What If Christianity Looked More Like Jesus and Less Like Paul (Or Moses)?

What If Christianity Looked More Like Jesus and Less Like Paul (Or Moses)? August 14, 2018

My friend asked a question today: “Do you think there’s a new form of Christianity quietly forming?”

To which I responded “Yep.”

Here’s why that’s a good thing…

What I see happening is more Christians learning to embrace Jesus for His actual teachings from the Sermon on the Mount, which include loving God, loving others, showing mercy, forgiving quickly, sharing freely, and embracing those who are not like us.

This shift is also one that veers away from things like tribalism, legalism, division over doctrine, fear of others and a need to control people.

In other words: I believe we’re starting to see a movement that veers away from Paul and Moses and nearer to the heart of Christ.

This is a good thing. A very, very good thing.

It’s always bothered me that those who take the name “Christian” have almost never really been very “Christ-like” in their behavior or attitudes or lifestyle.

Instead, I’ve been disheartened to see “Christians” who look very little like Christ.

Dallas Willard used to call these “Vampire Christians” because, as he put it, they only wanted enough of Jesus’s blood to save them from hell, but had no intentions of actually following Jesus or putting His words into daily practice.

We need less “Vampire Christians” in our world today and more “Jesus-lovers.”

The good news is, this is a growing trend in America today. We see more young people abandoning the mainstream Christian church in favor of more authentic, simple, tangible expressions of Christlike community. Some meet in bars, or in homes, or in coffee shops, or even online. In my experience, these younger believers really don’t care what you believe as much as they care that you’re honest, you love others, and you’re trying to know God better by paying attention to what Jesus revealed to us about who the Father is and what the Father is like.

In our own house church community, this has been very liberating. We come together to meet with Jesus, not just have a meeting about Jesus. We focus on Jesus. We talk to Jesus. We listen to Jesus. We do our best to put the words of Jesus into practice. We help one another to follow Jesus. We encourage one another and support one another without trying to fix one another.

It’s glorious.

And I see that many others are starting to seek out this kind of community and to let go of all the religious baggage that others have tried to place between Jesus and those who want to know Him better.

Honestly, one huge component of this new spiritual renaissance of Jesus-following has been thanks to the internet. Now, like no other time in history, are people regularly exposed to new ways of thinking, alternative ways of seeing, and better ways of being connected to Christ, and to one another, without all the fear and control that usually accompanies religious movements.

People who just want Jesus are finding that it’s easier than ever to have that connection with Jesus apart from the top-down, hierarchical, denominational control systems that prevent us from asking questions, embracing mystery, and finding common ground with people who happen to think differently.

Personally, I’ve grown by connecting online with people like Brad Jersak, Brian Zahnd, Greg Boyd, Bruxy Cavey, David Bentley-Hart, Peter Enns, Derek Flood, Mathew Distefano, Richard Murray, Steve Kline, Chuck McKnight and others.

I’ve also really enjoyed hearing fresh new voices like Seth Price [CanISayThisAtChurch? Podcast], Brandon Andress [OutsideTheWalls Podcast], Jon Scott [Holy Heretics Podcast], Peter Rollo [Rival Nations], Peter Enns [TheBibleForNormalPeople Podcast] and many, many others who are giving a voice, and a platform, for these kinds of Jesus-lovers to share their ideas and help set people free from fear and control.

The movement is growing. People are throwing off the shackles of dead mainstream religion and running after life-giving relationships with Jesus, and they’re finding more people just like them who only want more of Jesus.

How beautiful is it to see people letting go of their fears? How glorious is it to see people accepting their identity in Christ? How liberating is it to see people from different backgrounds genuinely love and embrace one another as friends? How amazing is it to meet people who aren’t afraid to love, or to be loved?

Can you imagine loving people more than you love doctrine?

Can you imagine serving people more than condemning people?

Can you imagine admitting you might be wrong more than you insist on being right?

Can you imagine abandoning the false security of certainty for the sincere wonder and awe of the mystery of Christ?

