gay magically turned

gay magically turned August 13, 2011

This cartoon follows in the wake of Bill Hybels’ and Willow Creek’s pronounced stance on homosexuality. It seems that gay and Christian is the new monasticism.

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  • I’m not gay, but I’m a pain in the ass, thorn in the flesh wanna-be and love to be antithetical,
    antagonistic, diabolical and–I confess–a satan: criticizing, accusing, finding fault and flaw. Worse than gay, I guess. A nuisance. Challenging. Provoking–begging for argument and the improvement of terms. Can you bring me back into the positive fold? On the “right” side of satire and criticism? Piece, Piece, where there is no peace? (That pastor thinks he’s doing the work of the Lord, don’t you agree? “No one does wrong knowingly,” says Plato–or Socrates.

  • Alice

    Sorry, I don’t get the “new monasticism” comment. Can you clarify? Thanks.

  • Dorsey

    I can agree with your closing sentiments, Sam. It can be argued that even Hitler and Stalin believed they were doing the right thing. At it’s core, this issue isn’t about behavior as much as it is about absolute thinking (in all it’s many manifestations). The pastor in this cartoon rests securely in the notion that “I have the answers, therefore, I have nothing to learn from you.” This is the very essence of pride, which, I fundamentally believe, is the only real sin (at the least, pride is the foundation of every other sin).

  • Does the “NEW MONASTICISM” notion refer to my entry, Alice? I’m an “academic”; need opposition to put IT in play. (Love the enemy makes good practical sense–whatever piety you associate with the idea). And I confess–I extrapolated from the Gay-threat-to- Fundamentalist and simply recast the whole issue in terms of any system that will insist on either resisting or reconfiguring what ever challenges it. Makes good status-quo homeostatic sense. How it is we avoid demoralization and undermining.

  • Dorsey: as we say some of my best friends are _____ and so easily blame other not tolerant in these areas as I am. Where I’m tolerant is a pice of cake It’s where I’m not that it gets interesting. My homeland security bells and whistles go of and I’m in defense mode. That right there is theoretically where the action can begin. In my dialogu to dialectic classes I say: Look, the practice of dialectic can’t even begin until someone gets hurt. Not your sticks and stones hurt, of course. Maybe worse. That pastor isn’t hurting it looks like. Converting maybe–if he can.

  • Dorsey

    I think the monasticism reference is in regards to the link below the cartoon, in which Bill Hybels iterates a biblical ethic that endorses sex between married men and women, and abstinence for everyone else.

  • Therein lies the rub – progressive evangelicals want to minister to gay people (e.g., might even go so far as to support an LGBT homeless shelter) and claim they aren’t anti-gay because they have gay friends. But they draw the line at welcoming them in and enabling them to have the same rites as everyone else.

  • If we can agree that pride is the root of all sin, then none of us is without fault. The “tolerant” and “intolerant” among us are all in the same boat. Realizing that would be a good first step for folks on all sides of any issue, I think

  • Ed

    Now THAT would be a good cartoon, David. A big rowboat with people crowded at both ends in bunches. Large signs are on each end — one says “Tolerant” and the other “Intolerant”. Have the end of the boat showing that says “SS PRIDE”. Haha!

  • Pat Pope

    @Alice, I think what David means by the new monasticism is that being gay and Christian is the new way to be isolated. At least that’s what I take from his comments.

  • I agree with Pat… Not only isolated, but isolated as a “calling” from God. It’s sad.

  • fishon

    Becky Garrison
    August 13, 2011 | 9:21 am

    Therein lies the rub – progressive evangelicals want to minister to gay people (e.g., might even go so far as to support an LGBT homeless shelter) and claim they aren’t anti-gay because they have gay friends. But they draw the line at welcoming them in and enabling them to have the same rites as everyone else.
    ——-Why of course they are NOT going to be giving the same rites. Heck, I have had practing drug addicts and drunks attending church every Sunday. They acknowledge their drugs and booze, and do NOT expect to have the same rites as others. My daughter was a prostitute, and she attended a church on a regular bases. She did not think it unusal that they would NOT let her be a worship leader. I have had man and woman living together and never miss a service. I promise you they did NOT get upset becasue they were not going to become elders in the situation they chose to live in. Now, everyone of those folks where and are welcome into the church I pastor. They know where we stand on issues, and they respect our beliefs. Do they agree with them all? No, but they get along with the limitations put on them.

