What Do Quakers Believe? What Are Their Beliefs on Jesus?

What do Quakers believe about God and the Bible?  Do they believe differently about Jesus than mainstream Christianity does?

The Quakers call themselves Quakers but also “Friends”

How the Quakers Got their Name

The Quakers were founded in the 1600’s by George Fox and according to his biography, he was brought before England’s magistrates Nathaniel Barton and Gervase Bennet on charges of religious heresy.  One of those magistrates, Gervase Bennet, is responsible for the name Quakers. The Quakers call themselves Quakers but also “Friends” because Fox “ bad them [to] trembled at the Word of God” and the name stuck. [1]   Fox may have been referring to Isaiah 66:2b which says “this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.”  The name Quaker, at first a name of ridicule, was later to be embraced by the Quakers and today 89% of them still refer to themselves as Quakers.  The Quakers are Protestants who believe in the same Jesus but their orthodoxy is different from most Christian churches as we will read about later in this article.

The Quakers were born of dissent and dissatisfaction about the Church of England which had become too ritualistic and hypocritical.  Even though their popularity caused their numbers to swell to 60,000 by the late seventeenth-century, they immigrated to America in search of greater religious freedom and better economic opportunities.  They eventually migrated to the Northeastern region of America and today primarily reside in New England.   Besides being called Quakers, they refer to themselves as “Friends” or “Friends of the Truth.”

What Quakers Believe

Quakers rely on revelation from the Holy Spirit but clearly they uphold all of the Bible as perfect and without error and so in this way they reflect most of the Protestant, evangelical churches. Any personal revelation from God must be placed against the Word of God and if a person’s revelation from God differs from what the Bible says, they fully reject it.  Most Quakers do believe in heaven and hell but feel it is more up to their personal interpretation of it and even the afterlife is left to speculation and up to each individual to interpret.  They see the Kingdom of God as being already presently on earth and not just some future hope.  Baptism in not as much an outward submersion in water but an inward conversion of the soul.

Quakers differ in that they see mankind as basically good and that even those who are not saved are the children of God.  This conflicts with what the Bible teaches that “All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one” (Rom 3:1) and that “There is no one righteous, not even one” (Rom 3:10). When Jesus told the disciples how to pray in what is commonly called “The Lord’s Prayer” He opened it with “Our Father Who art in Heaven” (Matt 6:9).  Jesus does not see those who are lost as being children of God but as being the children of the Devil.  Jesus said to those who did not believe in Him that “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.  Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.  You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:42-44) so Jesus disagrees with Quaker doctrine that those who are not saved are still God’s children.  Quakers do not believe in the Sacraments like baptism or the Lord’s Supper (or Communion) but believe that belief in Jesus is itself a Sacrament.  The Quakers do not have a creed or a set of doctrinal beliefs but instead believe in meditating and having communion with God as their doctrine.   Their traditional testimonies are that of “pacifism, social equality, integrity, and simplicity.” [2]

Conclusion

Quakers are not that different from Christians in that they believe in the Bible, they believe in Jesus Christ and that He lived a sinless life and became for us the sacrifice that was necessary to restore fallen mankind to a right relationship with God and that a person can be saved based upon their belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  Whether you are a Quaker, Catholic, or Protestant, you have the hope of an eternal home with the Lord and you are one of the children of God.  For those who have not repented, confessed their sin, pleaded to God for the forgiveness of their sins, and then trusted in Christ, God the Father is not their Father but their Judge and they are of their father the Devil.  Without repentance, confession, and trust in Christ, their future is hopeless because they don’t have the peace of God (Rom 5:1) and the Father doesn’t see them as having Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor 5:21) so their future is a bleak as possible (Rev 20:11-15) but for those who tremble at His Word and are of a contrite, broken spirit, He will be near to them (Psalm 51:17; Isaiah 66:2).  God leaves that decision up to you and you will live with that choice for all eternity with no opportunity to change it.

Another Reading on Patheos to Check Out: What Did Jesus Really Look Like: A Look at the Bible Facts

 

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Senior Writer at www.WhatChristiansWantToKnow.com whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Blind Chance or Intelligent Design

Resources

1.  “Quakers.” Wikipedia.  (Last updated January 11th, 2014). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Society_of_Friends  (accessed January 11, 2014).

2. “A Gateway to Quakerism.”  Quaker Info.  http://quakerinfo.org/index (accessed January 11, 2014).

photo credit: paladinsf via photopin cc

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Rob Felton

    There are Quakers who are conservative Evangelicals and there are Quakers who would not even call themselves Christians. This article does not accurately reflect the diversity of beliefs within the Friends (Quaker) community. Here is one group that holds a more conservative set of views: http://www.evangelicalfriends.org/beliefs

    • Jack Wellman

      Thank you for this better look at what I missed Mr. Felton. I appreciate this sir.

    • Indeed. I read this article thinking, “Huh? I don’t believe any of this stuff.”

      For the other side of the coin from what Rob posted, here’s a link that helps explains the ideas of Quakers who don’t believe in God at all
      http://nontheistfriends.org/

  • Ward Lee

    It is certainly not true to say that all Quakers “uphold all of the Bible as perfect and without error”. The Quakers I know (in the UK and in Australia) follow the leadings of the Spirit not the Book. As a Quaker, I respect the Bible for passing on the teachings of Jesus and for its beauty and poetry. But there is also experience and reason and the quiet inner Light that shows me the Way.

    • IAN RAMSAY

      This is an excellent synopsis of the life and faith of a Friend. Thank thee, Peace,

  • The author should have researched this more carefully. I don’t know where he got things like most Quakers are in New England. That’s not even considered a particular stronghold of Quakers.

    As others have noted, Quakers today range over a wide theological spectrum. As a decentralized group with no central human authority and one with several schisms which occurred in North America (and are now reflected in much of the Two-Thirds World where most contemporary Quakers live), it is very dangerous to generalize about Quakers.

    Quaker traditional understandings do have a lot to teach the larger church. For example, the understanding of scripture avoids the modern misconceptions such as fundamentalism on the one side and liberal disregard for scripture on the other side.

    • R Vogel

      Right? Pennsylvania, especially in the SE has always been a focal point for Quakerism, the state having been founded by a Friend. But about 5 sec of research led me to this http://www.quakerinfo.com/quak_us.shtml which showed that, in 1999 at least, Indiana has the largest absolute number of Quakers and Alaska, interestingly, has the largest percentage.
      He also completely glosses over the early persecution of Quakers in the new world, particularly in Puritan New England. Banishment, branding, whipping, and execution drove Quakers south to New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Of course this is ironic in that it exposes some of the myth of the early settlers of the US coming for religious liberty, unless it was the liberty to persecute someone else.

    • Jack Wellman

      Well said Mr. Samuel. I do apologize to you sir and to the readers and to Patheos as this was intended to be only a snapshot and it appeared blurry because of my lack of effort to which I have deep regret and in the future will endeavor to do a more comprehensive job. Personally, a lesson learned is worth a thousand textbooks and I took this one to heart, for what that is worth. Thank you for putting up with me.

      • Religions Student

        You really just copy and paste the same insincere apology to every person who calls you out on your misrepresentation of a faith you do not even follow? You, sir are the reason I left my family church. If you have any weight within the academic community or are affiliated with any institution I truly hope they question your credentials seeing that you cited a wikipedia article! Coming from a Religions and Quaker Studies student, please stick to preaching about your OWN beliefs because then it just looks bad on you.

  • Steven Waling

    What on earth does this have to do with Quakerism? ‘Quaker doctrine?’ One of the reasons I became Quaker was to get away from such notions. I don’t know who you’ve been talking to but it doesn’t seem like you’ve been talking to Quakers. Unless the only place you’ve been is Ohio. And we’re certainly not bible-worshippers who believe it’s without error.

    • Jack Wellman

      I do apologize to the readers as well as to you sir and Steven I also do to Patheos as this was intended to be only a snapshot and it appeared blurry because of my lack of effort to which I have deep regret and in the future will endeavor to do a more comprehensive job. Personally, a lesson learned is worth a thousand textbooks and I took this one to heart, for what that is worth. Thank you for putting up with me.

