Wyrd Words: Drawing The Line – Heathens Against White Supremacists

Greetings, and welcome back to Wyrd Words. Keeping the Thor in Thursdays, every other week here on Agora!

Writing here at the Patheos Pagan Channel, I’ve gotten to know some remarkable authors with some truly brilliant ideas. In my time at The World Table I’ve met some fantastically brilliant people from all ends of the religious spectrum, and I’ve learned a lot from our conversations. Bill-Paying-Day-Job aside, I love what I do. Working for and with the online Pagan community is great! Mostly.

I’m the chief administrator for Huginn’s Heathen Hof, which hosts blogs, comics, a Library of Lore, and a number of other services for the online Heathen community. Sadly, every community has its dark sides; and it was through this website that I had my first real encounter with our own. It was late one Thursday evening when I received an e-mail from the website’s built in contact form.

All it said was: “Hail! Plz share tis!”

If it’s too small to read, don’t worry. There’s nothing intelligent in there anyway…

Somebody had apparently had investigated my webpage enough to know that it was a hub for Heathens (but NOT enough to see the “About the Author” page that says I’m married to a Jewish woman), and decided to send this to me, followed later by an invitation to the march in Tempe, AZ. I got invited to this abominable display of ignorance because I’m a Heathen blogger, and somebody just ASSUMED that I would support their “Diversity=White Genocide” message because I follow the Aesir and the Vanir. This wasn’t just some random, ill-informed outsider making accusations. This was one of our own, propagating the stereotype that those ill-informed outsiders shout at us.

So why is this important?

Like it or not, there is a small segment of the modern Heathen community that not only buys into this kind of blatant racism, but co-opts our faith and uses our religion as an excuse to do so without having to admit that they ARE racist. These people twist the idea of ancestor veneration and cultural pride as a way to justify and mask their hate, as if using religious reasoning for their behavior somehow exempts them from the consequences of their actions. I refuse to allow them to abuse and dishonor our faith, our community, and our gods. We have the power to speak up and strip away that religious mask they wear. We CAN expose these people for what they are and show the world that they do NOT represent us.

The Difference Between Pride and Racism

The most common excuse you’ll hear from the kind of people who supported this event is that they’re simply displaying ancestral pride. They’ll say things like:

“Black people are allowed to celebrate their ethnicity!”, or “Why isn’t it okay to celebrate our culture and heritage as white Americans?”
and (most annoyingly), “Oh yeah? Why don’t we have a WHITE History Month?”

Friggin racists photo whitemanmarch_zps5c8c4ca0.jpg

Me thinks they doth protest to much…

“I would like to live in a world where each and every race  is able to take pride in itself, honor its ancestors [...] so that White people can choose to live in White communities and White countries”

-Kyle Hunt (White Man March Organizer)

They’ll try desperately to assure you that they don’t HATE non-white people… They just wish they’d live somewhere else.  That’s not racist, right? 

This isn’t pride. This isn’t “celebrating our ancestors”. This is hate fueled by FEAR.

Going to the Highland Games and trying (or more likely failing) to toss a caber is a way to celebrate your ancestors. Freaking out because your next-door neighbors are Mexican is not.

Going to a Blot or Pagan Pride is a great way to get in touch with your roots. Pretending that sharing our country with other people (like the ones who were here first…) is somehow a plot to exterminate us is a great way to get in touch with your local tinfoil hat vendor.

 So What Happened Next?

Needless to say, after I had received such a polite invitation, I was excited to have an opportunity to attend the counter protest! I even made a sign.

Cut me some slack, I’ve never made a sign in my life.

So I showed up to the counter protest, AWESOME sign in hand, to stand in the sun for a few hours before I had to work a 12-hour shift. I had no idea what to expect, or how to prepare for it. It’s a good thing I didn’t spend too much time trying, because would never have guessed what happened next. As we were setting up our signs, more and more people from various groups started to assemble. We had Anarchists, Anti-Fascists, African American Civil Rights activists, LGBT activists, a few random pedestrians who picked up the cause, and 1 Heathen with a crappy hand made sign. In total, over 50 people came, ready to stand up to the white supremacists. In fact, of all the people who volunteered to be there that day, only one group canceled.

That group just happened to be organization behind the White Man March!

There we were, over 50 of us loudly protesting the racists who had yet to show up, when a Tempe Police Lieutenant informed our group that they had contacted Kyle Hunt (the man behind the “White Man March”) and been informed that the event had been canceled due to the large number of protesters. Let me just reiterate that. All of these “Proud White Men” heard how many of us were waiting for them and RAN AWAY. So how did our merry group of protesters respond?

By claiming victory of course!

 photo 1525306_10202387797868855_1511218031_n_zpsdc14ebe8.png

Photo from (http://www.demotix.com/news/4198923/supremacist-rally-cancelled-face-opposition-tempe#media-4198669)

That’s me (in the red circle) getting interviewed by Fox News while the Anarchist group does a victory chant.

 A Glimmer of Hope

If you’re at all like me (or really like any rational human being), this whole thing took a bit of a notch out of your faith in humanity. Watching the white supremacists chicken out did a bit to restore my spirits, but what really convinced me that there’s still a reason to hope for the future came after I got back home. Before I went out to the counter protest, I posted an update to this blog’s official Facebook Page. If any other local Heathens were going to be there, I wanted them to know they weren’t alone, but I honestly expected to lose a LOT of followers that day as a result of my stance on the issue.

