The Shugden Cult, Dalai Lama Protests, Race, and Genocide

Last month, when the Dalai Lama was in Oslo on the 25th anniversary of his Nobel Peace Prize, he and supporters were confronted with crowds of protesters calling him, among other things, a False Dalai Lama and a persecutor of worshippers of Dorje (or Dolgyal) Shugden, a protector deity associated with the Dalai Lama’s Geluk school of Tibetan Buddhism.

In gathering background on the situation, we looked at two prominent scholars of Tibetan Buddhism, Georges Dreyfus and Robert Thurman (who uses the term Cult to describe the group), both of whom paint a more favorable picture of the Dalai Lama than of the protesters. In fact, we found no scholars supporting the Shugden group (who refer to themselves often as Shugdenpas), as authentically facing religious persecution under the Dalai Lama or his broader influence. Followers of Shugden addressed Thurman’s article in a forum of their own here.

The group presses its claims, however, and in the wake of the protests they recently posted this video, claiming “shocking revelations from Dalai Lama’s official for Europe”:

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While it’s not necessarily “shocking” it does look like Thubten Wangchen, the monk and Dalai Lama representative being interviewed, was having a hard time substantiating his claims against the Shugden group. The interviewer presses further, asking about signs in shops saying that no Shugden worshipers are to be admitted. Wangchen responds by calling the worship of Shugden a “cancer” in the Tibetan community. As he says this, the video shows an overlay claiming “this is the language of genocide.” Wangchen says it is the right of people to worship Shugden, but it is also the right of businesses to deny them service.

This does raise serious questions for religious freedom, even in the absence of an explicit “ban” on Shugden worship (a ban and ensuing ‘hit-list’ that Dorje Shugden worshippers insist exists). In the US, for instance, various minorities have had to fight for decades for equal services, from the civil rights battles of the 1960s to battles for rights to service for the LGBTQ community in recent years. And similar cases along purely “faith based” lines have made headlines in recent years as well (Bank refuses to serve Christians, Atheist refused service by N.J. notary). And Buddhists in both Burma and Sri Lanka are actively repressing, sometimes violently, people of other religions. Similar violence between Buddhist groups has a long history throughout Asia, including Tibet. And it is this sectarian fighting, ostensibly, that the Dalai Lama has sought to calm by opposing the worship of Shugden.

Speaking for at least some in the Tibetan community, Angry Tibetan Girl posted this (with an image of mostly white Shugden protesters):

Tibetans on Shugden:

Former SFT director Tendor tells a bunch of white shuggie trouble makers to check their privilege.

The Ultimate Insult: After 300 years of colonizing, plundering and devastating the East, the White man in the West now claims they’re the victims of a homeless refugee monk who has no army nor police nor an inch of territory on which to set up a tent? If these people feel oppressed by the Dalai Lama, all they have to do is take off their robes and walk away, back to their edifice of European privilege built largely from the bricks of former colonies.

And last month Tibet House US published a book detailing the history and current situation around Shugden and the New Kadampa Tradition:

Many visitors attending public talks and teachings of the Dalai Lama have been shocked to encounter nearby crowds of angry protesters, people dressed in Tibetan Buddhist monastic robes, proclaiming the Dalai Lama to be a “liar,” “hypocrite,” “dictator,” etc., and accusing him of robbing them of their religious freedom.

Dolgyal Shugden: A History reveals with clear evidence, how these protests have been organized by a Tibetan monk, Kelsang Gyatso, and have been coordinated and populated by his followers, members of his “New Kadampa Tradition.” It also provides in depth research to show how, though the demonstrations purport to object to the Dalai Lama’s repudiation of their worship of the Dolgyal Shugden, considered by most Tibetans to be a mundane, somewhat demonic spirit, their main aim is simply to attack the Dalai Lama by damaging his reputation, in parallel with the present Chinese government’s worldwide attempts to do the same.

This book seeks to clarify the ignorance and misconceptions surrounding the Dolgyal Shugden spirit cult and its relationship with the Dalai Lamas of Tibet, and goes on to further analyze the record and development of the schismatic New Kadampa Tradition, unveiling the cultic structures and dogmas, the financial mechanisms, the international affiliations, and the driving motivations of its leadership that keep it running and expanding its missionary activities.

Shugden supporters seem to have a response of their own to the race issue: Are Buddhists Racist.com. There are also plenty of Tibetan Shugden supporters living in India (which accounts for the signs there -often in Tibetan- refusing service to Shugden worshippers).

So what might have begun as a change of practice policy as a move toward greater ecumenism has become itself a source of strife in the Tibetan Buddhist community. The issue has simmered for decades now and, if anything, is becoming more, not less, complex. Given the increasing activity on both sides, it is unlikely to die down any time soon.

Could mediation (not meditation) be effective? Are there any signs that either side wants to meet in discussion? Could Shugden be transformed into a benevolent protector, stripped of the power and willingness to protect the Geluk ‘tradition through violent means, even including the killing of its enemies’ as Dreyfus pointed out in his article? Could the Tibetan administration enforce rights to service for all customers, despite religious affiliation, wherever it has influence?

  • Kathy K-m

    I would like to know why the Dalai Lama, and all Buddhists, have remained so silent about the genocide against the Rohingya people, in Myanmar?
    Every violent act by a Muslim is blamed on Islam. The Christians are expected to take responsibility for every action of their brethren, going back to the Crusades.
    Yet, Buddhists seem to ignore/distance themselves from the atrocities committed in the name of THEIR faith.
    Why? Did you just hope we wouldn’t notice?

    • Jean Paone

      There are several news articles referring to His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s appeal to Buddhists in Myanmar to end violence against the Muslims in Myanmar. The most recent articles are from Sept 2013 and can be found in huffingtonpost.com and asianews.com If you search on google you will find earlier articles in other news outlets.

    • Karze

      Dalai Lama was first to respond not only to the ethnic strife in Burma but also to Muslims in general after 9/11. He has spoken so many times to media but media like CNN and ABC will cover the White House’s pet dog than the Dalai Lama.

      Do you expect Dalai Lama to stage a hunger strike in Burma where he is being denied a visa and almost every Buddhist countries from Thailand to Sri Lanka except for Japan.

      Thanks this is largely due to Chinese and Corporate West who has become China apologist.

      The Dalai Lama even never spoke strongly or harshly about the Chinese occupation and oppression of Tibet and Tibetans even when asked by media.

      Give me a break. We all know the Western hypocrisy very well while condemning so virulently about the Nazi while forgetting their own hand in decimation of Native People of America’s and Nuking Japan twice burning even the innocent people.

      Do all Caucasian take the responsibilities for the Hitler or Stalin crimes so why should the Dalai Lama take responsibility for the mayhem in Burma which has nothing to do with Dalai Lama.

    • Dane Calderon

      Hundreds of Buddhist leaders sent an open letter to president Obama urging him to speak in defense of the Muslims during his trip to Burma. Unfortunately, the Muslim hating American right wing would use this to destroy the Nobel prize winner for simply acting like one.

    • Dane Calderon

      Buddhists (speaking as one) are bound by every essence of the teachings to condemn the violence against Muslims. We have no religious call to convert Muslims, and we believe that all religions that teach love and compassion are beneficial and beautiful. It wouldn’t be at odds with Islam to practice Buddhist meditation, as we have no God to contradict your belief in Allah. As long as the Muslims are not trying to undermine or converrt Buddhists, then there is absolutely no issue between our faiths. The people attacking Muslims may be Buddhist by definition, but Buddhism is not attacking or counter to Islam. We practice peace, love, compassion. That is our entire religion. I am so sorry for the actions of a few, but they are just people. They are not Buddhism.

  • Luna Kadampa

    Speaking as someone who has relied on the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden for over 30 years, I can say that we have asked for dialogue many times on this issue, and all we have received in return is more insults — that we are spirit worshippers, cultists, and worse. There is very real persecution taking place. If your readers would like to know more, there is an article here that gives reasons why these Buddhist practitioners feel impelled to take to the streets in protest against the Dalai Lama’s ban. http://kadampalife.org/2014/03/05/dalai-lama-please-give-religious-freedom/

    • justinwhitaker

      Many thanks for your comment; my best wishes for progress in this all around.

    • Mick

      Speaking as someone who has relied on the spirit Dorje Shugden for over 6 years, I can say that I never met Shugden people who were able for a dialogue but who want to indoctrinate others with their views that neither match history nor facts. In fact, my NKT teacher said that we don’t exchange with others views (which means that we tell others what the “right view” is and they have to listen.) And since we are right and others are wrong if people hold another view then it follows for us (the NKT people) that the others are liars.

