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J. Krishnamurti – Sorrow is part of our self-centred activity – Video

J. Krishnamurti – Sorrow is part of our self-centred activity – Transcript

Krishnamurti: May we continuewith what we were talking about last Sunday.I think one must emphasise- you can’t hear? Right.They can’t hear you sir.We were talking about a holistic lifea way of living that is not fragmentedthat is not broken up as our lives arebut to find out for ourselvesa way of living that is holisticthat is wholenot fragmented not broken upnot splintered.And we went into that question fairly deeply.We saw what were the causes of this fragmentation of the human brainand the human livesand also we talked aboutvarious factors in our social moral and religious livesthat we have broken it up as Hindus MuslimsChristians Buddhists and so on.Religions have been greatly responsiblefor this catastrophe of human existence.And we talked also about time.Time being not only the pastall the memories the accumulated experienceand so onmodified by the present and continue into the future.That is our life.And we have existed on this earthaccording to the biologists and the archaeologists and so onfor over three and a half million years.And during that long interval of so-called evolutionwe have accumulatedan enormous amount of memory.And we also talked about the limitation of memoryand therefore limitation of thought.And that limitation of thought has broken up the worldgeographically nationally religiouslyas the Hindu the Muslims the Christians and so on.As we said the other daythis is not a lecture.Lecture indicatesto inform and to instruct.We are not doing that.You are not listeningif I may most respectfully point outto a series of ideas conclusions.But rather we are- you can’t hear?They can’t hear.Push it more this way?Is this all right?Can you hear now please?Yes?It is better but not good.Shall I speak louder?Alright.As we were saying this is not a lecture.We are both togetheryou and the speaker are taking a journeyas two friendstalking over their variousnot only family problemsbut the world problems and so on.So this is as much your responsibility to listen carefullyas that of the speaker to say things clearlyso that we both of us understand what we are talking about.And we are going to talk over many thingsnot only this evening and tomorrow evening.We are going to talk over together order and disorderpleasurelovesorrowand if we have time death.These are all rather complicated questionswhich we all have to face in our daily lifewhether you are rich or pooror a series of government officialswe have got to face this problem of existencein which our lives are in a state of disorderwhich is fairly obvious.Our lives our daily lives are in disorder.Which means contradiction:saying one thing doing anotherbelieving somethingand actually moving in a totally different directionfrom what we believe.And this contradiction creates disorder.I wonder if one is at all aware of this problem.Apparently there is going to be more and more disorder in the worldon account of not only bad governmentseconomic conditionssocial disorderand always the threat of war- which is becoming more and more imminentmore and more pressing.And all the governments are buying armamentsall over the world.Even the tiniest nations are buying arms.So there is as you observe throughout the worlda great disorder.And our lives also our daily lives are in disorderand we are always pursuing ordernot only governments law and so on.We want order because without orderhuman beings will inevitably destroy themselves.One hopes that we are sharing the questions togetherthat you are also thinking about this question together.That is thinking togetherobserving together listening togetherhaving a dialogue in which you are participating.So it is not a matter of gathering some few ideas and conclusionsbut togetherfind out why we live in disorderand can there be total order in our livesand therefore total order in society.Society- have you finished talking?Society is brought about by usis put together by us.Our greed our ambitions our envythis individual concept of freedomwhich we shall go into presentlythis has brought about a great deal of disorderthis sense of individuality.Please listen together let us listen to what is being saidactually listennot interpret or resist or defendbecause we are not attacking anything.We are merely observing what is going on in the worldtogether.So in our livesas we live it now after all these million yearswe still are in disorder.And man has always sought orderbecause without orderone cannot possibly function freely holistically.Right?So to find out what is ordernot a blueprintnot something you put it into a frame and follow itorder is something that is active livingnot conforming to a patterneither the pattern being idealistichistorical dialectical conclusionsor religious sanctions.All religions throughout the world have laid down certain lawcertain sanctions commandmentsbut human beings have not followed them at all.So we can put aside all those ideological conclusionsand also put aside your religious beliefswhich have nothing to do with daily existence.You may conform tofollow certain laws laid down by religionsbut that brings about also great bigotryand so on.So what is order and is it possible to find outwhat is order when our brainsare confused disorderly?Right?So we must first find out what is disorder not orderbecause when there is no disorder naturally there will be order.So we must enquire together- together please -what is disorder why we live in disorder.One of the causes of this disorderperhaps