Instead, this is what I came back to.
Awesome FB support photo FBsupport_zpsfd5527d5.png

I lost 6 “likes” that day. 6 people were so firmly in support of this display of blatant racism that they couldn’t tolerate me anymore. In exchange, over 200 people joined the page, dozens of people left supportive comments like those above, and I received at least ten e-mails from fellow Heathens  who were thrilled to see people standing up to this organization.

The kinship and support that I got from our community that day was OVERWHELMING. The racists in our community may be loud and well-organized, but they are NOT the majority. I saw so many people stand up for what’s right that day that I can’t help but have hope for a future where this kind of ignorance may someday be eliminated. It’s not just a pipe dream. It’s not a lost cause. It’s not impossible. On March 15th, in the middle of what was supposed to be a “World Wide” white supremacist rally, I saw proof that it CAN BE DONE; but only if good people are willing to fight for it! All we need to do is be willing to speak up when racists try to hide behind our faith. We can’t pretend that these people don’t exist. We can’t be afraid to deny them their religious justifications and force them to acknowledge what they’re really doing.

Lead by example and show them how to live with PRIDE rather than hate.


Wyrd Words is published on alternate Thursdays. Subscribe via RSS or e-mail!

About Alyxander Folmer

Alyxander Folmer is a student of Anthropology at ASU, focused on analyzing and building religious communities. He is a devoted Heathen, and married to a Rabbi in training. Interest in Pagan interfaith relations lead him to join the committee for the formation of the Pagan Chapter at the Foundation for Religious Diplomacy, where he hopes to utilize his training in community building and cultural exchange. The majority of his work can be located at http://www.heathenhof.com/

  • Kevin Phelps

    If Alyxander Folmer would like to debate the issue of white genocide on audio or radio, I would be MORE than happy to EASILY dismantle all of his lame arguments

    But my guess is that he would rather refer to white people as HATE SLURS like RACIST and WHITE SUPREMACIST and fear any response to his anti-white rhetoric

    The guy BRAGS about harassing white kids, then acts like HE is doing something NOBLE

    • Robert Rudachyk

      Actually he is doing something noble, and there is no white supremacist argument that can stand up to scrutiny, I for one would be proud to debate you any time and any place, and i am sure Alyxander would too.

      • Alyxander M Folmer

        Thank you so much for your support! It’s fantastic to see so many good people out there who are willing to fight for what’s right.

    • Bianca Bradley

      I wasn’t going to comment but here goes…

      gen·o·cide [jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA

      noun

      the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

      Origin:
      1940–45; < Greek géno ( s ) race + -cide
      Related forms

      gen·o·cid·al, adjective

      Dictionary.com Unabridged
      Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2014.
      Cite This Source

      |

      World English Dictionarygenocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd) — nthe policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group [C20: from geno-, from Greek genos race + -cide ]

      So do site where this white genocide is taking place, or at least own up to using hyperbole

      Harassment

      981 53.5K

      Download article as a PDF

      "Harassment" refers to a broad number of behaviors that are subject to both criminal punishment and civil liability. On the criminal side, states have a wide variety of criminal laws forbidding harassment in many forms, including general harassment crimes as well as specific forms of harassment, such as stalking and cyberstalking.

      - See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/harassment.html#sthash.3F607t2l.dpuf

      How is he harassing kids? Show some of this proof please?

      Fine I get it you and him have differing opinions. Whatever. I fully support the 1st amendment in you speaking your mind and saying point of view. I don't agree with it, but I hold the 1st amendment as sacred.

      But if your point of view is up to snuff in a debate, then why the heck can you post it here, with links and good sources to support it, without having to challenge to get him on as a guest? Are you that hard up for guests?

      Edited to add, do please show where he referred to white people as hate slurs? You have his article, copy and paste where this alleged slur of white people happened?

      • Kevin Phelps

        I hosted a debate with the Director of the world’s largest Anti-Racism Organization…. if he got pwnd – then the average anti-white stands ZERO CHANCE

        • Bianca Bradley

          Your sentence makes no sense. It doesn’t answer anything I said. Now you are just chest beating.

        • xJane

          Link?

        • xJane

          Link?

    • Jake Adams

      I’d like to see a debate as long at it is an actual debate and not you yelling and discounting any opinion that isn’t yours. I would love to hear some of your arguments. I also would love if you refrained from using all CAPS on words. It makes me want to pull out my bullet proof vest and throw myself in front of Alyxander.

      • Bianca Bradley

        Sheesh. If you are going to take off your vest, at least use it as a more practical thing. You can always use it like others use pillows in a pillow fight

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      Point#1-
      By referring to “racist” and “white supremacist” as “hate slurs” you’re implying that I am using these to identify all white people. This simply isn’t true. When I say “racist” or “white supremacist” I’m referring to someone who has specifically chosen to endorse policies and practices that fall under that definition.

      rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
      noun
      1.
      a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various
      human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually
      involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right
      to rule others.

      This is no more a “slur” than calling a member of the GOP a Republican.
      I made no judgement based on your race. That’s your schtick, not mine.

