10 reasons to be afraid of atheists

atheists under the bed cartoon by nakedpastor david hayward

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Here are ten reasons to be afraid of atheists:

  1. There are some pretty nasty atheists that even seem dangerous. I don’t know any personally, but I have met some online that I’m glad are at arm’s length.
  2. There are some atheists who are just rude and won’t respect but attack your beliefs or rationale, which can make conversing with them very uncomfortable and confrontational.
  3. There are some atheists who, because they are atheists, are by your standards going to Hell and are therefore, by your standards, children of the devil, which can make for a rather unsettling meeting.
  4. There are some atheists out there who would challenge your beliefs and question your assumptions, even respectfully, which can make for a very difficult conversation.
  5. There are some atheists who, just because they are atheists, will make you feel uncomfortable about your own belief system and perhaps even cause you to question it.
  6. There are some atheists who are actually good people and because of this will really complicate your tidy categories of who’s in and who’s out.
  7. There are some atheists who will respect your rationale but who will not recant on theirs, which will cause a critical cognitive dissonance concerning your own categories.
  8. There are some atheists who, because of their quality of intelligence and character, will upset your faith and make you wonder why your God should punish such a person.
  9. There are some atheists who actually appreciate and even practice religious rituals but without the attending beliefs commonly associated with them, which will confuse your religious sensitivities and boundaries.
  10. There are some atheists who insist that you cannot know with certainty that there is a God and sometimes you actually feel this to be true, making them honest and perhaps even right, which will confound your definition of belief and faith and doubt and how they fit into your ideas about salvation.

I know atheists in every one of the above categories. Heck, sometimes I’m in one of all of them myself.

But other than that there’s really nothing to be afraid of.

About David Hayward

David Hayward runs the blog nakedpastor as a graffiti artist on the walls of religion where he critiques religion… specifically Christianity and the church. He also runs the online community The Lasting Supper where people can help themselves discover, explore and live in spiritual freedom.

  • klhayes

    Good list. Unfortunately some Christians would not be able to get past number three b/c they fear their beliefs being challenged and to maintain the idea that atheists must be bad b/c they don’t believe in God.

  • ragingrev

    Amen David. I know some 1′s and 2′s…but they are rare, and I believe most of them eventually grow out it.

  • the other David Hayward

    “#3: There are some atheists who, because they are atheists, are by your standards going to Hell and are therefore, by your standards, children of the devil, which can make for a rather unsettling meeting.”
    Isn’t this the average feeling of the standard Tea Party Congressmen?

  • http://www.facebook.com/rusty.yates.7 Rusty Yates

    Atheists are so bad they laugh at Satan.

  • Aviatrix

    For 1 and 2 you can also substitute “Christians” or “people” for “atheists”.

    And for 3 – 8 you could substitute “Buddhists” or “Muslims” or any belief system that is different than the person’s own, with the same effect.

    Fear of difference – and of being “contaminated” by that difference – is an all too human trait, but it is one to overcome and outgrow if life is to be lived fully.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    There are some atheists who help me renew my faith, because no matter how smart, nice, and happy they are, my gut reaction (I literally feel it,) is to feel sorry for them. That’s what brought me to this site tonight; I needed to pump up the Christianity.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    There is also the catch-all reason. There are some atheists, who by their mere existence, even though you may have never met them, remind you of what you were taught that all atheists are bad, morally degenerate people that should be ostracized, belittled, and kept out of organizations like the Boy Scouts of America.

    P.S. I’m an assistant scoutmaster in my son’s troop but I have to keep my lack of belief secret so we won’t get kicked out.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Yeah…if only we could all be like the atheist. I don’t know what Christians you hang around but that list is ridiculous. You think Christians worry about atheists? The ones I know don’t. I definitely don’t. My faith will be upset “because of their quality of intelligence and character”? lol. Or be “uncomfortable” when they attack my beliefs? Let’s go…… attack-away! I’ve been a Christian for about 17 years…….I don’t know if I ever seen Christians fret over an atheist. Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists. The only thing we do care about is militant atheism’s influence in our schools and our culture. We’ll fight that. Because atheism is wrong, it’s on the wrong side of most arguments (evolution for example) and can be a scourge on society. Leading people down a dead end.

  • Adam Julians

    Dont be afriad – trust in the Lord and his mighty power. Put on the armour of God.

    The way to eliminate the darkness is to turn on the light.

  • Gary

    How about militant Christianity and the horrible influence that has had on society? I have been a Christian for over 40 years, and I am far more troubled by the militant Christians. Those are the one’s who fight to change our nation’s history of religious freedom into a nation which supports and promotes THEIR religion. They are the ones who dogmatically declare another belief is simply “wrong” and “can be a scourge on society”. These are the ones who seek to deny BASIC science (without ANY qualifications or understanding) and teach our children falsehoods, thereby totally handicapping their ability to intellectually grow and understand the world around them. Those are the one’s who seek to devalue a group of people for an intrinsic characteristic which harms no-one else, such as their race, gender, or sexual orientation (bigotry). Those are the ones who have totally lost the heart of the gospel of love, and replaced it with a campaign of direct confrontation with the world, seeking to engage in “sin” management rather than caring for others as Jesus commanded.

    Atheists are not my problem. My problem are believers who have traded in the core values of their faith for an empty and heartless religion that is powerless to bring about anything positive, but is very capable of completely destroying people’s lives.

  • clarkbp

    “Lighten up, Francis.” – Sgt. Hulka (aka Big Toe)

  • Brudder

    “Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists.”

    Why? What is it about Muslims that worries you so much?

  • Matt McDowall

    wow Woodstock….that is really pathetic and no doubt a sly passive aggressiveness…which you really only find in religious zealots like yourself.

    I imagine Muslims look at you and feel the same way yeah? They feel sorry for you…its their gut reaction right? How nice of them to feel sorry for you..

    Actually statistically speaking – Christians are only 35% of the world populations…I suppose the remaining 65% would look at you and feel sorry…its their gut reaction right?

    Wow – how nice is it to have a society or groups who show pity – a pity based on zero evidence…

    But I suppose your are too naive, uneducated and dishonest to actually to know this..

  • Guest

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get based that compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? hats right…you were born into a western country….is the logic troubling you yet?

  • Guest

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two shits about Christianity…is the logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% ain’t Christian too right?

  • Matt McDowall

    Well you can be an atheist Dennis!….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a
    western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two
    shits about Christianity…You would be typing the same ridiculous, unintelligent diatribe but probably saying Allah is great and Mohammed.

    Is this logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% of the world ain’t Christian too right? and the 35% really only got their by pure cohesion, violence and suppression of the early churches…

  • Matt McDowall

    hell yeahs!!!

    He forgot that we eat babies!

  • Matt McDowall

    God is purely an imaginary friend for an adult.

    Same as when you were a kid…like Santa

    except instead of your parents telling you about Santa…its churches telling you about Mr. God.

    How nice,

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    I may disagree with Muslims, Wiccans, Jews, Buddhists, etc. but I don’t feel sorry for them. They have faith and a sense that there is something more than themselves and this world. I hope they feel the same way about me. They have a purpose in life besides looking sophisticated and raining on believers’ parades.

    And I do not presume to say who is going to Hell. That is God’s job.

    Have a blessed day.

  • Matt McDowall

    Oh so your hatred really goes against people wanting to see evidence for a deity and not an poor excuse and irrational reason such as faith…oh ok – yet again it shows your true colors!

    Secondly you make another astonishing, rude and unjustified statement saying people who don’t belief in a god have no purpose…Excuse me, I have plenty of purpose for my life. I don’t need to be scared into worshiping a diety and being a slave to have purpose…

    Your last statement says it all about your brainwashed belief…So you think it is OK for your God to send people to hell for not believing in him? you know the 65% of the world…..YOU think is is perfectly fine by YOUR own God to do this?!?!

    Can’t you think for yourself?! Thats like saying…its ok for a father to beat his kid (forever) because the kid diagrees with him….

    Your F%&*king sick and twisted….And if your God is true….and does this….he is a hideous monster!!

    Bless all you want. Try to think a bit more instead of being a slave.

  • Gary

    Damn if you don’t give people of faith a bad name. I believe in God…but I abhor obnoxious condescending Christians.

    Sigh…

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    I may be giving believers a bad name, but there are millions who don’t and they have a lot to offer, even if I don’t.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    Yes, it is nice, except God isn’t imaginary.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    You go, Adam!

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    The God you describe is not mine. I think He decides not to send people to Hell. I’m sure I don’t need to go into the doctrine.
    I just wanted to make it clear that I didn’t think I had any right to make that kind of judgment about other people, but I guess it didn’t come out right.

  • Adam Julians

    :)

  • Adam Julians

    Hey Gary,

    I understand that Churchlady mat have come across as obnoxious and condescending by saying she feels sorry for different folks.

    But I don’t see how she gives people of faith a bad name after one, (perhaps misguided) comment..

    What I think she might be wanting to communicate albeit not in the best way, was that she would hope that others coulfd have the same fullness in life that she has with being a follower of Jesus. And be bearing in mind the scene where Jesus wept over Jerusalem gently and, lovingly longing to gather the people together as a mother hen, and feeling the hurt of rejection instead, just as thoce in the city had stoned and rejected the prophets that came befroe him.

    I genuianly am interested (and this is no criticism of your comment), why such an extreme reaction with abhorration and labelling to her comment?

  • Adam Julians

    Are you OK?

  • Adam Julians

    true and good points.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

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    Rusty Yates • a day ago

    Atheists are so bad they laugh at Satan.

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    Matt McDowall > Rusty Yates • 14 hours ago

    hell yeahs!!!

    He forgot that we eat babies!

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    the other David Hayward • a day ago

    “#3: There are some atheists who, because they are atheists, are by your standards going to Hell and are therefore, by your standards, children of the devil, which can make for a rather unsettling meeting.”
    Isn’t this the average feeling of the standard Tea Party Congressmen?

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    ragingrev • a day ago

    Amen David. I know some 1′s and 2′s…but they are rare, and I believe most of them eventually grow out it.

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    klhayes • a day ago

    Good list. Unfortunately some Christians would not be able to get past number three b/c they fear their beliefs being challenged and to maintain the idea that atheists must be bad b/c they don’t believe in God.

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    Dennis Irwin • a day ago

    Yeah…if only we could all be like the atheist. I don’t know what Christians you hang around but that list is ridiculous. You think Christians worry about atheists? The ones I know don’t. I definitely don’t. My faith will be upset “because of their quality of intelligence and character”? lol. Or be “uncomfortable” when they attack my beliefs? Let’s go…… attack-away! I’ve been a Christian for about 17 years…….I don’t know if I ever seen Christians fret over an atheist. Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists. The only thing we do care about is militant atheism’s influence in our schools and our culture. We’ll fight that. Because atheism is wrong, it’s on the wrong side of most arguments (evolution for example) and can be a scourge on society. Leading people down a dead end.

