Tea Party game plan

Veteran conservative activist Richard Viguerie thinks the “Tea Party” movement may actually have a chance to roll back government to its constitutional limits, something even Ronald Reagan was unable to do. For it to do so, however, and avoid the fate of other transient political movements, he recommends this game plan:

Be independent.

Most important, tea partiers must remain distinct from both political parties. The GOP would like nothing better than to co-opt the movement and control the independent conservatives who are its members. But we must keep in mind that perhaps the single biggest mistake of the conservative movement was becoming an appendage of the Republican Party.

In his 1976 presidential primary campaign, Reagan said we needed new leaders unfettered by old ties and old relationships. The tea party does not have the old ties and old relationships with Republican politicians that Reagan was talking about and that caused so many conservative leaders to lose their way. Remember that most conservative leaders and organizations in Washington were silent when George W. Bush and congressional Republicans were expanding government at a record-breaking pace. Even today, too many conservatives are willing to overlook the fact that the GOP's leaders in Congress, Sen. Mitch McConnell and Rep. John Boehner, were willing accomplices of Bush's spending policies and that Mitt Romney was for Obamacare before Obama was.

Go on a policy offensive.

We must take on policy initiatives that will fundamentally change America but that, because of crony politics, neither political party will touch. Tea partiers already know that promoting complete adherence to the Constitution, and particularly to the 10th Amendment — which reserves the powers not explicitly granted to the federal government for the states and the people — is the way to change policy. Using this approach, we need to move major proposals to the center of debate and action, among them audits of the Federal Reserve, a restructured tax code and an end to corrupt gerrymandering. We must also pursue constitutional amendments mandating term limits, a balanced budget with tax limitations and an end to automatic citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants.

Pressure institutions to change.

We must expand our cause beyond anger at politicians. Wall Street banks once operated with the knowledge that individual integrity is essential to the functioning of a free market, but now we haveGoldman Sachs executives cheering the housing market collapse. So, rather than focus solely on government, we also need to train a spotlight on the failed leaders of other major American institutions from Hollywood to Wall Street, including big business, banks, mainstream media, labor unions and organized religion (notably my own Catholic Church).

Tea partiers must make ourselves a constant presence and conscience in the lives of those we elect. Once politicians get into office, they are surrounded by lobbyists and special interests that want more, not less, from government. We must push back by making our influence felt at a steady procession of meetings, breakfasts and dinners, and we must speak up via letters, phone calls, e-mails and town hall meetings. Too often after we send people to Washington, we hear from them only through their fundraising appeals. We need face-to-face contact to remind them that we’re here to support them when they do right, and that we’ll vote them out when they do wrong.

Avoid the third-party trap.

Just as the tea party movement must not be co-opted by either of the major parties, nor can it yield to the temptation to start a third party. In 2008, Republicans lost three Senate races because of conservative third-party candidates. Those losses have made it more difficult to oppose and defeat liberal judicial nominations, Obamacare, cap-and-trade legislation and other policies that, even in a best-case scenario, will take conservatives years to undo.

As a practical matter, the two major parties have rigged the rules against third parties, all but ensuring defeat. If conservatives fall into the third-party trap, they will split the right-of-center vote, thereby guaranteeing the left’s control of America for at least another generation. The opportunity of a lifetime will have been wasted.

This doesn’t mean we should automatically support whatever candidates Republicans put up. The tea party electoral strategy should be simple and consistent: We must run principled conservatives in the primaries and then throw our support behind the most conservative major-party candidates in the general election.

via From an old-school conservative, advice for the tea party.

Let me add some more advice:  Drop the violent and seditious rhetoric.  I know what Thomas Jefferson said.  Thomas Jefferson, despite his many good ideas, was a Jacobin, an advocate of a French-style revolution.  He is not on your side.

Try not to scare people.  Americans really do tend to be conservative, which means they have little sympathy with radicals of any stripe, including radical conservatives.

Any other advice that could channel this populist uprising in a positive direction?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Winston Smith

    I would second the call to drop the violent and seditious rhetoric. The Tea Partiers should not give their enemies any ammunition (figuratively speaking) to use against them.

  • Winston Smith

    I would second the call to drop the violent and seditious rhetoric. The Tea Partiers should not give their enemies any ammunition (figuratively speaking) to use against them.

  • Tom Hering

    A political movement is just dreaming if it thinks its opponents and their ideas will finally – somehow – go away forever. We will never have an all-socialist or all-libertarian America. Not without keeping about half the people down.

    By the way, I think most Americans are moderates (of one stripe or another).

  • Tom Hering

    A political movement is just dreaming if it thinks its opponents and their ideas will finally – somehow – go away forever. We will never have an all-socialist or all-libertarian America. Not without keeping about half the people down.

    By the way, I think most Americans are moderates (of one stripe or another).

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    It’ll never happen.

    The news media is too strong. The unions have too much money. And the public school system is pumping out little Socialists by the millions each and every year.

    This horse is out of the barn. (sorry to say)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    It’ll never happen.

    The news media is too strong. The unions have too much money. And the public school system is pumping out little Socialists by the millions each and every year.

    This horse is out of the barn. (sorry to say)

  • Dan Kempin

    OK, I’m not trying to be dense, but . . .

    WHAT violent and seditious rhetoric? What have you heard at a “tea party” that would qualify?

  • Dan Kempin

    OK, I’m not trying to be dense, but . . .

    WHAT violent and seditious rhetoric? What have you heard at a “tea party” that would qualify?

  • John C

    Does the Tea Party movement have a manifesto?
    Who speaks on their behalf?
    Will the libertarians ever embrace the social reactionaries?

  • John C

    Does the Tea Party movement have a manifesto?
    Who speaks on their behalf?
    Will the libertarians ever embrace the social reactionaries?

  • Tom Hering

    A political movement is dreaming if it thinks there will come a day when its opponents and their ideas will go away forever. We will never have an all-socialist or all-libertarian America. Not without keeping about half the people down. So … is the Tea Party the movement that can bring Americans together – to work and to compromise for the benefit of everyone?

  • Tom Hering

    A political movement is dreaming if it thinks there will come a day when its opponents and their ideas will go away forever. We will never have an all-socialist or all-libertarian America. Not without keeping about half the people down. So … is the Tea Party the movement that can bring Americans together – to work and to compromise for the benefit of everyone?

  • sg

    “Even today, too many conservatives are willing to overlook the fact that the GOP's leaders in Congress, Sen. Mitch McConnell and Rep. John Boehner, were willing accomplices of Bush's spending policies and that Mitt Romney was for Obamacare before Obama was.”

    The media simply asserts that these people overlook the overspending of the GOP.

    The people themselves are mad about it.

    “Will the libertarians ever embrace the social reactionaries?”

    He, he, “social reactionaries”, those folks who yearn for the old days when 95% of kids were born to married parents.

  • sg

    “Even today, too many conservatives are willing to overlook the fact that the GOP's leaders in Congress, Sen. Mitch McConnell and Rep. John Boehner, were willing accomplices of Bush's spending policies and that Mitt Romney was for Obamacare before Obama was.”

    The media simply asserts that these people overlook the overspending of the GOP.

    The people themselves are mad about it.

    “Will the libertarians ever embrace the social reactionaries?”

    He, he, “social reactionaries”, those folks who yearn for the old days when 95% of kids were born to married parents.

  • Mary Ann Coley

    The Tea Party manifesto should be the Constitution. Strict Constitutionalists may become the leaders, but not just one leader in my opinion.

  • Mary Ann Coley

    The Tea Party manifesto should be the Constitution. Strict Constitutionalists may become the leaders, but not just one leader in my opinion.

  • Joe

    John C – it does not really have a manifesto. it is not really a single organization. Each city/state Tea Party group is independent of any sort of higher structure. Its de facto manifesto is restricting the federal gov’t to its limited role as set forth in the constitution.

    Here is a suggested game plan that I think Tea Partiers would do well to heed:
    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/04/27/advice-to-tea-partiers/

    As far a libertarians and social issues, the real question in my mind is will social conservatives ever embrace federalism and leave the issues to the states where they belong.

  • Joe

    John C – it does not really have a manifesto. it is not really a single organization. Each city/state Tea Party group is independent of any sort of higher structure. Its de facto manifesto is restricting the federal gov’t to its limited role as set forth in the constitution.

    Here is a suggested game plan that I think Tea Partiers would do well to heed:
    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/04/27/advice-to-tea-partiers/

    As far a libertarians and social issues, the real question in my mind is will social conservatives ever embrace federalism and leave the issues to the states where they belong.

  • CRB

    For the Christians in the movement, pray…a lot!

  • CRB

    For the Christians in the movement, pray…a lot!

  • Andrew

    Tim Wise asks us to imagine what would things be like if the racial make up of the tea baggers and the president were reversed.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/146616/what_if_the_tea_party_were_black

    Here’s how it begins…

    “Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters —the black protesters — spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn’t like were enforced by the government? Would these protesters — these black protesters with guns — be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans? Because, after all, that’s what happened recently when white gun enthusiasts descended upon the nation’s capital, arms in hand, and verbally announced their readiness to make war on the country’s political leaders if the need arose.”

  • Andrew

    Tim Wise asks us to imagine what would things be like if the racial make up of the tea baggers and the president were reversed.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/146616/what_if_the_tea_party_were_black

    Here’s how it begins…

    “Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters —the black protesters — spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn’t like were enforced by the government? Would these protesters — these black protesters with guns — be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans? Because, after all, that’s what happened recently when white gun enthusiasts descended upon the nation’s capital, arms in hand, and verbally announced their readiness to make war on the country’s political leaders if the need arose.”

  • John C

    And men were men and women knew their place, sg.
    A time when the divorce rate was low and collars were stiff.
    And children repected their elders.

  • John C

    And men were men and women knew their place, sg.
    A time when the divorce rate was low and collars were stiff.
    And children repected their elders.

  • sg

    He, he. Tim Wise is a liar.

    You can’t carry firearms in DC.

    No one was arrested because Tea Party goers are law abiding.

    No one at a Tea Party in DC had firearms.

    Joe, it is the liberals who make a federal case of everything and want to force everyone to be the same.