      • Mary

        Why is this still up a year later? As a birthright Quaker, my family have been Friends since the 1600’s, of the unprogrammed tradition I am horrified by this article. The claims bear very little resemblance to the faith I know and love. I thank Ian Ramsey and my other brothers and sisters for their attempts to educate on our diverse community. Unfortunately, only those who read the comments will find these corrections. Mr. Wellman, please stop reposting your disclaimer and remove this incorrect and damaging post. Thank you and Peace.

      • RichardSunday

        don’t apologise Jack, Steven doesn’t hold a strong relationship with God as he has stated … “the Bible isn’t God, nor was it written by God” and ” Course I don’t really believe that God wrote the Bible” seems he likes to pick and choose a doctrine that suits him

        • Jack Wellman

          Thank you sir. Good point. Maybe Steven would be better off finding a “many path to God” religion or enjoy a buffet of religious likings to fit his palate; a little of this but nothing of Christ.

          • Steven Waling

            Why d’you think I’m a Quaker? By the way, the evangelical view of the bible is not at all the tradition of the church from the 1st century on. Literalist biblethumping was created by a small minority of fundamentalists.

    • Simonlo

      Thank you for your comment, Steven. I am currently considering going to a Quaker meeting because their beliefs align with my own sensibilities on the divine. I had researched Quakerism and my overall takeaway was not at all reflected in the content of this article. After reading this article, I was shocked and thought not to go to any meetings. Until I read the comments from other Quakers. Thank you all for the clarification. Literal bible thumping is not what I was looking for in a spiritual community.

      • Steven Waling

        Thanks for your comment. You may be interested in finding out more about us at http://www.quaker.org which is an American site, or the British site is http://www.quaker.org.uk (I’m British, by the way.) I hope you find Quakers helpful on your spiritual journey. There are ‘conservative’ Quakers in America, mind, so look for an unprogrammed meeting if that’s more your spiritual cup of tea.
        This post reminds me of the time I was involved with an evangelical church in my youth. We had lots of pamphlets that told us what various religions ‘believed’, followed by Bible verses that somehow were supposed to prove how ‘wrong’ they were. When I did my own study, I found them to be largely inaccurate, unnuanced, biased and frankly rubbish. Often, in fact, very insulting to those other religions, and full of the usual evangelical arrogance (‘our way or Hell’).
        I wish you blessings on your spiritual journey, and hope you find the path for you.

        • Simonlo

          Thank you for your kind encouragement as well as the helpful links.

      • Rose Fenton

        Those who do not have the doctrine of Christ, are none of His.

  • Steven Waling

    This is ‘back-of-the-cereal-packet’ theology. It’s not even well-researched enough to be a good Chick tract (which if nothing else are good for a laugh.) Take a bunch of cracker barrel definitions, pair ’em up with the ‘correct’ bible verses (suitably ripped out of context and made to serve the preacher’s agenda) and lo and behold, your congregants can go away feeling smug about their ‘knowledge’ of Quakerism.
    Then they might actually meet some Quakers and find out that not only are there different types of Quakerism, from very Christocentric to very nearly atheist, but that the whole point of Quakerism is to have a faith that is free of cracker-barrel definitions.
    But God forbid that an evangelical should ever think for him/herself. They might wake up and realise that there’s life outside the cave they’ve been living in.

    • RocksCryOut

      Steven, you are quite correct in asserting that precise Quaker beliefs are varied. However, worldwide, the vast majority of Friends confess an orthodox Christian faith… which I know for certain includes kindness and love for our fellow human beings… which leads me to believe you are either not a Quaker or you are having a daunting challenge being one.

      Have a nicer day. Friend.

      • Steven Waling

        You should read what George Fox and early Quakers had to say about “hireling Shepherds” and “steeplehouses” mate. They were a lot less generous than I was being.

        • RocksCryOut

          You and Mr. Fox should read (and apply) what Jesus said about taking the plank out of your own eye. And come to think of it, what he said about loving your enemies and being a peacemaker. Your behavior is very odd coming from one who claims to be of a group known as a “Society of Friends.” Doesn’t seem to have rubbed off.

          • Steven Waling

            Which Jesus we talking about? The meek and mild wouldn’t say boo to a goose guy or the one who called the religious establishment of his day whited sepulchres annd turned the moneychangers’ tables over in the temple? I can see the motive of this blog clearly enough: there’s that ridiculous threat of hell at the end ofit, as if he’s trying to bring us into line with the gospel of fear.

    • IAN RAMSAY

      Thanks.

  • Jen Egan Cranston

    I have appreciated patheos as a conversation where all faiths have there OWN voice. Such a thin article about Quakers by a non-Quaker is really disappointing . I can get “why other faiths are wrong and are going to hell” tracts anywhere. I come to patheos to try to sincerely understand other faith walks. I may not be coming to patheos much more, if this is a trend.

    • Jack Wellman

      I do apologize to the readers and to you Jen and to Patheos as this was intended to be only a snapshot and it appeared blurry because of my lack of effort to which I have deep regret and in the future will endeavor to do a more comprehensive job. Personally, a lesson learned is worth a thousand textbooks and I took this one to heart, for what that is worth. Thank you for putting up with me.

  • Russ Dewey

    This bears no resemblance whatsoever to what I learned as a child at the Friend’s Meeting. Very misleading and full of fundamentalist sounding nonsense.

  • Steve Johnson

    Terrible article. You know nothing of Quaker. You mention “Whether you are a Quaker, Catholic, or Protestant, you have the hope of an eternal home with the Lord and you are one of the children of God” then in the same breath you say one must repent and confess which is NOT Quaker. So then how is there “hope of an eternal home” for us in your mind? Please do not write articles on something you know nothing about. You and your crowd have persecuted and led a smear campaign against us for centuries. Please stop and please remove this article. You are what gives Christans a bad name. Jack Wellman paraphrase: everyone has hope of eternity as long as you follow Jack Wellman’s beliefs.

  • Johan Eustache

    ” clearly they uphold all of the Bible as perfect and without error “. What on Earth are you talking about? “Clearly” you know nothing of Quakers. Because the scriptures are only a declaration of the source, and not the source
    itself, they are not to be considered the principal foundation of all truth and
    knowledge. The Bible is not perfect and does contain error and contradiction. Have you actually read it? If you had maybe your beliefs would lie closer to Quaker. There’s a good reference on this same website. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/08/19/an-incredible-interactive-chart-of-biblical-contradictions/

  • Tessa Dragon VanLear

    This is so far from the truth at times. The Bible is not viewed as the Word of God by all Quakers and not the ultimate authority.

  • IAN RAMSAY

    You define the belief system of the Religious Society of Friends as if you knew what you were talking about. As a convinced Quaker, I can tell you and the others here that you most assuredly do not. Reading two short pieces about us does not make you an expert.

    [1] The largest number of Quakers live in Pennsylvania. The Philadelphia Yearly Meeting is the largest in the Us. This is because Pennsylvania started out as a Quaker colony founded by the Quaker.

    [2] There are two types of Quakers: programmed and unprogrammed. The programmed Friends worship much as low church Protestants many are evangelicals who pattern their lives according to the bible. Unprogrammed Friends worship in silence until someone is moved by the Spirit to speak. This is the more traditional Quakerism.

    [3] Few Friends believe that the bible is inerrant. Almost all accept scientific data over stories in the bible. We study the bible usually from the viewpoint of literary criticism. Some Quakers are Christians, but few unprogrammed Friends would call themselves Protestants. If anything, unprogrammed Friends tend towards universalism. Friends study Jesus, appreciate the greatness of Jesus and many believe that Jesus is God.

    [4] Since we have no dogma or formal system of theology, it is impossible to say what all Friends believe. Friends, however, generally believe in continuing revelation. The inspiration we receive from the Spirit or the Light is prophesy equal to the prophesy found in the bible. All prophesy whether ancient or modern is open to interpretation and discussion. Some Friends see little use in studying the bible, first, because it is sometimes wrong, and, second, because we believe we receive sufficient revelation in meeting for worship. Jesus is for many our avatar, paraclete and example: but not all.

    [5] Friends do not generally worry about being saved. In the crucifixion and resurrection, all were saved. Jesus died for all people not just those who live in places where Christianity is practiced. To some unprogrammed Friends, the death of Jesus was a historical fact of treachery not a preordained, pre-engineered event. Again, we have no dogma.

