Hail to thee, our alma mater

A couple of recent posts elsewhere have me thinking back to my childhood as a student at a private, fundamentalist Christian school in New Jersey.

Stuff Fundies Like just finished “Back to School Week,” ranging from kindergarten to college. I particularly liked this bit, from the post on high school:

By the time a young fundamentalist has reached high school the focus of their spiritual instruction has narrowed down to two basic points. 1) Not having sex with anybody and 2) Finding God’s perfect will for their life. The first one is accompanied by tales of terrible tragedy that will befall them if they DO the second is accompanied by tales of terrible tragedy if they DON’T.

Yep. But to be fair, this wasn’t just something I was taught in high school — my church youth group was teaching the exact same thing.

My alma mater was founded in 1949, and thus predates both of the two major contributors to the growth of private Protestant schooling. The first of those came in 1954 with Brown vs. the Board of Education. The Supreme Court ruling ending school segregation sparked an explosion of new private Christian schools throughout America — especially, but not exclusively, in the South.

Since I often poke fun at Timothy Christian School for teaching me creationism and for literally using Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth as a textbook, let me here offer my old school a bit of praise. It was ahead of its time in promoting and embodying racial integration. “Strength in diversity” is not a phrase that’s often associated with Christian fundamentalists, but here’s  TCS’ Web page boasting of the diversity of its student body. Go you Timothy Tigers.

The second big wave of growth for Christian schooling came later and, as Warren Throckmorton reminds us, was driven by that tireless advocate of separate Christian education, Rousas John Rushdoony.

Yes, that’s the same R.J. Rushdoony who created “theonomic reconstruction” and also did more than anyone else to promote the spread of the dominion theology that so many conservatives are today claiming never existed and/or never had any real influence. Some of these same revisionists and denialists now mocking what they describe as “paranoia” or “liberal conspiracy theories” about dominionism are themselves graduates of schools inspired by Rushdoony’s push for Christian schooling. And some of them are now the parents of children attending those schools.

Rushdoony realized that the theocracy (or “Christocracy”) he desired was not a realistic hope in the short term of a generation or two. He accepted that democracy and pluralism would take many decades to be “reconstructed” and replaced with Christian dominion. And so he planned for the long term, urging Christians to create separate schools where children could be raised without the liberal propaganda of constitutional democracy and equal rights for error and truth.

Throckmorton provides a summary of this view, excerpted from a book by Rushdoony’s protege (and sometime son-in-law) Gary North:

As a tactic for a short-run defense of the independent Christian school movement, the appeal to religious liberty is legitimate. Everyone who is attempting to impose a world-and-life view on a majority (or on a ruling minority) always uses some version of the liberty doctrine to buy himself and his movement some time, some organizational freedom, and some power. …

So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political, and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God. Murder, abortion, and pornography will be illegal. God’s law will be enforced. It will take time. A minority religion cannot do this. Theocracy must flow  from the hearts of a majority of citizens …

But the revisionists rush to remind us that the existence of hundreds of Christian schools inspired by this thinking is no reason to worry that this nonexistent fringe ideology is in any way influential. Just because these inconsequential outsiders are now trying to sentence gays to death in Uganda doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to worry about them wanting to sentence gays to death here. Just because they say their aim is to deny “the religious liberty of the enemies of God” and just because they happen to view most people as “the enemies of God,” doesn’t mean that you should be afraid of them trying to erode religious liberty. All things considered, there’s very little cannibalism in the British Navy. …

  • P J Evans

    even before that: the acquisition of Florida from Spain or whoever officially ‘owned’ it.

  • P J Evans

    even before that: the acquisition of Florida from Spain or whoever officially ‘owned’ it.

  • Lori

    Certainly you also lost my respect, gringa de mier.da

    This implies that she had previously had your respect, so I have to ask–why?

    Her contribution to a discussion about the applying the death penalty to the intellectually disabled was:

    Thing is, Lori, when
    it comes to IQ tests, you’d be hard pressed in the south to find a death row
    murderer who didn’t come in as at least borderline retarded.

    How smart should you have to be to get get the
    needle? 

    That might as well have said, “I’m A Troll!!!” in so goody font that’s more sparkly than Edward and blinks or some such nonsense.

