Those Dark Satanic Mills: The Moral Panic That Won’t Die

Those Dark Satanic Mills: The Moral Panic That Won’t Die August 4, 2012

On Thursday, Religion Dispatches featured a guest editorial from Joseph Laycock, religion scholar and author of “Vampires Today: The Truth about Modern Vampirism.” Laycock examined the most recent crackpot theory from crackpot conspiracy theory king David Icke, he of the “reptoid hypothesis.” In short, the opening ceremony of the London Olympics were part of a brainwashing Satanic conspiracy, and in turn a rallying cry to the spiritual warriors, the “experts in evil” skilled in rooting out these hidden conspiracies. While Icke is largely a figure of fun, a comical nut who sees evil vortexes and reptoid hybrids under his couch, Laycock reminds us that this is no laughing matter.


“While the theories can be entertaining, when too much momentum forms behind them they have historically resulted in moral panic and the persecution of innocent people. The Satanic Panic that peaked in the 1980s and 1990s is constantly threatening to return.

“Constantly threatening to return.” Is this true? Could the madness that were the Satanic Panics really manifest itself again, in an almost identical fashion? It’s hard to believe, until you start looking for the signs.

[Judy] Byington is an authority on Satanists, and as a clinical social worker she spent years helping others heal from wounds so deep most would shrink from the task. With the permission of her clients, she has written about one woman’s experience of growing up within a coven and surviving. The book is called “Twenty-Two Faces.” “This is a huge breaking story validating the existence of human sacrifices of children in our society,” Byington said. […] They have secret combinations. They live in duplicity. They torture and sacrifice the innocent. They give birth in secret so the babies they sacrifice have no birth certificate record. They take the time to learn speaking Latin backwards from what is called the Black Bible.”

That’s not an archive story from the mid-1980s, that’s from a paper in Utah, dated July 28th of this year. Those of us old enough to remember the moral “Satanic” panic of the 1980s and 90s will find the narrative put forth in “Twenty-Two Faces” eerily familiar.

“As the only known survivor-intended-victim of a human sacrificial ceremony, Jenny Hill is living proof that ritual abuse is, in fact, a reality. With great courage and in open defiance of her sadistic abusers, Jenny wishes her story told. The ending will shock you.Referring to journals written throughout childhood, Jenny Hill and her multiple personalities document how as a five year-old, she overcomes trauma by turning to prayer while utilizing her alter states to compartmentalize abuse at the hands of a master mind-control programmer from Nazi Germany. After suffering deaths of a high school sweetheart, plus her only girlfriend, she somehow completes Army medic training, receives a nursing degree, prepares for a church mission and becomes a mother. Simultaneously led by sex-addict Head Alter J.J., intrepid alters assume frequent control, engaging in larceny and prostitution. With her children, her lifeline, the increasingly desperate nurse escapes a drugged-out pimping husband, blacks out in a job interview, comes to nine days later as an inpatient headed for the Utah State Psychiatric Hospital and only then learns what her life has really been.”

It really is as if someone took the 1980 book phenomenon “Michelle Remembers” and used it as a guide.

“The book documents Smith’s memory of events recovered during therapy, documenting the many satanic rituals she believed that she was forced to attend (Pazder stated that Smith was abused by “the Church of Satan,” which he states is a worldwide organization predating the Christian church). The first alleged ritual attended by Smith took place in 1954 when she was five years old, and the final one documented in the book was an 81-day ritual in 1955 that summoned the devil himself and involved the intervention of Jesus, the Virgin Mary and Michael the Archangel, who removed the scars received by Smith throughout the year of abuse and removed memories of the events “until the time was right”. During the rites, Smith was allegedly tortured, locked in cages, sexually assaulted, forced to take part in various rituals, witnessed several murders and was rubbed with the blood and body parts of various murdered babies and adults.”

Unlike Icke, this is no joke. This is the very tinder that ruined the lives of thousands of innocent people as they were accused of being a part of underground Satanic abuse organizations. We often forget how pervasive anti-Satanic propaganda was back then, with many journalists and talk-show hosts (even Oprah) diving right into the hysteria. The West Memphis 3, released almost a year ago, were probably the most well-known victims of this panic. Jessie Misskelley’s former defense attorney Dan Stidham, in an interview with John Morehead, painted a picture of the Satanic hysteria that surrounded the trial.


“…you really have to put this case into historical perspective. In 1993, the Satanic Bandwagon Folks like Dr. Griffis were mainstream and largely supported by both the media and established religion. We now know better, just like we now know that there are such things as “coerced confessions.” In 1993, virtually everybody believed that the phenomena of Satanic Ritualistic Homicide was very real, and perhaps even more regrettably, that no one, not even a mentally handicapped person, or a child, would confess to a crime that they did not commit. Thankfully, due in large part to pioneers with real credentials like Dr. Gisli Gudjohnson, Dr. Richard Ofshe, and Dr. Richard Leo, we now understand the dynamics of false confessions. By the way, not many people remember that Dr. Ofshe won a Pulitzer Prize for his work studying religious “cults.” He had a dual expertise.”

We are still dealing with the fallout of this era, with a dedicated core of true believers keeping the fires burning, all that has to happen is for the right/wrong set of circumstances to line up, and it all erupts again. Indeed, this time it could be worse, since it’s far easier to do “research” and even the usually reserved Catholic church is ramping up the rhetoric about demon possessions, exorcisms, and even underground Satanic cults.

Peg Aloi: Do you believe there are a lot of satanic cults out there?

Father Gary Thomas: There are probably more than we think. In fact, I pray over a woman right now who is a satanic cult survivor.

PA: I need to ask this. Speaking as someone who has done extensive research on the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare in the 1990s: Do you think it’s possible your parishioner’s experiences are false, or that she may be lying, or delusional? Because despite many, many horrific accusations of abuse and murder and various other atrocities by satanic cults over the years, most of them by alleged “survivors” who claim to be former cult members, the FBI, after years of investigation, never found a single shred of evidence to suggest there is or ever has been an underground network of satanic cults in the United States. 

FGT: I don’t believe that she’s lying. She had been seeing a priest in our diocese for a while and her memories stated to surface, and that’s how we learned of her involvement in the cult. But if even half of what she’s saying is true, and I have not found any reason to doubt it, in her system, if anyone exposes the group, they’ll be killed. There is a whole culture in terms of what these people tell their members.