This is a more Christlike Christianity.

The end result will be this: A world where more people are free to love others regardless of their race, creed, culture, denomination, religion, sexual orientation, political affiliation, or anything else.

Almost no one should be against such a thing, but those who are most against it are those who most proudly wear the name of “Christian,” and that’s not very Christ-like.

Is it?

**

Keith Giles’s best-selling new book Jesus Unbound: Liberating the Word of God from the Bible”, is available now on Amazon and features a Foreword by author Brian Zahnd.

JOIN ME IN EL PASO, TEXAS: August 18th for the “Jesus Unbound Book Release Party.” This is a FREE event. Learn more HERE>

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I also co-host the Heretic Happy Hour Podcast on iTunes and Podbean and I live in Orange, CA with my wife of 28 years and our two sons.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Matt Agajanian

    While I agree entirely, please help me out on something. To put this into practice, how do I read and comprehend put Paul’s words and books (Romans, Ephesians, etc.), points of view, etc into perspective since they’re littered and infused with Paul, not Jesus?

    Thank you.

  • Bruce_LD

    While Liberal Quakerism trends more Universalist these days, you should check out the history of the Friends. You’re basically saying everything that George Fox and the others were preaching in the 1660s down to that Churches were not needed. Anywhere that Friends met and worshiped was a church. There’s a reason our places of gathering for worship are called Meeting Houses.

    Also, Liberal-Universalist Quakerism certainly has room for your conception of Christianity. My Meeting contains beliefs from paganism to nontheism to Christianity. And, for the most part, we all share in each other’s wisdom on each of our journeys towards divine truth and love, however we each conceive of it.

    My personal boiled down description of the religion is “being still enough with others to discover self and divine love within oneself and then taking that love out into the world.”

  • jekylldoc

    This really speaks to me. Thanks for sharing the resources. Blessings on your endeavors.

  • John

    The article said we should not be afraid to ask questions, and this is a very necessary one that can frame how we can approach and benefit from Paul’s writings. Great question.

  • Matt Agajanian

    Thanks. That helps. But, let me ask. What of Paul’s own words, Paul’s own ideas that may not seem so Christlike, but Paul-ish am I to do with? Throw them out?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    What are the unChristlike bits of Paul?

  • John

    Much has been written about Paul recently, and opinions vary widely. You can even find some written on other Patheos blogs, but you would have to search a bit. IMO, progressives have a problem with Paul and for some reason have created a false conflict between the two. Jesus is love and Paul is a misogynist jerk, or some other unkind label. I would not represent their position well as I am not in agreement with it for more reasons than can be articulated here. This post seems to imply something negative about Paul in a way that pits him against Jesus, and such a claim deserves a better response than is in this post, otherwise this is just click-bait. I really suspect the issue is with how Christians have interpreted Paul and used his teachings to force a morality on others and justified their judgments and condemnations of others based on his writings. I see this as a problem of the misuse of Paul and a poor interpretation of his writings, rather than with Paul himself. But this post doesn’t go that route. Instead it seems to find the problem with Paul himself, and that would make (all of) his writings suspect too. Thus, your question – are there any of Paul’s writing that are good and Christ-like, and who gets to determine which ones are good and which ones are not?

  • swbarnes2

    So, more “sheep and goats, wheat and tares”, more “wailing and gnashing of teeth” and less “love is patient, love is kind”?

  • Matt Agajanian

    Thanks for the feedback, but I’m still confused. From your response, I agree, Paul is still a misogynistic, arrogant jerk here. But, to provide a more elaborate, detailed answer, could someone articulate a clear-cut, unambiguous answer, please? Thank you.

