Is Veneration Of The Saints And Virgin Mary Idolatrous?

I recently watched a series of videos by Dr. Jordan Cooper, a Lutheran theologian and YouTuber, concerning the Catholic practice of venerating (praying to) the Saints and the Virgin Mary. Dr. Cooper considers this practice unbiblical and a historical accretion into Christianity via Roman pagan syncretism. In this article, I lay out the Catholic practice of venerating the Saints and the Virgin Mary and address Dr. Cooper’s criticisms. As an added layer of analysis, my Protestant friend Matthew Graham agreed to do a written exchange on this topic. He will address my points and then offer his own points, all of which I will post on this blog.

Criticisms First

What Does Scripture Teach?

To begin this discussion, we must first look at Dr. Cooper’s criticisms. The best (and most concise) video that sums up Dr. Cooper’s position is: A Response to Arguments for the Invocation of Saints. In this video, he responds to the Catholic “go to” passages in Scripture that support Saint veneration. Specifically, he cites the Transfiguration, Jesus on the cross crying “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”, and the heavenly saints in the book of Revelation offering God the prayers of the saints on earth. Of all three examples, Dr. Cooper thinks the last one presents the greatest potential. This verse states:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Revelation 5:8)

This verse clearly states that some saints (the twenty-four elders) in heaven offer the prayers of the saints to the Lamb as incense. Moreover, he also thinks that the idea of a relationship with saints in heaven and on earth presented in Revelation does not present an issue, as those in heaven live now in Christ.

Catholics Cross the Line into Idolatry

Dr. Cooper’s main issue concerns the indistinction between the kind of prayers to the Saints and the Virgin Mary and prayers to God. He contends that Catholics cross the line into idolatry in their prayers and veneration of the Saints and Virgin Mary. What started out as legitimate respect and honor of holy people and martyrs in the early Church, Catholics made these special individuals into demi-gods and a God substitute. Drawing comparison to the bronze serpent in the Old Testament, he states:

What you find with almost any of these ideas that develop is that it starts off with good intentions, as something that is trying to express a truth that is biblical. Then it slowly gets distorted to the point where it was in the late Middle Ages that made the Reformation a necessity because things got so corrupt in so many ways.

Furthermore, he goes on to anecdotally state that we ought not think it surprising that Christians eventually abused the good of honoring and respecting the Saints and Virgin Mary because as humans, “that is what we do.” Dr. Cooper acknowledges that “official” Catholic teaching condemns Marian and Saint worship. However, he also thinks the Catholic distinctions between prayer and worship of God (latria) and prayer and veneration of the saints (dulia) and Virgin Mary (hyper-dulia)* are distinctions without a difference.

The Catholic Position

The Council of Trent

First, the Church understands and acknowledges that abuses occurred in the Middle-Ages. In fact, the Council of Trent addressed the Saint and Virgin Mary issue directly in the Twenty-Fifth Session. Drawing from the Second Council of Nicaea, the council declared:

Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints are to be placed and retained especially in the churches, and that due honor and veneration is to be given them; not, however, that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them by reason of which they are to be venerated, or that something is to be asked of them, or that trust is to be placed in images, as was done of old by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by means of the images which we kiss and before which we uncover the head and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ and venerate the saints whose likeness they bear.

Here, the Council fathers draw a direct distinction between the pagan hope placed in idols and the Christian practice that seeks to honor the person in whom an image represents a prototype of a real person and not an idol. Moreover, any discovery of abuses that arise, the council demands swift action.

If any abuses shall have found their way into these holy and salutary observances, the holy council desires earnestly that they be completely removed, so that no representation of false doctrines and such as might be the occasion of grave error to the uneducated be exhibited.

And:

Furthermore, in the invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, all superstition shall be removed, all filthy quest for gain eliminated, and all lasciviousness avoided, so that images shall not be painted and adorned with a seductive charm, or the celebration of saints and the visitation of relics be perverted by the people into boisterous festivities and drunkenness, as if the festivals in honor of the saints are to be celebrated with revelry and with no sense of decency.

Again, the Church still holds to the above declarations of Trent.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

The Catechism reflects the summation of the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Any honest seekers ought to first look here for what the Church teaches. Concerning Marian veneration, the Catechism states:

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs…. This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary. [emphasis added]

Concerning the Saints, it states:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is. [emphasis added]

Notice that in both instances, the Church differentiates between adoration (worship) reserved for God alone and the veneration given to the Saints and Virgin Mary. Therefore, according to Church teaching, Catholics worship God alone. Likewise, the Church condemns and forbids all abuses and superstitions related to the veneration of the Saints and Virgin Mary.

Final Thoughts…

In the multiple videos about the veneration of the Saints, Dr. Jordan Cooper’s main concern, besides any substantial Scriptural support, comes down to his belief that Catholics cross the line into idolatry when they venerate, honor, and pray to the Saints and the Virgin Mary. He also understands the desire of early Christians to honor examples of heroic Christian witnesses, especially the martyrs. However, his primary evidence, since official Catholic teaching forbids and condemns idolatry, boils down to “that is what we do,” as humans. Humans, according to Dr. Cooper, always take things, even good things, too far.

Therefore, just as the Hebrews took the good bronze serpent and eventually worshiped it, Catholics took the good honor and respect given to the Saints and Virgin Mary and turned it into idolatry. It does not seem to matter to Dr. Cooper that the Church officially denies this claim.

So, I guess the reader must decide. Do you believe Dr. Jordan Cooper or the Catholic Church?

What do you think?

*Helpful Definitions

Latria: the supreme homage that is given to God alone – distinguished from dulia and hyperdulia.

Dulia: veneration or respect paid to the saints and angels as the servants and friends of God.

Hyperdulia: veneration of the Virgin Mary as the holiest of creatures.