The bloodiest war since WWII

If Ben Affleck is right, a slaughter that approached Holocaust proportions happened, but hardly any of us noticed:

Ask many Americans to name the bloodiest war since World War II and chances are that most would not know the answer. If you told them it was in Africa, they might guess Rwanda or the ongoing conflict in Sudan. They’d be wrong.

By far, the deadliest conflict was in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo from 1998 to 2003. Eight African nations participated in the fighting on Congolese soil, many hoping to seize control of its vast mineral wealth. Some 4 million Congolese died during the conflict and nearly another 1 million have died in the lawless aftermath from starvation, conflict and preventable disease. Tens of thousands of children were forced to become soldiers, and as many as two out of three women were victimized by rape and other forms of sexual violence.

This is still happening today.

via Ben Affleck – Ben Affleck: How the United States can help secure Congo.

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  • Reg Schofield

    I thought this was a very well written piece. Affleck seems to have a solid grasp of the situation , which was refreshing. I have talked to others about this very situation and have always been ashamed of my own countries lack of response (I’m from Canada ). I often wonder why world powers can ideally sit by , while real evil happens. Is it because they feel that it has no national interest economically or militarily ? Truly a tragic and horrendous situation.

  • Reg Schofield

    I thought this was a very well written piece. Affleck seems to have a solid grasp of the situation , which was refreshing. I have talked to others about this very situation and have always been ashamed of my own countries lack of response (I’m from Canada ). I often wonder why world powers can ideally sit by , while real evil happens. Is it because they feel that it has no national interest economically or militarily ? Truly a tragic and horrendous situation.

  • What happens there now is the ongoing result of a number of things: As a colony, the DRC was exceptionally badly run as a colony, essentialy being raped of its resources, much more than other African colonies. Then, after independance, the charasmatic Patrice Lubumba was elected, and shortly after that deposited, and murdered, with backing by Belgian authorities and the CIA.

    Then, after 5 years of turmoil, Mobuto Sese Seko took over in a coup, and with the backing of the Us and others (including China, interesting), ruled the country with an iron fist till he was overthrown by Kabila in mid 1997, dying later that year in Morocco in exile. This was as a direct result of his pro-Hutu policies, and the genocide in Rwanada.

    Once again it seems that overt (and uninvited) meddling in other countries’ affairs, for perceived gain, has long term effects that are unforseen, and catastrophic. Eisenhower wanted Lubumba dead, because he perceived him to be communist, although the latter claimed that he despised communism and colonialism in equal measures, preferring a non-aligned stance. This happened in the same era as the meddeling in Iran and the deposition of Mossadegh by the CIA and MI6.

    It does seem that in their anti-Communist zeal, the West went too far and sowed the seeds for some of today’s worst conflicts – including the backing of the Mujahideen, which (possibly) paved the way for the Taliban today.

    Thus it is clear that one should be extremely careful and circumspect about one’s foreign involvement. The best intentions can have the worst results.

  • What happens there now is the ongoing result of a number of things: As a colony, the DRC was exceptionally badly run as a colony, essentialy being raped of its resources, much more than other African colonies. Then, after independance, the charasmatic Patrice Lubumba was elected, and shortly after that deposited, and murdered, with backing by Belgian authorities and the CIA.

    Then, after 5 years of turmoil, Mobuto Sese Seko took over in a coup, and with the backing of the Us and others (including China, interesting), ruled the country with an iron fist till he was overthrown by Kabila in mid 1997, dying later that year in Morocco in exile. This was as a direct result of his pro-Hutu policies, and the genocide in Rwanada.

    Once again it seems that overt (and uninvited) meddling in other countries’ affairs, for perceived gain, has long term effects that are unforseen, and catastrophic. Eisenhower wanted Lubumba dead, because he perceived him to be communist, although the latter claimed that he despised communism and colonialism in equal measures, preferring a non-aligned stance. This happened in the same era as the meddeling in Iran and the deposition of Mossadegh by the CIA and MI6.

    It does seem that in their anti-Communist zeal, the West went too far and sowed the seeds for some of today’s worst conflicts – including the backing of the Mujahideen, which (possibly) paved the way for the Taliban today.

    Thus it is clear that one should be extremely careful and circumspect about one’s foreign involvement. The best intentions can have the worst results.

  • SKPeterson

    Louis – that sound suspiciously like “blowback”. US foreign policy decisions DO NOT have negative consequences. Negative outcomes are the result of haters.

  • SKPeterson

    Louis – that sound suspiciously like “blowback”. US foreign policy decisions DO NOT have negative consequences. Negative outcomes are the result of haters.

  • SKPeterson (@3), to what degree is your comment serious? Maybe I’m just reading it wrong, but …

  • SKPeterson (@3), to what degree is your comment serious? Maybe I’m just reading it wrong, but …

  • Hmm. Judging by the number of comments, it’s still true that hardly any of us noticed. Thanks for posting this, though, Dr. Veith.

  • Hmm. Judging by the number of comments, it’s still true that hardly any of us noticed. Thanks for posting this, though, Dr. Veith.

  • Excatly Todd. I mean, they aren’t White Anglo Saxon Tea Party Republican Evangelicals who want lower taxes, or folks who support the lifestyles of aforementioned demographic. So who cares?

    Sarcasm off.

    In reality, I find that people are perplexed by Africa’s comlex issues, therefore they ignore it – unless it has a direct economic impact, like Somali piracy. Or else maybe if Oprah has it on her show….. which will end soon, I believe? (I don’t really follow that stuff).

  • Excatly Todd. I mean, they aren’t White Anglo Saxon Tea Party Republican Evangelicals who want lower taxes, or folks who support the lifestyles of aforementioned demographic. So who cares?

    Sarcasm off.

    In reality, I find that people are perplexed by Africa’s comlex issues, therefore they ignore it – unless it has a direct economic impact, like Somali piracy. Or else maybe if Oprah has it on her show….. which will end soon, I believe? (I don’t really follow that stuff).

  • Grace

    Africa has many severe problems – famine/starvation, wars, crime, and an endless problem with HIV/AIDS – their practice of circumcision for young girls is hideous.

    I believe the problems within Africa are beyond the scope of involvement for any country, and that would include the United States. Sending medicine, food, teams of doctor’s, nurses, medical equipment and HIV/AIDS medical help and medication, has and will continue. One of our good friends a physician, (gastroenterologist) just returned from a mission trip to Kenya. However, becoming involved with one of their wars is not something the U.S. should contemplate.

    There are just so many men and women who are available in our military – we cannot as a nation, continue to shore up all the problems that a continent such as Africa presents, it’s not within our capabilities, nor should it fall on the shoulders of our young men and women – many of which have little to no historical knowledge of what Africa represents, or their heathen practices, and brutal life style.

  • Grace

    Africa has many severe problems – famine/starvation, wars, crime, and an endless problem with HIV/AIDS – their practice of circumcision for young girls is hideous.

    I believe the problems within Africa are beyond the scope of involvement for any country, and that would include the United States. Sending medicine, food, teams of doctor’s, nurses, medical equipment and HIV/AIDS medical help and medication, has and will continue. One of our good friends a physician, (gastroenterologist) just returned from a mission trip to Kenya. However, becoming involved with one of their wars is not something the U.S. should contemplate.

    There are just so many men and women who are available in our military – we cannot as a nation, continue to shore up all the problems that a continent such as Africa presents, it’s not within our capabilities, nor should it fall on the shoulders of our young men and women – many of which have little to no historical knowledge of what Africa represents, or their heathen practices, and brutal life style.

  • Grace (@7), it would be interesting to take your statement and see if you agree with it for different regions: “We cannot as a nation, continue to shore up all the problems that _______ presents, it’s not within our capabilities, nor should it fall on the shoulders of our young men and women – many of which have little to no historical knowledge of what _______ represents, or their heathen practices, and brutal life style.”

    Is there any region that wouldn’t fit aptly in those blanks for you?

  • Grace (@7), it would be interesting to take your statement and see if you agree with it for different regions: “We cannot as a nation, continue to shore up all the problems that _______ presents, it’s not within our capabilities, nor should it fall on the shoulders of our young men and women – many of which have little to no historical knowledge of what _______ represents, or their heathen practices, and brutal life style.”

    Is there any region that wouldn’t fit aptly in those blanks for you?

  • Grace

    tODD – 8 “Is there any region that wouldn’t fit aptly in those blanks for you?”

    It would depend upon why these countries were at war. If however, they were invaded or attacked as we were in 1941, OR 9-11 OR the killing of Jews, as in WW2, the countries below I would support and include to defend by our military, IF we had the troops. Even if we didn’t, I am confident our country would support and do what they could to help.

    Yes there are, most countries in Europe, Israel, most islands in the Caribbean, some countries in Central and South America, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, and the Phillipines … perhaps others.