    [6] You say that we do not believe in sacraments. It would be more accurate to say we have no sacraments as rituals. We do not have water baptism because Jesus did not baptize with water. He baptized with the Holy Spirit. If we are baptized, we are baptized by the Spirit. We do not celebrate the eucharist. We break bread in meeting for worship with attention to eating together at picnics and pot licks. We marry ourselves in the presence of the Spirit or the Light. Everything we do as a group we do as meeting for worship with attention to the event at hand. We hold people in the Light and we worship in the Light.

    [7] Our faith and belief are based on our personal experience and the experiences of other Friends.

    [8] There are not a whole lot of unprogrammed Friends who would agree that Friends believe Jesus “became for us the sacrifice that was necessary to restore fallen mankind to a right relationship with God and that a person can be saved based upon their belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.” I have never heard a Friend sayanything close to ” For those who have not repented, confessed their sin, pleaded to God for the forgiveness of their sins, and then trusted in Christ, God the Father is not their Father but their Judge and they are of their father the Devil. Without repentance, confession, and trust in Christ, their future is hopeless because they don’t have the peace of God (Rom 5:1) and the Father doesn’t see them as having Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor 5:21) so their future is a bleak as possible (Rev 20:11-15) but for those who tremble at His Word and are of a contrite, broken spirit, He will be near to them (Psalm 51:17; Isaiah 66:2). God leaves that decision up to you and you will live with that choice for all eternity with no opportunity to change it.” Such is nonsense for most Friends.

    [9] Friends rarely if ever reference single verses the way you do. When the bible is quoted, every Friend I know will speak in generalities and invite Friends to read a chapter or two at least to understand the context of the principle being discussed. Quakers are not fundamentalists. We do not pick and choose verses to establish truth. We were originally the Religious Society of the Friends of Truth. Truth is found in discernment through threshing sessions of the whole meeting, from clearness committees, meetings for worship with attention to business in which there is no voting only full agreement of every member of the meeting. We discern truth; we do not always find truth in an inspired but imperfect set of documents.

    [10] You mentioned nothing of our testimonies which we gleaned from the teachings of Jesus and have found truthful in our share experience: integrity, simplicity, equality, community, stewardship and peace. You mentioned a lot about the bible which is not all that important, but ignored our call to act. James developed his epistle around the theme of service. Jesus’ final parable of judging the sheep and goats is directly on point for us.

    [11] You failed to mention that we are pacifists: one of our best known characteristics. We believe that there is that of God in every person; therefore, we will kill no one. We do not resort to violence. We generally completely agree with the power of non-violence for change as advocated by Jesus, Gandhi and King. We do not believe in any sort of redemptive violence. Jesus believed in shalom, so do we.

    [12] The old Friends had no time for the book, bells, steeple houses, decorated worship spaces or hireling preachers.

    This article is not truth. Please remove it.

    I am weary of discussing this. I am going to bed with my husband. Oh, did I mention Quakers have no difficulty with homosexuality? In fact, we have an important committee in our national organization for the comfort and support of our many LGBTQ Friends. Peace.

    • Frank Lockwood

      Very informative piece. Thanks for sharing it.

      • IAN RAMSAY

        Glad you liked it. Unfortunately, he has not taken this page down. Apparently, conservative Christians are no more interested in truth than conservative political parties like the Republicans and the Tea Party. Their lack of integrity is apalling. Still, we Quakers hold them in the Light in the hope that they will yield to the pleas of the Holy Spirit that they trust and appreciate the Truth. Peace.

        • David the One

          Should you not be including most Americans in the above post? I see very little evidence of a true Christian element at any level of American life. So sad, and still no apology for the 60-100 million of the indigenous peoples that were ethnically cleansed to establlish the Land of the Free.

    • Lynn Van Daele

      Wow,,,,,I was considering looking into becoming a quaker, I was researching their beliefs. I’ve been a Christian most of my life, and I’m searching for like minded people. But after reading your post about supporting homosexuals,, the quakers are not for me, If we truly love each other, we will not support any destructive sin in another .

      • IAN RAMSAY

        If you believe that homosexuality is a destructive behavior and not a gift of God to some of his children you [1] deny a vast amount of scientific research to maintain your prejudice and [2] would be very unhappy among Quakers. In my homosexuality, I have found an abiding love and a greater faith in the goodness of God’s gifts. Peace.

        • Guest

          God hates you.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            If the Bible is in any way accurate, that seems unlikely. It is the height of hubris for you to imagine that you know the mind of God. I have little more to say to an unrepentant bigot. If Jesus is quoted correctly in the gospels then God is love. All love comes from God. Hate is antithetical to God and never proceeds from God. Peace.

          • Guest

            Sirach 12:7
            The Most High himself hates sinners, and upon the wicked he takes vengeance.

            You filthy pervert.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            We are all sinners; so you believe God hates us all. You have a strange understanding of God. Jesus did say that good fruit cannot come from a bad tree. Remember that when you consider the Sistine Chapel, da Vinci’s Last Supper, Schubert’s Ave Maria, et al. Christian music would all but disappear without gay organists and composerd. Peace.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            It is impossible to discuss Christianity with someone who has no understanding of Christianity. Sirach is not in the canon of the Christian bible. It is part of a collection of books voted down by the Council of Nicea. Peace.

          • David the One

            I really must say, without making any judgement, that the pictures of these blokes kissing, hugging, etc.turns my stomach. I am heterosexual, alone since my partner died of MS, lonely, and waiting to be an angel when the time is come. I am prepared to be judged on my reaction to the pictures above, and keeping myself out of the company of those like them. I am sorry, but Genesis is so very clear on what partnership is about, and does never mention that “cleave” can be achieved between two males.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            It doesn’t mention dinosaurs, DNA, or a heliocentric solar system, but that doesn’t mean that such do not exist.

          • Tessi

            Whatever the sin is, it must be turned away from. Temptations come in many forms and differ from person to person. Sin starts in the mind first. – if the thought is dealt with and not entertained, it will hardly become an action. Clearly when we read about Sodom and Gomorrah in the bible, God is not in favor of the gay lifestyle. On the flip side, He is also not in favor of a man living in a cohabit relationship with a woman. 1 Corinthians 7:2 says this: Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

          • Soloved

            That’s right, no where does it say, “let every man have his own husband”. Its clear that there is “wife”, who is a woman, and “husband”, who is a man!

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Sweetheart, you should look up the meaning of the 17th century cleave. It refers to the splitting up of the relationship between two people joined in a covenant presided over by God as the third and arbitrating party.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            If men loving each other turns your stomach, then you are making a serious judgement. Poor Jesus.

          • David the One

            Sirach is a deutro-canonical book, taken to be included with others, such as the Wisdom of Solomon, to be a source of teachings that will enhance understanding of the development of the Church. Sirach contains many wonderful teachings on the dangers and evils of money-obsessed and greedy people. The Wisdom of Solomon predicts the taking, trial and execution of the CHRIST, and written at least 80 years before JESUS was born. However, hetero or homo, it will be GOD who judges, and until that point Satan who will cloud our eyes and try to lead us away from the WAY. We all will face the Judgement, regardless of what the JW’s say.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            True enough.

          • 70happyatheist

            Canon came about when Roman Emperor Constantine ordered some 300 Bishops to get together at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE for over a month and determine what their stated beliefs were going to be. No God was there! They had to decide what writings were to be excluded and which to be accepted. Second Council in 787 CE and more later. Just like Bible claimed that God appointed the kings but the writings have them fighting and killing each other to determine who the king will be!

          • IAN RAMSAY

            True enough. I suspect that I am much closer to your position than David the One–an idolater who worships a god of paper and ink rather than the spiritual existence the book is about. Still, your logic is somewhat
            faulty in that the screwy way the canon was agreed to does not negate the possibility that there is a spiritual presence in the universal order. Peace.