      To reduce religious extremism and a practice that undermines the religious freedom of others (Shugden kills and punishes those who dare to “defile” the Gelug school by studying and practicing also other traditions) is an act to improve religious freedom. The protesters cannot even tell what the “real persecution” is. The protesters can practice Shugden and have their own temples and the Tibetans in India and Tibet can also practice Shugden and have their own temples. The Dalai Lama said clearly that people are free to not accept his advice. And the monasteries decided based on the Vinaya and majority vote to ban Shugden practices at their places because it created too much disharmony and harm. There is not even a general “ban” as the protesters wrongly claim: http://buddhistische-ordensgemeinschaft.de/dbo_statement-shugden-protests-Dalai-Lama.htm

      • ppq

        Thank you for this clarifying post.

  • Atisha’s Cook

    i’m one of the “Shugdenpas”. this is a very emotive topic; because of
    the devotion many Tibetans feel towards the Dalai Lama and the way they
    see him as being inseparable from the Tibetan nation (in its state of
    exile from their homeland) they view anyone, Tibetan or western, who
    speaks out against the Dalai Lama as being necessarily an agent of the
    hated Chinese and, in essence, a devil-worshipper. :( that tends to make discussion difficult!
    in fact, we have been asking the Dalai Lama to enter into dialogue about
    his ban for almost twenty years. to date, unfortunately, he has refused
    all these requests. we are ready when he is.

    • justinwhitaker

      Many thanks for your comment; my best wishes for progress in this.

      • Mick

        A dialogue needs both sides, and if the Israelis would call the Palestinians during public protests “liars, evil, cruel, false, hypocrites”, what basis there is for dialogue? How crazy would this be perceived by the world to attack others baselessly and then to complain about not having a dialogue?

        The protests are not about dialogue or religious freedom but they are the personal battle of Kelsang Gyatso against the Dalai Lama. The protests are “an attempt to dismantle the Dalai Lama’s reputation as a proponent of human rights, tolerance and peace, one that is being carried out with especially fanatical zeal by more recent western adherents of the cult. The question is: cui bono (“To whose benefit”)?”

        http://info-buddhism.com/Dorje_Shugden_Conflict_Dalai_Lama_protests_Thierry_Dodin.html

        • Dane Calderon

          oops replied to the wrong person…

        • Atisha’s Cook

          Tenzin Peljor (“Mick”) – stop lying! you know perfectly well that these strong words are being used by the protestors only now, after YEARS of polite requests for debate, petitions, letters, respectful prayer vigils outside his events, etc., etc. – all of which he simply ignored. he is responsible for the raised voices and the more strident words – and if he refuses dialog to resolve the issue – he, the great proponent of dialog as the only civilised means to solve conflict! – then the only option left to the Shugden people, in order to prevent this great injustice of the destruction of a living, valid lineage of Buddhist instruction being wiped from history simply to fulfil the political ambition of one man, the only option left will be to stop him by taking away his power – his unearned and deceptive reputation. we don’t want to do this – we would be happy to leave him his reputation intact! but in the absence of any other means to defend our lineage, if we must do this, we will. and it is surprisingly easy – all we have to do is reveal the truth about him, and keep repeating it until people start to look beneath his mask. then he will come crashing down. you sense this now, Tenzin. now is the time.

          • Mick

            AC, stop accusing me to lie without having any proof for this. You and the protesters accuse everybody who corrects your false accusations of lying, which means you can neither accept to be corrected nor tolerate another view. Instead to keep your propaganda alive you slander your opponents for lying without having a really good argument that is concordant with the facts and reality. These are just cheap tactics and tools of propaganda. It is natural that you are not taken seriously by those who have knowledge about these things. You seem to misinformed or you forgot the facts, AC. The NKT never started politely but aggressively. In the 1996-98 campaign they called the Dalai Lama “ruthless dictator”, “enemy of the Buddhadharma”, they put centres and Lamas on their list of supporters who explicitly said that they are not supporting the campaign and they were not removed even when they called Kelsang Gyasto directly (see: http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html#The_Conflict_in_the_West ). The NKT via SSC wanted to force the Dalai Lama to sign petitions in which he declares that he said the untruth with respect to Shugden. So the NKT/SSC asked the Dalai Lama to declare that he is a liar, and that he states things that are contrary to his knowledge (see: http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/09/02/trijang-rinpoches-view-about-shugden-dolgyal-a-trouble-maker-and-killing-spirit-the-protesters-never-asked-for-a-dialogue/#dialogue ). Such a mad minded approach is neither polite nor a call for dialogue nor reasonable but stupid fanaticism of misled people and a man full of hate (KG). Shugden is no valid lineage. Neither Tsongkhapa, the Buddha or any great Indian pandit has taught it. It is not really clear if it is a terma either. What ever it is, the Dalai Lama has a right and the authority to advice against it. If you want dialogue you must be reasonable. And BTW, the TGIE offered a dialogue to the NKT in 1996 but it was the NKT who refused that offer. So, AC, yes now is the time to do your homework and to get properly informed and then to use good reasoning and good arguments but not propaganda, slander and untruths. All the best. (You waste your live continuing to repeat propaganda.)

            • Atisha’s Cook

              with respect, Tenzin – you *know* that this is false! it’s disingenuous to say that Buddha or Tsongkhapa never mentioned Dorje Shugden! of course not: as you know, Dorje Shugden did not arise until the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, long after Buddha or Tsongkhapa taught! there are countless Protectors who’ve arisen similarly later and who, whilst being perfectly valid objects of Buddhist prayer, were never mentioned by Buddha. Buddha never mentioned Je Tsongkhapa either, except in somewhat oblique prophecies. you know this!

              but in the end, however much you try to make this an issue of arcane Tibetan history and Buddhist ritual, it is not; it is very simply a matter of religious freedom. you know as well as i do that as soon as the Dalai Lama does what he always *says* everyone should do and shows tolerance towards those he disagrees with by publicly stating that all discrimination and persecution should end towards Buddhists who practise Shugden, at that very moment all the protests will end. that is the inescapable truth. you speak falsely when you say this is a “personal battle”. i believe that you are not stupid, and therefore you’re being dishonest when you keep saying this.

              that’s all i have to say. i know that you’re unlikely to accept this, and there’s really no point playing forum tennis with you, but it is the truth: this is about religious freedom, pure and simple. his speech is powerful, despite his “retirement” – while he continues to stay silent about the well-documented, continuous persecution, he is tacitly supporting it. all he has to do is publicly state, in writing, that it should stop, and *all the protests will stop*. it has nothing to do with any personal battle. that’s all from me: have at it.

              • Mick

                AC, respect my pseudonym. I respect yours too. No discussion until you do this. I also expect an apology for wrongly accusing me of lying. If you want to have a dialogue respect the opponent first.

          • Mick

            BTW, AC, while you are anonymously posting and slandering others, it is only fair to accept that I use a pseudonym too. Though I don’t abuse my pseudonym to accuse others wrongly as you do it.

        • Dane Calderon

          I saw Kelsang essentially call himself a Buddha. He also admitted that only his own books are to be used in the Shugden practice, so initiates aren’t exposed to the real dharma. He has entry level people who are just curious about Buddhism doing advanced tantric deity yoga and taking vows. Apparently the only thing these poor souls learn about is the threat of rebirth in a hell realm if they break their vows and are disloyal. Kelsang will most certainly lack the karma for human rebirth, let alone full blown buddhahood. What does it say about a man who is basically setting himself up to be worshipped? The mansions weren’t enough? This is a cult by definition, and it is especially evil that he is trying to change the entire meaning of Buddhism for personal gain. He is damaging more people than just his own disciples. I’ve studied this intensively, and with a very open heart and open mind. People’s lack of understanding is the Shugden religion’s greatest asset in their fight for acceptance among the Buddhist community. Once people who understand what real practice is supposed to be like realize the things this Kelsang character is actually doing and teaching, they have no choice but to encourage against it. Please, if you are curious about Tibetan Buddhism, do not get your first taste from NKT. Learn the basics from another sangha or from the multitude of time tested age old books out there. Read the books that Kelsang has banned. “The Indestructible Truth” is a fantastic book. “The Words of My Perfect Teacher” is used by all 4 schools of actual Tibetan Buddhism. This is the real deal textbook of Tibet. These books mention Shugden exactly zero times, but they teach the REAL dharma. I encourage Shugdenpas to read these as well. You should know what your leader has banned you from learning.

      • Mick

        BTW, Justin, the TGIE offered a dialogue to the NKT in 1996 but the NKT rejected it. If you read the details of what the NKT claims it would be a call for dialogue you will get aware that they didn’t ask for dialogue but to sign either petitions in which he declares that he told the untruth or they forced him things to do that were not in his hands to do. I summed the issue of dialogue and what the WSS / ISC stated in these two posts:

        http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/09/02/trijang-rinpoches-view-about-shugden-dolgyal-a-trouble-maker-and-killing-spirit-the-protesters-never-asked-for-a-dialogue/#dialogue

        http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/08/23/kelsang-rabten-calls-for-dialogue-at-the-soas-conference-is-dialogue-possible/

    • Diane Hongren

      That is an excellent response – non-emotional and non-confrontational on a very controversial issue. Kudos to you.

