Trust, control, permission, consent

Trust, control, permission, consent January 28, 2013

Civility is a great friend of the status quo.”

“As a thought exercise, how many predators would have to be on the team before you’d no longer feel like cheering?”

“please, let’s stop saying ‘we let women lead’ and ‘i just feel like one of the guys’ and start living out a new story, together.”

“It’s a ‘nice’ form of dehumanization, but it’s still dehumanization nonetheless.”

I’ve passed her on the stairs many times, but never knew her history until I read this post.

“Who owns and control’s one’s body, especially when it comes to women: is it the individual herself or the community, through enforced practices of honor, virginity, veiling, and marriage?” (via)

“It is not their talking points that are the problem, it’s the beliefs that inform the talking points that are the problem.”

“The problem isn’t the wisdom of this advice; the problem is that this advice is necessary.”

“Oh, how I missed the certainly, the simplicity, the assurance that if you just follow the recipe, your life and family will turn out beautifully.”

Better fathers and husbands means men abandoning male privilege and outdated gender roles.”

“For the authorities at our evangelical camp, a paradigm of sexual ethics that even acknowledges consent is seen as ‘watered down’ or ‘less biblical’ since it’s diverging from the typical Protestant stance on sexual relationships: no sex before marriage. Period. End of conversation.”

“At the moment the numbers are small, and they tend to keep fairly quiet about their change of heart, but the change is beginning.”

“The percentage of Americans who believe homosexuality is a sin has decreased significantly over the past year.”

“It’s time for the baptized to claim the priesthood of that baptism and to stand up, shake the dust off their sandals, and abandon a church where its hierarchy practices apartheid.”

“If I signed this, it would be a betrayal not only of myself but of my fellow priests and lay Catholics who want change.”

“As the Episcopal Bishop of Rhode Island, I support the bill before the General Assembly that would allow same-sex couples to marry in our state, not in spite of my Christian faith, but because of it.”

“The only excuse I have is that somewhere, in the back of my brain, I know that it is more repulsive in some evangelical circles for a woman to sound Marxist than to say the word penis.”

“They clearly didn’t believe us. They didn’t trust us.”

“Our moral goal should be to struggle against those real barriers — poverty, racism, and anti-female cultural oppression — that prevent authentic choice from being a reality for every woman.”

“Women have been arrested, institutionalized, or subjected to unwanted medical interventions due to their pregnancies.”

“I will never understand why people who hate abortion don’t love Planned Parenthood and tithe to it like it was their church, because they have prevented more abortions than all the fire-and-brimstone preachers on the planet combined.”

“It’s a bit of a relief that Bryant abandoned the pretense of giving a damn about women’s health. And a bit more of that kind of candor will also perhaps inhibit judges from taking such pretenses seriously.”

“Even if Roe survives as before and the wave of anti-choice state legislation flowing from the 2010 Republican landslide retreats, we still have to come to grips with the fact that a significant if decisively outnumbered minority of Americans, for reasons ranging from religious doctrine to fear of women’s sexuality, view or claim to view legalized abortion as a ‘Holocaust,’ and themselves as akin to the anti-Hitler resistance.”

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  • Austinkitty

    Hi guys, long time no see. I want Fred to know thatDavid Wong of says in today’s lead post that Slacktivist is David’s favorite blog in the world.

    Karen ( because Disqus has amnesia about me)

  • Hi guys, long time no see. I want Fred to know thatDavid Wong of says in today’s lead post that Slacktivist is David’s favorite blog in the world.

    I was reading that on my phone on the train, so I didn’t have a mouseover preview.  Still, from the subject of the article and the way the sentence was composed I just knew that I’d click on it and be at Slacktivist.

    EDIT: Interestingly enough, the article in question would be apropos to this blog post.

  • hidden_urchin

    Still, from the subject of the article and the way the sentence was composed I just knew that I’d click on it and be at Slacktivist.

    Me too! I then scampered over here to say something but y’all beat me too it.