    If this gathering was IRL she’d be the drunk using her outside voice.

    She seems to think that I’m her nemesis. Or she’s mine. It’s hard to tell, but either way it’s just sad. I actually wouldn’t care if every thread people allow her to derail didn’t instantly being boring as hell.

  • Beatrix

    Pendejo grande, Mountainguy, why doesn’t Washington run the whole continent?  Is it because the Brazilian armay was so scarey?  They made the U.S. Marines cry in their beds?

    Furthermore, I am in favour of giving California back to Mexico and sealing the borders.  You think I’m kidding?  Here’s I life lesson, so take notes:  Noone is ever really kidding.

    And here’s a joke from P.J. O’Rourke.  A Mexican and a Texan good-ole-boy are having a drink together.  They’re pleasantly drunk.  The Texan says:  “My friend, why you guys hate us so much, anyway?”  The Mexican says: “Mi amigo, it’s not that you took half our country.  It’s that you took the half with all the roads.”

    And nothing will fix that.  Now listen to some Adam Carolla (a man who insists he is not even a conservative), chosen nearly at random, by me, just now:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2faztXgGvAM

  • Anonymous

    Reposting from the Richard Neuhaus thread:

    So I had a bit of time on my hands and put together this compilation, all italics are direct quotes from Beatrix’s comment history.

    “I have never lied on this blog, not once, not about anything, and you can’t show I did.”

    The Lying Liar Lies – A Tale of a Troll

    “Breivik was not a Christian”
    The Lying Liar Lies
    “At the age of 15 I chose to be baptised (sic) and confirmed in the Norwegian State Church” 
    “I consider myself to be 100 percent Christian.” 
    - Breivik in his Manifesto

    This thing about “Dominionism” is a made up farce, a lame, manufactured talking-point, and this was predicted weeks ago by one of the smartest bloggers on the web.So “Dominionism”, which noone ever heard of a month ago, suddenly just means “anything fundamentalist I don’t like”
    The Lying Liar Lies

    I didn’t accuse him of “hating” anybody, or all protestantism.
    The Lying Liar Lies
    I think your average age is 21, you commenters; furthermore, your host, who clearly doesn’t read his own comments section, hates American Protestantism; which is fine, and even understandable; but me, when I dislike a religion (say Islam) I don’t join it, let alone dedicate a religious blog to how I’m a member of it but I hate it.

    Paul Krugman is a clown with no record of being right on anything
    The Lying Liar Lies

    Beck didn’t steal your money or anyone else’s.  I haven’t watched him since he was on CNN – not a dedicated fan – but apparently the man is very canny, and not just canny about money.  I mean, when has he been wrong?  Ever, really?
    The Lying Liar Lies

    There have been more abortionists mudered in America on Law and Order than in reality.
    The Lying Liar Lies
    So I checked. A poster on the Straight Dope forums claims that there have been 5 cases of abortion doctors being murdered on L&O and its spinoffs: 3 on L&O proper, 1 on SVU and 1 on Criminal Intent. My own check of episode listings suggests that this may be overcounted by 1; while I found three episodes of L&O featuring abortion violence, in one of them (S1E12, “Life Choice”) the deceased was an anti-abortion protester.
    The actual record of anti-abortion violence in the US is as follows: 
    - 8 murders, of which 4 were doctors, 2 receptionists, 1 clinic escort and 1 security guard – at least 9 people (including at least one more doctor, not counting Dr. Tiller who was later shot dead in a separate attack) injured in shooting or bombing attacks  
    - at least 16 attempted murders, 3 kidnappings, 150+ assaults 
    - at least 41 bombings, 173 arson attacks, 91 attempted bombings or arsons – over a thousand death threats and bomb threats 
    - something on the order of three thousand cases of trespass or vandalism
    So by my count, the original statement is false: the number of abortion doctors murdered on Law and Order and its spinoffs does not exceed the number of actual fatalities in the US, and considering the total record of violence is not especially disproportionate.If you want to dispute these figures, I’d suggest producing a list of the specific Law and Order episodes that you are claiming.
    Andrew G. in reply to Beatrix

    Christians offer no terroristic threats to anyone anywhere on the planet
    The Lying Liar Lies

    According to the simple and literal meaning of the word, and its standard application, a genocide is not completed and accomplished if there are survivors.
    The Lying Liar Lies

    Lee Harvey Norway is not “Christian-identified”.  Neither was Timothy McVeigh and neither was Hitler.
    The Lying Liar Lies

    I am the one and only me, and I’m gone after this night.

