An Open Letter to Extremist Muslims: Texas Attack is an Attack on Islamic Values Also!

An Open Letter to Extremist Muslims: Texas Attack is an Attack on Islamic Values Also! May 6, 2015

Dear Extremist Muslims,

What happened in Texas a few days back was not only an attack on American values, it was also an attack on Islamic values. You see, they do not have to be mutually exclusive. Freedom of speech is, after all, a central tenet of the Quran. “Be patient over what they say”, the Quran says, “and depart from them graciously.” (Quran, 73:10) Or, “Whenever they (believers) hear vain talk of ridicule, they withdraw from it decently and say, ‘“To us our deeds and to you yours; Peace be upon you, we do not seek to join the ignorant.” (Quran, 28:55)

Also Read: Punishment for Blasphemy is not Quranic

But, you are not one to listen.  Instead, you maintain that the shootings in Texas were “Tit for tat justice”. That violence is surely to be expected when mocking a faith many held dear by many. And therein lies the painful irony you miss, partly because you’re brainwashed by Mullahs not to think for yourselves, and party because you’re woefully ignorant about the Quran.

So, consider this: Prophet Muhammad, the man we Muslims so admire and respect, was nothing short of a blasphemer in the eyes of the Quraysh. Like other messengers, he was a radical reformer, one who spoke passionately against the way of life of Quraysh. Surely, that was a direct attack on their “religious sentiments” and oppressive ways. So, what did they do? They persecuted him and his followers.

You tell me, were they right in doing so?

On the one hand, you despise them for persecuting the Prophet, but on the other, you too wish to persecute those who criticize your faith. Do you not reflect at these double-standards at all? How can you be so blind? How can you be so oblivious to realize that you are nothing but a contemporary embodiment of Quraysh’s line of thought?  The hypocrisy is astounding!

So, ask yourself this: who are you really defending? The prophet who was persecuted for expressing opinions which were against the status quo or the status quo itself?  By behaving like Quraysh, you are not “defending” the honor of Prophet Muhammad. If anything, you are defending his persecutors!

If you believe that Prophet Muhammad should not have been persecuted by the Quraysh, you should also allow the same luxury (of freedom of speech) to everyone else. You cannot, however much you may want it, have it both ways. Truth, after all, is consistent; is it not?

Pamella Geller, the organizer of the event, is a known bigot and Islamophobe who misuses freedom of speech to advance her agenda. But, how to respond to her anti-Muslim campaign? “And not equal are good and bad deeds. Hence, repel evil with good!” the Quran says (41:34). So, the only constructive and effective way to respond to her provocative speech is by breaking the very stereotypes she propagates of Muslims!

Unfortunately, by reacting violently and supporting such gruesome acts, you validate the very stereotypes she propagates of Muslims. Your actions, if you only realize, hurt us Muslims the most. Far from doing “God’s work”, you are actually doing Pamella’s work for her, and in your woeful ignorance, you don’t even realize it!

You just don’t get it, do you?

 

Sincerely,

A concerned Muslim

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Donald Hysa

    There are quite a few

    cases when Mohamed had people killed for offending him in the Hadiths what do you think of that?

  • Ross Sauer

    Anytime the “persecuted” get some power, the first thing they do is oppress others.
    Christians made it mandatory to be part of the official church.
    Muslims grabbed power wherever they could, and still do.
    The first thing the Pilgrims did here in the “New World” was set up a theocracy.
    And so on…

  • Robert Albro

    I think it follows Rabbi Saul of Tarsus / St Paul persecuting and killing Christens, just a few hundred years latter

  • Donald Hysa

    How is that related?

  • bill wald

    Most every religion has a civilized “middle way.” Most every religion has a left/right wing that is not civilized. The primary difference between Christianity and some other religions is that we civilized Christians are not afraid to criticise our left and right wings.

  • bill wald

    Say again? Whom did Rabbi Saul have killed? Saul/Paul died about 600 years after Paul died.

    Muhammad – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

    In 632, a few months after returning to Medina from the Farewell Pilgrimage,Muhammad fell ill and died. Before his death, most of the Arabian Peninsula had …

    Judaism and Christianity have become more civilized in the last 2,000 years. Islam is stilling living in the 8th century?

  • Robert Albro

    the only relation is we are going to die anyways …its just the timing…. if its in the name of religion or politics old age or any other cause, if its a Lutheran gassing Jews in Germany, Ottomans Turks slaughtering Armenians , Sikes vs. Hindu in sub Asia, Buddhist vs. the Chinese, or Atheist vs. the communist, 50 to 80 years were, nothing more than worm food.

  • Robert Albro

    sorry for the confusion, I meant Muhammad was the latter. If time is the requirement for being civilized, we may need to include India, and China

  • Donald Hysa

    still not related to my post

  • steve

    Mohammed was NOT a prophet. No god has ever spoken to a human, because gods are imaginary.

  • Fred Flint

    The problem with Quron is that it has two parts, one part was written with the phrases like the ones above, the 2nd part was written after Mohammed was rebuffed. Its the 2nd part that wants vengence.

  • if people in your religion kill people for drawing harmless cartoons, then you have no right calling anyone else a bigot.

  • FeisalK

    a few? what are these hadiths?

  • Donald Hysa

    Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

    Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:

    Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). “The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the ‘Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as ‘Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. ” have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best ‘Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”

  • Donald Hysa

    The Hadith is from Sahih Bukhari

  • Mark Zimmer

    Sure, if you put aside the crusades, excommunications, the Spanish Inquisition, the time that Christianity took hold of Europe and the Dark Ages started, numerous priests and their love for boys, ‘Neutral’ stance of the Vatican during World War 2, George Bush’s Crusade in Irak. Sure, Chrstians are very civilized.

  • ronmurp

    Mark, you can indeed put aside much of the history, of both Islam and Christianity, and focus on current implementation.

    There’s enough divisive Christianity around, and the US has a particularly troublesome number of sects.

    George Bush (and Tony Blair) were indeed religiously motivated people, but the invasion of Iraq was primarily to remove Saddam, and of course make the region stable enough to ensure a safe supply of oil – not entirely altruistic reasons.

    However, I don’t think there are many Christians who think Christian apostasy deserves death, or that blasphemers deserve death, or that homosexuals deserve death, or that adulterers deserve death, …

    Currently a great number of Muslims do hold to those punishments regarding Islam.

    Many do not of course. There are liberal reforming Muslims that would put a lot of the barbaric punishment into the past where it belongs, along with the crusades.

    But there are many ‘moderate’ Muslims who seem to make their acceptance of these punishments depend on where they live and who they are talking to. Quite a few Muslims that speak publicly on Islam will make all the right noises when in the west speaking to the western press, but happily go along with more extreme rhetoric when in the company of Muslims.

    The liberal Muslim Maajid Nawaz tells us about ‘Entryism’, and there have been undercover recordings in British mosques were the narrative toward the Kafir is more explicitly unfriendly.