    Anyway, it made my morning to see Fred get such a nice shout-out.

  • Carstonio

    Without having read Jacobson’s book, the term “honor culture” appears to describe how the concept of honor is mostly a rationalization of patriarchy. A woman’s body in such a culture might theoretically “belong to and serve the community,” but in practice the ownership and benefit belongs to the father or husband. I strongly suspect that the patriarchy came first and the specific type of honor arose later, and I’m curious to know if Jacobson agrees.

  • Hexep

    Even the most patriarchal of patriarchies has to deal with patriarchs occasionally fighting other over where they’re going to graze their sheep, or something. Mongols, for instance, have a very well-developed honor culture (as in, steal my shit and I chop your feet off), but Mongol women are highly emancipated by Asian standards, both traditionally and in their modern society – certainly compared to the more settled Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans. 

    Patriarchs can’t just worry about women’s bodies 24/7. They also have to worry about the young men who fancy themselves patriarchs, and that means worrying about their sheep.

  • Victor

    (((“well, i don’t feel unequal, i feel like i’m just one of the guys.”)))

    Hey Fred did ya know that some wo man, “I” mean woman honestly believe that they are really “MAN”!

    I hear ya sinner vic! So true if ya believe in Adam and Eve!

    Go Figure! Mama and Papa


  • LL

    It’s worth noting (because I don’t often see it emphasized) that the person who prevailed in the Roe v. Wade decision (other than women in general) was a woman, a 26-year-old attorney, who got a 7-2 decision back when the Supreme Court was all male (and would be for another 8 years). So, thanks, Sarah Weddington. 

  • Carstonio

    Honor is about social standing, so I’m not sure how that would apply in a grazing culture. Unless you’re suggesting that grazer who has his sheep stolen loses face among his peers.  The honor I’m talking about is where a woman’s sexual activity outside of marriage brings dishonor to the family.

  • Cathy W

    They both kind of come down to “the ability to hold on to what’s yours and retaliate if someone steals from you” – the difference being whether “your daughter’s virginity” counts as yours or not.

  • Victor

     ((( The honor I’m talking about is where a woman’s sexual activity outside of marriage brings dishonor to the family.)))

    Come on NOW! We’re in “The Twenty First Century” and anything goes foe wo man, I mean woman as long as “IT” feels good. Is that not right Victor?

    STOP “IT’ sinner vic cause me, myself and i no longer want to troll with ya anymore NOW!

    To late Victor! :(

    Go figure!



  • LL

    That Jenny Rae Armstrong link led me to another that is also very interesting and pretty relevant to the others here (vis a vis gender and relations between men and women):

  • stardreamer42

    From the first linked article, talking about reasons offered for the Religious Left not taking strong moral stances:
    “Leftist voters are not religious.” This is patently
    false. Much has been made over the growing number of “nones” in America –
    people unaffiliated from any religious tradition – and the overwhelming
    percentage of those who vote Democratic. But to be unaffiliated with
    any faith group is not the same as being deaf to a moral argument, or
    even a theological one.

    Furthermore, that argument is effectively fungible with “you can’t have morals without religion” (aka Christianity).


  • AnonaMiss

    Oh my gosh David Wong may have read my comments o_O;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    I saw Shaenon Garrity post on the old Typepad comments thread once too

    Is Slacktivist some kind of internet salon where the internet awesomesauce gather and pwn?

    And if so why do I/we even bother to participate in comment threads? (UNLESS ONE OF YOU IS SECRETLY ONE OF THEM)

    brb fangirling out

  • I think this is why honor cultures tend to prevail more in societies that have fixed wealth, such as semi-agricultural or agricultural societies.

  • Hexep

    My understanding of ‘honor culture,’ as it’s used in some circles, is the idea that in societies based on herding livestock, people have to develop a sense of ‘honor’ – of willingness to retaliate viciously against injury or insult – because of how precarious their livelihoods were. Settled cultures, where wealth was dependent on land, could rely on the rule of law to settle things in a slower yet fairer way; you can’t steal land like it was shoplifting. A herd of goats, on the other hand, is definitely steal-able, and the best incentive these cultures found to keep people from stealing each other’s sheep was to just be ready to kill.