          • RichardSunday

            its true, we are all sinners saved by grace but there are conditions, many times God speaks to us through his word saying IF – you cannot continue in what God says is sin and KEEP salvation, the sin must be stopped …

          • Soloved

            Lets be clear; we are all sinners “saved by grace, through faith…” Ephesians 2:8. But good word Richard, As John said 1 John 3:7-10, ” Little children, let no one deceive you. The one who does righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. Whoever
            practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in him. And he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Whoever does not live in righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother”
            So, if your “faith” does not show what these scripture mentioned above, you may still be a sinner and not a saint! Repent and believe, have “faith”.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            In most Christian theology, it is the Holy Spirit that informs one of the inner truth of biblical passages not faith. Faith has other functions. You also write as if people can be divided into two distinct camps. I submit that we are all both saint and sinner and should not/cannot separate into two tidy groups. I submit, for example, that you might examine the meaning of “hubris” to see if that might be a problem for you. Many literalists and fundamentalists like yourself believe that they possess the inerrant wisdom of God and can speak for Him in absolute confidence because they can infallibly interpret the translation of a translation of writings over 2000 years old written in languages that brilliant scholars have difficulty translating. Many such people also profess that the Holy Spirit is now limited to the present canon. There is no evidence that new revelations should have stopped at Nicaea in the 330s CE. Do some work with “continuing revelation” and the possibility that the Christian and Hebrew Testaments should be added to as the Holy Spirit continues to inspire new believers to understand ever more profound truths than presented to ancient people of faith.

          • Says the anonymous person lacking enough conviction to cast their hate unveiled

          • 70happyatheist

            We find out that religious believers hate the same people their fake god hates. While slavery, sexism. and general ignorance is just fine!

          • 70happyatheist

            Isaiah 45:7 God creates Good and Evil. Also lived in the dark. Created light before creates sun and moon on four day! Shows how little real knowledge those that wrote the OT and plenty more! Book of ignorance is more accurate! Judges 1: 19 funny! 1 Corinthians 11: 14 Men not to have long hair yet every representation of Jesus he has long hair All those 613 commandments are ridiculous and ignored even though Jesus says not to change one iota of the law. Christian make up own rules! Virgin birth? So you daughter claims God got me pregnant not some young male!Sure!Exodus 24:9 Moses, Aaron, two more plus 72 Jewish elders “saw the God of Israel” and others met God! Yet no one has seen God! Claims all other the place which should not surprise any person who has critical thinking skills! Believers do not! Pitiful, awful , writings! Hell? How can any moral person believe in torture for eternity? Women are property of oldest male! Female children are worth half of a male! Men rule over women! No wonder human history is so awful! To think that educated people can believe not only this book but other “Holy Books” are believed through societal indoctrination where people are expected to believe or be treated as outside of good people in the community. No real thinking allowed! Only believers accepted!

          • Tessi

            God LOVES the sinner, HATES the sin. Big diff 🙂

          • How lovely it must be to know the mind of God!

          • Tessi

            If we search the bible like hidden treasure, we will get to know God better 🙂 http://www.gotquestions.org/know-God.html

          • IAN RAMSAY

            That is an offensive cliche to gays because it suggests that our gaiety is sin, which it is not. Gays sin like all other mortals but one of our sins is not our hormonal/genetic makeup. Over 400 species of animals exhibit homosexual behaviour. Contrary to the Republican noise machine, gaiety is not a choice. Thee fails to understand the difference between ethics and morals. The bible has both. Morals are those behaviours which are considered right or wrong for a specific time and place like the bible’s dietary and animal sacrifice laws, acceptance of polygamy, acceptance of slavery, the diminished role of women, and divine right of kings. Ethics are considered those behaviours that are considered right or wrong for all times and places like murder, rape, marriage, and non-judgmentalism. Jesus never speaks against homosexuality specifically (unlike Paul who also allowed for slavery and diminished status of women). To any reasonable person such an omission by Jesus strongly indicates that Jesus had no interest or concern about homosexuality as an impediment to entering heaven. If such were not a problem for Jesus, it should not be a problem for anyone else. Peace.

          • Tessi
          • IAN RAMSAY

            What is the point of this link to this discussion? The only thing it proves is that the person who put together this list is a Pharisee who treats the bible as an idol and worships it instead of the deity it discusses. Peace.

          • Tessi

            There is only peace through the prince of peace 🙂 Get to know Him for He changes not. ~ Malachi 3:6

          • Rose Fenton

            Thank you for placing that scripture.

          • 70happyatheist

            Bible God murdered through OT. Flooded everything and killed people and animals. Name is Jealous, rape was ok to female not promised to a man. Rapist could offer money to father(his property) and if father accepted the rapist could marry the female. She had no say! Bible God got angry and killed many. Even though writers most likely claimed large number for effect. Israel’s God was just their little tiny country’s God not all the other people of the world which they had little real knowledge about about anyway. Jesus was so ignorant like others of his day that he believed people were sick because they were possessed by demons! Of course he could walk on water. Silly! Turn water into wine! Silly Raise people from the dead! Silly. Slavery was fine it OT and NT! Some “Holy Book”!

          • IAN RAMSAY

            You are wandering through the Hebrew Testament which most Jews accept that the stories are more for our spiritual guidance than scientific or historical axioms. For the Christians, the most damaging problem is in the gospels centering around the crucifixion and resurrection–their central point of belief. What was the response of the thieves? the last words (did he die twice)? how many angels were at the tomb? none, one two? If the fundamentalists cannot agree on the details of this most central point of their faith, what else is left to discuss? Main line Christians now look to their scriptures much as the earlier Jews dealt with theirs. What you need to do is to dismiss the existence of a spiritual entity. Can there be an existence beyond energy and matter? Resolve that one and you’ll win the Nobel Prize for peace.

          • Tessi

            God hates no one. Rather, He hates lifestyle choices we make that are against His will. Ezekiel 18:32

          • Rose Fenton

            The Bible says that God is angry with the wicked every day.

          • Soloved

            This is what that means. John 3:16 shows His “love” {God hates no one) but verse 34 speaks to His “anger”. “He who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
            God has made a way to escape His anger “wrath”, but to refuse it, is an all different deal.

          • Rose Fenton

            With respect, Soloved, it seems you do not know there are several different meanings of the word “world”. In John 3 v. 16, it means the “cosmos” – the wonderful world which God has created, not every individual in the world, and there are different meanings in the Word of God for the world. Secondly, God loves His own people His chosen elect, brought out of the heathen world, and it is these God loves. He does not love the reprobate. In John 17 v. 9 the Lord prays for His people. He does not pray for the world, but for those the Father has given Him, for they are His. Romans 9 v. 13 – It is written “Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated.” It does not mean either that He loved Esau less!

            If God loves every single individual, then there would be none in hell, and we know this is not the case. God loved His own, chosen in Christ, before the world even begun, and they will in their lifetime be brought to Him by His saving grace and mercy, absolutely nothing of man, or his free-will. Salvation is of the Lord.

          • Soloved

            Respect? That’s what we need to do, respect the word. As we are to rightly divide it, 2 Tim.2:15.
            That means understanding it. Kosmos, if you would do a little further investigation,is a Greek word (as it was written in Greek) that is simply the “place where people live”, (You can read this in strongs Exaustive Concordence #2889). That’s pretty simple. Kosmos is also used in 1 John 2:2 were John speaks of the sin’s of the whole kosmos. Now we know Jesus did not die on the cross for a huge rock. One must understand that kosmos is referring to the “place people live”.

            When you say, reprobate, does that mean some type of sinner?
            There is but sinner’s (all kinds) that Jesus die for. The best scripture to show this is “God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. “ Romans 5:8. Yes, God love’s every single person, but the problem is, not every one believer’s this. If they did, they would reciprocate this love, That means respond to it. The best scripture for this is, “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” This is the proper way to understand John 3:16 by putting it in context with 17 and 18. This shows that its our choice to live in Heaven or hell. As there is a Heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

            God, being God, knows who will and who wont,
            ultimately believe. But that ‘s His thing, not our’s. We are not privy to such information. That’s why He tells us to go into all the world, kosmos, “the place people (that God loves and died for), live,” and preach the word, as it is for “whosoever will”. 1 John 2:2 again; “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and (not for ours only), but also for the sins of the whole world.” Here is the distinction between, us who believe and those that don’t believe ,yet!
            Thanks

          • Rose Fenton

            My husband has made the comment that there would have been No necessity for Christ to make us willing in the day of His power, if we could make the first move towards God, when we are spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins.