  • sg

    He, he. Tim Wise is a liar.

    You can’t carry firearms in DC.

    No one was arrested because Tea Party goers are law abiding.

    No one at a Tea Party in DC had firearms.

    Joe, it is the liberals who make a federal case of everything and want to force everyone to be the same.

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    Andrew,
    The average Tea Partier is not a racist. In fact there are many ‘people of color’ (to use Mr. Wise’s phrase) in their ranks.
    Many commentaters warned that opposition to government policy would be painted as racism after the election, and this prediction has come true.

    Conservative rhetoric has nothing on the hate speech reserved for Bush, and especially Sarah Palin, whom I have personally heard referred to as the “c-word” in conversations among both customers and co-workers, and even relatives on half a dozen occasions.
    Even you call the Tea Party “tea baggers’ which is a sexually charged slur. (I heard one party member say ‘If we are the Tea Baggers, who is getting tea bagged?)

    I hang around enough ‘liberals’ and proponents of the politics of the hard left to know that the rhetoric of the extreme left is just as bad as anything they accuse the Tea Party of.

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    Andrew,
    The average Tea Partier is not a racist. In fact there are many ‘people of color’ (to use Mr. Wise’s phrase) in their ranks.
    Many commentaters warned that opposition to government policy would be painted as racism after the election, and this prediction has come true.

    Conservative rhetoric has nothing on the hate speech reserved for Bush, and especially Sarah Palin, whom I have personally heard referred to as the “c-word” in conversations among both customers and co-workers, and even relatives on half a dozen occasions.
    Even you call the Tea Party “tea baggers’ which is a sexually charged slur. (I heard one party member say ‘If we are the Tea Baggers, who is getting tea bagged?)

    I hang around enough ‘liberals’ and proponents of the politics of the hard left to know that the rhetoric of the extreme left is just as bad as anything they accuse the Tea Party of.

  • Andrew

    Here are Wise’s final two paragraphs:

    “Protest is only seen as fundamentally American when those who have long had the luxury of seeing themselves as prototypically American engage in it. When the dangerous and dark “other” does so, however, it isn’t viewed as normal or natural, let alone patriotic. Which is why Rush Limbaugh could say, this past week, that the Tea Parties are the first time since the Civil War that ordinary, common Americans stood up for their rights: a statement that erases the normalcy and “American-ness” of blacks in the civil rights struggle, not to mention women in the fight for suffrage and equality, working people in the fight for better working conditions, and LGBT folks as they struggle to be treated as full and equal human beings.

    And this, my friends, is what white privilege is all about. The ability to threaten others, to engage in violent and incendiary rhetoric without consequence, to be viewed as patriotic and normal no matter what you do, and never to be feared and despised as people of color would be, if they tried to get away with half the sh– we do, on a daily basis.”

  • Andrew

    Here are Wise’s final two paragraphs:

    “Protest is only seen as fundamentally American when those who have long had the luxury of seeing themselves as prototypically American engage in it. When the dangerous and dark “other” does so, however, it isn’t viewed as normal or natural, let alone patriotic. Which is why Rush Limbaugh could say, this past week, that the Tea Parties are the first time since the Civil War that ordinary, common Americans stood up for their rights: a statement that erases the normalcy and “American-ness” of blacks in the civil rights struggle, not to mention women in the fight for suffrage and equality, working people in the fight for better working conditions, and LGBT folks as they struggle to be treated as full and equal human beings.

    And this, my friends, is what white privilege is all about. The ability to threaten others, to engage in violent and incendiary rhetoric without consequence, to be viewed as patriotic and normal no matter what you do, and never to be feared and despised as people of color would be, if they tried to get away with half the sh– we do, on a daily basis.”

  • DonS

    No one has yet answered the question concerning what violent and seditious rhetoric the Tea Partiers have engaged in. And, as usual, the issue of race is being raised only by those on the left who fear having a genuine discussion on the issues.

  • DonS

    No one has yet answered the question concerning what violent and seditious rhetoric the Tea Partiers have engaged in. And, as usual, the issue of race is being raised only by those on the left who fear having a genuine discussion on the issues.

  • Andrew

    DonS, thanks (I guess) for exemplifying the truth of Wise’s observations.

  • Andrew

    DonS, thanks (I guess) for exemplifying the truth of Wise’s observations.

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    Andrew,

    Every mass protest in this country’s history has draped itself in the American flag and laid claim to being ‘truly patriotic’ and the other side always lays to it charges of being evil and un-American. So what else is new? Now add the charges of racism and sedition. Whatever.

    Context is everything. If Limbaugh was refering to the middle class, his statement would be true in that context without negating the civil rights movement. (And yes the middle class, like the Tea party movement includes many people of different ethnic and racial backgrounds.) All we get from your linked article is a snippet of what he said. It’s Political Savvy 101 to withhold judgement until the wider context of his words are known. (Like the press never misquotes Limbaugh, or anybody else for that matter.)

    But its OK for you to make sweeping general statements and sexual innuendo about ‘tea baggers’ being racist and violent, and to minimize the helplessness and discontent they feel because the government is out of control and has been for years. (In case you haven’t noticed, the Tea party isn’t very happy with the Republicans, and that’s not good news for many incumbent Republicans )

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    Andrew,

    Every mass protest in this country’s history has draped itself in the American flag and laid claim to being ‘truly patriotic’ and the other side always lays to it charges of being evil and un-American. So what else is new? Now add the charges of racism and sedition. Whatever.

    Context is everything. If Limbaugh was refering to the middle class, his statement would be true in that context without negating the civil rights movement. (And yes the middle class, like the Tea party movement includes many people of different ethnic and racial backgrounds.) All we get from your linked article is a snippet of what he said. It’s Political Savvy 101 to withhold judgement until the wider context of his words are known. (Like the press never misquotes Limbaugh, or anybody else for that matter.)

    But its OK for you to make sweeping general statements and sexual innuendo about ‘tea baggers’ being racist and violent, and to minimize the helplessness and discontent they feel because the government is out of control and has been for years. (In case you haven’t noticed, the Tea party isn’t very happy with the Republicans, and that’s not good news for many incumbent Republicans )

  • DonS

    Andrew, I’m not following you. I don’t understand Wise’s “observations”, because he appears to be saying that the view of those in the Tea Party movement is that only they have the right to protest. Who in the Tea Party movement is actually saying that? They are advocating their own issues, as all Americans have a right to do. They are not saying that others do not have the same right to advocate their issues. Their beef is with the federal government, not other Americans.

    Pony up the evidence, Andrew. So far, your argument seems to be “Tea Partiers are racists, and if they deny that they are racists that proves they are racist”.

    Unconvincing, to say the least.

  • DonS

    Andrew, I’m not following you. I don’t understand Wise’s “observations”, because he appears to be saying that the view of those in the Tea Party movement is that only they have the right to protest. Who in the Tea Party movement is actually saying that? They are advocating their own issues, as all Americans have a right to do. They are not saying that others do not have the same right to advocate their issues. Their beef is with the federal government, not other Americans.

    Pony up the evidence, Andrew. So far, your argument seems to be “Tea Partiers are racists, and if they deny that they are racists that proves they are racist”.

    Unconvincing, to say the least.

  • Kirk

    I think the violent and seditious rhetoric Veith is referring to is Jefferson’s quote: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ” Which is bandied about frequently at Tea Party protests. And carrying guns, even though it’s legal in a strict sense, definitely projects a violent message. Sure, it’s a 2nd Amendment right, but I think it’s pretty naive to assume that a man advocating political change while carrying a rifle might be trying to send a strong (and frankly, undemocratic) message. I’ve also seen a few signs that say “unarmed (this time)” and there are the comparisons of Obama to various dictators and super villains. I don’t think that any of this is part of the broader Tea Party’s messaging as a whole, but it’s an issue of bad apples spoiling the bunch. I don’t agree with much of what the Tea Party advocates, but they do have a legitimate message to express. The vitriol and ad hominem proves a tough layer to cut through, though.

  • Kirk

    I think the violent and seditious rhetoric Veith is referring to is Jefferson’s quote: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ” Which is bandied about frequently at Tea Party protests. And carrying guns, even though it’s legal in a strict sense, definitely projects a violent message. Sure, it’s a 2nd Amendment right, but I think it’s pretty naive to assume that a man advocating political change while carrying a rifle might be trying to send a strong (and frankly, undemocratic) message. I’ve also seen a few signs that say “unarmed (this time)” and there are the comparisons of Obama to various dictators and super villains. I don’t think that any of this is part of the broader Tea Party’s messaging as a whole, but it’s an issue of bad apples spoiling the bunch. I don’t agree with much of what the Tea Party advocates, but they do have a legitimate message to express. The vitriol and ad hominem proves a tough layer to cut through, though.

  • sg

    “And this, my friends, is what white privilege is all about. ”

    Actually it is not.

    The real privilege is the great Western Christian tradition we have inherited. Consider the visiting African chief who marveled at the civilization in Britain. Queen Victoria gave him a copy of the Bible and explained that it was the source of Europe’s greatness.

    Beautiful painting of Queen Victoria presenting him a Bible:

    http://www.arthermitage.org/Thomas-Jones-Barker/Queen-Victoria-Giving-the-Bible-to-an-African-Chief.html

    Criticizing oneself and humbling oneself to obedience to God is the greatest privilege.

  • sg

    “And this, my friends, is what white privilege is all about. ”

    Actually it is not.

    The real privilege is the great Western Christian tradition we have inherited. Consider the visiting African chief who marveled at the civilization in Britain. Queen Victoria gave him a copy of the Bible and explained that it was the source of Europe’s greatness.

    Beautiful painting of Queen Victoria presenting him a Bible:

    http://www.arthermitage.org/Thomas-Jones-Barker/Queen-Victoria-Giving-the-Bible-to-an-African-Chief.html

    Criticizing oneself and humbling oneself to obedience to God is the greatest privilege.

  • Joe

    sg wrote: “Joe, it is the liberals who make a federal case of everything and want to force everyone to be the same.”