  • FeisalK

    so you’ve actually got only one hadith, not “a few” , and actually, if you take the story in context, this Hadith isn’t even about apostasy – it’s about treason.

    here is the Quranic perspective on apostasy:
    http://www.islamicperspectives.com/apostasy1.htm

    And from hadiths:
    http://www.islamicperspectives.com/PunishmentOfApostasy_Part2.html

    there’s also another rule people forget – the Prophet s.a.w cannot possibly countermand the word of God – so if the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion (in 2:256) any Hadith that claims the contrary needs to be questioned.

  • El Cid

    ” I don’t think there are many Christians who think Christian apostasy deserves death, or that blasphemers deserve death, or that homosexuals deserve death, or that adulterers deserve death, …

    All of the above punishments are explicitly commanded in the Holy Bible. What Christians think does not change the Bible.

    For example my thinking that an apple is an orange does not change the composition of either fruit but is a comment on my thinking.

    “Currently a great number of Muslims do hold to those punishments regarding Islam.”

    Some Muslims may have that opinion. They are free to hold whatever opinion they wish to hold but their opinion does not change what is in the Noble Qur’an.

    The Qur’an is independent of their opinion. They function within the spectrum of blasphemy and hypocrisy. Not as Muslims.

  • El Cid

    The Hadith, means statement or talk, was written by motivated men from hearsay evidence going back, word of mouth passed from generation to generation, 250 years.

    Anyone who has had a single 101 lowest level course in Human behavior, Psychology or Communications knows that it can be nothing more than a hodge podge of rubbish, gossip, rumors, errors and lies.

    Further, the Hadith ridicules MuhammadPBUH, repudiates science, verified facts, logic, commonsense. It degrades women, Jews, minorities. But most of all it abrogates, often conflicts with the Noble Qur’an. And even more egregious of all…it mocks Allah Almighty !

    The Hadith is Satanic and the best weapon ever devised and successfully employed against the personality intellect, piety of MuhammadPBUH, Muslims and Islam.

    The Hadith was anticipated by Allah and warned against in the Noble Qur’an 250 years before it was concocted by deceitful devious cunning men. The Qur’an explicitly states that Muslims should NOT believe in any Hadith other than Qur’an Majeed.

    The Sunnah of MuhammadPBUH is the Sunnah of Allah Almighty = The Noble Qur’an.

    The Hadith is from Shataan the beguiler.

  • El Cid

    “Judaism and Christianity have become more civilized

    How? Unless you consider the genocidal industrial level slaughter, plunder, rape, enslavement of other human beings by the millions…civilized behavior.

  • El Cid

    The Hadith is Satanic as explained to you in my post earlier, above.

  • bill wald

    When one considers the last 100 years . . . .

  • El Cid

    Are you saying, do you mean to say that you have never heard of WWI, WWII, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Toyko, Holocaust…
    Wow!

  • ronmurp

    Right, what Christians think does not change the Bible – usually. But historically the Bible has been changed, by Christians.

    But, texts exist, peoplerread texts, people interpret texts and adopt beliefs, some people act based on what they believe the texts mean. There is a variable connection between texts and acts.

    The reformation(s) in Christianity has disposed much of the acts based on the more unsavoury elements of the Biblical text. And, the Bible consists of many books from many authors. So Christianity has a great deal of room for manoeuvre.

    Islam less so. One book, one messenger, inerrant, applicable for all time.

  • ronmurp

    “Anyone who has had a single 101 lowest level course in Human behavior, Psychology or Communications knows that it can be nothing more than a hodge podge of rubbish, gossip, rumors, errors and lies”

    And the Quran is a perfectly reliable legitimate document? Right. LOL

  • El Cid

    “And the Quran is a perfectly reliable legitimate document? Right.”

    Right.
    It was written down as spoken. Ever dot, dash, letter, punctuation were counted, written and noted, recorded.

    Ever line, verse, passage, Surah were given the same type of ‘Check Sum’ that every computer internet data transmission, a mathematical control used now in the 21st century…done in the 7th. A miracle of its own and of current century time.

    The Qur’an was to memory too, then and now…millions of Muslim have it by heart today, around the World.

    The Qur’an is the only Book in the World that is in its exact rendition as it was on the day it was written. Not mine, but the verdict of non-Muslim scholars and researchers.

    Should, in some hypothetical catastrophe, all the books of the world, in all their storage protocols are lost/destroyed. Only the Qur’an has the potential of being revived as it is exactly because millions of Muslims have it to memory.

    No other scripture has this potential. No one can recite the Holy Bible, OT & NT, flawlessly in the World, not one person. But millions can the Qur’an, even Muslim children.

    Yes the Noble Qur’an is perfect to day as it was on the day it was first scribed.

  • ronmurp

    You forgot the LOL when you quoted me. But thank you for confirming how crazy Islam is.

  • El Cid

    No. I did not. Your lack of erudition, levity, frivolity and sarcasm was not lost on me.

    ” thank you for confirming how crazy Islam is.”
    Your braggadocio does not faze me for I know an intelligent educated person would not make such a charge without substantiating it. However you have the right to your opinion.

    You enjoy your trolling.
    Done.

  • El Cid

    Yes, I know that the Bible is authored by men. I also know of the many compilations and versions of the Bible. I have specifically studied the compilation of KJV. What men create, men can change.

    The Qur’an is the Word of God. Men cannot change it. It is the Handbook: Manual of Man by his Creator. Man has not the capacity to change it.

    That challenge is also explicitly stated in the Qur’an. All of humanity is invited to pick up the gauntlet.

  • ronmurp

    Quite right, it’s sometimes difficult to keep the frivolity in perspective when it comes to Islam: https://news.vice.com/article/family-of-afghan-woman-murdered-by-mob-says-she-was-devoted-to-islam-and-did-not-burn-the-quran

  • El Cid

    Mobs are not relevant. Crime of any kind is repulsive in Islam. And Muslims.

    If you have the ability to reference your opinion from the Qur’an then go ahead.

    Make your argument to backup your opinion. Don’t give me reading material as an alternative…keep it to yourself. News have no bearing on this discussion.

    Afghanistan has suffered from perpetual invasion for over 35years. I have been there.
    And you?

  • ronmurp

    No great challenge. Any book that contains claims about it’s own authenticity is suspect: http://ronmurp.net/2013/09/30/can-faith-ever-be-rational/#LiarsBible

  • ronmurp

    What’s the difference between a book written by a man with no supernatural inout and one dictated by god (first hand or second hand)? None that anyone can discern. Therefore the Quran is BS.

  • memike

    still no answer on who is to be crucified, per the command of the Koran? remember, the Koran is independent of your opinion. from Muhammad asad’s translation: 5:33 (or 5:34 for our ahmadi friends here) it is bu a just recompense for those who make war on allah and his messenger and endeavor to spread corruption on earth, that they be slain in great numbers, or CRUCIFIED in great numbers. or as a result of their pervasiveness have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides in great numbers. or being entirely banished from the face of the earth. ….blah blah blah…..
    so when is crucifying someone the proper punishment?