It’s a tinder box, all it needs is a match. Will they target Witches and Pagans? Adherents of Santeria or Palo? Those who venerate Santa Muerte? It’s impossible to say, as it will depend on how the panic manifests, but any group that gets confused with “Satanists” are fair game in such a scenario. It is for this reason that more Pagans need to engage in serious ecumenical, intrafaith, and interfaith work,  and move into more proactive advocacy and anti-defamation initiatives. This advocacy shouldn’t be from small start-ups on Facebook, but from the dominant organizations within our movement, the groups that have built networks and connections over the span of 20 or 30 years. We need to be ready in case an incident that none of us could foresee sparks an ugly backlash against us or our allies. We need to be ready in case our society panics.

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127 responses to “Those Dark Satanic Mills: The Moral Panic That Won’t Die”

  1. Satanisms exists. Its organizations exist. They are using paganism, Asatru etc. for their aims. They are a part of christianity. No god, no devil. It is up to the agans and heathens to say : NO! We have got nothing to do with them. And they are NO PAGANS.
    Thank you

  2. I just worry about any respectable Pagan organization who takes up the task of interfaith dialogue will be talking to the wind, let alone an understanding minister or priest whose bread and butter is Satanic hype.

  3. Yes, Satanism exist, and I’ve known a few Satanists. They are generally Xtians who despise mainstream Xtianity, but don’t want to leave the theology behind, or just poseurs. The thought that they have a secret, multinational organization that steals or breeds & sacrifices children is absurd, and has already been disproven. Satanists are generally harmless, but the people pushing this meme are a serious danger to society. How many lives did they destroy with the Satanic Panic of the 80’s? Too many!

  4. I find it so amusing, the claims of sacrifice, and all the rest but out of the entire vast conspiracy, not one legitimate bit of evidence has appeared. Where are the Bodies? Sacrifice produces a body. Come on, everyone eventually screws up and leaves some kind of evidence. Show me the skeleton, the marks on the bones where the knives were used. Just one. Until then, it’s nothing more than nutjobs who so deeply desire an “enemy” to fight they make one up and then convict innocents.
    These people are nothing more than the McCarthyist of religious beliefs.

  5.  Bodies, especially small ones, are easy to hide.

    I am not, for one moment, suggesting that there is any veracity to these accusations, but lack of evidence does not always equate to acquittal.

    “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”

  6. I think we Pagans do have reason to guard against the return of a Satanic Panic directed against us or Palo or Santeria or other positive religions.  We need to be careful here however not to disbelieve all such claims of abuse by victims.  The attribution of the source of the abuse (“Satanic Pagans!”) is very different from whether or not abuse of some sort really happened.  I think our messaging, as Pagans, should NOT be “it’s all bullshit that evangelicals smear us with”.  Rather, the messaging should be that child abuse does exist, and our religions do not support it.  You could follow that up by suggesting the two most likely theories of source:  1) Isolated idiots who abuse their children and adopt trappings of “Satanism” because its amusing or helps them control victims.  So its not a vast coordinated Satanic conspiracy — its Joe Bob and his friend Billy Hick throwing on some black robes for fun as they pass around 5-year-olds in their basement.  A second less likely theory would be 2) Organized child porn rings.  I am a Pagan psychotherapist and I HAVE SEEN clients who make a very convincing case for having experienced “Satanic” abuse.  I don’t believe it really was Satanic abuse — but to a 5-year-old what is the difference?  Our community needs to separate ourselves from these attacks without disbelieving every story of Multiple Personality Disorder (now Dissociative Identity Disorder).  Thanks, Zagone

  7. No, it’s not the Pagan or Heathen job to say : NO! You can’t think what you want.  Or even to claim they have nothing to do with them, since yes, some do.  There’s some fine people who raised their children well and with love who also recognize themselves as both Pagan and Satanist.
    Many if not most Satanists of the organized or coven kind are strongly against any kind of rape and child abuse, when that would be an unconscionable sacriledge against their faith and against the sovereignty of others. They many perceive such child and sexual abuse as the horrors of the Christian faith (sadly, often a fact clearly proven time and again) who sees people as slaves and sheep. They obviously may have undergone such abuse themselves from a Christian religion growing up and view it with hatred or opposition at least when it defends further abuse under its guise.
    In this they’re right, too. It’s everybody’s job if a religion, large or small, is doing anything actually harmful like rape and abuse to anyone, particularly harm to children, to speak out and try to prevent that. 

  8.  This. I remember the Satanic Panic of the 80s, I had a college professor who wrote one of the definitive books on the phenomenon (“Satanic Panic” by Jeffery Victor.) All the ecumenical outreach in the universe won’t dissuade the “true believers”,  and those Christians who might be sympathetic now will crumple once the if-it-bleeds-it-leads media cranks up the fear, and their fellow Christians fall in line. They will at best be intimidated into silence. I really would not look for help from any mainstream Christian institution, they will side with their fellow Christians and drop us in a heartbeat. I’m fully convinced the only reason Christian institutions bother interacting with “interfaith” Pagans at all is that they hold out hope of converting us.

    Our only defenders will be, like last time, the secular government institutions like the FBI, and the secular medical and psychiatric societies.

  9. The hallmark of conspiracy theory logic is that the inability to produce real evidence is indisputable evidence that the evidence exists, and has been suppressed. The common answer satanic panic folks produce when pressed for lack of evidence is the assertion that bodies are not found because, of course, the local cops and medical examiners are part of the cult too. If you continue to express skepticism about it, then you’re labeled as one of them too. 

  10.  What I worry about is that the “mainstream” Pagan organizations and leaders will passively acquiesce to the accusations, like they did last time. They didn’t come out and say, “ALL of this Satanic panic is nonsense,” they said, “Well, we Wiccans are NOT Satanists! Only those nasty Satanists practice child sacrifice, not us!” In other words, they threw the actual religious Satanists as described above (e.g. Church of Satan, Temple of Set) under the bus, blithely accepting that “Satanic ritual abuse” actually existed, but it was just unfair to blame PAGANS for it. They seem to have thought that by taking this stance, the Christianists would accept them as “allies”, leave them alone and go persecute somebody else.

    Yeah, right.

    What they should have been saying, loudly and clearly,  is: IT DOES NOT EXIST and religious Satanists are being unfairly targeted. They should have been standing with the Satanists, not running away and pointing fingers at them – “we’re not the Satanists, that’s those guys over there!”

  11. Zagone,
    Not so unlikely since it happened. Abuse of the 1) and 2) type happened in the Children of God (Christian) cult in the 80’s  

  12. What I think is that if Law Enforcement arrested and tried every single one of these people claiming they were involved in ‘sacrifices’, then those ridiculous claims would dry up quicker than water on a hot griddle.