  • Grace

    tODD – 8 “Is there any region that wouldn’t fit aptly in those blanks for you?”

    It would depend upon why these countries were at war. If however, they were invaded or attacked as we were in 1941, OR 9-11 OR the killing of Jews, as in WW2, the countries below I would support and include to defend by our military, IF we had the troops. Even if we didn’t, I am confident our country would support and do what they could to help.

    Yes there are, most countries in Europe, Israel, most islands in the Caribbean, some countries in Central and South America, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, and the Phillipines … perhaps others.

  • Grace replied (@9), “It would depend upon why these countries were at war.” Wait, what? Your initial statement was just about “Africa”. And all of Africa is not at war, nor were they in the context of this article. So did your statement (@7) only apply to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?

    The rest of your reply didn’t really make sense to me, either. The story is about a country that was “invaded or attacked”, though I have no idea what criteria you’d use to judge whether it was “as we were in 1941” — by the Japanese? By fighter planes? And why does the genocide of the Jews merit our involvement, but the genocide of the Tutsis (as just one possible example) doesn’t?

    Interestingly, your list of regions that do merit our involvement does not list the region abroad where are troops are actually engaged right now.

  • Grace replied (@9), “It would depend upon why these countries were at war.” Wait, what? Your initial statement was just about “Africa”. And all of Africa is not at war, nor were they in the context of this article. So did your statement (@7) only apply to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?

    The rest of your reply didn’t really make sense to me, either. The story is about a country that was “invaded or attacked”, though I have no idea what criteria you’d use to judge whether it was “as we were in 1941” — by the Japanese? By fighter planes? And why does the genocide of the Jews merit our involvement, but the genocide of the Tutsis (as just one possible example) doesn’t?

    Interestingly, your list of regions that do merit our involvement does not list the region abroad where are troops are actually engaged right now.

  • Grace

    tODD – 10

    It doesn’t surprise me that you find just about everything wrong with my answer – but of course….. you knew that before I answered, – LOL – and then there is “The rest of your reply didn’t really make sense to me, either.”

    “So did your statement (@7) only apply to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?”

    Read it over again: “Yes there are, most countries in Europe, Israel, most islands in the Caribbean, some countries in Central and South America, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, and the Phillipines … perhaps others.”

    As for the Tutsi, and Jews; Six million Jews…. that was a massive extermination/holocaust, Germany. The genocide of the Tutsis was a civil war. Big difference.

    tODD, did you read the last few words in my previous post? “perhaps others.” – yes it includes Iraq.

    I could have BET BUCKS you would mention the Jews in some sort of way as an argument for whatever the United States has not supported with our military – it never fails, not with you necessarily, but with certain groups of people. Oh the love for the Jews, God’s chosen people – I wonder how long its going to take for some people to embrace the chosen ones of the LORD?

  • Grace

    tODD – 10

    It doesn’t surprise me that you find just about everything wrong with my answer – but of course….. you knew that before I answered, – LOL – and then there is “The rest of your reply didn’t really make sense to me, either.”

    “So did your statement (@7) only apply to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?”

    Read it over again: “Yes there are, most countries in Europe, Israel, most islands in the Caribbean, some countries in Central and South America, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, and the Phillipines … perhaps others.”

    As for the Tutsi, and Jews; Six million Jews…. that was a massive extermination/holocaust, Germany. The genocide of the Tutsis was a civil war. Big difference.

    tODD, did you read the last few words in my previous post? “perhaps others.” – yes it includes Iraq.

    I could have BET BUCKS you would mention the Jews in some sort of way as an argument for whatever the United States has not supported with our military – it never fails, not with you necessarily, but with certain groups of people. Oh the love for the Jews, God’s chosen people – I wonder how long its going to take for some people to embrace the chosen ones of the LORD?

  • Grace (@11), I’m afraid you’re asking me to have read your mind, not just what you wrote on this thread.

    My question was whether your statement (@7) — which, please note, only ever used the word “Africa” — applied “to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?” But your reply (@11) only tells me that you think that South Africa merits our involvement. That wasn’t what I asked. I asked what you were referring to in your comment @7, which was about countries (“Africa”) we shouldn’t be involved in.

    And, I’m sorry, but expecting me to understand that “perhaps others” included Iraq … ?! Really? How was I supposed to figure that out. What about Afghanistan?

    You may notice that you haven’t given any reasons why the countries you listed (@9) merit our involvement. You just listed them.

    But here’s my point: Iraq, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, the Phillipines … all of these countries and regions “present problems” that are beyond “our capabilities”, nor does the average American citizen have “historical knowledge” of those areas, much less understand their “life styles”. So, again, why do you think those countries deserve our involvement, while the Congo, et al., do not?

    As for your “bet”, you were the one to mention the Jews first (@9). I was merely asking why you care about their genocide, but not other genocides. Your answer appears to boil down to strict numbers. That said, I’m not sure the Jewish genocide was all that much greater when considered as a proportion of the population.

    As for the Jews today being “God’s chosen people”, I think you need to do some more rereading of Romans 9-11.

  • Grace (@11), I’m afraid you’re asking me to have read your mind, not just what you wrote on this thread.

    My question was whether your statement (@7) — which, please note, only ever used the word “Africa” — applied “to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?” But your reply (@11) only tells me that you think that South Africa merits our involvement. That wasn’t what I asked. I asked what you were referring to in your comment @7, which was about countries (“Africa”) we shouldn’t be involved in.

    And, I’m sorry, but expecting me to understand that “perhaps others” included Iraq … ?! Really? How was I supposed to figure that out. What about Afghanistan?

    You may notice that you haven’t given any reasons why the countries you listed (@9) merit our involvement. You just listed them.

    But here’s my point: Iraq, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, the Phillipines … all of these countries and regions “present problems” that are beyond “our capabilities”, nor does the average American citizen have “historical knowledge” of those areas, much less understand their “life styles”. So, again, why do you think those countries deserve our involvement, while the Congo, et al., do not?

    As for your “bet”, you were the one to mention the Jews first (@9). I was merely asking why you care about their genocide, but not other genocides. Your answer appears to boil down to strict numbers. That said, I’m not sure the Jewish genocide was all that much greater when considered as a proportion of the population.

    As for the Jews today being “God’s chosen people”, I think you need to do some more rereading of Romans 9-11.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I think we should sell drones to all the African tribes and governments since they are so good at reducing war casualties. I don’t understand why we’re not just giving these things away.

    On a more serious note. I just wrote a small diplomatic/church related letter for my bud on his way to Sudan for Christmas. I’ve got another friend there now who is there more for support for the upcoming elections which I am tremendously concerned about. What I’m curious to learn more about is how the various African country challenges are interrelated. It is a really confusing place to try to help in any capacity. My personal thoughts are that you just try to help in the small ways that you are able and try to look very sternly and cross when you have opportunity at those with the power to help who don’t seem to even give a s___.

    Good post, dear Veith.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I think we should sell drones to all the African tribes and governments since they are so good at reducing war casualties. I don’t understand why we’re not just giving these things away.

    On a more serious note. I just wrote a small diplomatic/church related letter for my bud on his way to Sudan for Christmas. I’ve got another friend there now who is there more for support for the upcoming elections which I am tremendously concerned about. What I’m curious to learn more about is how the various African country challenges are interrelated. It is a really confusing place to try to help in any capacity. My personal thoughts are that you just try to help in the small ways that you are able and try to look very sternly and cross when you have opportunity at those with the power to help who don’t seem to even give a s___.

    Good post, dear Veith.

  • Grace

    tODD – 12
    – “My question was whether your statement (@7) — which, please note, only ever used the word “Africa” — applied “to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?” But your reply (@11) only tells me that you think that South Africa merits our involvement. That wasn’t what I asked. I asked what you were referring to in your comment @7, which was about countries (“Africa”) we shouldn’t be involved in.

    And, I’m sorry, but expecting me to understand that “perhaps others” included Iraq … ?! Really? How was I supposed to figure that out. What about Afghanistan?” –

    Ending my comment #9 – – “perhaps others.” meant just what I stated. I wasn’t doing a long research of every single country to answer your question – “perhaps others.” is sufficient!

    – “You may notice that you haven’t given any reasons why the countries you listed (@9) merit our involvement. You just listed them.” –

    You’re right I didn’t – the reason is, I don’t have time to answer every single question you pose, this isn’t a test tODD, it’s a blog – You aren’t the teacher, and I certainly am NOT YOUR STUDENT, LOL

    – “But here’s my point: Iraq, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, the Phillipines … all of these countries and regions “present problems” that are beyond “our capabilities”, nor does the average American citizen have “historical knowledge” of those areas, much less understand their “life styles”. So, again, why do you think those countries deserve our involvement, while the Congo, et al., do not?” –

    You have asked a great many questions regarding many countries – I don’t have time.