the major causeis conflictwhich we talked about in the last three talkswhich we won’t go into much more deeply this evening.Where there is conflict there must be disordernot only between man and womanbut between nationsbetween religious beliefs faithsconformity.There must be disorder.And one of the major causes of disorder is this conceptthis illusion that we are all individuals.As we said in the previous talksyou must question doubtdoubt what the speaker is sayingquestion what he is sayingnot accept anything from anybody but questioninvestigate not resist.If we merely resist what is being saidwhich may be true or falsethen our conversation comes to an end.If two people are talking over togethertheir problemsif one is resistingthen conversation ends.But if both of them not persuading each othernot informing each othernot trying to influence the otherbut together amicably – because they are friends -go into this questionwhether we are living in this illusionthat we are all separate individuals.The communist theoryas most of you perhaps know it alreadyis that we arethe result of series of environment.So change the environment then human beings change.Which is absurd altogether because they have shown it.The Russian totalitarianismhas pointed out very clearlythe dominance of the few making them believecontrol their thinking and so on so onhas not brought about the end of individuality as they hoped- on the contrary.So we are going together to find outbecause as we saidthat is one of the major causes of disorder in our lives.each one thinking he is freeeach one thinking his own fulfilmenthis own desires his own ambitionhis own private pleasures.We are going to find out together if that is a factor a long established respectable illusion.May we go into this together?Togethernot accepting nor denying.It is foolish to say I agree with you or disagree with youbecause you don’t agree or disagree with the sunrise and the sunset.It is a fact.You never say I agree with you sun rises in the east.So perhaps you could put asidethe sense of agreement and disagreementbut togethercarefully without any bias or resistanceenquirewhether there is actually individualityor there is something entirely different.Alright?Pull up your socksand let’s talk over together.Our consciousnesshas been the result of a million years or more.Our consciousness containsall the animalisticprimitive essencebecause we have come from the animal from nature.So deep down in our consciousnessone will find that there is still deeplythe responses and the fearsand the desire for security of the animals.That is part of our consciousness.Right?And also our consciousnesscontains all the innumerable beliefsfaiths reactions and actions.Our consciousness isfear pleasure various memoriessorrow and searching for somethingto possess complete security.That is all what we are.You may think part of you is divine.That is also part of your thinking.So all that consciousness we think is each oneit belongs to each one of us.Religions have maintained that you are separate soulsin Christianity and Hinduismand various other forms of religious activity.Now we are questioning the whole of that.Do you not share the sorrow of the rest of the human beings?All human beings throughout the worldhave various forms of fearsvarious forms of pleasure.They suffer as you sufferthey want they praythey do all kinds of absurd ceremonies as you doseeking stimulation through ceremonies sensationas you do.So we sharethe consciousness of all humanity.So you are the entire humanity.First see it logically.Logically every human being on this earthwhatever religion belief and so onthey sufferevery human being on this earth suffersdeeply or superficiallyevading suffering and so on- we will go into that presently.And this consciousness which we have considered minepersonal consciousness is not a factbecause as we pointed outevery human being living on this marvellous beautiful earth- which we are carefully destroying -we all are onebecause we all go through the same problemssame pain anxiety lonelinessdepression tears laughtercontradiction conflict between man and womanhusband and wife.Even in Russia this goes on.So are you individualsin your consciousness?Because that is what you are – your consciousness.Whatever you think whatever you imaginewhatever your tendenciesaptitudes talent giftsfacultyis shared by all other human beings similar to you.This is a logical fact.And logic has a certain place.One must think clearly logically reasonably sanelybut it is based on thought.However logical one may bethought being limitedas we have gone into it several times- which we won’t go into this evening -that thought becomes reasonable but it is limited.So one must go beyond thoughtbeyond the necessityof the limitation of reasonit is logical.So you are the entire humanity.You understand?You are not an individual.You either listen to that statementthat is you are the entire humanityyou are humanitynot an Indian and all the rubbish of divisionand when you listen to a statement of that kindthat you are the entire humanitydo you make an abstraction of it?That is make or bring about an idea of the fact.You understand?The fact is one thingand the idea about the fact is another.Clear?Is this clear?The fact.Which is that we have thought that we are individualsour religions our daily lifeour conditioning has made us believe that we are individuals.Somebody like the speaker comes along and sayslook carefully is that so?First we resist it we say what you are talking about?First we push it aside.But if you carefully listenand as we two friends are listening to each otherthen you share this