            Christ atoned for the sins of His chosen elect people, who were ordained to eternal life and chosen in Him even before the foundation of the world. There was never a universal atonement.

            Romans 8 says it all v. 29-30 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also CALLED, AND WHOM HE CALLED, THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIED, AND WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, THEM HE ALSO GLORIFIED. “

          • Soloved

            Salvation comes through faith. The last part of Ephesians 2:8 is : IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD (through faith), not of works, lest any man should boast.” Through faith, as it had just mentioned this earlier in this most
            famous scripture. It (the gift) is received through faith. Sure He gives all men(note; all men) ‘the measure’ of faith, but we must still use that faith to obtain what gift God has for us, which, in this case, is salvation. Call it what you want, but, it must not be works to have faith to believe, since salvation is “not of works.” How are
            we saved? “…. through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief (faith) in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13).

            This work of the Spirit, in 2 Thess.2:13, is
            to convict, or convince, the world (Kosmos) concerning
            sin and righteousness and judgment. Then, after this conviction or more accurate “Convincing”, a soul then applies faith, “faith in the truth”. Too narrow the
            field to just those that are “called” in your minds, is very shallow.

            Does God not know the future. Yes He does, as that’s what makes Him God. He does, as Romans 8 say’s, “foreknow”, “For whom he did foreknow,…” This foreknowledge is for His eye’s and His eye’s only. Thus, knowing who will accept His invitation and who will not, makes all the difference. He then can make arrangement
            for the ones who answered the call to then be; justified, sanctified and glorified.

            On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached before thousands who had gathered in Jerusalem. Luke writes, “With many other words he warned them; and
            he pleaded with them, ‘Save yourselves from this corrupt generation'” (Acts 2:40). Was Peter “pleading” with these people to do something they were impotent to do? He certainly gives no hint of it. Furthermore, Peter’s
            admonition “save yourselves” would probably be viewed as less than orthodox by many Calvinists. How could anyone “save themselves”, except by/through faith, believing.

            Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability of man. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, “otherwise they might turn and be forgiven” (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth, straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how?

            Again; Jesus sometimes “marvelled” at the unbelief of his hearers (Mark 6:6). But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God.

            Here In Romans 1:12, Paul writes of men who are “without excuse” because of the manifest presence of God in the creation. He says, “for although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
            their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened” Here we see men who became futile in their thinking and were given over to a darkened state of the heart. The apostle is not speaking of a condition of
            birth, but a judgment that came upon them because of “willful” (chosen) refusal to acknowledge the Creator. Thus a bad choice! But still, choice.

            Again,
            Zechariah says of rebellious Zion, “They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the Lord Almighty has sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets” (Zech. 7:12). Here,
            people made themselves insensible to the truth of God, indicating that they were not in this condition from the womb.

            The often stated promise that “the Lord
            is good to those who hope in him, to the one who seeks him” (Lam. 3:25), could not be if there is “total depravity in man”, This wonderful scripture brings total depravity to question when in Jeremiah 29:13 he say’s; “And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me
            with all your heart.” How could a heart of man do such a thing?

            Here in acts 17:26,27, Paul speaks about “men of all
            nations” and that they should seek the Lord and not only seek the Lord but “find Him”. “And has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and
            the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek
            the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:” Amazing scripture!

            Going on further to verse 30 of Acts 17, How can God,
            who is perfectly just, “command all men everywhere to repent” knowing;
            the command is impossible to obey? This is not even sensible!

            This is all meant to encourage and not brow beat you, dear one. Thanks

          • Rose Fenton

            Thank you, Soloved, but we believe you are too broad, whereas it is a narrow way that leads to life eternal.

            My husband has said “God only gives faith to His elect.”

            Yes, our very faith is a wonderful give from God.

            This quote from AW Pink says it all – “The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known.”

            I need to finish our conversations now, as I have many eye problems and find it difficult to read much at all. We could go on and go. Thank you for your time, trusting each of us may have just learned something along the narrow way, for the glory of the Lord.

          • Rose Fenton

            Soloved. Thank you for your reply, but am surprised you do not know that Salvation is all of the Lord, nothing of man’s choosing. Those who are saved and who are “in Christ” were chosen before the foundation of the world, and not “up to us” at all. Man is dead in his trespasses and sins and in total darkness, dead to any spiritual life. Only the Holy Spirit, is able to regenerate a sinner and bring them into the wonderful light of Christ.
            You need to search then who are the Reprobate! These are those who will never be saved, because God in His wisdom has rejected them. I believe there are 6 references to the Reprobate in the Bible, so we cannot ignore them.
            Thank you.

          • Soloved

            But you are right, Agreed, can not ignore them.
            The reprobate is a particular one who rejects Gods word. True, these do not fall under the common “sinner.” But still,God loves them, as He gave His Son to die for them as it tells us in 1 John 2:2. But, granted, they are in a pearliest shape (condition), as God turns them over to their foolish way, as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge. Romans 1:28. But they heard the word! As
            one can not resist God and His word, if they did not first have such opportunity of hearing it. Paul tells us the progression of faith, “In whom you also trusted, ‘after’ that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation…” Ephesians 1:13.

            One does not trust in God unto salvation,
            until ‘after’ hearing the Gospel. “… for the gospel of
            Christ: is the power of God unto salvation to every
            one that believes;…” Romans 1:16.

            The word even tell “us, who believe”, to; “Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how
            that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates?” 2 Corinthian 13:5.

          • Rose Fenton

            As God is all knowing and knows the end from the beginning and is our Sovereign Lord, Christ would not have died for the reprobate, knowing they would be lost!
            Christ died for His sheep only, His chosen elect people before the foundation of the world, and none will be lost.
            Yes, of course, we are ALL sinners, but thanks be to God for His grace and mercy, we who are Christ’s are saved sinners.
            Christ did not die for Esau or Judas either! His blood was never, ever, shed in vain, but the blood of Jesus Christ was shed for His chosen people.
            Agree with your chosen scriptures.

          • Soloved

            God knew from the beginning who would believe, and thus, who would not. But that does not preclude that God did not send His Son to die for them too. His chosen people are those that chose Him, just that God knew from the beginning who would chose Him. Here is a good teaching on this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2-l9TA8V0. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

          • Rose Fenton

            Thank you for replying, Soloved, but my spiritual understanding is that 1 John 2 v. 2 is speaking to the little children, which are ourselves, and following in the context, verse 2 here again is not referring to the whole world, for Christ did not pay for the sins of everyone, but is the whole world of believers.
            Regarding 2 Peter 3:9, if you will read it again, you will clearly see that the passage is speaking to the “beloved” and who are these, but Christ’s true sheep. That passage refers to the “usward” and who are the “usward” but again God’s chosen believers. Certainly not everyone.
            It is not God’s will that any of us (his people) should perish. He is so long-suffering to us!
            Time and time again, many take this wrongly. Please check it out.

          • Soloved

            But, this is not copacetic with the other
            scripture of those called, “whosoever”. Here is just a few of them; John 3:15,16, John 11:26, John 12:46, Acts 2:21, Acts 10:34, Romans 10:13, and Revelation 22:17.
            Here, time after time it is used to describe those that, can be saved. So, here Peter is speaking to both, those that have believed and those that will believe. It is the “whole council of God” that brings rightly dividing the word, thus the use of “whosoever” and “usward”

            No, there is more to it than narrow Calvinist doctrine. Sure, it is usward, us ‘that believe’, but also
            whosoeverward whosoever that, ‘shall believe’. This is copacetic with “Choose you this day whom you will serve” Joshua 24:15. Yes, we,(or whosoever) choose, as this is how we receive and “But as many as received him (by choice), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” John
            1:12. Right, then and only then, does the power to become sons of God, become available.
            Oh, and that “power” includes “Justification, sanctification and glorification”.
            “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.” James 4:8. We make the first move, by hearing the “the gospel of our salvation”, Ephesian 1:13.

          • Rose Fenton

            Thank you Soloved, but this must be short, as I have severe eye problems. Just to say that it is not just Calvinism to see what the Bible teaches, though that is preferred over Amyraldianism or Arminianism.
            Just one scripture says it all really. Acts 13 v. 48 “When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord, and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED>
            My husband and I believe totally in Predestination, and the sovereignty of God.