    – “As for your “bet”, you were the one to mention the Jews first (@9). I was merely asking why you care about their genocide, but not other genocides. Your answer appears to boil down to strict numbers. That said, I’m not sure the Jewish genocide was all that much greater when considered as a proportion of the population.” –

    OK tODD, ….. the American people supported the Jews, they still support Israel – The Jews did nothing to bring down the wrath of Hitler, Germany and its minions – They will survive, God promised them –

    – “As for the Jews today being “God’s chosen people”, I think you need to do some more rereading of Romans 9-11.” –

    Answer forthcoming:

  • Grace

    tODD – 12
    – “My question was whether your statement (@7) — which, please note, only ever used the word “Africa” — applied “to the countries being mentioned in this article, or to all of Africa?” But your reply (@11) only tells me that you think that South Africa merits our involvement. That wasn’t what I asked. I asked what you were referring to in your comment @7, which was about countries (“Africa”) we shouldn’t be involved in.

    And, I’m sorry, but expecting me to understand that “perhaps others” included Iraq … ?! Really? How was I supposed to figure that out. What about Afghanistan?” –

    Ending my comment #9 – – “perhaps others.” meant just what I stated. I wasn’t doing a long research of every single country to answer your question – “perhaps others.” is sufficient!

    – “You may notice that you haven’t given any reasons why the countries you listed (@9) merit our involvement. You just listed them.” –

    You’re right I didn’t – the reason is, I don’t have time to answer every single question you pose, this isn’t a test tODD, it’s a blog – You aren’t the teacher, and I certainly am NOT YOUR STUDENT, LOL

    – “But here’s my point: Iraq, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, the Phillipines … all of these countries and regions “present problems” that are beyond “our capabilities”, nor does the average American citizen have “historical knowledge” of those areas, much less understand their “life styles”. So, again, why do you think those countries deserve our involvement, while the Congo, et al., do not?” –

    You have asked a great many questions regarding many countries – I don’t have time.

    – “As for your “bet”, you were the one to mention the Jews first (@9). I was merely asking why you care about their genocide, but not other genocides. Your answer appears to boil down to strict numbers. That said, I’m not sure the Jewish genocide was all that much greater when considered as a proportion of the population.” –

    OK tODD, ….. the American people supported the Jews, they still support Israel – The Jews did nothing to bring down the wrath of Hitler, Germany and its minions – They will survive, God promised them –

    – “As for the Jews today being “God’s chosen people”, I think you need to do some more rereading of Romans 9-11.” –

    Answer forthcoming:

  • Grace

    God’s Everlasting Covenant with Israel, the Jews

    21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

    23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

    25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

    26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

    27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. Ezekiel 37

    “everlasting covenant”

    “set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.”

    “my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.”

    This is God’s Covenant with Israel for “evermore” and “everlasting”- They are His chosen people!

  • Grace

    God’s Everlasting Covenant with Israel, the Jews

    21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

    23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

    25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

    26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

    27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. Ezekiel 37

    “everlasting covenant”

    “set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.”

    “my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.”

    This is God’s Covenant with Israel for “evermore” and “everlasting”- They are His chosen people!

  • SKPeterson

    tODD – just got back. the snark meter was on 11 when I wrote #3.

  • SKPeterson

    tODD – just got back. the snark meter was on 11 when I wrote #3.

  • SKPeterson

    Africa is full of problems (DRC, Zimbabwe, Uganda, Sudan, Ethiopia/Eritrea), but it also has a few bright spots (Botswana, Namibia, South Africa) and maybe a few coming back from the edge (Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda). There are no easy answers and the continent is teeming with ethnic and tribal tensions that cross the artificial boundaries created by the British and French. We see this also in the seemingly intractable problem of Afghanistan and several of the other ‘stans.

    My best idea is to foster trade with Africa, and speak up about governments respecting individual’s civil and property rights. That’s it, though. The best thing for Africa? For its politicians to not live in fear of losing power and to govern accordingly. Tall order.

  • SKPeterson

    Africa is full of problems (DRC, Zimbabwe, Uganda, Sudan, Ethiopia/Eritrea), but it also has a few bright spots (Botswana, Namibia, South Africa) and maybe a few coming back from the edge (Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda). There are no easy answers and the continent is teeming with ethnic and tribal tensions that cross the artificial boundaries created by the British and French. We see this also in the seemingly intractable problem of Afghanistan and several of the other ‘stans.

    My best idea is to foster trade with Africa, and speak up about governments respecting individual’s civil and property rights. That’s it, though. The best thing for Africa? For its politicians to not live in fear of losing power and to govern accordingly. Tall order.

  • trotk

    Grace, (and this question is not to provoke a fight) what is criteria you use to determine which countries we should get involved in?

  • trotk

    Grace, (and this question is not to provoke a fight) what is criteria you use to determine which countries we should get involved in?

  • SAL

    What can intervening in Africa contribute to America’s defense or economic security?

    For that matter I’d prefer we refrain from any foreign intervention absent a compelling national interest.

  • SAL

    What can intervening in Africa contribute to America’s defense or economic security?

    For that matter I’d prefer we refrain from any foreign intervention absent a compelling national interest.

  • Grace

    Trokt – 18

    “Grace, (and this question is not to provoke a fight) what is criteria you use to determine which countries we should get involved in?”

    That’s an interesting question Trokt – – I would start by saying; regarding Africa ….. past history, the tension and underlying tribal hatred, … add to that their inability to bridle sexual promiscuity,…. no matter how much the U.S has tried to help, and organizations such as Samaritan’s Purse, who have spent large amounts of money for medication, doctors, and others to administer medical aide, HIV/AIDS continues to soar. Education has little effect –

    I would be wary of involving our country, military men and women to enter into any kind of combat, knowing their history.

  • Grace

    Trokt – 18

    “Grace, (and this question is not to provoke a fight) what is criteria you use to determine which countries we should get involved in?”

    That’s an interesting question Trokt – – I would start by saying; regarding Africa ….. past history, the tension and underlying tribal hatred, … add to that their inability to bridle sexual promiscuity,…. no matter how much the U.S has tried to help, and organizations such as Samaritan’s Purse, who have spent large amounts of money for medication, doctors, and others to administer medical aide, HIV/AIDS continues to soar. Education has little effect –

    I would be wary of involving our country, military men and women to enter into any kind of combat, knowing their history.

  • SKPeterson

    Grace – how exactly is the U.S. supposed to bridle sexual promiscuity? And, why is that a factor in foreign policy?

    “I would be wary of involving our country, military men and women to enter into any kind of combat, knowing their history.”

    That would seem to apply to every people, everywhere.

  • SKPeterson

    Grace – how exactly is the U.S. supposed to bridle sexual promiscuity? And, why is that a factor in foreign policy?

    “I would be wary of involving our country, military men and women to enter into any kind of combat, knowing their history.”

    That would seem to apply to every people, everywhere.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 15, you’re right that the Jews are God’s chosen people, but so are we who’ve been grafted in. You’re also right that all the promises of God to the Jews will be fulfilled, as will all His promises concerning the Gentiles. But both will be fulfilled through faith in Jesus Christ, and through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (There aren’t two different ways to the Father.)

    So let’s not romanticize the present situation. There’s a faithful remnant among the Jews, but a hardening still exists among most of the Jews, and will continue to exist until the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in. And these hardened Jews are enemies of the Gospel (though they’re far from being the only enemies of the Gospel). Yes, you’re right that we’re to love these hardened Jews, but only because we’re to love our enemies – even enemies of the very Gospel itself. (This is exactly where Luther fell short toward the end of his life.)

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 15, you’re right that the Jews are God’s chosen people, but so are we who’ve been grafted in. You’re also right that all the promises of God to the Jews will be fulfilled, as will all His promises concerning the Gentiles. But both will be fulfilled through faith in Jesus Christ, and through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (There aren’t two different ways to the Father.)

    So let’s not romanticize the present situation. There’s a faithful remnant among the Jews, but a hardening still exists among most of the Jews, and will continue to exist until the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in. And these hardened Jews are enemies of the Gospel (though they’re far from being the only enemies of the Gospel). Yes, you’re right that we’re to love these hardened Jews, but only because we’re to love our enemies – even enemies of the very Gospel itself. (This is exactly where Luther fell short toward the end of his life.)

  • Grace

    Tom – 22

    “So let’s not romanticize the present situation. There’s a faithful remnant among the Jews, but a hardening still exists among most of the Jews, and will continue to exist until the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in. And these hardened Jews are enemies of the Gospel (though they’re far from being the only enemies of the Gospel). Yes, you’re right that we’re to love these hardened Jews, but only because we’re to love our enemies – even enemies of the very Gospel itself. (This is exactly where Luther fell short toward the end of his life.)”

    Anyone who denies Christ is an enemy of Him, and the Salvation which He gave, and shed His blood on the Cross.

    For more than 40 years there has been disdain for Israel and it has not been lost on the Evangelical Church. In some denominations there has been an ongoing acceptance of ‘REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.