  13.  There is the extra level of complication that many wrongdoers (I wanted to write “psychos” but I hesitate to add more crazy to the rhetoric, tempting though it is) often add a religious rationalization after the fact to their behaviors. In other words, they create some weird behavior in their minds, then build a religious justification around it. The unsavory actions come first, the religious rationalization comes after. It might make sense to a psychiatrist, but to the layman law officer or cultural fear monger, the distinction is irrelevant.

  14. I may be wrong , and i too believe this all depends on what happens that triggers it .My feeling is these people will go after Santeria/Voudon first , then Satanists and us next . From our previous fun in the 90’s all pagans are satanists in thier eyes . As a Druid i’m fairly low on their list of evil doers , but still need to remain vigilant . The way i approach this is an attack against one pagan or group  is an attack against all of us .As Haggrid of Harry Potter said this looking and feeling like it did last time [paraphrasing]………..a storm is coming and we need to be ready for it.The SRA panic may return.        Kilm

  15.  But, we aren’t the Satanists. It is those guys over there…

    That said I will neither confirm nor deny whether Satanists practice ritual abuse/sacrifice.

  16.  A significant problem, but there are instances of people being sentenced for murder without a body.

    An obvious, British, example would be Keith Bennett, victim of the ‘Moors Murderers’ Ian Brady and Myra Hindley.

    Of course, there were other forms of evidence, and they killed other children (with no help from Satan), which ensured their guilt.

  17. All of what you have stated is correct . but  that didn’t stop them from convicting the WM3 last time . I’m just hoping all this nonsense doesn’t get out of hand , like it did last time . There was even a so called SRA expert , since debunked , that testified as a witness in the WM3 case . The whole case was based on circumstantual evidence heavy influenced by SRA histeria ……………was a classic travisty of justice. We must be vigilant to help aviod this kind of stuff from happening again.       Kilm

  18. Thank you for picking up on Laycock’s fine essay. I agree that the WM3 is perhaps the best example of satanic panic and what it can do, at least in terms of its high media profile, and I’m glad my interviews with Dan Stidham were a small part of the work to reverse that injustice. I also think you are quite right to urge pagans to be a part of the interfaith movement as a strategy to defend against the possibility of satanic panic. In the Foundation for Religious Diplomacy where we have chapters in a variety of religious traditions, each chapter has its own reasons for existence. For our evangelical chapter its the need to respond to the unfortunate (but deserved) credibility problem we have in regards to the religions. For the pagans it may be the need to self-define and counter misrepresentations so as to put off a potential satanic panic. I’ve mentioned this to a few of my pagan contacts who have responded positively, but I hope that a pagan chapter of the FRD comes into being and I will gladly assist to help make that happen.

  19. Correct me please if i’m wrong  from all my reading and research the Temple of Set  is a more pagan based group , worshipping the gods of the Romano-Greek underworld , not the Judeo Christian[monotheist] Satan . Lavey based Satanists aren’t pagan at all and are based on the Bible Satan, are truely Satanic in the Christian Worldview.But in all reality donot do anything close to what the rumors are . Am i correct in all of this ?If this  is the case the Temple of Set people deserve our concern where Levay based Satanists donot.Isn’t Set a Romano-Greek god of the Underworld?. And i would think the ToS people should avoid using that name to aviod controversy and the loaded meaning the word Satanist has. I had a chance a few years back to read Levays book , the Satanic Bible , seems to me he went out of his way to piss of the Catholic Church and Christians in general , patterened his rutuals after  thiers . Did anyone see that tv story about him that showed part of a Church of Satan ritual ……….was laughable , gooffy even . Was directly poking fun at Catholic rituals .The Church of Satan ways directly opposite mirror Christian values, carnal lust etc .This group to me looks like an offshoot of Christianity and does not deserve our concern .   Kilm

  20. I remember arguing against this crap with my criminal justice instructors in the early 1990’s, citing the ludicrous example of (Republican party chairman and Thurston county deputy) Paul Ingram. The ability of “professionals” to set aside reason and procedure when something touches a deep psychological need is frightening in the extreme. Those of us who were Pagan in those dark times need to remember and continue to tell the stories. Ecumenism is sometimes a cover for Polyanna naivete.

  21. The Pagan Fe3deration in England is certainly ready, and we’ve quite a lot of advocacy work takng place around the world. Sadly, there are still places in our world today where people are accused of witchcraft and are killed as a result of the accusation. I too remember the Satanic Panic as it manifested itself in England. I’m not about to lose sight of the possbility of the madness returning.

  22.  Not all Satanists are LaVeyan or members of the Temple of Set. Y’know, just like not all Pagans are members of Covenant of the Goddess or (fill in another national org here).  Also, wouldn’t it be wise to avoid using that name “witch” because of all the controversy associated with it? Why, people might think you work malefic magic! And goofy rituals… Satanism has never invented rituals as goofy as some of the Neo-Wiccan ones I’ve been to. Like the one where you make elephant noises and pretend to have a trunk to call in the powers of an element (flapping your arms like wings was the one for air, I forget which specific animal that was supposed to be), seen at a Pagan Pride main ritual in Virginia a few years back. People who look laughable on TV? So… have you ever seen Laurie Cabot?

    I haven’t been a (Theistic, non-LaVeyan) Satanist for a long time, but responses like yours still are still irritating for exactly the reason Jason outlines– pulling the “don’t pick on us, we’re nothing like THEM” thing is basically carrying water for the people on the far right who want to bring this horror back.

  23.  What’s especially idiotic about the whole thing is if anyone pays even the slightest amount of attention to Satanism, they’d figure out that individualism is pretty core to both Theistic and non-theistic varieties– to the point where it’s next to impossible to get more than three or four Satanists together and agree on pizza toppings, let alone have a multinational conspiracy of any kind. LaVey managed it for a while on the strength of novelty and charisma, and even that fell apart. Satanists just don’t really “do” organization.

  24. Of course one can be tried and convicted in the absence of a body. The problem is, the scope of satanic panic allegations extend far beyond that. A legitimate prosecution of a no-body homicide requires a court to establish that the missing person has likely been killed. Even below that standard, there has to have been some record of a victim who existed in the first place. Satanic panic “investigators” allege the murder of thousands of people in ways so secretive that apparently no one notices them gone. Like all conspiracies, they require its believers to assume super-human abilities of the conspirators. Perfect silence, perfect discipline, never making a mistake etc. There’s no doubt some serial killers, or just plain lunatics infuse their acts with some sort of occult symbolism or ritual elements, but that’s a far cry from organized networks of Satanists. 

  25. It would be good to subject these jerkoffs even to a preliminary investigation. If they want to talk about how they witnessed all these murders as a former witch or whatever, give them their due. A few bright light bulb interviews and a night down at the lockup, having every hard drive and scrap of paper in their homes hauled away for analysis, a reputation as a “person of interest” in a homicide investigation. If they can sell books and seminars on their notoriety, let’s by all means give them the full ride for their ticket price….