    • Dane Calderon

      In what way are you being oppressed? In Tibet, the People’s Republic of China is building Shugden monasteries all over the place and encouraging your practice, so the Tibetans are certainly not being oppressed. The Dalai Lama has the religious freedom to choose NOT to condone a practice that he believes is purely evil. I’m sorry that you’ve devoted some part of yourself to it, but that’s the exact truth of the matter. He researched deeply into Shugden, and his outcome of this research, around 40 years ago, is that Shugden practice and worship is evil. Pure evil. That’s his right as a human to hold that belief.

      • Atisha’s Cook

        he’s welcome to his opinion, despite the undeniable fact (though
        revisionists are now trying to deny exactly this) that his own teachers used to engage in this very practice – the highest Gelugpa Lamas of the Twentieth Century from whom, directly or indirectly, all living Gelugpa masters received their lineage. he can even teach and share his view with others. what he cannot do is to use his influence to make pariahs of all those who choose to stay true to their tradition and carry on with this practice, which is what he is doing. he could end all of this with a simple letter telling ALL Tibetans, and all those who follow him, that they should immediately cease persecuting and discriminating against those Buddhists who continue to rely upon Dorje Shugden. there IS discrimination and persecution, and it exists solely because the Dalai Lama has so far refused to speak out to end it. it is in his hands. we are not asking him to share our views, however indefensible his may be (and one has to ask: why is he afraid publicly or even privately, to debate the issue, if his “research” was as qualified as you appear to believe?). we are simply asking for him to put an end to the discrimination and persecution of innocents that his ban, his words, are causing. that is all.

        • Dane Calderon

          Lies. First, the practice of which you speak is VERY new. What was actually practiced was simmy recognizing Shugden as a minor work protector. There is zero evidence of any of your cult worship of this spirit before the 18th century. You can’t (and shouldn’t want or need to) revise history to justify your beliefs. Just call it what it i: a new form of Buddhism that is categorically different if fundamental ways from traditional Buddhism in Tibet or anywhere else. It is new. Own that fact, and you will find a lot less resistance from people following true millinia old lineages. Second, HH has not banned your religion. Tibet is brimmming with brand new Shugden monasteries, compliments of the People’s Republic of China. If you want to cacallt Chinese Buddhism or something like that, then fair game. But you can’t just commandeer milinia of history to steal cred. That is my biggest issue with the way the ‘Shugden movement’ is behaving. Lots of ego-clinging,chit a lot of concern for the dharma or merit or love shown for all sentient beings. It just stinks of Western selfish me-ism.

          • Atisha’s Cook

            i understand you’ve never actually spent any time talking calmly to Gelugpa Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden. i hope you get the opportunity to do this one day, and to make your mind up about our qualities as Buddhists based on your own perceptions rather than CTA propaganda. we don’t mind so much what you or anyone else thinks about our practices; all we require is the freedom to do them without discrimination or persecution. your accusing me of lying is a case in point: you do this only because of the Dalai Lama’s words, not for any other valid reason. if he told you to respect others’ religious beliefs, including those of Gelugpas such as Je Pabongkhapa, HH Trijang Rinpoche, and all their faithful disciples – the entirety of the Gelugpa masters of this and the last century, then you wouldn’t be so ready to insult someone you don’t even know. (i know “Mick” very well indeed, and he and i both know he’s lying in his post above, so that is different!)

            • Dane Calderon

              I have insulted nobody. I only speak the truth. You are free to your religion. The Dalai Lama has no obligation to legitimize something that he does not believe is valid in TIBETAN Buddhism. Shugden worship is very new (as in, it didnt exist before the 19th century) and is not part of the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, and most of the momentum behind this new flavor is in the West or in China. If you want to call yourselves Tibetan Buddhists, then you have that freedom of speech, but His Holiness also has his freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

              Only the NKT and the Communist Chinese government recognize Shugden worship. Tibetans historically prayed to the World Protector Shugden only (until the 19th century, when about half of the Yellow Hat school started calling Shugden a Buddha).

              If all of your experience in Buddhism comes from NKT and/or Shugden practice, then that would explain why you do not understand.

              Shugdenpas have religious freedom in Tibet. 100% of Tibet is not just allowed but is ENCOURAGED by the Chinese government to practice Shugden worship, mostly to weaken the influence of Tibet’s former political leader and make Tibetans accept their new position as Chinese. China has been building Shugden monasteries all over Tibet to turn Tibetans away from H.H. and his next incarnation, hoping to end the Tibetan Freedom movement in a generation.

              In other words, China is taking advantage of you.

              If you support Tibet’s independence, please stop trying to discredit His Holiness. I hope you simply didn’t understand the political damage your hurtful words are causing.

              Please continue your life as a Shugdenpa and be proud of your new branch of Buddhism. I hope your sanghas flourish and the dharma is spread to all corners of the world. I hope to visit a Shugden sangha and sit with your sangha and meet more Western Buddhists (the fastest growing religion!) and share our mutual love for the dharma.

              But please leave His Holiness out of it. It is important to the Tibetan freedom movement that we all drop this bickering and continue to practice for the benefit of all sentient beings together as one.

              • Atisha’s Cook

                sorry, but you are incorrect on many counts:

                - I have nsulted nobody.

                you called me a liar! i called both “Mick” and the False DL liars, but they both saying things they know to be untrue! (Tenzin/Mick likes very long comments, so he may actually read all this and reply, but i’m through trying to have a reasonable conversation with him – it is pointless.) i am *not* lying; you called me a liar simply because you have false information which makes you disagree with what i’m saying. disagreement is not dishonesty.

                - I only speak the truth.

                i accept that you may believe this.

                - You are free to your religion.

                i am not free to practise my religion free from abuse by people like you, who follow the False Dalai Lama’s words as gospel truth without understanding the reality of the situation. i have MANY Tibetan friends who, whilst “free” to practise their religion in the west or at Serpom and Shar Ganden monasteries, do so under pain of losing contact with their families, their Dharma brothers, their Teachers, of being barred from shops and restaurants and clinics and Gonpas – they are made outcasts in their own communities. you call this freedom? this is Jim Crow revisited.

                - The Dalai Lama has no obligation to legitimize something that he does not believe is valid in Tibetan Buddhism.

                he has no obligation to share our beliefs or to claim that he does. he DOES have an obligation, as a religious leader, to ensure that no-one uses his words to justify discrimination and persecution. but instead of speaking out, he actively encourages this!

                - Shugden worship is very new (as in, it didnt exist before the 19th century) and is not part of the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism.

                this is false. Dorje Shugden aroise in the C17th, with the first prayers to him as an enlightened Dharmapala of Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition being composed by the “Great” 5th Dalai Lama. reliance upon Dorje Shugden is absolutely a “part of the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism”, having been, for example, a main practice of the two foremost Gelugpa masters of the C20th, who were the spiritual fathers of quite literally ALL the current major Gelugpa masters.

                - If you want to call yourselves Tibetan Buddhists, then you have that freedom of speech, but His Holiness also has his freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Only the NKT and the Communist Chinese government recognize Shugden worship.

                what nonsense! what about Shar Ganden & Serpom, for a start! and the dorjeshugden.com people, etc.

                - Tibetans historically prayed to the World Protector Shugden only (until the 19th century, when about half of the Yellow Hat school started calling Shugden a Buddha).

                again, this is nonsense. see above re. the 5th DL.

                - If all of your experience in Buddhism comes from NKT and/or S hugden practice, then that would explain why you do not understand.

                If all of your experience in Buddhism comes from the False Dalai Lama, then that would explain why you do not understand!

                - Yiu have religious freedom.

                you have no idea. please see above re. religious “freedom”.

                - 100% of Tibet is not just allowed but is ENCOURAGED by the Chinese government to practice Shugden worship, mostly to weaken the influence of Tibet’s former political leader and make Tibetans accept their new position as Chinese.

                and whose fault is that? who presented the PRC with this ready-made controversy? it wasn’t Shugden people who started this fight! they didn’t ban any practice. if the PRC make hay with this division, that is hardly surprising. i do not support their doing so, but i am not responsible for it. it is the responsibility solely of the False Dalai Lama who started this schism.

                - If you support Tibet’s independence, please stop trying to discredit His Holiness.

                politics are a very minor consideration for me. i am only really interested in religious freedom. if you had been taught qualified Dharma, then you would understand the very simple truth that Buddhism and politics are completely separate. Shugden practice is Buddhism; Tibet is a political entity. Tibet is NOT Buddhism! there is no natural relationship between them. this is very obvious to most rational people.

                Shugden people are not responsible for weakening Tibet’s position – once again, the person responsible for this is the fool who made Shugden practice into a political issue: the False Dalai Lama. he can stop all this harm to the reputation of Buddhism, and of Tibet, in an instant – by giving, in writing, religious freedom to all Buddhists, including Shugden practitioners.

                - I hope you simply didn’t understand the damage your hurtful words are causing.

                in fact, i do. but once again, i am not responsible for this. don’t shoot the messenger. when a father abuses his children, pointing this out in order to save his children will hurt his wife’s feelings, but it must be done. the only person responsible for this hurt is the abuser, not the whistleblower.