  • memike

    well el cid. you have hit the nail on the head with what is the greatest problem with islam. it is inflexible. unwavering in it’s brutality and draconian attitudes.

  • memike

    first I know a sunni Iranian who claims to have memorized the bible as well as the Koran. dr omid gul. second the Koran was changed under uthman. the moon and the sun vowels were added. that is why it is called uthman script.

  • El Cid

    “it is inflexible. unwavering in it’s brutality and draconian attitudes.”

    This is an absurd opinionated vent. Unless you can substantiate it, I will be forgiving and ignore it.

    However, there are couple of other statements that you have made, questions you have asked that become you and are worthy of my attention, interest and time. They have made me think. I will get to them.

    Unfortunately since you don’t have the necessary broad base of knowledge for a summarized response I will get to them in time.

    One is a judgment call…a tough one. The other has to be tackled with a preamble, step wise. I am considering the best way to make them understandable to you. In time I will.

    I am flattered by your interest and confidence in me to expect me to answer them… since I am not a scholar of Islam nor do I have a degree or experience as a judge in Islamic Jurisprudence.

    I simply apply my education and training outside of Islam…analytical tools with which I approach it without prejudice, fear or favor. As required by Allah Almighty.

    I look forward to answering them. Will get to them as soon as possible.

  • memike

    he didn’t say it was about apostasy. he said it was about offending Muhammad. the ones about apostasy are in the 84th book of bukhari. you know, the one entitled, ‘dealing with apostates’.
    so if 2:256 is as straight forward as you say, why do 100s of millions of muslims say you should be punished for leaving islam? why do Islamic scholars reveal in the fact that islam was spread by the sword.

  • memike

    you said that about other questions 6 months ago.
    don’t be too flattered, I expect everyone to answer questions put to them. unfortunately most muslims don’t. your girl ilisha is all over the board over on harry’s place.
    what do I need to step wise for? to avoid the hellfire? you know shirk is the one unforgivable sin.

  • memike

    sorry for the grammatical error: ‘its’.

  • memike

    no word on uthman script?

    check this out. this guy wants muslims to start reading a new Koran. he has the same theory about the current one as you do the hadiths, more or less.

    nton • 7 days ago

    With a lot of respect for Dr. Considine’s good intentions…..he needs to learn the difference between what the Prophet(Pbuh) taught and what groups such as the Saudia Arabian Wahabbi’s are following today. Wahabbism does not even resemble the original teachings of the Muhamad(Pbuh)) The Holy Quran was not “written down” during the life of the Prophet(Pbuh). Apparently, what was written down by his successors was a “Holy Quran” based upon supporting their dreams of “world conquest”. This is the Holy Quran that children are being “brain-washed” with today…even in polite American Muslim communities. Some wise and good Muslim persons have rewritten the Holy Quran….and removed all the hate teachings placed therein by the ambitious successors of the Prophet(Pbuh). I believe that today’s Muslim Peoples must accept this “revised Quran”….or leave the Islamic Religion altogether. If they do not do this, then we will see another thousand years of the Sunni and Shi’a Sects killing on another over who will be “top dog” in Islam. Both Saudi Arabia and Iran are hard at work (as well as the Muslim Brotherhood) to overthrow all democracies from within….while not allowing even a single piece of religious literature from Christianity or other religions to be distributed within their own nations. The nearest real interpretation of the teachings of the Prophet Muhamad(Pbuh) seems to be in the Sufi Muslim teachings. It is easy to see why Sufi Temples and Grave Monuments are often blasted down with explosives all over Islamic territories. Yes, we do have many, many good American (and other) Muslims in our world. Most are held in “mental dominance” though by tyrant Islamic Nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran. Since the Saudi’s award many major contracts to firms around the world….most world governments (largely elected by election campaign donations from “corporations”) do not expose Saudi Arabian and Iranian “Islam” for what they really are…or their intentions to come to dominate our world in the name of their distorted beliefs.
    http://www.tenton5.com see more 0

  • El Cid

    Your grammar does not bother me. Your confused unorganized thought process does.

  • El Cid

    “you said that about other questions 6 months ago.”
    I recall answering them. Many times I am unable to find your posts as they don’t register on my account. Disqus needs to fix that.
    “I expect everyone to answer questions put to them.
    You expect?
    I don’t owe you anything. This is a courtesy I have extended to you, as required of me by the Noble Qur’an…as long as you remain sincere, have interest and civil in your quest.

    Besides I have other interests and commitments. I have to find time, I have a life beyond the Internet takes up much of it.

    “what do I need to step wise for?”
    Not you, seems you have not read my post, but I, I have to explain to you stepwise because while you seem to have interest and curiosity…you don’t have the broad base of knowledge required so I can’t jump steps and expect you understand what I am talking about.

    Most people don’t even know how to read the Noble Qur’an and I don’t mean the language part but even in an English translation.

    “..to avoid the hellfire? you know shirk is the one unforgivable sin.”

    Hellfire is only for the very few. If you have caused hurt to another creature of Allah’s creation, human or animal, then unless that creature forgives you Allah will not forgive you.

    You have not committed Shirk as far as I know. In fact the denizens of Loonwatch have, as I have observed. That website is designed for the hypocrites and to fool others.
    It is not an Islamic website. That is only window dressing.

  • El Cid

    “No great challenge”
    Then meet it. People more gifted and educated than you have tried, for the last 1400years. You give it a shot too.

    “Any book that contains claims about it’s own authenticity is suspect”

    Had you read it as a unit and understood it then you would know that is only a preamble and a premise…which is then verifiable and authenticated in the empirical World. But you may not have the education, intellect, knowledge background to do so. As is obvious from the paucity of your posts, logic, thinking.

    The Holy Bible depends on circular argument, a logic fallacy, no doubt. The Noble Qur’an does not.

  • El Cid

    I don’t respond to abusive, vulgar, profane comments. They suggest your mentality. Not worth my time.

    Understand this, else don’t waste your time posting to me.

  • El Cid

    “or being entirely banished from the face of the earth. ….blah blah blah…..”

    Blah, blah, blah…!
    You ridicule and insult…or be frivolous about the Noble Qur’an then don’t expect me to respond. I think that was made clear to you earlier, as condition for my reply.

  • memike

    lol. what a cop out. you already haven’t replied 3 times to that question. the problem is you don’t know, or you don’t want to admit to the savagery of your religious law.

  • El Cid

    Cop out? From you? Don’t flatter yourself. I don’t have to respond to blasphemy, sacrilege and the profane.

    You mind your manner and language when you reference Noble Verses in comments to me if you want a reply from me. The Noble Qur’an discourages me from from commerce with the profane.

    Else, go to Loonwatch they are your type, your kind in Islam bashing and loose foul mouth.

    The Noble Qur’an may mean nothing to you. To me it is sacred. But you would not understand that concept.

  • El Cid

    You are all over the place. You lack focus.There is no coherence, little thought but plenty of confusion in your post. Nevertheless I will try to respond to some of the fallacies you have made, presented them as if true.