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    Gary > Dennis Irwin • 19 hours ago

    How about militant Christianity and the horrible influence that has had on society? I have been a Christian for over 40 years, and I am far more troubled by the militant Christians. Those are the one’s who fight to change our nation’s history of religious freedom into a nation which supports and promotes THEIR religion. They are the ones who dogmatically declare another belief is simply “wrong” and “can be a scourge on society”. These are the ones who seek to deny BASIC science (without ANY qualifications or understanding) and teach our children falsehoods, thereby totally handicapping their ability to intellectually grow and understand the world around them. Those are the one’s who seek to devalue a group of people for an intrinsic characteristic which harms no-one else, such as their race, gender, or sexual orientation (bigotry). Those are the ones who have totally lost the heart of the gospel of love, and replaced it with a campaign of direct confrontation with the world, seeking to engage in “sin” management rather than caring for others as Jesus commanded.

    Atheists are not my problem. My problem are believers who have traded in the core values of their faith for an empty and heartless religion that is powerless to bring about anything positive, but is very capable of completely destroying people’s lives.

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    Brudder > Dennis Irwin • 16 hours ago

    “Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists.”

    Why? What is it about Muslims that worries you so much?

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    Matt McDowall > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    Well you can be an atheist Dennis!….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a
    western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two
    shits about Christianity…You would be typing the same ridiculous, unintelligent diatribe but probably saying Allah is great and Mohammed.

    Is this logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% of the world ain’t Christian too right? and the 35% really only got their by pure cohesion, violence and suppression of the early churches…

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    Guest > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two shits about Christianity…is the logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% ain’t Christian too right?

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    Guest > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get based that compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? hats right…you were born into a western country….is the logic troubling you yet?

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    Matt McDowall • 14 hours ago

    God is purely an imaginary friend for an adult.

    Same as when you were a kid…like Santa

    except instead of your parents telling you about Santa…its churches telling you about Mr. God.

    How nice,

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 5 hours ago

    Yes, it is nice, except God isn’t imaginary.

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    Adam Julians • a day ago

    Dont be afriad – trust in the Lord and his mighty power. Put on the armour of God.

    The way to eliminate the darkness is to turn on the light.

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Adam Julians • 5 hours ago

    You go, Adam!

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    Adam Julians > Woodstock Churchlady • 41 minutes ago

    :)

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    clarkbp > Adam Julians • 18 hours ago

    “Lighten up, Francis.” – Sgt. Hulka (aka Big Toe)

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    Woodstock Churchlady • a day ago

    There are some atheists who help me renew my faith, because no matter how smart, nice, and happy they are, my gut reaction (I literally feel it,) is to feel sorry for them. That’s what brought me to this site tonight; I needed to pump up the Christianity.

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    Matt McDowall > Woodstock Churchlady • 14 hours ago

    wow Woodstock….that is really pathetic and no doubt a sly passive aggressiveness…which you really only find in religious zealots like yourself.

    I imagine Muslims look at you and feel the same way yeah? They feel sorry for you…its their gut reaction right? How nice of them to feel sorry for you..

    Actually statistically speaking – Christians are only 35% of the world populations…I suppose the remaining 65% would look at you and feel sorry…its their gut reaction right?

    Wow – how nice is it to have a society or groups who show pity – a pity based on zero evidence…

    But I suppose your are too naive, uneducated and dishonest to actually to know this..

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 12 hours ago

    I may disagree with Muslims, Wiccans, Jews, Buddhists, etc. but I don’t feel sorry for them. They have faith and a sense that there is something more than themselves and this world. I hope they feel the same way about me. They have a purpose in life besides looking sophisticated and raining on believers’ parades.

    And I do not presume to say who is going to Hell. That is God’s job.

    Have a blessed day.

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    Gary > Woodstock Churchlady • 8 hours ago

    Damn if you don’t give people of faith a bad name. I believe in God…but I abhor obnoxious condescending Christians.

    Sigh…

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    Adam Julians > Gary • 17 minutes ago

    Hey Gary,

    I understand that Churchlady mat have come across as obnoxious and condescending by saying she feels sorry for different folks.

    But I don’t see how she gives people of faith a bad name after one, (perhaps misguided) comment..

    What I think she might be wanting to communicate albeit not in the best way, was that she would hope that others coulfd have the same fullness in life that she has with being a follower of Jesus. And be bearing in mind the scene where Jesus wept over Jerusalem gently and, lovingly longing to gather the people together as a mother hen, and feeling the hurt of rejection instead, just as thoce in the city had stoned and rejected the prophets that came befroe him.

    I genuianly am interested (and this is no criticism of your comment), why such an extreme reaction with abhorration and labelling to her comment?

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Gary • 6 hours ago

    I may be giving believers a bad name, but there are millions who don’t and they have a lot to offer, even if I don’t.

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    Matt McDowall > Woodstock Churchlady • 12 hours ago

    Oh so your hatred really goes against people wanting to see evidence for a deity and not an poor excuse and irrational reason such as faith…oh ok – yet again it shows your true colors!

    Secondly you make another astonishing, rude and unjustified statement saying people who don’t belief in a god have no purpose…Excuse me, I have plenty of purpose for my life. I don’t need to be scared into worshiping a diety and being a slave to have purpose…

    Your last statement says it all about your brainwashed belief…So you think it is OK for your God to send people to hell for not believing in him? you know the 65% of the world…..YOU think is is perfectly fine by YOUR own God to do this?!?!

    Can’t you think for yourself?! Thats like saying…its ok for a father to beat his kid (forever) because the kid diagrees with him….

    Your F%&*king sick and twisted….And if your God is true….and does this….he is a hideous monster!!

    Bless all you want. Try to think a bit more instead of being a slave.

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 5 hours ago

    The God you describe is not mine. I think He decides not to send people to Hell. I’m sure I don’t need to go into the doctrine.
    I just wanted to make it clear that I didn’t think I had to right to make that kind of judgment about other people, but I guess it didn’t come out right.

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    Adam Julians > Woodstock Churchlady • 15 minutes ago

    Are you OK?

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Adam Julians • 3 minutes ago −

    Yes, I’m fine. My reaction to an atheist’s (I believe it was a Unitarian minister,) in a Unitarian Magazine that “she could not believe in anything thing that could not be proven” was what started on me on journey back to Christianity. My first thought was “My God (significant word choice), that’s so sad.”

    As a rather reserved WASP, I trust my emotional reactions,

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    Rusty Yates • a day ago

    Atheists are so bad they laugh at Satan.

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    Matt McDowall > Rusty Yates • 14 hours ago

    hell yeahs!!!

    He forgot that we eat babies!

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    the other David Hayward • a day ago

    “#3: There are some atheists who, because they are atheists, are by your standards going to Hell and are therefore, by your standards, children of the devil, which can make for a rather unsettling meeting.”
    Isn’t this the average feeling of the standard Tea Party Congressmen?

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    ragingrev • a day ago

    Amen David. I know some 1′s and 2′s…but they are rare, and I believe most of them eventually grow out it.

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    klhayes • a day ago

    Good list. Unfortunately some Christians would not be able to get past number three b/c they fear their beliefs being challenged and to maintain the idea that atheists must be bad b/c they don’t believe in God.

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    Dennis Irwin • a day ago

    Yeah…if only we could all be like the atheist. I don’t know what Christians you hang around but that list is ridiculous. You think Christians worry about atheists? The ones I know don’t. I definitely don’t. My faith will be upset “because of their quality of intelligence and character”? lol. Or be “uncomfortable” when they attack my beliefs? Let’s go…… attack-away! I’ve been a Christian for about 17 years…….I don’t know if I ever seen Christians fret over an atheist. Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists. The only thing we do care about is militant atheism’s influence in our schools and our culture. We’ll fight that. Because atheism is wrong, it’s on the wrong side of most arguments (evolution for example) and can be a scourge on society. Leading people down a dead end.

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    Gary > Dennis Irwin • 19 hours ago

    How about militant Christianity and the horrible influence that has had on society? I have been a Christian for over 40 years, and I am far more troubled by the militant Christians. Those are the one’s who fight to change our nation’s history of religious freedom into a nation which supports and promotes THEIR religion. They are the ones who dogmatically declare another belief is simply “wrong” and “can be a scourge on society”. These are the ones who seek to deny BASIC science (without ANY qualifications or understanding) and teach our children falsehoods, thereby totally handicapping their ability to intellectually grow and understand the world around them. Those are the one’s who seek to devalue a group of people for an intrinsic characteristic which harms no-one else, such as their race, gender, or sexual orientation (bigotry). Those are the ones who have totally lost the heart of the gospel of love, and replaced it with a campaign of direct confrontation with the world, seeking to engage in “sin” management rather than caring for others as Jesus commanded.

    Atheists are not my problem. My problem are believers who have traded in the core values of their faith for an empty and heartless religion that is powerless to bring about anything positive, but is very capable of completely destroying people’s lives.

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    Brudder > Dennis Irwin • 16 hours ago

    “Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists.”

    Why? What is it about Muslims that worries you so much?

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    Matt McDowall > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    Well you can be an atheist Dennis!….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a
    western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two
    shits about Christianity…You would be typing the same ridiculous, unintelligent diatribe but probably saying Allah is great and Mohammed.

    Is this logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% of the world ain’t Christian too right? and the 35% really only got their by pure cohesion, violence and suppression of the early churches…

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    Guest > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two shits about Christianity…is the logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% ain’t Christian too right?

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    Guest > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get based that compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? hats right…you were born into a western country….is the logic troubling you yet?

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    Matt McDowall • 14 hours ago

    God is purely an imaginary friend for an adult.

    Same as when you were a kid…like Santa

    except instead of your parents telling you about Santa…its churches telling you about Mr. God.

    How nice,

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 5 hours ago

    Yes, it is nice, except God isn’t imaginary.

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    Adam Julians • a day ago

    Dont be afriad – trust in the Lord and his mighty power. Put on the armour of God.

    The way to eliminate the darkness is to turn on the light.

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Adam Julians • 5 hours ago

    You go, Adam!

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    Adam Julians > Woodstock Churchlady • 41 minutes ago

    :)

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    clarkbp > Adam Julians • 18 hours ago

    “Lighten up, Francis.” – Sgt. Hulka (aka Big Toe)

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    Woodstock Churchlady • a day ago

    There are some atheists who help me renew my faith, because no matter how smart, nice, and happy they are, my gut reaction (I literally feel it,) is to feel sorry for them. That’s what brought me to this site tonight; I needed to pump up the Christianity.

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    Matt McDowall > Woodstock Churchlady • 14 hours ago

    wow Woodstock….that is really pathetic and no doubt a sly passive aggressiveness…which you really only find in religious zealots like yourself.

    I imagine Muslims look at you and feel the same way yeah? They feel sorry for you…its their gut reaction right? How nice of them to feel sorry for you..

    Actually statistically speaking – Christians are only 35% of the world populations…I suppose the remaining 65% would look at you and feel sorry…its their gut reaction right?

    Wow – how nice is it to have a society or groups who show pity – a pity based on zero evidence…

    But I suppose your are too naive, uneducated and dishonest to actually to know this..

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 12 hours ago

    I may disagree with Muslims, Wiccans, Jews, Buddhists, etc. but I don’t feel sorry for them. They have faith and a sense that there is something more than themselves and this world. I hope they feel the same way about me. They have a purpose in life besides looking sophisticated and raining on believers’ parades.