    Question. Do you believe Ted Haggard should have retained his “rite” as pastor? Or do you think his being found out to be a deceiver and a liar
    does NOT disqualify him as pastor?

    Everyone has to live up to some kind of standard. And if not lived up to, then the loss of a priveliged rite.

  • Goodness gracious, we all struggle with “ìsolation” or maybe “loneliness” or all the existential things Sam keeps aluding to. The “new monasticism” means that if you want to be Christian and are “gay” you can’t have any sex, i.e. it puts you back into the monastary with its vows of chastity, especially to become something holy, all of which the reformation did away with.

    However, this may be preferable to incredibly rampant sexual disease, (have you no stats? Want to be isolated, get one or more of those.)
    Sexual addictions and malfunctions are also rampant. My doctor told me about a lady in his practice whose common-law husband was found to have stuff on his computer that proved that he was participating in orgies regularly; these things are easily arranged nowadays. Can you imagine discovering you have been sleeping ? I believe this is now criminal behavior to not disclose this to your partner; but then who would disclose this? How will you have a partner?

    The tragic results may not be inevitable but they surely are common.

    The thing I don’t understand is why this is such a big deal since statistically a huge percentage of homosexual individuals are actually bisexual in behavior.

    I don’t want to be flippant because this is an area of great pain, but there are surely other sides to the story.

    Churches are voluntary associations and if you don’t like them you don’t have to go to them. But our children in schools all over the world are taught to question their sexuality already in the sandbox. This is insanity.

  • fishon

    Brigitte
    August 13, 2011 | 12:38 pm
    Churches are voluntary associations and if you don’t like them you don’t have to go to them. But our children in schools all over the world are taught to question their sexuality already in the sandbox. This is insanity.
    ____Spot on, Brigitte.

  • It is unconstitutional to pass laws that make homosexuality illegal.

    The medical and psychiatric associations consider homosexuality to be neither pathological nor abnormal – in other words, homosexuality is a normal healthy sexual orientation.

    A faith that ignores or rejects evidence is a delusion.

    ———————

    SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
    LAWRENCE et al. v. TEXAS

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZS.html

    ———————

    Are Biblical Laws About Homosexuality Eternal?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-elliott-friedman/biblical-law-on-homosexuality_b_911963.html?ref=fb&src=sp#sb=1531166,b=facebook

    ———————

    AMA Policy Regarding Sexual Orientation

    http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee/ama-policy-regarding-sexual-orientation.page

    ———————

    American Psychiatric Association

    Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies)

    http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200001.aspx

    Homosexuality and Civil Rights

    http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/197310.aspx

  • fishon

    Doug Sloan
    August 13, 2011 | 2:40 pm

    It is unconstitutional to pass laws that make homosexuality illegal.
    ____NO, it is not unconstitutional. Just because a few liberal, defective Judges say it is ok, does not make it so.

    The medical and psychiatric associations consider homosexuality to be neither pathological nor abnormal – in other words, homosexuality is a normal healthy sexual orientation.
    ____Yea, and when they say having sex with a…you’ll believe that too.

    A faith that ignores or rejects evidence is a delusion.
    ______delusional, maybe {NOT}.
    The evidence for not getting drunk is indisputable. It kills brain cell; does great damage to the liver and heart; and someone is killed every 50 minutes because of drunk driving. Dare I go into the indisputable evidence about how it tears families apart.

    SO YOU SAY: A faith that ignores or rejects evidence is a delusion.
    _____So you wouldn’t have any problems with the nation making getting drunk a crime? Just wondering how consistent you might be!

  • FISHON

    When the Supreme Court of the United States says it is unconstitutional – it is unconstitutional. Those are the rules. Specifically, that is what the constitution says the Supreme Court is suppose to do as the court of last resort. You can disparage the Supreme Court justices all you want and it will not change the fact that sodomy laws are unconstitutional in the United State of America meaning that it is unconstitutional to pass laws that make homosexuality illegal.

    Yes, I trust the expertise and research and evidence-based decisions of the AMA and APA over your opinions.

