I’m with him on this

I’m with him on this December 4, 2014

The decision is a travesty and the cop who killed this man is getting away with murder.

Not to worry though. There was one indictment to come out of this case. The man who filmed the murder has been indicted.

When even Judge Andrew Napolitano, Charles Krauthammer, and Fr. Peter West are willing to come out and say this was a gross miscarriage of justice, the corruption is too obvious to ignore anymore.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • petey
    • Ken

      Apparently if a person resists arrests the police can kill you. That’s what the article seems to be implying and from what I’m hearing from some of the people that are defending this. How strange.

  • Jonk

    Essentially, man was killed for tax evasion.

    • chezami

      No. He was killed because he was murdered by a cop.

      • Jonk

        A cop who put him into a chokehold to arrest him for tax evasion.

        • Andy

          And the amount of taxes was how much and he deserved to die.

          • Jonk

            This case is a clear proof that all taxes contain the implicit threat of force, up to and including death. Every tax, and every tax increase, comes with the threat “Give us your money, or we can and will kill you.”

            This is a pro-life issue.

            • chezami

              All law contains the implicit threat of force. Welcome to grown up world.

              • Jonk

                And the question is not when we *get* to use that force, but when we *have* to use that force.

            • Andy

              No – the case shows the implicit issues with the militarization of police and our acceptance of the abuse of power. By the way how much did he die for, since you seem to accept this as appropriate use of force.

              • Jonk

                What special militarized gear or training does it take to strangle a man?

                • Andy

                  The implicit acceptance that police are now in the military and should be able to behave as they want because it is a “war zone” WHy else have armored vehicles, multi-round weapons and the like.

                  • Jonk

                    So, none.

                    The problem isn’t that some cops have “team-guy” tactical gear. The problem is that we have police in the wrong business. Rather than just going after people who have violated the persons and properties of others, we have them going after people who have violated no one else, as well.

                    • Andy

                      I agree with the comment about police in the wrong business (responding to both at once). The problem with the gear lies with how police are trained and how they seem to be selected/hired. There are many police officers, several attend out church, who eschew the tactical gear because of the image it presents – we are the military, instead of law enforcement. There are others who buy into the military gear because it gives them a sense of power – a sense of authority and with that comes the freedom to act as one pleases, because we are at war – you war on drugs (we lost), war on crime (going down, but still an issue), war on terrorism (who knows).

                    • Jonk

                      Granted, it was in a real war, but my experience with guys who were in to the “tacticool” gear was always just that it was just cool stuff, not that they got some added sense of power or anything. Maybe your fellow parishioners’ coworkers are different.

                  • Jonk

                    In the “get to/have to” rubric, we don’t get to use force against people for smoking, or for undercutting the convenience store cartel, but we have to use force when someone is harmed, say, when someone gets murdered by a gang of four bullies, regardless of the shiny pins on their chests.

                • Joseph

                  None when you can jump up while the guy’s back is turned and you have a bunch of buddies all around packing heat to make sure the guy you’re choking doesn’t dare attempt to fend you off. Cowards.

        • chezami

          Well then. He had it coming.

          • Jonk

            If you’re among the folks who think all taxation is just and sin taxes are for the “common good,” I suppose he did.

            • chezami

              I’m one of those people who think a cop murdered a guy and that this has nothing to do with taxation.

              • Jonk

                Except that’s the one and only law he was breaking, and the only reason for the confrontation to happen in the first place. If there’s no sin tax on cigarettes, there’s no black market, and no laws against entrepreneurs like Mr. Garner.

                But we don’t like to talk about the negative consequences of taxes around here, so we’ll continue pretending that Officer Chokey McChokehold was just out for blood, and nothing more.

                • chezami

                  Unless you want to argue for the abolition of all law, the reality is that cops are capable of excessive force on any bust and trying to claim that law is illegitimate so long as this can happen is one of those idiotic things only a libertarian would say.

                  • Jonk

                    We’d best be sure we’re using cops on busts that are actually important then, shouldn’t we?