    And I do not presume to say who is going to Hell. That is God’s job.

    Have a blessed day.

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    Gary > Woodstock Churchlady • 8 hours ago

    Damn if you don’t give people of faith a bad name. I believe in God…but I abhor obnoxious condescending Christians.

    Sigh…

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    Adam Julians > Gary • 17 minutes ago

    Hey Gary,

    I understand that Churchlady mat have come across as obnoxious and condescending by saying she feels sorry for different folks.

    But I don’t see how she gives people of faith a bad name after one, (perhaps misguided) comment..

    What I think she might be wanting to communicate albeit not in the best way, was that she would hope that others coulfd have the same fullness in life that she has with being a follower of Jesus. And be bearing in mind the scene where Jesus wept over Jerusalem gently and, lovingly longing to gather the people together as a mother hen, and feeling the hurt of rejection instead, just as thoce in the city had stoned and rejected the prophets that came befroe him.

    I genuianly am interested (and this is no criticism of your comment), why such an extreme reaction with abhorration and labelling to her comment?

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Gary • 6 hours ago

    I may be giving believers a bad name, but there are millions who don’t and they have a lot to offer, even if I don’t.

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    Matt McDowall > Woodstock Churchlady • 12 hours ago

    Oh so your hatred really goes against people wanting to see evidence for a deity and not an poor excuse and irrational reason such as faith…oh ok – yet again it shows your true colors!

    Secondly you make another astonishing, rude and unjustified statement saying people who don’t belief in a god have no purpose…Excuse me, I have plenty of purpose for my life. I don’t need to be scared into worshiping a diety and being a slave to have purpose…

    Your last statement says it all about your brainwashed belief…So you think it is OK for your God to send people to hell for not believing in him? you know the 65% of the world…..YOU think is is perfectly fine by YOUR own God to do this?!?!

    Can’t you think for yourself?! Thats like saying…its ok for a father to beat his kid (forever) because the kid diagrees with him….

    Your F%&*king sick and twisted….And if your God is true….and does this….he is a hideous monster!!

    Bless all you want. Try to think a bit more instead of being a slave.

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 5 hours ago

    The God you describe is not mine. I think He decides not to send people to Hell. I’m sure I don’t need to go into the doctrine.
    I just wanted to make it clear that I didn’t think I had to right to make that kind of judgment about other people, but I guess it didn’t come out right.

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    Adam Julians > Woodstock Churchlady • 15 minutes ago

    Are you OK?

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Adam Julians • 3 minutes ago −

    Yes, I’m fine. My reaction to an atheist’s (I believe it was a Unitarian minister,) in a Unitarian Magazine that “she could not believe in anything thing that could not be proven” was what started on me on journey back to Christianity. My first thought was “My God (significant word choice), that’s so sad.”

    As a rather reserved WASP, I trust my emotional reactions,

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    Rusty Yates • a day ago

    Atheists are so bad they laugh at Satan.

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    Matt McDowall > Rusty Yates • 14 hours ago

    hell yeahs!!!

    He forgot that we eat babies!

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    the other David Hayward • a day ago

    “#3: There are some atheists who, because they are atheists, are by your standards going to Hell and are therefore, by your standards, children of the devil, which can make for a rather unsettling meeting.”
    Isn’t this the average feeling of the standard Tea Party Congressmen?

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    ragingrev • a day ago

    Amen David. I know some 1′s and 2′s…but they are rare, and I believe most of them eventually grow out it.

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    klhayes • a day ago

    Good list. Unfortunately some Christians would not be able to get past number three b/c they fear their beliefs being challenged and to maintain the idea that atheists must be bad b/c they don’t believe in God.

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    Dennis Irwin • a day ago

    Yeah…if only we could all be like the atheist. I don’t know what Christians you hang around but that list is ridiculous. You think Christians worry about atheists? The ones I know don’t. I definitely don’t. My faith will be upset “because of their quality of intelligence and character”? lol. Or be “uncomfortable” when they attack my beliefs? Let’s go…… attack-away! I’ve been a Christian for about 17 years…….I don’t know if I ever seen Christians fret over an atheist. Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists. The only thing we do care about is militant atheism’s influence in our schools and our culture. We’ll fight that. Because atheism is wrong, it’s on the wrong side of most arguments (evolution for example) and can be a scourge on society. Leading people down a dead end.

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    Gary > Dennis Irwin • 19 hours ago

    How about militant Christianity and the horrible influence that has had on society? I have been a Christian for over 40 years, and I am far more troubled by the militant Christians. Those are the one’s who fight to change our nation’s history of religious freedom into a nation which supports and promotes THEIR religion. They are the ones who dogmatically declare another belief is simply “wrong” and “can be a scourge on society”. These are the ones who seek to deny BASIC science (without ANY qualifications or understanding) and teach our children falsehoods, thereby totally handicapping their ability to intellectually grow and understand the world around them. Those are the one’s who seek to devalue a group of people for an intrinsic characteristic which harms no-one else, such as their race, gender, or sexual orientation (bigotry). Those are the ones who have totally lost the heart of the gospel of love, and replaced it with a campaign of direct confrontation with the world, seeking to engage in “sin” management rather than caring for others as Jesus commanded.

    Atheists are not my problem. My problem are believers who have traded in the core values of their faith for an empty and heartless religion that is powerless to bring about anything positive, but is very capable of completely destroying people’s lives.

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    Brudder > Dennis Irwin • 16 hours ago

    “Christians worry about Muslims….not atheists.”

    Why? What is it about Muslims that worries you so much?

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    Matt McDowall > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    Well you can be an atheist Dennis!….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a
    western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two
    shits about Christianity…You would be typing the same ridiculous, unintelligent diatribe but probably saying Allah is great and Mohammed.

    Is this logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% of the world ain’t Christian too right? and the 35% really only got their by pure cohesion, violence and suppression of the early churches…

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    Guest > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get passed that cognitive compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? that’s right…you were born into a western country weren’t you?… So if you weren’t you wouldn’t give two shits about Christianity…is the logic troubling you yet?

    You do know 65% ain’t Christian too right?

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    Guest > Dennis Irwin • 14 hours ago

    well you can be an atheist Dennis….if only you realise how to get based that compartmentalization of yours, except evidence and have some rational thought.

    why aren’t you a Muslim again? hats right…you were born into a western country….is the logic troubling you yet?

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    Matt McDowall • 14 hours ago

    God is purely an imaginary friend for an adult.

    Same as when you were a kid…like Santa

    except instead of your parents telling you about Santa…its churches telling you about Mr. God.

    How nice,

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 5 hours ago

    Yes, it is nice, except God isn’t imaginary.

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    Adam Julians • a day ago

    Dont be afriad – trust in the Lord and his mighty power. Put on the armour of God.

    The way to eliminate the darkness is to turn on the light.

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Adam Julians • 5 hours ago

    You go, Adam!

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    Adam Julians > Woodstock Churchlady • 41 minutes ago

    :)

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    clarkbp > Adam Julians • 18 hours ago

    “Lighten up, Francis.” – Sgt. Hulka (aka Big Toe)

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    Woodstock Churchlady • a day ago

    There are some atheists who help me renew my faith, because no matter how smart, nice, and happy they are, my gut reaction (I literally feel it,) is to feel sorry for them. That’s what brought me to this site tonight; I needed to pump up the Christianity.

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    Matt McDowall > Woodstock Churchlady • 14 hours ago

    wow Woodstock….that is really pathetic and no doubt a sly passive aggressiveness…which you really only find in religious zealots like yourself.

    I imagine Muslims look at you and feel the same way yeah? They feel sorry for you…its their gut reaction right? How nice of them to feel sorry for you..

    Actually statistically speaking – Christians are only 35% of the world populations…I suppose the remaining 65% would look at you and feel sorry…its their gut reaction right?

    Wow – how nice is it to have a society or groups who show pity – a pity based on zero evidence…

    But I suppose your are too naive, uneducated and dishonest to actually to know this..

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 12 hours ago

    I may disagree with Muslims, Wiccans, Jews, Buddhists, etc. but I don’t feel sorry for them. They have faith and a sense that there is something more than themselves and this world. I hope they feel the same way about me. They have a purpose in life besides looking sophisticated and raining on believers’ parades.

    And I do not presume to say who is going to Hell. That is God’s job.

    Have a blessed day.

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    Gary > Woodstock Churchlady • 8 hours ago

    Damn if you don’t give people of faith a bad name. I believe in God…but I abhor obnoxious condescending Christians.

    Sigh…

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    Adam Julians > Gary • 17 minutes ago

    Hey Gary,

    I understand that Churchlady mat have come across as obnoxious and condescending by saying she feels sorry for different folks.

    But I don’t see how she gives people of faith a bad name after one, (perhaps misguided) comment..

    What I think she might be wanting to communicate albeit not in the best way, was that she would hope that others coulfd have the same fullness in life that she has with being a follower of Jesus. And be bearing in mind the scene where Jesus wept over Jerusalem gently and, lovingly longing to gather the people together as a mother hen, and feeling the hurt of rejection instead, just as thoce in the city had stoned and rejected the prophets that came befroe him.

    I genuianly am interested (and this is no criticism of your comment), why such an extreme reaction with abhorration and labelling to her comment?

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Gary • 6 hours ago

    I may be giving believers a bad name, but there are millions who don’t and they have a lot to offer, even if I don’t.

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    Matt McDowall > Woodstock Churchlady • 12 hours ago

    Oh so your hatred really goes against people wanting to see evidence for a deity and not an poor excuse and irrational reason such as faith…oh ok – yet again it shows your true colors!

    Secondly you make another astonishing, rude and unjustified statement saying people who don’t belief in a god have no purpose…Excuse me, I have plenty of purpose for my life. I don’t need to be scared into worshiping a diety and being a slave to have purpose…

    Your last statement says it all about your brainwashed belief…So you think it is OK for your God to send people to hell for not believing in him? you know the 65% of the world…..YOU think is is perfectly fine by YOUR own God to do this?!?!

    Can’t you think for yourself?! Thats like saying…its ok for a father to beat his kid (forever) because the kid diagrees with him….

    Your F%&*king sick and twisted….And if your God is true….and does this….he is a hideous monster!!

    Bless all you want. Try to think a bit more instead of being a slave.

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Matt McDowall • 5 hours ago

    The God you describe is not mine. I think He decides not to send people to Hell. I’m sure I don’t need to go into the doctrine.
    I just wanted to make it clear that I didn’t think I had to right to make that kind of judgment about other people, but I guess it didn’t come out right.

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    Adam Julians > Woodstock Churchlady • 15 minutes ago

    Are you OK?

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    Woodstock Churchlady > Adam Julians • 3 minutes ago −

    Yes, I’m fine. My reaction to an atheist’s (I believe it was a Unitarian minister,) in a Unitarian Magazine that “she could not believe in anything thing that could not be proven” was what started on me on journey back to Christianity. My first thought was “My God (significant word choice), that’s so sad.”

    As a rather reserved WASP, I trust my emotional reactions,

    Thank you for asking.