      Point #2-
      I did not “harass” anyone. That would imply that the cowards were even willing to show their faces. You can’t harass someone who isn’t there.
      AND

      These were not “kids”. These were fully grown adults who were well aware of the ignorance they were promoting, and the response it was likely to receive. If you’re going to use a rhetorical device like “what about the children” to try and drum up sympathy (which is not terribly likely here), at least learn to use it properly.

      • xJane

        Ohhhh, please do it. I’ll bring popcorn.

        • Kevin Phelps

          xJane – if he won’t do the audio debate – he’ll get pwnd

          #1 You have referred to ANYONE who objects to White Genocide as “White Supremacist” and or Racist

          Under YOUR OWN definition of RACISM
          Objecting to the GENOCIDE of a race does NOT imply ANY notion of RACIAL SUPERIORITY

          You demonize whites and call them Hate Slurs if they object to a program of GENOCIDE which YOU support. That is known as COMPLICITY in GENOCIDE

          #2 See #1

          Many of them out there WERE YOUNG KIDS

          • xJane

            #0: I find that unlikely, hence my encouragement of it. But you’re right, it’s best not to feed thurses. Of course, the Nye/Ham “debate” was pretty awesome.

            • Kevin Phelps

              oh but i can assure you lol when it comes to discussing / debating White Genocide… it’s best to just call white people hate slurs , if you debate it you’re going to make OUR points FOR US.

          • Bianca Bradley

            1. You have yet to show any conclusive proof of this Genocide. Not being able to get enough dates of white girls does not equal Genocide.

            2. If young kids were out there being exposed to a counter protest, that’s up to their parents. You don’t get to yell you harassed kids, to make Alyxander feel bad, or to make him into a meany pooh pooh head. The parents or relatives brought the kids, they should have expected or known the consequences, if they didn’t that’s their own darn fault.

            • Kevin Phelps

              Some of the kids are 16 – they don’t hate ANYBODY – yet you guys are calling them DEROGATORY SLURS and DEMONIZING them just for opposing the destruction of their own people.

              IF IT ISNT GENOCIDE – WHY THE F^%# are you trying to MAKE IT GENOCIDE?

              • Bianca Bradley

                16 is not a kid. That is an adolescent. If they didn’t hate anybody, why are they going to a white supremacist gathering.

                Saying if it isn’t Genocide, why are you trying to make it Genocide is not an argument.

                How have you managed to PWN anyone with these debate points?

                • Kevin Phelps

                  YOUR entire argument is –

                  “If White kids OPPOSE the destruction that I DEMAND OF THEM, I am going to demonize, harass, threaten, and do EVERYTHING possible to make them shut up”.

                  YOU ARE MAKING IT GENOCIDE

                  • Bianca Bradley

                    Where. Again where did I argue that. Copy and paste or again I hate to say it , the word is Libel

          • RK

            He will get “pwned” (Gah, please go back to your X-box) only in your mind because you select the definitions of words to suit you instead of how virtually EVERYONE else understands them.

            You are a dinosaur that’s still looking for the tarpit with your name on it.

            And NONE of them were out there. What part of that are you not getting?

      • Bianca Bradley

        Oh Gods can we be done with the think of the children meme already, pretty please?

  • Sunweaver

    I’m thinking some folks need to look up what the word “genocide” means. They are confused. Racism is so not sexy. Using religion as an excuse for it? Gross. Well done, sir.
    I approve this message.

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      Thank you :)
      As far as I’m concerned, if they have to hide behind their religion in order to justify their actions, then they already know it’s wrong. They just don’t want to admit it.

      • Bianca Bradley

        I’m not even sure he has stated his religion. He’s stated a lot of ignorant stances on the definition of Genocide and an ignorance in how the law defines it.

    • Kevin Phelps

      The law on Genocide is CLEAR – if you destroy a race by ANY method, its GENOCIDE.

      Deliberately flooding EVERY and ONLY white countries with hundreds of millions of non-whites and forcibly assimilating them into “MELTING POTs”. We ALL know the purpose of a melting pot, and we all know the result of turning EVERY and ONLY white countries into melting pots..

      CLEAR TARGETED GENOCIDE plain and simple

      • Bianca Bradley

        I don’t think you understand the law. Genocide involved killing and or exterminating people. Not turning former white communities into something more diverse(and frankly if white communities don’t like it they end up selling and moving).

        You are basically saying that adding in more melatonin to the dating pool exterminates the Caucasians. That isn’t genocide.

        • Kevin Phelps

          I dont think you understand the law – it states SPECIFICALLY that killing is just ONE WAY to commit Genocide.

          We all know if EVERY & ONLY black countries were having their race globally destroyed in “Melting Pots”, you would scream GENOCIDE.

          But since you are Anti-White, and you support this destruction, you try to EXCUSE and JUSTIFY it

          • Bianca Bradley

            Go ahead argue the law with me,http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

            International legal

            Info on Genocide from Interpol. http://www.interpol.int/Crime-areas/War-crimes/Legal-framework

            Legal dictionary term

            http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/genocide

            Go ahead, just argue the law with me. Double dog dare ya.

            In the U.S the killing part would be under first degree murder, here have another legal link
            http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/first-degree-murder-overview.html

            Other examples would be, oh when we forcibly sterilized the Native American women, earlier in this century. Removing people off their land, giving small pox blankets(though I believe historians have debunked that) to native Americans. Oh the Holocaust is Genocide. Rwanda would be a recent example.