statement that you are entire humanity.How do you hear that statement the sound of it?Do you make out of that statement an ideaaway from the fact and pursue the idea?I don’t know if you are following all this.Somebody please tell me if you are following all this.You understand?The word is not the thingwhich we went into.The microphone the word ‘microphone’ is not the actual thingin front of the speaker. Right?Because you are your consciousness with all its reactions and actionsand that consciousness is shared by all humanitybecause every human beinggoes through desperation lonelinesssorrow pain as you doso you are the entire humanity.Now how do you listen to that statement?Do you reject itor do you examine it?Do you investigate that question that statementor merely say what nonsense.What are you doing?Not tomorrow now.What is your reaction to it?Because this is a very serious statementthat you are entire humanity.Either you listen to the depth of itthe sound of it the beauty of itthe immensity of itwith its tremendous responsibilityor you treat it superficially verballyand say yes I understand it intellectually.But intellectual comprehension has very little meaning.It must be in one’s blood one’s gutsand out of that comesa different quality of a brain that is holisticnot fragmentary.It is the fragment that creates disorder.We as individuals have fragmented the human consciousnessand therefore we live in disorder.I wonder if you understand all this.Sir when you realise that you are the entire humanitythat is what love is.You will not kill anotheryou will not harm another.You move away from all aggression violenceand the brutality of religions.So our consciousness is shared is one with all humanity.You don’t see the beauty of it the immensity of it.You will go back to your old patternthinking you are all individualsfighting striving competitiveeach wanting to fulfil his own beastly little self.Right? Yes sir.So it means nothing to youbecause you are going back to your old way of life.So it is much better not to listen to all this.If you listen to truth and you don’t act on itit acts as poison.You understand this?That is why our lives are so shoddy and superficial.And also we must talk over togetherwhy man has not only lived with disorderfor thousands and thousands of yearsbut also why man is perpetually seeking pleasure.Pleasure in possessionpleasure in achievementpleasure in powerpleasure having a status a symbolnot only sexual pleasureand that pleasure is maintained by constantly thinking about seximagining picturing making imageswhich is thought gives pleasure.Sensation is turned into pleasure.I wonder if you are following all this.So we must understand what is pleasure.Why we seek pleasure.We are not saying it is right or wrong.We are not condemning pleasureas we are not condemning desire.Desire is part of pleasure.The fulfilment of desireis the nature of pleasure.So we ought to talk over together not only the nature of pleasurebut also what is desire.Desire may be the cause of disordereach one wanting to fulfilachieve his own particular desire.You understand all this?Are we taking a journey togetheror the speaker is going on talking to himselfor walking by himself?This is supposed to be a gathering.A gathering means the gathering of peoplewho are concerned seriously with serious mattersnot with entertainmentnot with intellectual gainbut we are concerned with our livesour daily monotonous boring livestrivial lives shoddy lives.So please together we are going to investigateif desire is one of the major causes of disorder.And desire in its fulfilmentin its achievement in any directiongives pleasure gratifying.So we ought to together investigate explorewhat is desire.Not condemn itnot escape from itnot try to suppress itas most religions have said suppress desirewhich is absurd.So let us look at it.What is desire?When you put that question to yourselfwhat is desireprobably most of us have not thought about it at all.We have accepted it as the way of lifeas the natural instinct of man or womanand we say why bother about it?Except those people who have so called renounced the worldwhich they never haveand those who enter into monasteriesorganised monasteries and so onthere they try to sublimate their desirein the worship of a symbol or a person and so on.So please bear in mind we are not condemning it.We are trying to find out together what is desirewhy man has been for a million yearsnot only physically biologicallybut also psychologically caught in the trap of desirein the network of desire.Right?Will you investigate with the speakeror you just listen to the speakerwhile he investigates or explores or explains?You know how easy it is to be caught in explanationsin descriptionsand we are satisfied with commentaries descriptionsand explanations.But we are not doing that here.We have to explain we have to describewe have to point out put it in the framework of wordsbut desire is one of the most complex things to understandnot intellectually but profoundly.So we are going to find out togetherwhat is desire.Don’t look to me.I will explain I will go into it but you have to go into it too.Not just say yes I agree or disagreethat is sillybut to find out the nature of desirethe constructionhow desire is put togetherwhat is the origin of desirethe beginning of desire.Every animal on this earth has a desire.Every human being is caught in this network of desiresand feels unhappy when his desires are not fulfilled.And when those desires are not fulfilledwhether those desires be ideologicalreligious or platonicor merely physical- what is the origin the beginning of desire?The speaker will describenot