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    s a rather reserved WASP, I trust my emotional reactions,

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    My posts keep disappearing, but anyway, thank you for asking. I’m fine.

  • Paul Little

    The scariest thing about atheists: you already know several of them… but you’ll never know who they are, because they’ll never mention it. Because it’ll never occur to them that they should.

  • http://tris-stock.co.uk/ Tris Stock

    Why is that scary? Do you not appraise people by the goodness of their character and behaviour, rather than what they believe or don’t believe?

    You don’t believe in Cthulu, I guess. How often do you mention your position on Cthulu’s existence? Perhaps it never occurs to you to do so.

  • LWMT

    So you don’t have the right to make judgements about other people with faith even though it’s the wrong faith, but it’s okay to judge atheists as shallow with a purposeless existence?

  • http://tris-stock.co.uk/ Tris Stock

    Really? You make it seem like atheists are just childish things, as in 1 Corinthians 13:11, but if you were a ‘true’ Christian you would follow the teachings of Christ (not Paul) as set out in Matthew 18:2-3.

    Your belief that most of them grow out of it does not change the fact that most of them go on to become life-long atheists… Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    I agree, it is quite an intellectual challenge to imagine nonsensical things.

  • LWMT

    I wouldn’t say that Christians should worry atheists but I think some Christians are overly dismissive of atheism, especially if they idealize having a Christian family. I think if Christians want their children grow up and adhere to Christianity in adulthood then they have to know what an atheist will tell their child and give them the tools to counter the claims. Losing your faith is a gradual process for a lot of people and it took me over 10 years to finally lose mine but I know it started after I heard about evolution for the first time. My parents will admit that they didn’t give me the tools to counter evolution or other claims that contradicted the bible as a literal source. As far as militant atheism…what is that? Wearing an atheist shirt or something?

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    but the only way to understand the nature of light is to embrace science.

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    Best way to find out if someone is an Atheist is to try to sell them on religion.

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    Perhaps the next time you feel the need to pump up your righteousness you could maybe “answer the knock on your door” by giving shelter to a homeless person or feeding a hungry child or consoling a troubled soul.

  • ajginn

    ragingrev said “some” not “all”. Do you deny that some atheists fit 1 and 2? Do you deny that most people eventually mature and recognize that belittling and attacking people because of their beliefs is not productive or healthy? ragingrev never made a blanket statement about all atheists. Seems like you were looking for a fight.

  • tuibguy

    There are some atheists who think that the Catholic Church is sexist because it doesn’t allow women in the power structure and that will challenge your belief that women have it a lot better under the church than they did before it came along to protect them.

  • ajginn

    11. You probably have friends/family members who claim to be believers but are really closet atheists. I know this because I was one.

  • Gary

    I think you make a great point LWMT. Evolution was a difficult one for me while I was still mired in the mindset of bible trumps science. This is a no win position for faith and if that were the choice I had to make…I too would have abandoned my faith some time ago. But once I put biblical literalism behind me and stopped worshipping a book…I was able to bring rational thought to my faith and find harmony.

  • corps_suk

    Thats exactly what an 8 year old would say about Santa…”nuh uh…he is too real.”

    Prove it.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    Yeah, pretty much.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    What makes you think I don’t?

  • ragingrev

    I’m not a “True” Christian Tris. I don’t claim to be. I’m a former Christian myself, now atheist – I went through a long stage at 1 and 2 and eventually I grew out of it. My experience is speaking here, not my judgement.

  • LWMT

    I gotta give you credit for being forthright.

  • Pat Maloney

    yep

  • Artor

    It’s scary to some Xians because they believe they can be tainted merely by proximity to the godless. Atheist cooties can get you sent to hell, didn’t you know?

  • David Chappy

    Sadly, most religious people I run across fill all ten of these as well…we are not as different as you think…except the whole believing in an invisible man in the sky thing

  • Adam Julians

    I don’t have a problem with that.

    Do you have a prolblem with anyone saying to seperate Science from fatih is to create a false dichotomy? Many great scientists were professing christians.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    Thank you.

  • Paul Little

    My point was tongue in cheek. Many believers don’t think anybody THEY know is an atheist. Fact is, for every twenty people you know, there is a very strong chance that at least one of them doesn’t believe in God. And you’ll NEVER know who it is.

    How many people do you know?

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    correct, many great scientists were professing christians.

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    What evidence, implied by the question, did you provide in your comment that supports a claim that you do?

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    Well, I work for a social service agency which, among other things, provides food. So what I do helps people eat, Also, part of my job is providing customer service on the phone line, so I occasionally have the chance to offer consolation. I wish the world was such that the agency wasn’t necessary, but since it is, I feel privileged to be a part of it.

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    Despite this transparent attempt at diversion this revealing statement does not answer the question I posited. It is out of context. The statement above and this one definitely shines a light upon your character.

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean.

  • Dennis Irwin

    I guess you meant “accept”. I’m not sure why folks like you must use the “rational thought” crap. Like you always have it.

    As far as being born in the Western world…..I’m sorry to say that means nothing anymore. Europe has become on of least Christian continents in the world. They seem to be doing great without it. To borrow a move from Gary I’ll quote Wikipedia…..”Christianity has been estimated to be growing rapidly in South America, Africa, and Asia. In Africa, for instance, in 1900, there were only 8.7 million adherents of Christianity; now there are 390 million, and it is expected by 2025 there will be 600 million Christians in Africa. The number of Catholics in Africa has increased from one million in 1902 to 329,882,000. There are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people.” I think your logic is off.

    Next: Christians “only got their by pure cohesion, violence and suppression of the early churches…” Prove it.

  • Dennis Irwin

    What bible do you read? You sound so bitter…..are you sure you’re not the enemy? I’m assuming when you say ” They are the ones who dogmatically declare another belief is simply “wrong” …” that you mean atheism. If Christ is who he said He is……how can an atheist be “simply wrong”? Have you read the Bible? It almost seems like you make up your own gospel.

    “Those are the ones who have totally lost the heart of the gospel of love, and replaced it with a campaign of direct confrontation with the world, seeking to engage in “sin” management rather than caring for others as Jesus commanded.” …..I don’t know if you’re talking about me….but I don’t ever recall bringing up “sin”. You know Gary, you just might make me tell my story. I’m curious….what do you think is the gospel of love?

    “………..deny BASIC science (without ANY qualifications or understanding) and teach our children falsehoods” You mean like the theory of evolution for which there is no proof? Which is why they call it a theory. Like you’ve seen the proof! lol. I think you might be arrogant.

    “Those are the one’s who seek to devalue a group of people for an intrinsic characteristic which harms no-one else, such as their race, gender, or sexual orientation (bigotry)” You’ll have to go back and get a quote because this isn’t true. I will say this….the rise of homosexuality will help eliminate another “scourge on society”……abortion.

  • wanderer

    While you’re busy feeling sorry for me, I’m busy having a lovely day and not thinking about you at all. So….

  • Woodstock Churchlady

    Not to quibble, but you just did. But continue to enjoy your day.
    I tried to add a smiley face, but it just ended up looking surprised because of the period. How about a heart? <3

  • Dennis Irwin

    They wrote about me in their book……and not in a good way.

    Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
    Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
    Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
    Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
    Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
    Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
    Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
    Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
    Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
    Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

  • Adam Julians

    Were and no reason to belive otherwise in the present. I know someone who debates well for science and Christianity being connected. I would recommend looking up John Lennox if you are interested. Lovely Irish accent by the way.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Dennis: The Bible is FULL of stories of annihilation and extermination of people other than the people of God, at God’s command. And they were punished if they didn’t. Get a grip and please take your Islamophobic attitude elsewhere.

  • Dennis Irwin

    This whole “literal” thing is dumb. Jesus spoke in parables….those aren’t literal…so? Does that mean he wasn’t speaking truth? Only the immature can’t tell when they’re reading poetry (psalms) as opposed to a letter (Romans) or a historical narrative (Genesis, Joshua) or a parable (Jesus). It’s an ignorant argument. Btw….there is no proof for evolution.

  • Dennis Irwin

    God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. But I’ve never seen anywhere in the Bible where he has commanded me to kill someone if they don’t believe.

    I’m not trying to inflame….just fighting to understand truth. It’s uncomfortable sometimes. I read that somewhere! lol

  • Dennis Irwin

    Like evolution.

  • Dennis Irwin

    “Christians are overly dismissive of atheism”….not true. Concerned for atheists would be a better description.

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ Tanner B James

    Or your faith in imaginary beings.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Prove He’s not.

  • corps_suk

    Another child who fails logic.

    Not my claim, I have no burden of proof…you do, so prove it.

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, have you read these passages in the bible:

    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, here’s another quotation. Have you read this one?

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, perhaps you’ve read this passage in the bible:

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, yet another passage that you must have read:

    Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, in case you wish to ignore these passages, feel free to learn what Jesus had to say about the old testament rules:

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, if you choose to ignore that Jesus quote, here’s another:

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

  • Dennis Irwin

    Yep….that was for them, at that time 5,000 years ago. Not for me. Nowhere is there a command to continue to kill in God’s name.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Same as above.

  • Dennis Irwin

    I’m sure you realize, again, that was for Israel. It’s a cute game for people who don’t know…..the Israelites were the chosen people. They had some different roads to travel. There is no command for the Christian church to kill anyone.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Yet the same answer…see above.

  • LWMT

    I disagree. I think many people are so invested in their faith that they find it almost impossible to think their friends, spouses, or children could become atheist.

  • LWMT

    Christians have had resources to send missionaries to Africa, and that’s why African Christians have grown in numbers, but I’m not convinced they’re better off now. Google ‘Africa Christian witch burning.’ They’re using their Christianity to burn people for not saying Jesus is their personal savior, they’re doing exorcisms on children and making them drink acid so they suffer for a month or so before they die. At best these children have to live on the streets. So I think that’s a good modern example of how the church is able to gain momentum through violence.

  • Charles Raymond Miller

    That’s what the Muslims say, well not exactly but they claim to be the true followers of God, the same Bible god that you and the Israelites worship. It seems the same with all religions, – your book is the “good book” and all of your god sanctioned acts are moral.

  • WillBell

    This conversation:
    “Santa isn’t real”

    “Nuh uh, he is too real”
    “Oh ya? Prove it!”
    “No, you prove it!”
    “No! You prove it!”

  • WillBell

    1, 3, and 4 sound like stereotypical caricatures of fundamentalism.

    However since I take it that you actually believe this BS I’ll mention that paragraph one is very close to a No True Scotsman.

  • WillBell

    So to summarize: “We used to do that all the time when god ordered it, now he doesn’t order it anymore.”
    How comforting to know that your god got over his genocidal tendencies.

  • corps_suk

    He said “imaginary”, not something with a proponderance of proof so thick everything from geology to medicine to cosmology supports it.

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, you are a cafeteria Xian, pickng and choosing which passages of the bible apply to you, especially when Jesus was specific to the rules in the old testament:

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

  • Bear Millotts

    Really, you ignore the bible at your convenience especially when Jesus is very specific about the old testament laws:

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

  • corps_suk

    So 2 children who fail simple logic….sad, but not suprising.