    Really? Tell that Tony Perkins, James Dobbsin et al. Who keep pushing for the enactment of socially conservative policies at the federal level. This is what keeps the libertarians out of the GOP and if you haven’t noticed when the GOP loses the libertarians they have to replace them Olympia Snow types. The lack of an understanding of federalism is what killed the Reagan coalition and unless the GOP remembers it in the future it will keep the party just ever so slightly right of center, which is to say – pro big government but of course thats only for those really serious social issues that the GOPers support.

  • Joe

    sg wrote: “Joe, it is the liberals who make a federal case of everything and want to force everyone to be the same.”

    Really? Tell that Tony Perkins, James Dobbsin et al. Who keep pushing for the enactment of socially conservative policies at the federal level. This is what keeps the libertarians out of the GOP and if you haven’t noticed when the GOP loses the libertarians they have to replace them Olympia Snow types. The lack of an understanding of federalism is what killed the Reagan coalition and unless the GOP remembers it in the future it will keep the party just ever so slightly right of center, which is to say – pro big government but of course thats only for those really serious social issues that the GOPers support.

  • DonS

    I am not a Tea Partier and have never attended a Tea Party rally, though I am, of course, sympathetic to their message of returning to the Constitutional concept of a limited federal government. Any rallies I have seen on video or TV have been utterly peaceful — signs, shouting, horns blowing — no different than you see at any other political protest rally and within the greatest American traditions of protest. I’m sure there will be the occasional nut who will involve themselves in the protest, just as you will find in any other movement (e.g. Earth First members who have been known to spike trees in an effort to terrorize loggers from doing their job for fear of injury, who have bombed buildings and equipment, etc.). No one tars the whole environmental movement based on these idiots, not should the mainstream Tea Party movement be tarred by the actions of a few marginal morons. It is reported, as well, that unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests deliberately, to exhibit outrageous signs and sentiments for the purpose of discrediting the legitimate protesting that is going on. Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not, but it should be taken into account before one loudly pulls the toxic “racist” card. I highly doubt that guns are brought to the average Tea Party rally, and they certainly weren’t brought to any in D.C., because the protesters would have been immediately arrested. The bottom line is that many, many people are upset with the direction of our government, and denying that by focusing on the idiots, rather than engaging in legitimate debate, will have serious political repercussions. The people are fed up, and will not be ignored or marginalized or dismissed as “white racists”.

    I agree that the Tea Party should not align with a particular political party, nor should it found a third party. Obviously, the current Democratic party has little interest in promoting the concept of limited government, so it is unlikely that many Tea Partiers will be able to vote Democratic, but it would be a mistake to become captive to the only somewhat less offensive Republican party. Joe is right that Republicans need to learn that a true limited federal government will return ALL non-Constitutional responsibilities to the states, not merely those that conservatives don’t like.

  • DonS

    I am not a Tea Partier and have never attended a Tea Party rally, though I am, of course, sympathetic to their message of returning to the Constitutional concept of a limited federal government. Any rallies I have seen on video or TV have been utterly peaceful — signs, shouting, horns blowing — no different than you see at any other political protest rally and within the greatest American traditions of protest. I’m sure there will be the occasional nut who will involve themselves in the protest, just as you will find in any other movement (e.g. Earth First members who have been known to spike trees in an effort to terrorize loggers from doing their job for fear of injury, who have bombed buildings and equipment, etc.). No one tars the whole environmental movement based on these idiots, not should the mainstream Tea Party movement be tarred by the actions of a few marginal morons. It is reported, as well, that unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests deliberately, to exhibit outrageous signs and sentiments for the purpose of discrediting the legitimate protesting that is going on. Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not, but it should be taken into account before one loudly pulls the toxic “racist” card. I highly doubt that guns are brought to the average Tea Party rally, and they certainly weren’t brought to any in D.C., because the protesters would have been immediately arrested. The bottom line is that many, many people are upset with the direction of our government, and denying that by focusing on the idiots, rather than engaging in legitimate debate, will have serious political repercussions. The people are fed up, and will not be ignored or marginalized or dismissed as “white racists”.

    I agree that the Tea Party should not align with a particular political party, nor should it found a third party. Obviously, the current Democratic party has little interest in promoting the concept of limited government, so it is unlikely that many Tea Partiers will be able to vote Democratic, but it would be a mistake to become captive to the only somewhat less offensive Republican party. Joe is right that Republicans need to learn that a true limited federal government will return ALL non-Constitutional responsibilities to the states, not merely those that conservatives don’t like.

  • sg

    “Tell that Tony Perkins, James Dobbsin et al. Who keep pushing for the enactment of socially conservative policies at the federal level.”

    I don’t follow those people or their policies. Could you give an example of what you mean. As for getting out of the policies that states should control, I would be for eliminating the Dept. of Education, for starters. It serves no purpose and costs a ton of money. States should be able to do whatever they want with education without federal intervention or standards. Then liberals and conservatives could work it out on state and local school boards.
    The reason social conservatives are railing against national policies is that they want to eliminate national policies enacted by liberals. They are happier with no national policy on most social issues. That way they can choose to live where the rules fit them. They can vote with their feet.

  • sg

    “Tell that Tony Perkins, James Dobbsin et al. Who keep pushing for the enactment of socially conservative policies at the federal level.”

    I don’t follow those people or their policies. Could you give an example of what you mean. As for getting out of the policies that states should control, I would be for eliminating the Dept. of Education, for starters. It serves no purpose and costs a ton of money. States should be able to do whatever they want with education without federal intervention or standards. Then liberals and conservatives could work it out on state and local school boards.
    The reason social conservatives are railing against national policies is that they want to eliminate national policies enacted by liberals. They are happier with no national policy on most social issues. That way they can choose to live where the rules fit them. They can vote with their feet.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Phil Spomer

    The Tea Party should operate like the NRA which has been quite successful. It should avoid party affiliation. Keep its cause narrow. (small inexpensive government.) and influence elections by organizing it’s members into a voting/lobbying block.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Phil Spomer

    The Tea Party should operate like the NRA which has been quite successful. It should avoid party affiliation. Keep its cause narrow. (small inexpensive government.) and influence elections by organizing it’s members into a voting/lobbying block.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@20), “No one tars the whole environmental movement based on [Earth First].” Of course not. Why, I can’t think of any right-wingers ever doing anything like that. I mean, that would be even more ridiculous than tarring the entire environmental movement based on, oh, the actions of just one man … say, I don’t know, Al Gore. But no one would do that! Because right-wingers are fair and really hate tarring entire movements because of just a few. They just hate it.

    Anyhow, I really appreciate how, in the middle of your argument for why we shouldn’t smear other groups, you included this entirely unfounded little bon mot: “It is reported, as well, that unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests deliberately, to exhibit outrageous signs and sentiments for the purpose of discrediting the legitimate protesting that is going on.” Hey, as long as it was “reported,” I see no reason for you to question such a report! (By the way, where was that reported?) Because you know how unions and liberal activists can be, right?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@20), “No one tars the whole environmental movement based on [Earth First].” Of course not. Why, I can’t think of any right-wingers ever doing anything like that. I mean, that would be even more ridiculous than tarring the entire environmental movement based on, oh, the actions of just one man … say, I don’t know, Al Gore. But no one would do that! Because right-wingers are fair and really hate tarring entire movements because of just a few. They just hate it.

    Anyhow, I really appreciate how, in the middle of your argument for why we shouldn’t smear other groups, you included this entirely unfounded little bon mot: “It is reported, as well, that unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests deliberately, to exhibit outrageous signs and sentiments for the purpose of discrediting the legitimate protesting that is going on.” Hey, as long as it was “reported,” I see no reason for you to question such a report! (By the way, where was that reported?) Because you know how unions and liberal activists can be, right?

  • DonS

    tODD @ 23: Wow, you must have had a tough weekend, judging from the level of vitriol and sarcasm in your post. I didn’t intend my comments to elicit that strong of a response. However, I can’t really figure out what you are saying here. Are you saying that since the environmental movement is tarred by its association with Earth First and Al Gore, in your opinion, then it is perfectly fine to similarly tar the Tea Party movement? In other words, two wrongs DO make a right? Or are you lamenting that both movements are tarred unjustly, and hoping for a better day when politics is cleaner and issues are discussed on the merits rather than through innuendo and smear?

    If the latter, then I’m with you, brother.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 23: Wow, you must have had a tough weekend, judging from the level of vitriol and sarcasm in your post. I didn’t intend my comments to elicit that strong of a response. However, I can’t really figure out what you are saying here. Are you saying that since the environmental movement is tarred by its association with Earth First and Al Gore, in your opinion, then it is perfectly fine to similarly tar the Tea Party movement? In other words, two wrongs DO make a right? Or are you lamenting that both movements are tarred unjustly, and hoping for a better day when politics is cleaner and issues are discussed on the merits rather than through innuendo and smear?

    If the latter, then I’m with you, brother.

  • Dan Kempin

    tODD, #23,

    [closing my pocket watch after a quick glance] Yup. Right on time!

    Thanks for keeping us honest. Don’s point still stands, but the reflection of the mirror is always useful.

    It is to me, at least.

  • Dan Kempin

    tODD, #23,

    [closing my pocket watch after a quick glance] Yup. Right on time!

    Thanks for keeping us honest. Don’s point still stands, but the reflection of the mirror is always useful.

    It is to me, at least.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@24), I’m having a hard time believing you didn’t get my point, but I’ll explain, anyhow. You said (@20), referring to Earth First members, “No one tars the whole environmental movement based on these idiots.” Which is quite plainly untrue. Now, what I think you meant was that you don’t believe all environmentalists are to be judged by the actions of Earth Firsters (or similar nuts; by the way, I haven’t heard anything about Earth First in over a decade, personally). And that’s great. Of course, a quick perusal of your past comments on this blog regarding Al Gore paint a less clear picture, but I’ll trust that you don’t think he speaks for all environmentalists, either.

    I’m disappointed you didn’t see fit to comment on your so-far baseless libel against “unions and other liberal activists”. Because I think you’re better than to spread rumors like that.

