A bipartisan enemy of the people

Amy Traub writes about one of my hobby horses for The American Prospect: “Give Us Some Credit: States work to curb the financial background checks that can keep the unemployed out of work.”

Today, six in ten employers say that they check the credit histories of some or all prospective employees before making final hiring decisions. This traps many jobseekers in what workplace advocate Nat Lippert describes as a devastating catch-22: They can’t attain employment because of poor credit, yet they can’t pay off bills and improve their credit without income from a job.

There is no reason for any potential employer to use an applicant’s credit score as part of the hiring process. That is not what credit scores are designed to do and they cannot be made to serve any useful purpose when misused in this way.

The only logic to such misuse of credit scores by potential employers is an attempt to avoid litigation by refusing to take responsibility for one’s own decisions. That actually is part of why credit scores were invented and why their use has flourished, but it wasn’t employers who were supposed to be disowning all responsibility for their decisions, it was banks.

I want to quickly look at the various intended purposes of these credit scores — most of which aren’t really useful, some of which are inevitably destructive and harmful for all concerned — but first let me say a word about the politics of credit scoring.

This is not a partisan issue. Credit scores and their expanding, usurping application in every area of life are not an expression of either liberal or conservative ideas. Neither liberal nor conservative ideology offers reasons to defend this expanding, freedom-restricting practice. Both liberal and conservative ideology offer powerful reasons that this practice should not be allowed to control as much of our economy and our individual lives as it does.

Reigning in the pernicious influence of the credit scoring agencies ought to be near the top of any progressive agenda because it makes life even worse for the poorest, for minorities, for the powerless. And it ought to be near the top of any “tea party” type agenda because if you’re genuinely concerned about “the road to serfdom,” then it would be hard not to notice that for most Americans, most of the time, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion are doing more to promote serfdom than even the worst caricature of the IRS or the EPA.

We did not elect these credit agencies to rule over us. They were not established in our Constitution as a fourth, unchecked branch of government. Yet in our capacities as consumers or merchants, as employees or employers, they exert more influence and restrict our freedom far more than anything done by the mayors or councils of our towns, more than anything done by the governors and legislatures of our states. Most days more even than anything done by the Congress or the president. And while the Congress, president, governors, legislatures, mayors and councils are all — at least theoretically — democratically accountable and legally prevented from abusing their powers, the credit scoring agencies are not.

To say that the law or the government must not interfere with credit scoring agencies is not a “free market” argument and it is not a “small government” argument. These agencies have insinuated themselves throughout our markets, changing the way they would operate. And to say that the government — that is, the people — ought not to be allowed to reign them in is only to say that they ought to be allowed, unchecked, to replace that government and to dictate to the people.

This is not a partisan issue. It has two sides, but they are not distinguished by categories of liberal and conservative. They are distinguished by categories of those who profit from credit scoring and everyone else — by two categories of predator and prey.

Here, then, are the functions, the intended purposes for which credit scores were designed.

1. Credit scores provide a numeric — and therefore authoritative-sounding — pretense for charging poor people more than others are charged. For almost everything: rent, car insurance, auto loans, health insurance, you name it. The indispensable variables for credit scores are income and wealth. An irresponsible wealthy person who skips payments will have a lower score than a responsible wealthy person, and a responsible poor person will have a higher score than an irresponsible poor person — but responsibility, diligence and all those other virtues for which a credit score pretends to be a proxy are simply variables that qualify the core quantity of wealth and income. And that allows the credit scorers and their customers to pretend that poor people aren’t simply people with less wealth and lower income, but that they are all irresponsible, lazy and less moral, less worthy than those with higher “scores” due to greater wealth.

That’s evil on several levels. It takes money away from poor people — evil. It tells poor people they’re no good — evil. It encourages rich people to take money away from poor people and to treat those poor people as though they’re no good — evil, evil, evil.

2. Credit scores provide a numeric — and therefore seemingly objective — fig-leaf for privileging the Old Boys Network. It allows the privileged to pretend that they’re not privileged, casting a meritocratic sheen over that which was not earned and allowing those who have been granted privilege to exclude others while pretending they’re only enjoying that which is due to those objectively shown to have higher scores. Some will protest that they are not themselves members of the Old Boy Network, yet they still have excellent credit. And that proves my point, because their excellent “scores” still won’t gain them access to the Old Boys Network. You can’t earn your way into that because it’s not really a meritocratic distinction no matter how many magical “scores” one cites to pretend otherwise.

3. Credit scores excuse banks and other lenders from the expense and effort of actual due diligence. Banks — and even more so non-bank lenders like Countrywide and its ilk — eagerly replaced the time-consuming, hard work of due diligence with a mechanical reliance on credit scores. That promised a short-term savings, but it turned out to have massive, global, long-term costs. It turns out that an over-reliance on credit “scores” that were compiled with a deliberate disregard for accuracy (see below) leads to hundreds of thousands of bad loans and hundreds of thousands more dubious loans and no way to tell which is which. Suddenly realizing that they had billions in bad loans on their books and no sure way even to know which loans those were led to, well, 2007 and 2008, the Great Financial Crisis, the Great Recession, etc., causing real, tangible pain for hundreds of millions of people.