  • Bear Millotts

    Actually, the laws of the old testament apply to Xians as much as the Israelites. Jesus himself said so:

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, do you support same sex marriage? After all, the prohibitions against homosexuality are in the old testament, which you feel free to ignore. Or do you pick and choose which passages in the old testament to follow and which to ignore like any cafeteria Xian?

    After all, Jesus said:

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

  • MarkTemporis

    No more than reading a comic book or fantasy novel.

  • LWMT

    Why are you still following the 10 commandments?

  • Gary

    Your ignorance is truly beyond comprehension.

  • Gary

    Bullshit. I have concluded that your purpose here is absolutely to inflame.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Mat 26:52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

    I don’t ignore the bible, I just read the whole thing. And to be honest the cards are stacked against me……”But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” (1 Cor. 2:14)

    Most who are spiritually discerned know that in the Old Testament there were 3 categories of law: ceremonial (Israel’s worship…not Christians), civil law applied to the daily living of ISRAEL (not Christians) and the moral law which is the foundation to Matt 22:36-40-

    36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    You also missed this: Col 2:14-17

    14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
    16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    Come on man, do I need to hook you up with a Sunday School class?

  • Gary

    Absolutely false. The proof of evolution is overwhelming. As I said before…your ignorance is astounding. Your nonsense does more to harm the cause of Christ than any atheist. You make faith a laughing stock.

  • Dennis Irwin

    You’re wrong. See post above.

  • Dennis Irwin

    I don’t see that written anywhere. You can’t be straight in debate?

  • Dennis Irwin

    “not exactly”…..exactly.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Actually, no. Listen, I’m like a one legged man in a butt kickin’ contest in here. You asked me a few days ago why I come here, and after some thought I now know there are many reasons. One, I’m a truth seeker. I don’t believe just anybody or anything. I study and then live and learn. One of the best ways to do that is to explore the opposite of what you believe. Or debate people who think different than you. Things I haven’t thought of get exposed, poor thought gets exposed, inadequate communication skills get exposed and my faith gets challenged causing me to search more, which in turn strengthens my faith. And of course, all this causes my sword to sharpen. In essence, you’re helping me.
    There is more.

  • Dennis Irwin

    No….maybe I should have highlighted “simply”.

    Plus…who said Christian fundamentalism is bad?

  • Dennis Irwin

    I never did get what you thought the “gospel of love is”.

  • Gary

    Sometimes love means looking an abuser in the eye and saying you are full of shit!! Jesus did it with the Pharisees. I am doing it with you.

  • Dennis Irwin

    What “overwhelming” proof?

  • Gary

    I’ll give you a source you might trust. Try reading “the Language of God” by Francis Collins. A believer who is a highly respected scientist and was the head of the human genome mapping project. When you find out the evidence for evolution that is literally present in our DNA (even yours), to continue to deny it you have to deliberately choose to deceive yourself.

  • Dennis Irwin

    “Sometimes love means looking an abuser in the eye and saying you are full of shit!!” We finally agree on something! One small difference…..I believe that’s what I’m doing with you…..the fundamentalist bigot!

  • Dennis Irwin

    I’ll check it out.

    Maybe you’ll read this…..http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=53

  • Gary

    I’m the fundamentalist bigot? Seriously dude…time to call a spade a spade. You are truly a moron. Spend some time in a dictionary.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Ironically, when you first called me a bigot I did look it up. Maybe you should do the same. Saying it’s gross to see/hear about two dudes kissing doesn’t qualify.

    And just for the record….I’ve never called you a moron….but….

  • WillBell

    I do not see how the word simply impacts at all on the no true scotsman…

  • Dennis Irwin

    Because they’re the foundation of ……
    Matt 22:36-40
    36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

  • Dennis Irwin

    ummm…..see above.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Please….I’ve been to Nigeria 4 times. This is crap. The only killing I saw or heard of was the Muslims north of Jos killing Christians.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Well how about this way….if Jesus is who He said he was….another belief is irrelevant.

  • Gary

    Well aware of those charlatans spreading lies. (Knowingly even) They promote completely nonsense pseudoscience and look for the incredibly ignorant to swallow their swill and line their pockets with filthy lucre. Time after time their “science” has been shown to be not just false…but absolutely dishonest. Only fools swallow the putrid stench that comes from their “ministry”.

  • The Good Society

    “And of course, all this causes my sword to sharpen.”

    another samurai, i suppose.

    sigh.

  • WillBell

    So because he doesn’t dismiss everyone else’s beliefs out of hand and consider everyone’s right to have their views equally important to a Christian’s right to hold theirs he is not acting in a Christian manner?

    By narrowing the definition of Christian you are doing EXACTLY what a no true scotsman is, narrowing the definition of the group you belong to so that you can exclude the people who you disagree with.

  • Bear Millotts

    So Dennis, you follow all the bible, except the parts where it says to kill non-believers, and then you ignore those parts because you are following all the bible.

    You can’t even be honest and admit that you pick and choose the parts of the bible to ignore and the parts that you follow, even though your responses to these quotes is exactly that: how very cafeteria Xian of you.

  • Bear Millotts

    Dennis, no sunday school classes necessary, because you’ve just admitted that you don’t follow the bible, instead choosing which passages apply to you and which do not, using a bnllsh!t “reason” that you call “spiritual discernment” to pick and choose. So, where in the bible does Jesus grant you the authority to make sh!t up like “spiritual discernment?”

    Your argument that the Koran commands muslims to kill non-believers is equally valid for the passages I cited in the bible which commands Xians to kill non-believers, because those passages exist.

    Now if Jesus had gone through the old testament line-by-line and red-lined passages he no longer wanted Xians to follow, that would be one thing, but he didn’t. So when Jesus says the laws still apply, and you say that they don’t because you have “spiritual discernment,” who am I to believe? You or your god, who is, in your estimation, perfect.

    Yet you, and I’m sure a moderate muslim, conveniently ignore those passages while emphasizing the peace and love passages.

    Too bad you can’t see your cognitive dissonance. You can’t make the claim that the bible doesn’t tell you to kill non-believers when the passages I gave you FROM THE BIBLE explicitly command killing non-believers.

    Too bad you can’t be honest enough to admit you are a cafeteria Xian. And I suppose that you also naively believe that anti-semitism isn’t a direct result of Xianity.

  • Gary

    OK I’ll answer though I had thought otherwise. Her comments are completely illustrative of the fraudulent version of the Christian faith. It represents everything Christ sought to correct. Condescending judgment and condemnation is the cancer that has literally killed the gospel.

  • Adam Julians

    I have no idea whther you are an atheist or not. If you are, your dispropritionate and unsubtantiated reaction ironically gives power to the statement she made about feeling sorry for atheists and ironically it does what she intended, to “pump up the Christianity”.

  • Gary

    Nope…not an atheist. And my “reaction” was not “disproportionate and unsubstantiated” at all…it was exactly what I believe and substantiated by her comments. I happen to be a believer who is sick of the condition of the Christian religion today. I believe the vast majority of it has run away from the gospel and smug judgmental condescension by believers directed at those they believe are “lost” speaks to the very heart of the problem. And if that is your idea of “pumping up Christianity” then you are as clueless as she is.

  • Adam Julians

    In your opinion your comment was not disproportionate and unsubstantiated in my opinion it was.

    Again You may be right about Chuirchlady coming across as obnoxious and condescending. But in my opinion the way you interacted with her was ungentlemanly. If your last sentence is an indication that you have left her alone, then I will have achieved what I set out to do with my initial comment. I dislike seeing women being spoken to by men in the manner that you had.

    There is usefulness in rhetoric but that can only go so far in healthy dialogue. Where there is opinion then one person’s is not wiser than anthers as all are open to being appropriate or inappropriate, wise or foolish equally.

    Only truth is of substance. The truth is that she came here with the intention to “pump up Christianity”. And you now indicating that you are a follower of Jesus by saying you are not an atheist, you have a duty as we all to to bear with one another, forgiving and showing grace. If you don’t forgive then you know God will not forgive you as the same is true for me.

    I share your concern for Christian religion though I have to say that in my cases it is some aspects of that, not generically as it is for you. In fact I have found I have needed to come tom my own defense against false accusation form an leading conservative evangelical in Scotland just this week.

    I hope you find community where there is healthy repersentation of Christ and a mutual edification in him where you can find healing from the sick you have mentioned expereincing.

  • Gary

    So you are a sexist then? My comment had nothing whatsoever to do with gender nor should it. Frankly…the call for acting “gentlemanly” as well as the admonition to “bear with one another, forgiving and showing grace” sounds very much like the method employed by church leaders seeking to silence those who would speak out against wrongs. The call to grace does not imply we should never challenge. If that were the case Jesus would not have been as aggressive with the condition of the church in His day. And the chiding nugget about forgiving others or God will not forgive me is clearly another method of seeking to control another whose opinion or actions you do not like. It makes no sense whatsoever in the context of this discussion. She does not owe me an apology so there is no forgiveness to give or withhold.

    This discussion board is purposely for direct and at times blunt challenges to many of the flaws of religion. I do feel very strongly about the attitude prevalent within the Christian faith and this is the perfect arena for just these types of discussions…whether they be a bit blunt for some or not.

  • Adam Julians

    I’m perfectly happy for you to call me a sexist in this context Gary – it shows that I am doing something right for women in showing concern that they treated gentlemanly and in keeping with your other extreme reactions shows your argument to lack substance, containing as it does opinion and no fact. It is of course offensive for you to claim I am being sexist, a misrepresentation therefore untrue and makes you out to be a liar.

    It also make you out to be a hypocrite for saying what you have about Churchlady giving people of faith a bad name.

    I don’t have any problem whatsoever about you speaking out against wrongs in the church Gary. But to do so like GW Bush addressed terrorism with a “war on terror” in the oxymoron nature of such dos not do so, only compounds the problem.

    I reject you implication that I am acting as a church leader would that would silence those who would speak out against wrongs and I would say that you are acting wrongly and misrepresenting Christ with the lie as mentioned.This represents the “flaw of religion”. You don’t fight such with acting just as badly as those you point out to be wrong alone (whether what they are doing is wrong or not), You do it with forgiveness, love truth and grace.

    Your defensiveness suggests there is truth in what both I and Church lady have been saying. I think you are being the sexist and I think you are trying to distract from that by scapegoating.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Adam: A small lesson: what Gary said to churchlady (a pseudonym by the way that might suggest that the person isn’t a woman)… was something Gary might say to anyone… a man or a woman. If you believed churchlady was a man you wouldn’t have raised any concern. But the fact you believe churchlady is a woman and came to her defense suggests to me that you think women should be spoken to differently than men should. THAT is sexist. Let people argue whether they are men or women.

  • Adam Julians

    Interesting point David – I hadn’t thought of Churchlady possibly being a man – sometimes I can be nave about such things. Thanks for the heads up.

    As for the two assumptions you have made. Fistly that I would have not raised any concern if churchlady was not a man. That is opinion not truth and therefore cannot be substantiated. I’m not going to dignify an assertion made on opinion not truth – it would be embarrassing to you and to me to do so and you have embarrassed yourself by trying to make out your opnion is fact when it it your opinon and nothing more.

