Now, if you really want to serve my Father in heaven’s will start by picking up your cross founded on love… not intimidation, manipulation, coercion, or subjugation (the spirit of Satan). You, right now, are following the tribal traditions of mankind touted by carnal churches having nothing to do with God.

    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
    John 4:24

    This is all you have to do to live eternally, the whole entire service to God, period:

    On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

    “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

    He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

    “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    Luke 10:25-28

    with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind” is spirit, the image of God graced mankind in Genesis.

    D.M.S., you have no clue beyond what preachers and theologians of mankind (Pharisees, Sadducee and teachers of the law) have taught you what the truth of God is. Yet you spout the same bullshit that crucified God in God’s name. That’s serving the spirit of Satan, not the Spirit of truth.

    Why do you exalt yourself in ways Jesus, the Messiah, never did, but those who murdered him did?

  • Herm

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42

    But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    Exodus 21:23-25

    Then the LORD said to Moses:

    Leviticus 24:13

    Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.

    Leviticus 24:19-20

    Which Lord, in which scripture, are you to believe?

  • Herm

    How about following the instructions of Jesus, the Christ who died on his cross for you, rather than Leviticus priests?

  • Herm

    If that were true, I mean really true, you would be following all that the Messiah said in your New Testament, and would trust him not to leave you, or any child of God orphaned.

    By your fruit you are not filled (baptized) with the Holy Spirit and speaking the word of God.

  • Herm

    D.M.S., what in the hell do you think you have to serve your god, any god with no beginning and no end, who is spirit, who could summon twelve legions of angels, who created all and could take it all on his/their whim?

  • Herm

    The second paragraph of the United States Declaration of Independence starts as follows: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

  • I don’t know. Why are you incorrect?

  • How do you know?

  • D.M.S.

    You don’t get to make that choice.
    Thanks to our good Lord.
    He does.

  • D.M.S.

    John 10:30.

  • D.M.S.

    And by what I’ve read from you.
    You don’t follow Him..

  • D.M.S.

    Christ Jesus of the New Testament, is the same God of the Old Testaments.

  • Herm

    Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
    John 14:19-20

    I and the Father are one! … and my brother Jesus, the Christ, are one. I am in my Father and my Father is in me … I am in Jesus, and Jesus is in me.

  • Herm

    By what I’ve read from you, you don’t know God any more personally clearly than did Caiaphas. Why do you think that is?

    Caiaphas, the Levite high priest who judged the Son of God to die in God’s name, a wealthy Sadducee scholar, knew God only from the first five books of your Bible (none of the books of the prophets). The world was flat and all the heavens revolved around the earth in Caiaphas’ mind.

    By what evidence do you know God better than Caiaphas?

  • D.M.S.

    You’re not my mentor.
    The HolySpirit is.
    Caiaphas was blinded by Satan.
    We have all been blinded by Satan at some point in our lives.
    The HolySpirit is now in my life and is teaching me.
    I will still stumble and sin, again.
    But I will confess those sins and keep growing in Christ Jesus.
    I hope the same for you.

  • Herm

    If you personally knew the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, with and in you this moment, guiding you into all the truth you could bear forever more, why would you need the Bible?

    If, as is written in Acts 4:31 in your Bible, you were actually filled (baptized) with the Holy Spirit, as they were, wouldn’t you be boldly speaking the word of God without your Bible … the Bible they did not have?

    What makes you any different than Caiaphas, a Sadducee scripture scholar of the Levite tribe, who by your Bible you would know could have asked the Holy Spirit, in the Holy of Holies, if Jesus was the Messiah or a blasphemer? The high priest had the privilege of counseling with the Holy Spirit given him by God, according to your Bible.

    According to your Bible you have the privilege of counseling, your heart, soul, strength, mind filled and whelmed with and in the Spirit of truth today.

