Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference July 24, 2013

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One of my biggest pet peeves in this world, is when folks in my tribe play the “persecution” card.

On one hand, we can’t help it– we’ve been programmed to label any negative experience related to our faith in the category of “persecution”. However, we should know better– and should know that this is actually hurting the Christian reputation in America.

I remember being well primed to interpret any negative push-back I might receive for “witnessing”, as we were warned about the coming persecution during campfire services at Christian summer camp. I still remember sitting around a campfire in Schroon Lake, New York and hearing: “Don’t worry– when you get back home you won’t have to leave your unsaved friends. When you get home, they’re going to leave you.”

test-di-rorschachIn fact, I remember “Blessed are you when you are persecuted” to be one of the first verses a camp counselor had me memorize.

Ugh. In American Christianity we love persecution.

Like a Rorshach test, we are able to see it anywhere we look.

We are so culturally programmed that there “will be persecution” that we develop a persecution complex which causes us to look at any given ink blot and see an intriguing case of anti-Christian discrimination.

What is most sad to me, is that this is hurting the message of Jesus– a beautiful message that I want everyone to hear and experience. However, because of our persecution complex we are often seen as cry-babies– who are constantly crying “Wolf!” no less. As a result, a lot of people are turned off to Christian culture, and by default turned off to actually wrestling with the message of Jesus.

Yet, have no fear– I am here to help. Today, I’m going to give you a quick and easy walk through of some real scenarios that will help you gauge whether or not you are actually being persecuted for your Christian beliefs.

Persecution Test

Lesson 1:

  • In Odisha, India, some villages have banned Christians from buying or selling in their local markets as well as banning them from getting drinking water from the local well (forcing them to drink non-potable water from the river). When the Christians have rebuffed this prohibition and used the common well anyway, they have been chased down by angry mobs and severely beaten. If this is happening to you– if your neighbors are telling you that you can’t shop at Target because you are a Christian and that you can’t draw your water from the town’s aquifer because of your faith (and beat you mercilessly when you take a sip), there is a good chance that you are experiencing legitimate Christian persecution.

In contrast:

  • annoying-co-workerIf your co-workers leave the break room when they see you coming, no longer invite you to happy hour, and generally walk in the opposite direction when they see you coming due to the fact they are tired of you forcefully trying to convert them in every conversation… you are not experiencing anti-Christian persecution. Instead, you are simply being persecuted for being annoying. Don’t like it? Good news– the persecution for being annoying will stop as soon as you decide to no longer be annoying.

 

 

Lesson 2:

  • If you are a member of the Christian clergy and find yourself kidnapped, beheaded, and the next day find a video of your beheading posted on YouTube, I think you have a legitimate case of anti-Christian persecution. In fact, unless you signed a model release before your execution, you should be able to get YouTube to take the video down.

In contrast:

  • what-to-do-with-bad-coworkers-i15If you are a non-commissioned officer in the Army and find yourself receiving a reprimand because your non-stop, anti-gay statements are making your co-workers utterly miserable, you are not experiencing anti-Christian persecution. Instead, you are being persecuted for updating your Facebook status with: “Lordy, Lordy, it’s faggot Tuesday. The lefty loons and Obamabots are out in full force” (As in the recent case of Master Sergeant Nathan Sommers). When you post nasty, offensive status updates, persecution is a natural byproduct.

Lesson 3:

  • If you are holding a quiet prayer meeting when police decide to raid your home, confiscate your books, and throw you in prison for being a Christian (as happened in Iran to Robert Asserian), you might have a pretty convincing case of anti-Christian persecution. If they keep arresting you over and over, and beat you senseless each time, the case becomes more and more convincing that you are in fact, the victim of persecution.

In contrast:

  • hers_n_hersIf you are facing a massive fine and a lawsuit because you didn’t want a lesbian couple to buy flowers from your shop to have at their wedding, you aren’t facing anti-Christian persecution. You are simply being persecuted for illegal discrimination, and for being a hypocrite. You do know, that at most weddings there’s a couple of drunk people, and that the Bible is quite clear that’s wrong, correct? You must also be aware, that sometimes Christians marry non-Christians (forbidden in scripture), and that some couples (SPOILER ALERT!) have had sex before marriage, which is also condemned in scripture, correct? So, if you have decided that you’re not going to sell flowers to gay people, but that you’ll still allow your flowers to be purchased for events that will include drunkenness and heterosexual fornication, you my friend, are a hypocrite. What you’re experiencing isn’t so much persecution, as it is justice.

 

I think the reason why the American Christian persecution complex troubles me so much is because there is plenty of real persecution going on in the world. Yet, when we take negative push-back we receive as a result of our own arrogance, insensitivity, and hostility– and call that persecution– we cheapen and detract from the real examples of religious persecution in the world.

When Christians who are being thrown in prison or beheaded are overshadowed by stories of American Christians who get in hot water because their public business discriminates, or because they’ve made their co-workers miserable, we become guilty of self-centered arrogance.

Being persecuted for our faith is different than being persecuted because we’re acting like jerks.

 

If you are a Christian in America and frequently feel persecuted, please do us both a favor and examine your own behavior and communication style. Are you accosting people with your views? Are you treating friends and co-workers like objects to be converted instead of people to love? If so, you’re doing it wrong– and you are experiencing justified push-back, NOT persecution.

And, even if you do face some legitimate persecution, just remember– as long as you still have your head on your shoulders, it’s not as bad as what others face.

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  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    If you ask me, the reason these “Christians” do those kinds of things in the first place (the “Contrast” examples you gave) are because they’re trying to cover up or disassociate themselves with anything else that could be considered a sin in the bible (although IMO they generally do a pretty lousy job – I think the first few verses of Matthew Chapter 6 alone are verses these people violate on a regular basis). Since they don’t want to talk about their sins, or won’t admit that they’ve sinned just like everyone else, they try to find something else to pass off as an even greater sin.

    That said, it certainly does irk me when they try to claim they’re being “persecuted,” as persecution actually DOES exist in the world, and I think being beheaded or brutally beaten because you’re praying silently in your own home is a far more equatable scenario to persecution than being told to shut up because you’re irritating the people around you with your whole “God this, God that” mumbo jumbo.

  • Mario Rodgers

    As a former Christian, I can’t say I’ll miss the whole enchilada. Except maybe the food. To be “Christ-like”, if such a way possibly exists, is just to be a human being. What need does a person to acquire a sense of entitlement called “being saved”? What desire does a person to condemn others to some fictional realm of the afterlife called “hell”?

  • Mario Rodgers

    As a former Christian, I can’t say I’ll miss the whole enchilada. Except maybe the food. To be “Christ-like”, if such a way possibly exists, is just to be a human being. What need does a person to acquire a sense of entitlement called “being saved”? What desire does a person to condemn others to some fictional realm of the afterlife called “hell”?

  • Dave The Sandman

    Great article there mate and wonderful to read an actual reasoning Christian sounding off about all this fake outrage for once. Couple of issues though with the pictures:
    1) The one of the Christians being eaten by lions at the top. Yeah…. didnt really happen as much as it is supposed to have according to recent research covered in the press last year. Turns out it may just have been a couple of particularly sick shows thrown by Nero.
    2) That picture at the bottom next to Mr Crockoduck Cameron – the one showing a “Christian” being beheaded by Muslim extremists. Again that’s not what it says it is. Its a still from a video that originated in Syria of a group of anti-government militia men executing a man they said was fighting for the government side. (They were wrong as it turns out). Thing is they are Muslims and so is he. Seems some less than honest Christians got hold of it and started falsely circulating it, and it went viral even after the source and “Muslim on Muslim violence” content was verified and the Christian beheading story was utterly refuted.

  • HiHoSilver

    I’m not a Christian but I agree with what you’re saying. Plus – I love the pic of Kirk Cameron at the end who must’ve been the biggest douche in the film industry when he shunned his cast members during Growing Pains because of his newly found religion. Another excellent case of faux persecution.

  • MoodyMoody

    Hobby Lobby’s objections aren’t even to abortion but to contraception. (Yes, I know it objects to abortion as well, but I don’t believe ACA requires abortion coverage, only contraception coverage.) I 100% agree that the CEO is trying to control the private lives of his employees.

  • readerdeb

    Just a quick correction: it was a wedding for two gentlemen, not two lesbians as stated in the link above, that caused the flower shop in Washington state to be sued by our Attorney General. I live in the community where this occurred, and I have to say the issue is a pretty hot topic around here. I, and many others around here, have chosen to boycott the flower shop in question.

    Thank you for being a voice of reason and love in the Christian community. As an atheist freethinker, I keep coming back to your column for a breath of fresh air!

  • thepixinator

    Number one is spot on! (Really, they all are). This ex-coworker used to come accost me at my desk and ask me if Jesus Christ was my lord and savior, even after I told her repeatedly I was raised Presbyterian – like that even matters! I should have been able to tell her I was an atheist and to back off, or whatever, but it was one of those places that people had worked at forever, and I was a newbie, and Lord, it was just Hell. Funny how Christians can actually make others so miserable in their attempts to “spread the good news.” Good news would have been never hearing about anything but work at work. There should be a law against religious harassment in the workplace. Dear God, please save me from your followers!