    Replacement proponents believe that GOD is finished working through the literal nation of Israel. Though they claim that the New Testament is allegorical and Israel is now meant to be the church, those who are Believers in the LORD Jesus Christ, and that they (the church) have REPLACED Israel.

    What we see now, is a rise just as it was just before Hitler and Nazi Germany to make such a pronouncement that the Church is Spiritual Israel which is FALSE. Israel (Jews) are not just spiritual, they are a people whom GOD made and EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH.

    7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
    Genesis 17

    GOD does not break EVERLASTING Covenants with anyone.

    The children of Israel (Jews) have a special place, spoken of in Revelation as well.

  • Grace

    Tom – 22

    “So let’s not romanticize the present situation. There’s a faithful remnant among the Jews, but a hardening still exists among most of the Jews, and will continue to exist until the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in. And these hardened Jews are enemies of the Gospel (though they’re far from being the only enemies of the Gospel). Yes, you’re right that we’re to love these hardened Jews, but only because we’re to love our enemies – even enemies of the very Gospel itself. (This is exactly where Luther fell short toward the end of his life.)”

    Anyone who denies Christ is an enemy of Him, and the Salvation which He gave, and shed His blood on the Cross.

    For more than 40 years there has been disdain for Israel and it has not been lost on the Evangelical Church. In some denominations there has been an ongoing acceptance of ‘REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.

    Replacement proponents believe that GOD is finished working through the literal nation of Israel. Though they claim that the New Testament is allegorical and Israel is now meant to be the church, those who are Believers in the LORD Jesus Christ, and that they (the church) have REPLACED Israel.

    What we see now, is a rise just as it was just before Hitler and Nazi Germany to make such a pronouncement that the Church is Spiritual Israel which is FALSE. Israel (Jews) are not just spiritual, they are a people whom GOD made and EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH.

    7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
    Genesis 17

    GOD does not break EVERLASTING Covenants with anyone.

    The children of Israel (Jews) have a special place, spoken of in Revelation as well.

  • Grace

    21 SKPeterson –

    “Grace – how exactly is the U.S. supposed to bridle sexual promiscuity? And, why is that a factor in foreign policy? “

    I stated more reasons than “sexual promiscuity” in my post – cherry picking one reason doesn’t cover what I wrote.

  • Grace

    21 SKPeterson –

    “Grace – how exactly is the U.S. supposed to bridle sexual promiscuity? And, why is that a factor in foreign policy? “

    I stated more reasons than “sexual promiscuity” in my post – cherry picking one reason doesn’t cover what I wrote.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 23, no one in this thread has spoken as a proponent of Replacement Theology (by which I think you mean Hard Supersessionism), so why are you arguing against it in this thread? I thought your points were (A.) we should love the Jews (I agree) and (B.) God doesn’t go back on His promises (I agree). The only questions are: who is truly a Jew and what is spiritual Israel, and so, to whom do the promises apply?

    Even Messianic Jews don’t consider every single person who is genetically Jewish (literal Israel) to be spiritual Israel, but only (A.) every Messianic Jew – past, present, and future, i.e., “natural branches,” (B.) those Jews who at this moment reject Jesus Christ – but in whom God will create faith, i.e., “natural branches that have fallen off but will be grafted back in,” and (C.) Gentile believers, i.e., “wild branches that have been grafted in.” (You could look at Olive Tree Theology if you’re curious.)

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 23, no one in this thread has spoken as a proponent of Replacement Theology (by which I think you mean Hard Supersessionism), so why are you arguing against it in this thread? I thought your points were (A.) we should love the Jews (I agree) and (B.) God doesn’t go back on His promises (I agree). The only questions are: who is truly a Jew and what is spiritual Israel, and so, to whom do the promises apply?

    Even Messianic Jews don’t consider every single person who is genetically Jewish (literal Israel) to be spiritual Israel, but only (A.) every Messianic Jew – past, present, and future, i.e., “natural branches,” (B.) those Jews who at this moment reject Jesus Christ – but in whom God will create faith, i.e., “natural branches that have fallen off but will be grafted back in,” and (C.) Gentile believers, i.e., “wild branches that have been grafted in.” (You could look at Olive Tree Theology if you’re curious.)

  • Grace

    Tom,

    God made an “Everlasting Covenant” with Israel (Jews) that didn’t include Gentiles – see Genesis 17 and Ezekiel 37 –

    Messianic Jews understand fully that Jews are Israel, whether they are Believers in Christ or not. I have known many Jewish Christians, they don’t consider un-believing Jews to not be Israel, after all they are the descendents of Jacob.

    Gentiles don’t become Jews after they receive Salvation, they are grafted in, they are adopted, but they are not Israel – Jews don’t lose their Jewishness when they become Believers.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    God made an “Everlasting Covenant” with Israel (Jews) that didn’t include Gentiles – see Genesis 17 and Ezekiel 37 –

    Messianic Jews understand fully that Jews are Israel, whether they are Believers in Christ or not. I have known many Jewish Christians, they don’t consider un-believing Jews to not be Israel, after all they are the descendents of Jacob.

    Gentiles don’t become Jews after they receive Salvation, they are grafted in, they are adopted, but they are not Israel – Jews don’t lose their Jewishness when they become Believers.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    With all due respect it is insulting when you send me to wikipedia to understand “Replacement theology” or the difference between Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree, and those who are Israel.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    With all due respect it is insulting when you send me to wikipedia to understand “Replacement theology” or the difference between Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree, and those who are Israel.

  • Grace (@14), I’ve been trying to have a conversation with you on this thread, but you apparently have decided you don’t want to talk about some things anymore with me. And, if I may say so, you’ve done so fairly rudely. You’ve made very vague statements and apparently gotten upset when I didn’t understand exactly what you meant, even though you weren’t exact in your wording. Then you tell me that your vagueness was “sufficient”, in spite of the fact that it obviously failed to convey what you were trying to say to the people who were reading your words.

    You then tell me “I don’t have time to answer every single question you pose”, which is fairly ridiculous, since the question I posed was about the topic of this thread, and specifically asking you to explain your own comment. If you don’t want to have a discussion, maybe you shouldn’t be, you know, having a discussion here. Don’t get upset with me for asking you to explain yourself!

    “this isn’t a test tODD, it’s a blog – You aren’t the teacher, and I certainly am NOT YOUR STUDENT, LOL” What the heck, Grace? It’s a conversation. I don’t know what you’re reacting against, but you’re coming across extremely rude in your comment. We’ve had enough pleasant exchanges for me to know that you can be nice.

    If you don’t want to comment, just don’t. But I think your response to me was rude. I hope I’ve made that clear.

  • Grace (@14), I’ve been trying to have a conversation with you on this thread, but you apparently have decided you don’t want to talk about some things anymore with me. And, if I may say so, you’ve done so fairly rudely. You’ve made very vague statements and apparently gotten upset when I didn’t understand exactly what you meant, even though you weren’t exact in your wording. Then you tell me that your vagueness was “sufficient”, in spite of the fact that it obviously failed to convey what you were trying to say to the people who were reading your words.

    You then tell me “I don’t have time to answer every single question you pose”, which is fairly ridiculous, since the question I posed was about the topic of this thread, and specifically asking you to explain your own comment. If you don’t want to have a discussion, maybe you shouldn’t be, you know, having a discussion here. Don’t get upset with me for asking you to explain yourself!

    “this isn’t a test tODD, it’s a blog – You aren’t the teacher, and I certainly am NOT YOUR STUDENT, LOL” What the heck, Grace? It’s a conversation. I don’t know what you’re reacting against, but you’re coming across extremely rude in your comment. We’ve had enough pleasant exchanges for me to know that you can be nice.

    If you don’t want to comment, just don’t. But I think your response to me was rude. I hope I’ve made that clear.

  • Grace, I’ve said it before, but your reply (@26) really doesn’t square with Paul’s discussion of Israel in Romans.

    You said, “Messianic Jews understand fully that Jews are Israel, whether they are Believers in Christ or not.” But here’s what Paul has to say in Romans 9 (my emphasis):

    Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

    And though you say, “Gentiles don’t become Jews after they receive Salvation, they are grafted in, they are adopted, but they are not Israel,” yet Paul says in Galatians 6 (my emphasis):

    Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

    There are many, many more quotes I could give from Paul on this matter.

  • Grace, I’ve said it before, but your reply (@26) really doesn’t square with Paul’s discussion of Israel in Romans.

    You said, “Messianic Jews understand fully that Jews are Israel, whether they are Believers in Christ or not.” But here’s what Paul has to say in Romans 9 (my emphasis):

    Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

    And though you say, “Gentiles don’t become Jews after they receive Salvation, they are grafted in, they are adopted, but they are not Israel,” yet Paul says in Galatians 6 (my emphasis):

    Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

    There are many, many more quotes I could give from Paul on this matter.