    By both your and Caiaphas’ fruit, it is clear that you are not with an in the Spirit of truth today. As was Caiaphas, you are dependent on what your scripture and your teachers of the law share with you as truth. You both exalt yourself judging to crucify children of God in the spirit of Satan, in God’s name. You carry a sword of war, not a cross of love for your enemy.

  • Herm

    … and so you blindly admit that the Spirit of truth is neither living with or in you this moment.

  • Herm

    Who told you that?

  • Herm

    What’s to say that you are not “blinded by Satan”?

  • D.M.S.

    I have the same question for you.

  • Ron McPherson

    A couple of years ago I personally had to come to grips with the fact that I had to make a choice. Either try to live “by the Bible” or live by the Spirit directing me to the words of Jesus. I chose the latter and feel I was set free by it.

  • Herm

    How do you know?

  • Herm

    Why?

  • D.M.S.

    LOL….I thank the good Lord that He is my Savior.
    Amazing you use scripture to condemn scripture.
    Definitely Satan is in your heart with that belief.
    I’ll take and live the Lords scripture over your Joseph Smith likeness.

  • Herm

    Thank you Ron. It is clear.

    I’m feeling like it is time to go even deeper into reality to hopefully help others find freedom from the evolution of scripture study … into an eternity of relationship with the Spirit of God.

    Today, it seems so simple to be certain it is the God of eternal love within whom we are growing. Yet, we keep getting these people, who have no more evidence of God’s reality than did Caiaphas, who insist that they can judge better all transgressions against constructive life in God’s name.

    They based their judgments, mostly intimidating with the threat of eternal torture, solely on scripture as directed by their modern day high priests, scripture authorities (Pharisee and Sadducee???), and the scribes who copied their scripture according to their logic (teachers of the law).

    The Spirit of truth, as told of by the words of Jesus, is real, as you know … they don’t.

  • D.M.S.

    I see we agree.
    Their Joseph Smith ( aka )
    Benjamin L. Corey is their god.

  • Ron McPherson

    People worship the Bible without realizing it. They’re essentially taught to and it leads to some very troubling mindsets among us. Ultimately, the Bible becomes a tool such that one’s interpretation of it becomes conflated with God, which then means God is created in one’s own image. I was there myself. When you’re mired in it you can’t see it and would die defending it, all while holding a sincere belief you’re defending God.

    I in no way discount the benefits of scripture because it’s words have brought great comfort to me, and hopefully will continue to do so. However, I recognize that it wasn’t the words themselves, but rather the Spirit. If I become riled over biblical criticism, then that should be a big red flag that maybe, just maybe, the Bible has become the God in my life.

  • D.M.S.

    Benjamin L.Corey believes that the tribulation is past tense
    Which means everyone who follows his blog. Also believe that.
    In other words the 1000 year reign of Christ Jesus is past tense.
    I googled Benjamin L.Corey his beliefs are quite bizarre.

  • D.M.S.

    Christ Jesus did.

  • Herm

    D.M.S., it would be so simple to just leave you hanging by repeating what is clearly written in your Bible referring to the Spirit of truth. You don’t know what you don’t know. You are blind to what you cannot see, even when you have been directed, by your Bible, by me, by Jesus, by many others living with and in the Spirit, to read the possibility that there really is a Spirit of truth capable of guiding you into ALL truth (truth infinitely beyond what your Bible could contain) forever.

    If your god were all powerful … If your god could be trusted to protect you from all evil (that which is destructive to life) … If your god has not abandoned you and is available to communicate directly with you today, at your level of awareness … what is so hard about giving, in all humility, yourself totally to your god to trust that he/they will certainly provide your daily sustenance, have freed you from all that you owe because you have forgiven all that was owed you, can surely guide you out of all destructive temptation and will deliver you from the prevailing spirit of evil?

    I did 24 years ago and was freed from the very subterfusion (the spirit of evil) that led Caiaphas, the high priest of God’s chosen people, to punish by death the Son of God in God’s name. I became a totally dependent child of God and no longer dependent upon Man to provide my sustenance, protection and teaching, ever.