analyse.There is a difference between analysis and perception.Analysis implies the analyser and the thing to be analysed.Right?The analyser and the thing he is going to analyse.Which means the analyser is different from the analysed.Are they different?Suppose I am the analyser and I am enviousand I begin to analyse why I am enviousas though I am different from envy.But envy is meenvy is not separate from me.Greed competition comparisonall that is me.So we are not analysingbut we are lookinghearingand the process of learning.Learning is not merely accumulating memorythat is necessarybut learning is something entirely differentit is not an accumulative process.You are moving never recording fresh- I won’t go into that nowthat takes us in a different direction altogether.So together we are observing what is desirewhat is the origin of desirewhy human beings are caught in it endlessly.If you have a little money you want more money.If you have a little power you want more power.Right?And power in any formwhether you have power over your wife or your childrenpolitically religiously is an abominable thing.It is evilbecause that has nothing to do with truth.We will go into that.So what is the origin of desire?We live by sensation.If there was no sensationboth biologically and psychologicallywe will be dead human beings.Right?We live by sensation.That crow callingthat is acting on the eardrum nervesand translating the noise as the cry of a crow.That is a sensation.And sensation is brought about by hearing or seeing then contact.Right?Must I explain all these silly things?You see a nice garden beautifully keptthe green is rich perfect there are no weeds in itthat lawn has been kept going for 400 years.It is a lovely thing to watch to see.Then the seeingthen if you are sensitive you go and touch the grass.That contact -seeing contact then sensation.Right? Are you following this?Seeing a lovely gardena nice car a nice treeor a beautiful man or woman- seeing contact then sensation.We live by sensation.It is necessary.If you are not sensitiveif you are dull you are half livingas most of us are.So sensation – then what takes place?Take a very simple example:you see a nice sari or a shirt in the shop.You see it you go inside touch itand then the sensation of touching ityou say by Jove what a lovely material that is.Then what takes place?You understand?There is seeing contact sensation.Then what takes place after that?Are you waiting for me to tell you?You see sirs please do listen to this.If you see this for yourself not being told by anotherthen you become the teacher and the disciple.Oh understand all this you stupid people.But if you repeat repeat repeat what somebody has saidincluding that of the speakerthen you remain mediocrethoughtless repetitive.So let’s go into it.There is seeing contact sensation.See that nice carone of the latest cars in Europe – not here.There are no beautiful cars in India except those imported from abroad.You see a beautiful car.You touch the polishthe shape of it the texture of it.Then out of that there is sensation.Then thought comes and sayshow nice it would be if I got that.How nice it would be if I got into it drove off.So what has happened?Thought has given shape to sensation.Right? You are following this?Thought has given to sensationthe image of you sitting in that car driving off.At that moment when thought creates the image of you sitting in the carat that second desire is born.Alright?Have you understood this?Desire is born when thought gives shape to sensationgives an image to sensation.Now the question issensation is the way of existenceit is part of existenceto be sensitive.And we have learned to suppress or to conqueror to live with desire with all its problems.Now if one understands this not intellectually but actuallythat thought gives shape through imageat that second desire the origin of desire is there.Then the question arisesis it possible to see the car which is sensationtouch it but not let thought create the image- so keep a gap. You understand?Do you understand this?You see one must find out also in this questionwhat is discipline?This country is the most undisciplined country in the worldpart of the world.You spit all over the placeyou are untidy.Discipline. What is discipline?Because it is related to desire.So let’s talk about disciplineand we will come back to desire afterwards.The word desire comes from the word disciple- sorry discipline comes from the word ‘disciple’the origin the etymological meaning of that wordis ‘one who is learning’.A disciple who is learning from his master.Learning not conformingnot controllingnot suppressing followingbecoming obedient on the contrary- learning from observation.That is you are learning what is desire.Learning about it which is not memorising about it.So most of us are trainedespecially if you are in the army or in all that businesstrained to discipline according to a pattern- copy follow obey.Look what you are all doing.And that is called discipline.Hoping that discipline will bring about order.But if one learns if one is learningwhich is the root meaning of that wordthen that very learning becomes its own order.You don’t have order imposed by law or anything else.So where thought gives shape to sensationby giving it an imageat that second desire is born.And to learn to find outwhether it is possibleto allow sensation to flowerand not let thought interfere with itto keep the division- I won’t use the word ‘division’ -to keep them apart.Will you do it?You can’t. You have never done all these things.Then you will find outthat desire has it is right placeand when you understand the nature of desirethere is no conflict about it.We also ought to talk over togetherwhat is love and sorrow and death.Shall we go on?Do you want the speaker to go on?Are you sure?I know of course you love to hear somebody talk.Sir please this is much too serious all this.It affects your daily life.This is not something you intellectually play with.It concerns your lifenot somebody else’s life.The way you liveafter all these million yearslook what our lives arehow empty shallowhow violent brutal inconsiderate thoughtless etc.