            You not being able to get a date is not Genocide.

            • Kevin Phelps

              So your argument is that ALL genocides in History could be justified by saying “IT’S OK THAT WE ARE PUSHING YOUR DESTRUCTION BECAUSE YOU SHOULD HAVE HAD MORE BABIES! ITS NOT OUR FAULT THAT YOU CANT GET A DATE!”

              You anti-whites are EXTREMELY disgusting “people”

              • xJane

                Your definition of genocide (which I accept) included the requirement that there be “intent to destroy”. Can you show such intent? All the genocides that Bianca Bradley cited were intentional acts. The “MELTING POTs” that you keep complaining about are, as far as I can tell, voluntary. No one is raping women to force them to bear mixed-race children. The only “force” is that you have to be okay living next to someone of a different race. Is that what you’re complaining about? That’s hardly genocide. And it’s extremely offensive to victims of actual genocide for you to claim that they are in any way similar.

                • Kevin Phelps

                  xJane – the author of this article shows HIS intent – MANY of the commenters show THEIR intent.

                  • xJane

                    The author’s intent appears to have been to show his disagreement with the viewpoint of the intended demonstration in a peaceful manner. How is that “intent to destroy” anything?

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      correct – the author believes Genocide is ACCEPTABLE – and he wants to harass those who OPPOSE genocide… thats my POINT

                    • xJane

                      Wait, so a peaceful demonstration is genocide? I am not following that logic.

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      That’s because you are following the defined definition of genocide, not the one you have squint at, cock your head at and beat into the square hole with a mallet, even if it is originally round.

                  • Bianca Bradley

                    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/intent

                    That is the legal definition of intent. You have failed to prove intent.

                • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

                  The eradication of indigenous Tasmanians by the British government is deemed a genocidal act, but it was not intentional. In fact, the very fact that it was thoughtlessness is actually more horrific.

                  I dispute the need for intent in a definition of genocide. But I also dispute the claims of genocide of “white people”. It is hyperbole in order to allow the inferior of mind to feel justified in their irrational emotions.

                  • xJane

                    That’s a fair point—genocide may not need to be intentional.

          • Bianca Bradley

            OH and yeah melting pots are a good thing. Where the heck else can you go out and order Chinese food(non americanized) Greek, Italian, soul food, Indian, Japanese or a fushion of all of them, if not in places that have melting pots.

            As a foodie, your darn right I suppport melting pots. Tziki sauce is friggen awesome. So is Tiramisu. Sushi is just flipping yummi as well.

            • Kevin Phelps

              Your inability to read recipes does not justify the genocide of an entire race of children.

              • Bianca Bradley

                Perfectly capable of reading recipes. Perfectly capable of cooking and doing a darn good job of it. Reading recipes does not give you the taste or culture of various places.

                Also I gave the legal definition of a genocide. So far your arguments are invalid. Go back and do your homework and argue the law with me, when you actually understand the law. Yelling you are a dumb meany pooh pooh head is not a debate technique.

                Oh and I’m winning and your not:P

                • Kevin Phelps

                  You never put up the legal definition of Genocide – because if you DID – people would see that I am CORRECT that its genocide and YOU are just an anti-white sociopath :)

                  Article II Section C – and i will NOTE Bianca that there is NOTHING that excludes a group just because YOU hate them.

                  Art. 2. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

                  (a) Killing members of the group;
                  (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
                  (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
                  (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
                  (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

                  • Bianca Bradley

                    Go up and read. I gave you the interpol, I gave you another international definition and I gave you the legal dictionary definition, that also gave the context.

                    Your inability to go to the links and read is not my problem.

                    And while you have copy and pasted stuff, nothing you are arguing meets that description.

                    Having a diverse community is not
                    A,
                    nor is it B
                    or C
                    or D or E

                    Show some actual legal justification of this and not just your asinine emotional outbursts.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      Since you were afraid to post the law – I just did… and once again… JUST BECAUSE YOU HATE A RACE – DOESNT MEAN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DELIBERATELY DESTROY THAT RACE

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Clearly you are unable to read

                      Preventgenocide.org, gave the definiiton and the law

                      so did interpol
                      so did
                      legal-dictionary.link. If you look below, you can even see the post.

                      I even gave you the legal terms of premedidated murder aka murder int he 1st degree

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      So YOUR argument is again “If I hate a race, i should be able to legislate their destruction, as long as it isnt violent”.

                      and I’m telling you – THAT AINT GONNA CUT IT under the law

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Where did I say if you hate a race you can legislate their destruction? Copy and paste a quote of me saying that.

                      Also it aint gonna cut it under the law, since you fail to understand what the law means, and what constitutes the law, does not faze me.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      thats your ENTIRE ARGUMENT – you just havent come out and said blatantly that you HATE white children.

                      But your ENTIRE argument is that you SHOULD be able to legislate the destruction of a race that you hate…. and im pointing out…

                      Thats not going to cut it under the law

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Where, I told you copy and paste the quote. Find it and copy and paste it.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      EVERYONE can see your arguments, its obvious to everyone that you hate whites… OTHERWISE you wouldnt be arguing that you should have the ability to destroy them.