    The Good News isn’t, and never was, that Jesus paid the price for our lives that we might live. The Gospel was never about some religious ritual and incantation that suddenly cleansed mankind from a fall that they never really ever had over their entire 300,000 years of existence on this earth. Mankind’s salvation was not on the cross (for all children of God learning under the Messiah instructions must carry their own cross, by our Father’s will, that their neighbor and their enemy might live). The Good News, that thousands knew and chose to die for before the Bible was written, was that the Holy Spirit, the Advocate, the Spirit of truth, the true light who was in the beginning, the I am, the one appearing as a dove to whelm the Christ was no longer only conferring with the high priest behind the curtain of the Holy of Holies. The new and only high priest of the temple (which is spirit only and worshiped in the spirit only) is the Messiah forevermore, now with ALL authority in heaven and on earth for God’s children, born of the Spirit. So it is written in your Bible and yet you religiously hold onto your Bible, supported only by the traditional theologies (studies of God) of your carnal family and/or idolic carnal church replica, in place of the Holy Spirit in your midst. You cannot be filled, whelmed fully, with the Spirit of truth and leave room in your heart and mind of spirit for your carnal bible.

    I, as did Jesus before me, can only testify that God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the children (Jesus’ siblings on earth and in heaven), and so much more than I can bear to know at this time, is real and available to to you. The “rock” of Jesus’ church is not, never was, Peter. The eternal solid foundation of the Messiah’s church is the Spirit who told Peter’s heart and mind of spirit that Jesus was, in fact, the Son of God. The same Son of God Peter later denied any affiliation with before the cock crowed three times.

    The Spirit of truth guiding me into ALL the truth I can bear forever more, without pause, is how I know to see that I am not blinded by “Satan”.

  • Herm

    D.M.S., Caiaphas used scripture to condemn Jesus.

    What, exactly, have you been taught that you are saved from?

  • Herm

    That’s not an answer but a defensive deflection. Why do you need both if the Holy Spirit knows all truth to guide you into as you can bear? Do you actually need an eternal litmus test to prove that the Holy Spirit is living with and in you fully?

  • Herm

    What is the source of your certain proof?

  • Herm

    That is a blind statement of judgment, no more informed by God than was Caiaphas, not supported by your Bible!

  • Herm

    How did Christ Jesus tell you that “Christ Jesus of the New Testament, is the same God of the Old Testaments“?

    Do you believe that Jesus, the Christ, is your brother in God, living with and in you right now?

  • Herm

    YES!

  • C_Alan_Nault

    You are free to believe that if you wish. And according to the Bible, people can buy,sell,and own other human beings as their slaves.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Until someone proves a god actually exists,there is no reason to believe a god exists or that a god created anything.

    Mental disorder?You mean like a delusion?

    With no evidence to show for a god’s existence, belief in a god must be taken on faith.

    Faith has a few definitions.The definition for faith as it applies to believing a god exists is ” firm belief in something for which there is no proof”.

    The definition for delusion is: “a persistent false psychotic
    belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that
    is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary”

    With no evidence being presented for the existence of a god and with no evidence
    being presented to prove any of the miracles described in the Bible
    happened, believing a god exists is delusional & so is a mental disorder.

    “Everyone chooses to be homosexual.”

    Homosexuality exists throughout nature in hundreds of species.Did those animals choose to be homosexual?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Unless someone proves a god exists,the word sin has no meaning.

    If you believe the Bible,will you forgive god if he asks to be forgiven for his sins?

  • D.M.S.

    That doesn’t matter.
    What matters is serving God/Jesus.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “you can try and twist the truth about the Bible”

    If you believe the Bible,you believe that slavery ( buying,selling,and owning human beings as property) is OK.

    ” but you homosexual lifestyle is an abomination against God. Period.”

    Until someone proves a god exists,your statement can be dismissed as nonsense. Period.