Banks and other lenders didn’t just rely on credit scores instead of actual due diligence in order to cut costs and expedite their willy-nilly pre-crisis lending spree. They also relied on credit scores because they provide a mask of objectivity that allowed them to claim that none of their lending decisions were actually decisions at all. We don’t make decisions, the lenders said, we simply apply “scores.” This, they felt, shielded them from litigation and blame. And in some cases it allowed them to claim that their discrimination was unbiased (“we’re not redlining that black neighborhood, they just don’t have high enough scores”).

4. Credit scores are a protection racket. Your credit scores are not accurate. Your credit scores were not designed to be accurate. It’s not that the credit rating agencies deliberately insert errors into their scores, but rather that they calculate them with a deliberate disregard for accuracy. To calculate them accurately would undermine one of the primary revenue streams of the credit rating agencies’ business model. You’ve seen the ads, you know the jingles. Credit rating agencies make money by charging a monthly fee to “allow” consumers to do their job for them. Pay a monthly fee to each of the three credit rating agencies and you will be permitted to attempt to ensure the accuracy that they cannot be bothered to attempt to ensure themselves because, if they did, then they couldn’t get you to pay them each a monthly fee.

The racket is exactly that transparent. And please note that this isn’t something I am accusing them of, this is something they explain themselves, explicitly, hundreds of times a day on the radio, on television and in advertisements all over the Internet. If you don’t pay them, they will not guarantee the accuracy of the credit score on which your ability to borrow or to purchase — or perhaps even to earn a living — depends. “Nice credit score ya got there. Shame if anything happened to it.” That’s exactly what they’re saying, brazenly, in all those ads.

(Another side effect of credit scoring, one that unlike the above is not, I don’t think, a matter of deliberate design, is that they promote innumeracy. The credit score is a magical number — magical in the sense that it purports to be a measurement, yet it is impossible to say what exactly is allegedly being measured or what the units of measurement are. That’s all “proprietary,” secrets denied to all but Level VIII Operating Thetans and Third Degree Masons who have been initiated into the gnostic mysteries of credit-scoring math. As a general rule, it’s not good for numeracy when magical numbers are allowed to replace actual numbers — numbers signifying actual, tangible things, such as dollars or inches or hours.)

Amy Traub points to some encouraging news in her article:

A growing number of states are also taking action to restrict the use of credit checks in employment. Hawaii, Illinois, Oregon, Washington, Maryland and Connecticut have passed legislation limiting the use of credit checks in hiring, firing, and promotions. More than 20 other states, including California, New York and Tennessee are considering bills. The moves are, in part, to help good employees … get jobs they deserve, but also address a more fundamental problem: There’s no real evidence that the practice is good for employers, either.

Companies justify the credit checks by saying they need some way to assess a job applicant’s reliability and character. Credit checks have been aggressively marketed to employers by for-profit credit bureaus to do just that. Yet it’s far from clear that running credit checks benefits employers. The only available rigorous study of employment credit checks concluded that there’s no correlation between credit history and job performance. Even industry representatives admit this. Eric Rosenberg, Director of State Governmental Relations for TransUnion, one of the three major credit reporting agencies, conceded: “…we don’t have any research to show any statistical correlation between what’s in somebody’s credit report and their job performance or their likelihood to commit fraud.”

The downside of Traub’s article is that she notes that companies making fantastic profits selling credit scores have been able to reinvest some of those profits into lobbying for exemptions and loopholes in that state-by-state legislation.

For the record, I have pretty good credit. My magic number is considered acceptably white high. The anger you’ve probably noticed in this rant of a post doesn’t arise from me yet getting burned personally by the expanding influence of credit scoring and the unelected, unaccountable, supra-market, supra-governmental agencies to whom we have surrendered so much power. I’m not waiting for that to happen. I’m trying to save time by getting angry now.

  • https://profiles.google.com/ravanan101 Ravanan

    Hi, person looking for a job here. I’m at about 8 or 9 months looking for a job. I have no credit history, since I was denied a credit card, have no student loans, etc. The idea that higher level positions are the ones the companies are really worrying about is bullshit. No job, not a single one, I’ve applied for making more than 14 dollars an hour has asked for the authorization to check my credit score. EVERY SINGLE JOB I have applied for making less than that has demanded that I authorize them access; they explicitly state that failure to do so will result in them immediately rejecting my application.

    For that matter, I’m incredibly overqualified for a minimum wage job, and I don’t have the work experience for even entry level jobs higher up. Entry level IT jobs are demanding 5 years work experience plus certifications. Given that that’s my one really salable skill that I’ve seriously developed, with three years freelance work (no supervisor, so I’m not counted as actually having work history), and another three years of coursework (coursework is, of course, not counted in experience though), and I can’t get past the bottom rung in HR? Yah no, the system is bullshit. I can’t break into a new field, I can’t enter into my own, I can’t flip burgers, and I basically have no significant assets, what the fuck am I supposed to do?

  • Anonymous

    Like, but “dislike.”

    Catch-22.  It’s the best kind of catch.

    I generally consider HR to be evil incarnate.  Remember when it was called “Person”-ell?

  • Lori

      The idea that higher level positions are the ones the companies are really worrying about is bullshit. No job, not a single one, I’ve applied for making more than 14 dollars an hour has asked for the authorization to check my credit score. EVERY SINGLE JOB I have applied for making less than that has demanded that I authorize them access; they explicitly state that failure to do so will result in them immediately rejecting my application.  