                - Be a Shugdenpa and be proud of you new branch of Buddhism.

                I m a Buddhist follower of Je Tsongkhapa who relies upon the enlightened Dharmapala Dorje Shugden and I am very proud of the lineage of great masters who handed it down and the faithful Sangha who continue this tradition today.

                - I hope your sanghas flourish and the dharma is spread to all corners of the world.

                thank you – genuinely. i also hope and pray that ALL Sanghas flourish, and that the Dharma is spread, in its myriad traditions, to every corner of the world.

                - But please leave His Holiness out of it.

                i swear i will gladly do this – the *second* he writes to all the Tibetan monasteries and communities, telling them that they should not discriminate against or persecute those Buddhists who choose to rely upon Dorje Shugden.

                that is all we want.

                • Dane Calderon

                  post deleted for excessive BS on my part.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  with respect, Dane, i’m not “clinging” to any Buddha or Protector, including Shugden. nor am i being “defensive”. it is completely inappropriate to try to paint the victims in a case of abuse as the cause of that abuse! Dorje Shugden practice is at least as valid as any other Dharmapala practice. if you say, “well then why not switch Protector?” this is really misunderstanding the point. why on earth should we? why should we, as you are suggesting, accept this abuse? is THAT healthy? is it kind to those who have the karma to benefit from this particular manifestation of Buddha, but not another? is it kind to the Dalai Lama, who is perpetrating this abuse? no.

                  he is doing something which is utterly wrong – he is destroying a religious tradition he disagrees with, for his own illogical reasons (and they are illogical, Dane! how can he say this practice of praying to increase one’s wisdom and compassion is shortening his life? he’s 79! how can he say it damages the cause of Tibetan independence, when he himself has abandoned independence many years ago? how can he say it causes Buddhadharma to degenerate into spirit wrship when not a single modern practitioner views Dorje Shugden as a spirit? if he has any valid reason for his ban, then why is he afraid to publicly debate the issue, as Geshe Kelsang and the senior students of Lama Yeshe challenged him to back in the 90s?)

                  it is not a Buddhist action simply to accept this! please don’t, as you seem to be doing, mistake strong words for anger, or wrath for attachment to view. a Bodhisattva incurs a downfall if s/he fails to use wrathful means when necessary and appropriate to protect others from suffering. now is such a time.

                  your argument seems to be that Buddhists should passively accept any harm and allow countless living beings to be harmed, rather than standing up for those who suffer and defending them. this is a complete misunderstanding of the Bodhisattva’s path, and one that tends to be favored by dictators everywhere to keep their victims passive. Je Tsongkhapa’s disciples are too wise for this! we will stand up against delusion, to protect all living beings, including the False Dalai Lama. after all, he is the one in the greatest need.

                • Dane Calderon

                  Now we’re getting somewhere. I think you are a serious practitioner who has parhaps taken the Bhodisattva vows? Respect to you for this. Can you please explain the term “False Dalai Lama”? I see this a lot in threads about Shugden, but I haven’t understood why someone would say this. I don’t personally doubt his rebirth.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  frankly, we only now say this because we’ve spent 18 years attempting to get some dialog – as he always says is the best method to solve differences – with the DL. he has always refused. i believe this is because he knows he has no valid reasons and would lose any debate on this issue. we are reduced to ad hominem attacks because he has left us no other option.
                  False here has two meanings. one is that he was not chosen according to the traditional methods. he was chosen at random by Reting Lama for his own selfish reasons. you can read about this in the pamphlet called “Reting Lama”. this was an open secret in Tibetan society, and in the late fifties a group of high-ranking Lamas wanted to remove the boy from his position as 14th DL, but then the Chinese invaded and HH Trijang Rinpoche persuaded them that now was not the time for such great upheaval, and anyway he was having some success training the boy. thus, Tenzin Gyatso remained despite not having passed any of the traditional tests for a tulku.
                  secondly, his actions are completely opposite to those of a valid monk and spiritual teacher. he has lied about Shugden and his Teachers from the beginning. thus he is false.
                  personally, i feel no need to discuss any of this information publicly. if the DL was doing his job, it wouldn’t matter. but he is destroying a valid spiritual path and if he will not discuss or debate, we must destroy his power by revealing the truth and destroying his reputation. i wish we did not have to do this.

                • Dane Calderon

                  There are stories of Gelug lama’s lives being shortented by Shugden as punishment for practicing Nyingma. If HH believes Shugden is a wrathful spirit used by Shugden in such a way, then his claim that you are shortening his life through Shugden practice is perfectly valid. Does Shugden practice involve asking Shugden to do anything wrathful to non-practitioners or to HH himself? Would Shugden practitioners pray to Shugden to do something to HH to make him accept your demands? I know next to nothing about this, so I’m just curious if any of this is plausable. It would fit the role of a wrathful protector and explain why the images of Shugden show him in a river of blood holding a heart. I imagine that is symbolic of something else, but he is a spooky looking deity. (Please play along with my ignorance. I am like a child asking a parent why the sky is blue with my deep ignorance of Shugden)

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  absolutely not. we view Dorje Shugden as Manjushri appearing as a Dharmapala – it would be complete nonsense to ask a Buddha to harm any living being, and it would break our most basic Buddhist Refuge vows!
                  Protectors are traditionally shown in wrathful aspects. but the blood is not real blood, but the blood of the delusions, our true enemies. the heart in Dorje Shugden’s hand is a heart of compassion, symbolizing his own great compassion for all living beings. many, many Deities appear like this; the Dalai Lama’s own Protector, Palden Lhamo, appears riding on a horse seated on a saddle made from the skin of her son, who she is said to have killed because he opposed the Dharma! none of this is to be taken literally – it is all allegory – symbolism to teach us and lead us along the path to liberation and great enlightenment.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  i have to go now. i’m glad that we’ve been able to get past our initial differences and have a meaningful discussion. thank you for practising Dharma and showing me a good example! may the blessings of Guru Padmasambhava and Dorje Shugden go with you and lead you swiftly to enlightenment. :)

                • Dane Calderon

                  Thanks for chatting. I’ll keep an eye out for your posts in future.

                • justinwhitaker

                  Thanks, both for this conversation. It’s one of the first I’ve seen where both parties asked good, helpful questions and gave honest, thoughtful answers instead of lobbing the same litany of insults and accusations back and forth.

                  Since this is an old post getting relatively few views these days, it would be great to get you two to have a conversation that could be posted as a stand-alone new post. Perhaps something could be put together via email in the next couple days and posted? I can be reached at Buddhistethics@gmail.com – many thanks again.

                • Dane Calderon

                  I’m not sure if this could be recreated naturally, but if AC is okay with it, I would be fine with it being quoted elsewhere.

                • Dane Calderon

                  I will say that the concept of cultivating or including in your practice this idea of wrath is very disturbing. Wrath should only be used my extremely accaccomplished gentrification mediators, and even then, the exercise is to extinguish the wrath. That is extremely dangerous and high end practice that no lay person should be doing. If you have wrathful thoughts that you are keeping in your heart, then we definitely do not practice the same religion. I just wanted to clarify that wrath is poison and is not acceptable.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  hi Dane –

                  that depends on your understanding of wrath. if you mean anger (the deluded belief that some entity other than one’s own karma and delusion is responsible for one’s suffering, and the harmful intentions which arise from this), then you are absolutely right – this has NO place in any religious person’s mind! on the other hand, if you understand wrath as it’s described in Buddhist teachings – as a powerful, forceful compassion that wishes quickly to protect others from suffering and which is prepared to use forceful methods to accomplish that aim, then this is a perfectly valid practice. in fact, when one takes the Bodhisattva’s Vow, one of the downfalls one can incur is *not* to use wrathful means when appropriate! every parent knows that sometimes it’s necessary to shout or be otherwise forceful with their kids, but that this should only ever be to protect and benefit them – never to harm them. as soon as our mind becomes uncontrolled and peaceful, and our intention becomes to harm, then our “wrath” has degenerated and we’ve simply become angry!

                  you are quite right to exercise caution with this: genuine wrath is a completely peaceful, selfless mind that is only focused on the welfare of others. it is very easy to say that we are being wrathful when in fact our mind is not at peace and we are, in fact, becoming angry. so we need to take great care. at the ISC protests, for example, we are repeatedly reminded that if we cannot maintain a peaceful, positive intention whilst protesting, then we should go home!

                • Dane Calderon

                  I typed up a big ole response and my phone timed out and deleted it! I will pick this up after work, but I am deeply grateful to you for sharing your knowledge with me even if our schools have some disagreements. I think wrathful practice might differ in how we would use it, so I am excited for the conversation to come of this! I hope you had a wonderful holiday yesterday! Our Kenpos spoke about the wonderful Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh during our dedication of merit, and I thought about you and our conversations and mutual respect despite of our school, we are are all the same!