  • John

    Sorry, I may not have been very clear, but I do not believe that Paul is a misogynistic jerk, but quite the opposite. To see Paul in that way is to judge the past through our 21st century lens and shows a low understanding of his culture. I wish you luck on getting an answer to your questions. Most of the responses on Patheos are just rants and there are very, very few sincere discussions. You might look into the broader Progressive opinion of Paul for some help as their view is different than the historical, conservative or evangelical perspective. My only caution, if I may propose it, is to be discerning about whether the issues are with Paul’s teachings themselves or with a misuse and misapplication of his teachings by the church. That is an important difference to distinguish.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    In that I’ve read the entire bible, I know that Jesus supported this god’s commandments and said they all have to be followed until earth and heaven pass away, so getting rid of Moses doesn’t sound viable. We also have Paul claiming to have been getting his words right from this god, so is he a liar? If so, why believe any of the book.
    There is also the problem that Jesus isn’t the happy friendly one that many Christians have invented for themselves. This character will murder anyone who doesn’t agree with it in Revelation. Is that to be considered false too? If so, what do you have left and why believe any of it? You can be a humane human being without having to cherry pick a collection of books full of nonsense.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Oh my. Good to see that at least one Christian, Chicks, has nothing but childish name calling. It seems that pointing out what the bible actually says isn’t appreciated and engenders rage that I would dare to do so. Chicks, you might want to read your bible and find out what you claim to believe in. http://www.biblegateway.com is a great place to read the bible online. It has many different versions.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    if you google Jesus vs Paul, you’ll see how some Christians compare the two and their contradictions. One of the biggest differences is that Paul insists that he is everyone’s father, and Jesus says quite clearly that there is only one father. Paul also claims he knows when the “end times” will be and JC said that no one will know. Indeed, some people who self-describe as Christians consider Paul an anti-christ (google “paul anti-christ”)

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I would normally expect someone to actually tell me what their views are, rather than let me pick a selection of views from random websites.
    Of the two examples you give:
    I am a father, I had a father and I suspect you have or had one too, as a matter of necessary biological fact. This no more contradicts Jesus saying there is only one “Father” than Paul contradicts Jesus by referring to himself as the figurative “father” of congregations he founded. I am reasonably confident Paul didn’t think he was God. Taking this as Paul contradicting Jesus is a bit silly, to be honest.
    I don’t know where Paul claims to know when the “end times” will be, other than saying with Jesus that they are “at hand”, so I am not sure where you are going with this.
    Paul was writing to Christians within a few decades of Christ’s death while the apostles yet lived, and substantially prior to when the gospels were written, and his words were incorporated into the canon with the gospels as being a true reflection of Jesus’s message. It’s very difficult to see how if he was contradicting Jesus’s teaching and that of the apostles who had been taught by Jesus directly this could be so. There do seem to indeed be substantial disputes between the apostles and Paul, but over what to do about non-Jewish believers, which is not really covered in the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the gospels, and can’t have been made terribly clear by Jesus himself or the dispute would not have arisen. If Paul was wrong on this point, all Christians should also convert to Messainic Judaism as well.

  • sorry. nope. there are two “untils” in that passage you are quoting, not one “until”. Jesus said the Law would not pass away until “all had been accomplished” and this was directly after saying that his entire mission was to “fulfill the law and the prophets”, so did Jesus accomplish what he came to do? Yes!! And so now that all is accomplished/fulfilled, the OT Law and Prophets have faded away, just as Jesus said.

  • jekylldoc

    Crossan and Borg did a good job addressing who Paul was and how his work fit into the larger picture.

    Some recent Pauline scholarship has revised a number of “consensus” points about him, based on both better understanding of his cultural context and shedding some Reformation lenses. I am especially intrigued by Pamela Eisenbaum’s thesis, explained in “Paul Was Not a Christian” that he saw a “two-track” salvation process, with Torah providing the saving pathway for Jews and Jesus providing the saving pathway for the Gentiles. I am not entirely convinced, especially on some of the subpoints, but it helps understand why he would say such positive things and such negative things, both, about the Law.