    Last I knew, in many circumstances, it is illegal to be drunk. The relevant laws should be better enforced.

  • fishon

    Not much more for me to say, Doug. You live in your world of 1 Tim. 4:1 and 2 Tim. 4:3. I will live in my intolerant world, but the day is coming when we both will stand before the Throne, then you will see! It is simple as this:
    I AM RIGHT AND YOUR ARE WRONG.
    And guys like me are not going away.
    Are guys like me losing the battle? YEP.
    But we will not lose the war.

  • whistling in the dark

  • Miriam

    Lots of opinions out there. I don’t know who is right or wrong. All I know is that I am gay, always have been because that’s how I was created. God loves me, you know? Would Jesus ask me to be celibate? I don’t think so personally.
    I hope one day we will all have a laugh in heaven about how many things we got wrong. There are so many different ways of looking at the bible, but ultimately it’s grace that gets us into heaven.

  • fishon

    nakedpastor
    August 13, 2011 | 10:17 pm

    whistling in the dark
    ____That’s the difference between you and I, David. I am sure, while you hedge your bets on most everything. Heck, you’re still trying to figure it all out with you unfinished Z theory. And you have been afraid to declare whether Jesus is the only way or not. You live in the land of “I don’t know and we can’t know.” I live in the land of absolutes. You would have had a very hard time living around Joshua. “Choose this day….” But then, it is the same today. You can’t choose because in truth you are afraid you might be wrong. Jesus would rather man be hot or cold, but not lukewarm. That makes him vomit.

    Well, enough of my ranting. I’ll give you and your’s a little break from my distasteful outbursts. Dang, and I was going to shout scripture at you and your buds, but then I know how you hate someone using “Thus saith.” I’ll be lurking, but then, silence is golden.

  • “… silence is golden.”

    That’s the first sensible thing you’ve said. If only…

  • fishon: you yourself admit that you can’t converse. you state. you said, ‘Not much more for me to say.’ which means i’ll quote scripture and that’s it. record the bible and press play. how’s that a conversation?

  • amazonfeet

    Note to other readers and David: I’m about to read this fellow the riot act….Fishon, seeing how this seems to be a place where people who have been bludgeoned mentally and spiritually by verbal two by fours for years, if not for most of their lives, by you and people like you, are supposed to be able to come for refuge from you and people like you, I wonder why you even bother to come here. Your next to last post says it all: I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG. Fishon, I’ll call you what you are: you are a troll and a bully, and the RIGHT churches with absolute standards are full of bullies like you who are not content to follow your exacting standards in your churches; you are trying to make total strangers in the world at large subject through them in the secular courts and laws, flipping your middle fingers at the principle of constitutional separation of church and state. You are even picketing outside of churches and sending people in to invade them during their worship services, violating their sacred space, because they don’t live up to your “standards”. Don’t even begin to tell me you don’t invade churches – mine was invaded in July by “Gentle Christian” people with ties to domestic terror. Nobody can get any relief from you – you follow us to our places of refuge, stomp all over our boundaries because you don’t see any boundaries but your own as being legitimate, and basically rub a pound of salt in the raw gaping bloody wounds that you have given so many of us over the years. Why don’t you give us all a permanent break and rejoin your fellows at the fundamentalist absolutist church of your choice, and dominate the people there? People like me go to churches like mine because it’s all the organized religion they can handle. Some of them don’t go anywhere at all because it’s impossible to find one that doesn’t have a bunch of people like you in it. My Unitarian Universalist church models Jesus’ love to me a hell of a lot better than anyone like you, in any church like yours, and kept me from swallowing every prescription pill I owned and dying, while you absolutist Christians were trying to keep me from getting enough care to keep a roof over my head, feed myself, obtain medical care, and be able to stay alive. I am alive today and not six feet underground in a cheap pine box, because of the compassion showed me by every group imaginable that you disapprove of. Do not ever respond even indirectly to anything I post in response to David’s posts, cartoons or anything else. He understands where I’m coming from and he respects me. So do a majority of the people that post here. You don’t. You come from a tradition that sorely over abuses the word “love” without having any idea whatsoever how to love or what love even is. I have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullies of any stripe, especially when they come to my places of refuge and try to violate me. Stop it, and just go away. My boundaries are mine – you respect them, and LEAVE ME ALONE.