    Secondly Gary did act in an un gentelmanly way in my opinion in the way he acted towards church lady. If he acted towards a woman like that then called me sexist for pointing out the fact of the way he treated them then I stand by my opinion of him being sexist and trying to distract form his own misconduct by scapegoating.

    But there is on thing you are right about, I may speak and act differently to women than I do to men. Just as I would be more inclined to hold a door open for a woman than I would be for a man. You might not do so but that does not make one of us right and the other wrong but different.

    Women as you know have been oppressed by men throughout history and it is a gentlemanly thing and empowering thing to come against such actions when they occur in the interest of equality for women. For you not to come against the way Gay has treated Chruchlady if she is a woman is for you to be sexist and to enable the oppression of a woman by a man by the extreme reactions Gary has mad as mentioned and standing by and doing nothing about it.

    Someone has to step in if equality is to be attained in conversations here and it might as well be me.

  • Gary

    Now you have directly called me a “liar”, and a “hypocrite”. Way to demonstrate this showing of “grace” you were chiding me for. LMFAO And your comment that I am the “sexist” is rather comical considering you were the one who implied that a woman is not on an equal footing with a man and therefor I should somehow discuss things differently with her because apparently her tender sensitivities are not up to, oh I don’t know…a manly discussion? That you have arrived at the conclusion that I am sexist for stating that gender has nothing to do with the issue at all is beyond absurd. In fact…it makes me wonder about your basic comprehension skills. And your comment about GW’s “War on terrorism” is, frankly, complete bullshit.

    I have left the church specifically because of abusive people like you and I will gladly confront you now. I no longer wilt under the abusive tactics of shame and guilt tripping as you have repeatedly attempted to use with me. In fact I recognise your style of abuse so clearly I can now say with great freedom and confidence…Fuck You. You and your kind don’t get to control me any longer.

    I have told no lies. I have represented what I believe (as do a great many on this board) is one of the tremendous flaws of religion in general and Christianity specifically. You don’t like my tone? Tough shit. I strongly object to your demeaning ivory tower behavior. My objections voiced concerning the attitude presented by Woodstock Churchlady stand because they are very much on target.

  • Adam Julians

    Saying all these things is consistent with your earlier extreme reactions. That is to be expected and again suggest truth in what has been said both by me and Christlady.

    Your comment is of course yet another example of opinon, of unsubstantiated rhetoric. To invaidate and mock valid commets is offensive misrepresentative and I come against all of the comments that paint me and Churchlady in a bad light (without cause to do so supported by truth) by the God given gift of fath in Jesus’ name.

    Now all that have been involved in quarells and careless talk unbecoming of followers of Jesus must go and bow to Jesus. And that includes you Gary. I will be bowing to Jesus.

  • Adam Julians

    I don’t see my posting that I made in reply to your comment remaining David. If you have removed it then I take that to be you restricting my freedom of speach. And preventing me from defending the accusation of sexism that you have made.

    That of courrse is your perogative but if you have done so, then I have to regard that as inappropriate, your comment as defammaroty by law and therefore worthy of a law suit.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    You threatened me with a law suit on another site and I blocked you there. I am blocking you here as well. Goodbye Adam.

  • Gary

    You don’t disappoint. Continued attempts to shame and discredit. And all in the context of your bravado laced untruths and capped by your condescending appeal to some sort of false humility. You should apply to be a pastor with Mark Driscoll. You two would get along swimmingly well. Well guess what…I am not in your “flock” and your preaching to me will be received as nothing but the opinion of someone who I strongly disagree with.

    Hey here’s a thought…How about you come back with more verbose rhetoric intended to shame me? Maybe throw in a couple of good bible verses threatening eternal judgment next time and of course and tell me again how humble you are and how right you are. Evidently you must not be doing it right because clearly you have not gotten the response from me you are seeking. If you are going to totally invalidate my views you are going to have to step it up man. More condescension woven in the shame perhaps. Oh and bible bludgeoning…don’t forget the bible bludgeoning.

  • Gary

    You are true to form I’ll give you that. If one attempt to shame does not work…circle around and go at it again. As always…you seek to deflect your abuse by playing the false humility card with a sampling of righteous indignation thrown in. You should apply for a pastoral job working with Mark Driscoll…you two would get along swimmingly well.

    Clearly you have not gotten the response from me you are looking for so why not have another go at it. But try ramping it up even more this time. Don’t stop at calling me a liar and sexist (after all truth matters not to you so just throw them in there again and find some more to go with them) but really lay on the heavy stuff. Throw some threats of God’s vengeance at me and appeal to Christ’s Lordship as some type of evidence that you have the moral high ground. Oh and be sure to clobber me with bible passages as well. Nothing makes a better club than ripping biblical principles out of context to suit your needs.

    Did I wait long enough? Don’t want to interupt your “bowing to Jesus” after all. (I just love it when people play the humble submission card and wear it proudly as a badge of honor…LOL)

  • Gary

    Hmm…I see my comment came up that was missing earlier. (Must have been a computer glitch) These last two of mine look repetitive…but it was not intended to be such.

  • Gary

    “Worthy of a law suit”? Wow…Now you threaten legal action against those who dare challenge your high and mighty view? You are totally losing your grip man. (Thank God)

  • Dennis Irwin

    Then I guess Jesus was the definition of a “no true Scotsman”. I’m with Him.

  • Dennis Irwin

    You do know that there are 2 testaments….right? You do realize that the Torah is the JEWISH equivalent to the bible? Right? You’re being ignorant.

  • Dennis Irwin

    “Now if Jesus had gone through the old testament line-by-line and red-lined passages he no longer wanted Xians to follow, that would be one thing”…..yep…that’s what He needed to do. He didn’t do enough, dang it. I guess for guys like you, he wasn’t clear enough. So sad for you.

    “Too bad you can’t see your cognitive dissonance. You can’t make the claim that the bible doesn’t tell you to kill non-believers when the passages I gave you FROM THE BIBLE explicitly command killing non-believers”……I was pretty clear….sorry for you ignorance.

  • WillBell

    I’m fairly certain Jesus’ message was inclusion, that’s why he started his own ministry, to create a church equally for gentiles as for Jews. And couldn’t the man you were accusing of being an atheist just as easily say that he is with god and exclude you from his version of Christianity? The things about No True Scotsmen are that the target of the no true scotsman can say the same about you. After all what TRUE christian would exclude a moderate who only hopes to improve the church by removing its aggressive propaganda wing and incorporate rational scientific knowledge into our contextual reading of the bible.

  • Dennis Irwin

    I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me…….seems inclusive.
    I like how there’s always these little caveat words used by folks here….. like “rational” in front of scientific. Who says what’s rational….you? Seems pretty inclusive.
    I don’t remember from you past posts, but I would bet that you believe and even defend the theory of evolution…..even though there’s no proof. Rational?

  • Gary

    The willingness to make up your own reality is truly staggering. Of course there is proof…overwhelming proof. But you get your bravado laced claims concerning the field of science not from the actual scientific community itself, but choose instead a charlatan and a liar…a man who continues to lie about both his education and his work experience. A man so unqualified to even speak on the issues he claims expertise in (NO education and NO work experience as a scientist AT ALL) that he makes a mockery out of true science.

    One would really question how such blatantly obvious frauds can find anyone to support them and buy their rubbish. That is until a person like you is encountered…and then it all makes sense. Truth is irrelevant, only the preservation of dogma matters.

  • Gary

    Not exactly…LOL

    The written Torah is (of course) the first 5 books of the old testament. The very same books that are at the start of YOUR bible, and very clearly the books Jesus was referring to in the passages referenced above.

  • WillBell

    The point is that anybody could find the way to the father through him… that is inclusive.
    I put rational there to distinguish from your clearly irrational beliefs that are not evidence based and therefore are by their very definition irrational.
    There is plenty of evidence for the theory of evolution, you just have to look for it, although from the reactions you’re getting from other commenters I’m assuming that you’ve been told many times before and are simply too entrenched in your beliefs to consider any evidence against your views.
    If I am wrong, and I very much hope I am, I’ll get you started. Have you heard of the concept of Nested Hierarchies ( http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy )? It is a simple and by far one of my favourite pieces of evidence for common descent, tell me what you think and come back, I’ll even put it in smaller words if you want. :p

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Actually, the New Testament doesn’t make any sense without the Old Testament: No reason for Jesus to sacrifice himself to himself, no original sin, nothing like that, IF you ignore the Old Testament.

    And you’ve just admitted to ignoring the Old Testament.

    You really are ignorant of your own religion, aren’t you?

    Feel free to totally ignore the Old Testament. Maybe you’ll eventually reach the point where you can ignore the New.

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    Hi, I am an atheist

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    I had a nice long reply ready for you, but then I read your statement saying that Atheists are on the wrong side of the evolution argument, then I realized that nothing I typed here would make any sense to you. I bet you even believe that all life was created on Earth as-is by your god sometime in the last 10,000 years.

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    Is there ANY first century record, statue, tribute, shrine, other than the bible that acknowledges that jesus actually lived?

    Have you REALLY read the bible? Try reading it with the similar stories at the same time. You will see so many discrepancies that it should make you wonder about its authenticity.

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    With over 30,000 different sects of Xianity, the bible isn’t clear enough. How can it be with so many different and contradictory “spiritual discernments” that each of these sects adhere to. So Jesus actually going through the Old Testament line by line would have cleared up a lot of confusion, confusion that you, yourself, exhibit.

    So sad, actually, for you and Xianity.

    You failed in your attempt to color Muslims as willing to kill non-believers when you chose to ignore all those passages that do the same for Xians.

    A muslim could take each one of those quotes from the Koran and wish it away the same way you do by stating that it doesn’t apply to them because they read the whole Koran and Islam is a religion of peace.

    You are the ignorant one, ignorant of your own religion. Willing to ignore the Old Testament. Without the Old Testament, the New has no place: no original sin, no reason for Jesus to die on the cross.

    When Jesus told a parable that ended in this “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.” (Luke 19:27), what did he mean by it? What is the lesson of this parable? Why add it to the end of the parable, except to authorize those who don’t want to be ruled by Jesus to be killed?

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    Me.
    Christian fundamentalists are using the US government to force their beliefs upon all citizens and that is against the Constitution.

    Christian fundamentalists are trying to pass legislation is various states to either not teach accepted science in science class or to require science teachers to “teach” topics that are not scientifically valid. Both of those actions further put our children behind the rest of the world in the area of science.

    Christian fundamentalists want to prevent legal citizens from the full protection and benefits of the government.

    Christian fundamentalists want to tell me how to live my life. It is not their worry. Once you get out of my life, I will leave you alone.

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    and what if you finally realize that there was no Biblical Jesus?

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    all alone then

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    How can you say that there is no proof of evolution? You must have lived in a cardboard box all your life to not understand Evolution is real and true. Let’s try a simple one: Do you know why there have to be new and different antibiotics to treat bacterial infections? Because over time, the bacteria EVOLVE and become resistant to the older antibiotics. Why is there NO recorded evidence of humans living with the great dinosaurs?