                      Perhaps you can get an anti-white to lie for you on this fact, but that’s all they would be doing

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Cleary you can’t find the quote. So making stuff up and saying I typed somethign I didn’t, that you can’t bother to copy and paste in this thread, is tantamount to libel

                      http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/libel

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      EVERYBODY knows that if someone was making EXCUSE after EXCUSE after EXCUSE as to why black children should be forced into destruction…. it would be OBVIOUS that person hates blacks

                      Its OBVIOUS that you are anti-white and genocidal

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Nope, you said I wanted white children to be destroyed. I told you to show where I said that. Your backpedalling of EVERYBODY is not an excuse to be libelous.

                      I told you go ahead and argue the law. I showed you legal links, that would be accepted in a academic setting. You have shown no proof, no cases, nada.

                      You have taken one of the definitions of genocide and applied it very liberally that less white kids will be born in a diverse community. You forgot to take into account that in a diverse community in the U.S that the woman or man has the right to choose to date others that aren’t Caucasion. Forced sterilization is a part of the Genocide, because they aren’t having a choice in that.

                      You are loosing.

                      So where is your proof? I gave you examples in history that would be considered genocidal. I haven’t seen any proof, or supporting evidence of anything. Caps lock isn’t proof.

                      I wasn’t expecting any, because you never answered my first question either. You never showed proof of Alyxander harassing kids. You haven’t shown proof that he hates whites. You haven’t shown any proof of anything.

                      SO you lost, I won

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      When i pointed out that delibrately floording and forcibly assimilating EVERY and ONLY white countries into MELTING POTS – the OBVIOUS result is the global genocide of whites…..

                      your argument was “we are legally able to destroy whites under law”.

                      Your argument was NOT that it was destruction – it obviously IS. Your argument was taking a sociopath approach that you should HAVE THIS RIGHT TO DESTROY A RACE that you hate

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Nope, that isn’t an argument

                      COPY AND PASTE THE QUOTE. Otherwise it is libel.

                      where is anyone forcibly assimilating or whatever floording is. Where? People don’t have to buy homes in diverse neighborhoods or rent. It’s just incredibly difficult to buy or rent in only white enclaves.

                      People don’t have to have sex with people that are outside their own race, that is their own choice, and their choice to stay in their race. IT’s also their choice to stay in their own gender or go to an opposite gender.

                      Noen of what you are saying comes close to what you are implying.

                      so SHOW THE PROOF ALREADY.

                    • xJane

                      Where do you find proof of “delibrately floording and forcibly assimilating EVERY and ONLY white countries into MELTING POTS”?

                      Do you mean the voluntary migration of humanity from one country to another? Are you favoring closed borders?

                      Do you mean the voluntary intermarriage of people of diverse backgrounds, including culture, ethnicity, race, and religion? Are you favoring anti-miscegenation laws?

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      i mean that YOU are making EXCUSE after EXCUSE after EXCUSE to destroy whites and prevent them from having ANYTHING other than DESTRUCTION.

                      You asked to show INTENT, then YOU SHOW YOUR INTENT

                    • xJane

                      I see no excuses. I see only questions. I am neither intending to “destroy whites” nor actually destroying anything. I’m trying to find out what proof you have of any of this.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      We ALL know the purpose of a melting pot, we ALL know the result of forcing EVERY and ONLY white countries into melting pots.

                      You say whites should have NO OTHER CHOICE but destruction…. then you ask me to show you that people have INTENT on destruction?

                    • xJane

                      Other than for delicious fondue? It is “a metaphor for a heterogeneous society becoming more homogeneous, the different elements “melting together” into a harmonious whole with a common culture” (Wikipedia).

                      Metaphors do not destroy—they are metaphors.

                      And again, I see only voluntary acts by consenting members of various ethnic groups—you’ve still not provided any proof of “intent to destroy”.

                      I don’t recall saying “whites should have NO OTHER CHOICE but destruction”. Can you show me where I said that?

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      Lets see – demanding that Whites have

                      NO COUNTRIES
                      NO STATES
                      NO COUNTIES
                      NO CITIES
                      NO TOWNS
                      NO VILLAGES
                      NO NEIGHBORHOODS
                      NO SCHOOLS

                      then saying its VOLUNTARY? So what you are saying is that you should be able to get away with GENOCIDE as long as you pretend its an ACCIDENT

                      You arent FOOLING anyone – you arent smart – you arent clever – and you WILL be exposed and brought to justice

                    • xJane

                      Where have I demanded this? No one is forcing anyone to marry anyone else in the United States. See comment above about breeding.

                      Can you define “white” for me?

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      You have said that ANYONE who opposes these policies should be CALLED NAMES, HARASSED, AND THREATENED

                      You defined WHITE by saying a WHITE person is ANY person that you would consider RACIST or WHITE SUPREMACIST for objecting to the destruction of their race

                    • xJane

                      Where did I say that?

                      It appears as though your strategy for “winning” is to keep making unfounded accusations, frequently in all caps, and ignoring the actual arguments that are being made. You’re right—I no longer think the author should attempt to engage you in debate.

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      0.0
                      I’m not demanding anyone have no countries, unless it impedes the sovereignty of the U.S, then we will have an issue.

                      14th amendment makes sure that all Americans are equal regardless of race and it applies to the states. That means in the 1950′s the Supreme court also made sure that separate but equal was not a good argument.

                      It is voluntary. We vote in our representatives, and the President, who puts in place the Judges.