    #1. I have already posted the reasons to prove that the Qur’an is unchanging and authentic. You and your friends can write your own. It has been tried many times before in the past 1400years with zero effect on Muslim believe.

    There is more proof but a longer dissertation would not be appropriate for a Blog comment. You may want to do some reading on your own. A side effect may be a more disciplined mind, at least when you are not all boozed up. Yes, your inebriation and resulting aberrations are apparent in your posts…you may not be aware of it, though.

    Know this: Changing a single word in the Noble Qur’an is blasphemy, tantamount to Shirk.

    Not my problem though. Allah will take care of it as He has done with past attempted versions. Allah is Guardian over the Qur’an. Man is not.

    2#. “The Holy Quran was not “written down” during the life of the Prophet(Pbuh). Apparently, what was written down by his successors was a “Holy Quran” based upon supporting their dreams of “world conquest”.”

    Unsupported rubbish. Twisted meanderings of an uneducated Islamaphobe.

    3#. “The nearest real interpretation of the teachings of the Prophet Muhamad(Pbuh) seems to be in the Sufi Muslim teachings.”

    Sufi’s tend to deify Muhammad. A major sin amounting to Shirk. MuhammadPBUH was a messenger of Allah like others before him. No more no less than them except that he was the last.

    4#. Saudi Arabia is not Muslim though some Muslims do live there. Iran, the Shiaa, are borderline Heretics. The Ahamadia are non-Muslims, blaspheming against Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism and irrelevant in any discussion about Islam as are you, an Atheist.

    5#. Saudi Monarchs are not Muslims but are puppets of the US. I read their contractual agreement with the United States for a college paper.

    6#. The Saudis are well exposed. Israel, Saudi Arabia, under US umbrella, are now operating as a team to cause mischief in that region.

    #7. Saudi Arabia is demolishing and has bulldozed most of Islamic heritage, including Muhammad’s home, under the protection of the US. And built a Pagan Temple to the Moon god next to the Kaabba.

  • El Cid

    Dr. Omid Gul. Does not sound like an Iranian or Muslim name but a combination. MD or PhD?. Where is he located?

    “the moon and the sun vowels were added.”
    There are NO such vowels. You obviously have no idea of what you cut an paste, as if illiterate or on drugs?

  • memike

    tehrangeles. that is what they call the part of Los Angeles with all the Persians. I don’t recall what his doctorate is in? his website is guidedislam.com I think. something about guided islam. could be .net or org.
    he said he was descended from Persian jews. maybe gul isn’t very Persian then?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

    they aren’t called the moon and sun letters?

  • memike

    who are you quoting in number 2 and 3? and what does this have to do with who is to be crucified? please focus. who is to be crucified? you were right about one thing. I shouldn’t have blah blah blahed the rest of that verse. ‘such is there ignominy in this world…’ is a very important part of the rest of it.

  • memike

    true. I don’t understand the concept of sacred. nothing is sacred to me. no sacred cows safe from the slaughter.

  • HerrSkolly

    El Cid, I’ve one question for you. It stems from an article (OpEd probably), and I cannot find the source. Nonetheless, I had read some time ago (I’m not certain, but the author may have considered himself a Qur-anist – forgive my uncertainty) that portions of your Noble Book are essentially cemented through time, eternal – where other verses describe historical elements that apply specifically to those historical times and need not be applied to different eras, for they pertained to those historical eras alone. Are you familiar with this notion? I’m sorry that I cannot reproduce a reference for you; nonetheless, I would appreciate your perspective. Thanks.

  • HerrSkolly

    You and I have much in common – mmm … cheeseburgers. However, we have much that doesn’t align. Should someone, anyone, consider this-or-that sacred, where their consideration is not illegal in the nation in which they live, why should we impose ourselves and our beliefs upon them? To each his own.

  • El Cid

    “I shouldn’t have blah blah blahed the rest of that verse.”

    I take it as an acknowledgment and watered down apology. That is good enough for me. Perhaps you were trying to look tough and macho. Does not work with me.

    I took it as uneducated arrogance. Perhaps lack of schooling. Again that does not matter as you do ask questions that make me think, organize my thoughts and answer in a simple understandable form, no simple task.

    Here is what is done when a quote is long and unwieldy, at least in the educated sphere: You can start the quote, state what you want to say, then use […], you can if there is more add a bit more. Some simply use …, that is also some what acceptable.

    It is best to present your argument and back it with citation/reference. That is how it is done. One without the other weakens your argument. An unsubstantiated controversial opinion is just that, an opinion, unless coming from a recognized expert/professional.

    In any case I recognize you meant no harm. It takes a big man to apologize, and a bigger one to understand and accept it. Accordingly I will try and explain your referenced verse about the punishment of “crucifixion”. Stepwise and in context. As simply as I can.

  • El Cid

    “…nothing is sacred to me. no sacred cows safe from the slaughter.”

    …except that which is under your own skin. That is your sacred cow…on the block for slaughter when you take on a stranger, capabilities you know not and overestimate your own.

    That sir, is your sacred cow…always on the line when you arrogantly blather, bull in the china shop.

    There under his skin lies the Achilles heel of the Atheist. His sacred cow. Always vulnerable.

  • El Cid

    “the problem is you don’t know”
    What I know or don’t know is way beyond your capacity to fathom. I suggest you figure out your own problems rather project them on to others, people you don’t know.

    “…or you don’t want to admit to the savagery of your religious law.”

    Savagery of my religion?
    You Pot Kettle…illiterate. What do you know of it to make such a preposterous statement. What do you know of anything to make such an arrogant statement?

    Heck, what do you know of being an Atheist. Tell me what makes you an Atheist? Your illogical confused way of thinking…is that what qualifies you as an Atheist or do you have the ability to think it through? Can you think logically, rationally?

    Tell me about Time? Space? Eternity? Infinity? Spacetime Continuum? The Theory of Evolution? Special Relativity? Entanglement and the Quantum Universe?

    I could go on but rather suggest you practice in the kiddy pool…you can’t swim with the big boys.

  • memike

    right to each his own. yet it is muslims who wish to impose themselves and their beliefs on us.
    you can hold whatever you want to be sacred. where have I ever said you can’t or shouldn’t be allowed to? but make no mistake, islam is fascist in its nature. just look around the Islamic world. read the Koran. how far along are you?

  • memike

    lol. so when do you crucify someone?

  • memike

    you are rambling again el cid. stay calm. it’s a simple question. when do you crucify someone, ‘in this world’, per the ‘noble’ Koran?

  • El Cid

    You are the one rambling and ranting. Here is a caution to you. Remember you have a sacred cow. You are the bovine.
    .

    “when do you crucify someone, ‘in this world’, per the ‘noble’ Koran?”

    According to the Glorious Qur’an:
    You don’t.

  • El Cid

    “Ro Waseem is a Progressive Muslim blogger who wishes to offer a different narrative of Islam.”

    What is a “Progressive Muslim” anyway? Either you are a Muslim or you are not. Little bit pregnant…!

    In any case Ro Waseem has a poor understanding of the Qur’an or of the forces impacting Muslims at this time.