  • madalyn baumstark

    in Scotland last year I learned a new phrase that seems to apply : non-denominational Christian! At St Angus church anyone who follows Christ/Jesus is welcome. Seem that could work here, too. I have no idea how they EVER survive without hierarchy, bishops, councils…

  • Steele J

    Amen brother! Orthodox Christianity is becoming obsolete. So what if I’m shacked up with 8 women and a couple of them get pregnant and choose to get abortions a couple times a year. We all love Jesus and that’s all that matters. Furthermore, we don’t need a church authority to hold us accountable, so judgmental. We are our own authority. I never read the Old Testament any more, too depressing. The only thing that matters is certain passages in the Gospels, primarily the claim that Jesus was resurrected!

  • John

    I know the names Borg and Crossan, but never read anything of theirs. I tend to read Paul as the one who had to deal with the reality of following Jesus. He gives us a picture of what Jesus’ followers looked like, struggled with and misunderstood. Yes, Jesus is love and truth and inspiring and all the good stuff (we won’t mention his controversial passages), but the narrative of the new testament shows that Christians themselves are a mess. Paul’s letters seem to contain much conflict and misunderstandings about Jesus, and read like they are an attempt to explain how to live as a follower of Jesus. So it baffles me when people don’t get Paul. Do people think that Jesus just makes us all nice, loving, grace-filled people like magic based on our new faith in him? Will we still experience conflict in church, be judgmental towards others, struggle with sin, say mean things at times, drink too much at other times, gossip, etc.? If we see Paul helping the followers of Jesus who believe and accept his message of love and grace, then we might better understand his particular message. Perhaps people just don’t like or agree with Paul’s specific advice on what the Christian walk should be, or they don’t know how to understand context and the setting of the first century Roman world.

  • jekylldoc

    The key thing to get about Paul is that he understood the appearance to him on the Damascus road as an appearance of the risen Christ. This is not difficult as he states it himself. But since the beginning of the resurrection of the saints was the beginning of the Kingdom, he believed that Jesus’ resurrection was the herald of the end times. Thus his determination and optimism were closely bound up with his vision of the coming apocalypse. When he writes to his churches, he is not laying down centuries of doctrine but trying to explain a dramatic new development in God’s unfolding destiny for humanity.

    Yes, there is lots of material addressing the foibles of those humans who made up the church. What Progressives tend to dislike, I think, is the way his advice, guidance and rulings got turned into doctrine for all time. And of course this was done by a patriarchal church hierarchy that at times has been downright misogynistic. So sure, some people overlook his soaring insight and inspiration because he has become a grinding stone to flatten people. I think you and I agree in seeing that as a misrepresentation of his intent and his (limited) understanding. One can be sure, for example, that he never forsaw a world with women getting Ph.D.’s, flying in space, and using birth control.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    No one cares how “reasonably confident” you are. There is nothing in the bible that indicates that your assumption is true. You need to ignore what is said to make up something that will allow you to believe that there are no conflicts. Yep, “at hand”, which is not somethign that means in the far future by 2000 plus years. Do you really want to make a fool of yoursel insisting that “at hand” must mean 2000+ years to excuse the failure of your god? Again, all you have are stories. We do not know if Paul met the apostles are not. He certainly claims he does. and the bible was put together by politics, not by some knowledge of the truth. Your ignorance, or attempted lies about how the bible was put together doesn’t work in the face of the facts. And there was a lot by JC on what to do about nonjewish believers. He said that his message was not for them. Are you this ignorant of your bible or do you attempt to try to mislead others about what your bible actually says? Look at Matthew 10″These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

  • Jane Ravenswood

    the passage is this: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    where is that second “until” Keith? It seems you are wrong. Again, we have this version that says that JC wasn’t here to abolish the law but to fulfil: to put into effect it. Many Christians try to claim that fulfil means “bring to an end” which it can mean, but in this context, it makes no sense to say ” I have not come to abolish but put an end to”. Jesus did no complete what he intended, and he certainly didn’t complete the prophecies since Christians claim that the ones that say this messiah will gain the respect of all world rulers. That never happened, and Christians had to invent a “second coming” to excuse the failure of this supposed messiah. You might want to read your bible, it doesn’t say what you falsely claim. This seems to be a problem with most Christians, a terribly ignorance of what the claim to believe in. You might want to try biblegateway.com.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Oh. I thought we were having a good faith discussion about the differences between Jesus’s and Paul’s theology and teaching as disclosed in the Bible. Turns out you are just an atheist trying to make schoolboy debating points attacking Christianity. If I had known you were completely uninterested in the topic and just wanted an argument about whether the Bible was true or not or the existence of God I wouldn’t have bothered replying; thank you for wasting my time.