     

    I think there are a lot of people here who are so far removed from the reality of non-professional jobs that they don’t get this. I spent years in white collar, cube-dweller jobs and through a combination of very bad luck and rather poor decision-making in response to that bad luck I’m now in a position where I have to apply for any and every kind of job. Crap minimum wage jobs and temp agencies demand far more from applicants than my previous work every did. Not just meaningless credit checks, but background checks that the applicant has to pay for, whether they get the job or not. And then there’s the level of information you’re expected to provide about your work history. 

    Do you remember the name of every supervisor you ever had? Do you have current phone numbers for all of them? For any of them? Do you remember the exact dates of every job you’ve had? Not just the years or even the months, but the exact date? When was the last time someone asked you for any of that information? If you’ve never been asked or can’t remember the last time you were asked, count your blessings. Also, step off trying to justify the fact that many people have to deal with this shit every day in order to get jobs where they’re never in charge of anything, let alone in a position to embezzle millions. 

  • Anonymous

    I have a radical idea.

    It involves starting a company. (Or maybe a 501(c)(3)) A company which does absolutely nothing.  We will hire a whole bunch of people at whatever job they like. We’ll fill out tax forms for all of these people as “hourly employees” –  since we don’t actually DO anything we won’t actually have any work for you to do, but you can put it on your resume, and list us as a reference.  When those jackholes who won’t hire the unemployed see that you’re employed call us to verify we’ll go “Yep! Vie work(s|ed) here. Great employee.”  You’d probably want to wait until you exhausted your unemployment benefits to join up… I’m not sure how that would work.

    If we get enough people together for this, maybe we’ll get us a group health plan and start doing something a little more useful, like handling business services for people who would like to be freelancers, but don’t want it to look like they’re unemployed.

    Is it dishonest?  Sure, but the Ayn “take-what-you-can-and-fuck-everyone-else” Rand sauce for the corporation monster-goose is sauce for the employee too.

    I’m sure there’s some reason this is illegal – but I haven’t found it yet.

  • Anonymous

    I have a radical idea.

    It involves starting a company. (Or maybe a 501(c)(3)) A company which does absolutely nothing.  We will hire a whole bunch of people at whatever job they like. We’ll fill out tax forms for all of these people as “hourly employees” –  since we don’t actually DO anything we won’t actually have any work for you to do, but you can put it on your resume, and list us as a reference.  When those jackholes who won’t hire the unemployed see that you’re employed call us to verify we’ll go “Yep! Vie work(s|ed) here. Great employee.”  You’d probably want to wait until you exhausted your unemployment benefits to join up… I’m not sure how that would work.

    If we get enough people together for this, maybe we’ll get us a group health plan and start doing something a little more useful, like handling business services for people who would like to be freelancers, but don’t want it to look like they’re unemployed.

    Is it dishonest?  Sure, but the Ayn “take-what-you-can-and-fuck-everyone-else” Rand sauce for the corporation monster-goose is sauce for the employee too.

    I’m sure there’s some reason this is illegal – but I haven’t found it yet.

  • muteKi

    I agree, but I never got the impression that anyone here thought most positions actually should require a credit check like that. But that sort of shit is exactly why I hate filling out job applications. Mind you, I’m generally horrid at that sort of paperwork to begin with and try to avoid it whenever possible.

    Of course, I apologize in advance if your comment wasn’t necessarily directed at anyone here. In any case agree we need to find some way to get that out of the job application process, except in maybe a few extreme cases. Nobody going out to flip burgers or do customer service needs a credit check.

  • Lori

    My point is that not only do burger flippers and stock clerks not need a credit check, they also don’t need to provide the name of every supervisor they’ve ever had or the exact dates of jobs they had a decade ago. It’s all of a piece and it’s ridiculous and demeaning. 

    IMO, applying for jobs that require a resume is totally different. You create your resume, providing basic information like the company name, job title and dates of employment in a general way. Then you describe what you did and what skills you have. If they call you in for an interview they may (or may not) ask you for the contact information to verify your previous employment and/or 2 or 3 references. 

    In my previous work I had access to enough sensitive information that I was designated a corporate insider for stock trading purposes and I was never subjected to the kind of demeaning demands for information that I’ve had to deal with applying for temp work and nothing jobs that barely pay minimum wage. 

    When you apply for a white collar job you’re treated like a human being. When you apply for service and blue collar jobs you’re treated like an untrustworthy child. It is beyond horrible and anyone who hasn’t experienced it needs to understand that reality before talking about it. Not only about employer use of credit checks and background checks, but the whole system. 

  • Anonymous

    The last couple of white-collar jobs I applied for, earlier this year, definitely wanted the names of supervisors, exact dates of employment, etc. that you describe. It is no fun, it wasted several hours of my time going back through my files for no discernable purpose, and I strongly suspect the hiring decision was made on the basis of my resume before they even looked at any of that stuff.

    So the real question is, What information is sufficient to attest your personal responsibility to a prospective employer?

  • Lori

     So the real question is, What information is sufficient to attest your personal responsibility to a prospective employer? 