                      Other countries, thats their issue.

                    • xJane

                      I can’t see those arguments. I see nothing in Bianca Bradley’s responses that even gets close to the insinuation that she hates “whites”, “white children”, or children. Or that she wants to destroy anything—other than your arguments, from a logical perspective (something she is doing quite handily).

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      You will make EXCUSE after EXCUSE after EXCUSE after EXCUSE after EXCUSE after EXCUSE as to why white children MUST be forced into conditions that lead to their genocide.

                      Then you ask me to show you that there is INTENT…………lol

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Puts in earplugs.

                      still winning oh sorry pwning.

                    • xJane

                      What you put in all caps is correct, but neither here nor there as no one on this thread has said they hate whites (although there have been some insinuations of hatred of other races) and you have offered no proof that anyone is trying to destroy the “white race”.

                      It’s also extremely problematic to try to call “white” a race. See: Hibernophobia, Italophobia, the historic and present genetic makeup of Egyptians, Proto-Indo-European Aryans vs. “German Aryans”, and the indigenous peoples of the Caucasus Mountains. “White” is a really non-technical term, especially as applied to race, so you’re going to have to do better. Are you talking about the “Irish race” (if so, which “Irish race”? Anglo-Saxon, Anglo, Saxon, Norse, Scots, Ulster, Welsh, …) or perhaps a different flavor of “white”?

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      now you try to dehumanize white children by trying to negate their existence, this is what ALL purveyors of Genocide have done in history – dehumanize their targets

                    • xJane

                      Whoa, where did dehumanization of white children come from? I’m saying you can’t define “white race”. (Or asking you to please do so.)

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      I will use YOUR definition of White.

                      A White person is ANY person who YOU would call a WHITE SUPREMACIST RACIST for opposing the destruction of their people

                    • xJane

                      I never defined “White”, so you will have to. What is your definition?

                    • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

                      So, I’m not white? Interesting.

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Nope, Your a black square with red eyes:P

                    • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

                      Aye, but I look good. ;)

                  • xJane

                    Presumably you intend (c) to somehow mean “must have their race destroyed in a melting pot”. But you have not shown any forced melting of anyone anywhere. There are historical instances of attempts to “breed out” race, but they involve rape and child theft. Is that happening in Arizona?

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      Whites in Europe and America didnt VOTE to have their races destroyed in a melting pot – anti-whites like YOU demand it.

                    • xJane

                      Again, there’s no proof that anyone is having “their races destroyed in a melting pot”—and certainly no proof of either intent or force.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      Turning America from 90% white to less than half of the births is CLEARLY genocide.

                      Turning France from 100% white to a non-white majority within a few decades is CLEARLY genocide

                      Turning England from 100% white to a non-white majority within a few decades is CLEARLY genocide

                      You saying that ANY white person who objects to this destruction should be HARASSED, INTIMIDATED, THREATENED or JAILED is CLEARLY showing your INTENT and your COMPLICITY

                    • xJane

                      You have not shown any “intent” for “Turning America from 90% white” (when was it 90% white?) so it is clearly not genocide (under your definition, which I accepted). Similarly for France and England.

                      I have seen no evidence—and you have provided no proof—of harassment, intimidation, threats, or jail time for anyone. There was a peaceful counter-protest planned—is that harassment? intimidation? a threat? jail time?—this happens all the time when two groups of people disagree.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      You have STATED – that ANYONE who objects to this program is a RACIST WHITE SUPREMACIST and should be HARASSED……………. YOU HAVE SHOWN YOUR INTENT

                    • xJane

                      Where?

                    • Bianca Bradley

                      Errr America was never 90 percent white. The south was largely black for a long time, even when slavery was real. In fact due to the south being very black, they had to do some calculating to figure out how to get the south enough representation in Congress.

                      You are also forgetting the various Native American tribes. You are forgetting the Asians. You are also forgettting the large Latin population in the southwest. Should I mention the various immigration waves?

                      England and France stuff is due to immigration. That is their sovereign right. You really don’t have much say in it, unless you are a citizen.

      • xJane

        “ONLY white countries” like those found in North America? …oh wait.

        • Kevin Phelps

          I use the “anti-racists” definition of a white country.

          A White country is ANY country that must have their race destroyed in a melting pot.

          • xJane

            So, Brazil, a “melting pot” of indigenous peoples as well as both African and European immigrants, is a “White country”?

            • Kevin Phelps

              Anti-Whites arent demanding massive immigration into Brazil :) “Anti-Racists” only demand this of WHITE countries.

              Because anti-racists demand white kids be forced into GLOBAL Genocide

              • xJane

                You just said that a “White country is ANY country that must have their [sic] race destroyed in a melting pot”. The indigenous population of Brazil was subjected to a melting pot, so it fits your definition of “White” country. Are you now changing your definition to be “ANY country that Anti-Whites demand to have their race destroyed in a melting pot”? Also, how does a country have a race? Do you mean the indigenous race of that country? How far back do you want to go to determine what “indigenous” means?

                • Kevin Phelps

                  Well you want to go back to 300 years ago to determine what indigenous means – because if you go back tens of thousands of years like scientists have – Europeans were in America first

                  • xJane

                    Well, that’s the thing. If you keep going back, we all end up in Africa.