    “homosexual lifestyle is an abomination against God”

    And according to the Bible,what is the punishment for homosexuality?

  • D.M.S.

    The inerrant word(s) of God/Jesus.
    John 10:30.
    How did God the Father send God the Son to save all of humanity, if God the Son didn’t exist in the first place?

  • D.M.S.

    1 John 2:15-17.
    Tell Ron M.we Christians worship the inerrant word(s) of God/Jesus thru scripture.
    Where do you Formerly fundies get your directions from our Lord God/Jesus?

  • D.M.S.

    Yes. But they’re blinded by Satan and they don’t see it.
    They may even of been blinded by God/Jesus because for their incessant blasphemy of Him.
    The Lords patience only goes so far.
    We don’t know if they’ve reached that plateau with the Lord God/Jesus.
    But we Christians are to keep believing that all can be saved from the world.

  • D.M.S.

    Yes, that’s exactly what the lost like yourself believe.

  • Herm

    “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

    “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

    John 17:20-26

    The Bible is not inerrant, only the Spirit of truth is. The Spirit of truth fills me, whelms me (not over, not under), with ALL the truth as I can bear, with or without the Bible that you choose to worship above God to test God, and their children, by, as did Caiaphas.

    The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 1:9-14

    “The true light” is the Holy Spirit that the world was made through. To all who see him, receive him and believe in his name as the Spirit of truth, he gave the right to become children of God, born of God. We have seen his glory shining through Jesus, the Christ, who received him appearing as a dove. The Word became flesh, even after Jesus ascended into heaven (which is spirit, not carnal as is earth), witnessed when those in Acts 4:31 were filled by him to glorify God through them boldly speaking the words of God.

    If you were to do exactly as is stated in Luke 10:27 do you truly believe you would live, eternally with and in God who is spirit? Does it say any where that you first had to have Jesus pay your price?

    Where do you read that all of humanity has been saved, or, is it possible by the words of Jesus in your Bible, are only those who live with and in the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, the true light, living in “complete unity” saved?

    In Luke 9:30 were Moses and Elijah alive?

  • D.M.S.

    All of them?

  • D.M.S.

    LOL…

  • Herm

    Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

    1 John 2:15-17

    Jesus did not say the above but he did say something more pertinent to love of anything in the world:

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27

    The word “disciple” means no more than student, in this case Jesus’, having been whelmed by the Spirit of truth, student.

    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV2011)

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Matthew 5:43-48

    The Lord my God, my neighbor and my enemies are in this world and I love them all. My enemies are only those who do to me, and mine, as they would not have me do to them, and theirs. My neighbor is like the Muslim is to the Christian who does to the other as (s)he would have the other do to her/him.

    D.M.S., it has been clear from the beginning that you, and your Bible fundamentalists, worship scripture, in the same exact spirit of the fundamentalist authority Caiaphas worshiped his scripture as inerrant. We don’t have to be told why you persecute children of God so with your blind and ignorant judgments in the name of God.

    This, too, is what Jesus told his neighbor, the Samaritan woman, regarding worship:

    “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:21-24

    I don’t worship God, my Father, and/or my brother Jesus, with and/or in the Bible, or with and/or in anything of this world that is physical (carnal). I worship only in the Spirit and in truth!

    That is where we get our directions living with and in our Lord God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and all of God’s children born of the Spirit.

  • Herm

    … humorously said the blind and deaf man to his blind and deaf dog before walking off the cliff to their death, spiritually speaking …

  • Herm

    All of who?

  • D.M.S.

    Again.
    You should think about writing fiction. Your hallucinations are golden. I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time.
    “ Christ Jesus came to save the entire human race from their Sinfilled desires.”

    It’s amazing that you can’t see that.
    But that’s how the ‘ lost ‘ are such as yourselves.
    That have no clue who Christ Jesus really is.
    I’ll pray that you wake up and see His truth.

  • D.M.S.

    Your the one who stated ‘ all of them ‘ in your fi