    However, he has a good understanding of which side his bread is buttered and wants cornflakes in the morning with his toast and coffee. Avoiding Gitmo seems to be his objective…not Islam. A pragmatist at best. A hypocrite, rather than a Truth Seeker, Believer, Muslim.

    Alternatively, has a low level intellect with poor analytical ability…but innocent of the above. Probably, likely a physical and moral weakling.

  • El Cid

    …harmless cartoons”

    That is matter of perception and perspective.

  • Munna

    Since Islam holds all the copyrights for giving the judgements without recourse and logic, hence people should avoid questioning the Islam followers as they aren’t Muslims, they are only followers. Point is to be noted that being followers of Islam is different while being Muslim is quite different. While a Muslim can’t do anything wrong ever, a follower of Islam is under no obligation to do anything right at all.

  • drawings are harmless. getting your feelings hurt is not equal to physically harming other people, Muslims who cannot understand this have no moral compass.

  • El Cid

    I am not talking about feelings. Where did I say anything about hurt feelings?

    “Perception and perspective” is what I said.

  • “Perception and perspective” don’t change the fact that drawings never hurt anybody.

  • El Cid

    All that you know and are aware of the World is a function of those. Only one who is totally blind, unthinking, and without empathy or compassion would miss that.

    Evolution is very selective about that.

  • ronmurp

    “People more gifted and educated than you have tried, for the last 1400years. You give it a shot too.”

    I just did. A book that claims its own authenticity cannot be relied on.

    “Had you read it as a unit and understood it then you would know that is only a preamble and a premise”

    Yes, the whole book is based on a false premise.

    “But you may not have the education, intellect, knowledge background to do so.”

    Maybe you don’t either. Maybe the Islamic scholars don’t and that’s why they make such elementary mistakes. These trite comments are not really providing any argument.

    “As is obvious from the paucity of your posts, logic, thinking.”

    Again, trite assertion, You do not show any logic at all, you do not refute anything I’ve said with evidence or reason. This empty rhetoric is common from Muslims that have no real evidence or reason to support a self-declared book, written by a man (and possibly others) with nothing to support its divine claims.

    “The Noble Qur’an does not [depend on circular argument].”

    Yes it does; or affirming the consequent, depending on how it is presented.

    1 – A book declares God
    2 – The book presents itself as evidence for that God
    3 – It requires an actually God for that to be true. Where do we find out about the God?
    4 – The book.

    This is a failure of philosophy 101.

  • memike

    Sahih International

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

    [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

    5:33 The punishment of those
    Who wage war against
    God And His Apostle, and strive
    With might and main
    For mischief through the land
    Is: execution, or crucifixion,
    Or the cutting off of hands
    And feet from opposite sides,
    Or exile from the land:
    That is their disgrace
    In this world, and
    A heavy punishment is theirs
    In the Hereafter;

    5:33 It is but a just recompense for those who make war on God and His apostle, 43 and endeavour to spread corruption on earth, that they are being slain in great numbers, or crucified in great
    numbers, or have, in result of their perverseness, their hands and feet cut off in great numbers, 44 or are being [entirely] banished from [the face of] the earth: such is their ignominy in this world 45 But in the life to come [yet more] awesome suffering awaits them

  • memike

    so how are cartoons ‘harmful’?

  • El Cid

    I have the original. What is your point?

    As I explained to you earlier, state your opinion/argument…back it by citing a reference if it is too esoteric or controversial.

    Got that. Now mind your language and make your point.

  • El Cid

    They are NOT cartoons. They are weapons of war. War by other means. The War on Islam imposed by the West on Muslim Civilization. They are part of the arsenal mustered against Islam and Muslims, globally.

    They are as much cartoons as a battle tank is a heap of metal…but much much more devious, deadly, insidious than any tank can ever be.

  • memike

    so the cartoons kill?
    you are a great example of the insanity that islam leads to.

  • memike

    my question is, when do you crucify someone? I don’t know how much more simple I can make it.

  • FeisalK

    Actually, only a few countries have this law against apostasy

    here’s a good – and progressive – article about that

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/quranalyzeit/2014/02/14/blasphemy-and-apostasy-laws-islam-or-hislam/

  • FeisalK

    And, as to your second question, here are the rules of war as laid out by the Prophet s.a.w

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/prophet-muhammads-rules-o_b_2169309.html

  • memike

    are you an ahmadi?

    as for Qasim Rashid accretion: “Prophet Muhammad is history’s first major figure to condemn collateral damage in word and deed.” sorry but that is not true. at least not 100% not true. yes he does say not to kill women and children and non-combatants. but, much like most people, he then contradicts himself. I think it is in the 19th book of muslim. ‘when asked about the killing of the polytheists’ women and children, Muhammad responded, “they are of them.”

    “The soldier implored Usama for amnesty just as Usama prepared to deliver the deathblow. Usama heard but ignored the plea and killed him anyway. Learning of this, Muhammad vociferously condemned Usama’s act as repulsive to Islamic rules of war.” funny, because after the battle of badr, Muhammad had the dwarf (what’s his name? Abdullah ibn mashud?) go among the injured pagans and finish them off.

    “You must not mutilate dead bodies” yet when ibn mashud brought Muhammad abu jahl’s head, he didn’t admonish him, but excepted it.
    and really, no cutting down or burning trees. true there are hadiths to that effect. and there are ones where Muhammad orders trees cut and burnt down. do you not know of the battle with the banu nadir?
    these are the half truths that muslims tell.

  • memike

    thanks but I already read that article. I’m well aquatinted with patheos.

    so please define a few for me. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/05/28/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/
    plus have you read the pew survey from 2014 on muslim beliefs. that is considered the most extensive poll ever conducted in the Islamic world. and the OIC has, twice now, called for an international blasphemy law.

  • El Cid

    And I gave you a shorter and simpler answer: “You don’t.”
    Maybe this repeat of it will get through at a more sober hour.

  • memike

    well the Koran seems to say you do.
    please explain the verse to me.

  • El Cid

    It does NOT say that. You don’t know how to read the Noble Qur’an.

    I am considering replying to you. Your chip on the shoulder, derogatory attitude of addressing the Qur’an however comes in the way.

    I have to weigh that…the requirement/obligation to explain the Scripture when someone is sincere and walk away from the one who is frivolous: Noble Qur’an.

    I am not obligated to the insincere, who think Islam is insanity and preemptively call the very person they are asking …crazy!

    Why would you want to ask questions from one you think crazy about a religion you think is insane? Is that not a comment on the state, the condition of your own mind

    I respect those who know how to respect others. You are not a woman. I don’t have to be gentle or considerate with you out of Islamic courtesy, required of a Muslim. Can easily take you down in any area of life with an arm behind my back. So back off. Don’t act the nut job.

    I am not impressed by profane speak, where the Noble Qur’an is concerned. All else is forgiven and matters not the least to me. Par for the course.