  • DB

    hmmmm facist much?

  • Tina Shontz

    What if I agree that you can believe whatever you want, and agree that I may be going to Hell, but it’s MY business, and I ask you to cease and desist? If I’m a sinner, you should be praying for me, not preying ON me (especially in a place of business — anyone who harangues people at work — about anything — should be fired).

  • In light of what’s happening in Nigeria – contrasted with “free speech” in ‘Murka.

  • meekinheritance

    There are applicable laws against harassment. Check with your H.R. department. It sounds like you’re in a “hostile work environment”.

  • As a Christian Humanist, I have tried to explain this to my more conventional Christian friends many times. Thanks for sharing this sentiment.

  • CassandraJK

    Cystic fibrosis is a metabolic disease affecting the lungs – I believe you meant cerebral palsy, which can cause physical tremors and dyskinesia.

  • thepixinator

    Sadly, that company shut down (one of the last of the U.S. apparel manufacturers), but I thought about it at the time!

  • Dan Weeks

    Correct. As an atheist, I find myself making these very same arguments in “discussions” with fanatics of every denomination. It’s refreshing to see this level of reason from the other side. If only the majority of Christians were like Mr Corey here, I don’t think there’d be such a rift between faith and reason in this country.

  • NStormRider

    I know enough engineers (some of which are Rocket Scientists) to state with authority:

    I wouldn’t want one as President. And most wouldn’t want to BE President.

    An actor has specialized themselves in being able to empathize with and portray a wide variety of people, and control their presentation in public and in private. A SUCCESSFUL actor likely has the ability to impress quickly and well, and maintain a wide array of connections. A rocket scientist, on the other hand, understands properties of materials and aerodynamics incredibly well. However, his primary focus is on precision and repeatability, not communication and networking.

    The job of president is one of social authority and decision making. It
    is not a number crunching game, and the right decision for the country
    isn’t made by balancing an equation. The only reason to prefer a rocket scientist to an actor is a biased and uninformed faith in the quality of their career choices.

  • NStormRider

    Being a human being is involuntary. You don’t get to strip membership in the human race from screw-ups.

  • B33b3

    As someone that works at Hobby Lobby, and has heard many statements about the lawsuit, I am in a position to tell you that, there was NEVER any intention of closing Hobby Lobby, nor was there ever a point in which it might have happened. In fact thousands of new stores and warehouses are being opened in just the Midwest alone. Hobby Lobby closing was a myth, and there are plenty of statements given out to every single employee numerous times.

  • wordaddict

    I won’t disagree that he’s making Christians look bad, but it’s not anyone’s place to say he’s not Christian.

  • wordaddict

    As someone raised Christian, I can tell you that if you think your faith is about *making* people follow the letter of the law, about selling cosmic fire insurance, or all about the “immorality of homosexuality”, you’ve missed the whole point of Jesus’s sacrifice.

  • Divdar

    You don’t have to be from a denomination to be a fanatic. There are plenty of non-religious, atheist fanatics as well. People aren’t any different whether they are religious or not. We all have the same faults.

  • Dan Weeks

    Incorrect. People are very different, especially if they’re religious or not. The person who argues for reason and science is very very different than the person who holds up God Hates Fags signs at soldiers funerals.

    But you’re right in that all people have the same kind of faults. Being an atheist makes a person no more automatically good or better than being religious. That being said, can you give me an example of an atheist fanatic? I’m wondering who you’re basing your prejudices on.

  • You don’t think that your side has fundamentalists as well? You guys have the same exact problem as my side has.

  • The Father Teresa

    The writer is still affected by the camp fire teaching.

    Note that he still called all the reactions to x-tian ass-holery as “persecution.

  • Jennifer Wilson Basinger

    The issue isn’t with birth control it is with the TYPE of birth control, abortifactant vs. conception preventative. They are against providing the former and do provide the latter. I personally know that Hobby Lobby provides excellent health care options to their employees.

    “The Greens, anevangelical Christian family that owns Hobby Lobby, and the Hahns, a Mennonite family that owns Conestoga Wood, offer employee health coverage that complies with the Affordable Care Act in every way but one: Faith forbids them from paying for contraceptives that can cause early abortions, such as the morning-after pill. Because they do not cover four of 20 FDA-approved contraceptives, HHS seeks crippling penalties on their businesses.” http://www.marshfieldnewsherald.com/article/20131221/MNH06/312210066/

  • Dan Weeks

    I’m afraid I disagree with you there, Mr. Corey, with all due respect. But you might be right. I did ask the gentleman above to name an atheist fanatic, just to maybe gauge what he and you mean by “atheist fundamentalist,” a term I’ve never heard of.

  • lanceburson

    Being a lefty Christian in the Deep South isn’t as difficult as I think it is, but it’s extremely annoying. This post represents how I feel 100 percent. Thanks for being in my head and heart.
    Merry Christmas
    Lance aka @lanceburson on the twitter

  • Ian Nairn

    Judging by this article you would say that the early Christians who lost their livelyhood for being Christian weren’t being persecuted. We are very close in some countries in the West to see that happening and from there worse will happen. While our persecution in the West if far different from those who are either getting killed or threatened to be killed for their faith, we are actually not to far from that they way the West is falling

    There are different levels of persecution and you don’t have to be at threat of your life to be persecuted. I mean the Jews weren’t straight away put into gas chambers and killed for them to be persecuted under the NAZI Regime. The first sings of persecution were rather quite innocent, but they became further severe as time went on. While what is happening in the West is the worst kind of persecution, persecution has to start somewhere. I guarantee that within five years we will see Christians losing their jobs for their beliefs and you here whine about the so called non persecution and by the time it is time to talk up about persecution, it will be too late for you to say anything.

  • Battynurse

    Great post. So much of your descriptions of your childhood resemble mine. Factor in that and multiple relatives who refuse to even acknowledge my existence (including my mom) and I have a hard time with religion. It’s nice to read a perspective from a Christian who is not loudly proclaiming how everyone has to be just like them.

  • Dan Weeks

    2 months and no reply…

    Ah well. Take all the time you need.

  • jamesleeland

    Jesus Christ was clearly warning Christians to be Alert and Watch. He is clear that Christians will be marked for extermination, by State Authority,World Wide.

    This is indeed,The Tribulation, in the years before Jesus’s Return, True Christians are the obstacle stopping the Plan. A transhuman agenda elite declaring itself God, claiming War God Omnipotence over every Human Life, engaged is Satanic conspiracy. It begins with massive depopulation of America and all Nations – thru war, starvation, disease and environmental catastrophe. The Elite believe that they will soon achieve Immorality and are in conspiracy to kill most of the Worlds Population within a Generation, The stage is set for The Beast to appear soon. True Christians understand that these events herald The Anti Christ who assumes Power to become God while with the intention of exterminating Christians and all Mankind.

    The Tribulation refers to the years when these events take place, leading up to his Jesus Final Return and the rapture of The Martyred. The Christians alive during the tribulation, perhaps now, are never raptured. They are here to witness during the Great Harvest of Souls. The full, terrible, unimaginable nightmare of Satanic Ritual Mass Sacrifice will become reality, ONLY then will Jesus Return – Stopping the complete extinction of humanity.

    All Christians can do is be Alert and Watch, as Jesus instructed, during these last days. Its all In the original Gospel of Mark, c. 70 A.D. as as close as we can get to The original Words of Jesus, himself, without any filter.

    It is clear that Christians will be hunted by the State, around the Globe.

    Christians will be rounded up, and executed for their
    Faith. Its happening now in the Middle East now and will spread to
    Europe, The West and America. Understand The Rapture happens when he Returns. The Rapture deception is allowing American Christian Church’s the leverage needed to make money while supporting The Beast System in place today. But deceived or not, American Christians will, like their current brethren overseas, be rounded up as Jews were during the Holocaust.

    When enough will follow the engineered conditions, The Tribulation, the complete extermination of all Christians on Earth, will begin.

    So few realize that the The Bible and The Christian Religion were hijacked from the start.

    Inquisitions to crusades, the Church was corrupted, Satanic agendas and Evil Men in Jesus Name committed sinful atrocities, in direct defiance of Jesus Commandments. Because the Bible includes hidden codes, astrology, borrowed ancient mythology, plagiarism and fabrications added – some discount the New Testament Central Message. The Essence of Jesus Message is Simple:

    “…One of them, a lawyer,
    asked him a question, testing him. “Teacher, which is the
    greatest commandment in the law?”

    Jesus said to him,
    “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your
    heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great
    commandment. A second
    likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ The whole law and the prophets
    depend on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:34-40

    LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR – that’s what True Christians stand for.

    THE ONLY RELIGION JESUS SAID GOD ACCEPTS, IS THIS

    Pure and undefiled religion before God and
    the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, to
    keep oneself unspotted from the world.

    AND THE ONLY RELIGION JESUS GOD ACCEPTS

    Real Christians Practice Benevolent Love to All
    People regardless of their past or present. All are equal sinners
    before God and with Free Will anyone can decide to follow the Central Commandments To Love God and Love Everyone.