    I have no problem with someone asking me for contact information for my last couple of jobs to verify that I actually worked there. I have no issue with being asked to provide references. I have a huge problem with the ridiculous level of BS that goes into getting crappy jobs. If that’s spreading to higher level jobs that makes it worse, not better. 

    I think the major issue is what we mean by personal responsibility. I think that an employer has a right to know if I have the skills I’m claiming to have and if I’ll show up and actually do the work. In both my opinion and experience that information can best be obtained through interviewing that’s done not by some HR drone, but by someone who actually knows the position that the company is looking to fill. A few simple questions asked by someone with a clue can get you way more useful information than you can hope to get when clueless ass-coverer holds up a series of flaming hoops. 

    The rest of my life isn’t really my boss’ business. I think one of the (many) places that the whole corporate mess has gone so wrong is that people have convinced themselves that more information = better decision making. No one with any real world experience and an actual clue believes that. I’ve had good, responsible coworkers and I’ve worked with total fuck ups. I’ve had coworkers whose lives were a train wreck and coworkers who could have been nominated for sainthood. There’s virtually no relationship between the professional and personal categories. 

    Good workers with pristine lives? Sure, I’ve known plenty. 

    Good workers with f’ed up lives? I could give you a  list of those too, including several who were exactly the kind of people the flaming hoops are designed to filter out because they obviously can’t be trusted. Example: one of the best coworkers I ever had was a guy who had an active heroine addiction for most of the time I worked with him. 

    Bad workers with pristine live? Yuo. IMO these were actually the worst because no one wants to fire a nice person or even give the a strong enough reprimand to make a difference so you end up carrying them. Sucks. 

    Bad workers who were all around f’ed up? Them too. Prime example: the guy who was fired when he got caught trading child p0rn on the internet. When we went through his files to figure out how to cover his tasks until a replacement could be hired we found that he had basically been pulling it out his ass for years and that every task he was responsible for was a total mess. 

  • Lori

     So the real question is, What information is sufficient to attest your personal responsibility to a prospective employer? 

    I have no problem with someone asking me for contact information for my last couple of jobs to verify that I actually worked there. I have no issue with being asked to provide references. I have a huge problem with the ridiculous level of BS that goes into getting crappy jobs. If that’s spreading to higher level jobs that makes it worse, not better. 

    I think the major issue is what we mean by personal responsibility. I think that an employer has a right to know if I have the skills I’m claiming to have and if I’ll show up and actually do the work. In both my opinion and experience that information can best be obtained through interviewing that’s done not by some HR drone, but by someone who actually knows the position that the company is looking to fill. A few simple questions asked by someone with a clue can get you way more useful information than you can hope to get when clueless ass-coverer holds up a series of flaming hoops. 

    The rest of my life isn’t really my boss’ business. I think one of the (many) places that the whole corporate mess has gone so wrong is that people have convinced themselves that more information = better decision making. No one with any real world experience and an actual clue believes that. I’ve had good, responsible coworkers and I’ve worked with total fuck ups. I’ve had coworkers whose lives were a train wreck and coworkers who could have been nominated for sainthood. There’s virtually no relationship between the professional and personal categories. 

    Good workers with pristine lives? Sure, I’ve known plenty. 

    Good workers with f’ed up lives? I could give you a  list of those too, including several who were exactly the kind of people the flaming hoops are designed to filter out because they obviously can’t be trusted. Example: one of the best coworkers I ever had was a guy who had an active heroine addiction for most of the time I worked with him. 

    Bad workers with pristine live? Yuo. IMO these were actually the worst because no one wants to fire a nice person or even give the a strong enough reprimand to make a difference so you end up carrying them. Sucks. 

    Bad workers who were all around f’ed up? Them too. Prime example: the guy who was fired when he got caught trading child p0rn on the internet. When we went through his files to figure out how to cover his tasks until a replacement could be hired we found that he had basically been pulling it out his ass for years and that every task he was responsible for was a total mess. 

  • https://profiles.google.com/ravanan101 Ravanan

    No, but I know that it was once called that.

    Just consider the name. Human. Resources. You are a commodity. If you
    work at a factory, you are considered no different than the raw
    materials used in making your product. The department’s NAME is even
    dehumanizing.

    I recall that one of the greatest defenses you can give yourself if at
    the mercy of someone who seeks to harm you is to remind them of your
    humanity. It turns out that the vast majority of humans have a very hard
    time harming someone else they consider human, so attempts to harm
    people usually have to dehumanize them. Dehumanizing a person has little
    purpose BEYOND exploiting and/or harming them, and here we have the
    second greatest corporate entity completely devoted to the task (the
    greatest corporate entity would be, of course, marketing).

    I’ll grant that in the ideal situation, unions are monopolies, and like
    any monopoly add inefficiencies that reduce aggregate benefit, and
    should thus be abolished. Here’s the problem: That presumes that we have
    a PERFECTLY COMPETITIVE free market. A lot of libertarians seem to
    think we have one of those, but they’re delusional. Not only is there a
    huge disparity in power (nearly every industry is made up of a small and
    shrinking oligopoly), the entire notion of a patent is antithetical to
    this system, and there is government interference in the system not to
    retain the competitiveness of the market, but to help further entrench
    those that have virtually always been enfranchised. Given this
    situation, you better damn well give me a monopoly working for MY side.