    Don’t flatter yourself. I have no interest or need to impose my belief on anyone, least of all on you. I am content, fulfilled and and at peace with it and myself. I have a full life, many things to do and commitments to meet. So make up your mind. And behave accordingly.

    Don’t play macho with me. And you will be fine. I will answer your question, eventually. Have many things to do first. I think you are way better than most of the Loonwatch crowd…so relax.

    Sorry if my delay has caused you inconvenience. There should be no hurry in these centuries old questions answered repeatedly, over again in time.

  • memike

    don’t worry about it el cid. your boy micheal elwood answered it for ya. he referenced a scholar I never heard of before. but pretty much said the same as Muhammad Asad. here for future reference:

    “Most of the classical commentators regard this passage as a legal
    injunction, and interpret it, therefore, as follows: “The recompense of those who make war on God and His apostle and spread corruption on earth shall but be that they shall be slain, or crucified, or that
    their hands and feet be cut off on opposite sides, or that they shall be
    banished from the earth: such shall be their ignominy in this world.” This interpretation is, however, in no way warranted by the text, and this for the following reasons:

    (a) The four passive verbs occurring in this sentence – “slain”, “crucified”, “cut off” and “banished” -are in the present tense and do not, by themselves, indicate the future or, alternatively, the imperative mood. (b) The form yuqattalu does not signify simply “they are being slain” or (as the commentators would have it) “they shall be slain”, but denotes – in accordance with a fundamental rule of Arabic grammar
    – “they are being slain in great numbers”; and the same holds true of the verbal forms yusallabu (“they are being crucified in great numbers”) and tuqatta’a (“cut off in great numbers”). Now if we are to believe that these are “ordained punishments”, it would imply that great numbers – but not necessarily all – of “those who make war on God and His apostle” should be punished in this way: obviously an inadmissible assumption of arbitrariness on the part of the Divine Law -Giver. Moreover, if the party “waging war on God and His apostle” should happen to consist of one person only, or of a few, how could a
    command referring to “great numbers” be applied to them or to him?
    (c) Furthermore, what would be the meaning of the phrase, “they shall be banished from the (d) Finally – and this is the weightiest objection to an interpretation of the above verse as a “legal injunction” -the Qur’an places exactly the same expressions referring to mass -crucifixion and mass -mutilation (but this time with a definite intent relating to the future) in the mouth of Pharaoh, as a threat to believers (see 7:124, 20:71 and 26:49). Since Pharaoh is invariably described in the Qur’an as the epitome of evil and godlessness, it is inconceivable that the same Qur’an would promulgate a divine law in precisely the terms which it attributes elsewhere to a figure characterized as an “enemy of God”

    In short, the attempt of the commentators to interpret the above verse as a “legal injunction” must be categorically rejected, however great the names of the persons responsible for it.

    On the other hand, a really convincing interpretation suggests itself to us at once as soon as we read the verse – as it ought to be read – in the present tense: for, read in this way, the verse reveals itself immediately as a statement of fact – a declaration of the inescapability of the retribution which “those who make war on God” bring upon themselves.
    Their hostility to ethical imperatives causes them to lose sight of all
    moral values; and their consequent mutual discord and “perverseness” gives rise to unending strife among themselves for the sake of worldly gain and power: they kill one another in great numbers, and torture and mutilate one another in great numbers, with the result that whole communities are wiped out or, as the Qur’an puts it, “banished from [the face of] the earth”. It is this interpretation alone that takes full account of all the expressions occurring in this verse – the reference to “great numbers” in connection with deeds of extreme violence, the “banishment from the earth”, and, lastly, the fact that these horrors are expressed in the terms used by Pharaoh, the “enemy of God”

  • El Cid

    “don’t worry about it el cid. your boy micheal elwood answered it for ya. he referenced a scholar I never heard of before”

    Okay. I am relieved. But he is not my boy. And he did not answer it for me. He answered it for you. Good for you. He is at your level of expertise and piety, or worse. You can now relax and bask in this ‘knowledge’.

    As far as I am concerned, it is gobbledygook rubbish. The Noble Qur’an is the only criteria, not some pedantic confused ‘scholar’ who can’t put a few coherent sentences together. These some scholars say all sorts of things…its their opinion, nothing more. They and you can have it. I am relieved.

    I stick with the Noble Qur’an: The Word of Allah Almighty, the Most Forgiving, Most Wise, Most Merciful.

    Peace be with you.

  • memike

    so when do YOU think someone should be crucified?

  • El Cid

    Why are you trolling me now? Have you not been answered by a scholar. I am no Islamic scholar. As I said you can now relax with the knowledge you have gained.

  • memike

    I want to know your opinion as to the true meaning of the Koran. as to when someone should be crucified. or why no one should be crucified?

    you said: “As far as I am concerned, it is gobbledygook rubbish.” so please tell me the non-rubbish interpretation?
    btw, I’m always relaxed baby-pop.

  • El Cid

    “btw, I’m always relaxed baby-pop.”

    Good for you. Then stay there, relaxed. You have had your explanation from a scholar and an expert. I am none of these.

    Religion has never been one of my subjects. My opinion does not count before that of scholars. And it matters not to me. My concern is only with the Truth. And with my Maker.

  • memike

    but you said the explanation was gibberish.

  • El Cid

    It seemed so to me. But you were consulting experts and scholars so I sensed who am I to interfere. Maybe they have it right. And I may not be.

    In any case one can tell the mental capability, the intellectual capacity, education, erudition, knowledge and motivation of a person from samples of his writing. And here I am not referring to grammar or spellings…though they too do matter and come in to the equation. The incoherence, confusion and logic deficit are the give away, the tell tale signs to look for. Even the Cut n Paste artist cannot overcome those.

    Further, I am just a person struggling to be true to myself in my belief. I have no axe to grind. I am no evangelist out to convince or convert anyone. I have nothing to prove…just a desire to know the truth. I am not an Islamic scholar…even though in education, training in other disciplines I may have an advantage over most.

    As I said, I have nothing to prove, have no need to put others down, especially those who may be in error but not confrontational with set purpose.

    With enemies of Islam, it is entirely different. And with the Hindoo, who have a visceral hate and blood lust for Muslims…all options are open. I don’t truck with the Hindoos, cultural Hindoos and Hindoolovers. Period.

    Atheists and Agnoistic are not enemies. In fact, in my opinion, the Agnostic belief is philosophically a logical one. The Agnostic thinks and is uncomfortable in his thoughts.The Atheist is not a thinker, is lazy…and relaxed.

    Please note that Islam does not have an evangelistic base or proclivity as in Christianity. All one can do as a Muslim is to set the record straight if someone is sincere in his search to know about Islam. And walk away from the profane, and the frivolous.

    On occasion I do counter those who set out with a mischievous purpose to malign Islam or Muslims just to ensure that their hate mongering propaganda campaign does not affect the innocent, the open and fair minded folk. They must know the agenda of hate and Psy-Ops in the context of the Global War on Islam.

    The War on Islam is being fought in the mind. The West has already found out that its mightiest armies and boots on the ground can not defeat a handful of Islamic Warriors in the battlefield, irrespective of the odds This war has just begun. Except for a handful, the vast majority of Muslims, over 1.5 billion have not engaged, as yet.