    TLDR: THE LYING LIAR LIES

  • Anonymous

    Useful tip for getting disqus to respect linebreaks: If you encase the whole post in pre tags, then edit them out after you post it appears to keep them in.

  • Guest-again

    I like humor as much as anyone, and Steyn? What a loon, with all his ‘Eurabia’ jokes. Though unlike some, Steyn is a real Canadian, though he doesn’t stop him from being a real idiot.

    ‘If someone mentioned terrorism in Europe, you would probably have an idea about the size of the threat and who’s responsible.
    It’s big, you would think. And growing. As for who’s responsible,
    that’s obvious. It’s Muslims. Or if you’re a little more careful with
    your language, it’s radical Muslims, or “Islamists.”

    After all, they were at it again just in the past month. On Dec. 11,
    a 28- year-old naturalized Swede – originally from Iraq – injured two
    people when he blew himself up on the way to a shopping district. And
    on Dec. 29, police in Denmark said they thwarted a plan by five Muslims
    to storm the office of a Danish newspaper and kill as many people as
    possible.

    So the danger is big and growing, and Islamists are the source. Right?

    Wrong, actually.
    The European Union’s Terrorism Situation and Trend Report 2010
    states that in 2009 there were “294 failed, foiled, or successfully
    executed attacks” in six European countries. This was down almost
    one-third from the total in 2008 and down by almost one-half from the
    total in 2007.
    So in most of Europe, there was no terrorism. And where there was terrorism, the trend line pointed down.
    As for who’s responsible, forget Islamists. The overwhelming
    majority of the attacks- 237 of 294 – were carried out by separatist
    groups, such as the Basque ETA. A further 40 terrorists schemes were
    pinned on leftist and/or anarchist terrorists. Rightists were
    responsible for four attacks. Single-issue groups were behind two
    attacks, while responsibility for a further 10 was not clear.
    Islamists? They were behind a grand total of one attack. Yes, one.
    Out of 294 attacks. In a population of half a billion people. To put
    that in perspective, the same number of attacks was committed by the Comité d’Action Viticole, a French group that wants to stop the importation of foreign wine.
    Now, I don’t want to overdo the point. Europe has major problems
    with the integration of its Muslim populations and the threat of
    Islamist terrorism is real. It’s also important to note that the number
    of attacks does not indicate the full extent of the danger, since
    Islamists, unlike most terrorists, seek to commit indiscriminate
    slaughter.
    But even with these caveats, the data clearly demonstrate that
    common perceptions about terrorism in Europe are wrong. To see why that
    matters, think back to 2005.
    When rioting exploded in France’s heavily-immigrant suburbs, many
    conservative pundits dismissed claims that the violence had something
    to do with poverty, unemployment, and exclusion. No, what mattered is
    that the rioters were Muslim.
    “This is an early skirmish in the Eurabian civil war,” wrote Mark Steyn in the Daily Telegraph.
    “If the insurgents emerge emboldened, what next? In five years’ time,
    there will be even more of them, and even less resolve on the part of
    the French state. That, in turn, is likely to accelerate the
    demographic decline. Europe could face a continentwide version of the
    “white flight” phenomenon seen in crime-ridden American cities during
    the 1970s, as Danes and Dutch scram to America, Australia, or anywhere
    else that will take them.”
    Steyn noted that his gloomy British readers often sent him e-mails
    that ended with the observation “fortunately I won’t live to see it.”
    Steyn snatched away even this cold comfort. “As France this past
    fortnight reminds us, the changes in Europe are happening far faster
    than most people thought,” he wrote. “Unless you’re planning on
    croaking immediately, you will live to see it.”
    In 2006, Steyn expanded his jeremiad into the book America Alone. It was a huge hit, a New York Times bestseller,
    and its influence among conservatives – Americans in particular – is
    hard to overstate. Even George W. Bush is a fan. In Republican and Tea
    Party circles, Steyn’s vision of an enfeebled, infertile Europe overrun
    by fecund, violent Muslims is almost a truism.
    But half a decade has passed since Steyn declared the outbreak of
    the “Eurabian civil war.” And yet, there are no waves of bombings. No
    armies of bug- eyed jihadis. No pale-faced boat people bobbing about
    the North Atlantic in rusty scows.
    Oh, there are incidents. I cited two above. And for people like
    Steyn, that is more than enough. Tell a true story; treat it as
    typical; draw a scary conclusion: This is the standard operating
    procedure of alarmists.
    Steyn hates to be called an alarmist, as he made clear in the
    preface to a later edition of America Alone. He is merely a realist, he
    says. But then he goes on to write this: “In 2007, some larky lads were
    arrested in Germany. Another terrorist plot.” What set this one apart
    were the terrorists’ names. They weren’t Mohammed, or Muhammad, or
    Mahmoud. They were “Fritz” and “Daniel.” Why, they were … deep breath
    … native-born Muslim converts! “All over the world, there are young
    men raised in the Multi-Kulti-Haus’ of the West who decide their
    highest ambition is to convert to Islam, become a jihadist, and
    self-detonate.”
    That year happened to be a particularly bad one for Islamist
    terrorism in Europe. There were four Islamist attacks. Four. Out of a
    total of 583.
    The following year there were zero. In 2009, as we have seen, there was one.
    Mark Steyn has a new book in the works, apparently. Something to do
    with the end of civilization. Given his track record, this is grounds
    for optimism.’
    http://www.dangardner.ca/index.php/articles/item/90-remember-that-eurabian-civil-war