    Dan (@25), it’s what I do.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@24), I’m having a hard time believing you didn’t get my point, but I’ll explain, anyhow. You said (@20), referring to Earth First members, “No one tars the whole environmental movement based on these idiots.” Which is quite plainly untrue. Now, what I think you meant was that you don’t believe all environmentalists are to be judged by the actions of Earth Firsters (or similar nuts; by the way, I haven’t heard anything about Earth First in over a decade, personally). And that’s great. Of course, a quick perusal of your past comments on this blog regarding Al Gore paint a less clear picture, but I’ll trust that you don’t think he speaks for all environmentalists, either.

    I’m disappointed you didn’t see fit to comment on your so-far baseless libel against “unions and other liberal activists”. Because I think you’re better than to spread rumors like that.

    Dan (@25), it’s what I do.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 26: Au contraire, not only did I get your point, I conceded it as true, at least for the purpose of my response. Apparently, however, you did not get my point.

    Here it is again: Even if what you said @ post 23 is true, it is not clear to me what you are saying. Are you saying that since the environmental movement is tarred by its association with Earth First and Al Gore, in your opinion, then it is perfectly fine to similarly tar the Tea Party movement? In other words, two wrongs DO make a right? Or are you lamenting that both movements are tarred unjustly, and hoping for a better day when politics is cleaner and issues are discussed on the merits rather than through innuendo and smear?

    If the latter, then I’m with you, brother.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 26: Au contraire, not only did I get your point, I conceded it as true, at least for the purpose of my response. Apparently, however, you did not get my point.

    Here it is again: Even if what you said @ post 23 is true, it is not clear to me what you are saying. Are you saying that since the environmental movement is tarred by its association with Earth First and Al Gore, in your opinion, then it is perfectly fine to similarly tar the Tea Party movement? In other words, two wrongs DO make a right? Or are you lamenting that both movements are tarred unjustly, and hoping for a better day when politics is cleaner and issues are discussed on the merits rather than through innuendo and smear?

    If the latter, then I’m with you, brother.

  • DonS

    tODD: Once you’ve responded to my question @ 24, repeated @ 27, I will address your other questions. I just need to know where you are going with your criticism and whether you are excusing the smear of the Tea Partiers on the basis of your belief that environmentalists and labor unions and liberals have also been smeared.

  • DonS

    tODD: Once you’ve responded to my question @ 24, repeated @ 27, I will address your other questions. I just need to know where you are going with your criticism and whether you are excusing the smear of the Tea Partiers on the basis of your belief that environmentalists and labor unions and liberals have also been smeared.

  • LAJ

    The tea partiers are being painted as un-American. A letter to the editor in our paper called us “asses.” Apparently, the only protesting that’s acceptable to the majority of the press is liberal, as in the protests to Arizona’s attempt to protect it’s citizens from the illegal immigrants, or in the protests to the Vietnam war. Both of which were and are far more violent than anything that has been seen at any tea party protest. The left would like you to fear these protesters because they “might” have an extremist who “might” resort to violence.

  • LAJ

    The tea partiers are being painted as un-American. A letter to the editor in our paper called us “asses.” Apparently, the only protesting that’s acceptable to the majority of the press is liberal, as in the protests to Arizona’s attempt to protect it’s citizens from the illegal immigrants, or in the protests to the Vietnam war. Both of which were and are far more violent than anything that has been seen at any tea party protest. The left would like you to fear these protesters because they “might” have an extremist who “might” resort to violence.

  • DonS

    LAJ, you make an excellent point regarding the Arizona protests this weekend. Funny how the media never impugned their motives, or the “*holes” among them, and gleefully reported each and every one, along with as optimistic a count as they could muster.

  • DonS

    LAJ, you make an excellent point regarding the Arizona protests this weekend. Funny how the media never impugned their motives, or the “*holes” among them, and gleefully reported each and every one, along with as optimistic a count as they could muster.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don(@31 … our numbering went all wonky once some comments that mentioned “soci@lism” got marked as not spam), if I had a thinner skin (NB: I don’t; you probably figured that out), I’d be insulted that you have to ask. But, and I’m rolling my eyes having to type this: No, I do not believe two wrongs make a right. I do not think that any group should be held responsible for the actions of a few who are in some way affiliated with the larger group. That said, I do not think this means that there can be no discussion or criticism of these smaller few. It’s just wrong to assume that the larger group approves of their actions, unless some evidence to this end can be given. Also, I don’t know what “the smear of the Tea Partiers” is that you refer to. Is it what Veith said about “violent and seditious rhetoric”?

    Now I don’t know why you wanted to hear that before you addressed your baseless libel. But I seriously hope you’ll be doing that soon.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don(@31 … our numbering went all wonky once some comments that mentioned “soci@lism” got marked as not spam), if I had a thinner skin (NB: I don’t; you probably figured that out), I’d be insulted that you have to ask. But, and I’m rolling my eyes having to type this: No, I do not believe two wrongs make a right. I do not think that any group should be held responsible for the actions of a few who are in some way affiliated with the larger group. That said, I do not think this means that there can be no discussion or criticism of these smaller few. It’s just wrong to assume that the larger group approves of their actions, unless some evidence to this end can be given. Also, I don’t know what “the smear of the Tea Partiers” is that you refer to. Is it what Veith said about “violent and seditious rhetoric”?

    Now I don’t know why you wanted to hear that before you addressed your baseless libel. But I seriously hope you’ll be doing that soon.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 34 (or whatever) — I guess three or so comments have been introduced into the thread after undergoing an unspecified cleansing operation? :-)

    Good. Then I think we agree that Tim Wise, as quoted by Andrew, is out of line. The Tea Party movement seems to be a legitimate effort on the part of a large number of citizens to express an important point of view. Agree or disagree with that point of view, they should be heard and respected, and not labeled, as a group, as being “racists” or inciting violence, or any of the other such nonsense which seems to pass for discourse in this day and age. We need to engage ideas in this country, not merely level ridiculous and unfounded charges at one another.

    That being said, I agree with you that the environmental movement should not be tarred by the fact that there are a radical few which act in its name, such as Earth First. Al Gore is a little bit of a different case, because he claims the mantle of spokesman for the movement, just as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton claim to be spokesman for civil rights advocates. It is important for other environmentalists and civil rights advocates to forcefully distance themselves from these would-be spokesmen, as you do. No would-be spokespeople for the Tea Party movement, which is a majority female movement, as I understand it, have advocated violence or promoted racism in any way, that I have observed. Of course, none of us should assume that these would-be spokemen speak for everyone in their movement, regardless.

    “Now I don’t know why you wanted to hear that before you addressed your baseless libel” — whom, exactly, did I libel? Here is my statement, in its entirety: “It is reported, as well, that unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests deliberately, to exhibit outrageous signs and sentiments for the purpose of discrediting the legitimate protesting that is going on. Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not, but it should be taken into account before one loudly pulls the toxic ‘racist’ card.”

    I’m also surprised, given your prodigious Googling skills, that you challenged this statement and accused me of libel. Here is just one AP article supporting my statement http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100412/ap_on_go_ot/us_tea_party_crashers

    Note also that the article links to the website crashtheteapartydotorg.

    Hopefully, this adequately addresses your concerns.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 34 (or whatever) — I guess three or so comments have been introduced into the thread after undergoing an unspecified cleansing operation? :-)

    Good. Then I think we agree that Tim Wise, as quoted by Andrew, is out of line. The Tea Party movement seems to be a legitimate effort on the part of a large number of citizens to express an important point of view. Agree or disagree with that point of view, they should be heard and respected, and not labeled, as a group, as being “racists” or inciting violence, or any of the other such nonsense which seems to pass for discourse in this day and age. We need to engage ideas in this country, not merely level ridiculous and unfounded charges at one another.

    That being said, I agree with you that the environmental movement should not be tarred by the fact that there are a radical few which act in its name, such as Earth First. Al Gore is a little bit of a different case, because he claims the mantle of spokesman for the movement, just as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton claim to be spokesman for civil rights advocates. It is important for other environmentalists and civil rights advocates to forcefully distance themselves from these would-be spokesmen, as you do. No would-be spokespeople for the Tea Party movement, which is a majority female movement, as I understand it, have advocated violence or promoted racism in any way, that I have observed. Of course, none of us should assume that these would-be spokemen speak for everyone in their movement, regardless.

    “Now I don’t know why you wanted to hear that before you addressed your baseless libel” — whom, exactly, did I libel? Here is my statement, in its entirety: “It is reported, as well, that unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests deliberately, to exhibit outrageous signs and sentiments for the purpose of discrediting the legitimate protesting that is going on. Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not, but it should be taken into account before one loudly pulls the toxic ‘racist’ card.”

    I’m also surprised, given your prodigious Googling skills, that you challenged this statement and accused me of libel. Here is just one AP article supporting my statement http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100412/ap_on_go_ot/us_tea_party_crashers

    Note also that the article links to the website crashtheteapartydotorg.

    Hopefully, this adequately addresses your concerns.

  • John C

    sg@ 24
    Surely education is the exception, sg. You wouldn’t want curriculm design to be the responsibility of state party hacks as it is in Texas.
    http://www.tfninsider.org
    Your children deserve better than this.

  • John C

    sg@ 24
    Surely education is the exception, sg. You wouldn’t want curriculm design to be the responsibility of state party hacks as it is in Texas.
    http://www.tfninsider.org
    Your children deserve better than this.

  • Trey

    @ John C #36
    Talk about distorting an issue. The site you linked does that as does the liberal media. For instance, Texas school board removed Thomas Jefferson from the world political leader curriculum. Liberals tell it this way they removed Thomas Jefferson from the history curriculum and they are teaching kids religion because they include Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin. The facts are that Jefferson was removed from the world history on political leaders because he derived his ideas from John Locke, John Calvin and Thomas Aquinas. I guess only a person who studied history would know this! Furthermore, Calvin and Aquinas while believing Christians were also involved in politics mainly natural law. This is the basis for all laws because it emanates from the Creator, not supermen who construct it. Texas is doing the United States and future generations a favor by teaching them classical education and not this liberal bunk.

    @ everyone else
    Remember an exception doesn’t prove a rule. Some liberals and conservatives make these broad generalizations, which are fallacious. One needs to examine the argument, issue, event in its context. With that said, I have seen a lot of smearing by the liberal media about the Tea Parties that is out of context and flat out noxious; fear mongering at its best.