    The battle for the hearts and minds is a NO win for any other ideology, against Islam, in the World. Muslims may be tortured and slaughtered in the millions and their civilization devastated by invasions and invaders but Islam always wins in the end…the clumsy politics and naivete of Muslims notwithstanding.

  • memike

    do you believe in black magic?

  • HerrSkolly

    Thoughtful post, El Cid. For whatever impulsive reason, however, I should like to defend myself as a thinker (though perhaps no truly great thinker). I feel not lazy, nor often relaxed – in the parenting world, in the working world, in the thinking world. But, then, I am only one that falls under the umbrella “atheist”, quite often unable to relate to or agree with others whom might be considered my brothers and sisters in lack of faith.

  • memike

    are you saying you don’t follow the example of the great atheist kim jong un? how about Robespierre? Stalin maybe?

    still no word on the possibility that some of the Koran is n/a.

  • HerrSkolly

    Silly, you know I’m not all that good at following another’s lead. Personal observation and arrival at my own conclusions from my own experiences … guess I don’t follow well. I’m not a rebel, of course, just more influenced by my own will than by the wills of others.

  • memike

    so you follow no prophet of atheist thought? how in the world do you determine what is ethical? you don’t follow the will of god? how depraved you must be. no doubt you are a cancer on society. no wonder you can’t relax. 😉

  • HerrSkolly

    Good one, eh. Morality-wise, I had taken in what was taught me by my parents, of course. Yes, I’ve tweaked here or there, but I still align well with their guidance. The atheist prophets, Sam Harris, et al, provide me nothing of value. Provided I’m not a cancer on my own children’s livelihood, I don’t mind being the malignancy I may be elsewhere. 😉

  • El Cid

    ”I should like to defend myself as a thinker (though perhaps no truly great thinker).”

    Personal defense would be redundant. I did not have you in mind when I made that statement. I was referring to Atheistic Thought/Thinking, rather the lack there of, in general. Not about the thinking of anyone particular person. Least of all you, always a courteous gentleman I hold in high esteem and respect.

    Atheists by definition are not logical thinkers. A negative can not be proven for the simple logical reason that such a Null Hypothesis cannot be setup and tested…a fundamental requirement in inquiry, science and experimental design. This fact alone demolishes the Atheist’s Thesis and Premise, junks it permanently.

    ”I feel not lazy, nor often relaxed – in the parenting world, in the working world, in the thinking world.”

    I was not referring to laziness in the sense of physical management of life’s priorities. Parenting is not in my area of expertise as I am not married, yet. But to my thinking it should raise questions in a thinking persons mind.

    Where do we come from and where are we going? Is dust unto dust, all there is to it? Where did the first spark of life came from and what is it anyway? Where does the universe end…does it go on forever? What is forever? Is the ‘Arrow of Time’ unidirectional as observation seems to suggest or reversible as in math’s relativity/time equations and by the pairing/mirror/reversal concept postulated, and threads through, in the Glorious Qur’an?

    As I said I was not thinking of you when I wrote that. It was not a criticism of you personally whatsoever. I had the general mental makeup of Atheists in mind. To ignore, deny, not confront or be perturbed by the fundamental questions facing humanity through the ages is mental sloth.

    I was being gentle. It could be a fallout of other aspects of an escapist life style…hedonism, mental paralysis, or anesthesia of thought brought on by many factors in ones life style and environment: Excess food/overeating, drugs, meds, alcohol, casual sex, lack of Nature/danger/threats…what have you.

    Again, this is not about you. Not questioning that you work hard, make an excellent parent and are a good person. A rare one, perhaps the only one on Loonwatch who does not use profanity, guile, arrogance, deceit, lies, ad hominem and hypocrisy as argument and defense.

    Your sins, if any, are of omission, not of commission. Sitting on the fence. Bending backwards not to offend some, consequently offending others, unintended consequences, by default.

    Most of all you have no inferiority complex, not secretive and not vindictive…all defining characteristic of the denizens and of Loonwatch itself.

    ”But, then, I am only one that falls under the umbrella “atheist”, quite often unable to relate to or agree with others whom might be considered my brothers and sisters in lack of faith.”

    True, very much so. And I am not for collective allegation, indictment or punishment…with the exception of the Hindoos, who have no saving grace.

    [PS: While responding to your post which came on my Email account, checked my dashboard, noticed that you have another question waiting for me. I apologize for the inadvertent delay. Will try and be more regular in looking at the backlog.

    Have been busy taking on the HindooSlumDogs on a Pakistani Website which is much too generous with its freedom of speech and hospitable platform based on the honor system where anyone can post anything and delete anything…all based on the Honor system of Muslims.

    The HindooSlumDogs go there, post unbelievable obscenities and delete all Muslim argument they are unable to counter…as ordered and organized by MadDogModi. They are on hourly wages on Indian Government issued keyboards. Hindoos have no honor and no scruples whatsoever].

  • El Cid

    No. Why do you ask?

  • memike

    I was curious if you believed in magic. a lot muslim believe in black magic. especially Pakistanis. are you not Pakistani? plus there is a lot of concern about jinn in the Koran. some say that 55:56, is proof of jinn can have sex with human females. ‘those who men and jinn have not touched’. or sometimes translated as, ‘have not gone in’.

  • El Cid

    “there is a lot of concern about jinn in the Koran”

    There are number of mentions. I have seen no concern there. Jinns are not magic. In Islam, in the Noble Qur’an, there are three major animated creations: Humans made out of water and earth; Jinns made out of ‘smokeless fire’, some sort of electrical energy; and Angels, made out of light.

    I don’t see the concern. Humans are superior to Angels and Jinns. Only Humans and Jinns are given ‘Free will’. Angels have NO free will and have to do as commanded. Human and Jinns are NOT constrained by Divine Command. They have been given ‘Free Will’.

    There is NO such thing as a ‘Fallen Angel’ in Islam, as is believed in Christianity. Angels cannot fall as they, by definition, cannot disobey a Divine Command. Christianity is full of contradictions, big and small.

    The Holy Bible, written by a multitude of men, updated and redacted by others, is thus in conflict by itself…as a result of conflicting authorship, the exegesis and eisegesis of time and temperament.

    Satan, of Christianity, is a Fallen Angel. Shataan or Iblis of Islam is not a fallen angel. He is a disobeying Jinn, exercising his free will to chose to do so. He affects human behavior through ‘Whispers of the Mind’.

    He enters through doors opened for him by greed, jealousy & envy, lust, alcohol, hate, and such, not some magic from the outside…but these whispers of the mind.

    That is why Muslims call him the ultimate beguiler as he operates inside the mind, not attack from the outside as the Devil of Christianity…a magical mythological fictitious being. The Devil does not exist. The Evil is in Man.

    A mind that opens doors, above, invites him in. When push comes to shove, as protection against superstition — mischievous fearful thoughts that make the psyche vulnerable to innuendo, rumor, suggestion and guile — there is no better preventive then the short Surahs113 and 114.