  • Grace

    tODD

    I am not vague, nor rude…. although I understand why you would categorize me as you have, you’re rather transparent. Those type of attention tactics don’t work, at least not with me.

    I don’t play 20 questions, then answer…..and then go for 30 more in another post, because a guy like you has nothing better to do but quibble about every answer.

  • Grace

    tODD

    I am not vague, nor rude…. although I understand why you would categorize me as you have, you’re rather transparent. Those type of attention tactics don’t work, at least not with me.

    I don’t play 20 questions, then answer…..and then go for 30 more in another post, because a guy like you has nothing better to do but quibble about every answer.

  • Tom Hering

    “With all due respect it is insulting when you send me to wikipedia to understand ‘Replacement theology’ or the difference between Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree, and those who are Israel.”

    Grace, it wasn’t my intention to insult you. It’s common practice in discussions on Cranach to provide links to more material on a subject – so we all have more to discuss.

    How the hell am I supposed to know what you do or don’t already know?

  • Tom Hering

    “With all due respect it is insulting when you send me to wikipedia to understand ‘Replacement theology’ or the difference between Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree, and those who are Israel.”

    Grace, it wasn’t my intention to insult you. It’s common practice in discussions on Cranach to provide links to more material on a subject – so we all have more to discuss.

    How the hell am I supposed to know what you do or don’t already know?

  • Grace (@30), how can you possibly complain that you’re not “rude” and then go on to insult me (“a guy like you has nothing better to do but quibble about every answer”)? You were, once more, rude in your reply. This can’t be news to you.

    Is something going on in your life that’s troubling you?

    You’re being simultaneously sensitive to what others say and insensitive in what you say to others, and it’s not having a good effect, as should be obvious.

    We can disagree without being disagreeable. But I’m pointing out that you have been disagreeable to me for several comments now. Please stop.

  • Grace (@30), how can you possibly complain that you’re not “rude” and then go on to insult me (“a guy like you has nothing better to do but quibble about every answer”)? You were, once more, rude in your reply. This can’t be news to you.

    Is something going on in your life that’s troubling you?

    You’re being simultaneously sensitive to what others say and insensitive in what you say to others, and it’s not having a good effect, as should be obvious.

    We can disagree without being disagreeable. But I’m pointing out that you have been disagreeable to me for several comments now. Please stop.

  • Grace

    Tom – 31

    “Grace, it wasn’t my intention to insult you. It’s common practice in discussions on Cranach to provide links to more material on a subject – so we all have more to discuss.

    How the hell am I supposed to know what you do or don’t already know?”

    Links are find, however Tom, I would not consider Wikipedia a viable source when studying God’s Word.

  • Grace

    Tom – 31

    “Grace, it wasn’t my intention to insult you. It’s common practice in discussions on Cranach to provide links to more material on a subject – so we all have more to discuss.

    How the hell am I supposed to know what you do or don’t already know?”

    Links are find, however Tom, I would not consider Wikipedia a viable source when studying God’s Word.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, you’ve made the irrelevant response a form of art. I’m amused. 🙂

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, you’ve made the irrelevant response a form of art. I’m amused. 🙂

  • Grace

    Tom – 34

    The Bible is key, ….. Wikipedia isn’t relevant when studying the Word of God.

    As for relevancy, I seek the original rather than a poor attempt such as Wikipedia. Most universities do not accept them as to accuracy, that should give you a clue. Have you ever noticed what is often cited on their site:

    This article needs additional citations for verification.
    Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2009)

  • Grace

    Tom – 34

    The Bible is key, ….. Wikipedia isn’t relevant when studying the Word of God.

    As for relevancy, I seek the original rather than a poor attempt such as Wikipedia. Most universities do not accept them as to accuracy, that should give you a clue. Have you ever noticed what is often cited on their site:

    This article needs additional citations for verification.
    Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2009)

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, you’ve even managed to come up with an irrelevant response to my comment about your irrelevant responses! I’m more than amused. 🙂

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, you’ve even managed to come up with an irrelevant response to my comment about your irrelevant responses! I’m more than amused. 🙂

  • Grace (@33), you can have a discussion on the “viability” of Wikipedia articles if you want — though if you’re going to go down that route, it would make more sense to actually examine an article, how accurate it is, what sources it cites, and so on.
    You might also note that, strictly speaking, Tom was not offering a Wikipedia link to help you understand Scripture, but to help you understand one particular group’s understanding of Scripture. Wikipedia is not going to tell you whether that group is right to hold that opinion, but more often than not, they will give you a good summary of what that opinion is.

    But since you said, “I would not consider Wikipedia a viable source when studying God’s Word,” are you going to reply to the quotes from the Bible that I offered (@29) in contrast to your statements on the Jews?

    Or are you going to be offended again that I’m attempting to reply to things you’ve said? 😉

  • Grace (@33), you can have a discussion on the “viability” of Wikipedia articles if you want — though if you’re going to go down that route, it would make more sense to actually examine an article, how accurate it is, what sources it cites, and so on.
    You might also note that, strictly speaking, Tom was not offering a Wikipedia link to help you understand Scripture, but to help you understand one particular group’s understanding of Scripture. Wikipedia is not going to tell you whether that group is right to hold that opinion, but more often than not, they will give you a good summary of what that opinion is.

    But since you said, “I would not consider Wikipedia a viable source when studying God’s Word,” are you going to reply to the quotes from the Bible that I offered (@29) in contrast to your statements on the Jews?

    Or are you going to be offended again that I’m attempting to reply to things you’ve said? 😉

  • SKPeterson

    Grace – I was not cherry picking earlier. You specifically mentioned sexual promiscuity as a factor to consider amongst others. I would argue that the other factors are equally applicable to nations all over the world, yet we don’t seem to have a problem with Japanese sexual promiscuity in pursuing foreign relations with them. So what gives about Africa. It sounds awfully close to the blase sexual stereotyping of people with dark skin.

    As to Israel, are you suggesting that the modern nation of Israel is the same as the Israel of Paul? That only Jews are true Israelis? Or that only the true Israel is Jewish?

    An aside – interesting how a topic on African wars detours to defense of Israel. If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that’s as good a proof as any to underscore the undue influence of Israel on US foreign policy. 😉

  • SKPeterson

    Grace – I was not cherry picking earlier. You specifically mentioned sexual promiscuity as a factor to consider amongst others. I would argue that the other factors are equally applicable to nations all over the world, yet we don’t seem to have a problem with Japanese sexual promiscuity in pursuing foreign relations with them. So what gives about Africa. It sounds awfully close to the blase sexual stereotyping of people with dark skin.

    As to Israel, are you suggesting that the modern nation of Israel is the same as the Israel of Paul? That only Jews are true Israelis? Or that only the true Israel is Jewish?

    An aside – interesting how a topic on African wars detours to defense of Israel. If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that’s as good a proof as any to underscore the undue influence of Israel on US foreign policy. 😉

  • SKP@38 – that last remark of yours is very insightful!

  • SKP@38 – that last remark of yours is very insightful!

  • Grace

    38 SKPeterson

    “I was not cherry picking earlier. You specifically mentioned sexual promiscuity as a factor to consider amongst others. I would argue that the other factors are equally applicable to nations all over the world, yet we don’t seem to have a problem with Japanese sexual promiscuity in pursuing foreign relations with them. So what gives about Africa. It sounds awfully close to the blase sexual stereotyping of people with dark skin.”

    SKPeterson – if you are unable or unwilling to take what I stated in post 20 in answer to trotk’s question in #18, ‘cherry picking’ “sexual promiscuity” as your excuse, YOU have MISSED my point – – – – as well as, using the RACE CARD as an excuse,….. that won’t work, nor will throwing in the Japanese.

  • Grace

    38 SKPeterson

    “I was not cherry picking earlier. You specifically mentioned sexual promiscuity as a factor to consider amongst others. I would argue that the other factors are equally applicable to nations all over the world, yet we don’t seem to have a problem with Japanese sexual promiscuity in pursuing foreign relations with them. So what gives about Africa. It sounds awfully close to the blase sexual stereotyping of people with dark skin.”

    SKPeterson – if you are unable or unwilling to take what I stated in post 20 in answer to trotk’s question in #18, ‘cherry picking’ “sexual promiscuity” as your excuse, YOU have MISSED my point – – – – as well as, using the RACE CARD as an excuse,….. that won’t work, nor will throwing in the Japanese.

  • Grace

    38 SKPeterson “I was not cherry picking earlier.

    “An aside – interesting how a topic on African wars detours to defense of Israel. If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that’s as good a proof as any to underscore the undue influence of Israel on US foreign policy.”

    tODD asked a question directly to me in his post #8, which I then answered, that is how WW2, ie; Israel, became part of the conversation. Maybe if you had been following this thread, rather than “cherry picking” you would have understood.