            Have you ever read AW Pink’s “Sovereignty of God?” unabridged version from Baker House. Wonderful book.

            We do not and cannot make the first move! It has to be all of God, the Holy Spirit, “quickening” us. Dead people cannot make themselves alive!
            Ephesians 2 v. 8 “For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith; (faith is given to us as a gift by God) and that not of yourself: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, not of works, lest any man should boast.”
            I think we shall have to leave it there.
            Thank you.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            And you are so sure you are infallible and she is necessarily wrong. That, friend, is the sin of hubris.

          • Soloved

            Iam glad you judged me as prideful, as I would not have noticed my error. Yet it was not pride, as it was a mere mistake, You know how that can happen on line if
            one is careless! But actually she has a point in that God is angry with the wicked, yet the great thing is that He so loved the world that he gave his Son,
            sent His Son into the world, “not to condemn the world”; but that the world through him might be saved. The verse I meant to share was John 3: 36, where God shows His wrath will still abide on those who refuse His offer of forgiveness.
            But the verse that makes this all understood is
            Proverbs 28:13; ““He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.”
            Its all in the repentance of the wicked, as
            all have sinned, Romans 3:23, but it is time to repent and receive His grace (blood bought forgiveness)! Thanks

          • IAN RAMSAY

            The bible says men shouldn’t trim their beards, etc. It says Jesus was attended by no angels, one angel,or two angels at his resurrection. It defends the divine right of kings (Rom. 13), the main issue Americans denied in overthrowing the divinely ordained George III of England.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Tessi, sweetheart, gaiety is not a choice. There are mountains of research that clearly establish it. You must be one of those anti-intellectuals who believe that demonstrable evidence can be ignored in favor of biases ill-gotten from poor readings of passages. I suspect you would have defended African slavery the way Southern preachers did in the 16th-19th centuries, or of the evil committed by American revolutionaries who defied Romans 13, or the pastors and priests who accepted the heliocentric explanation of the universe like Renaissance clergy did, or 19th and 20th century clergy who denied evolution, or wing-nut Republicans who deny the research of 99% of scientists who have determined humankind has contributed global warming. I might as well try to reason with an ape. You do not seem to be operating with the minimum intelligence necessary to consider your opinions debatable: lemmings mindlessly following cultic brainwashers into the Pit.

          • Dan Woods

            EVERYTHING is a choice

        • Lynn Van Daele

          Hi Ian, I have always been careful about not being one who casts the first stone. But in the bible their are lists and lists of written sins and attitudes and behaviors, that are sinful. The word says that when we know of what is right to do and we don’t do it, it is sin. Jesus said to the adulterous women, after no one could throw the first stone, go and sin no more,, he has said this more than once.
          I am appalled at the pictures you put on ,,, you are wanting to rile people up and make them angry,,, provoking people is not love. We are all blind to our own sins, we think we are overcoming and on the path of repentance, then more sinful thinking or behavior comes out of hiding and we have to work on repenting. I wish you light , and many blessings on your own journey of life.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Sweet MS Daele, [1] according to John’s gospel, the Word is Jesus not a book. Check the Greek if you can read Greek, of course. [2] In order for something to be a sin, it must be a conscious choice. According to all the scientific study done on the subject, homosexuality is not a choice; it is inborn in about 10% of the human population and is fount in about 400 other species. On the other hand, you could join the anti-intellectual rednecks who deny truth established through the scientific method–stupid choice. [3] The pictures were not meant to rile people but quite the opposite. They illustrate the beauty of monogamous love. They also show that many people do not read the bible like a Pharisee or you, sweetheart. [4] We are not all blind to our sins. You confuse morals and ethics. Morals are those things considered right or wrong for a given time and a given place like the ancient Hebrew view of homosexuality. Ethics are that which is considered right or wrong for all times and places like murder, rape, ignoring human experience and stupidity. The bible supports many morals no longer considered wrong like trimming beards, slavery, reduced status of women, tattoos, and men wearing long hair (as Jesus is most often portrayed in paintings). Homosexuality is clearly a moral prohibition not an ethical one or Jesus would have mentioned it, which He did not.

          • Tessi

            For the record, If you knew Jesus through the bible and studied His life, you would have at least remembered what He says in Luke 17 about sin, faith and duty 🙂

          • Tessi
          • IAN RAMSAY

            Sweetheart, all of your quotes and this link would be useful if your paper god, the book were all that there was to God, but it is not. You ignore the power of the Holy Spirit to speak outside your paper God, which is why all that you write is valueless. Certainly, I believe that there is good and inspired stuff in the bible, but there is much more inspired writing outside the confines of your paper god. You and your paper god deserve no more of my time. Rail on but I won’t my time with any response. Maybe you can amuse Mr. Buckner.

          • Tessi

            LOL you really have no idea what you are talking about…nuff said 🙂

          • Soloved

            Dare to call it “paper”. Its more than that.

            “For the word of God is living and powerful…” Hebrews 4:12

            “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3: 16.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Sweetheart, if John is correct, the Word of God is the Christ. The texts you read are the record of that God. Unfortunately, most fundamentalists like you do not treat it as living. You treat it as a dead thing to be parsed. It is given as inspiration–that is putting the Spirit into your life. You use it as a rule book, a law book. In doing so you fly in the face of the intent of John, Paul and most importantly Jesus who found elasticity, living tissue in the scriptures available to him at the time. You find only words with definitions written in a book which you worship more than the intent of the inspirations. This, Sweetheart, is why your bible ended in the second century and has not been added to since. There is no scriptural evidence to establish that the Holy Spirit is even finished with it. My husband and I wish you peace as you struggle with your idolatry.

          • Soloved

            Nothing wrong with the law, as it brings us to Christ. Paul said, “I would have not known sin without it” Romans 7:7. Jesus is that “living tissue” as you describe Him, as He live’s forever, and because He does, so will all who believe in Him!
            Ended in second century? Yes, and no, it will not ever be, added to. Speaking of ” words in a book which you worship more than the intent of the inspirations.”Jesus said , “you must abide, remain, in me (John 15:4-6), who is (and John is correct), the Word of God. John 1:1. The Holy Spirit is finished with it, but not with us.

        • Reinaldokool

          God neither hates you nor considers you a sinner. You are just like the rest of us. Trying to make a good life with the tools and materials at hand. God, if anything, cheers you on.

          If people read the bible, not merely literally, but without understanding its depth, they misread it. There is no condemnation of what we know as homosexuality in the bible. Of oppression of youth, yes. Of mistreatment of angels, yes. The sins were not homosexuality. But if they can’t read it, preferably in Hebrew and Greek, but at least in depth, you have no idea.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Thank you.

      • Connie

        This is a very divisive issue for Quakers, as it is for many faiths. You will find Friends (Quakers) on all sides of this. Quakers are by no means monolithic on this or many other things.

        • IAN RAMSAY

          True enough, but unlike other denominations, most unprogrammed Friends embrace the LGBTQ community and have developed an LGBTQ organization within the structure of the Friends General Conference in America. In doing so, Quakers deal with this issue directly in the loving arms of our religious society. Peace.

    • David the One

      Pennsylvania? Let’s tell it like it is. That state is the biggest concentration of Freemasons in the US. That vile tool of Satan affects everything that happens there. Added to my prayer list that the Holy Spirit changes your “Hardness of Heart”

      • IAN RAMSAY

        Of what relevance is the number of Free Masons to the presence of a lot of unprogrammed Friends. For our population, Pennsylvania has the largest concentration of Welsh speakers, Amish. Mennonites, and miles of state roads per person in the republic. If thee is trying to make some connection between Free Masonry and the Religious Society of Friends, thee is very much mistaken. There is no relationship whatever. Peace.

    • Hi Ian. I’m just being introduced to Quakerism (even though I grew up in Bucks County, PA) and am really intrigued. From what I had been reading, I was wondering how Quakers could be so reasonable and intelligent but still take the Bible as truth. Your comment has reinvigorated my quest to learn more as the beliefs of the “Unprogrammed Quakers” make a lot of sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to post.

      • IAN RAMSAY

        My pleasure. We do not dismiss the bible as non-truth; we examine the inspired. prophecy of yesteryear with the same criteria we use for present-day inspired speech (writing): from the bible, Paul and John. It must be given in love; it must not personally benefit the presenter; it must be open to discussion of the meeting. Therefore, we believe in continuing revelation.