  • amazonfeet

    To everyone else: thank you for putting up with me. I like the above cartoon because it’s obvious this doesn’t work; and despite the fact that some people would have you think otherwise, I see happy well adjusted gay people, some married for years, whether the state approves or not. My faith community welcomes them, they are just like anyone else, and we all get along fine. I am one of them who hasn’t found Ms. Right yet, having not come out till age 41, and having a lot of chronic health issues.

  • John W. Morehead

    Is there a place for a biblical-reassessment of the conservative evangelical stance on homosexuality? If we’re really sola scriptura, and not simply sola assumptions/traditions, then we might be surprised. Evangelicals are rethinking the Genesis creation accounts in light of ancient near eastern cultural considerations as well as the scientific evidences. We might be surprised if we reassess things in a different area.

  • fishon

    amazonfeet
    August 14, 2011 | 10:00 am
    ———-Don’t fool yourself, amazonfeet. You are NO different than me. You are just as militant as I, only coming from a different position. You will defend yourself by saying you are only reacting to intolerance. Bull.

    YOUR WORDS: I’m about to read this fellow the riot act….Fishon
    —Why do you get to read the riot act to a person but take me on for doing it?

    I’ll call you what you are: you are a troll and a bully
    —Yea, I know. Anyone that disagrees with you, gives their opinion that you hate, yea, that makes them a bully.

    You are even picketing outside of churches and sending people in to invade them during their worship services, violating their sacred space, because they don’t live up to your “standards”.
    —Never picketed in my life. And hey, I don’t even live up to my standards. Oh, by the way, you might google and see the amount of times gays have invaded churches that believe like me. Yea, yea, I know, that is totally different.

    you follow us to our places of refuge,
    —See, there you go, speaking of that which you know not. Never followed a gay in my life. Wow! All these unfounded assurtions.

    a bunch of people like you
    —OH, that sounds almost biggoted.
    I dare say I say “a bunch of people like….
    Ouch!

    Why don’t you give us all a permanent break and rejoin your fellows at the fundamentalist absolutist church of your choice, and dominate the people there?
    —I don’t need to rejoin…I was in church this morning. I know, someone speaking their mind equals “dominate” in your mind. No, you just don’t like my opinions and beliefs. And your defense against them are, I am an ugly “dominate.”

    My Unitarian Universalist church models Jesus’ love to me a hell of a lot better than anyone like you
    —Oops. That sounds awfully judgemental to me. But then, that’s ok for you, you can do that when you are ‘reading the riot act’ to a bigot. But bigot, don’t you dare judge me[you].

    while you absolutist Christians were trying to keep me from getting enough care to keep a roof over my head, feed myself, obtain medical care, and be able to stay alive.
    —Well, since your very first post directed to me was so forthcoming and honest, I will be towards you. I believe you are lying about your above statement. That is unless you live never the Westboro Baptist Church. Then I stand corrected.

    Do not ever respond even indirectly to anything I post in response to David’s posts, cartoons or anything else.
    —Amazon, that statement makes you worse than you paint me out to be. You respond to a post between me and someone else. You belittle me; berate me, and then you tell me “Do not ever respond….” Tell you what I will do, though. If you are don’t indirectly or directly elude to me, I won’t bother you; however, when you do as you did in your post about me, expect a response. I do find it interesting that you would respond to a post of my not addressed to you–but not give me that option.

    He understands where I’m coming from and he respects me. So do a majority of the people that post here. You don’t.
    —I don’t know you. How can I respect or not respect you? You are apparently of the “bunch” that equate respect with agreement with your beliefs and opinions. I have a very good gay, buddist friend. She would tell you you are wrong about me. But then, she does not demand that I agree with her lifestyle or religious beliefs. And dang, I never have had the Elders throw her out of the church when she occasional comes. Never even crossed my mind. But since your raise the point….

    You come from a tradition that sorely over abuses the word “love” without having any idea whatsoever how to love or what love even is
    —Oops. There is that touch of judgementalism again.

    I have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullies of any stripe,
    —Yea, I know, I know. The only intolerance tolerated in the Bible is intolerance for the intolerant. NOT! Intolerance is intolerance by any name you give it, or by any color you want to make it.