    When Germany, following Hitler to gather the Jews, confiscate their property, put them in the ghetto’s and then ship them off to the camps, either working, or extermination of those who couldn’t – England stepped in and so did the United States, among many other countries. To top if off, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor 69 years ago tomorrow (December 7, 1941)

    Israel presents a burr in the saddle to a few people in this country, but we still support them, much to the chagrin of some of our citizens,….. the passages below should be a stern warning to any nation or people who try to harm Israel, the Jews and Jerusalem.

    ———God has judged harshly, those nations that have opposed or tried to plot against, or exterminate His people, …. that would include Assyria, Egypt, Rome, Babylon and the Third Reich of Nazi Germany – they were all brought low, at least in part because of their treatment of the chosen people of God, the Jews.
    In Genesis 12:3 God declares, “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curseth thee” – Contrary to Replacement Theology, the promises of God hold true today. It is an “everlasting covenant” God doesn’t break covenants. Genesis 17:7-8

    Below it is obvious that God has a very special place for His chosen people – He is not through with Israel/Jews –

    1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

    3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Zechariah 12

    8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    10
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12

    The last verse brings up another great passage of Scripture.

  • Grace

    38 SKPeterson “I was not cherry picking earlier.

    “An aside – interesting how a topic on African wars detours to defense of Israel. If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that’s as good a proof as any to underscore the undue influence of Israel on US foreign policy.”

    tODD asked a question directly to me in his post #8, which I then answered, that is how WW2, ie; Israel, became part of the conversation. Maybe if you had been following this thread, rather than “cherry picking” you would have understood.

    When Germany, following Hitler to gather the Jews, confiscate their property, put them in the ghetto’s and then ship them off to the camps, either working, or extermination of those who couldn’t – England stepped in and so did the United States, among many other countries. To top if off, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor 69 years ago tomorrow (December 7, 1941)

    Israel presents a burr in the saddle to a few people in this country, but we still support them, much to the chagrin of some of our citizens,….. the passages below should be a stern warning to any nation or people who try to harm Israel, the Jews and Jerusalem.

    ———God has judged harshly, those nations that have opposed or tried to plot against, or exterminate His people, …. that would include Assyria, Egypt, Rome, Babylon and the Third Reich of Nazi Germany – they were all brought low, at least in part because of their treatment of the chosen people of God, the Jews.
    In Genesis 12:3 God declares, “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curseth thee” – Contrary to Replacement Theology, the promises of God hold true today. It is an “everlasting covenant” God doesn’t break covenants. Genesis 17:7-8

    Below it is obvious that God has a very special place for His chosen people – He is not through with Israel/Jews –

    1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

    3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Zechariah 12

    8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    10
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12

    The last verse brings up another great passage of Scripture.

  • Grace (@41), it’s clear from your behavior here that you don’t want to actually have a conversation — at least, not if it involves defending your ideas and claims. At least, not with me. If you’re going to keep on bringing up new claims, while also ignoring when I (or others) challenge your earlier claims, I see no reason, for my part, to keep trying to have this conversation. It’s like whack-a-mole.

  • Grace (@41), it’s clear from your behavior here that you don’t want to actually have a conversation — at least, not if it involves defending your ideas and claims. At least, not with me. If you’re going to keep on bringing up new claims, while also ignoring when I (or others) challenge your earlier claims, I see no reason, for my part, to keep trying to have this conversation. It’s like whack-a-mole.

  • Grace

    I hope you enjoy your “whack-a-mole” and win a stuffed monkey!

  • Grace

    I hope you enjoy your “whack-a-mole” and win a stuffed monkey!

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, you’re not shy about stating your positions. You are, however, averse to answering questions about your positions. At least, you’re averse to answering the actual questions that others ask. Instead, you first change their questions, so you can answer them by repeating yourself, or by changing the subject – which you do a lot. Do you realize you do this?

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, you’re not shy about stating your positions. You are, however, averse to answering questions about your positions. At least, you’re averse to answering the actual questions that others ask. Instead, you first change their questions, so you can answer them by repeating yourself, or by changing the subject – which you do a lot. Do you realize you do this?

  • Grace

    Tom,

    No I don’t change the subject or the questions, ….

    I don’t answer questions over and over again UNTIL, the QUESTIONER, HAS RECEIVED the ANSWER THEY WANT TO HEAR. That has happened many times on this blog –

    There are a few who ask endless questions, …. it’s ‘busy work’ – I don’t play the game. You should know that.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    No I don’t change the subject or the questions, ….

    I don’t answer questions over and over again UNTIL, the QUESTIONER, HAS RECEIVED the ANSWER THEY WANT TO HEAR. That has happened many times on this blog –

    There are a few who ask endless questions, …. it’s ‘busy work’ – I don’t play the game. You should know that.

  • Grace

    I remember very well the endless questions, perhaps asked 3 dozen different ways by a few posters regarding “absolution” – After I answered the question several times, I stopped answering, …

    It can be compared to a child asking the same question over and over again, expecting to receive a different answer, that will most likely profit their end.

  • Grace

    I remember very well the endless questions, perhaps asked 3 dozen different ways by a few posters regarding “absolution” – After I answered the question several times, I stopped answering, …

    It can be compared to a child asking the same question over and over again, expecting to receive a different answer, that will most likely profit their end.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, why do you assume that those who ask you questions more than once have bad motives – are playing games? Isn’t it possible they don’t understand your answers (coming from a different denominational background), or that they feel you haven’t answered the actual questions they’ve asked?

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, why do you assume that those who ask you questions more than once have bad motives – are playing games? Isn’t it possible they don’t understand your answers (coming from a different denominational background), or that they feel you haven’t answered the actual questions they’ve asked?

  • Grace

    Tom

    My post #7 isn’t difficult to understand, I stated exactly what I believe to be true – however, tODD jumped all over it, (#8) choosing to ask more questions, which I answewed (#9) ….. it then became a game to see how many he could ask, (#10) and how many I would answer, it builds and builds. LOL And then he could claim it “didn’t make sense” (#10) which would require more answers…… LOL, and then there is #11 and so on and on ….

    Poor tODD didn’t get the answers he wanted, nor was he successful in wasting a great deal of time to entertain him.

  • Grace

    Tom

    My post #7 isn’t difficult to understand, I stated exactly what I believe to be true – however, tODD jumped all over it, (#8) choosing to ask more questions, which I answewed (#9) ….. it then became a game to see how many he could ask, (#10) and how many I would answer, it builds and builds. LOL And then he could claim it “didn’t make sense” (#10) which would require more answers…… LOL, and then there is #11 and so on and on ….

    Poor tODD didn’t get the answers he wanted, nor was he successful in wasting a great deal of time to entertain him.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, tODD is a busy man with a family. He doesn’t waste the time he has to spend on the internet trying – over and over again – to be entertained by you. Seriously. If he’s asking you questions, it’s because he either wants to continue a discussion that got sidetracked at some point, or because he wants you to see something you’re just not seeing. Which is not the same thing as trying to change your mind through indirect manipulation.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, tODD is a busy man with a family. He doesn’t waste the time he has to spend on the internet trying – over and over again – to be entertained by you. Seriously. If he’s asking you questions, it’s because he either wants to continue a discussion that got sidetracked at some point, or because he wants you to see something you’re just not seeing. Which is not the same thing as trying to change your mind through indirect manipulation.

  • Grace

    I don’t buy your answer Tom – this isn’t going anywhere, or haven’t you noticed? This is the same ole, persistent clamoring when some of you don’t get your way, wasting time on questions that have been answered….. however, not to your liking.

    We don’t agree, that’s it!!!!!!!!

  • Grace

    I don’t buy your answer Tom – this isn’t going anywhere, or haven’t you noticed? This is the same ole, persistent clamoring when some of you don’t get your way, wasting time on questions that have been answered….. however, not to your liking.

    We don’t agree, that’s it!!!!!!!!

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, discussions aren’t always about coming to an agreement. Sometimes they’re about, well, discussing. I ain’t kiddin’ ya.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, discussions aren’t always about coming to an agreement. Sometimes they’re about, well, discussing. I ain’t kiddin’ ya.

  • Grace

    Tom – if you’ve got the time to waste on this GO FOR IT, I don’t – it’s asinine

  • Grace

    Tom – if you’ve got the time to waste on this GO FOR IT, I don’t – it’s asinine

  • Grace (@52), with 21 comments on this thread alone, you’re not fooling anyone with claims that you don’t have time for an actual conversation. You certainly have enough time to be rude to me.

  • Grace (@52), with 21 comments on this thread alone, you’re not fooling anyone with claims that you don’t have time for an actual conversation. You certainly have enough time to be rude to me.

  • Tom Hering

    Oh come on, Grace. I know better. If past behavior is anything to go by, you’ll be back – repeatedly. 😉

  • Tom Hering

    Oh come on, Grace. I know better. If past behavior is anything to go by, you’ll be back – repeatedly. 😉

  • Tom Hering

    … four hours later …

    Of course, to prove me wrong, all you have to do is not come back.