        • “We study the bible usually from the viewpoint of literary criticism” is what resonated with me. I find a lot of positive messages in the Bible but also a lot of contradiction and even harmful messages as well, which is what led me away from religion in general after being raised Presbyterian.

          I have a really hard time with people advocating judgement/harm/hate in the name of a book that, to me, is clearly just a collective work of literature. I’m completely on-board with studying The Bible just as we study works of Homer, Shakespeare, etc., but I don’t believe it to be “true”. I also don’t believe Jesus Christ to be anything more than a man with good intentions and positive messages. Would you say that my beliefs would be accepted within the unplugged Quaker community?

          • IAN RAMSAY

            “Unplugged (?) Quaker community? The Quaker s have no dogma, so if thee lives by our testimonies: integrity, simplicity, equality, community, stewardship, and peace you would be welcome. But we are not a mere ethical or debating club. We are the Religious Society of Friends (of Truth). Being a religious society, we do believe in the leadership of the Light or the Spirit or the Holy Spirit depending on your relationship to Christianity. The testimonies are a collection of characteristics of Jesus’ ministry and teaching. Quakerism stretches from liberal Christianity to Universalism. Quakerism without the devotion to the Light/Spirit is Unitarianism and Universalism. We believe that there is “that of God” in each person. You may define God as you are moved by the Spirit to believe. Our silent worship is in expectant waiting for the Light/Spirit to inspire someone to speak to the meeting during worship. Your presentation of Jesus is rather dismissive. Many Quakers are not Christian in the sense that Jesus is the “Son of God”. But to say that Jesus was only a bright man with good intentions seems a bit too humanitarian; although, in my meeting there are a couple of humanitarians, but they believe in the testimonies based on Jesus’ life especially peace. Quakers are pacifists and oppose war and violence. We automatically are classed as conscientious objectors. Most Quakers would remind you that the bible is not just a literary fiction. The writers of the biblical books, we believe, were inspired by the Spirit to write what they did, so the writings are granted more respect and worth of deeper contemplation than Shakespeare or Homer, about whose work we might study literary style and wisdom only. The religious element of a Quaker’s cannot be ignored. Ours is in the final analysis for most of us, a mystical religion for scholars, believers, and people wholly aware of the physical needs of the poor, disenfranchised, unloved, sick, and deprived. We work hard for the rights of racial minorities, prisoners, immigrants, and the poor because we are led by the Spirit to do so. We are led to be politically active in liberal concerns for fairness, justice and honesty. We find these projects important mostly because they are considered important in the bible, especially through the teachings of Jesus. Any time we meet, we meet as a “meeting for worship with attention to . . .” morning worship, business, marriage, fellowship, etc. Peace.

          • Hmmm… this is where most religions lose me. I don’t understand why we can’t believe all of the great things you mentioned without having to tie it to The Bible? Please don’t in any way take this as an attack – I’m genuinely curious.

            If we treat The Bible objectively as just another work of literature, we can pull the best of it as positive inspiration for out lives. But if we elevate it to special status, we must elevate the entire work including the terrible, hateful parts that preach judgement and violence towards other human beings. I’m not sure how any thoughtful, peaceful, loving human being could endorse a book containing such hateful instruction.

            I very much believe in a divine spirit that interweaves us all. I think it’s logical to think that the gods and spirituality of organized religions all allude to this spirit in their own terms, but for me, most get hung up on trying to leverage the spirit to elevate themselves over other groups of humans.

            When you say “You may define God as you are moved by the Spirit to believe”, does this mean you can be a humanitarian Quaker who does believe in a Light/Spirit but one that exists outside The Bible, The Koran, etc? As a new father, I do want to bring a sense of organized community, spirituality, humility, and love into our family but I would not be able to tell my son that I believe The Bible is a good thing to “believe in”.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            To answer thy question: thee may be a humanitarian Quaker. I cannot because I am moved to believe differently. As I said before, Quakers have no dogma so if thee is under the care of a monthly meeting as an agreed to member, what thee believes can be open to discussion in a clearness committee of your choosing. There thee can be helped to discern if thy understanding is truth to thee or a personal wish without a spiritual component. The Light leads each of us as we can be best led. We can be helped in that leading to determine its veracity. Quakers live in community. One is a Friend only when one commits to being a Friend and one’s meeting acknowledges that commitment–as with any other religious organization.

          • Not sure why you went Old-English on me, but my thanks to thee. I appreciate the insight and I think I’ll check out a local meeting the next time I’m back in PA.

          • IAN RAMSAY

            It’s what Quakers where I live use for the familiar “you”. All Quakers used it at one time. It’s called plain speech. At one time, only close family and persons of importance used thee, like God. Everyone else was called you. Quakers believed all persons were equal and called everyone by the familiar second person. Except for some places in Wales and Cornwall the practice has died out. I like it because it reminds me that all persons are equal, even those people I don’t like. For meetings in Eastern PA look up “PYM.org”. Peace.

          • Interesting! I like that. Thanks for the link : )

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Oh, WC! I’m so sad, crushed even. Miss Tessi thinks that I don’t understand her paper idolatry. WOW, with nearly a PhD in theology, ah don’t know nuthin’ ’bout nuthin’! Po’ redneck ended in sech a intelleegent, digneefahed way dat jes’ blowed me away–“nuff said”. I is shor dat mah beautiful model husband is gunna want a divorce. Nuff said indeed. Thank God I went to school in Wales. Peace and best wishes

          • Alex

            Ian, for someone with a PhD in theology, there is a lot of vitriol in your speech. Tessi disagreed with you, but she was respectful. You could learn from her example. Matthew 5:46

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Alex, Tessi is hardly respectful if she comments on my writings without reading them. Clearly, she has not read them. She writes, “If you knew Jesus through the bible and studied His life, you would have at least remembered what He says in Luke 17 about sin, faith and duty :).” Except we don’t know Jesus as Son of God through the bible. We know Jesus as saviour because the Holy Spirit has enlightened us. Many read the bible and do not believe. The mechanical act of reading does not cause one to know Jesus in any real way. It is only when the Spirit acts on us that belief and faith are possible. We do not save ourselves, the Spirit saves us by grace whether or not we have read a bible. She ignores that. She is exasperating to the point of total rudeness. Her reference to Luke 17 is not at all germane to the present discussion. She has totally missed the point of here. It is a discussion about the nature of truth and the obvious weaknesses in using the bible as an inerrant source for scientific data when all other research speaks to the opposite conclusion. Apparently, American schools are weak in teaching logic and the scientific method.

          • Alex

            so, basically, your reason for rudeness/mocking is she started it?

          • IAN RAMSAY

            Too bad you didn’t read my reply to Tessi with any more understanding than she did. You people deserve the likes of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz as your republic’s political leaders. At least I can go back home to Wales after I finish my research here and my husband finishes his modeling contract. you are condemned to remain here and watch your republic’s world reputation totally disintegrate in Chicago this summer.

          • Guest

            That is not very Quaker of you considering a great many innocent people are going to suffer due to Donald Trump and the republican congress. Also, don’t lump all American’s in with them.

    • Reinaldokool

      Thank you for this more complete explanation. Mr. Wellman’s article shocked me as it did not represent any of my many Quaker friends. In fact, I am a Presbyterian clergy, but if an occurance of chance (Yes, I do believe in chance) had not deemed it so, I could well be a Quaker. “Some of my best friends are Quakers.” LOL. In fact, a few have become Quakers after years of identifying as Buddhists, others as Pagans.

      I am happy that the Quakers have not let Augustine, Calvin, Arminius and the rest, invade their more perfect religion.

      • IAN RAMSAY

        Thanks. Buddhism lacks a god. Pagans allow for too many gods. So am I. I am also glad they have not slipped into univeralism as I notice some other uber-liberal Christians have. Unprogrammed Friends are pretty much what Unprogrammed have been from the beginning, seekers of the Light as the Light gives us guidance.

  • Andrew Gage

    I think that whenever someone from a mainline religious church tries to understand Quakers, that’s a good and welcome enterprise. It’s not so much that you have it wrong, so much (as you can probably see), you’ve failed to appreciate the diversity within Quakers, and spoken with a bit more confidence than is warranted (no Quaker would try to summarize all Quaker thought in this way).