    I can see a lot of troubles ultimately stemming from that decision, to adopt a mindset of, ‘if you make trouble with me, I’ll murder you,’ and – as Cathy W has already said – control of female relatives was almost certainly part of that.I’ve heard it said that this is part of the reason why the American South has such troubles; there’s a much larger penetration of Scots-Irish cultural heritage there, carrying with it the attendant needs of a sheep-herding culture.

  • If they’d stop worrying about women, they’d have more time to look after their sheep.

  • Victor

    (((And if so why do I/we even bother to participate in comment threads? (UNLESS ONE OF YOU IS SECRETLY ONE OF THEM) ))))


    STOP “IT” sinner vic! What are ya on NOW?

    Sorry Victor :(

    Go Figure folks!? :)


  • Austinkitty

    And in considerably less pleasant matters than my last link, there is this.


  • Also from the first link:

    Since the rise of the religious right in the 1970s in reaction to the Supreme Court ruling on Roe v. Wade, …”

    Alas, as Fred has demonstrated in previous posts, this is a common misunderstanding of events within living memory, but it’s a convenient one for a religious right embarrassed by its origins in the opposition to de-segretation.  It’s nevertheless the accepted conventional wisdom in the greater culture.

  • Victor

    (((Alas, as Fred has demonstrated in previous posts,)))

    Hey Fred has demonstrated just about every thing in his previous post NOW!


    Oh nothing sinner vic!

    Good then we might let some of your feminin cells join our new religion cause we like

    Go figure NOW! :)


  • *horror-struck*

    That guy seems to have no understanding of what translation is. (And he also makes me want to destroy things. Many things. Starting with his face.)

  • Carstonio

    Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers discusses how the South inherited that aspect of Scots-Irish culture, with eye contact being, uh, viewed as more provocative than in the North. Apparently herd theft was common enough that neighbors can to be viewed with suspicion. And when such cultures view women as property, it would be natural for fathers and husbands to transfer that suspicion to other men.

    The part that I see as rationalization is in transferring the suspicion to the women themselves. Officially the status of human females was hardly better than that of herd animals, yet males knew damn well that females were capable of choice. Shaming female sexuality may have been the males’ way of soothing their consciences. Similar to how antebellum slaveowners told themselves that slaves weren’t really human.

  • It would be more correct to say that the Religious Right arose to prominence in the 1970s amid perceptions of social and moral breakdown, which could be ‘coded’ to lay the blame at the feet of people of color because they were trying to seek equality.

    Of course all the other usual suspects got trotted out then, too. They used to constantly blame sexual permissiveness and other “wild social experiments” of the 1960s.

    In fact, for a while, innovative new projects in the school system had to be rear-guarded with a “in contrast to the experiments of the 1960s…”

    As one example, for a time in some high schools in that era they let you avoid coming to class if you had an A and in some extreme cases you could even miss the final exam and take your A on your homework only.

    When, 20 years later, high schools were reintroducing the possibility of allowing students from grades 9 to 11 to miss their final exams with “A” grades in their coursework, the teachers were very careful to disassociate it from the “wild untrammelled experiments” (not their exact words, but the sense was there) of the 1960s, in particular emphasizing that attendance in classes was still mandatory.

  • Hexep

    I guess they thought that if they slipped anywhere, their rep would collapse.

  • Victor

    (((And when such cultures view women as property, it would be natural for fathers and husbands transfer that suspicion to other men. )))

    Carstonio for what “IT” is worth any “MAN” who truly believes that a woman is a chatel can kiss my Annoying Super Sinners cells if ya know what “I” mean?

    I hear ya sinner vic! That’s only because you sold real estate in the early mid seventies and know what the word “Chatels” means Victor.

    WHATEVER sinner vic!

    God Bless your soul Dad.