  26. Today there is a much greater and more sophisticated sense of solidarity among the nature-centered religions, if only due to the vigilance and tacit assumptions of this site (and I doubt we’re the only ones), than in the ’80s and ’90s.

  27. Did someone really have to attach the poetic phrasing of William Blake about mining in their header to describe this poop? I don’t think so.

  28. I didn’t know that a show depicting the history of a country was Satanic.

    Woe my ignorance.


  29. Religious delusions and obsessions are very common from mental diseases.  (Whether someone ill like that has that attachment to Batman, Jesus, or Satan, it’s rare most afflicted will harm anyone else while they are sick, but sometimes they do.)  

  30. Apart from the various Underworld worshippers, there has been abuse meted our by those calling themselves Satanists. In the ’80s I heard the story of a young woman who had sustained physical and sexual ritual abuse at the hands of male contemporaries whilst all were in college, the woman thinking this was the Paganism she’d been seeking. There were no babies, families, portable crematoria, mortal human sacrifice, etc, but there are (or have been) tossers out there willing to exploit other people’s ignorance and interest. I daresay ’twas ever thus. We have to have that in our universe of understanding.

  31. Something is getting lost here.  As a therapist (and pagan) some of my clients were recovering from child abuse (sexual, psychological, emotional). As this was during the time of  the “satanic panic” – some were framing this abuse in terms of a satanic experience. When asked “How do you know it was satanic?” The answer was, a previous therapist had labelled it as such.

    While I doubted this was “satanic”, I needed  more therapeutically factual information to be of greater value to a client’s  therapy, so  I sought out more information and found it in a psychiatrist (I wish i could remember his name) explain the phenom of “satanic memories”.  He framed his seminar in the context of the “unreliability of human memory”.  

    In his seminar he made it very clear that the memories are indeed of abuse, but, what happens is a form of denial (towards the family member abusing them) and the child frames, filters and projects the experience through their own religious belief system (most usually xtianity) hence the remembrance of the experience as “satanic” . 

    For psychological “experts” or “religious” counselors by interpreting or labeling  this cover of abuse  in a religious disguise of ” Satan”, “covens”, or “witchcraft” (which the individual is not doing deliberately, but, doing to protect their family relationship with the abuser); is, in my opinion, not only unethical, but totally takes the focus off the fact of the abuse that is occurring or has occurred and the real perpetrators.  The problem is therapists of any name also filter the client’s “story” through their own file of belief .

    Yes, there are covens, Satanists, witches, Heathens, just as their are priest, nuns, clerics, fathers mothers etc…. But, the ethical emphasis should be on helping the individual  label, and verbalize the experience for themselves and focus not on the “groups” perceived as inflicting the abuse, but the abuse itself.

  32. LaVey had a dry humour and wit displayed throughout the Satanic Bible which IMHO directly pokes fun at stuffed shirts who couldn’t see that it was deliberately full of tacky drama.
    I feel like his work was a B-movie such as “Frankenstein vs. the Martians”  where the Christian critics exclaim “That’s not GOOD!”

  33.  This.

    LaVeyan Satanists, or *any* target of a Satanic panic persecution is “our concern” for the simple selfish reason that the Christianists are not going to see any difference, culturally or theologically. To a fundamentalist Christian, *all* of us are “satanists” because all Pagan deities are, in their theology, merely Satan in disguise. So if they have success persecuting the Church of Satan (or the Order of Nine Angles, or Red Sanctuary, or solitary practitioners for that matter) they won’t stop there, it will only embolden them.

    “…they came for the Satanists, but I didn’t speak out, because I wasn’t a Satanist…”

    No. The line must be drawn. As Pagans and Magicians, we defend the TRUTH. And the truth is that organized “satanic ritual abuse” does not exist. Period. Read the FBI report. Read Jeffery Victor’s book. Does. Not. Exist. This needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly.

    I don’t agree with the theology of LaVeyan Satanists, but I don’t agree with the theology of Asatru, Druidism or Gardnerian Wicca either. None of them are my Path. But we are all equally  the targets, and as Ben Franklin said, “we had better hang together, or we shall all hang separately.”

  34. It is saf to say that everyone accused in the Satanic Panic was innocent for the simple reason that no one in law enforcement is suicidal enough to go after the real thing. 

  35.  I do find that conspiracy theories feel like they fall foul of Hanlon’s Razor, if nothing else.

  36.  We don’t arrest witnesses, as a rule.

    If, however, they were arrested after the investigations of their claims for wasting police time as well as slander/perjury/libel, then we may see some results.

  37. As an authorized  representative of The Church of Satan I am amazed that in the internet age there are still questions about the nature of Satanism.  As briefly as possible let me state that prior to 1966 there was never, in the world,in all of history, a religious group of people who called their religion Satanism.  The Church of Satan was formed to give atheists who had no need for a god but lots of need for the religious aspects of fellowship, ritual and dogma, a legal organization in the form of a Church.  The Satanic Bible and other canonical dogmatic works can be found in any book store BUT will answer all your questions.
    Please do not confuse Satanists (what others call LaVeyans—we see no need for the distinction) with the Heretic Christians who worship the Christian Devil.  They are the product of the Christian myths, stereotypes and from the very pulpit of the Christian churches is where they were created.  We Satanists call them Satanaflipparoos.
    Anyone who commits a crime for a devil is someone who believes in the devil of Judeo-Christianity, not us. The FBI proved that in 1992 and have validated that over the years since.

  38. If you want one example, there’s Henry Lee Lucas, who plead to over 300 murders at the behest of a satanic cabal, and said that the cult’s connections were such that he would never be executed. 

    Now, Lucas was totally full of shit : PROVEN. But he was the one person George W. Bush felt did not deserve the death penalty. 

    Kinda makes you think, doesn’t it? (My facts are in order, but the theory above is utter crap, I hope you realize). 

  39. John and Jason, I find that Stidham quote very interesting. Of course, I’m glad to see that he realizes his mistakes. I’m also happy to see him crediting the work of Richard Ofshe, who was a professor of mine at Cal. He was a big influence on me (I graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in sociology, and his class was on the “sociology of thought reform,” ie brainwashing). However, it’s also frustrating, as Ofshe was an expert witness at the West Memphis Three trial. It’s not like Stidham didn’t have the “false memory”/”Satanic Ritual Abuse is not real” evidence staring him right in the face at the time of the trial. 