                • Dane Calderon

                  You cannot force the Dalai Lama to alter his religious beliefs to infect Tibetan Buddhism with your beliefs. Again, I’m sorry, but your demand is ludicrous. It would be like me forming a religion worshipping one of Noah’s sons as a god and demanding the Pope to make me an abbot in the Catholic church, and accusing him of being a ‘false pope’ for refusing to alter all of Catholicism for my demand. Also, you didn’t address the part about the Chinese government promoting Shugden…

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  Dane – are you understanding what i’m writing? it seems not so much… i have stated several times now: we are NOT asking the Dalai Lama to change his beliefs. we are asking him to tell everyone to stop persecuting those who do not share his beliefs. that is all.
                  and i did address the “part about the Chinese govt.” – go back and read it.

                • Dane Calderon

                  May I ask your thoughts on Nyingma? This is vital to my understanding of modern Shugden practice.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  i have the greatest respect for the Nyingma tradition. Guru Padmasambhava, as my own Guru – a Shugden practioner – has told me, was an enlightened master.
                  i thought you weren’t reading any more replies? ;)

                • Dane Calderon

                  You started making sense, and I did a mala of Padmasambhava’s mantra to center myself in the realization that I have been a bit of a Dick to you. :)

                  Are you aware that Shugden was once seen as wrathful against Nyingma, which was HH reason for condemning it? Gelugpas who also practiced Nyingma were persecuted in Shugden’s name. If that aspect is gone from the practice, then I am almost giddy for Shugden. More Buddhas, more love!

                  Being a Nyingma practitioner, you can see my concern lol

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  thanks, man. and please accept my apologies for my own curtness in some of my replies!
                  i am aware of the stories about perceived antagonism between Nyingma practitioners and Shugden – but hinestly, the Lamas i have spoken to about this have told me that it has been very much exaggerated. there are historical examples of Nyingma practitioners who have relied on Shugden (i’m sorry – the details escape me at the moment…)
                  some of the problem seems to have arisen from some Gelugpa troublemakers who – for political reasons – caused to be “leaked” a pamphlet by a Gelugpa Lama containing some outrageous stories of Shugden punishing and harming those Gelugpas who even touched Nyingma texts! that is plain nonsense: even Pabongkha Rinpoche, who is sometimes accused of forcibly converting Nyingma monasteries to follow the Gelug tradition, had many Nyingma friends and deeply respected Guru Padmasambhava.
                  there has been a LOT of revisionist history thrown around, for the purpose of stirring up trouble – usually for political reasons. as always, the great Masters, of all traditions, have continued to show each other the greatest respect. i follow them, not silly political factions.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  all we ask for – all we want – is for the Dalai Lama to say something like: “While i do not believe Dorje Shugden is a suitable object of refuge, there are many who do. we should all respect each other and live together in harmony, and no one should be persecuted or discriminated against for his or her beliefs.”
                  if he did that, i would sing his praises and ALL the protests etc. would stop!

                • Dane Calderon

                  I think this is well within his character, having listened to countless hours of his teachings in various refuges on YouTube. He always advocates such things. It is really out of character for him to leave this unsaid. If Nyingma and other schools are not threatened, then we should be able to practice together. Maybe there are some extremists who still persecute non-Shugden/Gelug practitioners, and he is worried about a Shia/Suny type of situation like something out of Iraq. Imagine sectarian fighting between Buddhists. That would really be an indication of the decline of humanity!

                • Dane Calderon

                  Also, if me debating religion with you on the internet is your definition of oppression of your religious freedom, I’ve got news for you. Welcome to the real world. You have no idea what oppression is.

                  I’m sorry, but the gloves had to come off. When I realized your demand is for the Dalai Lama to write a letter to Tibet supporting the Communist government, you lost me. This was never an honest debate. I will keep you in my thoughts during the celebrations tomorrow. Remember, your karmic deeds are multiplied 10 million fold tomorrow. Please don’t let your hatred for His Holiness put you in a bad spot.

                  I will not be reading any more replies.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  yeah, you will.
                  i never said anything about “a letter to Tibet supporting the Communist government” – where did you get that from?
                  and when i talk about oppression, i’m not talking about you, for goodness’ sake! :D i’m talking about monasteries divided, families torn apart, people beaten and killed, children barred from schools, people denied medical care. i’m talking about signs in shop windows and outside prayer halls and clinics denying entry to Shugden practitioners. i’m talking about Shugden Buddhists being denied their place in Buddhist forums and entrance to Buddhist teachngs, pujas and events, worldwide. i’m talking about being screamed at and spat at in the street. i’m talking about hatred and ostracism and discrimination. i have seen, or heard directly from those who have seen, all of these things.
                  i’m not talking about your debating skills.

                • Dane Calderon

                  Deleted… This post wasn’t constructive.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  anyone who wears the robes of a monk and bears the title of a religious teacher yet lies and encourages his followers to persecute others is false. his rebirth is also extremely questionable. read about Reting Lama and the deception surrounding his “recognition” of the boy Lhamo Dondrub.

                • Dane Calderon

                  The 5th Dalai Lama never worshipped or revered Shugden as anything but a spirit. You have been fed some pretty serious bullshit, dude. Shugden practice, as you know it, didn’t really pick up until the 1960s. Holy smokes this is eye openopening and disturbing.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  look it up.

                • Dane Calderon

                  I have. Shuggen was a world protector and he was prayed to like any other world protector. He was conside a samsaric spirit. Look it up.

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  Ngatrul Dragpa Gyaltsen, it is thought, was murdered by people close to the 5th Dalai Lama out of jealousy for his great popularity and good qualities, which, they felt, somewhat overshadowed the 5th’s. from the extant evidence it appears likely that the 5th had a good relationship with Dragpa Gyaltsen and was not a party to the assassination, but nevertheless he felt remorse. Ngatrul Dragpa Gyaltsen had vowed to return as a Dharmapala to protect Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition from the effect of the mixing of politics and religion. the 5th subsequently had many bad dreams and believed that Dragpa Gyaltsen had returned as a malevolent spirit to harm him. he performed, and commissioned, many rituals to destroy this “spirit”, all of which were unsuccessful. in that he was invoking powerful enlightened Protectors, yet they were unable to overcome this “worldly spirit”, the 5th DL eventually realized that Ngatrul Dragpa Gyaltsen had been an enlightened master and so Dorje Shugden was in fact an enlightened being. filled with remorse, he created the first statue of Dorje Shugden with his own hands, dedicated the Trode Khangsar prayer hall in Lhasa to him, and composed the first prayer to Dorje Shugden praising him as an enlightened Protector of the Gelug Tradition.
                  i don’t care if you accept or believe any of this. many people do, and that is their right and their freedom. no-one – not even a politician and spiritual “teacher” such as the 14th DL – has the right to persecute others based on this or any other belief.

                • Dane Calderon

                  No that’s fine. Nobody has been willing to actually talk about any of this, so Shugden has been reduced to hatred of H.H. I welcome the history lessons. I consider this a beck of a lot more productive than whatever the he’ll we were doing before :)

                • Atisha’s Cook

                  great – i agree! :)

  • justinwhitaker

    I forgot to mention the petition over at change.org requesting that NKT practitioners stop their protests of the Dalai Lama:

    “We request that you immediately cease the provocative protests and yelling at the public teachings of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.”

    http://www.change.org/petitions/new-kadampa-tradition-we-request-that-you-immediately-cease-the-provocative-protests-and-yelling-at-the-public-teachings-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama?recruiter=38324271&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition

    (with thanks to sumeru press for pointing it out : http://www.sumeru-books.com/2014/06/petition-provocative-new-kadampa-protests-public-teachings-hhdl/)

  • Karze

    One of the strange thing is that these very Dolgyal group never protested single time against Chinese total subjugation, oppression and destruction of Buddhism in Tibet by Chinese. Yet on the contrary they cooperate with Chinese officials and get their funding from a special organ of Chinese government called “United Work Front” whose main duty is to contain and control the minorities especially Tibetans from dissenting the oppression and occupation.

    The leader of Shugden very often are invited and are guest of Chinese embassies.

  • Karze

    All that Dalai Lama did was to secularise the Tibetan Buddhism and to wean the Geluk control and hegemony over other 4 schools after coming into exile.

  • Give Religious Freedom

    Hi Justin,

    Thanks so much for your article. It’s been such an uphill battle for Dorje Shugden practitioners to get our side of the story heard. Mostly we are just demonized as being “against the Dalai Lama,” which, given his popularity, is tantamount to saying we’re “against everything good in the world”! :-) All we’re against is religious discrimination. We are good, normal people — not fanatics, not violent or bad or brainwashed cult members.

    There are so many instances showing clear evidence of the 18-year discrimination against Dorje Shugden practitioners. The mere fact that Tibet House uses the word “Dolgyal” for their book, which is a religious slur, shows how brazen and self-righteous many are about mistreating Shugden practitioners.

    Thanks again for your balanced post!