  • Trey

    @ John C #36
    Talk about distorting an issue. The site you linked does that as does the liberal media. For instance, Texas school board removed Thomas Jefferson from the world political leader curriculum. Liberals tell it this way they removed Thomas Jefferson from the history curriculum and they are teaching kids religion because they include Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin. The facts are that Jefferson was removed from the world history on political leaders because he derived his ideas from John Locke, John Calvin and Thomas Aquinas. I guess only a person who studied history would know this! Furthermore, Calvin and Aquinas while believing Christians were also involved in politics mainly natural law. This is the basis for all laws because it emanates from the Creator, not supermen who construct it. Texas is doing the United States and future generations a favor by teaching them classical education and not this liberal bunk.

    @ everyone else
    Remember an exception doesn’t prove a rule. Some liberals and conservatives make these broad generalizations, which are fallacious. One needs to examine the argument, issue, event in its context. With that said, I have seen a lot of smearing by the liberal media about the Tea Parties that is out of context and flat out noxious; fear mongering at its best.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@35), you said that “Al Gore is a little bit of a different case, because he claims the mantle of spokesman for the movement.” Did he? How, exactly, did he claim this?

    As for your AP article, thanks for that. I hadn’t heard of Crash the Tea Party until now (which is funny, since its founder is apparently from Portland). Part of the reason my Google-fu failed was that you claimed that “unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests”, but your article, you’ll notice says nothing about unions. I still don’t know why you claimed that — care to point to a link to back you up? Also, CrashTheTeaParty-dot-org isn’t there anymore, nor can I find any cached or archived versions anywhere.

    “No would-be spokespeople for the Tea Party movement, which is a majority female movement, as I understand it, have advocated violence or promoted racism in any way, that I have observed.” Yeah, on that one, you definitely should have looked around. It’s easy to prove you wrong.

    Mark Williams, Tea Party Express chairman, says all kinds of ridiculous things (without, it would seem, the aid of unions) on his blog. He called Obama “a man who considers our flag to be trash – the former Barry Soetoro, Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug turned anointed.”[1] He also had this rather choice quote (emphasis mine):

    B. Hussein Obama took power on the same kinds of hateful ideology and is engaging in nothing different than did mass murders like Stalin and Pol Pot. The only thing missing is the forced death marches and gulags… oh, but wait, Obama’s death panels and union provided goon squads will take care of that. His goal is to feed the tapeworm until it overwhelms the host (you and me) and becomes powerful enough to keep him and his flying monkeys in power.

    If we (the Tea Party Movement and American People) fail in our de-worming this will not end well. It never has before and it will not now. It would serve the domestic enemies in control well to remember even recent history and the fact that slaves eventually revolt and heads quite literally wind up on platters.[2]

    I look forward to your repudiating these comments of his. As I look forward to every tea party member, according to your rules, distancing themselves from these comments. For what it’s worth, I found some of these comments from just such a distancing[3], though again, according to your rules, all the tea party people need to do this.

    [1]marktalk.com/blog/?p=1595
    [2]marktalk.com/blog/?p=9337
    [3]resistnet.com/group/floridastatepatriots/forum/topics/tea-party-patriots-statement-1

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@35), you said that “Al Gore is a little bit of a different case, because he claims the mantle of spokesman for the movement.” Did he? How, exactly, did he claim this?

    As for your AP article, thanks for that. I hadn’t heard of Crash the Tea Party until now (which is funny, since its founder is apparently from Portland). Part of the reason my Google-fu failed was that you claimed that “unions and other liberal activists have infiltrated these protests”, but your article, you’ll notice says nothing about unions. I still don’t know why you claimed that — care to point to a link to back you up? Also, CrashTheTeaParty-dot-org isn’t there anymore, nor can I find any cached or archived versions anywhere.

    “No would-be spokespeople for the Tea Party movement, which is a majority female movement, as I understand it, have advocated violence or promoted racism in any way, that I have observed.” Yeah, on that one, you definitely should have looked around. It’s easy to prove you wrong.

    Mark Williams, Tea Party Express chairman, says all kinds of ridiculous things (without, it would seem, the aid of unions) on his blog. He called Obama “a man who considers our flag to be trash – the former Barry Soetoro, Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug turned anointed.”[1] He also had this rather choice quote (emphasis mine):

    B. Hussein Obama took power on the same kinds of hateful ideology and is engaging in nothing different than did mass murders like Stalin and Pol Pot. The only thing missing is the forced death marches and gulags… oh, but wait, Obama’s death panels and union provided goon squads will take care of that. His goal is to feed the tapeworm until it overwhelms the host (you and me) and becomes powerful enough to keep him and his flying monkeys in power.

    If we (the Tea Party Movement and American People) fail in our de-worming this will not end well. It never has before and it will not now. It would serve the domestic enemies in control well to remember even recent history and the fact that slaves eventually revolt and heads quite literally wind up on platters.[2]

    I look forward to your repudiating these comments of his. As I look forward to every tea party member, according to your rules, distancing themselves from these comments. For what it’s worth, I found some of these comments from just such a distancing[3], though again, according to your rules, all the tea party people need to do this.

    [1]marktalk.com/blog/?p=1595
    [2]marktalk.com/blog/?p=9337
    [3]resistnet.com/group/floridastatepatriots/forum/topics/tea-party-patriots-statement-1

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    I “ditto” John #4-what violent and seditious rhetoric has come from the “Tea Party” movement!?!!!! I have heard none….
    The only violent rhetoric I have heard is from the regime now in power-”…if they bring a knife-we’ll bring a gun…” ==bho-and-Gibbs-.”….boot on their neck..” or was that bho too!?
    C-CS

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    I “ditto” John #4-what violent and seditious rhetoric has come from the “Tea Party” movement!?!!!! I have heard none….
    The only violent rhetoric I have heard is from the regime now in power-”…if they bring a knife-we’ll bring a gun…” ==bho-and-Gibbs-.”….boot on their neck..” or was that bho too!?
    C-CS

  • DonS

    tODD @ 38: “I look forward to your repudiating these comments of his” — Since I do not claim an association with the Tea Party, I’m not sure why you are insisting that I repudiate Mr. Williams’ comments, any more than you should repudiate them yourself. However, other genuine Tea Party organizers have repudiated him, as you can see, for example, in the following link:

    http://washingtonindependent.com/62054/tea-party-patriots-vs-tea-party-express

    Basically, the man appears to be a talk show host who glommed onto the movement with his PAC which he named Tea Party Express.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 38: “I look forward to your repudiating these comments of his” — Since I do not claim an association with the Tea Party, I’m not sure why you are insisting that I repudiate Mr. Williams’ comments, any more than you should repudiate them yourself. However, other genuine Tea Party organizers have repudiated him, as you can see, for example, in the following link:

    http://washingtonindependent.com/62054/tea-party-patriots-vs-tea-party-express

    Basically, the man appears to be a talk show host who glommed onto the movement with his PAC which he named Tea Party Express.

  • Joe

    Williams is a great example of someone trying to hi-jack the movement. He’s an idiot and people would do well to eschew the “Tea Party Express” in favor of your local Tea Party org. This movement doesn’t really need a national org. to oversee it. Its been pretty organic and local – it should stay that way.

  • Joe

    Williams is a great example of someone trying to hi-jack the movement. He’s an idiot and people would do well to eschew the “Tea Party Express” in favor of your local Tea Party org. This movement doesn’t really need a national org. to oversee it. Its been pretty organic and local – it should stay that way.

  • kerner

    My advice to the Tea Partiers is to identify their core principles (which I hope have to do with small government, individual liberty and free market economics) and don’t c0mpromise them for the first cheap short term political gain that comes along.

    I said in an earlier thread that people rarely give their freedom away. Rather, they trade it for something they think is more important at the moment. Statists know this, so they serve up quite the buffet of items that will cost us our freedom. And there are always those who will make the deal.

    The current favorite entree for the left is the environment. The amount of freedom the left is willing to give up to “save the planet” is staggering. But we’re not really talking about them here.

    For conservatives (and I assume the tea partiers fall into that broad category) the two big temptations are fear of terrorism and illegal immigration. Last week I thought I heard Glen Beck talking about the patriot act, saying that he supported it back in the early 2000′s, but he wanted it to have a sunset date; now he was wondering if he was wrong to have supported it at all.

    I hope I heard Mr. Beck correctly. When conservatives, supposedly freeddom loving people, are willing to give the government unprecedented power to spy on Americans without a warrant they risk the freedoms they purport to protect. Targeting terrorists does not necessarilly make giving extraordinary power to the governmenty a good idea. Sooner or later that power will be used on Americans.

    Another of my pet peaves is the proposed new biometric tamper proof social security card. What worries me is that both the “enforcement first” croowd AND the “comprehensive reform” crowd are including this card in their proposals. This card amounts to a federal work permit, without which no one can get a job. It will be a federal crime (maybe a federal felony) for any employer to hire you unless the government has authorized you to work in the United States. All people, including citizens, will have to have this work permit.

    If you put that scenario to most tea partiers, I would bet they would angrily reject it. But if you put it to them in the context of cracking down on illegal aliens, I would bet that a lot of them would hand over that kind of power to the federal government without batting an eye.

    It should never, not ever, be a crime to work or to hire an adult to do work. I know I may be becoming needlessly apocalyptic about this myself, but every time we give the government more power to decide who can or can not engage in basic economic activities like work or business we take a step closer to Revelation 13: 16-17. As we become more and more willing to do this, I shudder with each step we take.

  • kerner

    My advice to the Tea Partiers is to identify their core principles (which I hope have to do with small government, individual liberty and free market economics) and don’t c0mpromise them for the first cheap short term political gain that comes along.

    I said in an earlier thread that people rarely give their freedom away. Rather, they trade it for something they think is more important at the moment. Statists know this, so they serve up quite the buffet of items that will cost us our freedom. And there are always those who will make the deal.

    The current favorite entree for the left is the environment. The amount of freedom the left is willing to give up to “save the planet” is staggering. But we’re not really talking about them here.