  40. Jason, not sure if you saw this, but there was an article in a Catholic online “news” source this week about a corpse-theft in New Jersey:

    The headline reads, “Satanic cult suspected in New Jersey corpse theft,” but in the article it says, “We did a lot of research and my husband found a group online that uses bodies in some kind of a ritual and they need the bones for their ritual. The group is called Palo. There were some bodies found in Newark and Woodbridge and Lancaster, Pennsylvania, speculated to have been used by this group,” she said. “Who else would want a body?””

    An acquaintance of mine who’s part of the Palo community blogged about the ridiculousless and dangerousness of it:

  41.  They are using paganism. That is why pagans have to say : NO! They can do what they like, but NOT using paganism or pagan/ heathen infrastructure. They are just the other side of monotheism and christianity.

    They have nothing to do with paganism

  42.  After stirring up to many dirt, satanista  like Aquino, an accused child molestor,  tried to undermine pagan organizations…..

  43. Odinsson, 
    To suggest they’re managing such a conspiracy is a strain on credulity. If you know someone’s doing something wrong, speak out, but the poster who suggest it’s unlikely to find 4 satanists who could even agree on pizza toppings I think was right on.

  44. So I’m a satanaflipparoo is it?  Because I believe that the Devil is neither imaginary *or* the being portrayed in Christian beliefs?  I am not Christian in any sense of the word.  My beliefs are not shaped by their dogma. 

    Can we get over the petty name-calling and snide remarks already?  Theistic Satanists exist.  It doesn’t mean that we are Christian heretics.  It means that we look at Christian beliefs and say to ourselves ‘this is not the truth, there is more to this story’.  Many of us (most that I’ve ever come across in fact) completely reject all Christian customs and rituals. 

    For more information about Theistic Satanism I suggest you visit Diane Vera’s wonderful page on the topic as she can explain all of this much more eloquently than I can.

  45.  It ends up looking like the People’s Front of Judea/Judean People’s Front rift after a while.

    When stuff like this looms, standing together to point out the fallacies and misconceptions of extremists should not be in question.

  46. JoeMax, I absolutely agree with you.  I remember reading an article about Paganism in a Christian publication a few years ago.  “Despite repeated denials, they do practice animal sacrifice” it said.  I remember thinking, “despite repeated denials” — apparently we can deny something over and over again and still not be believed. 

    Of course they are looking to convert us.  Many try the “lead by example” approach, thinking if they interact with us and give us pleasant experiences, we’ll gravitate in their direction. 

    Gods bless Agent Ken Lanning of the FBI who did so much to end Satanic Panic by being an impartial, trusted investigator. 

  47. In search of mass graves, the FBI spent thousands of taxpayer dollars to send heat-seeking planes all over the Midwest.  That’s just one of the methods they used to attempt to find any evidence at all of organized Satanic cults.  The leading agent was Ken Lanning, if you are interested in finding out more. 

  48. mariele wrote: ” the ethical emphasis should be on helping the individual label, and verbalize the experience for themselves and focus not on the “groups” perceived as inflicting the abuse, but the abuse itself.”  That is a central point and VERY IMPORTANT.

    In the case of the West Memphis 3, the perpetrator of the murder of 3 children was allowed to go free, while 3 innocent young men were robbed of their freedom.  The abuse should be the focus, and also the true abuser. 

  49.  Who else would want a body?  College fraternities.  We ought’a shut ’em all down, by God!  Because ONE college fraternity is suspected to collect bones of famous people…

  50. Got any citations for that? How was this “undermining” supposed to work?

    Aquino was caught up in the Presidio day-care case, a textbook example of satanic panic, because he was a Satanist and lived near there. He was investigated by the Army and cleared.

  51. Odinsson, you’ve spouting the line of the late Isaac Bonewits’ ill-considered vendetta against Satanists, a bad mark on his otherwise sterling career. He once belonged to the Church of Satan and carried a grudge against them all his life, and would see them thrown under the bus during the Panic of the 80s rather than stand up for the truth. Nobody says that Satanists are “Pagans”, least of all Satanists. (Though as one poster here pointed out, a case could be made for the Temple of Set being basically a Pagan group – i.e. how is it any different from a group that worships Hecate, or Odin?) Certainly Satanists, for the most part, bear no ill will toward Pagans, except for perhaps the ones who disparage them (like you.) Satanists would NOT be the ones burning Witches if they could.

    The point is that a) they are being falsely accused by, b) Christianists who DO call them “pagans” and lump them together with all Pagan folks (and they call all of us “satanists”), and c) we should stand up for the truth, if for no other reason than “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

    Of course, I’m talking about actual religious Satanists (CoS, ToS, ONA, etc.) not teenage heavy-metal headbangers with “SATIN RULZ!” painted on their black leather jackets. Anyway, there’s at least an equal number of confused teenagers calling themselves “warlocks” and painting pentagrams on their black leather jackets, and I don’t consider them an example of religious Wiccans either.

  52. Of course they will never believe us – we’re all “satanists” and Satan is the “father of lies!” That’s why Pagans throwing Satanists under the bus to deflect accusations of “ritual abuse” by Christianists is not only cowardly, but an exercise in futility.

    Look, a lot of pixels are spilled on this blog defending the practices of Santeria and Palo, and frankly, their theologies are no closer to Neo-Pagan theology than the Church of Satan’s is. Santeria is closer to Catholicism than it is to Wicca. But we Pagans and Magicians should defend them, and rightly so, against false accusations by Christianists, who lump us all together anyway, no matter how much it’s denied.

    First they came for the Atheists, and I did not speak out,
    Because I was not a Atheist.

    Then they came for the Satanists, and I did not speak out,Because I was not a Satanist.

    Then they came for the Santerians, and I did not speak out, Because I was not a Santerian.

    Then they came for me – and there was no one left to speak for me.

  53. And here we have an example of Satanists not being able to agree on pizza toppings… (sorry, j/k…)

    Theistic Satanists do indeed exist and argue a lot with the non-theistic Satanists (it was the cause behind the great schism of the Temple of Set from the Church of Satan). But their theology cannot be simply reduced to “inverted Christianity”, and for the non-theistic Satanists to flog that idea is just playing into the hands of their mutual detractors.

    That the theistic Satanists “borrow” the image of Satan as a godform from the Christians (who perverted it, say the Satanists) does not make them reverse-Christians. Santeria “borrows” the imagery of Saints from Catholicism, but it doesn’t make them Catholics, or “Catholic heretics”.

    Christians, in point of fact, stole their popular image of Satan from Pan (what Satan “looks like” is never described in the Bible.) So a case could be made that the theistic Satanists stole it back! Certainly the characteristics ascribed to Satan by theistic Satanists are much closer to those of Pan than to “the devil” of Christian mythology.