    @9db4ebb24860e53d2ddb4e85f42a4ab2:disqus

    You might point out the situation here in California, where the
    institutions where you can redeem the GI Bill are being stripped, and
    that they are trying to completely dismantle pensions. Also, you might
    point out that adjusted for inflation, military pay has barely increased
    while soldiers have been expected to pay much more of their own
    expenses out of pocket, including things like food (!), post-combat medical treatment (!!) and even basic field supplies like kevlar (!!!),
    and it’s much harder to get it (today, even being wrongfully accused of a
    crime can be a bar to enlistment, and is a titanium wall inside 50 feet
    of concrete to commission). Also, according to the Congressional Budget
    Office, if we end up with a government shutdown, the soldiers will
    basically be among the first to lose their paychecks.

    @LoriAnnK:disqus
    Do you remember the name of every supervisor you ever had? Do you have current phone numbers for all of them?
    Yes but only because I only have one to list. I think what it seems like is that we are expected to have to provide a full resume to do anything. So much of the application process these days is spent on everything that you would expect on a resume: professional references, work history, catalogues of job skills. And those goddamn tests. Like 80% of retail jobs now force you to take “personality assessment tests” that effectively double to triple the application time and which are always either so gameable as to be meaningless, or so byzantine as to be incoherent. “Do you have any regrets?” What the fuck kind of question is that for determining whether I can be a good employee?

  • Anonymous

    Wow, the application for a DoD security clearance isn’t even that detailed.  At least at the secret level, you only have to account for the past 10 years, and I’m pretty sure you only have to give months and not exact days for employment history.  So you could be qualified to have access to classified government materials and still be ineligible to a temp firm.  That’s ridiculous!

  • Lori

     So you could be qualified to have access to classified government materials and still be ineligible to a temp firm.  That’s ridiculous!  

    The most ridiculous part is that you’re not even exactly deemed ineligible to work for the temp agency. If you can’t remember all the dates (some only go back 10 years other want everything) and you leave them blank you have an incomplete application and they won’t deal with you. If you just make something up so the app is complete you’ve technically lied on your application. It’s complete, so you can get assignments, but if anything goes wrong they’ll use your lie to bust you. 

    It’s purely a hoop that they make you jump through to act as a combination of filter for the insufficiently determined and a CYA in case anything goes wrong. 

  • Shay Guy
  • Anonymous

    I’ve always wondered who did the FreeCreditReport.com commercials, and how they sleep at night doing work that good for what amounts to organized crime.

    It’s like winning an Effy for Satan.  ”Hell for society.”

  • Anonymous

    Oh the irony! Trans Union add next to this blog post: http://www.flickr.com/photos/docaustin/5885221459/

  • http://redwoodr.tumblr.com Redwood Rhiadra

    The only form of serfdom they seem to be able to imagine is government-imposed serfdom.

    Tea Partiers are largely authoritarian followers. They desperately, desperately want to be serfs (of corporations)

    As for credit score, mine is zero. Because I have done the “responsible” thing since I was 18 and lived entirely within my means, without borrowing. Which means, of course, paying 4 times as much for an apartment deposit, being unable to access payment plans at the dentist (all work has to be paid for up front), etc.

    A friend of mine who lost his job last year was refused job after job, including *temp* jobs, because of his low credit score (which he has because he lost his job) – the temp agency even required him to provide his score to clients. He’s a Linux administrator – there’s absolutely no reason for the employers to need his credit information. He and his family had to sell everything they own this week and are driving to Arkansas today to move in with family.

  • Anonymous

    Ben Stein lost his job at NYT over being a pitchman for one of those sites.  I think the fact that he got a check was enough to ease his conscience.  This is assuming that Ben Stein has a conscience, of course.

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    since we don’t actually DO anything we won’t actually have any work for you to do, but you can put it on your resume, and list us as a reference.  When those jackholes who won’t hire the unemployed see that you’re employed call us to verify we’ll go “Yep! Vie work(s|ed) here. Great employee.”  

    Brilliant.  I actually had an idea for something like that, for the purpose of letting new college grads get some ‘experience’ on their resumes.

    I strongly suspect it’s breaking SOME law, but I have no idea which.

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    This is assuming that Ben Stein has a conscience, of course.

     

    After he made “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”, I wouldn’t tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.  :-P

  • Lori

     A friend of mine who lost his job last year was refused job after job, including *temp* jobs, because of his low credit score (which he has because he lost his job) – the temp agency even required him to provide his score to clients. He’s a Linux administrator – there’s absolutely no reason for the employers to need his credit information. 

    Any company that is structured and run in such a way that a temp Linux administrator can steal without immediately getting caught has far worse problems than hiring a temp Linux administrator with bad credit. But taking personal responsibility, like paying taxes, is for the little people. 

  • We Must Dissent

    Is this Ben “He can’t be guilty; economists don’t commit crimes” Stein we’re talking about?

  • Lori

    Is this Ben “He can’t be guilty; economists don’t commit crimes” Stein we’re talking about?  

     
    That would be the one. 

    Stein really is just loathsome. He’s an incompetent economist. His stupid movie clearly demonstrates that he’s incapable of rational thought. He’s classist, racist and sexist. 

    His entire life peaked at the moment he uttered the words, “Bueller. Bueller.” and he still feels like he has the right to judge others. Just a horrid, horrid person. 