    Christs example would mean the end of this current
    system and is therefore a threat to The Elite. Once you remove
    Christianity, the industrial killing of dissidents becomes permissible
    and necessary to preserve the State.

    Our Salvation in Christ is all we have when The Lawless One can declare
    Omnipotent Power over everyone on Earth. All who are declared extremist will be classified as Enemies of the State – The falsely accused need not be found guilty because the new meaning of due process, is state sponsored liquidation.

    The Elite have declared the Power to eliminate
    anyone accused of extremist potential, as revealed here,
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/obama-kill-list-doj-memo

    True Christians are Thankful and Alert. They are Benevolent in Action and Perceive Truth from Deception, because of Salvation from Evil. That is why they are Hated by the World.

  • AmericaRising1

    You sir Benjamin Corey are my favorite Christian blogger ever. Thank you for your insight and for helping to change my views on so many different issues. You are awesome!

  • Jenni W

    However, the CEO of Hobby Lobby seems to want to reserve the right to deny coverage of the morning after pill because he BELIEVES it to be an abortifactant and it is not. He wanted to claim that because he believes a drug to do something it does not, he should be allowed to deny his employees the choice to use the drug– he believes he knows better than his employees and their doctors, partners, parents or even the drug manufacturers because of his Christianity.
    You should know, Jennifer, that the morning after pill does not cause abortions. If a woman is already pregnant, the morning after pill has no effect on the pregnancy or fetus. It’s basically a very high dose estrogen pill. Unfortunately, people like Mr. Green would rather spread misinformation than cover preventative birth control for his employees.
    Anyway, it just irks me when these bigger cases result in the further spread of lies and misinformation– it seems to be the point, and since the morning after pill is NOT an abortifactant no matter what you believe, this really is a case of the CEO exerting control over his employees’ contraceptive choices. Odd that he does not seek a ban on condoms. Just the kind of contraceptives that women can control for themselves…

  • A. Lee

    Have those things personally happened to you, or to people you know? Or are they things that have happened to other people, or can happen? Not asking as a loaded question, just out of curiosity.

  • A. Lee

    You’ve said that “any attempt to silence the truth is persecution.”
    Do you aknowelge that other religions exist?
    Do you recognize that all other religions believe themselves to be the only true religion, just as you do with yours? And that they all have their own prophecies, stories, holy texts and personal experiences to support that belief, like you do?
    If so, then how could you possibly assert that your religion is so objectivly “the truth” that anyone who does not activly believe in it is persecuting you? That’s where fundamentalists differ from the rest of Christianity. (Of course, if you believe that you have an objective reason or evidence that tells you fundamentalist Christianity is the truth, I ernestly welcome you to share it with us, and allow us to test it so we can hold fast to what is good).

  • A. Lee

    You make a fair point; I agree, it’s not as if everything short of being decapitated over one’s faith is not persecution. The author’s point still stands though, in that a lot of the things that fundamentalists claim to be persecution are simply the reactions to them being close-minded and over-zealous. We have to use our discernment in regards to this sort of thing. For instance, what kind of examples make you think that “we are actually not too far from that they way the West is falling”?

  • Heather Lee

    Beautifully said! Thank you for attempting to shed some light on the differences.

  • Steven Waling

    And I once had a book of his that claimed Marx was a Satanist because he had a big beard…

  • David

    I appreciate the main gist of this argument, and have had this conversation before. However, you’d be a bit more effective if you were a little more fair in your representation of the opposite side. You will only convince those who are already convinced by the use of sarcasm and patronizing. If you want to convince those who do not already agree with you, you’re going to need to be a bit more cool-headed. Unless you could care less about reaching people and you just want to post a tirade, then be my guest. I enjoy reading it. But if you want to make a difference in people’s lives (and not just tickle the ears of those who are already on your side) you could utilize a bit more civility. I am by no means suggesting that the falsehood that resides in popularly recognized fundamentalism is “ok” or “something that should be tolerated.” Just giving some tips on how to actually change their minds and promote truth and unity in Christ rather than promote and praise division and dis-harmony – just like fundamentalists do.

  • Here’s the thing, Its not a Christian matter, its a people matter. Its about kids all over the world who need medicine, clean water, education and a safe place to live. Its about people all over the world who want to help children like that, and who are being kept out because of some ridiculous notion that they aren’t good enough because of their orientation, their religious choice, or because of their belief in equality for all who get are walking around on this planet.

    It’s frustrating for those who are repeatedly told, “go away, you offend me” when all they want to do is help. Its tragic when idealism trumps compassion, and its maddening when we are told to be peaceful and quiet about it all, while marginization, opression, homelessness, hunger, death, pain, mourning, injustice rage on.

    Sometimes you do need to get angry…sometimes you just to get good and pissed, and to channel that emotion into positive change, to step up and say, “no more” and to be a catalyst to demonstrating what true love, true compassion, true generosity, true neighboring is all about.

  • I grew up as a religious minority. I was the only person in my school, until siblings came up behind me, who didn’t observe traditional holidays. We had dietary restrictions that were deemed odd, dress codes that were wierd, and religious observances that made for employment and educational inconveniences or hardships for many of the members.

    That is why I advocate and support fully complete religious freedom for all variations of faith. I know what it’s like. What you represent is religious extremism. While it is practiced individually, it is illegal in this country. I don’t care if someone worships coke cans, to them their religion is valid. As long as their faith does not promote or cause physical or emotional harm to themselves or to others, I respect and support their desire to adhere to their faith.

  • David

    Just don’t forget that fundamentalists are people too who need to be brought into the light. Fundies need reached too. And sarcasm and patronizing is not the way. How do I know this? Because I used to fit that mold and I still live and minister among the conservative independent fundamental baptist world because I love those people. And I know that s&p only make fundies more militant in their efforts. And I know they are not a lost cause. You harp on fundies for dismissing anyone who does not fit their mold, while at the same time dismissing them for not fitting your mold. I’m sure you’re going to have a long snide remark but I don’t really care. I’m still going to love the fundies and try to reach them and bring them into true religion. You want fundies to treat homosexuals as real people. I would like to see more people like you treating fundies like real people as well. People that God loves and wants to fellowship more intimately with in deeper holiness and truth, just like homosexuals.

  • Jennifer Wilson Basinger

    The PDR (Physicians Desk Reference doesn’t support your statement that Plan B has no effect on the pregnancy or fetus if the woman is already pg.

    “MECHANISM OF ACTION

    Emergency contraceptive; works mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary. May also work by preventing fertilization of an egg or by preventing implantation to the uterus.”

    http://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/plan-b-one-step?druglabelid=573

  • DrVanNostrand

    So many unsupported assumptions and logical errors in this response, so little time.

    First, you believe that the owner of Hobby Lobby can afford to provide health insurance. However, why does your desire or the federal government’s desire as to how that individual should spend the company’s money trump the owner’s desire? Also, who has the authority to determine who or which company has sufficient money that is greedily being withheld? I find it alarming when others make moral proclamations that they know how to better spend or distribute another’s financial resources.

    Second, your economic argument is too simplistic. Hobby Lobby is a privately held corporation. The primary legal duty of a corporation is to maximize profit for the shareholders. Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that Hobby Lobby acquiesces to the ACA’s mandates and provides fully compliant health coverage to all qualifying employees. However, in doing so, the company’s profit margin is diminished. With a diminished profit margin, the stock then becomes less attractive to investors and many shareholders sell the stock. The stock then proceeds to further decrease in value, thus resulting in reduced market value and decreased funding for continued operations. As a result of this course of events, the business becomes less profitable and is forced to close stores or cease operations altogether. Now, I acknowledge this is speculative and that these events have not happened, but I raise this scenario to point out that a corporate executive has a legal duty to be mindful of various company actions could affect the company’s value and potential net earnings.

    Third, you criticize the Hobby Lobby owner for declaring that the company may be liquidated if it is compelled to comply with certain ACA mandates. Is the business owner not free to do as he or she sees fit with a business? Should a business owner be compelled to operate a business in a manner that the owner believes violates his or her conscience?

    Fourth, you suggest the Hobby Lobby owner should accept the Court decision regardless of the outcome. Should civil rights activists have refrained from protesting against Jim Crow laws? Plessy v. Ferguson and the doctrine of separate but equal were the law of the land. By your reasoning, civil rights activists should have accepted the Court’s ruling and lived under the system imposed by the states pursuant to that ruling.

  • Jay Howard

    You’ve distinguished between different levels of persecution, but persecution doesn’t begin when you’re facing death immediately. It begins when people insult you for living a godly life in Christ (Matthew 5:11). Part of godliness is speaking out against evil you see in one’s life while still loving the sinner, realizing your own sinfulness after pulling out the plank from your own eye through abiding in Christ with the Holy Spirit’s power. That speaking out includes taking unpopular, politically incorrect and untimely stances on issues that lead the public astray, including, but not limited to, homosexuality and abortion. While it is true that some claiming to be conservative Christians speak truth without love and are “clanging cymbals” (1 Cor. 13:1), there are just as many who embrace a phony, superficial “love” that rejects the absolute truth of the Gospel by embracing homosexuality through the lens of complete “tolerance.” Authentic Christians worship the Father in spirit and truth, regardless of the costs involved. If one desires to place any part of the Bible above another section in terms of importance, or to reject a part because he or she doesn’t agree with it, that person is creating a personalized, salad-bar style Christianity that will not lead to salvation. Paul’s writings on immoral lifestyles that include all kinds of sexual sin, idolatry, and greed examples are just as relevant to the Christian today as anything Jesus said. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).