                    There is no scientific definition of race—it’s pretty much in the eye of the beholder (see: my prior comment about attempting to define “white race”). Humans are the only species that has “race”, all others are classified only down to “subspecies”. If you go back 50 years, you get some indigenous populations, if you go back 300, you get different ones—this is the same in multiple countries and on multiple continents. Asian peoples were in Europe before Europeans were (they didn’t become European until they got there)—so does that mean that Asians were in America first?

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      So if the KKK wanted to genocide blacks – you would be ok with that because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS RACE?

                      Of course not – once again you want to DEHUMANIZE white children by negating their existence

                      ONCE AGAIN SHOWING YOUR INTENT

                    • xJane

                      Once again, where do you get dehumanization of children—of any color?

                    • Kevin Phelps
                    • xJane

                      o.O

                    • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

                      Actually, domesticated livestock have “breeds”, which is about the closest we get to “races” in non human animals.

                      People dislike connecting the two, though.

                      Essentially they are just cosmetic differences – mild variance within genetic species.

                      For the record, I will point out that most pedigree breeds of pet have associated health problems whilst the “mongrels” show far more robust health.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      ahhh so you are going with the “We MUST force white children into genocide to create our SUPERIOR RACE” argument?

                      Yes I’ve heard the master race justification before by anti-whites, and apparently it happened back in the 40s and they had to hang… anti-whites WILL be brought to justice I can assure you

                      “Anti-Racists” say we MUST blend together to become one race (But only in white countries). Since evolution states that races branched out from a common ancestor, then what YOUR proposal is that we REVERSE evolution and GO BACK to this primitive form of hominid by mixing BACK together. Thats called DEVOLUTION, the opposite of evolution

                    • xJane

                      This just shows a complete lack of understanding of evolution.

                    • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

                      No, I’m not.

                      I’m going with “any differences are superficial” and also “if you prefer a specific breed of human, they you are free to make that choice, as is anyone else”.

                      My proposal is freedom. Freedom for everyone to choose.

                      I am not anti hue of any kind. I am, however, quite happily anti sub-intellect.

                    • xJane

                      Ah, breeds! Yes, that’s probably the analogous one. And the “mixing” of breeds to produce robust offspring is known as “hybrid vigour”.

                    • Kevin Phelps

                      and by the way – if you are saying there is NO SUCH THING AS RACE – then you are saying HUMAN EVOLUTION IS IMPOSSIBLE since the FOUNDATION OF ITS PROBABILITY RELIES ON RACE BEING REAL…. YOU CANNOT BRANCH WITHOUT RACE

                    • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

                      Actually, that is species, not race.

                  • Bianca Bradley

                    No, tens of thousands of years, that would be the Aisians http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0903_030903_bajaskull.html

                    http://csfa.tamu.edu/who.php

                    Nhow throw down your sources

                  • ChristopherBlackwell

                    Obviously don’t know much about archeology. Some of the oldest people were first in South America were what we today Australian Aborigines we are talking twenty and thirty thousand years ago maybe farther back. Dont forget the Ployneisians here were sailing the Pacific before our Europeans ancestors were leaving the sight of land and traveling up the middle of the Pacific. Then there were thse pesky Asians 15,000. Now after that we indeed may have had some early Europeans. Might I say if being White is what you have to brag about you havent done much have you?

  • Harping Hawke

    That was awesome. Thanks for going to counter protest.
    PS, I love the sign.

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      Unfortunately, my medium of choice is graphite. I can’t paint worth a darn! XD
      I’m glad you liked the article! The counter protest was an awesome experience. Watching those chest thumping “Proud White Men” run away with their tails between their legs was awesome, and meeting a those AMAZING people who were willing to stand up to these racists was even better.
      I’m not one to tell people “You should protest this!!”, and I don’t judge people who aren’t interested in holding up a sign for hours on end, but I will say that it’s a unique and interesting experience.

      • Harping Hawke

        It certainly sounds interesting. If I didn’t have issues with crowds, I’d be out there as much as I could!
        (And yeah, I know exactly what you mean about the inability to paint…)

  • Elizabeth

    Thank you for doing this (and I do like the sign! Better than I could do).

    I’m glad your Facebook page exists. The racists are such a disappointment to humanity. Anytime in the last few years I’ve wanted to learn about my ancestors, the lives they lived, and the Gods they believed in, people like these “white man march” (ew) guys have made me turn around and walk right back out.

    It’s really nice to see that they don’t represent all Heathens. Thank you.

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      Unfortunately, the racist element of our community is both vocal AND well organized, but they are still in the minority. There are good, safe, Heathen communities. I firmly believe that if we would stop ignoring the problem and take a firm stance, we CAN overcome this stereotype of the “racist Heathen”. That’s a fight we can win.

  • Mikal

    When I first looked into heathenry I ran into this issue, and it kept me from seriously considering it further for at least a few years. Racism of all types is still alive and well in america unfortunately, it’s good to see some people are still willing to stand up against it when possible.

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      Racism within our community may not be a thing of the past, but I’m convinced that it COULD be. There are enough of us who oppose this bigotry that I believe we really could drive it out. (given time and gumption)

  • http://roseanngrove.wordpress.com Roseann Grove

    I’m so glad to see this discussion, and to see it written by someone genuinely interested in interfaith relations. I have been trying to watch the film “Wagner and Me” for over a week now, and I can only watch it in short clips before I get emotionally overwhelmed. We still have a way to go, but this conversation is such a nice thing to see. Thank you, Alyxander Folmer.