    • Mick

      You are quite uninformed. The term Dolgyal is a term used by Shugden practitioners before they started to claim in around 1960s gradually he were an enlightened protector. Dolgyal means “king spirit from Dol” and this is a common name even used by the protectors’ adherents in the past. It is not a “a religious slur” and therefore it doesn’t show “how brazen and self-righteous many are about mistreating Shugden practitioners.” rather your lack of knowledge shows how much you have been wrongly informed by the NKT and how much you are unable and unwilling to get sober knowledge …

      • Give Religious Freedom

        Dear Mick,

        Regardless of the history of the term, the term is currently certainly not used as a compliment. It is used exclusively these days by opponents to Dorje Shugden prayers.

        Further, I really don’t care if you or others believe Dorje Shugden is a spirit or a Buddha — that is 100% your religious choice and freedom. I will not debate it with you or anyone else; we each have our point of view and that’s fine.

        The protests are not over the nature of Dorje Shugden but over the religious discrimination that’s taking place.

        The simple fact of the matter is that there is government-sanctioned discrimination going on, it was triggered by the Dalai Lama’s inflammatory speech, and we are protesting that discrimination. A few kind words from the Dalai Lama about Dorje Shugden practitioners would go a long way to solving this problem. Why hasn’t the champion of religious tolerance been able to provide any kind words for Shugden practitioners?

        You accuse me of being unable and unwilling to get sober; I could say the same thing to you. So many people are unable or unwilling to look at the blatant discrimination that’s taking place and call it wrong. If they call it wrong, indirectly they would have to call the Dalai Lama wrong, and it seems that the majority of people are afraid to do that.

        • Mick

          This is not a good argument. You continue to ignore history and facts. 



          Dolgyal, king spirit from Dol, is the name attributed to Shugden since a long time even by his proponents. If you claim it were a “religious slur” to call Shugden under the name he is known, Dolgyal, it follows that even his propagators slurred Shugden.

          

With respect to the claims of suppressing freedom of religion:


          
“This accusation makes no sense,” states Dr Hill. “The Dalai Lama is not head of any state; he has no military or police at his command; he has no political jurisdiction over which he can exercise suppression.”

“Some members of the Gelug sect left the authority of the Dalai Lama in order to follow what they see as a purer form of religion. These people may not be very popular in other parts of the Gelug sect, but their human rights have not been violated nor their freedoms suppressed; even if some people did want to suppress or silence the pro-Shugen side, they simply have no means of doing so,” Dr Hill concludes.


          

Dr Nathan W. Hill is Lecturer in Tibetan and Linguistics at London University SOAS’ (School of Oriental and African Studies.


          http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/distance-from-dalai-lama-protests-among-differing-opinions/

          You can practice Shugden, Shugden people can practice Shugden. There are Shugden monasteries all over India and Tibet. There are only restriction for certain circumstances or places because of the harming effect of this practice.

          Tibetologist Thierry Dodin states in the interview that I linked already however, “It is true that the cult is shunned by the community. But the claim that its remaining followers are systematically discriminated on the basis of an official directive cannot go unchallenged, if for no other reason than the fact that they themselves choose to live in groups largely cut off from the rest of the community. As always in socio-political conflicts, unfortunate incidents did in fact occur here and there. Still, it would be unfair to make the Dalai Lama responsible for the actions of a few overly-zealous individuals. He neither called upon anyone to carry out such actions nor approved of these actions in retrospect. Moreover, such incidents have been wildly exaggerated by Shugden propagandists in terms of their frequency and gravity. Yes, there have certainly been social tensions, but violence has been the exception. The tensions have instead been released in heated debates, demonstrations and boycotts. And if one takes into account that the problem has been in existence since the 17th century and already led to severe tensions in old Tibet, even local wars, one must say that overall this conflict has been quite peacefully managed in the last 30 years.”

          • Give Religious Freedom

            Ok, Mick. So two questions: 1) Are you saying that there is no discrimination? Because that’s just not anywhere close to true.

            2) Why won’t the Dalai Lama simply say the equivalent of, “Hey guys, I think Dorje Shugden is an Evil Spirit, but everyone has a right to worship as they please, so I’d like to encourage people and the government not to treat them any differently than anyone else”?

            • Mick

              There is no persecution or discrimination as the NKT/ICS wrongly claim. They claim wrongly that Shugden people were hindered by the CTA/DL to have access to education, to have access to passport documents, or even to medical health care. There were a few single cases where this happened due to over zealous Tibetans or due to over aggressive Shugden people. However, NKT/ICS claim wrongly that this would be the policy of the CTA or the Dalai Lama which is wrong.

              With respect to the second point. I don’t know if the Dalai didn’t say anything like this or not. The Dalai Lama didn’t encourage people to harm any Shugden practitioner. Tibetans have their own way of dealing with such things. You won’t find a statement by the Dalai Lama either where he says: “Hey guys, though you think Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, everyone has a right not to worship it, so I’d like to encourage the Shugden people not to treat Shugden critics differently than anyone else.” Remember, it were Shugden people who are accused by the Indian police and searched by Interpol for having killed the Shugden critic Gen Lobsang Gyatso and two of his students, it was a Western Shugden person who tried to kill Chatral Rinpoche and it were Shugden people who had the vile plan to murder the assistant of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche in order to blame for this murder the CTA/Dalai Lama. NKT/ICS is good in accusations but not good in history, facts and understanding of the whole picture. What NKT/ICS perfected is a narrow version of the situation that is totally biased, exaggerated, selfish (only considering the own side), and they perfected the art of victimising themselves and blaming others. In that way they isolate themselves even more and contribute largely that nobody likes them. Not any Shugden person has been killed, tortured put into prison, etc. Not any Human Right organisation has ever approved any of the allegations. The Delhi High Court dismissed the writ filed by the fake Kundeling lama due to ‘vague averments’ and the ‘absence of any specific instances of any such attacks’ on Dorjee
              Shugden practitioners etc.

              • Give Religious Freedom

                I know I won’t change your mind, Mick, but there is plenty of evidence to contradict your claims. I post these links below not so much for you, therefore, but for anyone else out there who’s still reading and has an open mind. Mick, I sincerely wish you all the best in your life and in your spiritual practice. I am done posting here.

                First-hand experience of discrimination by monk in India: http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-firsthand-experience-of-religious.html

                Tibetans talking about their personal experiences of discrimination: http://youtu.be/78o-1s9hDos (It’s long so you might want to skip ahead to 5:30)

                An old video but still relevant: http://youtu.be/n5sOm-uQH9Y

                A more recent news report: http://youtu.be/0eTFXgVKQi4

                An article by one of the Dalai Lama’s former translators, suggesting that the famous murder Dorje Shugden practitioners are accused of might be a frame-up job: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/point-12-violent-events-with-images/

                Please note that not one testimonial above is written by an NKT practitioner.

                • Mick

                  True, you cannot change my mind. Shugden people changed my mind in the past for over 6 years. I believed them, and found convincing what they had to say because I relied only on their information and hadn’t different information nor was I encouraged to seek such. When I left them because they didn’t live what they preached, it took me about 8 years of investigation, acquiring knowledge and analysis to find out that all what they said in those more than 6 years was either untrue, exaggerations, a mixture of half-truths with untruths and some truths or blatant lies.

                  Now briefly to your links: Helmut Gassner slanders without a shred of evidence Gen Lobsang Gyatso by claiming about this brutally murdered person he had been involved in dirty businesses. This is similar as to claim Kennedy was murdered because he was involved in dirty business. Gareth Sparham, who is a student of Gen Lobsang Gyatso, states in his biografie about Lobsang Gyatso, that Gen-la, was devoted to raise knowledge and critical thinking in his students, and he was devoted to help his Chinese students as he did it with his Tibetans, and Westerners. It lacks any sense of shame by Gassner to denounce Gen-la and to speak so badly and wrongly about a murdered person. Not only that he speaks badly about him without having evidence, he ignored the evidence of the Indian police who accuse Shugden followers for this crime and who also name the suspects which are searched by Interpol still.

                  The Swiss TV documentation that you link was so wrong, that the TV station had to excuse to the public in Switzerland and the chief justified himself “we are an infotainment magazine and not a scientific format”, they didn’t consult independent experts (from Universities) nor the Indian police but repeated (like France 24 TV) the allegations of the Shugden people without proper fact checking. As a result the Swiss TV station had to make a self-corection in which they corrected many of their former claims and for the first time asked an academic expert. When I remember correctly France 24 TV asked a Shugden person as an independent expert, this is not much convincing.

                  Indirectly you claim I would not have an open mind and it were thats why why you cannot convince me. But this is not true. I made up my own mind after I learned the arguments from both sides and as a former Shudgen follower and practitioner. Lies, exaggeration and propaganda won’t convince me. I don’t say that there are no problems, I don’t say that Shugdenpas are also bullied, but I see also the difficulties the Tibetans and other practitioners have with Shugdenpas. It is a dependent arising and therefore I don’t follow your and NKT/ICS’s arguments that the sole source of these problems were the Dalai Lama. This is totally wrong.