    For those readers interested in being exceptionally tolerant and open minded, I would pray that you would remember that “small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:14). Question those who wish “to collaborate in the development of new ways of being Christian…new ways of doing theology and living biblically, new understandings and practices of mission, new kinds of faith communities, new approaches to worship and spiritual formation, new integrations and conversations and convergences and dreams” (canainitiative.org). See if what they say is truly biblical and not influenced by popular movements in secular media or culture. We live in the end times and there are many false prophets and healers speaking in Jesus’ name. Have the fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom and discern wisely.

  • Stogumber

    Obviously if someone is forced either to leave his business or to leave his convictions, that’s a kind of persecution. (All the more in a case when someone has intentionally chosen an independent business where his convictions wouldn’t interfere with co-workers or bosses). I wouldn’t want Mr. Corey to go through such a thing.

  • Greg Wiens

    There is truth to this article, but the problem is that the author set up straw man arguments against persecution in North America. When ever you take the most silly and extreme example of any group and then apply this to “all the Christians” then you are not being fair.

    It is true that Christians in many parts of the world are experiencing major persecution, but there are many scientists in North America that find if they express their personal faiths they find that they cannot get promotions, tenure and are generally marginalized.
    Another one in Canada is that if you are part of the NDP and just recently part of the Liberal party (historically the Liberal party was the Centrist party) and you claim to be pro-Life you are banned from being in the party.
    Both of these are persecutions because of faith.
    You can take all the silly excuses for what some people claim to be persecution, but others impact people’s lives in a major way.

  • Krispin Mayfield

    I think 1 Peter 4:15 makes a pretty good delineation, a lot of the above fake persecution could go under the heading “troublesome meddler.”

  • Thanks for the good word Benjamin! I am linking up to your post on my blog today about persecution! I think that real persecution hasn’t come to America yet but I also think that it will eventually come and we need to make sure we are prepared!

  • I agree that there are some situations in America where you can have mild persecution. However, the main point here is that we should make a big deal and pull the persecution card whenever we get laughed at. It’s this kind of playing victim that is so terrible, especially when there are millions of Christians who face persecution in the form of torture and murder.

  • Chris Larosa

    Ben – I just read this post, but it is so spot on. I was laughing out loud (literally), I confess, a little out of spite. I have suscribed to Voice of the Martyrs for years and it helps constantly remind me 1) how to pray for those who are GENUINELY persecuted, 2) thank God daily that I live in America, and 3) that the mantra of ‘persecution’ OBO Kirk Cameron, AFA, Tony Perkins, Ted Cruz, and the host of fundamentalist whiners is a laughable joke. These people, if being genuine (can they?), can’t possibly take this ‘persecution’ garbage seriously. Looking at the recent SCOTUS Hobby Lobby ruling, I’m certain there are those that are jumping up and down over winning a battle…but lose focus on the fact they’ve lost the war in the greater scheme of things. May the American Church stop whining about their rightfully-diminishing freedoms to persecute and discriminate, and instead take up their crosses and start serving the orphans, widows, and stand in the gap for those unjustly treated. Yep, pretty much everything Jesus did on Earth.

  • I am just seeing this response. I am surrounded every single day with people who’s religious beliefs are vastly to the right of mine. I grew up in a fundamentalist cult. I have family members, one still in that religious movement I left, and others in conservative churches. Just because I starkly disagree with their theology and some of their views on society, does not give me or anyone an excuse to diminish their worth as a human being. I live and work with people every single day who’s faith, politics and outlook on society are vastly different than mine.

    Do I consider myself superiour, because they don’t see things my way? No. That would be presumptuous and wrong. I just know I view the world differently, yet there is much that I have in common with these, my neighborsDo I want my fundy peers to see my gay peers who are also my and their neighbors, as real human beings? Of course. Therin is where I feel the difference. I know my fundy neighbor is as valuable as my gay neighbor, and all I meet are my neighbor, even if I don’t like them very much.

    I see all people as valued, loved by God, even those who’s beliefs and actions I find dangerous and destructive. I struggle to love them, God does not. I admit its hard, sometimes impossible, God does not have that problem. I want to love like God does, and that, to me, means that opinions, beliefs, theologies, traditions and dogmas are less important than people. I’m never going to perfect a love like God’s, but I’m gonna try.

  • J. Gandarilla

    When we start cutting their heads off, they can talk about persecution.

  • WilmRoget

    “there are just as many who embrace a phony, superficial “love” that
    rejects the absolute truth of the Gospel by embracing homosexuality
    through the lens of complete “tolerance.””

    No, when your evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is rejected because of the evil it produces, that is not persecution. After all – because of ‘homosexuality is sin’, GLBTQ people experience:

    “when people insult you for living” and assumed that your life is not “Godly”, and they assume that their desire to deprive you of basic rights is.

    “Part of godliness is speaking out against evil you see in one’s life
    while still loving the sinner, realizing your own sinfulness after
    pulling out the plank from your own eye through abiding in Christ with
    the Holy Spirit’s power.”

    No. That is self-righteousness, the opposite of being Godly.

    “Paul’s writings on immoral lifestyles that include” your slander of GLBTQ people. As a slanderer, you are barred from the Kingdom of Heaven untill you repent.

    ” Have the fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom and discern wisely.”

    This advice you really should live before you offer it to others. You cannot be ‘godly’ when your theology is destroying people, as yours, Jay, kills people.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    What happens here in America is the so-called “victim” is usually a street preacher, baker, business owner, or TV personality who has gotten into hot water for saying something offensive about or doing something offensive towards a certain group of people (usually the LGBT community or members of a different religion, and many times based on false pretenses – such as the notion that people “choose” to be gay) and who try to invoke their “Christianity” as an attempt to rationalize their behavior.

    If said person receives backlashes for their comments, what they are experiencing is JUSTICE, not persecution, and the reason for them experiencing it is not so much for being “Christians” as they are for being morons. For instance, how do you like being in a grocery store when a four-year-old kid throws a temper tantrum because his mom won’t buy him a candy bar? I see no reason to react any differently to a street preacher screaming his lungs out about some random thing for everyone within a mile to hear. It’s loud, obnoxious, and over time becomes very unpleasant to have to listen to. Why should I think any differently of the latter? Because the preacher claims to have read the Bible, claims to be more familiar with Christianity than those around him, claims to be speaking God’s Word, and claims to have been “appointed” by a higher power to be a jerk to everyone around him? It’s his loudness and obnoxiousness – in addition to his vitriol and elitism – not his religion, that annoys the people around him.

    I have a hard time believing that the same Jesus Christ who taught that we should “do unto others as [we] would have them do unto [us]” would mean lying about or offending a whole group of people and irritating a whole block with nonstop rambling when He said that verse.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    “Matthew 7:22 – 23Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
    thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done
    many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

    Has it not occurred to you that this is a verse you could apply to yourself as well? Especially with the statement you made directly after it?

    “Those out there professing the ‘good news’, (and yes that ‘good news’ is also condemnation of sin ) are doing the will of G*D.”

    Again, I have a hard time believing that God’s will is about trying to spread misinformation about people you don’t like (speaking of sinning) or making everyone on a street corner wish they had earplugs. On the other hand, maybe the bible itself can shed some light on how God’s will plays out:

    [Matthew 6:1] “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.”

    Hmm…maybe this thing you like to call “persecution” is all just part of God’s way of telling you and your ilk that it’s time to shut the hell up already.

    “Whether you like it or not you are a sinner and just because

    the world is re-writing what sin is, the LORD is the

    same yesterday, today and forever.
    You can chop it up anyway you want, but you are responsible for the lies you tell these people.”
    Again, something else you should apply to yourself as well. And yes, I realize that everyone sins, and that’s all the more reason why we shouldn’t go around judging the sins of others. Do you want people attacking you for yours? No? Then shut up about everyone else’s.

  • Rachel

    Benjamin Corey, you are a breathe of fresh air! Thank you for the much needed societal reality check:

    “What is most sad to me, is that this is hurting the message of Jesus– a beautiful message that I want everyone to hear and experience. However, because of our persecution complex we are often seen as cry-babies– who are constantly crying “Wolf!” no less. As a result, a lot of people are turned off to Christian culture, and by default turned off to actually wrestling with the message of Jesus.”

    People bloated with their own self-importance are the exact opposite of who Christ is, but unfortunately their swollen egos have no room for reflection. Nonetheless, keep the truth coming, because it will reverberate with some and that makes it well worth it. Again, thank you.