    In terms of the content of the piece – I think it’s an oversimplification to say that Quakers feel that people are inherently good (although some might well) – more that they inherently have good (indeed “something of God”) within them and we act as Friends to them when we engage with that. In terms of your suggestion that that’s unbiblical, I set the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32), and his constant concern for the poor and the sinner as children of God, against your couple of quotes from Romans and a misinterpretation of the Lord’s Prayer (which affirms that God is our father – and doesn’t exclude anyone from that parentage).

    To address the quotes from Romans (which, of course, are Paul’s not Jesus’, although I recognize that distinction may not be so important to you), I would ask whether Jesus, in chastising Peter as Satan (Matt. 16:23), meant that Peter was no longer a child of God was was literally Satan? If your answer is no, then how is that different from the emotive language in Romans?

    Modern Friends, myself included, often do not know their Bible terribly well, but the early Friends certainly knew it inside out (it was said of George Fox that if every copy of the Bible was destroyed, Fox would be able to recreate it from memory). So I would caution against claiming that your own interpretation is authoritative.

    But, once again, I thank you for trying to understand the views of Friends, and will hold you in the Light if you continue in that search.

  • lemondrop1

    someone told me the Quakers are liberal , ok how can you believe in Jesus as your Savior but think abortion is a personal choice? or how can you think same sex marriage is right? if in genesis, God said, ” let us make man in our image” NIV< there is only one way to God, and that is thru his son, and having faith that Jesus is the savior and is God .

    • IAN RAMSAY

      Actually, NIV translates the line “let us make MANKIND in our image,” which is to say all humanity or both sexes. This is not a statement about the sex of God and males, it is a statement about the spiritual and creative nature shared by God and all humans (including homosexuals). Thee would be hard pressed to explain how creative and spiritual people (who also happened to be homosexual as well) like Michelangelo, Handel, Schubert, St John Neuman, Eleanor Roosevelt et al. were not created in the image of God. The Beatitudes tell us that peacemakers like Neuman and E. Roosevelt are the children of God. Thee underestimates the variety of God’s blessed saints. Peace.

    • IAN RAMSAY

      RE: thy second sentence: thee is quite correct to say that having faith that Jesus is savoiur and is God is the way to God. Such a statement does not require a particular sexual orientation as a necessary consideration to reach God. Only the faith is required. Peace.

  • Connie

    I’m not sure how I found this post, but I was shocked. I have been around Friends from all of the various “streams” of Quakerism for over twenty years and a member of the Religious Society of Friends for almost that many. The author really ought to take this post down as he completely misrepresents our faith. He needs to do more research and perhaps should talk to some actual real life Quakers. It is very hard to generalize about Quakers.

    As to Scripture, Conservative Friends believe (and Scripture tells us) that Jesus is the Word of God – not the bible. Although many Quakers from the Evangelical and Liberal branches would likely disagree, perhaps readers might be interested in these words from early Quaker Robert Barclay that a F/friend of mine posted recently on another site:

    the Scriptures “are only a declaration of the fountain, and not the fountain itself… they give a true and faithful testimony of the first foundation, they are and may be esteemed a secondary rule, subordinate to the Spirit, from which they have all their excellency and certainty: for as by the inward testimony of the Spirit we do alone truly know them, so they testify that the Spirit is that Guide by which the saints are led into all truth.” (Robert Barclay, Apology, Third Proposition, 1678)

    • IAN RAMSAY

      Thank thee for this. It is a blessing in this discussion. Further, most unprogrammed Friends believe in continuing revelation, which is why the Christian scriptures in its fourth-century static form, while instructive and useful, is incomplete because it does not record the activity of the Spirit/Light since then. Peace.

      • Connie

        I experience Jesus Christ as a Living Presence in my life. I also recognize my Lord when I read Scripture and He can help me understand it better. Of course, I would expect Christ Jesus… as Himself, not just as pages of a book… to continue to be my Guide and Inner Teacher now and in the future.

        That said, I wouldn’t expect Christ to guide me in ways that were contrary to Scripture either. He could, however, give me new insight or understanding of Scripture though – perhaps in light of new information or study – or “revelation.” My non-Quaker Christian friends say the Holy Spirit does this for them. I use this term frequently now also. Also, just as it’s hard to be a Christian by yourself, it’s hard to be a Quaker by yourself. Other Friends, especially those with gifts of eldering, have helped me discern how my Guide is leading me.

        Theology is interesting, but it isn’t a substitute for faithfulness or an end in itself.

        I think Friends of all stripes would agree that the important thing is how we love and live our lives in THIS world. Professing belief for the sake of professing belief – without it impacting how we live our lives – is, in my Friendly opinion, worthless.

  • David the One

    I have been the Chair of my local Churches Together, am committed to an a view of the Church that is inclusive. Now it may be the influence of Satan, but I do not believe so, that the biggest threats to Christianity are the Mormons, founded in US by a sociopath, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, founded in US by Russel, a sociopath and a molestor of the young and vulnerable. I have friends who are Friends, but they are not US, nor influenced in any way by the commercialism and shallowness that comes from that country.

  • Jamie Archer

    How is it that the author has professed a lack of effort in writing this article over a year ago yet has not changed it? This is such an inaccurate summation of Quakerism.

  • Shane Moad

    I have been a Conservative Friend for twenty years now and my faith is based in Christs words as relayed in scripture and His ongoing influence in this world and my life. Although it’s true that today there are many branches of Quakers that do not believe in many things that are in scripture (if any) or the original testimony of the first Quakers, which was steeped in Christ and the scriptures, however there are still many of us grounded in that Truth. It is also fair to say that many Quakers do not even believe in a God, to me that is strange but it is what it is.

  • Peter Leeson

    I hope that one day, you may actually meet some Friends and discover what they truly believe. Unfortunately, that is unlikely, as it would require and open spirit and a willingness to dialogue – as Quakers encourage. I gather that, as you state in your last paragraph, you believe that salvation can only come through ritualized acts of confession, water-based baptism, and the unwavering trust in someone’s interpretation of texts written in a particular context several millennia ago, to the exclusion of any discoveries, science or progress made since.

  • Rose Fenton

    To Soloved. How could I possibly forget the main scripture – Ephesians 2 v. 1 AND YOU HATH HE QUICKENED, WHO WERE DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS….”

  • Michael Allerton

    Somehow in all this everyone forgot to mention Quaker Oats.

  • carter

    It’s no wonder, I think after after perusing this thread, that we are told that we are to be ‘like children’ to receive.

  • Snoo Lee

    The Quakers I know of are a bunch of jerks who are high on themselves, borderline blasphemy. They are full of political control games and reject others, do not accept other people outside of their cult that is ruled by allegience to “alternative culture.” For example, there is a lesbian couple who have two children from one of them getting commercially bought insemination. The problem is they deny these children who is their father and do this doll-house make-believe where one of the women is the “daddy” and the biologic mother is mommy. What they are doing in illegal in Europe, have a child and deny to the child who is their family and lineage and where they came from and who are their biologic parents. I told this to my (former) quaker friend and he acted like the lesbian couple were Gods who had control over him, and he has not spoken to me since. So that is what I think of these “modern” USA city Quakers. The ones I know are total heretics who worship themselves. It’s gross.

    edit: And another very serious “Quaker” from the same “church” is going on a trip to Asia. Well and good. Then he confided that part of his trip is experiential sex-tourism and he talks this crap of “polyamory” for him and his wife. I find them to be immature intolerant people beset with their own gratification, very very far from Godly spirituality. They’re sequestered off in a cult is what they are. One of the polyamory people wants to indoctrinate people via television programming. So he wants to use the TV for propaganda, has no concept of autonomy or respect for other people, just wants to co-opt them. I told him about “polyamory” that that used to be called being promiscuous. As you can guess, he did not appreciate my view of his glossed-up marketing.

  • Reinaldokool

    I have worshipped with Quakers at many times and places. Many of my friends are “Friends”. This article in no way reflects their connection with God. Thank God.

  • If you wish to know what the early Quakers taught, you may find the writings of George Fox and some of the other early Quakers on Hall V Worthington’s Quaker website.