                • ppq

                  Thank you for bringing truth to the Shugenpas.

  • 456inthemix .

    Does this guy speak or understand Tibetan ??? Before he get involved into Tibetan Buddhism he should learn the language properly to understand what is he following :D and read about Shuden History. He might get shocked, when he knows the facts. Why do you think H.H. giave up ??? The western is advanced in technology but what do you know about the other dimenstions? Shugden is a dangerous guy. Btw H.H. never banned he just requested not to take any empowerments but one can still attend his teaching. Actually I feel little bit sorry for Justin: Den er weiss nicht, was er tut.

  • 456inthemix .

    The following excerpt describes the macabre rGyal po spirit Do rJe Shugs ldan, usually accompanied by ten armed youths (stag slrar bcu) as depicted on two posters displayed in New Kadampa centres worldwide.(translation by Rene de Nebesky-Wojkowitz, Ph. D.)

    “A great number of various objects and substances is offered to rDo rje shugs ldan at the time of his worship: heart-blood in which yellow-red bubbles rise one after the other, quivering flowers made out of the organs of the five senses, expanding clouds of smoke which rises from the burnt offering of white incense and the smouldering “great meat”; the fire of the lamp made of human fat and having a wick made of human hair. The strongly smelling liquid consisting of brain, blood, and bile, the heap of food composed of the organs of the five senses, hearts, meat, and bone; the pleasing “offering of the sound” of great trumpets, thighbone trumpets, and skull-drums. A great number of animals are sacrificed symbolically: the khyung, dragons, lions, elephants, mules and horses, wild yak, tame yak and hybrid yak, goats, sheep, Indian tigers, leopards, bear, hyenas, jackals,iong:tailed and grey-haired monkeys, wolves, wild boars, lynx, Manchurian tigers, stags, kyang, musk-deer, wild sheep, rhinos, dgo-antelopes, and other game; owls and screech-owls, crows, vultures, peacocks; parrots, cuckoos, mouse-hawks and falcons, raven, and domestic fowl. …The precious apron made of human bone, the human corpse which serves as a carpet, a freshly drawn elephant-skin and a tiger-skin which serves as a loin-cloth; a divination-arrow, a skull-cup, a flat basin full of jewels, and a tshe bum. The black hat of a magician, a garment with long sleeves, jewels, snakes serving as bangles, ornaments made of human bone, leather boots, a girdle, a parasol decorated with silken tassels, a .. banner of victory”. and the horse-trimmings. An armour consisting of a strong cuirass and a helmet made of thunderbolts whose brilliancy fills all quarters of the world, a sword, arrows, a battleaxe, and a knife. …The gtor ma consisting of a heap of piled up meat and bone of slaughtered inimical obstacle-creating demons, and the disturbed seas of biood, beer, and Chinese tea which are offered as a drink.

    The offerings presented to rDo rje shugs ldan are to please his sense of seeing, one should offer: the light of the lamp nourished by human fat and having a wick made from the hair of a corpse.”

    So, the question is: is this a demon or is it “Modern Buddhism”?

  • Khedrup

    The petition was not a response to the ISC’s petition. It was simply drawn up as a response to this very noisy and disrespectful campaign that is damaging the image of Buddhism and includes methods such as injecting NKT members into the audience at the teachings to scream and yell at HH Dalai Lama.
    My hope is that reporters and news sites will hold the NKT and Shugden spokespersons to a higher standard in regards to their information. For example, recently Rabten on the ISC “News” videos indicated a Shugden person had been stabbed in India. There was no evidence, no photo, no police report given to confirm this. One would think that in India, where various religions have co-existed, and indeed disputed, for hundreds of years, the story would have been picked up. While the NKT and ISC malign the DL “side” for speaking about the murder of Gen Lobsang Gyatso and his assistants, at least there is an INTERPOL notice, which, although of course not the final word in the matter, at least indicates that there are doubts.

    My request is that any reporter ask for clear documentation and evidence of such claims.

    With regards to the book posted by Tibet house, there is now an article on TP’s website using the information from the book to clarify various misrepresentations from the NKT and Shugden groups about the origin of Shugden, his true nature, the conduct of the Shugden protestors, and the exaggerations about such key matters as the number of practitioners. I hope readers will take a look at the evidence.

    http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/06/10/shining-light-on-the-misrepresentations-of-the-new-kadampa-tradition-and-shugden-protestors/

  • Mick

    Justin have you really checked if Thubten Wangchuk is the Dalai Lama’s representative for Europe? As far as I know Thubten Samdup is the Tibetan government in exile representative in Europe. Thubten Wangchuk is a Tibet activist and the Director of Tibet House in Barcelona.

  • Mick

    Hi Justin,
    thank you for your post. A mediation might be a good solution if both sides are willing and open to listen to each other. If that is not the case a separation (similar to a divorce) might be another solution.

    As you admit the issue is incredible complex. In my experience with “Shugdenpas” I never experienced them to be open to listen and to be flexible enough to see the issue from different angles, to accept history or facts. Never ever, they have even admitted or agreed upon that Nyingma and Kagyue fear that practice … I never witnessed any openness to understand Shugden critics.

    Contrary to this, the Dalai Lama used in the beginning a soft approach. He agreed in the beginning with two Professors with whom he discussed that issue, that a ban is no option at all. But he was pushed from different sides to be more explicit. The Nyingmas refused to participate in a Tibetan Governement In Exile as long as there are government officials that practice something that is against themselves, the Shugdenpas spread untruths and claimed the Dalai Lama only says he gave up the practice but would practice it secretly. So in a long term process the Dalai Lama had to become more and more explicit facing the issue and using strong means to reduce its influence and an the same time to give enough freedom for those who ignore his advice.

    IMO the organised Shugdenpas follow a fundamentalist approach.* So how do you mediate between fundamentalists and the needs of a society?

    * They possess the “truth” all others are wrong, liars etc. No capability to see things in a differentiated manner, to accept history, facts, opposing views and contradictions, washing it all away with rewritings of history and events. The base idea is the belief in a supremacy of the Gelug school and an inherent existent “purity” of it that is threatened by “mixing the pure Gelug school with different traditions”. Such black and white pattern are difficult to be mediated …

    • justinwhitaker

      Mick, I cannot get into this too much more at the moment, but sentences like “The Nyingmas refused to participate in a Tibetan Governement In Exile as long as there are government officials that practice something that is against themselves…” really have me scratching my head. Imagine if you replaced Nyingmas with “Catholics” or “Jews” and the “against them” was Protestantism or some other, simply different, belief.

      Everyone is going to have to work with people that might seem to be “against them” in the modern world.

      • Mick

        Maybe you don’t know the details?

        Prof. Martin Mills: “in defence of the deity’s efficacy as a protector, [the Yellow Book] named 23 government officials and high lamas that had been assassinated using the deity’s powers.” “Shugden was a protector deity – a choskyong – whose historical role served to bolster the symbolic distinction between the ruling Gelukpa order and the influence of other school of Buddhist institutional thought in Tibet. As a choskyong, however, the deity’s role was more than a question of personal belief: it existed as an element within the functioning structure of state law and practice. As such, the continuity of the deity’s institutional worship within the diaspora supported a State that was institutionally sectarian at a symbolic level. This consequence of continued Shugden practice was so strongly felt, for example, that during the early 1990s
        the Nyingmapa school threatened to remove their presence from the Tibetan Assembly of People’s Deputies – they sought to secede from a State structure whose very form and functioning was antagonistic to their presence.”

        Do the Catholics perform practices that are feared or threaten the Jews or Protestants? If yes, your example can be applied to the situation if no, then your example doesn’t fit to the situation.

        I think cases such as these should be carefully investigated and then one can place a sober judgement.

        • justinwhitaker

          I’m still not convinced that Shugden worship is threatening per se.

          Protestants and Catholics practiced shedding rivers of one another’s blood for centuries and certain partisans of each might hold views or perform practices that partisans of the other find threatening. But for the most part they’ve learned to live with each other. Things like Tony Blair being unable to “come out” as a Catholic while he was PM show that there is still some distance to go, but gone are the days (I hope) of Catholic shop owners denying service to Protestants or vise versa.

          I think we all need to agree that nobody is “assassinated using [this or any other] deity’s powers.” If Shugdenpas killed people, those individuals should be held responsible. Next, a simple halt of any/all deity worship inside the structures of the government (but not a ban on woshippers) could solve the antagonistic institutional symbolic sectarian issues.

          • Mick

            This is up to you, what convinces you.

            IMO, and also in Tibetan’s opionion, it is mainly the Tibetan’s business how they deal with their issues, and they have to find their own way to deal with this Shugden matter according to their capacity, their believes, understandings and value system.

            If you as a Westerner write to me »I think we all need to agree that nobody is “assassinated using [this or any other] deity’s powers.”« you are looking from a Western perspective and Western value based angle – a european centred view – and you decide not to put yourself in the shoes of others.