    Remember, the more we slag each other, the louder the fundamentalist Christians laugh at us all.

  54.  Yeah, what about Tibetan Buddhists? For their religious rites they use cups made out of human skulls and horns out of human femurs! I think we should have the Dali Lama arrested!

  55. Back in 1993, especially during the Halloween bash in Sherman, NY, I went up against Gavin and Yvonne Frost,((Tampa, Florida area bash: Janet and Stewart Farrar ;with their live  inGavin Bone at the time but now married??? to Gavin Bone after Stewart’s death, GreyCat- a witch from TN), Jamesand Cassidy Wasserman, Isaac Bonewits and many others. I discovered they deceive through their lies that they are not satanists but it’s the biggest lie. All the witches were contacted by G&Y Frost to inform them, as I later discovered, that the craft was in danger due a “spy” within the church of wicca. Supposedly it turned out to be me. What actually happened was that G&Y Frost had a boat company that went under back then and the victims who bought a bought, not finished but one of course, all sued. One victim ended up dead by ‘accident’ after being run down. This same ritual was used on me but to no avail. I was helping, at this time, people living with hiv. G&Y got wind of it and with the boat company issues- well I became a ‘spy’ within. G&Y came to my home to talk about the issues only to find out when they arrived they had other intentions and left. While here they went into their trance and conjured many demons of torture and death to shut me up because had the lawyers gotten a hold of me, the lawyers of the victims possibly would have found out more than they needed to know. G&Y knew I wouldn’t lie for them. Since then many other witches have tried to shut me up in the above mentioned names. I’ve even found their charms on my land that did absolutely nothing to me..WITCHES ARE SATANISTS and they lie only knowing that if it were to be found out, their evils would return to them double fold. gods/godesses are demons and nothing else and controlled through prayers by witches to curse, heal, and all the other so called good and evils people now see materializing in the world. I also realized that Jesus Christ WAS! the only God capable of turning off their evil intentions toward me. G&Y also avoid the IRS. They made 1000.00 unpaid taxes and had all their workers spellbound to sign a sub-contract which was only to benefit G&Y Frost. Before I left I believe their salary went up to 2500.00, as they discriminated against me by lowering my pay tremendously while the other office workings kept what they were making. They simply wanted my mouth shut so they could continue to look beautiful than they really are…Robert Bickle,

  56.  Yes!
    People don’t call practitioners of Santeria Catholic heretics just like they don’t call worshipers of Lilith Jewish heretics.  But just say the word Satanist and everyone flips out. 

    Judaism assimilated just about every part of their belief system from other tribes and peoples, so I very much agree with your ‘stealing it back’ reference.  The name Satan means adversary but the nature of that relationship is never fully explained so it’s really up to interpretation based off of experience and interactions with the spirit in question.  Sometimes I wonder if he doesn’t appear as something slightly different to each of us just to test our willingness to forge our own path.

    And just for the record…I prefer extra cheese, green peppers, and onions on my pizza, but that doesn’t mean that other topping choices are any less valid. 🙂

  57. Not just Bonewits, but other Pagan groups also tried to distance themselves sharply from all kinds of Satanists and Setians back in the days of the first SRA panic.  I served on  the board of AMER (Association? Alliance? of Magical and Earth Religions) back in the ’90s, specifically because it did not employ this tactic.

  58. I think I need this explained in a pie chart. No, skip the chart and just make pie. Thanks

  59. No, that’s not right..first you have to arrange the pepperoni in a pentagram with  the point down.

  60. If I had a body to be rid of, I wouldn’t use a mass gave.  Not that I have actually given this kind of thing any serious thought. Just pointing out it is easy to hide bodies.

    They still find ancient remains, after all.

  61. That depends on your point of view.

    The terms ‘witch’, ‘pagan’ and ‘heathen’ are all valid forms of description for modern people using them.

    ‘Satanist’ however, has an obvious connection to an entity that most self-confessed Satanists do not believe in.

    The term was deliberately chosen (if I recall correctly) for its shock value, amongst other reasons.

  62.  Your god is not the only way. Your satan is not in opposition to His way.

    Or, to put in other terms: My god carries a hammer, yours was nailed to a cross.

  63.  Indeed…you cannot convince people who do not wish or intend to be convinced that Pagans etc are OK.  Christians WANT to lump all pagany groups together… they consider all of them satanic by their very rejection of Christianity.  They WANT to come after us… like they have come after hundreds of indigenous cultures…lying and killing to kill the Indian but somehow save his soul.  They have come for us for hundereds of years and are just looking for new and creative ways to do it….or a return to circumstances so they can do it the old fashioned way.

  64. The german point of view is the majority’s, which is Christian. These are all “in yer face” terms, intentionally using approvingly a word with jangly connotations. Some are more intense than others. The internal consistency of those who self-apply them is irrelevant.

  65.  So, in other words, I hallucinated over a decade of being both Satanist and Pagan? It’s really, really not uncommon for Theistic Satanists to worship more traditionally Pagan gods along with Satan. I was, and always have been, a polytheist; at the time, one who held Satan as my patron. Why in the world would that be “the other side of monotheism”?

    In other words, you really don’t know what the heck you’re talking about.

  66.  @2b9d434600cac9a479264de8360bc8ec:disqus Very much so, yes. It wasn’t exactly a pleasant time to be a Satanist interested in Paganism– I think I would have embraced Paganism a lot earlier with a lot less inner conflict if it hadn’t been for the frosty reception I got from some of the Pagan commnunity (and if I had a dime for how many Pagans asked me if I kill cats, I’d be rich. You’d think Pagans would have better sense, but no.) I particularly loved the “witches against Satanism” buttons.

    It’s a lot better now– even though there’s still cluelessness and misinformation, people do try to correct it.

  67.  To be honest, thats how all the Wiccans I’ve ever run across are.  Willing to throw others under a bus.  Personally, I fucking hate Wiccans and their love and light BS.  To me Wiccans just bring the dogma and guilt of Xitianity to Paganism. 

  68. I wouldn’t use a mass grave either.  I believe the FBI sought mass graves because that is what the alleged survivors of Satanic abuse were reporting. 

  69. Another thought on conversion attempts: a male Pagan friend of mine was getting lots of replies to his profile on a popular dating site.  At first the women were nice and seemed to be interested in him, but after a few conversations they started attempting to convert him.  He put text on his profile asking people to stop doing this.  His responses dried up markedly.  He wondered if there was an organized effort on the part of Christianist women to proselytize in this manner. 

  70. All Wiccans? Now *that’s* a mature and productive way to approach things. Please share with everyone what other groups you stereotype.