  • Jane: Where is the second “until”? Right there in verse 18: “For truly I tell you, UNTIL heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law UNTIL all is accomplished.”

    See it now?

  • Rudy Schellekens

    “In our own house church community, this has been very liberating. We come together to meet with Jesus, not just have a meeting about Jesus. We focus on Jesus. We talk to Jesus. We listen to Jesus. We do our best to put the words of Jesus into practice. We help one another to follow Jesus. We encourage one another and support one another without trying to fix one another.”

    And just think: Jesus came to focus us on God, rather than Him…

  • RevCharlotte

    I am an Episcopal priest, and the type of Christianity you describe is what is practiced and preached in my church in rural Oregon. It is also what is being sought and promoted by the leadership of our larger church – the Right Rev. Bishop Michael Curry (who preached at the royal wedding in England this summer) has been talking and preaching and teaching about the Jesus Movement for the past two years.

    I would be interested to know, however, why you only mentioned men in all of the accolades you gave in your article about examples of folks who pattern themselves on Jesus…

  • Elyshuah Ellison

    Christ came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. The prophets have not been fulfilled in entirety . A long ways from it. The likewise declare the Law will be in existence during the millennial reign of Christ . Paul is clear in Romans and Colossians as to what aspect and category of the is now obsolete: the “law of Righteousness ” (Rom 9:31). Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness, not everything else:

    Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

  • Nik

    Very astute response!

  • Sue Harris

    Every single person you referenced is male. Just saying.

  • Ilan

    I could have sworn you were being sarcastic. But I think you’re being serious. If so, this is really sad. Just eat drink, for tomorrow we die.

  • Theodore A. Jones

    “For it is not those who hear the law who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13

  • Chris Schene

    Would you please reference scriptures to support what you write

  • Steele J

    Ha! Is this not what the author is saying?

  • Chris Schene

    Hmmm – “We all love Jesus and that’s all that matters”.

    Jesus said the evidence of your love that you obey him. By your own words, you don’t obey Him.

  • Steele J

    I disagree. Jesus never taught on polygamy or abortion. One of his commandments is to love your neighbor as yourself. Two of my eight girlfriends happened to also be my neighbor; I’m going above and beyond here!

  • You should Google the term “Prosopopeia”, or read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopopoeia

    Then, I’d recommend watching an excellent YouTube video by Michael Hardin where he demonstrates how Paul used this device in Romans to argue with an imaginary opponent by first quoting what that person might say [which I believe is what we have in this verse above], and then responding to and debunking that statement immediately afterwards. Like this:

    “14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.” [Romans 2:14-16]

    And if you continue reading I think you’ll see that Paul contradicts this pseudo-argument in Romans 2:13 by pointing out that even those who have not heard the law still keep it because it is written on their hearts.