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    You really have not read your babble (err bible)

    Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests – Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    Kill Witches – You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    Kill Homosexuals – “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    Kill Fortunetellers – A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    Death for Hitting Dad – Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    Death for Cursing Parents – 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    Death for Adultery – If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    Death for Fornication – A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Death to Followers of Other Religions – Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Kill Nonbelievers – They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    Kill False Prophets – If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

    Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God – Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night – But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

    Kill Followers of Other Religions. – 1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

    Death for Blasphemy – One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

    Kill False Prophets – 1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

    2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

    Infidels and Gays Should Die – So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

    Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle – For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

    Kill People for Working on the Sabbath – The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

    There are many more…

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    Continuing with the lists of murder in the bible…

    Kill Brats – From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

    God Kills the Curious – And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

    Killed by a Lion – Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

    Killing the Good Samaritan – The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

    When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

    Kill Sons of Sinners – Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

    God Will Kill Children – The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

    Kill Men, Women, and Children – “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

    God Kills all the First Born of Egypt – And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

    Kill Old Men and Young Women – “You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

    (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

    God Will Kill the Children of Sinners – If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

    More Rape and Baby Killing – Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

    (Should I continue?)

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    You don’t learn, you reject all that is different and challenges you.

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    It is easy to prove, look up the reasons for killing the American Indians. They were FORCED to convert to christianity or be killed.

  • BlowtorchOfReason

    Did you know that there is not a single thing written in the Torah/Bible/Qur’an that could not have been written by first century man? If it were truly “inspired” or the “word of god” then there would be things written in it that no man of the time could comprehend.

    Did you also know that there is no evidence of the Exodus nor of the Conquest as written in the bible? Those are foundational stories of the bible. If they are not true (and as you said in the historical narrative section of the bible) then the foundation is flawed.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Hi atheist!

  • Dennis Irwin

    ” If it were truly “inspired” or the “word of god” then there would be things written in it that no man of the time could comprehend.”…..Says who?

    “Did you also know that there is no evidence of the Exodus nor of the Conquest as written in the bible? Those are foundational stories of the bible. If they are not true (and as you said in the historical narrative section of the bible) then the foundation is flawed.”………….Well….somebody wrote about it 3,500 yrs ago. That’s more evidence than there is for the theory of evolution.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Actually….just the opposite.

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    So you saw Muslims kill Xians? How did you ever get away?

  • Dennis Irwin

    Only you’re rational, only you’re scientist are right, only you’re beliefs are based on evidence, only your group is smart and anyone who says different is dumb. OK. I get it. lolololololololololololol. So open minded.

    Of course I’ve heard of nested hierarchies…….that’s your favorite? Wow, ok. It’s just man doing his job….Gen 2:19- ” Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name”

    One thing N.H. doesn’t account for……what was the first? We can go back and forth with man made-up crap all day…let’s use even smaller words to speed it up. How did it all start? And where can my eyes see evolution when I step outside tomorrow morning?

  • Dennis Irwin

    “EVOLVE”? Into what…..a cat? The correct word is mutate.

    “Why is there NO recorded evidence of humans living with the great dinosaurs?” ……Well there was that thing called the Flood. But when was the book of Job written?……..Job 40:15-“Behold, Behemoth,
    which I made as I made you;
    he eats grass like an ox.
    16 Behold, his strength in his loins,
    and his power in the muscles of his belly.
    17 He makes his tail stiff like a cedar;
    the sinews of his thighs are knit together.
    18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
    his limbs like bars of iron.”

  • Dennis Irwin

    Nationalists. Ever been there?

  • Dennis Irwin

    Maybe….but for one tiny little problem. Muslims practice their religion as I interpreted it……and Christians aren’t practicing as you want to interpret it.

    Luke 19:27?…..You atheists are like JW’s….brainwashed on certain scriptures. First of all….parable?! Second…..it’s an end times parable and one day the Lord will return, destroying his enemies and recreating the earth.

    That’s why for the last 2k years Christians have been killing “those who don’t want to be ruled by Jesus”. !!?? I hate calling people names….but this is so moronic.

    Sorry buddy.

  • Dennis Irwin

    No, the Torah is the Jewish equivalent to the Bible. The Bible includes Gen-Deut in the old Testament. But they’re not the Torah to Christians. The point is, when the Torah was written…there were no Christians. It was written for all….but for the Jew first. Just like Christ came for the Jew first, then the gentile. Which is why the 1st 5 books of the Bible are not the Torah to Christians. It has a different purpose. Do we really have to go over this? Judaism and Christianity are different. Is it that much of a mystery? I already explained why Christians are not bound by all the laws of Moses…but the law is a foundation to Christ’s command to love God and love your neighbor. If you don’t get it….sorry.

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Maybe….but for one tiny little problem. Xians practice their religion as I interpret it……and Muslims aren’t practicing as you want to interpret it.

    Luke 19:27?…..You Xians are like JW’s…brainwashed on ignoring scriptures you don’t like. FIrst of all…parables are interpreted literally by thousands of Xian sects. Second….there’s nothing in the parable to even place it at end times, it’s just Jesus telling a tale that explicitly supports slavery and killing those who disagree with him.

    That’s why for the last 2k years Xians have been waiting for someone to appear who simply won’t and that Xians throughout the centuries have been more than willing to kill those who disagree with them. I hate calling people names….but this is so moronic.

    Sorry buddy.

    You see, why should I believe your religion is true when you have no evidence to support it? Biology and Medical science has something to say on a dead body “rising from the dead.” Chemistry has something to say for a woman being turned into a pillar of salt. Astronomy and Geology has something to say on a 10,000 year old Earth. Physics has something to say on a person “reappearing” after 2000 years. And in each and every single case of the bible vs. science, guess who wins? Science. We know how lightning works, how disease works and that bats are not birds. We have a preponderance of physical evidence, while you only have “god did it.”

  • Dennis Irwin

    Your whole OT vs NT thing is ignorant. You don’t get it….and probably never will. Last time…here’s what I just wrote on Gary’s post, but I want to give you on last chance to catch on……

    “No, the Torah is the Jewish equivalent to the Bible. The Bible includes Gen-Deut in the old Testament. But they’re not the Torah to Christians. The point is, when the Torah was written…there were no Christians. It was written for all….but for the Jew first. Just like Christ came for the Jew first, then the gentile. Which is why the 1st 5 books of the Bible are not the Torah to Christians. It has a different purpose. Do we really have to go over this? Judaism and Christianity are different. Is it that much of a mystery? I already explained why Christians are not bound by all the laws of Moses…but the law is a foundation to Christ’s command to love God and love your neighbor. If you don’t get it….sorry”

    I don’t ignore the OT I just know that what it’s purpose is…

    Luke 19:27??!! Come on, man. Get off the atheist brainwashing sites. First….parable!!?? Second…..It’s an end times parable when Christ comes back…have you read Revelation to see what happens?

    And another problem you have…….
    “A muslim could take each one of those quotes from the Koran and wish it away the same way…” But the reality is you can see throughout the world that the Muslim does interpret the Koran the way I say he does…..and by the same reality you can see throughout the world that the Christian does not interpret the Bible the way you say we do.

  • Gary

    “Do we really have to go over this?”

    Wow – For someone as willfully ignorant as you…your level of smug condescension is extraordinary. Of course the Torah was written first for the jews…who ALSO happen to be the heritage of Christ. The point you have refused to acknowledge by engaging in a rather childish game of sticking your fingers in your ears and simply talking past everyone is what Jesus Himself stated with regards to the law. Thus far your understanding of the bible has been greatly overshadowed by the atheists present in the conversation. (I was going to say who have been debating with you…but for that to be true you would have to engage in a two way discussion where you actually respond to their points.)

    Look Dennis…you have already revealed to us all we need to know about you. You get your facts from liars and religious extremists who have no desire speak truth. You have an unbelievably holier than thou attitude that drips arrogance from your communication in every post, and frankly…you have nothing to back it up with. You are a class clown, a novelty that makes an interesting case study into the ignorance of religious extremism.

  • Gary

    You don;t have a scientist Dennis…you have a quack who is a liar and a scam artist. (A point you have thus far chosen to conveniently refuse to acknowledge)

    “And where can my eyes see evolution when I step outside tomorrow morning?”

    WOW – LMFAO

  • WillBell

    That’s not evolution, that is abiogenesis, there is a difference. I never said that only my side was rational, it just so happens that your side is not. That being the side that chooses to ignore all the evidence for evolution and to accuse other Christians who hold a different interpretation of their responsibilities as Christians of being ‘the enemy’.

    Nested Hierarchies are evidence for evolution whether you like it or not, if we were simply put on Earth it would be impossible to map out lineages because it would be impossible to outline a in-group and an out-group, this is especially powerful when you consider that most genes can be shown to form similar phylogenetic trees, every gene that humans share with chimpanzees and squid in every case the human’s and the chimpanzee’s will be more similar to each other than to the squid. Even the molecules effectively doing the same function in all three animals.

    As to where you can see evolution, I’m afraid for the big changes you’ll have to wait a few million years… or look at transitional fossils ( http://www.transitionalfossils.com ) or occasions of observed speciation events ( http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html ), your choice.

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Yes, Judaism and Xianity are different, yet Xianity builds on the Old Testament. Without the Old Testament, the New has no meaning: no prophesy, no messiah, no original sin, no fall of mankind.

    You ignoring the Old Testament means that you are not really a Xian. A majority of Xian churches disagree with you because they don’t ignore the Old Testament.

    Perhaps you need to to re-read your bible, you know which book tht one is – it’s that thick book that has the Old Testament in the front.

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Sorry, Dennis, you just spent all your time saying the Old Testament doesn’t apply to you when your own leader, Jesus, quoted in your bible, says it does. Who should I believe? You or Jesus?

    Your “spiritual discernment” isn’t working very well. How can that be? Can you tell me the criteria to determine 1) how “spiritual discernment” works, and 2) whether the resulting interpretation being “spiritually discerned” is true.

    It seems that the criteria is up to the specific Xian church or individual, and there are thousands of Xian sects that disagree! That means that, at most, only one interpretation can be correct, or (most likely), all of the different Xian interpretations are wrong.

    As for the parables, there are Xians who disagree with you and believe that parables should be literally interpreted and apply to now, not the end times. What criteria do you use to determine you are correct when millions of other Xians disagree with your interpretation?

    As for muslims, there are millions living in America today, and millions more around the world, that are not killing non-believers and have never killed non-believers and never will kill non-believers. Your interpretation of their beliefs in the Koran are completely false. They, like you, are probably cafeteria religionists, ignoring parts they don’t like and keeping the ones they do.

    “you can see throughout the world that the Christian does not interpret the Bible the way you say we do.” Actually, I see that many Xians do interpret the bible that way – they’re cafeteria Xians who ignore parts they don’t like and keep the ones that they do like. How is that different?

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Didn’t answer my questions.

    Did you actually see Muslims kill Xians? How do you know that the murders were Muslims or the victims Xians? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? Photos, video, depositions?

    If you were present at these killings, how did you escape these murderers? Why weren’t you killed? Did you have guards? Why didn’t you try to stop these evil acts?

    How far away were you from the killings? How many people were there? What time of day did these events take place? Where, exactly, did this occur? Why should anyone believe you?