- look at it.And all this has created such havoc in the world.You all want to have a high positionachieve somethingbecome something.And looking at all thisthere is great sorrow isn’t there?Isn’t every human being in the worldwhether highly placed or just an ignorant villagerhe goes through great sorrow.He may not recognise the nature and the beautyand the strength of sorrowbut he goes through pain like you do.And mankind has gone through sorrow for a million years.They haven’t solved the problem.They want to escape from itthey want it organised.And what is the relationship of sorrow to love and death?Can there be an end to sorrow?This has been one of the questions mankind has askedfor a million years.Is there an end to all the pain the anxietyto the grief of sorrow?Sorrow is not only your own particular sorrowthere is the sorrow of mankind.Historically speaking there have been 5000 years of war.Every year that means somebody killing somebody elsefor their tribefor their religionfor their nation for their communityfor their individual protection and so on so on.Have you ever realised what the wars have done?You are fighting the Muslimthe Pakistani and the Hindu.Have you ever gone into the questionof wars that have created havoc?How many millions have criedhow many millions have been woundedwithout arms without legs without eyeseven without face.You people don’t know anything about all this.So is there an end to sorrow and all the pain therein?And what is sorrow?Don’t you know sorrow?Don’t you?Are you ashamed to acknowledge it?When your son daughterand somebody whom you think you lovewhen they are taken away don’t you shed tears?Don’t you feel terribly lonely?You have lost a companion forever.We are not discussing about deathbut this immense thing that man goes throughand never having a solution an answer to that.Without ending sorrow there is no love.Sorrow is part of our self-interestis part of our egotistic self-centred activityself-interest.I cry for anotherfor my son brother mother- why?Because I have lost something that I am attached tolost something which gave me companionshipcomfort etc.And with that ending of that personI realise how utterly empty my life isor how lonely my life isand then I cry.And there are many many thousands of people ready to comfort meand I slip very easily into that networkinto the trap of comfort.There is the comfort of Godwhich is an image put together by thoughtor the comfort of some illusory concept ideabut it gives me comfort and that is all I care.But I never question the very urgethe desire for comfortwhether there is any comfort at all.One needs to have a comfortable bed- that is all righta nice comfortable chair.But the urge the desire for comfortwe never question if there is any comfort at allpsychologically inwardly.Or is it an illusion which has become our truth?You understand?An illusion can become our truth.I wonder if you understand all this.The illusion that there is God- that God has been created by thought by fear.If you had no fear there is no God.But god has been invented by man through fearthrough loneliness through despairwanting this everlasting comfort.So we never question if there is comfort at allwhich is deep abiding satisfaction.Because we all want to be satisfiednot only with the food that we eatsatisfied sexuallysatisfied by achieving some position of authorityand therefore having comfort in that position in that state.Don’t you know all this?So let’s ask if there is any comfort at allif there is anything that will be gratifying satisfyingfrom the moment we are born till we die.Don’t listen to me – find out.Give your energy your thoughtyour blood your heart to find out.And if there is no illusion is there any comfort?If there is no fear do you want comfort?Comfort is another form of pleasure.So sir this is a very complex problem of our lifewhy we are so shallow emptyfilled by other people’s knowledgeby bookswhy we are not independent free human beings to find out.Why we are slaves.This is not a rhetorical question.This is a question each one of us must ask.And in the very asking and the doubtingthere comes freedom.And without freedomthere is no sense of truth.So we will continue tomorrow afternoon the question of deathand perhaps go into this question of sorrowwhat is a religious lifewhat is religionand is there something that is totally sacred holynothing invented by thought.We will go into it tomorrow.Not that the speaker is inviting you to come tomorrow.He doesn’t care two pins if you come or don’t come.It is your life.\s

J. Krishnamurti – Sorrow is part of our self-centred activity – Notes

Please note that this video titled J. Krishnamurti – Sorrow is part of our self-centred activity is from J Krishnamurti’s Youtube channel. More information about J Krishnamurti is available on his website at www.jkrishnamurti.org. The transcriptions on this page are automated transcriptions. In case you find any errors please leave a comment below. If you would like to watch this video on the Youtube channel of Jiddu Krishnamurti then please search for J. Krishnamurti – Sorrow is part of our self-centred activity on Youtube