  • Theodore A. Jones

    You should not go beyond what is written. That law Paul references in Rom. 2:13 is the word that was added into law in regard to sin of murdering Jesus which occurred after his ascension. Heb. 7:12. Your problem Giles is assuming that the word law in Paul’s writings is only referencing OT law.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Funny how I have and how you appear to be one more Christian who depends on willful ignorance to remain faithful. Did you google Jesus vs Paul? Of course, not. You’ll see Christians citing all of the verses you’d like. One I find most interesting is that Jesus said to call no one father except god, and Paul wants everyone to call him father. IF you won’t believe fellow Christians, who would you believe? Or will you claim that they aren’t TrueChristians at all, since they don’t agree with you?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Yep, I thought I was having a good faith discussion and funny how I wasn’t. You have decided to make false claims, and trying your best to dismiss my points. Yep, Iain, you do a great job of showing just how much a Christian will lie when they don’t like how a discussion is going, including bearing false witness against another. In that I’m not uninterested in the topic at all, see my posts, you intentionally have tried to lie about me, and have shown that you don’t respect your god any more than I do. You might want to read Romans 3 to see what Paul says about what your god thinks of people who think lying for this god is a good idea.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    well, I feel rather silly now. Yep, that second until is right there and I read over that passage about 8 times. You were right, I was wrong. Oh well. So, what is your answer to the fact that JC didn’t do what the messiah is prophecied to do? The second coming was invented by Christians since JC didn’t come back within anyone’s lifetimes back then as promised. What do you do with a failed messiah? You invent other myths. Heaven and earth is still here and it makes no sense to translate fulfill as abolish when that term is already used.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    and sicne there is no evidence of anyone not hearing this god’s nonsense and still believing it, the claim that everyone has this law on their hearts is nothing more than a lie told by Christians who want to claim everyone “really” agrees with them. It’s the need to have every decent person on their “team”, and lying that no one else can be a good and humane person. Nothing more than greed and selfishness.

  • How was Jesus a failed Messiah? I would say he did everything that the Messiah was meant to do. What’s left undone?

  • Chris Schene

    You are willfully ignorant and you can’t even support your claim by citing scripture.

    An example: I am the father of my children but God is also their (Heavenly) Father.

    You believe what suits you and not for the purpose of obey Jesus and His words—even things Paul wrote are of equal weight.

  • Chris Schene

    Oh, I see: You are part of the cadre that takes the view that only “Jesus specific NT words” are the only scripture that matter.

    Well, that let’s you out of most of the moral code described in the Bible.

    Why bother pretending to be Christian?

  • Theodore A. Jones

    “-children born not of natural descent, nor of a husband’s will, but born of God.” Jn. 1:13 NIV

  • Jane Ravenswood

    I’ll let Jewish folks explain why they don’t accept your messiah and why JC didn’t fulfill what is expected for a messiah: http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/messiah-the-criteria/ it seems that Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28 is a clincher. Now, I find that all propehcies are nonsense, but if I’m going to anyone more right than anyone else, I’m going to go with the Jews who started this, rather than Christians who do such a poor job in their attempts to invent handfuls of what the prophecies mean, and which conflict with each other e.g. pre trib, post trib, etc.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    you are lazy, but I expect that since you need to be to keep your willful ignorance intact. http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html But let’s look at what JC said since I know you’ll not look at the link: Matthew 23 ” And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah.” This is JC saying this to the crowd around him and to the apostles.

    Funny how JC says that you are wrong when you say this “I am the father of my children but God is also their (Heavenly) Father.”

    and what Paul says “14 I am not writing this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”
    I know that most Christians don’t bother reading their bible. They really should when they claim that they believe what is in it. So, if JC and Paul’s words have equal weight, which is what this god wants since they directly contradict each other? And why does it seem that Paul has no idea what Jesus said? And it’s also extremely interesting reading if you google “paul anti-Christ”, it seems that not all Christians agree that Paul should be listened to at all.

  • Widuran

    God spoke through Paul and Moses. God is Jesus.

    Orthodox Christianity as summarized in the Nicene Creed is correct.

    Salvation is only through Christ under no other name are you saved.

  • Widuran

    Good post.

  • Widuran

    Oh you are being serious oh dear

  • Widuran

    It is what the author is saying. Are you being serious?

  • Evermyrtle

    Thou shall not kill! That little heart beating in the uterus, of a woman is a person,innocent of any wrong doing, not a puppy or a kitten! There are many arms, out there, who will welcome that baby that you are about to murder!!! Still, on the other hand, there is no way that I could
    ever kill a baby cat or dog!!! Of course, this is not my business, except a disciple of GOD, who teaches “Thou shall not kill” referring to fellow humans and imagine “Your mother hiring some to cut you into tiny portions and dragging you out of her body and dumping you into the garbage, denying you, your right to life, in the most cruel way, possible!! Thank you, so much Mummy, for allowing me to live, 88 years, so far!!