  71.  Not necessarily.  Luciferianism existed long before Christianity, it was based upon the celtic sungod lugh.  Christianity just tried to make it a bad word. 

  72.  It has a venerable history in modern Christian proselytizing:

    [from Wikipedia]

    “Love Bombing” is the deliberate show of affection or friendship by an individual or a group of people toward another individual. Critics have asserted that this action may be motivated in part by the desire to recruit, convert or otherwise influence. The term was used within, and is often associated with, the Unification Church, especially the San Francisco Bay area church known as the “Oakland family.”

    “Flirty Fishing” (FFing) is a form of evangelistic religious prostitution practiced from around 1974 to 1987 by female members in the new religious movement the Children of God, now known as The Family International.

    The term refers to Matthew 4:19 from the New Testament, in which Jesus tells two fishermen that he will make them “fishers of men”. Cult leader David Berg extrapolated from this that women in his movement should be “flirty fishers” (also called “bait” or “fisherwomen”): the targeted men were called “fish”. The cult published several documents with exact instructions. Flirty Fishing was defined as using sex appeal for proselytizing. If masturbation, oral, or penetrative sex ensued, this was termed as “loving sexually” and also counted as a “deep witness”, meaning that the “bait” earned more brownie points within the group than by mere flirting. Berg noted that Flirty Fishing did not necessarily entail intercourse, but that this was by far the most efficient method of proselytizing.

  73.  cleared by whom? His seniors in very high ranking positions? lol….

    It is a fact that Flowers AKA Thorsson, a disciple of Aquino  tried to save the satanic ongoings by giving them an “asatru” cover, moving smoothly from the Temple of Set and The Order of Shining Trapezohedron to form the Troth that had a lot of work to do to get the occult/ satanic crap under control.  They kicked him out at least….Until today Asatru is suffering from those satanic inputs, using LOKI as their symbol .  After SATAN himself and SET – but that attracted to much attention – it is LOKI now,  ……That is why I don’t call myself Asatru no more but traditional heathen……

  74. Luciferianism is based on Lucifer/Heosphoros/Helel. Not Lugh.

    Of course, back in those days, Lucifer was a perfectly fine deity/honorific. It was the name, in fact, of a bishop of Cagliari, whose followers were known as Luciferians (he was an opponent to Arianism).

    Lucifer only became cognate with the (Christian) Satan when one of Cagliari’s opponents (I am sorry, but I forget exactly who) took the Isaiah 14:12 line and reinterpreted it from being about a man to being about the fallen Satan figure.

    Placing Lucifer/Helel as synonymous with Satan/Samael is, to me, a significant confusion of entities.

  75. (To JoeMax)

    I’ve always wanted to score with a nun…

    Reckon this method’d work? :p

  76.  Funny, I would say that Satan is more likely cognate with Surt than Loki, but that is just me.

  77.  “It is a fact that Flowers AKA Thorsson, a disciple of Aquino  tried to
    save the satanic ongoings by giving them an “asatru” cover, moving
    smoothly from the Temple of Set and The Order of Shining Trapezohedron
    to form the Troth that had a lot of work to do to get the occult/
    satanic crap under control. ”

    The sum total of which give us nothing.  Thorsson’s associations were a scandal then and they were dealt with.  For you to suggest that there is a satanic influence of the Troth today, borders on a liable claim. 

    “Until today Asatru is suffering from those satanic inputs, using LOKI as
    their symbol .  After SATAN himself and SET – but that attracted to
    much attention – it is LOKI now,  ……That is why I don’t call myself
    Asatru no more but traditional heathen……”

    Clearly you need to get out more and go to some actually event with some real Heathens (ECT is in a few weeks).  If you think there is satanic influence in modern Asatru, you’re parroting a Saturday Night Live church lady sketch and not dealing with reality. 

  78. David Icke is no laughing matter. He may be the most famous crackpot but he is not alone. And he has followers who use bad science to justify thier beliefs. They think RH negative blood is proof of alien interbreeding with proto humans. This is the equivalent to me of early fascism only this time is psuedo scientific. I also know first hand that innocent people are attacked in print by conspiracy writers who promote the ancient alien hypothesis and most of the people so attacked are Christian. It is a problem and the mixing of Satanism with it makes it worse and as far as psuedo science goes vampirism as religion is just as bad. Pagans need to take a stand and reject these groups and their psuedo science based beliefs.

  79. Why is it that few NeoPagans want to talk about the part that many big name Pagans played in the SRA scare?

    Ask Brad Hicks about how he was essentially told to shut up about the utter lack of evidence in the SRA accusations, because the BNPs wanted to keep the Christian accusers from targeting NeoPagans, and anything that suggested less than 100% agreement with the accusers, and anything less than 100% assistance in smearing people, was a betrayal of the Pagan community.

  80. Actually, I have talked about here on this blog before, and linked to Brad Hicks article when talking about it. 

    Re-reading that article, it’s important to note that the Wiccan who worked with him to debunk Satanic Panics, Don Frew, is today a key figure in the Covenant of the Goddess, the largest Wiccan credentialing organization in the United States. He’s also their main interfaith person, doing exactly the sort of work necessary to make sure a moral panic like this is nipped in the bud should it happen again.

    Further, there were other Wiccans working against the panics, people I know personally. I have no doubt Hicks received the resistance he did, but I also don’t think he was everywhere and connected with all Pagans of influence.

    Finally, the Pagan community has changed a lot in the last 30 years. The BNPs of then don’t hold the same kind of power, and they are joined by a younger generation who have different views on some of the old shibboleths. 

    So I’m happy to “talk” about the role we played during that time, unless “talking about it” secretly means “dumping on Pagans, with no larger goal in mind” in which case I’ve got better things to do.

  81. Of course.  The Alliance of Magical and Earth religions (AMER) that I mentioned above did excellent work out of St. Louis, and put out some excellent pamphlets that I still have in my files.  (You can also still find them on the web.)  Hicks was its third president; the second was Kiwi Carlisle.

  82. And don’t forget those strange Catholics who put bones in their altars and chapels. Sure, they say they’re from holy people and people who wanted to be buried there, but with all those bones, how can we know?

  83.  I’ve been advocating this for awhile.  Let’s put their stories to the test.

  84.  My friend, I don’t live in the USA but in central Europe and I do not say anything about Troth today at all because I don’tknow. But I know the “asatru” scene here in central Europe and me and many others left “asatru” orgnizations in disgust because so many leftovers from neo-satanic sects like OTO and FS  were there and they tried to establish their LOKI worship as a surrogate . Even in Scandinavia this is happening.
    I was attending official blots of the german Troth org. called Eldaring wehre the “Herdwart” burnt old furniture and garbage in the sacred fire as an hommage to LOKI….