    Personally, of all creation, I’d be more concerned by other humans and their antics. Jinns concern me not. I have never met one and can remove him with a single thought or a minor protective prayer if I ever come across a malevolent one who dared cross my path. No worries there for a Muslim. There is NO such thing as the Devil, of Christianity, in Islam.

    “some say that 55:56, is proof of jinn can have sex with human females. ‘those who men and jinn have not touched’. or sometimes translated as, ‘have not gone in’.”

    Not so. It is referring to Jinns. Humans and Jinns have the sinners and the pious among them, as is clear from other passages in the Qur’an.

    They too have a place in the Hereafter. Angels and Jinns are another life form,altogether, not species of animals. There is NO cross over. The passage is referring to spiritual beings, Hoors, which are different for Jinns and Humans. Hoor are NOT flesh and blood beings but only a way of explanation that the mortal mind can relate to.

    As for sex, a biological need, it is not applicable as such in the Hereafter, except that certain passages do point to the fact that it can be conjured up. And that families and loved ones will be brought together in harmony, with all rancor set aside.

  • El Cid

    What you have presented #1 to #4 is a circular argument. A logic Fallacy: That is a description of the Holy Bible.

    It does not fit the Glorious Qur’an. The Qur’an does NOT present itself as the only and sufficient evidence of God. It does not present itself in that circular manner. That is what the Bible does.

    The Noble Qur’an presents itself as the Message from God to Humanity. And suggests that Man seek evidence outside of it to accept or deny it. It invites, challenges, even provokes that Man do so with knowledge, research, experimentation, travel and erudition.

    You are either deliberately conflating the two, the Bible and the Qur’an, or are simply ignorant of the texts. I have read both, many times. You seem not to have.

  • El Cid

    Seems memike’s post was tongue in cheek. Trying to have fun with you. Good poker face reply, though.

  • ronmurp

    “The Noble Qur’an presents itself as the Message from God. And suggests that Man seek evidence outside of it to accept or deny it.”

    Same thing. First, declaring it is a message from God contains the implicit assumption that there is a God. Then. in challenging people to deny the Quran, and then asserting their challenges are wrong, is simply shifting the same error outside the Quran. In doing that a Muslims is then able to say, “Look, you could not challenge the Quran, therefore it is true.”

    The challenge isn’t for anyone to show how the Quran is wrong, but for Muslims to show there is a God in the first place, one that would deliver such a message by the means of a messenger and the resulting book, the Quran. Nobody has ever done that.

    I’ve read both. But now you tell me that doesn’t matter, because the evidence that the Quran is true is outside the Quran. In that case I shouldn’t even need to read the Quran. I should be able to assess this external evidence and then simply accept the Quran without even reading it.

    So, where’s this external evidence to support its claims?

  • memike

    [55.54] Reclining on beds, the inner coverings of which are of silk brocade; and the fruits of the two gardens shall be within reach.
    [55.55] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
    [55.56] In them shall be those who restrained their eyes; before them neither man nor jinni shall have touched them.

    yes I know the difference in mythology between Lucifer and Iblis.

    [38.71] When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:
    [38.72] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.
    [38.73] And the angels did obeisance, all of them,
    [38.74] But not Iblis: he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers.

    you have never meet the jinn that has been assigned to you?

    so you aren’t familiar with the great Islamic scholar Taqî ad-Dîn Aḥmad ibn Taymiyyah?

  • memike
  • memike

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBsPZV14I-k&noredirect=1

    so still no answer to herr skolly’s question on parts of the Koran no longer being applicable? or did I miss it?

  • Theysowrong

    Thou shall NOT kill.

  • Theysowrong

    When a Muslim(or anyone else for that matter,except in self defence) kills a human being that God has created & given life to.They are in fact,placing themselves in the place of God! No one has the right to take it upon themselves to chose when&how a person should die? That is Gods place ONLY. With the exception of self-preservation of themself,or the lives of those they have God given authority to protect.

  • Theysowrong

    There are No tickets to Heaven.No amount of murders to commit to “earn” a free pass. Not enough good works to do to get there. Not even enough money to pay,as if He needed your money? You can’t get clean enough or good enough to stand before a Holy God?! There is only one way-to have your sins covered & paid for by the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ who gave himself for the Whole World.

  • El Cid

    “so the cartoons kill? “

    Words can kill. As can cartoons. They can also heal. Guns can be used to kill, but also to defend, protect, hunt and feed. Don’t confuse the tool with the intent behind it, in its use.

    Cartoons can make you laugh but have also been used as a prelude…conditioning of the mind to genocide. Even to enslavement, dehumanization of the Other.

    And on to holocaust on the Other. And as evidenced as a conditioning for the Jewish Holocaust. A pity that the Zionists are trying the same techniques the Nazi and the Christiana tested on them.

    And the Americans justifying Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Because they were Japs! And Geeks ! The greatness crimes against humanity, in history, justified with words and cartoons.

    The Muslims are the New Jews: Rag heads. Towel heads. Mud slime. Mud Niggers. What have you. Sudden silence when they face a white Muslim.

    Followed by Racist Cognitive Dissonance : Embarrassment and discomfiture, silence when they learn that Muhammad was White. That Muslims come in all colors and race. That many Arabs are white. As are 10% of Paks: Blue green eyes. Carrot, blond even platinum hair.

    “you are a great example of the insanity that islam leads to.”
    Standard argument of the dimwitted who has none to offer. Make your point. Cite and reference.

    An ad hominem is not a sane argument. You identify yourself as dimwitted, borderline insane when you try that on for size.

  • PL-LT Commonwealth

    Fundamentalist “Muslims” reflect the Quraysh in much the same way that Fundamentalist “Christians” reflect the Pharisees or the Roman Empire: they persecute those who do not agree with them, they live their lives by archaic laws, they pick and choose so they can doscriminate more easily, they interpret scriptures literally as if they believed that figuratuve language is nonexistent and they either absorb or demonise other ways of thought.

    If there is a heaven, the way to get there is to lead a righteous life: respect the rights, choices and opinions of others, do not act with malice, help the poor and unfortunate in any way you can, speak out against the amoral and remember that nature is not to be taken for granted and will always be important to our lives. The Neanderthal Humans invented the firsr religion (Animism) to help them achieve this and if it wasn’t for them there would likely only be seven or eight MILLION humans on Earth today.

    Religion is a tool to help you lead a righteous life. A metaphor to be interpreted in context, with hindsight and a wise mind. The religion not being universally accepted as the truth does not invalidate it because a religion does not even need to be believed by the MAJORITY. It is not science. And it is not a rulebook for your life. That’s morality. Religion is there to tell you which path to take when you’re lost or unsure.

    But hey, what do I know? I’m just a pro-religious progressive aetheist liberal male feminist who supports gay rights. Go on, Fundamentalists. Call me a heathen, a blaspheming infidel. Tell me I’m going to hell. I’ll be sure to ask for you once I get there.