                    • Joseph

                      Right, only let rabid cops with inferiority complexes do their killing when it’s something other than taxes… that’s the ticket. Dummy.

              • Na

                The injustice of the act was that it was so unnecessary and disproportionate. If the victim would have attacked the cop and tried to grab his gun like in Furgeson and the officer tried to take him down with a choke hold and in he died it would have been a lot more understandable.

                Don’t be a child of the age, there are already plenty of people who are fanning the flames instead be a peacemaker.

            • Joseph

              Are you retarded? Just asking… because what the f*ck does this have to do with taxes, dope. A cop killed an unarmed man by brutally choking him with the *wrong use* of a chokehold (he crushed his windpipe with his forearm). If you put a person in a chokehold like that, you’re trying to do damage. So, he was resisting… so he was causing a *disturbance*. The answer is to kill him? Stop with all the tax BS. Taxes didn’t lead to this, a wuss cop who wanted to show how tough he was by jumping on a guy’s back from behind and squeezing his neck with an improperly used chokehold is what killed him. That piglet isn’t worthy to swing around a McDonald’s mop bucket.

              • ivan_the_mad

                He’s an ideologue. As with conspiracy theorists, all facts either support the particular political dogmas, or are rationalized away so as not to dispel the particular political dogmas. As with conspiracy theories, everything is about the particular political dogmas. It’s an obsessive cast of mind.

                What’s truly shameful is using a murdered man merely as a means to propound the political dogmas.

              • Jonk

                Whoa, easy there, Ice T. Last I checked, “piglets” were people, too, and, as you of all people should know, you don’t hate the player, you’ve got to hate the game.

              • As an aside, Joseph, I agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but would you please consider not using the word “retarded” in this way? My oldest is genuinely mentally retarded, and I’m uncomfortable with the term being used as an insult.

                • Joseph

                  Sorry Beadgirl. I didn’t mean to offend you.

    • Marthe Lépine

      However, tax evasion through the use of foreign banks and/or oversea tax havens does not seem to be a problem for people with much more money…

      • Jonk

        That’s because they can buy the enforcers.

    • Joseph

      Ugh… please please please don’t give the Teabaggers a poster child here. If that man were guilty of some other petty crime in the same spot surrounded by the same cops, the same exact thing would have happened. It isn’t like the tiny big-for-his-britches Napoleon complex piglet who jumped up on put the man in a chokehold (it was not a ‘safe’ chokehold by the way, you can see that the man’s throat was pinned by the piglet’s forearm and not his elbow pit) that crushed his windpipe wasn’t thinking, ‘Gee, this mutha f*cka is selling loose smokes… that calls for a chokehold’. I watched the video and it nearly brought me to tears. I think that piglet crushed the man’s windpipe because even after he let him go the man was gasping and trying to tell the other pigs there that he couldn’t breathe. How wonderful that those porkers just stood around while he died, not even attempting CPR.
      Sorry, I don’t usually like the term ‘pig’, but I’m sick and tired of this sh*t. And it’s not a black/white thing. This is happening all over the nation.

  • Marthe Lépine

    It looks like your country is entering another chapter of the civil rights battle… These 2 recent deaths, plus some things I have read elsewhere about efforts to “purge” voters lists, done in a manner that seems to eliminate a larger number of people with darker skins or Latin languages, are raising some worries. Unfortunately, there is one serious difference between the present era and Dr Martin Luther King’s time: a larger proliferation of firearms…

  • Andrew

    Murder is too strong a word here. The police officer used excessive force, and the man died from a heart attack of an underlying condition. Should have been indited for manslaughter perhaps.

    • Andy

      According to the medical examiner without the cop and the chokehold Mr. Garnett would be alive – negligent manslaughter is a no-brainer – from Cornell Law
      Involuntary manslaughter is negligently causing the death of another person.

      • Ken

        That’s what was the first thing I thought. At the very least his grabbing him around the neck and bringing him down was at least reckless and would justify manslaughter. Also, the man was very large, but there were other officers there so it doesn’t seem like he needed to be so aggressive. If he was alone and had to arrest him and his arm ended up around his neck and they were wrestling that would seem to be another issue.