    For conservatives (and I assume the tea partiers fall into that broad category) the two big temptations are fear of terrorism and illegal immigration. Last week I thought I heard Glen Beck talking about the patriot act, saying that he supported it back in the early 2000′s, but he wanted it to have a sunset date; now he was wondering if he was wrong to have supported it at all.

    I hope I heard Mr. Beck correctly. When conservatives, supposedly freeddom loving people, are willing to give the government unprecedented power to spy on Americans without a warrant they risk the freedoms they purport to protect. Targeting terrorists does not necessarilly make giving extraordinary power to the governmenty a good idea. Sooner or later that power will be used on Americans.

    Another of my pet peaves is the proposed new biometric tamper proof social security card. What worries me is that both the “enforcement first” croowd AND the “comprehensive reform” crowd are including this card in their proposals. This card amounts to a federal work permit, without which no one can get a job. It will be a federal crime (maybe a federal felony) for any employer to hire you unless the government has authorized you to work in the United States. All people, including citizens, will have to have this work permit.

    If you put that scenario to most tea partiers, I would bet they would angrily reject it. But if you put it to them in the context of cracking down on illegal aliens, I would bet that a lot of them would hand over that kind of power to the federal government without batting an eye.

    It should never, not ever, be a crime to work or to hire an adult to do work. I know I may be becoming needlessly apocalyptic about this myself, but every time we give the government more power to decide who can or can not engage in basic economic activities like work or business we take a step closer to Revelation 13: 16-17. As we become more and more willing to do this, I shudder with each step we take.

  • Andrew

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/05/embracing_the_bag.php?ref=fpblg

    “‘[T]ea bagger’ was originally the chosen name of the Tea Partiers themselves. It’s also true of course that long after many Tea Partiers decided they could probably use a better name for themselves that many anti-Tea Partiers continued to use the word as a form of mockery or derision.

    “There’s even an intra-Tea Party debate over whether they should simply embrace the ‘tea bagger’ label as a form of group solidarity and pride, much as other marginalized or groups that imagine they’re marginalized have embraced labels of derision in the past (Christian, Puritan, etc.)”

  • Andrew

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/05/embracing_the_bag.php?ref=fpblg

    “‘[T]ea bagger’ was originally the chosen name of the Tea Partiers themselves. It’s also true of course that long after many Tea Partiers decided they could probably use a better name for themselves that many anti-Tea Partiers continued to use the word as a form of mockery or derision.

    “There’s even an intra-Tea Party debate over whether they should simply embrace the ‘tea bagger’ label as a form of group solidarity and pride, much as other marginalized or groups that imagine they’re marginalized have embraced labels of derision in the past (Christian, Puritan, etc.)”

  • sg

    John C,

    “Surely education is the exception, sg. You wouldn’t want curriculm design to be the responsibility of state party hacks as it is in Texas.
    http://www.tfninsider.org
    Your children deserve better than this.”

    My kids are getting a private Christian education.

    Whether or not you agree with the Texas Board of Education, they were elected by the people of Texas. The US Dept of Ed. is unelected and unaccountable, not to mention horribly expensive. Also, the US Dept of Ed is legally constrained from mandating any curriculum. So, your point is essentially moot. Education is a function of the states which is why a national dept serves no real purpose.

    People are fleeing public ed. Consider US census data:

    From the 2000 census report:

    “How many students attend private schools?
    In April 2000, 5.2 million first- through-twelfth graders attended private schools, or 10.4 percent of students in those grades. Although the proportion of students in private school increased only modestly from the 1990 level (9.8 percent), the number of students in these schools soared, from 4.2 million to 5.2 million, a 24 percent increase.”

    http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-26.pdf

    The latest estimate of students in private/homeschool is even higher.

    “12%
    Projected percentage of elementary and high school students enrolled in private schools this fall.”

    http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/007108.html

  • sg

    John C,

    “Surely education is the exception, sg. You wouldn’t want curriculm design to be the responsibility of state party hacks as it is in Texas.
    http://www.tfninsider.org
    Your children deserve better than this.”

    My kids are getting a private Christian education.

    Whether or not you agree with the Texas Board of Education, they were elected by the people of Texas. The US Dept of Ed. is unelected and unaccountable, not to mention horribly expensive. Also, the US Dept of Ed is legally constrained from mandating any curriculum. So, your point is essentially moot. Education is a function of the states which is why a national dept serves no real purpose.

    People are fleeing public ed. Consider US census data:

    From the 2000 census report:

    “How many students attend private schools?
    In April 2000, 5.2 million first- through-twelfth graders attended private schools, or 10.4 percent of students in those grades. Although the proportion of students in private school increased only modestly from the 1990 level (9.8 percent), the number of students in these schools soared, from 4.2 million to 5.2 million, a 24 percent increase.”

    http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-26.pdf

    The latest estimate of students in private/homeschool is even higher.

    “12%
    Projected percentage of elementary and high school students enrolled in private schools this fall.”

    http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/007108.html

  • sg

    John C,

    “Surely education is the exception, sg. You wouldn’t want curriculm design to be the responsibility of state party hacks as it is in Texas.”

    He, he.

    Far from the exception, education is the prime target.

    Parents of students elected the Texas Board of Education.

  • sg

    John C,

    “Surely education is the exception, sg. You wouldn’t want curriculm design to be the responsibility of state party hacks as it is in Texas.”

    He, he.

    Far from the exception, education is the prime target.

    Parents of students elected the Texas Board of Education.

  • DonS

    Andrew @ 43: “It’s also true of course that long after many Tea Partiers decided they could probably use a better name for themselves that many anti-Tea Partiers continued to use the word as a form of mockery or derision.”

    And you would fall into this camp, I would presume?

    Genuine constructive discourse works a lot better when there is less mockery or derision, by both sides, and more serious discussion of the issues.

  • DonS

    Andrew @ 43: “It’s also true of course that long after many Tea Partiers decided they could probably use a better name for themselves that many anti-Tea Partiers continued to use the word as a form of mockery or derision.”

    And you would fall into this camp, I would presume?

    Genuine constructive discourse works a lot better when there is less mockery or derision, by both sides, and more serious discussion of the issues.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 42: As usual, your points are well taken, and consistent with your (correct) point of view that our federal government was designed by our founders to be limited in scope. The government is to serve the citizens and the states, not vice-versa. But, repeatedly, we as Americans have chosen security over liberty, in the vain hope that somehow enough government largesse and regulation will create utopia on earth. So far, that’s not working out so well, but the liberals among us, rather than conceding the point, are doubling down and giving away pretty much the rest of our economic liberty and property rights. In the meantime, law and order conservatives are frequently actively giving away our freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Of course, with the Internal Revenue Service, these freedom losses intersect.

    As we recently discussed on another thread, I agree with you that, under no circumstances, should an American citizen be required to carry a national identity card of any type. No such identification should be required to obtain employment or for any other reason. State-issued photo I.D.’s should suffice for establishing that you are who you say you are. I don’t agree with you that this right should extend to non-citizen aliens. In the case of aliens, the federal government does have a responsibility to ensure the security of the nation, and to ensure that resident aliens are engaged in the activities that their visa permits. The government also has a responsibility to prevent visa overstays. Vigilance in this kind of security would have helped to prevent the 9/11 disaster. Funny how the federal government does so much it shouldn’t be doing, but, because of incompetence and/or inappropriate political pressure, it does not enforce the laws and fulfill the responsibilities for which it is actually constitutionally empowered.

    Additionally, FICA and Medicare, while constitutionally dubious programs, are in place and unlikely to be repealed anytime soon. Since they exist, and are funded primarily through payroll taxes, the government has a responsibility to ensure that employees are correctly identified and legally entitled to participate in these programs.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 42: As usual, your points are well taken, and consistent with your (correct) point of view that our federal government was designed by our founders to be limited in scope. The government is to serve the citizens and the states, not vice-versa. But, repeatedly, we as Americans have chosen security over liberty, in the vain hope that somehow enough government largesse and regulation will create utopia on earth. So far, that’s not working out so well, but the liberals among us, rather than conceding the point, are doubling down and giving away pretty much the rest of our economic liberty and property rights. In the meantime, law and order conservatives are frequently actively giving away our freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Of course, with the Internal Revenue Service, these freedom losses intersect.

    As we recently discussed on another thread, I agree with you that, under no circumstances, should an American citizen be required to carry a national identity card of any type. No such identification should be required to obtain employment or for any other reason. State-issued photo I.D.’s should suffice for establishing that you are who you say you are. I don’t agree with you that this right should extend to non-citizen aliens. In the case of aliens, the federal government does have a responsibility to ensure the security of the nation, and to ensure that resident aliens are engaged in the activities that their visa permits. The government also has a responsibility to prevent visa overstays. Vigilance in this kind of security would have helped to prevent the 9/11 disaster. Funny how the federal government does so much it shouldn’t be doing, but, because of incompetence and/or inappropriate political pressure, it does not enforce the laws and fulfill the responsibilities for which it is actually constitutionally empowered.

    Additionally, FICA and Medicare, while constitutionally dubious programs, are in place and unlikely to be repealed anytime soon. Since they exist, and are funded primarily through payroll taxes, the government has a responsibility to ensure that employees are correctly identified and legally entitled to participate in these programs.

  • Andrew

    It’s asking too much to not mock the tea bag–, uh, tea “partiers.” It’s that same 20% of know-nothing white America that’s always been obsessed with conspiracies, blacks, communists under the bed, foreigners, flouride in the water, etc.

  • Andrew

    It’s asking too much to not mock the tea bag–, uh, tea “partiers.” It’s that same 20% of know-nothing white America that’s always been obsessed with conspiracies, blacks, communists under the bed, foreigners, flouride in the water, etc.

  • sg

    “Additionally, FICA and Medicare, while constitutionally dubious programs, are in place and unlikely to be repealed anytime soon.”

    He, he.

    They may not be repealed by an act of Congress, but by uh, something else.

    As the humorist, Dave Barry, noted,

    Gravity strictly enforced.

  • sg

    “Additionally, FICA and Medicare, while constitutionally dubious programs, are in place and unlikely to be repealed anytime soon.”

    He, he.

    They may not be repealed by an act of Congress, but by uh, something else.

    As the humorist, Dave Barry, noted,

    Gravity strictly enforced.