  • Anonymous

    Like 80% of retail jobs now force you to take “personality assessment
    tests” that effectively double to triple the application time and which
    are always either so gameable as to be meaningless, or so byzantine as
    to be incoherent.

    You’re being far too kind to them.  I’d say there’s a good chance that the tests actively select for bad employees.  I know when I applied for Hollywood Video (do they even still exist?), I was deemed akin to Attila the Hun and utterly unhireable.  While, at the same time, I’d just been given a raise and an excellent review at my main job.  (I was trying to get a part time job for extra money – and I know I was deemed Attila the Hun because I had a friend who worked there.)  Meanwhile, the same Hollywood Video was merrily hiring a whole string of people who stole from them, skipped out on work, and were otherwise terrible employees.  But they were willing to lie to pass the test and I wasn’t.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    You’re being far too kind to them. I’d say there’s a good chance that the tests actively select for bad employees. I know when I applied for Hollywood Video (do they even still exist?), I was deemed akin to Attila the Hun and utterly unhireable. While, at the same time, I’d just been given a raise and an excellent review at my main job. (I was trying to get a part time job for extra money – and I know I was deemed Attila the Hun because I had a friend who worked there.) Meanwhile, the same Hollywood Video was merrily hiring a whole string of people who stole from them, skipped out on work, and were otherwise terrible employees. But they were willing to lie to pass the test and I wasn’t.

    After college I got a job at a Game Crazy store, subsidiary to Hollywood Video, with my home store a walled-off section of a larger Hollywood outlet.  I know exactly the screening tests that you refer to, and I had to take them as well.  It was filled with ambiguously worded questions, like “True or False: I don’t need to fake being polite.”  Politeness is not a matter of deception, so the question is meaningless.  But I think that the test is more generally used to screen for people who can accept the kind of punishment that corporate overlords can drop down on them and will take it without complaint. 

    This divides their roster into two kinds of employees, doormats like me who have genuine acceptable answers to the screening, or unscrupulous employees who are willing to lie on their screening to get in.  Managers are not allowed to use any of their own judgement in this area.  This also understandably is why the company has a culture of active distrust of its employees.  We had proceedures like having to check each other’s bags before we left for the night, more security cameras focused on the employees than on potential shoplifters, etc.  And even that was still not enough because some of those less scrupulous employees would still find a way to embezzle money or merchandise.  They all get caught eventually, of course, but not before secreting away and spending they took.

    It was one of the many reasons why I was glad when I left.  The sad thing is, the way the job market is going now, I would willingly go back to working there, only the company itself pretty much no longer exists, a victim not only to the economy and emerging technologies like steaming media, but also to its own internal mismanagement. 

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    With people like Ben Stein, I am inclined to ask myself the “stupid or evil?” quandary.  Though in Stein’s particular case, I am starting to believe it is a little of both.

  • ako

    I’m not saying that this applies to all jobs, just those
    where there is significant opportunity for fraud. The guy selling TVs on
    the floor at BiggestBuy? No. The guy in charge of the secure-items
    “cage”? Maybe more so. The assistant manager who counts out the tills
    and makes the night drop? Yeah, that’s more in the neighborhood. The
    manager who submits employee timesheets and gets a bonus for not paying
    overtime? Oh, I think we definitely want to know if he’s desperate for
    money.

    It doesn’t matter if single mom gets trust money or alimoney if she
    has three credit cards, all are close to their lending limit, and all
    show as “currently paid” for the last six months. That is not
    necessarily a person I want near my company checkbook; that’s a person
    who is one bad day away from the kind of serious desperation that leads
    to theft. One unplanned car breakdown, an uninsured illness, broken
    water heater, or some other accident that costs more than the cash in
    the bank.

    Again, I don’t care if I’m hiring for a floor clerk at a mall
    clothing store. Doesn’t matter to me if I’m hiring a salesman. But a
    cash-handler, someone with access to high value, easily stolen
    inventory…

    The picture you’re painting here is…not as bad as using credit scores for every job (although in practical terms, I think other people are right about how the CYA element leads to this practice becoming widespread, once it’s allowed at all).  It is still a picture that means anyone who’s had a run of economic bad luck is going to suffer severely limited job prospects, seriously reducing their chance to get out of that hole.  If the single mother can work as a floor clerk, but is barred from management positions (or even being trusted near a cash register), because employers read “probable thief” into her credit history, she’s not likely to ever get the cash in the bank to be able to pay for her own car repairs or broken water heaters.  Unless she can get professional training as an electrical engineer or something (difficult to afford for someone already on the economic margins), she’s stuck, and even her children will have a much harder time getting the sort of educational and social advantages that lead to economic security.

  • ako

     Like 80% of retail jobs now force you to take “personality assessment
    tests” that effectively double to triple the application time and which
    are always either so gameable as to be meaningless, or so byzantine as
    to be incoherent. “Do you have any regrets?” What the fuck kind of
    question is that for determining whether I can be a good employee?

    I hate those things, and would hate them considerably more if my career depended on them.  Even without that factor, I tend to end up either struggling not to subconsciously game them (after looking at a test and instantly spotting the answer obviously desired, it is quite hard to set that aside and be completely objective about my own answer), or fighting the questions.  (Even on the introvert/extrovert thing, which has more science than most of these tests I want to answer everything with “Sometimes!” or “It depends – what sort of social interaction are we having?”  So I keep testing as marginally extroverted, but having everyone around me go “No, that’s wrong, you like to read a lot so MUST BE AN INTROVERT!”)