  • usorthem3

    Your god says all non-believers must be put to death. How many have you killed today for your gods glory? 2 chronicles 15 13

  • Morgan

    I belong to a religion that really IS persecuted in this country–Wicca. Many of us choose to conceal our religion in public or at work and sometimes from Christian relatives because we ARE persecuted, and it’s so-called “Christians” doing the persecuting. So before they start howling about their fake “persecution,” let’s talk about how it is MINORITY religions that are REALLY being persecuted!

  • P. McCoy

    Pro lifers care only about conception to birth. The Ayn Randist, Libertarian, Tea Partier, Republican and Christian Conservative votes for policies that deprive families with Born children of food, shelter, education and healthcare.

    They aid and abet aggressive so called free speechers who harrass Women they don’t know seeking contraception and abortions. They inspire criminals who vandalize or blow up abortion clinics and hurl death or threats of harm against abortion providers.
    They are Domestic Terrorists wishing to impose a segregated Christo Fascist Taliban view of the world on the United States.

  • P. McCoy

    We need to modify the Constitution to disengage Christian Fundamentalists and Roman Catholics from all areas of governance and influence of social policy akin to what the British Penal Laws were able to do for the UK.

  • J.L.Guest

    I Completely Agree With You!!

  • J.L.Guest

    Absolutely! This is my official thumbs up. :)

  • J.L.Guest

    This is absolutely wrong. How subtly you twist the truth, it reminds me of the devil.

  • Jeff Preuss

    The couple is not trying to “ruin her,” that’s a nasty bit of spin being perpetrated by the Alliance Defending “Freedom.” The state of Washington was the first to sue her for violating their anti-discrimination laws in the public sector, which carry a fine of 2000 dollars (plus legal fees that the state’s attorney dropped to a single dollar, to encourage her to settle), a fine she is steadfastly refusing to pay.

    She has broken the law and she is facing the legal consequences for it. That is not religious persecution. That is not the couple and the state out to “ruin” her. Their separate suits were combined into one that was offered to settle at $2001. She sells floral arrangements for $100 a pop. $2001 will likely not break her, make her lose her business, her home, her cars, etc.

    The original suit from Ingersoll and Reed was for “for $7.91 (the cost of driving to find a new florist).” http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/19/relationship-with-jesus-doesnt-justify-florists-refusal-to-serve-gay-couple-judge-rules/

    Now, characterizing this as trying to make the florist destitute, simply because you don’t agree with the sexual orientation of the plaintiffs? “Tell me, do you really think that’s fair?”

    Baronelle Stutzman is NOT being persecuted.

  • Jeff Preuss

    No, she is not. She is “martyring” herself for an unjust cause. Religious liberty is not the liberty to discriminate against other people. She is NOT being told she may not worship the god of her choosing — she is being told she can not use that belief to unjustly discriminate against customers based on their sexual orientation, which she was found guilty of doing.

    Again, NO ONE IS OUT TO RUIN HER. Except maybe her own arrogance and pride, and perhaps the ADF lawyers in the name of this battle over marriage. As I stated above, court and legal fees were dropped to a single dollar in the settlement offer ( http://www.atg.wa.gov/news/news-releases/statement-attorney-general-bob-ferguson-concerning-arlene-s-flowers-same-sex ), so concerns about exorbitant damages and fees as-yet-sought amount to little more then hyperbole.

    “When one freedom goes so the rest will follow.” Funny you don’t see the civil rights of a gay couple as a freedom to worry about losing.

    Bill of Rights text about that freedom of religion thing: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ” NO lawsmay be based on the adherence to tenets of a religion. FREE EXERCISE of religion only extends so far that you don’t impose your religious beliefs upon others. She chose to do business in the public sector – that means doing business with the public. In her home state, that is defined as INCLUDING homosexuals.

    “Baronelle Stutzman supplied flowers to Ingersoll for 9 years and has
    also employed homosexuals. It was only the wedding she could not
    service. She even went so far as to try and help them find another
    florist.” Then she supported their dating life for nine years (shouldn’t she have thought that was a sin she could not condone?) and took a stand for the “sanctity” of marriage (a peculiar sticking point for many that we are not especially called to defend anywhere in Scripture)? She, by her own admission, had not refused to do a wedding in 37 years. Do you think she vetted alllllll those other ceremonies to ensure they aligned perfectly with her version of Christian morals? I doubt so.

    She refused their wedding ceremony because they were gay. She discriminated, illegally and unfairly. She attempted to perpetuate bigotry in her decision, not a particularly Christlike example, and she is facing the consequences for her actions, not being targeted for her religion.

  • MegaBen

    Definition of persecution: a persecuting or being persecuted.

    Definition of persecute(-cuted)(-cutting): 1. to afflict or harass constantly so as to injure or distress; oppress cruelly, esp. for reasons of religion, politics, or race. 2. to trouble or annoy constantly.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV) 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    ESV: nor men who practice homosexuality

    NKJV: nor homosexuals

    KJV: nor effeminate

    The Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin.

    Matthew 19:4-5 (KJV)
    4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
    5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
    6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Hebrews 13:4 (NIV) Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

    KJV: 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

    Jesus declares, as does God’s word, that marriage is between a male and female. God’s form of marriage should be honored by all. Homosexuality is sinful. Likewise, homosexual marriage is sinful and dishonorable to God’s form of marriage. To God it’s not a form of marriage at all. Male and female is God’s form of marriage. Male and male or female and female is not.

    A homosexual wedding is a celebration of sin. You can love sinners, but to celebrate and support their sinful behavior is not right for a Christian. You can give gay people food to eat, but to cater a gay pride parade is wrong.

    In regards to the florist (and bakers now), their Christian convictions prohibit them from participating in homosexual weddings. To do so would be sinful.

    In staying true to one’s Christian convictions, it may sometimes require breaking the law. The florist had a decision to make. Stay true to God or promote sin. In choosing to stay true to God, the florist broke the law. You assume the florist was a hypocrite. You don’t know if she supports sinful events with her flowers or not. Don’t be judgmental and condemning based on assumptions.
    A Christian staying true to God, that is sued, jailed, or killed because they stayed true to God, and did not follow man’s laws which would require them to go against God are all victims of persecution. This includes a Christian who in staying true to God commits illegal discrimination, their level of hypocriticalness aside.
    In the Bible, Daniel stayed true to God by praying to Him instead of following man’s laws which would had him to go against God, and was persecuted for it. Different degrees of persecution, but all based on the same principle.
    Being jailed or killed for being a Christian are severe forms of persecution. Don’t belittle those who’s persecutions aren’t as severe. If in staying true to God you are forced to break laws and sued or jailed because of it, or people berate you with nasty comments all the time, or you are fired you from job, it’s all persecution.
    I suggest you reconsider what fake persecution vs. real persecution is, and find a better way to write an article about it. With all the degrees, honors, books, and tv stuff you have I’m disappointed with this article. It’s not very well written or thought out. You may know theology well, but you need to work on applying that to daily life scenarios. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing you wrote this article while in an angry mood. It gives off a cynical vibe.

  • Shelly Groves

    There is persecution in North America. If you are denied to practice your profession because of your beliefs. Please read: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christian-leaders-say-faith-under-attack-in-canada-by-governments-regulators-1.3008916?fb_action_ids=10155433518345346&fb_action_types=og.shares
    Do you think a professed Christian school that denies acceptance because of faith (or lack there of) is wrong? Or once you complete your education at said school you should be denied to practice your profession? Your views please

  • Jeff Preuss

    “Definition of persecute(-cuted)(-cutting): 1. to afflict or harass constantly so as to injure or distress; oppress cruelly, esp. for reasons of religion, politics, or race.”

    You mean the way some Christians treat gay people? It’s interesting that you lead your comment with an assortment of “clobber verses” regularly used to exclude and oppress gay people, then go on to point out how Christians are persecuted when they cannot discriminate against people in the name of “Jesus.”

    It would be amusingly ironic if you didn’t take yourself so seriously.

  • MegaBen

    You’ve been a gay Christian for over 40 years? I’d like to hear your thoughts on the following questions, answered Biblically.

    Are all instances of breaking USA laws sinful?
    Is homosexuality sinful in the New Testament era (Jesus til today)?
    What’s God’s version of marriage?
    Is gay marriage a sinful event?
    Is it sinful to celebrate sinful events?
    If Jesus was a florist or baker in today’s world would he help gays celebrate their weddings?

    I consider myself Christian too. I’ve been one for around 15 years. I’m 25 years old. I consider USA/Man’s laws and God’s laws to be different from each other and sometimes remaining faithful to God requires breaking Man’s laws. Homosexuality is sinful, marriage is between man and woman only. Gay marriage is a sinful event. Celebration of sinful events is sinful. Therefore Jesus would not help gays celebrate their sinful weddings, and the Christ-like thing to do is not participate in them. All rationales for these answers are found in my preceding post.