  • DonS

    Very constructive, Andrew. And, not at all racist. How is it that you think you are any better than those you hate?

  • DonS

    Very constructive, Andrew. And, not at all racist. How is it that you think you are any better than those you hate?

  • fws

    “Drop the violent and seditious rhetoric. I know what Thomas Jefferson said. Thomas Jefferson, despite his many good ideas, was a Jacobin, an advocate of a French-style revolution. He is not on your side.

    Try not to scare people. Americans really do tend to be conservative, which means they have little sympathy with radicals of any stripe, including radical conservatives.”

    Amen.

    H0nor elected officials and politicians and use that honoring to encourage them to elevate their practices. Do this especially for politicians with whom you disagree. Never go “ad-homen”.

    Immerse yourself in the information from the “other side”. be it fox or msnbc. It may make your blood boil , but assume that the “other side” feels they are just as righteous and reasonable as you are. Try to understand why they feel this is so rather than reduce what they say or worse who they are to a characture that is then easily dismissed. When you feel challenged and perplexed in trying to respond reasonably to their core arguments , that may mean that you have come close to understanding why it is that they believe and think as they do.

    Evil and error present themselves as light and not as evil and error. Which means we will best see evil as the evil it is when we first look for it and grapple with it within our own selves. This will equip us with the humility that is absolutely essential in knowing how to deal with it in others and to know if , in fact, it is given to us or we are charged by God to deal with a particular manifestation of evil. Sometimes we simply need to mind our own business. And we hate that don´t we?

  • fws

    “Drop the violent and seditious rhetoric. I know what Thomas Jefferson said. Thomas Jefferson, despite his many good ideas, was a Jacobin, an advocate of a French-style revolution. He is not on your side.

    Try not to scare people. Americans really do tend to be conservative, which means they have little sympathy with radicals of any stripe, including radical conservatives.”

    Amen.

    H0nor elected officials and politicians and use that honoring to encourage them to elevate their practices. Do this especially for politicians with whom you disagree. Never go “ad-homen”.

    Immerse yourself in the information from the “other side”. be it fox or msnbc. It may make your blood boil , but assume that the “other side” feels they are just as righteous and reasonable as you are. Try to understand why they feel this is so rather than reduce what they say or worse who they are to a characture that is then easily dismissed. When you feel challenged and perplexed in trying to respond reasonably to their core arguments , that may mean that you have come close to understanding why it is that they believe and think as they do.

    Evil and error present themselves as light and not as evil and error. Which means we will best see evil as the evil it is when we first look for it and grapple with it within our own selves. This will equip us with the humility that is absolutely essential in knowing how to deal with it in others and to know if , in fact, it is given to us or we are charged by God to deal with a particular manifestation of evil. Sometimes we simply need to mind our own business. And we hate that don´t we?

  • Andrew

    DonS, I love your name calling, bro, but ain’t nothin’ racist or hateful about sayin’ what’s plain – that 98 percent of the tea crowd is white and confused.

  • Andrew

    DonS, I love your name calling, bro, but ain’t nothin’ racist or hateful about sayin’ what’s plain – that 98 percent of the tea crowd is white and confused.

  • DonS

    Andrew @ 52: My name calling? Let’s see: “tea baggers” @ 11, which you admit @ 43 is used by “anti-Tea Partiers” “as a form of mockery or derision”. “white privilege” @ 15. “know nothing white America” @ 48. “98 percent of the tea crowd is white and confused” @ 52.

    Yeah, no name calling there.

    By the way, why don’t you support your notion that the tea party activists are 98% white. I strongly doubt that to be the case, and you haven’t provided a shred of evidence to date on this thread to justify your blatant racism.

  • DonS

    Andrew @ 52: My name calling? Let’s see: “tea baggers” @ 11, which you admit @ 43 is used by “anti-Tea Partiers” “as a form of mockery or derision”. “white privilege” @ 15. “know nothing white America” @ 48. “98 percent of the tea crowd is white and confused” @ 52.

    Yeah, no name calling there.

    By the way, why don’t you support your notion that the tea party activists are 98% white. I strongly doubt that to be the case, and you haven’t provided a shred of evidence to date on this thread to justify your blatant racism.

  • sg

    So what if tea party folks are mostly white. It would be interesting to see what percent of taxes are paid by whites. Then we just might see that whites are actually under represented at tea parties. That is if 90% of tea party folks are white but 95% of taxes are paid by whites, then whites are under represented.

    People of any background should be able to protest government policies without people calling them racists. It is just a distraction. They don’t want to discuss the issues the tea parties are complaining about so they call them racists to derail the discussions. Even if we were completely homogenous ethnically, a growing deficit is a bad idea. Japan is 99% Japanese and their debt is every bit as much of a problem.

  • sg

    So what if tea party folks are mostly white. It would be interesting to see what percent of taxes are paid by whites. Then we just might see that whites are actually under represented at tea parties. That is if 90% of tea party folks are white but 95% of taxes are paid by whites, then whites are under represented.

    People of any background should be able to protest government policies without people calling them racists. It is just a distraction. They don’t want to discuss the issues the tea parties are complaining about so they call them racists to derail the discussions. Even if we were completely homogenous ethnically, a growing deficit is a bad idea. Japan is 99% Japanese and their debt is every bit as much of a problem.

  • John C

    Would you have any objections to the Federal Government designing a national curriculm and through tests, setting national standards and benchmarks, sg?
    Electing members of the public for positions on state boards of education is just ridiculous, sg. Education is far too important for for the local dentist to have the final say on what is set in the science curriculm.
    I would also add that the increase in homeschooled children is not a cause for celebration. It is more an indication of the rejection of mainstream education and will lead to an even more fractured and divided society.
    President Kennedy’s challenge, to send a man to the moon within the decade, could not be achieved in today’s society. For a start, there is probably no consesus in Christian science on how old the moon is.

  • John C

    Would you have any objections to the Federal Government designing a national curriculm and through tests, setting national standards and benchmarks, sg?
    Electing members of the public for positions on state boards of education is just ridiculous, sg. Education is far too important for for the local dentist to have the final say on what is set in the science curriculm.
    I would also add that the increase in homeschooled children is not a cause for celebration. It is more an indication of the rejection of mainstream education and will lead to an even more fractured and divided society.
    President Kennedy’s challenge, to send a man to the moon within the decade, could not be achieved in today’s society. For a start, there is probably no consesus in Christian science on how old the moon is.

  • DonS

    sg @ 54: Don’t concede the point to a racist like Andrew. Every video and photo I have seen of Tea Party rallies include a great number of women and a fair number of non-whites. By no means is it a monolithic movement, and by no means is it anywhere near 98% white.

  • DonS

    sg @ 54: Don’t concede the point to a racist like Andrew. Every video and photo I have seen of Tea Party rallies include a great number of women and a fair number of non-whites. By no means is it a monolithic movement, and by no means is it anywhere near 98% white.

  • Daniel Gorman

    My advice to the Tea Party membership is: Don’t trust the Neocons who control the Republican Party. They will use you and discard you just as they did in 2001. Their goal is a much larger, most intrusive, most expensive, government than anything the liberals could possible conceive. If your choice in November is between a Neocon and a liberal, vote for the liberal.

  • Daniel Gorman

    My advice to the Tea Party membership is: Don’t trust the Neocons who control the Republican Party. They will use you and discard you just as they did in 2001. Their goal is a much larger, most intrusive, most expensive, government than anything the liberals could possible conceive. If your choice in November is between a Neocon and a liberal, vote for the liberal.

  • sg

    John C, I have to disagree.

    You said,
    “Would you have any objections to the Federal Government designing a national curriculm and through tests, setting national standards and benchmarks, sg?”

    It doesn’t matter if I have objections. National curriculum is specifically proscribed. Anyway, we already have NAEP, Stanford 10, Iowa tests, SAT, ACT. So we already have national measures of what and how well students are learning. We don’t need more expensive redundancy.

    “Electing members of the public for positions on state boards of education is just ridiculous, sg. Education is far too important for for the local dentist to have the final say on what is set in the science curriculm.”

    People have the right and responsibility of self government. That includes selecting members of school boards. We have had presidents that did not even attend school let alone have a curriculum designed by experts.

    “I would also add that the increase in homeschooled children is not a cause for celebration.”

    Sure it is. The kids are home learning loyalty to family.

    “It is more an indication of the rejection of mainstream education and will lead to an even more fractured and divided society.”

    Okay, we have the right to be fractured and divided. It is called diversity. Anyway homeschooling in illegal in Germany and they are well on their way to being fractured and divided because of muslim immigration.

    “President Kennedy’s challenge, to send a man to the moon within the decade, could not be achieved in today’s society. For a start, there is probably no consesus in Christian science on how old the moon is.”

    Silly. Of course it could. You don’t need to know the age of the moon in order to get there. It seems you try to disparage Christians working in science as if you didn’t know that Christians built and populated the institutions of science that achieved what we have today.

  • sg

    John C, I have to disagree.

    You said,
    “Would you have any objections to the Federal Government designing a national curriculm and through tests, setting national standards and benchmarks, sg?”

    It doesn’t matter if I have objections. National curriculum is specifically proscribed. Anyway, we already have NAEP, Stanford 10, Iowa tests, SAT, ACT. So we already have national measures of what and how well students are learning. We don’t need more expensive redundancy.

    “Electing members of the public for positions on state boards of education is just ridiculous, sg. Education is far too important for for the local dentist to have the final say on what is set in the science curriculm.”

    People have the right and responsibility of self government. That includes selecting members of school boards. We have had presidents that did not even attend school let alone have a curriculum designed by experts.

    “I would also add that the increase in homeschooled children is not a cause for celebration.”

    Sure it is. The kids are home learning loyalty to family.

    “It is more an indication of the rejection of mainstream education and will lead to an even more fractured and divided society.”

    Okay, we have the right to be fractured and divided. It is called diversity. Anyway homeschooling in illegal in Germany and they are well on their way to being fractured and divided because of muslim immigration.

    “President Kennedy’s challenge, to send a man to the moon within the decade, could not be achieved in today’s society. For a start, there is probably no consesus in Christian science on how old the moon is.”