  85. Odinsson, this is the second reference I’ve seen to Lokians in Europe. Do they have a home address? Do they have anyone who can talk to the press? I’d like to have their take on the same reports.

  86.  I love Diane Vera’s site.  That reminds me that I haven’t been there in a few months.

  87.  Huh.  Hadn’t heard that one before.  I guess I’m half alien then. Heh heh, that’s a conversation starter for sure.

  88.  But speaking seriously, we need to defend any innocent group, no matter how hokey some perceive them to be (remember, we’re all just as hokey to many outside our community) just because as Pagans religious liberty and the right to believe and practice as we please should be very dear to us.  Otherwise, we’re just big fat hypocrites and cutting off our collective noses to spite our faces.

  89.  Baruch, I can’t tell you any stories about Lokians in Europe, but my ‘missus’ is a Loki follower (a more accurate term than ‘worshipper’, I find).

    I can get the appeal of wanting to follow a god of misrule – they are vital for balance.

    I must say, however, that I have heard nothing of Asatruar being Satanic rejects. Neo-Nazis, sure, but not Satanists.

  90. Sorry if i came off that way i had no intention to malign any Satanists other than the Levay types . As  they are an offshoot of Christianity i see no need to be concerned about them .   

  91. Kilmrnock,
    Where you get off trying to decide what gods they really worship, if any? It’s the same thing the Christian do to us Pagans, everybody who isn’t Christian gets called “Satanic”

     You think most non-Pagans give a care whether someone calls themselves “New Age” “Wiccan” “NeoPagan” “Light Worker” “Heathen” etc., etc.? FYI – No, they don’t.  It’s all the same to them!
     So now you’re calling LaVey Satanists “Christians”.. I think what they do is often kind of silly, obviously I think it’s done a lot in fun, but your assumption is just (usually at least) wrong.  

  92. Mostly it’s been Odinnson and Kilmarrnock sharing their group stereotypes in this thread.I don’t think they call themselves Wiccan

  93. Odinsson, 
    I’m sure those Asatru you’re complaining about all miss you so much, too.

  94. JoeMax,  
    So you know – I personally know Bonewitz did not keep said grudge as a general thing for the rest of his life.  There might have been some specific folks he never came to like, but he stopped saying everybody who calls themselves Satanists are bad or something like that or whatever that had been he’d been saying long before .  People do grow, you know, and painful feelings can mend and perspectives widened. 
    That was  a long time ago, and I think it can be dropped now.

  95. What ? quest i was only commenting from what is on their own website, Setians . my comments about the ” levayans ” is what is from his own book . i don’t consider Levay a good representative of Satanism . Seems to me he is just a sensationalist . Like i said seems he just had a bone to pick with the Catholic Church.Also seems to me the Term satanist is a much more loaded term than even Witch , but i agree witch is also a loaded term .my intention was never to malign any Satanist cept the Levayans that look like posers to me . i also understand many use the loaded terms on purpose to own it , take it back . Or for the shock value of it .And in my previous post i asked to corrected if wrong , not to be belittle and critised . i didn’t call them Christians , i said an offshoot of them ……….an Antichristian .I’m not going to argue wheather a Satanist is pagan or not i’m not sure . Is satanism based on the biblical Satan or pagan underworld gods ?the whole thing seems  a wee bit murcky to me . I’m getting conflicting info here. Mixing beliefs is ok , but call it what it is , please. The Setians seem to be based on pagan gods , others i’m not quite sure, sounds a bit neopagan .Just for the info , i am Druid just trying to find out what exactly a Satanist is .the websites are just a bit ambiguos.

  96.  Baruch:

    Emailadress, are you joking? They are undermining Asatru in Europe as a whole within the asatru organizations and claiming to be real Asatru. They are no Asatru at all but just looking for fresh meat from a safer position. Most of them are ex OTO or still OTO, Fraternitas saturni and Wiccas. I have met some  Nazi types in European Asatru, but most of them are neo-satanists, Stephen Flowers freaks, destroying now the very rest of real heathenry from within. Have a look at the “Eldaring”…….

    I am sure they miss me, because I rub it into their faces in my blog  ;-)))

  97.  There is another tradition of Lucifer as “Light Bringer,” like in the Strega tradition where Aradia is the daughter of Lucifer and Diana.  Many Witches do revere Lucifer as “Lord of the New Born Day.”  You can hear a hymn to Lucifer on this page:

  98. “I don’t think they call themselves Wiccan”
    Ya think?
    Kilm’s a (Recon?) Druid and, it seems fairly safe to say that Odinnson is of the Heathen variety.

  99.  I’m just responding to the Lucifer as Satan fallacy of the early Catholic Church.

    The term is an honorific, applied to various people and gods over the years (including Yeshua Ben Yusuf)

    I am aware that in some traditions, Lucifer was the light-bringing herald of the dawn – the planet Venus – consort of Diana and father of Aradia. Although, there is some dispute about the whole legend (thanks to Charles Leland.)

  100.  Right, they are just a harmless group of persecuted atheists…..

    Anyway, they are not pagan or heathen….

  101. Is there anything you actually know or you just persecuting them, too with no actual basis?

  102.  Well, ignoring everything else he says, It is pretty much impossible to be both a Heathen (a follower of the traditions of North-Western Europe) and a Satanist (either a hedonistic atheist or a follower of Egyptian-Middle Eastern traditions.)

  103.  Obviously satanists are delusional…..the same line of arguments applies to judeao-christians as well. Jahwe was just one god among others before he established his coup de etat. and became monothesitic ruler. That you, a satanist, claim to worship “other gods” is on the same level as a catholic worshipping saints along with jahwe.

    On the other hand: our ancestors didn’t allow LOKI worship along with the gods. He is an outsider making himself “varg i veum”, a wolf in the holy ground, that could be executed without legal punishment in heathen times.

    And yes, it IS a crucial point to make people understand, that satanism is NO PART of paganism. Many o our (the heathen pagans) problems could be solved….

  104.  Right, it is impossible and all we want is, that people understand this. It is annoying watching them showing up at blots, or leading blots in high ranking positions in Asatru organization, with names like “Fenris….” etc. doing everything possible that is against old rules for a blot to please their dark lord. Ever thought about the consequences for other participants who just want to worship the gods? I witnessed one woman starting curses using the power of the blot. One of the worst crimes possible in heathen days…..

  105.  you seem to  have basic problems with reading and understanding or willing to do so. They pose as a harmless group of persecuted atheists….lol….

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