      • Dan13

        In NY, involuntary manslaughter requires a reckless state of mind. A criminal negligent state of mind would warrant a conviction for criminally negligent homicide.

        I think a 2nd degree murder charge was possible because even though the officer didn’t intend to kill the victim, I think his conduct fell under “depraved indifference to human life” recklessness (as opposed to run-of-the-mill recklessness), which is murder in NY.

        • Andy

          I am not a lawyer so I went to the oracle of Mt. Google – my concern is that there was nothing, and it seems that a trial is where we determine guilt vs. non-guilt. Thank you for the clarification though,

  • The decision was utterly baffling. I can only hope that the Police Commissioner will come down hard on this officer. And pray that this, plus Ferguson, plus that awful case from Ohio, serve as a wake-up call.

    • MarylandBill

      The problem is that Grand Juries operate from the evidence that is presented to them. In normal criminal cases, the prosecution presents will present his strongest evidence to the Grand Jury and and indictment is handed down because that is all the Grand Jury sees. In Ferguson, the prosecution essentially presented conflicting evidence which, when coupled with the fact that juries tend to give police the benefit of the doubt led to a lack of indictment. I can only speculate that in New York the prosecution did not even do that since the video on its own is pretty damning.

  • Elmwood

    disgusting, the guy was a father of five and was murdered for selling loose cigarettes. but if you rip the nation off for billions on wall street, no crime only golden parachutes and bail-outs.

    just one more reason to reject our nation’s paranoid police state mentality.

    • Ken

      Agree. This constant overuse of force for petty crimes is very dangerous. The big fear is for people to lose total confidence in our criminal justice process.

  • Ken
  • Dave G.

    This is one of those times I have to ask ‘what the hell is going on around here?’ I mean, come on. This isn’t this or that. This isn’t us or them. This isn’t jack booted thugs or violent murdering slums. Something has flown off the handle. I’ve done some digging, and it’s not easy since stats are so often used and denied and used again. But it seems that violent crimes are down. But assaults on cops and killing of cops is about the same. Or doing down. Or on the rise. Different sources say different things.

    What about whites killed by cops? What about cops killed or assaulted? What about non-cops killing non-cops? Have any whites been killed by black cops? Do we care? Seven blacks have been killed in our little neck of the woods since last week. Haven’t heard about them on the national news or Comedy Central. I get the feeling that the laser focus on a select set of cases and the complete willingness to ignore or dismiss a host of other cases is also part of the problem.
    I just get the feeling there is an entire iceberg of issues underneath the surface that nobody is talking about, or if they ask questions (like some of the ones above that my boys asked in light of the stories), charges of evasion, excuse making, or the old standby Racism! So I don’t know. I know a man was killed. And common sense and decency suggests he should have been held accountable for it. Yet he wasn’t. And yet a thousand times that number killed but no cameras anywhere. And some of them killed physically. Others not physically. Because the rhetoric I hear reminds me of what Jesus said. Thou shalt not kill? Oh yeah. But if you say Raca/Fool… If that’s the case, then on a spiritual level, I fear the body count is a hundred fold what the stats say. And perhaps that’s behind the problem more than anything. Just rambling thoughts I guess in light of it all.

    • Joseph

      Honestly, who gives a crap about distraction in this case. This isn’t like the *Ebola in the US* distraction. This is about cops killing unarmed citizens with or without weapons… and getting completely off the hook. As if that doesn’t send the wrong message, eh? If a guy is an actual threat (not some 18 year old bum rushing some skinny, wuss of a cop or a 400-pound man simply resisting without physical force) then, fine, a cop has to do what it takes to *apprehend* that person without lethal force. But there are so many incidents now, thanks to smart phones, where the cops are caught red-handed brutally beating or killing people unnecessarily. It’s a REAL problem. Sure, you’re probably right. It’s been an ace in the hole for a while and the government has given the mouthpiece media the permission to play it while the do something else off in the shadows, but that doesn’t make the problem any less of a problem. We simply can’t have cops roaming around with this attitude and swagger. It’s like the PDs are reaching out to those annoying f*ckin hall monitors in high schools who loved to rat on fellow students and act like some authority figure… or reaching out to kids who were bullied or were never good at sports or academics and have vengeance issues; ‘Ima gunna show these people who’s boss, I’m the boss now! See, I have the power and Ima gunna show you.’
      They need to re-evaluate their hiring practices and psychological evaluations. Stop hiring pansies to do a man’s job. This is what you get, a bunch of wussies who resort to violence at the drop of a hat because their wearing a badge. Once they were picked on for being wussies, now they want their turn to be the bullies. Pansies.