    Where did we get these many, many baby killers from? Why did GOD make people who could not keep their pants on until they got married and want their babies? It seems that Satan overcomes, in getting his deceitful, murdering ideas, across millions of times is this one horrible, acceptable to mankind only, life destroying way!! I am a firm believer that HE consider the killing of babies that He made, murder!

    Did any idea occur that abortion might be GOD’S plan to stave off starvation?: Insanity, HE never made an innocent baby to be murdered, that comes from Satan: Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren which are in the world!!

    What saddens me is that every person that has murdered a baby was allowed to live, what is fair about that, except ” we will be judged by our own thoughts and decisions!”

    I believe that JESUS CHRIST did support the ten commandments, one of which says”Thou shall not kill” I think meaning Thou shall not kill another living person! I would say that 99.9999 times that a baby is cut to pieces and dragged our of his/her mother was living when the butchering began!!

  • Evermyrtle

    We can give GOD credit for putting the Bible, “HIS WORD” together and in the hands of mankind! It is not necessary for us to understand all of the “ins and outs” of how this was possible, HE gave it to all who chose to follow HIM, in all future! Those who hate HIM have and will use it to destroy Christianity, if that could be possible!

    HIS people will be living, in the maybe, far future, in the new earth that HE give us when HE makes the “New Heaven and the New Earth!! Providing you do not believe this, it will not alter anything, GOD already knows about you and all other unbelievers!!! HE knows, everyone of HIS people, too, AS WELL AS THOSE WHO PRETEND TO BE HIS BUT DO NOT HAVE THE FAITH, WISDOM OR THE STRENGTH TO STAND STRONG FOR HIM!!!!

  • Steele J

    “He never made an innocent baby to be murdered.” Have you not read the Old Testament were God gives to command to kill all of their adversaries even the babies?

  • Steele J

    Satire mostly.

  • Evermyrtle

    Do you have some Bible verses, suggesting or ordering the killing of the babies, that you don’t want? Are these women killing their babies today because GOD is telling them, too or is it because they could not keep their clothes on and their feet on the floor?? I have heard, that if a female can keep her feet on the floor, that helps to keep her safe from having to kill her baby,

    I think the term that may be better, do not loose all sense of self control, plus the fact of knowing what causes pregnancy and that if you get pregnant that means that there is a real, live baby in there, with a heart, brain and everything else needed to live!!!

    One of the most important verses of the Bible, “Thou shall not kill” meaning do not kill a human person. An unborn baby is a person and will be become a man or a woman, if proper care is taken, all along the way, to adulthood!! If you snuff out his/her life before it can lift a finger to defend itself, it is impossible it to grow up to be the man or woman that GOD intended it to be!!!!

    Oh yes Mr. Steele I have read the Bible through several times, not just the parts that will seem to back up evil that I may want to commit, even the parts that list my shortcomings!

    I wonder, if it were possible to know which unborn baby would grow up to be a murderer, you would be saving another life by aborting that baby! Alas, there is no way to know this, more murderers to be, are being born now, than ever before!!!!!

    I have two children, two grandchildren and one perfect four year old great grandchild! I would give my life to protect any one of them!!

  • Evermyrtle

    Does not seem to me that he cares about any of the WORD OF GOD except verses that seem to support his ideas!

  • Steele J

    If you have read the Bible through many times why are you asking me “Do you have some Bible verses, suggesting or ordering the killing of babies…”
    Sure: 1 Samuel 15:3
    “ Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

  • You do not know the Bible. Later Jesus said to go to the whole world. Anyone who reads the Bible can explain your mistakes in detail. But why would they want to? Arguing just to argue is pointless. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

  • fractal

    Histrionics.