    You cannot honestly defend your homosexuality using the Bible, because the Bible condemns it as sin in both Old and New Testaments. Read 1 Corinthians 6:9. It’s clear homosexuality is sinful and those unrepentant of it will not be going to heaven. Change your ways before it’s too late. We are all born sinners with certain sins coming easier than other sins. Your homosexuality is one of those that came easy to you. God did not create you to be gay. You have a choice. Choose to follow God or your sinful nature. You can’t serve two masters.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I have grown up in the church, and I am 43. I officially came to Christ when I was 10 or 11, and puberty happened right after that.
    I am not answering any of your questions, because I don’t have any compelling reason to defend my faith to someone like you.
    I don’t serve two masters, and it simply isn’t your place to validate that.

    So, I will reiterate. I am a Christian. I am gay. And the two are not incompatible.

    Worry about your own sinful nature instead of making condescending proclamations about others.

    I’m guessing you wrote your comments while in an angry mood. It gives off a pompous windbag vibe.

  • MegaBen

    The Bible clearly states homosexuality is wrong in the New Testament. Check out this link:
    http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
    If you’re a gay Christian you are living in unrepentant sin. Thus you would be trying to serve both God and your sinful nature. Read 1 Corinthians 6. I’m trying to help you realize the way you’re going is not a good way to go. You need to repent.
    The Bible makes the condescending proclamation, not me. You can’t validate your homosexuality using the Bible. That’s the real reason why you don’t answer my questions. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality as sinful. You can’t prove that it’s not using the Bible.

    Perhaps these 2 sites can help you:

    https://answersingenesis.org/family/homosexuality/pro-gay-theology-does-the-bible-approve-of-homosexuality/

    http://www.studyyourbibleonline.com/theology/homosexuality-what-does-1-corinthians-69-11-teach/

  • Jeff Preuss

    I don’t need your sites’ “help.” God is fine with my sexuality.

    “That’s the real reason why you don’t answer my questions.” HA! No. It’s really not. I didn’t say I can’t answer your questions; I said I won’t. Because I do not need approval from you. I am not an unrepentant sinner.

    “The Bible makes the condescending proclamation, not me.” No. YOU made your proclamation condescending with your first words on here. You are not speaking “truth in love” or any other euphemism for thinly-veiled bigotry.

    Thank you for proving my point and Ben’s – you would rather continue to persecute and oppress, and whine about persecution when you are told not to. You’re not in charge, Megaben, God is, and my relationship with Him is just fine.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Also? Answers in Genesis? HAAAAAAHAAAHAHAHAAHAAHAAA. No. If I want ANY bits of Biblical truth, I won’t be getting it from that site.

  • MegaBen

    And once again, you back nothing up with Biblical scripture. Yes, God is in charge. That is why I follow the Bible, and it states that homosexuality is wrong. You would be wise to repent of your homosexuality because God is not fine with it.
    Jesus says in Revelation 22:15 that the sexually immoral are not in heaven. Romans 1:20-27 clearly says homosexuality is perverted (sexually immoral). 1 Corinthians 6 talks about homosexuals and how they don’t go to heaven unless they repent and turn from it. Leviticus clearly states it’s sinful too. The Bible isn’t vague on the issue. Homosexuality is a form of sexual immorality. Now you say you have Jesus, but yet you clearly cling to your gayness. If you truly have faith, you’ll at least try to turn from it. James 2:17 says faith by itself not accompanied by action, is dead. Matthew 7:21 says not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do God’s will. The Bible clearly says homosexuality is sinful, yet instead of acknowledging that and repenting, you deny it and don’t have any guilt or remorse about it.
    Instead of listing Bible verses and supporting your views, you refuse to use any of God’s word. It seems like all you want to do is whine and avoid a discussion with actual substance. It’s clear we both follow different forms of Christianity. If all you want to do is whine then go right ahead. Yet if you don’t back up your beliefs with Biblical scripture you’ll never change my mind, and I’ll continue life as I have. What’s your point with all your postings across multiple articles? Unless you start backing yourself up with scripture, all people are going to see is another whiny homosexual in denial of the truth.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “And once again, you back nothing up with Biblical scripture.”
    And, once again, and for the final time, I will reiterate: BECAUSE I DO NOT NEED TO PROVE MYSELF TO YOU. I do not care to engage with you about the debate over what you think I need to do. Because I don’t need to do it. And it isn’t your call to make.

    The rest of your screed? TL;DR

    Go back to your persecution complex.

  • DrewTwoFish

  • Eva

    Well said. You could not have made your point more clear. But, if someone does not recognise the Truth the only thing you can do is pray for them. Therefore, you should pray for him (maybe you have already). If you are wrong (which I know you are not) it can only improve his life. But, if you are right (which I believe you are) maybe God will help him to realise that homosexuality is a sin. God Bless and keep up the good work. The world could do with more people like you.

  • Julie Travis

    Thank you Corey for this injection of sanity at such a crazy time…I agree completely.

  • Julie Travis

    Hi, Jeff. God bless you and keep up the good fight. I am not gay but have friends who are and I am horrified by what is going on in the Christian church right now. Christians are no longer in a position of power, so now they are grabbing at anything they can to try to regain control. But Christianity is not about power. God bless.

  • Julie Travis

    All this stems from the ridiculous doctrine of biblical inerrancy, which says that everything in the Bible is absolutely, literally true. In my opinion, this is idol-worshiping the Bible. The Bible is a lens through which we see God, it is not God itself.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    There’s some really good points here and i agree for the most part though there is one inaccuracy. Scripture does not forbid the marriage of non-Christians. in fact it even states that it can lead to the conversion of non Christians. In the old testament which the Jewish laws of which were abolished, scripture forbids marrying foreign wives. this does not carry over into the new testament in Christs church. aside from that i think this is a great article and makes a great point.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    Did Jesus declare that Christians should rule others or that they should Be meek and humble. Did Jesus declare that Christians should rail against the government or that they should render to Caesar what is Caesar’s.

  • Jeff Preuss

    The number of debates I’ve been in with the other party (internetical-equivalent of) screaming that a believer may not be “unequally yoked” show there are many who would argue that point with you.

    I wouldn’t, but there are more than a few who would…

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    Well it would seem that we are on the same page of this but for the sake of others who might see the post and argue ill add in some more.

    There are also some who would argue that black people are the result of Cain mating with a gorilla (sad but true. there are people who for some reason believe this) but when you look at scripture its clearly not supportable.
    When it comes to marriage scripture states that those who have married unbelievers should not divorce them. and goes on to state how this could hopefully lead to their conversion.
    Clearly if the bible is taken as an uncontradictory piece of work then being married to an unbeliever is either not considered being unequally yoked by the standards of god. (which could make some sense as it is a union where they become one and that would of course make them equal, at least that’s how i see it) Or being unequally yoked is up for judgement and is situationally/circumstantially based as the bible clearly doesn’t have a problem with believers and unbelievers not getting a divorce and staying married.
    Personally i tend to think its both. Everything must be taken in context.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Context IS key!

  • LivinginVA

    Does the florist ask potential clients if they’ve been divorced? If not, then they have more likely than not celebrated weddings that are (according to Christ) adulterous in nature. If they don’t ask, then they are putting their desire to make money above their religious convictions.

  • SoF

    I think this applies to more than just Christians. We seem to have become a society of whiners. Someone is constantly pissing and moaning about and/or blaming everything on their skin color, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, age, weight, religion, etc., etc. It’s reached the point that I don’t even pay attention to it any more. It’s losing it’s efficacy and becoming a joke.

  • Anarhija Je Sloboda

    Stop the Anti-Whiner Persecution you horrible persecuting persecutor!!

  • Mark Rodriguez

    The secular world always uses a spectrum to promote their invented terminology so why is all of sudden persecution just something extreme or just something we hear about in a nation outside the U.S. I think there is a lot of bias in the article even though I think it’s still far worse in some nations in the world. Because Christians are uniting and associating with things that are invented to take the place of biblical wisdom and truths they wouldn’t call anything persecution, and too they are inconsistent in many of their ideas and thinking. Persecution has a starting point. It starts with evil thoughts so seems like someone doesn’t really care about the rights of Christians at least here in America.

  • DrewTwoFish

    Ah! The worship of scripture. It warms my heart.

  • bamared2222

    You may think you are being clever, but most of what you say is a load of crap. You can take all your degrees (I have four myself) and toss them if all you have to do is mock Christians. True, real persecution has not been experienced by Christians in the U.S., but it is creeping ever closer because religious freedoms are being attacked and denigrated. As far as the gay issue, you are dead wrong. We DO have a right to our beliefs and our conscience and it is NOT the government, but Christ, whom we are to obey. Is abortion right? Maybe you believe it is okay. Should we have to promote the gay lifestyle? Apparently you think so, but I don’t if conflicts with my heartfelt conscience against such. We don’t have to reject gays or even dislike them, but we should never feel forced to acquiesce to them and their demands. I perceive that you have a weak view of scripture and are following the current social norms of society in forming your beliefs.

  • bamared2222

    Then what does the Bible mean when it instructs us to not be “unequally yoked together?” Yes, people have married unbelievers, but the Bible teaches the best relationship is with another believer. The OT taught Jews not to marry foreign wives for the simple reason that they were idol worshippers and heathen and instead instructed them to marry an Israeli.
    And by the way, though Christ fulfilled the law, God did not do away with the OT; Paul says in I Timothy 3, verse 16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” Besides, Jesus quoted OT scripture many times and felt it was necessary. Some of our best lessons and understanding come from the OT.