    Silly. Of course it could. You don’t need to know the age of the moon in order to get there. It seems you try to disparage Christians working in science as if you didn’t know that Christians built and populated the institutions of science that achieved what we have today.

  • John C

    Well sg, you certainly don’t need to know the age of a river before you cross it but if you are sending men to the moon, you wouldn’t want creation scientists doing any of the science.
    Seriously, you can’t let your kids be sidetracked by bunkum.
    A fractured and divided society does not necessary lead to diversity: it may lead to inertia and decline.
    Since Muslim and Christian fundamentalists share the same views on evolution I am relieved to hear homeschooling is banned in Germany.

  • John C

    Well sg, you certainly don’t need to know the age of a river before you cross it but if you are sending men to the moon, you wouldn’t want creation scientists doing any of the science.
    Seriously, you can’t let your kids be sidetracked by bunkum.
    A fractured and divided society does not necessary lead to diversity: it may lead to inertia and decline.
    Since Muslim and Christian fundamentalists share the same views on evolution I am relieved to hear homeschooling is banned in Germany.

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    Andrew, John C.,
    Call it racist or bigoted or whatever, but the desire for less government intervention in our lives, especially less corrupt government; the desire to restrain runaway spending on the part of state, local, and federal governments; the revulsion of paying with our tax dollars for an ever increasing list of favors and pork, is our right, and some would say our heritage. The Tea Partiers are not dissuaded by false charges of racism or ignorance.
    You guys need to brace yourselves for change, because its coming, whether it is brought in by groups like the Tea Party or forced by the hard economic reality that there isn’t enough money to cover federal entitlement obligations as they now stand. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the system is broken and won’t continue forever.
    So go ahead and name call, and rant about stupid racists, blah, blah ,blah…. its coming

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    Andrew, John C.,
    Call it racist or bigoted or whatever, but the desire for less government intervention in our lives, especially less corrupt government; the desire to restrain runaway spending on the part of state, local, and federal governments; the revulsion of paying with our tax dollars for an ever increasing list of favors and pork, is our right, and some would say our heritage. The Tea Partiers are not dissuaded by false charges of racism or ignorance.
    You guys need to brace yourselves for change, because its coming, whether it is brought in by groups like the Tea Party or forced by the hard economic reality that there isn’t enough money to cover federal entitlement obligations as they now stand. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the system is broken and won’t continue forever.
    So go ahead and name call, and rant about stupid racists, blah, blah ,blah…. its coming

  • sg

    He, he. John C, you crack me up.

    ” if you are sending men to the moon, you wouldn’t want creation scientists doing any of the science.”

    They managed to get us there last time.

    “Seriously, you can’t let your kids be sidetracked by bunkum.”

    I am not. They are getting a private Christian education.

    “A fractured and divided society does not necessary lead to diversity: it may lead to inertia and decline.”

    Maybe it will, but it is better for some people to go the right way than for all of them to go the wrong way.

    “Since Muslim and Christian fundamentalists share the same views on evolution I am relieved to hear homeschooling is banned in Germany.”

    The ban is a leftover, literally, of the Nazi laws. They don’t want parallel societies. Anyway, that is their problem. Their people can vote to change it if they want to. However, minority rights are specifically protected in the US. Even if you don’t agree with a given minority, they still have the right to do what they want and you should respect their right to be different.

    Teaching evolution in schools does not mean people are going to understand it anyway. I was reading the NY Times article on the evolution of adult milk tolerance “Human Culture, an Evolutionary Force” by Nicholas Wade March 1, 2010
    After reading the nonsensical reactions to the article in the comments, an astute reader made the final comment and best observation, “There is an astonishing amount of scientific illiteracy displayed in these comments, ranging from the person denying that evolution is “causal” on the grounds that it is “non-teleological” — an absurd non sequitur, whether something is teleological has no necessary relation to whether it is causal — to the gibberish about inheritance of “acquired traits.” Evidently a significant portion of the NYT readership is composed of convinced Lamarckists. Sad. This article’s research has absolutely nothing to do with Lamarckism. And that’s not even to mention the various bonkers permutations of “evolutionary theory” other commenters are putting forward.

    “Goes to show that creationists aren’t the only ones operating with a miserably defective understanding of how the modern evolutionary synthesis works. Apparently most of the NYT readership is in the same boat as the creationists.”

    Most people who believe in evolution don’t understand it. Scientists who do understand it have a much different view of it than the general public does. gnxp.com

    Finally, youth academic talent programs like mathcamp.org are staffed by folks who make sure the talented youth have a ride to their religious services on the weekends.

  • sg

    He, he. John C, you crack me up.

    ” if you are sending men to the moon, you wouldn’t want creation scientists doing any of the science.”

    They managed to get us there last time.

    “Seriously, you can’t let your kids be sidetracked by bunkum.”

    I am not. They are getting a private Christian education.

    “A fractured and divided society does not necessary lead to diversity: it may lead to inertia and decline.”

    Maybe it will, but it is better for some people to go the right way than for all of them to go the wrong way.

    “Since Muslim and Christian fundamentalists share the same views on evolution I am relieved to hear homeschooling is banned in Germany.”

    The ban is a leftover, literally, of the Nazi laws. They don’t want parallel societies. Anyway, that is their problem. Their people can vote to change it if they want to. However, minority rights are specifically protected in the US. Even if you don’t agree with a given minority, they still have the right to do what they want and you should respect their right to be different.

    Teaching evolution in schools does not mean people are going to understand it anyway. I was reading the NY Times article on the evolution of adult milk tolerance “Human Culture, an Evolutionary Force” by Nicholas Wade March 1, 2010
    After reading the nonsensical reactions to the article in the comments, an astute reader made the final comment and best observation, “There is an astonishing amount of scientific illiteracy displayed in these comments, ranging from the person denying that evolution is “causal” on the grounds that it is “non-teleological” — an absurd non sequitur, whether something is teleological has no necessary relation to whether it is causal — to the gibberish about inheritance of “acquired traits.” Evidently a significant portion of the NYT readership is composed of convinced Lamarckists. Sad. This article’s research has absolutely nothing to do with Lamarckism. And that’s not even to mention the various bonkers permutations of “evolutionary theory” other commenters are putting forward.

    “Goes to show that creationists aren’t the only ones operating with a miserably defective understanding of how the modern evolutionary synthesis works. Apparently most of the NYT readership is in the same boat as the creationists.”

    Most people who believe in evolution don’t understand it. Scientists who do understand it have a much different view of it than the general public does. gnxp.com

    Finally, youth academic talent programs like mathcamp.org are staffed by folks who make sure the talented youth have a ride to their religious services on the weekends.

  • John C

    I don’t want to see homeschooling banned but it is interesting germany has recognized the threat to social cohesion and has legislated against it.
    Evolution is a complex area of understanding but at least the quest for understanding continues and is not hindered by the idea that gaps in our knowledge can be explained away because “the Intelligent Designer did it”.

  • John C

    I don’t want to see homeschooling banned but it is interesting germany has recognized the threat to social cohesion and has legislated against it.
    Evolution is a complex area of understanding but at least the quest for understanding continues and is not hindered by the idea that gaps in our knowledge can be explained away because “the Intelligent Designer did it”.

  • sg

    “Evolution is a complex area of understanding but at least the quest for understanding continues and is not hindered by the idea that gaps in our knowledge can be explained away because “the Intelligent Designer did it”.”

    Stop and think for a minute. Anyone who can actually understand evolution is not so intellectually limited that they the will be hindered in their understanding by a theological perspective. However, as my atheist friends note, the 95% of people who can’t understand scientific theories in no way benefit from the diminishment of religious social values.

    The German government didn’t think that homeschooling was a threat to social cohesion, rather the opposite. They don’t want any loyalty to compete with their official state “education”. Note that Europe with its official state churches has far weaker churches as compared to the independent churches of the USA.

  • sg

    “Evolution is a complex area of understanding but at least the quest for understanding continues and is not hindered by the idea that gaps in our knowledge can be explained away because “the Intelligent Designer did it”.”

    Stop and think for a minute. Anyone who can actually understand evolution is not so intellectually limited that they the will be hindered in their understanding by a theological perspective. However, as my atheist friends note, the 95% of people who can’t understand scientific theories in no way benefit from the diminishment of religious social values.

    The German government didn’t think that homeschooling was a threat to social cohesion, rather the opposite. They don’t want any loyalty to compete with their official state “education”. Note that Europe with its official state churches has far weaker churches as compared to the independent churches of the USA.

  • http://redemptivethoughts.com John H. Guthrie

    Actually Jeffersons radical tendencies have been greatly exaggerated. Jefferson was present in France when the French Revolution began. The very beginning of the Revolution was mostly non-violent. Jefferson favored the overthrow of the monarchy but supported moderates over the Jacobins. The quote comes from a private letter to James Madison discovered long after both men were dead. (Jefferson’s public statements concerning the revolution were moderate in tone.) In it, Jefferson is commenting on Shay’s rebellion, a protest by Massachusettes (Spelling?) farmers against taxes. This incident led to the Constitutional Convention. Jefferson supported the farmers right to rebel but thought the farmers acted out of ignorance. Jefferson supposed radical tendencies have been exaggerated by historians such as Conor Cruise Obrien who tried to link Jefferson’s philosophy to Timothy McVeigh’s actions.

  • http://redemptivethoughts.com John H. Guthrie

    Actually Jeffersons radical tendencies have been greatly exaggerated. Jefferson was present in France when the French Revolution began. The very beginning of the Revolution was mostly non-violent. Jefferson favored the overthrow of the monarchy but supported moderates over the Jacobins. The quote comes from a private letter to James Madison discovered long after both men were dead. (Jefferson’s public statements concerning the revolution were moderate in tone.) In it, Jefferson is commenting on Shay’s rebellion, a protest by Massachusettes (Spelling?) farmers against taxes. This incident led to the Constitutional Convention. Jefferson supported the farmers right to rebel but thought the farmers acted out of ignorance. Jefferson supposed radical tendencies have been exaggerated by historians such as Conor Cruise Obrien who tried to link Jefferson’s philosophy to Timothy McVeigh’s actions.


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