      • Dave G.

        I care about the facts. What about the increase in assaults on cops, if that is actually true? Could such things as ‘skinny, wuss of a cop’ attitudes be leading to that, which in turn makes cops edgy? And how about whites killed by cops? Does anyone care? If it’s so much not only about race (though everything about race at the same time) what about those? I’m against a generation of lemmings moving about based upon carefully crafted narratives. Propaganda it’s been called. Not that there isn’t a problem. Heck, where law enforcement is concerned, it’s always been there as a problem. But if we really, really super-really want to actually solve the problem, and not just exploit the deaths of carefully selected individuals because they help advance this or that agenda, we’ll take time to look at the facts, the data, the stats and take a long, honest look at everything we can. Or we can go on ignoring things when they don’t help, and suddenly becoming outraged because the media chose to ignore the last seven blacks killed in our neighborhood over the last week owing to no help in advancing agendas. That ensures important things: the agendas are advanced. The problem continues. People die. Cops die. Whites die. And only the important ones matter. Is that what we college educated post-moderns really want? I would like to think not. But then, I’ve been wrong before.

  • Jimmy

    Police Officers have a pretty rough life. They have to deal with very bad people many times a day. Officers have to deal with people who are constantly trying to trick them and tell them lies, etc. I am not condoning any killing, don’t get this wrong. But, the life an officer goes through can greatly harden them. This guy had more then 30 previous arrests. He certainly has some culpability in his own death. Its not been stated, but he probably wasn’t just selling “loosies”. NY has around a $5 per pack tax on cigarettes, and there is a huge black market were trailer loads of cigarettes are sold illegally denying storeowners profits for selling legally. This is a societial problem. Let’s stop blaming individual officers.

    • Mark S. (not for Shea)

      So it is the fault of society and high taxes? Sorry, but I’m not detecting any sarcasm in your post. I don’t care if he was selling PCP to the Ladies Auxiliary. Police officers do not have the right to strangle people to death.

      .

      But it seems that this particular crazy train has some pretty prominent passengers: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/12/03/3599475/rand-paul-blames-cigarette-taxes-for-the-death-of-eric-garner/

      • Jimmy

        Do you think the cop was truly actually wanting and purposefully seeking the death of this man?

        • I don’t know, but I do know he chose to place the man in a choke-hold, which was specifically banned by the NYPD in 1993 because of its potential to kill the person being restrained. At the very least, he was grossly negligent. Garner told them ELEVEN times “I can’t breathe,” but the officer never let go. No one deserves that.

        • Ken

          The officer doesn’t have to be purposefully trying to kill him. If he acts in a way that is willfully dangerous that can be considered manslaughter.

        • Jonk

          By making his business illegal, New York did in fact condone his death. That’s the center if every single law: we don’t like N, and we’re willing to kill you because of it.

      • Jimmy

        It is somewhat societies fault that there is a man on the street with 30 previous arrests and still is disrespectful of a group of officers who are trying to uphold the law. Again, I don’t want the death of anyone. But this man holds at least some of his own culpability.

        • jroberts548

          The number of previous arrests has no conceivable relevance to anything. The bar to arrest is low. It’s effectively non-existent, except for people with the money to hire a lawyer for a civil suit. It wouldn’t matter if he had been arrested infinity times.