            From such a european centred view it is easy as well as misleading to impose Western/Christian based values on another people … it is misleading because such an approach misses to understand the Tibetan society’s own internal logic. If you do that you don’t get what the Tibetans are discussing about. And it would be similar unfair as to ask the Aborigines to skip their own world in order to embrace the Western based value system. And this is exactly what you are doing when you write: “Next, a simple halt of any/all deity worship inside the structures of the government …”: you give a rather ignorant “solution” to people that think and act completely differently to you. Mills describes in his 2009 paper how important the religious rituals and protectors are for Tibetans, how the protectors and ritual form the very core of the government of the Tibetans/Dalai Lamas: “Protector deities mark the volatile boundary between religious and state authority for Tibetans: they are used as guarantors to secure legal oaths, and their powers are evoked as part of the combined ritual-military defence of Buddhist states.”

            IMO, you interpret the issue from a mere religious point of view and Western/Christian based values while it is rather a political issue and embedded in a complex cosmology for Tibetans. You look onto it (and in that sense you follow the distortions of the Western protesters who mix Western values with ignorance about the situation and who ignore values and structures which are dear to Tibetans) from a narrow mere Western perspective that does not discriminate between cross cultural differences … In a footnote of his 2009 research Mills adds that “This is another subtle, but important distinction between the Ladakhi view and that commonly expressed by Western supporters of Shugden, who often questioned how the Dalai Lama, who was after all a mere worldly ruler, could intervene in peoples’ beliefs and practices pertaining to a deity. While this view has strong implications in terms of European understandings of human rights (see MILLS 2003a), it is arguably based on a Christian understanding of the distinction between divine and human realms which is simply not shared by most religious adherents within Tibetan Buddhism or, for that matter, Hinduism (see Fuller 1992: Ch. 1).”

            http://info-buddhism.com/Dorje_Shugden_Western_Himalaya_Martin_Mills_2009.html#f64

          • ppq

            The Shugden cult teaches that all other forms of Tibetn Buddhism (Rnyingma, Saskya, Bon, Bkahbrgyud) are false, and there has been violence in the past. Since the 19th century, there has been a movement, Rismed, that has sought to find common ground between all traditions. The Dalai Lama and the various sects that participate in the Tibetan Government in Exile all support a Rismed approach to intersectarian relations; the Shugsldanpas oppose it.

            These are facts that can easily be found with a Google search.

  • JMS

    I have followed this schism for several years. It has exasperated to a ridiculous level.

  • NaphiSoc

    I am disturbed by the OCD posts these people post on Twitter – it really sows seeds of discord in the unity of the Buddhist community.

    • Kelsang Pagpa

      And you really can’t see that it’s the false Dalai Lama who has sowed the discord by initiating a religious ban against a practice from his own Guru and tradition? Such a thing has never been heard of before!

      • Dane Calderon

        I agree with him. I agree. I have to remove Shugden followers from Twitter because there is so much negativity coming into my feed now. How about posting positive things to make people see Shugden is really Buddhism practice. It seems that all you do is complain about HH, you don’t project a good image of your religion. I worry that the wrathful stuff is being overdone, maybe by people who are not ready for Dzogchen and are attempting extremely dangerous deity yogas they don’t understand. They try to do wrathful yoga, but rather than transforming the hatred into love, the project the wrath defensively like a weapon.

        That is my impression on this whole “controversy”. Given how single mindedly the Shugden community has been attacking HH Twitter without ever once posting inspirational words or Buddha quotes or spreading seeds of dharma. 100% of posts from Shugdenpas have been just a constant barrage of insults at HH. It breaks my heart to see honest practitioners is such a deep state of suffering and confusion, but I think I understand now why HH cannot validate Shugden. You are free to practice your new religion, but it has no home in Tibetan Buddhism. That has been made clear, and I believe that is the correct course.

        I have put forth honest effort to understand and love this new branch of Buddhism, but it really does appear to be poisonous. I do not want this negativity infecting Buddhism. It is disturbing rhetoric from disturbed people. Buddhism is the CURE for these emotions. It should never be the CAUSE. And then they get offended if we point this out and accuse us of being blind. Loyalties to HH aside, this “wrathful means” is not Buddhism. That’s all Shugden. I understand the “ban” now. I am sorry to say it. I love you all and I offer my unconditional compassion to you as past parents and future buddhas. I wish you freedom and happiness throughout all of your lives and pray you achieve precious human rebirth again to find true dharma. I do not doubt your dedication to the lamas of your lineage or your dedicated joyful effort. I think you must be fantastic with great teachers. I mean you no insult by this, but I do not think Shugden will be able to help anybody achieve enlightenment in this lifetime. I think the use of wrathful deity yoga is misunderstood in Shugden. It seems that practitioners are embarking on very dangerous high level Dzochen practice before they are ready, and rather than using wrath as a catalyst to transfer hate into love, the cultivate the Wrath and keep it inside or project it outward. This is a sick thing to do. This is NOT Tibetan Buddhism. It is the opposite of Tibetan Buddhism.

        Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to be the way it is. I see monks in robes, apparently ordained by at least the novice vows, posting memes on Twitter about the Dalai Lama that are so beyond excuse. Not just because they are about HH, but it see a man with a shaved head wearing the robes representing Buddhism like that. It goes against so many levels and facets of Buddhism. It makes me wonder what the neck you guys are actually doing. I am just being as open and filterless as I can because I think this conversation needs to happen. The rest of the Buddhist world is wondering what the heck is going on with this sect. It doesn’t look like the result of anything I have precticed personally or read about in other branches.

        • NaphiSoc

          Wow Dane thanks – look me up and connect @NaphiSoc

        • Kelsang Pagpa

          What were doing is democratically exercising our right to free speech and protecting our tradition. We’re working for the religious freedom of Shugden practitioners. I’m sorry you see that as negative. I’m also sorry you see the tweets regarding the false Dalai Lama as negative – I’m afraid they are only the truth.

          Our protest may seem ugly and inappropriate to you but what is worse is that the most famous Buddhist in the world is publicy using words like compassion, love, tolerance and dialogue while behind the scenes doing the opposite. This kind of hypocisy is far more ugly and unbecoming of someone who wears Buddhist robes and who claims to be a realised being.

          • Dane Calderon

            He is a realized being. He is probably the world’s most accomplished Dzochen master, and he definitely knows more about Shugden than you. Listen to the lamas who care for you and the Gelug school. Your gurus are confused and go against their own lamas and lineage. The Shugden practice you do has only been done for around 100 years, and it has been condemned by top lamas since its inception. The Dalai Lama has a responsibility to protect the dharma, and that is what he is doing. That isn’t in question.

          • Dane Calderon

            The picture you use is not your face. Who is it?

            • Kelsang Pagpa

              It is my face and my real name. I’m not hiding anything.

              • Dane Calderon

                Did you take the novice vows?

                • Kelsang Pagpa

                  I took Kadampa ordination nineteen years ago. How is this relevant to the issue at hand?

          • Dane Calderon

            You do not have a SINGLE post that isn’t insulation HH. I am sorry but your cult is deluded. Please find true dharma. There is no obligation for Tibetan Buddhist leaders to accept your cult. Demanding that they validate what they consider Pure Evil violates all of our religious freedom, as you are insisting that we adopt evil practices and poison our religion to make your EGO happy. You are not a practicing Buddhist.

          • Kelsang Pagpa

            No Dane, it’s the false Dalai Lama who went against his Gurus. He’s completely disqualified as a spiritual teacher because he’s broken from the lineage – he’s not a Gelugpa. We’re following mainstream Gelugpa tradition, he’s the one who has diverged and created his own unauthorised, unblessed lineage. The false Dalai Lama is destroying the
            Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa and it’s our job to protect it.

    • Dane Calderon

      .

  • Dane Calderon

    Shugden is a religion promoted by the Communist government in China. All of the Shugden monasteries in Tibet were built by the People’s Republic of China. The Dalai Lama has said for decades that Shugden is evil. He has said that he cannot condone Shugden because doing so would condemn him to hell. He considers worship of Shugden so dangerous, that even as much good Karma as His Holiness has, he feels that condoning Shugden worship in Tibetan Buddhist monasteries would condemn him to a rebirth in the hell realm. This is something he has said he believes and feels very strongly about. He researched Shugden in the 70s and came to this conclusion. I think it is extremely audacious of the Shugden worshiping community to DEMAND that a man go against his own religion and condemn himself just to make you feel better. There is no oppression other than the Chinese Government’s oppression, which YOU SUPPORT with your support of the communist’s chosen religion of Shugden and your public slander of the only man who can keep Tibet Tibetan. None of you are even Tibetan. You are British. Seriously, Shugden worship belongs to the People’s Republic of China and the British NKT cult in the UK, which has magically accumulated immense wealth and owns several mansions around the UK (could PRC be funding the anti Dalai Lama propaganda??).

  • Dane Calderon

    Please watch this in its entirety.

    http://youtu.be/zp0N72-uv58


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