  • Tom Hering

    … four hours later …

    Of course, to prove me wrong, all you have to do is not come back.

  • SKPeterson

    LOL, Tom. I came back, 12+ hours later.

    Grace, if I cherry-picked, I cherry-picked. It is just that citing sexual promiscuity as a rationale for not getting involved is rather peculiar and sticks out like a big branch full of cherries. It does beg the question I asked though. Why African sexual promiscuity – because of AIDS? What is your fear then, that our servicemen (and women) will go to Africa and be lured in by the sexual wiles of the natives and bring back a devastating AIDS epidemic to the U.S.?

    I’m also interested in the rationale for equating the modern state of Israel with the Israel of Scripture. I have no problems with the state of Israel, I just believe it should be held to the same standards as everyone else. I also think it gets to keep whatever territory it won in the 7 Days War. Israel is the only nation I know of recently that won a war it didn’t start and then is pressured to give back the territory it has gained as a result. Maybe once the Russians return the Kuriles, Karelia, and Koenigsberg, we can talk about the Israeli’s giving up Golan.

  • SKPeterson

    LOL, Tom. I came back, 12+ hours later.

    Grace, if I cherry-picked, I cherry-picked. It is just that citing sexual promiscuity as a rationale for not getting involved is rather peculiar and sticks out like a big branch full of cherries. It does beg the question I asked though. Why African sexual promiscuity – because of AIDS? What is your fear then, that our servicemen (and women) will go to Africa and be lured in by the sexual wiles of the natives and bring back a devastating AIDS epidemic to the U.S.?

    I’m also interested in the rationale for equating the modern state of Israel with the Israel of Scripture. I have no problems with the state of Israel, I just believe it should be held to the same standards as everyone else. I also think it gets to keep whatever territory it won in the 7 Days War. Israel is the only nation I know of recently that won a war it didn’t start and then is pressured to give back the territory it has gained as a result. Maybe once the Russians return the Kuriles, Karelia, and Koenigsberg, we can talk about the Israeli’s giving up Golan.

  • collie

    My little granddaughter is spending the day with me and we are listening to Christmas Carols.

    text: public domain

    *O Come, O Come, Emmanuel*

    O come, O come, Emmanuel,
    And ransom captive Israel,
    That mourns in lonely exile here
    Until the Son of God appear.

    Rejoice! Rejoice!
    Emmanuel
    Shall come to thee,
    O Israel!

    Grace, am I supposed to believe this Christmas carol is only for Jews?

  • collie

    My little granddaughter is spending the day with me and we are listening to Christmas Carols.

    text: public domain

    *O Come, O Come, Emmanuel*

    O come, O come, Emmanuel,
    And ransom captive Israel,
    That mourns in lonely exile here
    Until the Son of God appear.

    Rejoice! Rejoice!
    Emmanuel
    Shall come to thee,
    O Israel!

    Grace, am I supposed to believe this Christmas carol is only for Jews?

  • Grace

    Collie

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, am I supposed to believe this Christmas carol is only for Jews?”

    If you have read the Word of God you wouldn’t find it necessary to ask such a snide, unlearned question.

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    Romans 1:16

    I posted the link below days ago, it’s beautiful, maybe it will help soften your heart.

    Opera Company of Philadelphia “Hallelujah!” Random Act of Culture
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_RHnQ-jgU&feature=player_embedded

    The Word of God is very clear, it was prophecied in Isaiah 53 and other places as to how the LORD Jesus would be treated. Jesus knew, as He is God’s Son, Deity!

  • Grace

    Collie

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, am I supposed to believe this Christmas carol is only for Jews?”

    If you have read the Word of God you wouldn’t find it necessary to ask such a snide, unlearned question.

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    Romans 1:16

    I posted the link below days ago, it’s beautiful, maybe it will help soften your heart.

    Opera Company of Philadelphia “Hallelujah!” Random Act of Culture
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_RHnQ-jgU&feature=player_embedded

    The Word of God is very clear, it was prophecied in Isaiah 53 and other places as to how the LORD Jesus would be treated. Jesus knew, as He is God’s Son, Deity!

  • Grace

    Collie – here is the PROPHECY recorded in Isaiah 53

    1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53

  • Grace

    Collie – here is the PROPHECY recorded in Isaiah 53

    1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53

  • collie

    Grace, I am simply wondering how you decide when “Israel” means either 1: old testament believers 2: new testament Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah 3: the current political state of Israel or 4: anyone who claims a genetic link to the Hebrews pre-incarnate Christ.

  • collie

    Grace, I am simply wondering how you decide when “Israel” means either 1: old testament believers 2: new testament Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah 3: the current political state of Israel or 4: anyone who claims a genetic link to the Hebrews pre-incarnate Christ.

  • collie

    or, does Israel mean all believers, of all time, who accept Jesus as their Messiah? Jews and Gentiles.

  • collie

    or, does Israel mean all believers, of all time, who accept Jesus as their Messiah? Jews and Gentiles.

  • Grace

    Collie-

    I think its time for you to do some study – The snide question you asked in post 57:

    “Grace, am I supposed to believe this Christmas carol is only for Jews?”

    was uncalled for. If this is how you listen to Christmas hymns, thinking about how you can come back to this blog to provoke and bait, …… I feel sorry for you.

  • Grace

    Collie-

    I think its time for you to do some study – The snide question you asked in post 57:

    “Grace, am I supposed to believe this Christmas carol is only for Jews?”

    was uncalled for. If this is how you listen to Christmas hymns, thinking about how you can come back to this blog to provoke and bait, …… I feel sorry for you.

  • collie

    Grace, to use one of your phrases, we just disagree. I believe that a lot of the o.t. passages you quote not only refer to the believers at the time the scripture was written but also refer to all believers, even those not born, who will become believers in Christ. In essence, I believe “Israel” is something more and different than ones’ genes or ones’ religion or the country of residence. In a broad sense, the term includes all believers in Jesus. If it was simply genetics, why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that they should not rely on their connection to Abraham as their father as Jesus could easily raise up believers out of stones? Matt. 3:9

  • collie

    Grace, to use one of your phrases, we just disagree. I believe that a lot of the o.t. passages you quote not only refer to the believers at the time the scripture was written but also refer to all believers, even those not born, who will become believers in Christ. In essence, I believe “Israel” is something more and different than ones’ genes or ones’ religion or the country of residence. In a broad sense, the term includes all believers in Jesus. If it was simply genetics, why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that they should not rely on their connection to Abraham as their father as Jesus could easily raise up believers out of stones? Matt. 3:9

  • Grace

    YOU WROTE: “My little granddaughter is spending the day with me and we are listening to Christmas Carols”

    Collie, enjoy your granddaughter, if you do, you won’t have time to come on the blog to fuss and argue – you will be enjoying the little one God has given you to care for today – your mind won’t be on baiting and arguments.

  • Grace

    YOU WROTE: “My little granddaughter is spending the day with me and we are listening to Christmas Carols”

    Collie, enjoy your granddaughter, if you do, you won’t have time to come on the blog to fuss and argue – you will be enjoying the little one God has given you to care for today – your mind won’t be on baiting and arguments.

  • collie

    Grace, I really don’t care what you think of my babysitting/grandmother skills, so fire away and just ignore the questions posed to you.

  • collie

    Grace, I really don’t care what you think of my babysitting/grandmother skills, so fire away and just ignore the questions posed to you.

  • Grace

    With PLEASURE!

  • Grace

    With PLEASURE!

  • Grace, I’ve noticed that when the topic turns to the Jews (frequently, this is your own doing), you get defensive, to say the least. To say a bit more, you get rude and abusive. And you refuse to clarify or defend your ideas.

    “a guy like you has nothing better to do but quibble about every answer” (@30)
    “I don’t answer questions over and over again UNTIL, the QUESTIONER, HAS RECEIVED the ANSWER THEY WANT TO HEAR. … it’s ‘busy work’ – I don’t play the game.” (@45)
    “It can be compared to a child asking the same question over and over again, expecting to receive a different answer, that will most likely profit their end.” (@46)
    “Poor tODD didn’t get the answers he wanted, nor was he successful in wasting a great deal of time to entertain him.” (@48)
    “This is the same ole, persistent clamoring when some of you don’t get your way, wasting time on questions that have been answered….. however, not to your liking.” (@50)
    “if you’ve got the time to waste on this GO FOR IT, I don’t – it’s asinine” (@52)
    “If you have read the Word of God you wouldn’t find it necessary to ask such a snide, unlearned question.” (@58)
    “I think its time for you to do some study – The snide question you asked” (@62)
    “your mind won’t be on baiting and arguments.” (@64)

    Do you really think the above quotes are good examples of good discussion, to say nothing of Christian attitude?