    See, you can make all the assertions you want yet I don’t have to believe you unless you actually have evidence. You claim to have been there but how can I know? Why should I take your word for it? You could be just another liar on the internet.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Why shouldn’t we speak differently to women than we do to men? You guys are getting so smart it’s getting stupid. I love treating women differently than men. So does my wife. And it’s not sexist. It’s sacrifice.

  • Dennis Irwin

    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/February/Terror-Group-Enjoys-Killing-Nigerian-Christians-/

    Yes. Don’t believe? Save your money….we’re going back next May.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Really? Because one of your boys say so? Please. He lives in Orlando…he’s not hiding from anybody. Tell him he’s a quack. Something tells me he’s more scientist than me or you. And it’s not like he’s the only one…do I need to list them? (see post below)
    And after 567 trillion years of evolution….why can’t I see one friggin’ thing evolving? Not ONE thing is in transition right now? It’s been on a bazillion year long journey and not ONE frigging thing has moved or is moving into another species in man’s lifetime? Where is it…I want to see it. Enough with agenda driven scientists and atheists…..let me see it!

  • Dennis Irwin

    Researcher and Mathematician I. L. Cohen: At that moment, when the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between Evolutionists and Creationists should have come to a screeching halt. …the implications of the DNA/RNA were obvious and clear. Mathematically speaking, based on probability concepts, there is no possibility that Evolution was the mechanism that created the approximately 6,000,000 species of plants and animals we recognize today.
    Evolutionist Michael Denton: The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle.
    Peter Saunders (University of London) and Mae-Wan Ho (Open University): From the claims made for neo-Darwinism one could easily get the impression that it has made great progress towards explaining Evolution, mostly leaving the details to be cleared up. In fact, quite the reverse is true.
    Evolutionist Dr. Colin Patterson: No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection. No one has ever gotten near it…
    Evolutionist Greg Kirby: If you were to spend your life picking up bones and finding little fragments of head and little fragments of jaw, there’s a very strong desire there to exaggerate the importance of those fragments…
    Evolutionist Lord Solly Zuckerman: Students of fossil primates have not been distinguished for caution… The record is so astonishing that it is legitimate to ask whether much science is…in this field at all.
    Evolutionist Tom Kemp: A circular argument arises: Interpret the fossil record in terms of a particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation, and note that it confirms the theory. Well, it would, wouldn’t it?
    Evolutionist Edmund Ambrose: We have to admit that there is nothing in the geological records that runs contrary to the view of conservative creationists…
    Paleontologist and Evolutionist Dr. Niles Eldredge, American Museum of Natural History: The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the biological world is the notion of Special Creation.
    Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, cosmologist, and mathematician, Cambridge University: I have little hesitation in saying that a sickly pall now hangs over the big bang theory.
    Thomas Barnes, Ph.D., physicist: The best physical evidence that the earth is young is a dwindling resource that evolutionists refuse to admit is dwindling…the magnetic energy in the field of the earth’s dipole magnet. …To deny that it is a dwindling resource is phony physics.
    Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, cosmologist, and mathematician, Cambridge University: The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 noughts after it… It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. …if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence.
    Molecular biologist Michael Denton: Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which—a functional protein or gene—is complex beyond…anything produced by the intelligence of man?
    C. Everett Koop, former U.S. Surgeon General: When I make an incision with my scalpel, I see organs of such intricacy that there simply hasn’t been enough time for natural evolutionary processes to have developed them.
    Mathematician P. Saunders and biologist M. Ho: We ourselves would be less concerned about falsifiability if neo-Darwinism were a powerful theory with major successes to its credit. But this is simply not the case.
    C. Martin in American Scientist: The mass of evidence shows that all, or almost all, known mutations are unmistakably pathological and the few remaining ones are highly suspect.
    Pierre-Paul Grassé, Evolutionist: No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of Evolution.
    Arthur Koestler, author: In the meantime, the educated public continues to believe that Darwin has provided all the relevant answers by the magic formula of random mutations plus natural selection—quite unaware of the fact that random mutations turned out to be irrelevant and natural selection a tautology.
    Norman Macbeth: Darwinism has failed in practice.
    Lyall Watson, Ph.D., Evolutionist: Modern apes…seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have no yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans…is, if we are to be honest with ourselves, an equally mysterious matter.
    Wolfgang Smith, Ph.D.: The Evolutionist thesis has become more stringently unthinkable than ever before…
    John Woodmorappe, geologist: Eighty to eighty-five percent of Earth’s land surface does not have even 3 geologic periods appearing in ‘correct’ consecutive order. …it becomes an overall exercise of gargantuan special pleading and imagination for the evolutionary-uniformitarian paradigm to maintain that there ever were geologic periods.
    Evolutionist S. Lovtrup: Micromutations do occur, but the theory that these alone can account for evolutionary change is either falsified, or else it is an unfalsifiable, hence metaphysical theory. I suppose that nobody will deny that is a great misfortune if an entire branch of science becomes addicted to a false theory. But this is what has happened in biology: …I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest deceit in the history of science. When this happens many people will pose the question: How did this ever happen?
    J. O’Rourke in the American Journal of Science: The intelligent layman has long suspected circular reasoning in the use of rocks to date fossils and fossils to date rocks. The geologist has never bothered to think of a good reply.
    N. H. Nilsson, famous botanist and Evolutionist: My attempts to demonstrate Evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed.
    Luther Sunderland, science researcher: None of the five museum officials could offer a single example of a transitional series of fossilized organisms that would document the transformation of one basically different type to another.
    Tom Kemp of Oxford University: As is well known, most fossil species appear instantaneously in the fossil record.
    Francis Hitching, archaeologist: The curious thing is that there is a consistency about the fossil gaps; the fossils are missing in all the important places.
    David Kitts, paleontologist and Evolutionist: Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them.
    Gary Parker, Ph.D., biologist and paleontologist and former Evolutionist: Fossils are a great embarrassment to Evolutionary theory and offer strong support for the concept of Creation.
    Wolfgang Smith, Ph.D., physicist and mathematician: A growing number of respectable scientists are defecting from the evolutionist camp. …moreover, for the most part these ‘experts’ have abandoned Darwinism, not on the basis of religious faith or biblical persuasions, but on strictly scientific grounds, and in some instances, regretfully.
    I. Cohen, mathematician and archaeologist: It is not the duty of science to defend the theory of Evolution, and stick by it to the bitter end—no matter what illogical and unsupported conclusions it offers…
    Ludwig von Bertalanffy, biologist: The fact that a theory so vague, so insufficiently verifiable, and so far from the criteria otherwise applied in ‘hard’ science has become a dogma can only be explained on sociological grounds.
    Malcolm Muggeridge, well-known philosopher: The theory of Evolution…will be one of the great jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has.
    Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London. The following quote was taken from a speech given by Dr. Patterson: Last year I had a sudden realization for over twenty years I had thought I was working on Evolution in some way. One morning I woke up and something had happened in the night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That’s quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. Either there was something wrong with me or there was something wrong with Evolutionary theory. Naturally, I know there is nothing wrong with me, so the last few weeks I’ve tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: Can you tell me anything you KNOW about Evolution? Any one thing? Any one thing that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of Evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time, and eventually one person said, “I do know one thing—it ought not to be taught in high school.

  • Gary

    So you are going to defend the liar now? After being provided evidence of his fraudulent claims you just deny it and still claim he is. You deserve to be swindled by the charlatan. Why don’t you sell everything you have and send it to the charlatan.

    Dennis said…”And after 567 trillion years of evolution….why can’t I see one friggin’ thing evolving?”

    Simple…you have never studied the sciences. The evidence is everywhere…but you are so profoundly ignorant you can not even comprehend the evidence. You actually have to do a little homework. And there are not REAL scientists, Christian or otherwise, who dispute some form of evolution and the approximate age of the universe. This is because when they study it they too recognize that the proof is literally everywhere…scattered throughout virtually all of the sciences. The only ones who dispute it are the ignorant fundamentalists and the frauds preying on the ignorance of said fundamentalists.

    You can claim your guy is a scientist till you’re blue in the face. The more you do the more of a laughing stock it makes you. His education is in forestry management, (absolutely nothing that is related to evolutionary or any other form of scientific study) and his pretend doctorate is from a fraud school that is nothing but a church group teaching unaccredited courses on their version of bible study. He earned the quack of a doctorate in about a year. Yeah right…LOL Go ahead…play the fool and continue to defend him.

    The process of evolution is a theory, not all the mechanisms of the process are understood so there are theories attempting to explain how it works. But the fact of evolution is undisputed within the sciences. (Believer and unbeliever alike) This is much like the theory of gravity. We know gravity exists…but the theory of the exact forces that make it work may not be fully understood. But only a profound fool would deny the existence of it.

    Seriously Dennis…read the book I recommended by a REAL Christian who is a highly respected scientists who actually worked and studied in real science. I don’t think you are stupid enough to continue this silly nonsense if you would let go of the false teaching that has so clouded your mind.

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Excellent! You can provide physical, objectively verified evidence to support your claims. Thank you.

    Here are a few articles on Xians burning children as witches:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/04/19/burned-at-the-stake-after-being-accused-of-witchcraft/

    There’s physical, objectively verified evidence that Xians are burning children as witches in Africa.

    Now can you admit you were wrong when you stated the “only killing … was the Muslims north of Jos killing Christians.”

    Can you admit that Xians are burning children as witches in Africa?

    (Since you provided physical, objectively verified evidence for this case, perhaps you’ll do the same for your god)

  • Gary

    First of all I am inclined to reject your unsourced claims about these men’s “expertise” given your track record thus far…LOL.

    However, when you look at what most of these people are actually saying, many of them are making the case for some form of design rather than randomness. I have no problem with such a statement. But your guy states the universe is around 6000 years old. Profound difference. (Profound ignorance) Of course many of the quotes on the page are badly ripped out of context to imply something the actual speaker did not. Others are also quacks.

    I notice you provided no source for your copy and pasted collection. At my university we would call this plagiarism and I would fail you in my class immediately. Here in the context of a discussion like this, such a tactic is usually employed when one knows their “evidence” has been refuted and they are hoping to avoid having that fact discovered.

  • Gary

    Let me provide an example of what I mean…

    http://www.skeptictank.org/files//evolut/missquot.htm

    Here you will see that what Dr. Patterson was saying has been badly distorted.

    From the page referenced….”It seems possible that he confuses two theories under the name of darwinism, the general theory of common ancestry or descent with modification, and Darwin’s special theory of mechanism, natural selection.”

    And summing up the fallacy of what you have done quite nicely…

    “The ‘Patterson story’ illustrates two common creationist
    enthusiasms: taking statements out of context, and refusing to recognize corrections when made.”

    Dr. Patterson is most certainly NOT aligned with creationists in the slightest. You see how simple it is to point out the obvious fraudulent case you are attempting to make? With a little time and interest…every statement on your plagiarized laundry list can be shown to be false, ripped out of context, or simply the deceptions of a fraud like your original “scientist”.

  • Peter Hinch

    12

  • Paul Little

    You’re on the cusp…


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