  • bamared2222

    Okay then, who wrote the scripture? Do you know? Who is called the Word of God in the Bible? If the Bible is not inerrant, then who is the judge of what is right and wrong and what is truth and fallacy? If you do not take it as truth, then you become the judge of what is true or not. By the way, believing the Bible is reverence of God’s word, not idol worship. I don’t know any Bible-believing Christian who “worships” the Bible. In fact, that terminology is just a bit offensive to me. The Bible is God’s revelation of Himself to sinners in a lost world. It would also be interesting to know what you believe about the creation, miracles, the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc.

  • bamared2222

    And what about the chaplains in the armed services who are denied a right to witness or preach Christ as the only savior? It is atrocious what has happened in the military. The woman who was court-martialed for having a verse of scripture or some current Christian salutation on her desk? Outrageous.

  • bamared2222

    We are to stand against evil. Sorry, but you don’t even have an understanding of scripture.

  • bamared2222

    That is NOT harassment; MegaBen is simply quoting scripture. Our duty is to share with these folks in all of those categories that their behavior is sinful, but God had a savior to take away that sin.

  • bamared2222

    In your dreams they aren’t compatible. You go right on believing that lie because if you HONESTLY read the scripture, you would be convicted just like a thief or murderer who continues to do what he has always done.

  • bamared2222

    Well, then remain in your ignorance.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Remain in my ignorance? “Answers” in Genesis is replete with ignorance.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I have honestly read the Scripture all my life. That it doesn’t fit your narrative of it doesn’t make it a lie.

  • Jeff Preuss

    MegaBen was not simply quoting Scripture, and you full well know it.

    YOUR behavior here is sinful.

    [Edit to fix a spelling error]

  • Julie Travis

    It was written by a group of men who then voted on which parts would be included. It was not written like in the Ten Commandments where God etches it on a mountainside. I figure out what is right or wrong by using the Bible along with other sources and with prayer. In my opinion, only God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are infallible. To ascribe inerrancy to the Bible is then assuming that the Bible is God. Guess we can agree to disagree about this…God bless you.

  • bamared2222

    Answer my questions then. God and His word are inseparable. Again, who wrote the scripture? Apparently you think it was Paul, Peter, James, John, Moses, etc. They were only the scribes but II Peter 1:16-ff tells us who the real author was:
    16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[b] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is the author of scripture, the men were only the scribes. That is what sets it apart from any other book in history. How could Moses possibly have known what happened at creation? He couldn’t; God gave it to him to write down. The same with the other authors.
    As far as the relationship between God and his word, Read John 1: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God.” Jesus was the Word. Be honest and examine the Word. If you don’t believe it, then what hope do you have? Why would you call yourself a Christian or go to church if you don’t believe it. You can’t take part and throw out the rest. I am sorry, but I am an apologist for the Christian faith. You need to understand if you are genuinely in the faith. What is your basis for salvation?

    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • bamared2222

    No, that is exactly what he was doing and you have tried to turn it around and make it into something else to suit your own ideas. My behavior was not sinful, just straight forward. Some people cant deal with the truth.
    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • bamared2222

    Like I said, believe what you want and see where it leads.

    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • bamared2222

    Besides being ignorant, you are also close-minded. I guess you would believe scientists and evolution instead of reading about the One who was actually there at creation. LOL Believe what you want but those people in that organization are eminently qualified scientists and researchers.

    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • Jeff Preuss

    No, Dennis, YOU cannot deal with the truth that you do not get to insert yourself into my relationship with the Savior. YOU are not the judge of whether my faith is valid. Why don’t you go back to simply sharing your life and faith and wanderings instead of condemning your gay brothers and sisters in Christ?

    I have all the truth I need in Jesus, and YOU do not get to control it or suppress it. For shame.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Close minded? Pot, meet kettle, Bossy Britches.

  • Jeff Preuss

    If I get there first, I shall save you a seat at His table, where we shall be eternally in communion. Together.

  • bamared2222

    All I can say is I hope you do.

    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • bamared2222

    Hardly. I have spent over 35 years studying, both sides, thank you very much. You need to rub the soot off your face…LOL
    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • bamared2222

    You judge yourself against the Word. I don’t have to judge you, but if I witness you in a sinful act of some sort I should tell you about it, otherwise it brings reproach on Christ. I can make you aware of the word and what it teaches. But it is like the old saying: “You can lead a liberal to the truth, but you cant make him think.” LOL
    By the way, have you ever heard the words rebuke in scripture? It is for correction, by speaking the truth in love. Proverbs is replete with many references and so is the NT.
    2 Timothy 4:2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. Titus 1:13Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. Titus 2:15Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. The word correction is also used to correct wrong or immature understanding of scripture. Proverbs 9:8Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. Proverbs 12 Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid. Proverbs 10:17He who keeps instruction is in the way of life, But he who refuses correction goes astray. Proverbs 15:5A fool despises his father’s instruction, But he who receives correction is prudent. 2 Timothy 3:16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished… Hey, these apply to me as well as any other Christian.
    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • Jeff Preuss

    Oh, gosh, Dennis, I can see you’re still trying to talk to me. Except you’re simply not being a kind or just person (to me and others on this blog), and I have no reason to further subject myself to your misplaced wrath.

    Go in peace – do no more harm to your fellow followers of Christ. Let go of your anger and fear. You are simply not in control — God is, and He is big enough for both of us to follow Him. Just be careful you don’t overlook the reality of God in others’ everyday lives.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    You must have missed this part of Ben’s post:
    “Being persecuted for our faith is different than being persecuted because we’re acting like jerks.

    If you are a Christian in America and frequently feel persecuted, please do us both a favor and examine your own behavior and communication style. Are you accosting people with your views? Are you treating friends and co-workers like objects to be converted instead of people to love? If so, you’re doing it wrong– and you are experiencing justified push-back, NOT persecution.”

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    sorry for the late reply i just now noticed the notification. I agree, that normally the best relations are often wrought between believers, how ever this is not to say that i believe that this means you are sinning by marrying a non believer. in fact even in the old testament there was an occasion when God told a prophet to marry a harlot. albeit to make a living analogy but still it happened.
    while God did not entirely do away with the old testament, it’s still sinful to murder, lie, cheat, etc etc the commandments, the old Jewish laws were done away with. there is no new law that forbids the marrying of unbelieving wives, and the old law would not even make sense as it pertained to Jews marrying foreign wives, and the vast majority of Christians now are gentile.
    while it may be unwise and dangerous to marry an unbeliever it is not forbidden and it can be used to spread the faith. i do not think that the reference to be unequally yoked was meant to be taken as a warning against a sinful action. and to back this up i would reference 1st Corinthians 12-15

    12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

    15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    also, interesting passage i had just found when replying to bamared2222 1st Corinthians 12-15 would be a good passage to show those who try to use the passage about being unequally yoked.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    actually i do have an understanding, i may not have the best understanding compared to some, but i do understand that we are to live UNDER the government and are to endure injustices. I do understand that we are to reach out those who are lost to sin and attempt to save them. i do understand that we are to lead by example . perhaps instead of just making a short statement and then accusing me of being stupid you should explain and back your self up with scripture.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    you mention two options, but you have excluded a third option. there is a way to keep in God’s law without breaking man’s law. remove yourself from the situation. the florist could choose to close shop instead of breaking any law’s spiritual or worldly, of course she could also change her policies in order to prevent the dangers being discussed here.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    Jeff Preuss makes a point initially, it is true that many claiming to be christian act shamefully towards sinners, even going so far as to sin them selves in their actions towards them up to and including murder. this happens even in america. and it makes for a harder time showing people that Christianity is the better path. though i do not agree that megaben is guilty of harassment here.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    I’m not sure that i would classify your behavior as sinful but it’s definitely aggressive and short sighted.

  • bamared2222

    I wouldn’t disagree with most of what you say. I would point out that the passage you reference is referring to believers who are already married, while a passage in I Corinthians points out the importance of Christians to marry each other: 14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
    And your reference to Hosea’s wife in the OT was an illustration to Hosea and Israel that the nation was like his wife Gomer who was a harlot and had sought other gods and idols. Ideally, it is far better for Christians to marry other believers that there be harmony between them. In some cases, both may be unbelievers at marriage and then the other get saved which is what your passage was describing. Take care.

    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • $30851753

    Yes, and donkeys fly and the moon is made of green cheese. Such a load of hogwash and delusional thinking is absolutely mind-blowing. The bible was written by men, who took religious myths from thousands of years and incorporated it into the writings that became the bible. Much is made about Paul, and yet Paul never met Jesus. His “holy” teachings came from dreams and purported hallucinations, which today would result in him being committed to a mental institution. God is a man-created myth. Grow TF up already.

  • bamared2222

    It is obvious you are ignorant of spiritual matters and it would serve you well to avoid making yourself look anymore foolish.