    Stop it, and just go away.
    —I am not going away. But here is how you can handle it. JUST DON’T READ MY POST.

    My boundaries are mine – you respect them, and LEAVE ME ALONE.
    —Now that statement says it all. This is a public forum, you know that. By it very nature, and David knows this, it invites differences of opinion. And David knows full well, that if he was to ask me to leave, I would, though I could stick around and bully, as you say. But, Amazon, your characterization of me is way off base. I would honor his request, just as I will honor your’s. You tell me LEAVE YOU ALONE. Please, tell me, show me, have we ever spoken here before? How can you ask me to leave you alone when I never have spoken to you before? Or are you saying I have less right to be in this blog site than you? You address me–and then you tell me to leave you alone. That is just plain nuts.

    Like I said, I will not post to you, but if you post about me or reference me, I will respond. Write what you will, and I can disagree to the high heavens, just don’t envolve me and you will not hear from me.
    Jerry [fishon]

  • well fishon, if i may, i would say that on a blog that is basically known for helping people who have experienced spiritual abuse… it is best to be gentle, which you don’t seem to be able to do. you might say, “well they’re not gentle!”, but you need to realize THEY are the abused ones. i think you are unaware of this dynamic.

  • fishon

    David,
    YOU SAID: you might say, “well they’re not gentle!”,
    —-Then you say:but you need to realize THEY are the abused ones
    —-Do you realize what you just said. Read your words and think it over. You are a very smart fellow. I am serious; analyze what you wrote in those 2 sentences.

  • Miriam

    Wow, this is getting rather heated… and it’s not even anything to do with gay christians anymore.
    What are you so angry about Fishon? Can you not agree to disagree about anything?

  • Abused people need to be able to express their anger towards the abuser – it is part of their recovery and healing. The abuser is going to garner little or no sympathy (and rightly and justly so) for being offended by the anger from those he/she abused.

    For too long, Christianity has been hijacked by the culture and imperial theology of the Roman Empire. We will oppose this political religion by naming it and labeling it for what it is: abusive and a lie.

  • fishon

    Miriam
    August 14, 2011 | 10:57 pm

    Wow, this is getting rather heated… and it’s not even anything to do with gay christians anymore.
    What are you so angry about Fishon?
    ——Ah Miriam, I am angry at nothing at the moment. I believe if you were to analyze amazonfeet’s tirade, now there you might find anger. I just say what I think, how I feel, what I believe, and what I know, and that makes me angry? No, not really. I have passion, but I am about the least angry man living.

  • fishon

    Doug Sloan
    August 14, 2011 | 11:04 pm

    Abused people need to be able to express their anger towards the abuser – it is part of their recovery and healing. The abuser is going to garner little or no sympathy (and rightly and justly so) for being offended by the anger from those he/she abused.
    ——Doug, I agree with that. However, it has become fashionable to play victim in our country. And I have found in my experience that many, many people who cry abuse are crying “Wolf.” It have become common-place to act badly, and when confronted, scream, “Abuse.”
    I have said on here that I believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is sin. Next thing I know, I am labeled intolerant, bigoted, and abusive. That, Doug, is not abuse.

    For too long, Christianity has been hijacked by the culture and imperial theology of the Roman Empire.
    —-I know, I know, 2,000 years hijacked. Caesar rules—-That is laughable. I bet you are full of conspiracy theories. Like I told you, you may be winning the battle, but you WILL lose the war.

    We oppose this political religion by naming it and labeling it for what it is: abusive and a lie.
    —–So be it. But the Bible makes it plain, YOU LOSE.!

  • Miriam

    Fishon: You say:”We oppose this political religion by naming it and labeling it for what it is: abusive and a lie.
    —–So be it. But the Bible makes it plain, YOU LOSE.!”

    Lose what? God’s love? No way 🙂 The bible as we know it has been changed through translation many times over the centuries. How can you know 100% that the translation you read today is correct? God loves me, He loves you. Argue that if you will.

  • fishon

    Miriam
    August 14, 2011 | 11:55 pm

    YOU SAID:God loves me, He loves you. Argue that if you will.
    ______If as you say, The bible as we know it has been changed through translation many times over the centuries. How can you know 100% that the translation you read today is correct?
    ——-Then how do YOU KNOW “God loves me, He loves you,” if what you say is true?