    If you don’t want to engage in discussion, then please stop commenting, and allow those of us who do want to have a conversation (which will include the challenging of ideas) to continue in peace, without your insulting us.

    Which isn’t to say I want you to leave — I don’t, because I know that you are capable of being very pleasant and holding up your end of a loving conversation. But I know that from other threads, not this one.

  • Grace, I’ve noticed that when the topic turns to the Jews (frequently, this is your own doing), you get defensive, to say the least. To say a bit more, you get rude and abusive. And you refuse to clarify or defend your ideas.

    “a guy like you has nothing better to do but quibble about every answer” (@30)
    “I don’t answer questions over and over again UNTIL, the QUESTIONER, HAS RECEIVED the ANSWER THEY WANT TO HEAR. … it’s ‘busy work’ – I don’t play the game.” (@45)
    “It can be compared to a child asking the same question over and over again, expecting to receive a different answer, that will most likely profit their end.” (@46)
    “Poor tODD didn’t get the answers he wanted, nor was he successful in wasting a great deal of time to entertain him.” (@48)
    “This is the same ole, persistent clamoring when some of you don’t get your way, wasting time on questions that have been answered….. however, not to your liking.” (@50)
    “if you’ve got the time to waste on this GO FOR IT, I don’t – it’s asinine” (@52)
    “If you have read the Word of God you wouldn’t find it necessary to ask such a snide, unlearned question.” (@58)
    “I think its time for you to do some study – The snide question you asked” (@62)
    “your mind won’t be on baiting and arguments.” (@64)

    Do you really think the above quotes are good examples of good discussion, to say nothing of Christian attitude?

    If you don’t want to engage in discussion, then please stop commenting, and allow those of us who do want to have a conversation (which will include the challenging of ideas) to continue in peace, without your insulting us.

    Which isn’t to say I want you to leave — I don’t, because I know that you are capable of being very pleasant and holding up your end of a loving conversation. But I know that from other threads, not this one.

  • Grace

    tODD, it should come as no surprise to you, that there are a few people to whom I don’t respond, ….. baiting, argumentative behavior, for the sake of arguing isn’t a good use of my time.

    Your time can be spent, finding SNIPPETS and morsels to bait, LOL!

  • Grace

    tODD, it should come as no surprise to you, that there are a few people to whom I don’t respond, ….. baiting, argumentative behavior, for the sake of arguing isn’t a good use of my time.

    Your time can be spent, finding SNIPPETS and morsels to bait, LOL!

  • Tom Hering

    Prophecy fulfilled. Looks look I won’t be stoned to death after all. Whew! 🙂

  • Tom Hering

    Prophecy fulfilled. Looks look I won’t be stoned to death after all. Whew! 🙂

  • Tom Hering

    Or, looks “like.”

  • Tom Hering

    Or, looks “like.”

  • Sigh … Grace (@68). Do you really think yours is loving behavior? Is this not something you’re going to repent of later? Frankly, it should be. I know you know what it’s like to feel loved in a conversation. And I can’t imagine that you don’t realize you’ve done the opposite of that, repeatedly, in this thread.

    And you can complain about not having the time to reply or whatever — in fact, you’ve already had enough time to complain about that multiple times among your 27 (and counting) comments that you’ve left on this thread. But the existence of all those comments sort of belies your claim in a glaring way.

    If you’d spent all the time that you’ve spent commenting on this thread being rude, accusing others, and complaining about not having enough time … if you’d spent all that time actually defending your ideas and replying to people, we wouldn’t even be having this meta-discussion.

    It looks like you’ve chosen to return to the behavior that earned you so much infamy when you first showed up. I find that sad. Because we had some nice conversations after you stopped doing that.

    I’ll just note — and I’m pretty certain I can say this on behalf of most people here — that we forgive you for behaving like you have in this thread, and if and when you choose to engage in civil conversation, we’d welcome your additions.

    But make no mistake about it, you’re behaving unlovingly. And that’s a sin.

  • Sigh … Grace (@68). Do you really think yours is loving behavior? Is this not something you’re going to repent of later? Frankly, it should be. I know you know what it’s like to feel loved in a conversation. And I can’t imagine that you don’t realize you’ve done the opposite of that, repeatedly, in this thread.

    And you can complain about not having the time to reply or whatever — in fact, you’ve already had enough time to complain about that multiple times among your 27 (and counting) comments that you’ve left on this thread. But the existence of all those comments sort of belies your claim in a glaring way.

    If you’d spent all the time that you’ve spent commenting on this thread being rude, accusing others, and complaining about not having enough time … if you’d spent all that time actually defending your ideas and replying to people, we wouldn’t even be having this meta-discussion.

    It looks like you’ve chosen to return to the behavior that earned you so much infamy when you first showed up. I find that sad. Because we had some nice conversations after you stopped doing that.

    I’ll just note — and I’m pretty certain I can say this on behalf of most people here — that we forgive you for behaving like you have in this thread, and if and when you choose to engage in civil conversation, we’d welcome your additions.

    But make no mistake about it, you’re behaving unlovingly. And that’s a sin.

  • Grace

    tODD – 71

    “I’ll just note — and I’m pretty certain I can say this on behalf of most people here — that we forgive you for behaving like you have in this thread, and if and when you choose to engage in civil conversation, we’d welcome your additions.

    But make no mistake about it, you’re behaving unlovingly. And that’s a sin.”

    Poor you, when you can’t get your way, or when I choose not to acquiesce to your “SNIPPETS, and all other complaints, questions asked 15 different ways, expecting a different response – and until that response is reached, ….. wellllll, the questions continue, and then I’m accused of sinning!

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. Matthew 7

  • Grace

    tODD – 71

    “I’ll just note — and I’m pretty certain I can say this on behalf of most people here — that we forgive you for behaving like you have in this thread, and if and when you choose to engage in civil conversation, we’d welcome your additions.

    But make no mistake about it, you’re behaving unlovingly. And that’s a sin.”

    Poor you, when you can’t get your way, or when I choose not to acquiesce to your “SNIPPETS, and all other complaints, questions asked 15 different ways, expecting a different response – and until that response is reached, ….. wellllll, the questions continue, and then I’m accused of sinning!

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. Matthew 7

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, are you too good to be asked the same question fifteen different ways? You very obviously have time to answer a question fifteen different ways.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, are you too good to be asked the same question fifteen different ways? You very obviously have time to answer a question fifteen different ways.

  • Grace

    Tom – 73

    No I don’t have time – I do research work, and check on the blog when I have time. Answering anyone 15 times, until they get what they consider the correct answer is childish on their part !!!!!

  • Grace

    Tom – 73

    No I don’t have time – I do research work, and check on the blog when I have time. Answering anyone 15 times, until they get what they consider the correct answer is childish on their part !!!!!

  • See, Grace (@72)? More of the same.

    Are you really going to deny that you’re being unloving? Because I don’t think you’re that foolish. Or that anyone could deceive themselves that much.

    Yes, I also behave unlovingly. If you want to point that out, you can — and should. God willing, when my sins are pointed out to me, I will not rudely snipe back “Poor you” and merely try to call attention to someone else’s sins. Because that’s obviously not how Christians should act.

    What do you think you’re accomplishing here, Grace? Are you acting out of love? Do you really think you’re not sinning? Or do you just not want to talk about your unloving attitude?

    “No I don’t have time” (@74). But you have all the time in the world to repeatedly write comments on a blog complaining about how much time you don’t have. In short, you have time to talk about what you want to talk about.

    I guess you just don’t have enough time to engage in conversation. Or to be nice to me (or others).

    Jesus died for those sins as well, Grace.

  • See, Grace (@72)? More of the same.

    Are you really going to deny that you’re being unloving? Because I don’t think you’re that foolish. Or that anyone could deceive themselves that much.

    Yes, I also behave unlovingly. If you want to point that out, you can — and should. God willing, when my sins are pointed out to me, I will not rudely snipe back “Poor you” and merely try to call attention to someone else’s sins. Because that’s obviously not how Christians should act.

    What do you think you’re accomplishing here, Grace? Are you acting out of love? Do you really think you’re not sinning? Or do you just not want to talk about your unloving attitude?

    “No I don’t have time” (@74). But you have all the time in the world to repeatedly write comments on a blog complaining about how much time you don’t have. In short, you have time to talk about what you want to talk about.

    I guess you just don’t have enough time to engage in conversation. Or to be nice to me (or others).

    Jesus died for those sins as well, Grace.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 74, this is something you’ve said quite a number of times, on this and other threads: that people ask you questions in order to get you to answer them in the way they want. Grace, that’s a very strange interpretation of other peoples’ motives.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 74, this is something you’ve said quite a number of times, on this and other threads: that people ask you questions in order to get you to answer them in the way they want. Grace, that’s a very strange interpretation of other peoples’ motives.