  • fractal

    Wonderful article!
    Too bad the people with control issues aren’t going to understand it…

  • fractal

    I notice you keep your comments “private” so that we cannot see what kind of skanky and fascist sites you frequent.
    COWARDLY.

  • fractal

    Paul the Fanatic was a complete Dikk.
    Enough said.

  • Brianna LaPoint

    People can rebrand christianity to suit the masses. I care not. but the more christianity ruins the masses, the more i feel justified in denouncing it. You do you, but dont expect me to say where do i sign up, because if anything, experience is a great teacher, and some of the life lessons i learned after being burned by one christian too many.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    putting things in caps doesn’t make them magically true, myrtle. And your bible says that your god intentionally doesn’t give it “all” to everyone, and intentionally makes some people just so it can damn them to eternal torture. You should actually read your bible, rather than trying to lie to me about it when I’ve read it. And it’s always nice to see yet one more Christian sure that those “other” Christians aren’t true Christians. You all insist that each other aren’t doing it “right”.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Yep, the bible does have that contradiction that first JC wants his message to only go to the Jews and then to the whole world. That does happen when the Jews don’t believe you and you need more members for your new sect. Gentiles make a great new audience to try to get external validation from.
    And since you haven’t explained my supposed mistakes, it seems that you haven’t read the bible nor do you know how it contradicts itself repeatedly. Nice attempt to claim that I’m arguing just to argue to avoid having to actually support your claims. It’s no surprise that the usual claims by a Christian on how much evidence they have has again resulted in nothing but excuses. Methinks that you make excuses since you have nothing. 😉 Now, TrueChristian, where are those miracles you can do per JC’s supposed great commission at the end of Mark? Why don’t I see the baptized and believing clearing out cancer wards and VA hospitals?

  • The destroyer

    I think Christ is the one we should imitate but God spoke through all the prophets

  • Steele J

    I’m not clear on what you mean by “We do our best to put the words of Jesus into practice.“ Paul wrote much of the New Testament, but you appear to be advocating for “veering away” from him and Moses. The synoptic Gospels are dated much later, roughly 70-125 A. D., if you include John. Paul’s writtings are dated 50 A.D. So, you believe the best way to extract the words of Jesus is from writings produced 40 years after Jesus’ death. Rather than 25 years after Jesus’ death. Furthermore, the Gospels were written by anonymous authors. But, you know this, I’ve read some of your other post. Jesus’ disciples, those who’s names have been assigned to the Gospels, were poor illiterate fishermen. Paul was educated in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew and you don’t trust his writings?

  • If there’s one thing that we could learn from the sexual abuse crisis in the catholic church, it is this: christianity isn’t healthy when its integrated with a large, centralized power structure. But stepping away from centralized authority could save the catholic church for future generations:

    If there was not one church, but a plurality of churches, there would be no more self-absorbed power players trying to climb into the pope’s seat, no more abusive priests in positions of power being able to move their kind from parish to parish.
    Sure, corruption can still exist, but the corrupting power of… Power… would be significantly reduced.

  • AntithiChrist

    Nice thought. More power to you, but I don’t see any particular branching off from Vampire Christianity (btw, loved that term), however healthy or authentic it may seem to the the new sect’s adherents, as anything all that new.

    The fact of creating new sects highlights the inherent divisiveness of faith-based approaches to living a good life. Ultimately the new sect follows the same old human religious group dynamics and you’re back to something akin to personality cults, and regressive political and social positions based on “revealed” teachings, however lovingly or casually stated.

    If drinking the imaginary blood of a long-ago-tortured-to-death-martyr isn’t such a big deal anymore, why not simply lose the vampire-ish blood-drinking urges altogether, become fully human, and quietly adhere to healthy humanist principles?

  • Chari McCauley

    Maybe the unbelievers were acting more humane than “the chosen of Israel”. Maybe the fact that the chosen became full of hubris (both Isaiah and Jeremiah make this clear) was the problem.

    Unhealthy believers need a doctor, not healthy unbelievers. (Matt 9:12, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31)