  • ako

     Like 80% of retail jobs now force you to take “personality assessment
    tests” that effectively double to triple the application time and which
    are always either so gameable as to be meaningless, or so byzantine as
    to be incoherent. “Do you have any regrets?” What the fuck kind of
    question is that for determining whether I can be a good employee?

    I hate those things, and would hate them considerably more if my career depended on them.  Even without that factor, I tend to end up either struggling not to subconsciously game them (after looking at a test and instantly spotting the answer obviously desired, it is quite hard to set that aside and be completely objective about my own answer), or fighting the questions.  (Even on the introvert/extrovert thing, which has more science than most of these tests I want to answer everything with “Sometimes!” or “It depends – what sort of social interaction are we having?”  So I keep testing as marginally extroverted, but having everyone around me go “No, that’s wrong, you like to read a lot so MUST BE AN INTROVERT!”)

  • Anonymous

    Ugh, I hate that Myers-Briggs nonsense with a passion.  It really is completely meaningless.  But the last place I worked actually offered a 2-day seminar on it, so managers could try to fit their employees into little categories and decide how to treat them based on it.

  • Anonymous

    If you need a hand, FearlessSon, I am both large and usually unshaven. Stuff me into a dime-store  suit and I can stand behind you and look menacing.  Great way to get people to pay up.

    Whoever checks your credit score and denies you a job on that basis is NOT SOMEONE YOU WANT TO WORK FOR.You are aware that this is 2011, and not 1995, right?  I’m not saying I’d take a job fluffing gay porn stars- I’m saying I’d have to see the salary offer. I’m one of those young people with a useless degree, soon to be one useless degree, and one slightly-less-useless  degree.  I don’t have much experience, and I gotta eat too. Any job would be welcome, even one with an asshole boss.  

    Also, this is why I don’t have a credit card.  I have a debit card- I can’t overspend it, and there’s no interest.  A bad credit score is infinitely preferable to masses of debt. MORE masses of debt, I should say. 

  • Hawker Hurricane

    I wish I could find a link to the study about “Honesty Tests”.  The test had three groups of ‘volunteers’: Students at the local university, Catholic Nuns working at a retirement home, and inmates at the local state prison.  If you scored the “Honesty Test” as the creator intended, you found out that the most honest people were the inmates, and the least honest were the Catholic Nuns.  Why?  Because when asked “Have you ever stolen from a employer”, the Nuns told the truth, no matter how minor (“I walked off with a pen!  Forgive me!”) while the inmates lied.  Admitting to a crime was proof you were dishonest…
     
    Bizarrely unrelated story…
    King Frederick the Great of Prussia was touring a prison.  The prisoners, recognizing him, begged him for pardons, proclaiming thier innocence… except for one, who sat miserably in his cell.
    “Why do you not beg for release?” the King asked.
    The prisoner answered, “Your Majesty, I deserve to be here for I am guilty of horrible crimes.”
    The King called for the Warden.  “Release this guilty wretch immediately before he contaminates these innocents!”

  • Lori

    I’m actually pretty sure that in Stein’s case the answer is “evil”. 

  • Anonymous

    I had this HR fetishizing boss who wanted me to take the Meyers-Briggs once.  I asked him what he wanted to know about my personality, and I would be happy to tell him.  He couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t give him the four letter code that neatly encapsulated my entire sense of self.  I told him it was inefficient.

    Sample Personality Test:
    Personality Test: At a party, are you browsing the books in the bedroom or dancing naked on the coffee table?
    Subject: The book thing.
    Personality Test: You are an introvert.
    Subject: What’s an introvert.
    Personality Test: A person who browses the books in the bedroom at parties.

    We ended up not taking the test.

  • We Must Dissent

    Because when asked “Have you ever stolen from a employer”, the Nuns told
    the truth, no matter how minor (“I walked off with a pen!  Forgive
    me!”) while the inmates lied.  Admitting to a crime was proof you were
    dishonest…

    This reminds me of how schools are classified as “persistently dangerous”, at least where I am. It’s not based on some objective measure; it’s based on how many disciplinary actions are taken concerning violent and potentially violent incidents. That is, if you suspend or expel students for fights or weapons, that counts against you; if you sweep it under the rug, then your school stays classified as “safe”.

  • Anonymous

    I’m actually pretty sure that in Stein’s case the answer is “evil”.

    Yeah, he had a game show once, doesn’t that make him smart? ::naive expression::

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Lipton/100001171828568 Jeff Lipton

    Yeah, he had a game show once, doesn’t that make him smart?

    “Win Ben Stein’s Money”.  If he wasn’t coached on the answers beforehand, then he is pretty smart.  Or at least educated. 

    Depends on how hard the FCC was looking at the show.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    That is alright.  I actually already have something in mind.  I can modulate my voice pretty well, so I was going to call him from a phone which he does not have the number for, and say in a husky Godfather immitation, “I am calling in regards to a mutual ‘business associate’ of ours, to whom you owe a great deal of money. This associate has been a very patient man, but even he has limits…”

  • Njuf

    I would have to say contrary to all rebuttals, that this is 1) an invasion of privacy 2) appears just to be another method of discrimating against qualified but undesired applicants. 
    @Enigma32:disqus 
    Somewhere along the way, America has become so civilized that it is ultimately uncivilized. 