  • “It all boils down to whether or not the Republican Party thinks this is a problem,” she said. “If they want to make inroads with women, then they need to subject every one of their candidates to sensitivity training — not to mention reality training.”

    (emphasis mine)

    I think that this is a fabulous idea and I wholeheartedly support it.  Yes, there is a lot of common sense stuff about rape, i.e. do not talk about it except to sympathize with the victims and act to help ensure fewer people are victimized in the future.  But more than anything else, the reality-training will be the thing which actually corrects “the beliefs that inform the talking points” in the first place.  

  • Austinkitty

    Same here, or at least get his wife drunk. I’d love to hear her uncensored opinion of living witha man who thinks all women are inferior to all men.

  • Austinkitty

    Same here, or at least get his wife drunk. I’d love to hear her uncensored opinion of living witha man who thinks all women are inferior to all men.

  • For the sake of making it easy for people to find, the David Wong article in question is “5 Ways You’re Accidentally Making Everyone Hate You“, and Slacktivist is mentioned as his favourite blog in the world at the end of the article (in point 1, as Cracked articles count down).


  • Random_Lurker

    As an archer, seeing that picture makes me wince in pain.

    Archers, especially female ones, should not shoot bows while shirtless. Ouch.

    I suppose I should go read the article now, but wow is that distracting.

  • reynard61

    “Is Slacktivist some kind of internet salon where the internet awesomesauce gather and pwn?”


  • I really, really dislike conflating the word honor with ideology of jealous ownership. The entire society works because people implicitly trust others to honor the basic rules and other people. Can we please find some other word for those “your body belongs to me” type of crap?

  • If they’d stop worrying about women, they’d have more time to look after their sheep.

    Practically every sheep-herding culture except the Jews have been accused of not seeing any difference between the two. Or preferring the latter to the former.

  • Given how long I’ve been seeing articles about ‘honor killings’ I think that ship has long since sailed. 

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    NIV translations are owned by News Corp?

    (Haven’t made it past the first sentence and I’m incredulous)

  • Rakka

     Never too late to change the future.

  •  That’s only because it’s been a very very long time since the Jews were known for sheep-herding and animal husbandry in general. If memory serves, Joseph Heller makes a joke or two along those lines in God Knows, a satirical memoir of King David. If the Jews had not been expelled from Israel and had remained pastoral, there would probably be comedy routines about the connexion between Jew-fros and lamb fleece.

  • Carstonio

    Jacobson appears to use the word ironically, and that’s how I was using the word. I repeat that honor is fundamentally about social standing, and so is its opposite, which is shame. The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn ranks among the best fictional refutations of that concept of honor. You’re talking about the social contract, which is a newer and different concept.

  • Carstonio

     The first time I heard of that alleged use for animals, I thought someone had made that up as a joke, just to get a reaction. Today I still have difficulty understanding how someone would even think it’s a good idea.

  •  I don’t think social contract as in “don’t backstab people of your group” is particularly new concept. We are a cooperative species after all, or we wouldn’t have made it. What is considered “your group” varies by time and culture, of course, but I think we’re talking about the same thing. I think honor and reputation of honesty is the best guarantee for social standing in any culture. Going back on your word brings you shame, as does siding with percieved out-groupers against the in-group.

    But need to go bake now.

  • Carstonio

    The social contract involves an exchange between the individual and the state, where one takes on responsibilities in exchange for protection of rights. And yes, this has roots in the fact that we’re a cooperative species. My point is that the concept of social standing probably does more harm than good. It values actual honesty less than the appearance of honesty. The US South’s version of the “honor culture” enabled whites there to express racism through dog whistles, enabling them to deny being overtly racist. Don’ t focus on the generic meaning of the word honor – focus on what sociologists mean by “honor culture” and how that works in practice.

  • The NIV is property of Biblica, which licenses the use to Zondervan Publishing, which is owned by HarperCollins, which is, in turn, is owned by News Corporation.

    So News Corporation owns the rights to publish the NIV, but they don’t actually own the translation.