    You just wrote: “How can you [me] know? Well, Miriam, by using the same logic that you used to make the declaritive statement “God loves….” If you can know that after all those translations, why can’t I know what I know.

    You can know, but I can’t! Flawed logic.

    Well, I would love to continue this, but I am off with the wife for a little 2 day road trip.
    Going check out the rural sites of the great State of Oregon.

  • I’ve been bully and troll,too, Amazonfeet–on this blog and facebook, and among my colleages
    across the curriculum. I smell my own brimstone. More justifiable in academic contexts than in others. But no one loves an antagonist (literally, dia-bolical). How to put IT in play, thesis & antithesis: loving the opposition (enemy) so the spirit of the whole might be said to advance, well–I don’t know & haven’t succeeded. Wishful thinking.
    Here’s a notion I’ve had re the blog that maybe goes against the whole–or contributes to it. Been trying to get IT out there for reaction across the divisions and “I’ll’s”

    All the Naked Pastor cartoons expose me,
    victim and abuser, bullied and bully,
    shunned and shunner; immediately I
    identify with victim, bullied, and shunned
    self-righteously casting aspersion and
    derogation at the bad guy, pastor in a
    box, flock of angry exclamation marks,
    the bundled up and wealthy ignoring the
    beggar in the street, the starving in Somalia.

    But actually, in the mirror I’m a heart of
    darkness: narcissistic solipsist sealed-in
    to my ego-conscious lucid schemes, aims,
    desires, jealous and envious, manipulative,
    controlling, fearful and anxious, hateful and
    yet wanting to be seen, heard, touched, fed
    and certainly liked if not loved even as mean
    spirited as I am..
    .
    The cartoons strip me to the bone, Naked
    Pastor: what church can possibly accommodate
    such dry bones and deadness? . Stinks to
    high hello. Do I have to deny and cover
    up to get in? Fake it—the “goodness”?
    ill The Church of the Naked Pastor
    accept a wretch like me? That would be
    awesome grace–& amazing

  • Sister Marie

    The future offers hope so I am optimistic that perhaps 100 years from now, thos who call themselves Christians will look back with a mixture of frustration and thankfulness. After all, we survived the transition to the fact that the earth is no longer flat. And some of us have finally had to concede that the earth is older than 6000 years. A healthy percentage of Christendom lives out their entire lives without ever confessing their sins to a priest. And one of the major political parties is about to nominate a gentleman who believes that the angel Moroni handed Joe Smith some plates with a supplement to the Bible recorded on them.

    Will miracles never cease?

  • Of course if you are fat and post-menopausal, there is no sex for you EVER either! I tell pastors who seem so intent on managing everyone else’s sex life that if they are truly into promoting heterosexuality – they should convince men my age to date women like me. If heterosexual marriage is so darn important, then why don’t they spend as much if not more time encouraging it, than they do discouraging same-gender marriage? Isn’t it totally illogical to focus on the sex life of people who aren’t even in your congregation? Pastors here’s a newsflash! There are a lot of heterosexual single ladies in your churches needing to meet decent heterosexual fellows – so focus on that will you and kindly leave the queer folk alone.

  • fishon

    Louise la francofun!
    August 15, 2011 | 11:30 am
    —–There’s where you fail in you logic and conclusions. It ain’t about their sex lives; it is about their sin that happens to be sex life.

    Well off on a road trip, so you can responed or not. It ain’t sex, it is sin that is the issue. And that is a pastor’s business.

  • A pastor’s business, maybe–(forgive me David), probably not a minister’s. With that agenda (the sin of the whirl) there’s probably no end to the work–a veritable vineyard of sin for a Pastor to glean, make it his business. Harvest.
    For what it’s worth (worthless to Fishon I’m sure) the word “sin” etymologically comes from I.E es, esse: meaning “essence,” “being,” Makes the notion original sin both redundant and powerful Essence. Being. The pastor’s business. Have a good road trip, Fishon. Think on these things. We can argue when you get back. xxxooo

  • I also happen to think it is a sin to have no sex life altogether…

  • kls

    Gay + Christian IS the new monasticism – I was told by an episcopal franciscan…

  • kls

    (to clarify, many of the gay folks who wanted to be ordained without having a lot of questions asked simply joined religious orders, to avoid the prying eyes)

  • fishon once again shows your ignorance.