    Those who participate in such scrupulous policy are only creating the larger atmosphere that brings about theft.  If you will not hire me, for whatever reason you may proclaim, you are pushing me into an arena that has me pointing a gun at you, telling you to give me the money.

    As a matter of fact, there are a great deal of policy that are implemented that are creating the atmosphere of crime, yet people just dont see it, because they dont want to see it or because you oft cant see a thing until you yourself have experienced it first hand…..

    Whats the solution?  Self-employment of course.  Damn you and your job, I can make it without you. I dont want to scan my finger to get in your building, nor place my eye up against a damned optical contraption, nor am i given to the desire of having a man being able to cut my livelyhood because i didnt kiss his hind parts the way he would desire.

    I would rather make 30k through my own devices than to make 180k at be at the mercy of beauracratic and trifling practices such as the one in question…..

    Freedom? lol. America hasnt been free since 1776.  I cant even walk through the airport without some out of shape social misfit getting a handful of my gonands. Go Figure.  But i suppose that as long as people are afraid of thier own shadows these things will continue to get worse.  I have one last phrase for you America…stop being afraid of everthing, its awfully quere.

  • Njuf

    I would have to say contrary to all rebuttals, that this is 1) an invasion of privacy 2) appears just to be another method of discrimating against qualified but undesired applicants. 
    @Enigma32:disqus 
    Somewhere along the way, America has become so civilized that it is ultimately uncivilized. 

    Those who participate in such scrupulous policy are only creating the larger atmosphere that brings about theft.  If you will not hire me, for whatever reason you may proclaim, you are pushing me into an arena that has me pointing a gun at you, telling you to give me the money.

    As a matter of fact, there are a great deal of policy that are implemented that are creating the atmosphere of crime, yet people just dont see it, because they dont want to see it or because you oft cant see a thing until you yourself have experienced it first hand…..

    Whats the solution?  Self-employment of course.  Damn you and your job, I can make it without you. I dont want to scan my finger to get in your building, nor place my eye up against a damned optical contraption, nor am i given to the desire of having a man being able to cut my livelyhood because i didnt kiss his hind parts the way he would desire.

    I would rather make 30k through my own devices than to make 180k at be at the mercy of beauracratic and trifling practices such as the one in question…..

    Freedom? lol. America hasnt been free since 1776.  I cant even walk through the airport without some out of shape social misfit getting a handful of my gonands. Go Figure.  But i suppose that as long as people are afraid of thier own shadows these things will continue to get worse.  I have one last phrase for you America…stop being afraid of everthing, its awfully quere.

  • Njuf

    Perhaps your proofreaders eye should have informed you that you are missing punctuation between I and admit, smart ass. 

    Also, you should never begin a sentance with the word “and”, it’s improper.  Before you judge someone, perhaps it would be best suited that you yourself were free of error.

    Can one American please display an ounce of humility?  Pride is an awful stinch for others to have to bare, especially if you dan’t measure up to the same principals that you are judging others by.

  • Anonymous

    I have one last phrase for you America…stop being afraid of everthing, its awfully quere.

    Are you using a word dictionary.com doesn’t know, or are you misspelling ‘queer’? If the latter, I’m queer. Fuck off.

  • Genewitch

    i have a credit score of 0. I have no postive, nor no negative items on my credit report, last i checked. I am 30, and i have had a score of 0 my whole life. My criminal record is clean, my rental history is clean.

    Under what pretense would an employer A) need to check my credit score and B) Glean anything useful from it?

    People laugh at me and say “how are you going to buy a house” – maybe some of us don’t consider owning a house to be the end all be all of life. I don’t want, need, or use a cell phone, smart or otherwise. You read that right. A credit score of zero and no CELL SERVICE.

    Obviously i am not to be trusted, right?

  • Genewitch

    i have a credit score of 0. I have no postive, nor no negative items on my credit report, last i checked. I am 30, and i have had a score of 0 my whole life. My criminal record is clean, my rental history is clean.

    Under what pretense would an employer A) need to check my credit score and B) Glean anything useful from it?

    People laugh at me and say “how are you going to buy a house” – maybe some of us don’t consider owning a house to be the end all be all of life. I don’t want, need, or use a cell phone, smart or otherwise. You read that right. A credit score of zero and no CELL SERVICE.

    Obviously i am not to be trusted, right?

  • Genewitch

    You do realize you’re promoting the idea of thoughtcrime, right?

    You’re a horrible person and you should re-evaluate your life and your goals as a human. Maybe now’s the time to stop worrying so much about your company’s money. and you know, pay your freaking employees the proper living wages so they aren’t in dire straights living paycheck to paycheck every week.

    Your partisanship is blatantly obvious, here.

  • Genewitch

    You do realize you’re promoting the idea of thoughtcrime, right?

    You’re a horrible person and you should re-evaluate your life and your goals as a human. Maybe now’s the time to stop worrying so much about your company’s money. and you know, pay your freaking employees the proper living wages so they aren’t in dire straights living paycheck to paycheck every week.

    Your partisanship is blatantly obvious, here.