  • Jerry Nolen

    Yeah and I guess you were the descendent of a monkey I will now read a couple verses from my bible while you shave the hair off your chest. Any one with your intelligence is certainly wasting your time in here. And I surely wouldn’t want to disagree with your ancestry. What I don’t understand is why someone that believes there is no God spends so much time trying to convince someone else he doesn’t exist. I will pray for you so
    don’t worry.

  • Mabel

    Nice choice of photos, LOL. The coworker one cracked me up.

    The wailing gibbons in the comments below have either forgotten or never learned that the US is a country made up of immigrants, founded by immigrants who set up separation of church and state to prevent exactly the kind of persecution they insist on perpetrating. That is, running the country under the laws of ANY religion.

    What we do have is moral precepts—they apply to pretty much everybody, and they are common to almost all religious dictates. Even the most remote and undiscovered tribes of people have behavioral codes. Humans can’t live in groups without them.

    Freedom of religion means that no one can stop you from worshiping how YOU choose. It does not mean you can take that worship and force those rules on everybody else. When you do that, you actually negate that freedom. Why? Because there are many people who are citizens of this country who are not Christian, or who do not subscribe to the beliefs of your church.

    We don’t run our country that way. If we did, we’d be like Iran or Afghanistan under the Taliban. Do you want to be like Iran? Yes? Well, you should go there then. We won’t miss you. Here, take your box of snakes with you.

    Dear gibbons, next time you start to shout about something, stop and take this man’s advice. Think about how you’re coming off, and about how the person you’re talking to will perceive you. In fact, imagine that Jesus is standing in front of you and you have to explain your position to him. It will be good mental rehearsal for when you die and he says, “OMG REALLY?? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING????”

  • Mabel

    Because you’ve obviously cornered the market on that.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    you could be right but as far as i know it doesn’t specify whether or not its only referring to unbelievers marrying before being saved or not. am I wrong? And yes it was an illustration, But I would maintain that God would not have any of his followers commit a sinful act even if it was to make an example, for God is consistent and perfect. a good example of this is when Abraham was told to kill his son. it was a good example in the end. but in the end God did not actually want him to commit such a horrid act and stopped him.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    What a foul response. Feeling particularly violent for some reason? of course the bible was written by men, its the inspiration that’s claimed to be from God. and do you actually have a source for your knowledge of hte bible’s origins? or did you just assume that? or hear it from somebody? because there is an actual history to the origins of the bible and the books it is comprised of. They still find ancient texts that are the originals of some of the books it’s comprised of every now and then. though its rare and far between. and actually such claims would not land you in a mental institution, there are still plenty of people today (there are even a few in america) who gain cults and such based on their claims that they get “messages from God” or similar nonsense.

  • Alexander Carroll Lovelady

    While what you says makes a certain amount of sense i would argue a point. The bible’s credibility is founded upon being a perfect work because its writing was inspired by God. Surely god would not let the one medium through which people for ages to come after he stops performing miracles and sending personal messages be befouled by men to such an extent that we can no longer discern what we need from it and have to use other sources not from him in comparison to figure out what we should do? as for inclusion are not our current bible’s literally translated from currently existing ancient Hebrew and Greek original texts that have been found? not recopied from older more recent books like the Nicene creed?

  • mindy

    The “demands” of gay people are simple human rights – giving them the same rights the rest of us have. I’m curious where your degrees are from, and in what? Being intelligent, sadly, does not keep one from risking persecution for being a jerk. You’re going there, so you’ll likely suffer it – just remember you’ve been warned. No one is being forced to acquiese to anyone’s demands. THAT is “a load of crap,” as you so eloquently put it. You can continue to espouse your belief that gay=bad all day long if you like. You just can’t discriminate. BIG difference.

  • bamared2222

    So what about the people forced to do “gay marriages,” which by the way there is no such thing. Only an invention of the left to demand others to acquiesce. I don’t hate gays but what is being demanded is special rights and the right to force people against their own conscience. If the shoe was on the other foot, you would not be happy. Why are people allowed to not serve in the military because of their belief in not killing others? Christian people have the same right of conscience so you are violating our rights as well. Oh, I have been warned! That sounds like a threat but I am seeing that is not uncommon for reprobates to react that way, especially if they don’t get their way. Whether you like it or not, even legislate it or not, gay is a perverted and unnatural lifestyle. Unfortunately, a sad way to depopulate the earth. But then the end game of such idiotic thinking is simply not there. I have degrees in English, History, Biblical Studies and an advanced degree in Library Science. It is not the intelligence or even education that matters but common sense and wisdom and I do have that. Unfortunately, your vision is so clouded by the issue that you cannot even exercise good sense.
    Subject: Re: Comment on Real vs. Fake Christian Persecution: how you can spot the difference

  • mindy

    You are so lost in your “faith” that you can’t see the larger world around you – the one that is full of loving Christians who fully support the rights of ALL people. And whether you understand it or not, you DO hate gay people. Hate is rooted directly in fear, and you either fear them because you think being gay is contagious, or you have spent a lifetime hating yourself for some level of same-sex attraction – which is sad, because it’s perfectly normal. You apparently have little understanding of human sexuality and the continuum on which it operates, and the many variations that are perfectly normal. Marriage between loving same-sex partners is not an “invention of the left,” but an acknowledgement of the political left (and many on the political right) that holding back civil rights from a small portion of our population is wrong, whether we personally agree with them or not. No one is being “forced to do gay marriages.” And you missed one of my questions – from where did you receive your degrees?

  • Kevin Qin

    Homosexuality is unnatural? I’m sorry, but that is incorrect, over a thousand animal species practice homosexuality, and since we humans are animals too we also have a right to having homosexuality. You do not have to be homosexual, and since no one is forcing it on you, it won’t depopulate our planet. But then again, we humans have already overpopulated this planet to the point where hundreds to thousands of species become extinct each year due to our expansion among other things, so at least homosexuals are slowing our population growth from destroying the earth. I’m not against having children but we need to understand that even if you hate homosexuality it can help humanity in it’s own way, and it’s not completely unheard of in other species.

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/1500-animal-species-practice-homosexuality.aspx

    http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homosexual-animals

    http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/biodiversity/elements_of_biodiversity/extinction_crisis/

  • Alice Cornell

    i have also seen a chimp rape a frog, does that mean then that rape too is natural? i guess so! that means by yr own standards that rape is an acceptable lifestyle for humans then, right? see how yr logic is severely flawed?

  • Alice Cornell

    arent christians SUPPOSED to share the message of hell redemption and all that? apparently some christians think that trying to save others is annoying and shouldnt be done. i will keep doing my best to do the right things, not according to bitchy humans, but according to what the bible says.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    How ironic that you try to plug the Bible as your reason for “sharing the message” when that book actually encourages Christians to do the polar opposite of that.

    [Matthew 6:1] – “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.”

    I think that summarizes what Jesus Christ would think of the figureheads in the religious right and the false prophecy they spew on a consistent basis.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    Apparently, the concept of consent flies right over your head. A same-sex couple can do that, whereas in the case of rape, such a thing has not been given.

  • Kevin Qin

    No, the key difference between rape and homosexuality is that there is consent needed in sex in order to have it without having it called rape, homosexuality simply means you have the right to like someone of the same sex. Please try to recognize my argument before you try arguing against it. I never said all things animals do that’s natural are things we should also do. I just looked at one specific case (homosexuality), YOU are trying to generalize my statement so as to strike my moral/lifestyle standards. Besides, a chimp raping a frog? I find that very hard to believe given the size difference.

  • Kevin Qin

    But sharing the message isn’t all christians in america do now is it? They try to ban gay rights for all people regardless of faith, ban any science that disagrees with their faith from being in schools, essentially trying to take away the free will of others by making the government be ruled under their holy book alone. Christians like you seem to love doing these things under the guise of “I’m just warning people.” They aren’t warning others, they are trying to control others, not something jesus did in the bible.

  • Blair Dame

    This is an excellent article. We must also keep in mind that Jesus never went around forcing his views on others. He also didn’t get involved in politics because his kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. Likewise, as followers we should not seek to build or maintain a Godly kingdom/government on Earth, period. If you do, you make this world your home. Those of us who know God, know this is not our home.

  • SOLDIEROFYHVH

    Or the people who get thirty minutes into a movie only to find its full of homosexual subjects. The issue I have is that I’m not homosexual, so I don’t don’t want to see it.

  • SOLDIEROFYHVH

    This was a fabulous article and the comment section, as usual, is taking it to another place. There are LGBTQ folks, and other pro-pagans/anti Christians along with Neo Christian types, who have come here to troll on traditional Christian people and beliefs;typical. It’s a shame you can’t go to a Christian spot and just be and enjoy Christian without Babylonians and so-Called Christians crashing the party!

    By the way…you can’t differentiate a Neo Christian from a Pagan/Babylonian and that’s what makes them Neo Christian!

  • doninkansas

    yes, it is harassment. if you are forcing yourself and your beliefs on others, you are harassing them. how would you feel if a Muslim person were doing the same to you? or a militant atheist were constantly telling you how stupid it is for you to believe in your god? would that be ok with you?