    Ted Haggard should have known who he was and not try to deny it and live a double life.

    “It is unconstitutional to pass laws that make homosexuality illegal.
    ____NO, it is not unconstitutional. Just because a few liberal, defective Judges say it is ok, does not make it so.”
    —–>Actually it is. All men are created equal right? Even Gay Men. They are given life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    “The medical and psychiatric associations consider homosexuality to be neither pathological nor abnormal – in other words, homosexuality is a normal healthy sexual orientation.
    ____Yea, and when they say having sex with a…you’ll believe that too.”
    —–>Empirical data around the 1970s.

    “A faith that ignores or rejects evidence is a delusion.
    ______delusional, maybe {NOT}.
    The evidence for not getting drunk is indisputable. It kills brain cell; does great damage to the liver and heart; and someone is killed every 50 minutes because of drunk driving. Dare I go into the indisputable evidence about how it tears families apart.
    ——–>So being gay is like being drunk? that’s your metaphor? And what about all those kids left behind due to the 50% divorce rate? Heteros do a great job at screwing up families and tearing them apart, and many of my LGBTQ friends adopt those kids and stitch their lives back together. seems like you’re using “the exception that proves the rule fallacy.”

  • There are three comments I have.

    1. A penis has OBVIOUSLY created to fit into a vagina. Everyone knows this by instinct and experience. Those who feel they need to act contrary to this will be felt by the majority of people of any religion or no religion to not be withing “normalcy”. This does not mean we cannot love and respect you as persons. And who is “normal” anyhow. I still would love to have you as a friend and sister/brother.

    To put a penis in a rectum is very unhealthy and tends to lead to even crazier ideas, such as putting it into other things, that you can’t get it out of afterward. DON’T do it–even within heterosexual marriage. Do not give an inch in teaching children that this could possibly be a good thing. This is a public health warning to all out there who might be contemplating trying it. This is serious people and people ruin their lives and health. Maybe you didn’t but lots of others have.

    2. Having been “abused” does not give you permission to go around willy-nilly accusing blanket all sorts of people and certainly not just because they disagree with you.

    3. A pastor’s job is to preach the Bible faithfully and watch out for his parishioners. The Bible has lots to say about sexual sin because all of it has huge repercussions, usually on the weaker ones–women and children. This goes for relational things, family items, income, support and raising of children in fatherless homes, as well as STI’s the lifelong consequences of which are also considerably worse for women.

    PS
    Other than that, I agree with Louise: more sex for post-menopausal women! I’m slowly getting there, but my husband has high blood pressure… Point is there are all kinds of deprivations in life. None of us are the only ones.

  • Brigitte – if my ex-husband “The Pastor” hadn’t left me for a younger thing I would not be in this predicament. Regarding your “reservations” I note that in Uganda they teach the same “health” issues you do and are hoping to solve the problem by killing all the gay folk. Now I think death is a lot unhealthier than the manner in which a subject is penetrated.

  • What do you mean Louise. I have heard that the program in Uganda was very successful and the rate of HIV was comparatively better. Usually, HIV does the killing.

  • Christine

    Brigitte – I honestly thought you were being sarcastic. I laughed, because I though it was a good mockery of the ridiculous arguments that get posited.

    Then I realized you were being serious.

    So, here’s an anatomy lesson:

    Penis-in-vagina is only obviously meant for procreation. I’ll give you that. But the human body, if we say it was designed, was clearly designed with pleasurable, non-procreative sex acts in mind.

    The prostate gland, located in the male anus, is roughly equivalent to the gland that makes the female G-spot in the vagina. The gland moves during fetal development and becomes either the prostate or the G-spot depending on the sex of the fetus.

    Similarly, the nerve endings in the penis correspond to the nerve cluster that makes the clitoris on women (where many if not most women orgasm most easily). This makes female orgamism actually much easier without penetration than with.

    These interesting facts combined seem to suggest that the human body was meant for sexual pleasure both internally and externally for both men and women.

    Maybe it’s not obvious to those who have never tried anything other the missionary position (that’s a general comment – not meant towards you, specifically), but it is real and can be (fairly) easily experienced for yourself if you want to verify it.