  • yewtree

    Great to know that the march was cancelled because so many good people showed up to protest it.

    And great to know that so many Heathens supported your oppsition to the march and to white supremacists in general.

    White supremacists are scum.

  • xJane

    Thanks for this article. As I’ve discussed on your site, I’m leery of telling people I’m Heathen because of the assumption (in the non-Heathen community) that Heathen = racist (oh, hai, complaints about casting Idris Elba in a comic book movie that shares a name with a Heathen god).

    I’m so glad that you made a sign and went out there to counter-protest! I’m so glad that your sign made it clear that you were Heathen and called them out for bringing shame on everyone (humanity, Americans, Heathens, Arizonans, living beings…). I’m so glad that your fb page lost those followers. I’m so glad that you got so many positive comments.

    Thank you and hail.

  • http://paganarch.blogspot.com/ rhyd wildermuth

    There’s no emoticon which would accurately depict how much this makes me smile.

    Ye’r awesome.

    • xJane

      “:DDDDDDDDD”, I think. Add “D”s as appropriate ;)

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      That means a lot coming from you :)

  • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

    I think what you have done is great.

    Too often I see the “not real Heathen” line thrown out when this kind of racist crap comes out.

    The implication that you can’t be Heathen and racist is avoidance of an unsavoury issue.

    Saying that “yes, there are racists within the heathen umbrella, but they are not the norm” is far better than trying to convince people that these people who, for all intents and purposes are Heathens, are not “real” Heathens is a great way of accepting something within the wider heathen culture needs dealing with and also educating those outside of Heathenry that racism is not an intrinsic aspect of our religious umbrella.

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      I object to the “No True Scottsman” fallacy, so I made a point to avoid it :)

      • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

        I draw lines, so there are “true Scotsmen” (they live north of the wall), but I make a point to keep politics and religion separate.

        Simply put, there are arseholes in every religion. The Nazitru are our Westboro.

        • Alyxander M Folmer

          The Nazitru are our Westboro.
          -YES. THAT.

  • Ed Larson

    So I was Raised “heathen” by my very very Swedish grandparents as were they by theirs and so on and so on. My kids are blonde haired blue eyed little heathens. I sail a small boat I built myself. I hold blots and sumbles and celebrate the gods. the idea that racism has anything to do with my faith is the most infuriating nonsense!!! We are from a line of the most open welcoming people on earth! we had very modern ideas on womens right IE” they were actually people” back in the seventh century! We accepted anyone who would trade and work with us all the way from the Lapland to Jerusalem and the African coast! the idea that racial purity ever mattered to our people is a construct of post ww1 german propaganda and should be treated as such. We much accept that some racist mouth breathers call themselves heathen as some call themselves Christian. I am so very proud that so many have found this path and I am even more proud that so many will allow this corruption of spirit and faith to stand! Hail and may the allfather watch over you and the norn weave your fates with golden thread!

  • Treeshrew

    Well done with your counter-protest! Do you have a link for your Fox News interview by any chance?

    • Alyxander M Folmer

      Sadly, I do not.
      They didn’t post it on their website. I could buy the footage (for $160 !!!) but I would not be allowed to post it online or share it in any way. Very upsetting.

      • Treeshrew

        Shame they didn’t, it would have been good to hear some pagan representation on Fox.

  • Furor Teutonicus

    What I really hate about you social justice types is that you cannot handle dissenting opinions. Everyone must be like you. You are the very thing you claim to hate. Thankfully you are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, a fart in history’s timeline.

    • Lēoht “Sceadusawol” Steren

      An interesting stance and one that I am actually inclined to agree with.

      The intolerance of intolerance is, by its very nature, hypocritical. The question is, is hypocrisy necessarily bad?

      There is also the false equivalency argument that can be played. Is hating racial prejudice the same as having racial prejudice? I would say that they are two different forms of intolerance but the difference is what makes them key.

      Someone can campaign for equal rights for people of colour whilst still being a sexist bigot, for example.

      In the case of the article, what we have is someone who is showing the wider (uneducated) public that Heathenry does not necessarily include racial intolerance.

      Amusingly, Heathenry could be shown to support slavery, if going through an ultra-traditionalist model. But it would be equal rights slavery. ;)

      • Furor Teutonicus

        People must have a right to self-determination whether you like their opinions or not. Attempting to impose views on others in nothing short of fascism.

    • ChristopherBlackwell

      Furor

      I think you badly need to take a DNA test. Then you will discover you are not completely white because such a thing does not and cannot exist especially i this country. I can trace my linage back 12 generations. However official linage ignors most of your ad my ancestry. Let me explain. Your parents are from two families you grand parents are from four families , you great grand parents are from eight different families. By the time you go back twelve generations you have 1090 families that are your direcct ancesters and you know about one or two families at most. So like the dumb guy trying to create a all white town in North Dakota no one is all white. Race had not yet been invented in our acient ancestors times and they intermated with just about everyone down the line. So all that is left is that we are human. If you trace every person linage down it goes back Africa. Neither them nor the early Europeans were white. White had not been invented yet it took tens of thousand of years to have nature invent the light skinned human.


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