      • Jonk

        Cops have the authority to kill people. It’s in their job description. If you’re not willing to kill over something, don’t make it a law that they’re required to enforce.

        If it’s a stupid law, someone will get belligerent, and that someone will end up beat up or dead. No amount if police training will prevent that. That’s human nature:
        “You can’t do that.”
        “What do you mean I can’t do that? That’s stupid.”
        “Are you resisting?”
        (Insert police beatdown we’ve all seen too many times.)

        If you’re not willing to kill over (that), don’t make (that) illegal.

    • jroberts548

      Garbage men are more likely to die on the job, and they literally deal with trash all day. Should we give them free passes for murder too?

  • David Naas

    And, just how much of “stuff” goes on normally, before the Media goes cruising for clickbait?

    I mean, isn’t it remarkable so many similar stories are happening in such close temporal proximity? Or are being *reported* as such? It is the Outrage Machine’s current fad. What’s next, a dozen stories about toddlers drowning in toilets?

    This is not to say something bad didn’t happen, but, c’mon. Why the sudden plethora. If these incidents (“incident” seems a mild word, but…) are so widespread, why were thy not reported earlier with this frequency?

    I somehow feel these reports are meant as a distraction from other things, a “Wag the Dog” manifestation.

    There is an agenda of the Right, and an agenda of the Left, and neither one has anything to do with conservatism or liberalism or justice or Christianity.

    But, what do I know?

    • jroberts548

      The problem is we don’t know, because there isn’t any real program with real standards for collecting data on cops’ use of force.

      If cops don’t want “the Outrage Machine” to make them look like racist and/or fascist thugs, the cops are the ones in the best position to do something about that by collecting data on their use of force and by not protecting cops who use excessive force.

    • MarylandBill

      Your right, the agenda of the media is different than the agenda of Christianity, but at times the two might coincide. I would much prefer have the media focus on ending police brutality on minorities than on some of the other things they have focused on in recent years.

  • virago

    But the police did ask him to stop; if the man had obeyed the cops request maybe he would still be alive.

    • chezami

      Clearly he had it coming.

      • Jimmy

        Every single person that bought illegal cigarettes from this man and kept him is business is just a much a part of his death as the police officer.

        • ivan_the_mad

          No, “[e]very single person that bought illegal cigarettes from this man and kept him is [sic] business is just a [sic] much a part of his” petty trafficking.

          Only one man’s arm choked him to death.

          Trafficking and choking aren’t the same thing. Your clue lies in the fact that they are different words.

        • Ken

          I didn’t realize that selling illegal cigarettes was punishable by the death penalty. Thanks for clarifying.

        • chezami

          The Party of Personal Responsibility *loves* to shift the blame from the Uniformed Power Figure to somebody else. It allegedly hates Big Government but loves displays of fascistic violence against the weak–blaming those displays on other weak people.

      • virago

        Oh of course, that is exactly how I feel! I hope you sense my sarcasm. When 4 men with guns and the support of government stop and harass over you over some stupid law enacted by stupid liberals the better idea might be to not resist. Yes, they should have asked him Garner to move along, I’m not sure he was even selling cigarettes at that time, but the idea I have isn’t capitulation to brutish authority but to survive that interaction. Policeman can be brutal as well as police work. Unfortunate, that cooler heads didn’t prevail on all sides.

    • Joseph

      No, you didn’t. Did you watch the video? Tell me again that the man deserved to have his trachea crushed. Did he do *anything* that deserved that. Let me know if you see anything because I missed that part.

    • Ken

      Police can’t kill a person for resisting arrest.

      • Jonk

        Apparently, they can. Pretty awesome, huh?

  • Jonk

    “Don’t support laws you are not willing to kill to enforce”

    This is why Mark’s Get to/Have to point is applicable to all laws, not just to war or the death penalty. Implicit in every law and every tax is the government power to kill you for noncompliance.

    So, for every law, tax, and government action, the question is not “When do we get to make people do this?” But rather “When do we have to make people do this?”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/05/dont-support-laws-you-are-not-willing-to-kill-to-enforce/