  • I have said nothing about pleasure, certainly not against it. I would suggest that Solomon was highly in favor of it. However, Christine, you may familiarize yourself with the other issues.

  • Brigitte – I shouldn’t be laughing and I will refrain from proffering a mean-spirited response because obviously you are sincere. You may be repeating what your trusted pastor told you from the pulpit or know very little about life outside of church. HIV is a terrible disease and affects men, women, children, and until recently haemophiliacs. It weighs heavily on the heterosexual and gay communities alike. The LGBT community is more educated and sensitive about the disease and is more likely to practice safe sex. HIV is on the rise, as are other sexually transmitted diseases, among heterosexual women over 50 and teen-agers. In Africa, women are getting infected by heterosexuals and not by gay men who don’t usually sleep with women much less rape them. I also hear STDs are less prominent in the lesbian community.
    I have heard of several “testimonies” of believers who claim G-d has healed them of HIV and who have unprotected sex with their spouses further infecting them. Ignorance is more dangerous than sexual orientation. It is this ignorance that encourages people to kill and imprison people whose only crime is same-gender attraction.

  • Christine

    What kind of response is that???

    I didn’t dismiss other issues. I only found your claim about “OBVIOUS” purpose or “design” ludicrous. And the idea that “the majority” of people by “instinct and experience” find sex acts other than putting a penis in a vagina to be outside of “normalcy” seems quite naive.

    If you don’t dispute any of what I said, doesn’t that completely undermine all of your “1.” above? (The rest of the post was completely beside the subject.)

    So, what “other issues” do you feel need to be considered (and assume I am not familiar with)?

  • Christine

    Louise – You’re right about the lesbian STD aspect. Biologically, STDs are slightly more likely to be passed between two men than a man and woman, but less likely (and I believe by a greater margin) to be passed between two women. Add to that the lower incidence of certain STDs (particularly HIV/AIDS) among women (in the western world, at least) and the risk of getting say, HIV/AIDS, from lesbian sex is practically nil. That doesn’t mean protection is unnecessary. Safe sex is important regardless of the genders involved (making transmission between any combination of genders far less likely than any combination without protection).

    Of course, fidelity also works for all types of sex, too. If two people who didn’t previously have an STD only have sex with each other, then STDs aren’t going to inflect them out of thin air (there’s a debate about how much people should trust each other, but that’s a separate discussion). And gay sex, like certain sex acts among straight people, comes without the risk of unwanted pregnancies.

    I don’t know what other health risks Brigette may be referring to (other than say, tearing, which happens with vaginas, too, btw). The issues at hand are essentially protection and number of partners, not anatomy.

  • Christine

    Oh and this: “To put a penis in a rectum… tends to lead to even crazier ideas, such as putting it into other things, that you can’t get it out of afterward.”

    Seriously? Where in the world did you get that idea? (Obvious not from personal experience.)

    I can only conclude that you really don’t know much about gay sex. (Which makes sense – you probably shouldn’t.) But making wild claims like these (which seems completely unfounded or based on one or two bizarre stories that really have no relevance to the discussion) and generalizing it to an entire group of people shows an ignorance and bias which makes it hard to take you seriously.

  • Christine,

    Thanks for your input which is always appreciated. Personally, I think a lot of homophobia stems from ignorance about sex in general! There may be a lot said about sex in the media, but the subject is still filled with misconceptions if not missed conceptions! :p

    And we should thank NP for providing a venue for dialogue on the subject.

  • Vie

    Again, wow.
    I’m amazed by the debates in the comments section on this blog, in a good way! 😀 It’s great to see diversity.
    Just, angry arguments are best avoided, but anyway, I digress…

    With issues like this I just try to avoid hypocrisy.
    I can’t say I’m against gays, because I’m a queer one myself.
    I can’t say I’m against abortion, because I know what I’d do if I were in that position.
    All I can do is communicate God/Jesus’s teaching.
    Which never once said that any person is denied salvation until they live a certain way.
    I believe the most important factor is grace and salvation, and also (in this instance) letting people in the LGBT community know that the God/Jesus doesn’t hate them, no matter what the church may think.

    Preach the word of Christ, if they are saved then great! Just like anyone else.
    Doesn’t mean they’ll be magically straight.