    For anyone more interested in reading further about this sort of utterly delusional Eurabian fantasy, this gives some good oversight -
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html

    Some people prefer living in their enemy filled fantasy world, or else they just enjoy laughing at people all the way to the bank. In Steyn’s sad case, it is probably both, since it is likely hard to be such a public laughing stock when anyone with even the tiniest bit of awareness of reality can read what he wrote over the years, and the probability that their amusement is also fueled in part by derision is reliable in a way that his written predictions are all provably false.

    But then, some people prefer living in their fantasy, because ‘la-la, la-la, can’t hear you’ is a proven method to remain 100% accurate. Steyn remains a fairly good role model to follow, actually, if that is your plan to handle the truth while ignorantly spouting off about things that are provably false.

    The danger is when someone take such poisionous lies and then uses them as the basis for the mass murder of children. Delusions aren’t always just laughable – sometimes, they lead to truly sickening evil. Especially when someone becomes so attached to hatred based on lies that the need to act becomes overwhelming, and the result is dressing up as a police officer to murder people coming to you for help.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    I’ve noticed the “ZOMG DEBT” zombies screamed bloody murder in 1979, were silent from 1981 to 1992, started screaming again in 1993 and were silent from 1994 to 2008, and are now screaming again.  It seems that they scream loudest at the presidents that raise it least.

    Now, @f305e66ad083753e6456f25d678aa735:disqus , stop inventing liberal conspiracy theories. There is obviously another commonality in those dates that you’re not accounting for.

    One of the many pain-in-the-arse refrains we endured during our right wingers last stretch of government was “interest rates are always higher under Labor”, citing a 1991 peak. Whenever someone pointed out that an even higher peak was reached *the very last time* the Libs had the Treasury, all they got was the claim repeated again, louder. There’s a very legitimate reason for graphs to always start in 1983…although it escapes me at the moment.

    The end of the story is that a very large segment of the population believes that interest rates are, in fact, always higher under Labor.

    Even though we have a Labor government now, and interest rates are lower than when they came in.

    GRAPHS MUST START AT 1983 AND END AT 2007!

  • Beatrix

    Malypollyon, were you the one with whom I went over, like, this exact same thing before?

    Again – and I am simply repeating myself here – the difference of opinion on Breivik is just that.  I do not claim to have read his manifesto; however, I believe I’m familiar, at this point, with the relevent bits.  This evil psychopath (who would be executed in a civilized country BTW, and I’m no enthusiastic fan of the death penalty) was not what I believe any reasonable person would consider a christian.  He was confirmed in the (ludicrously statist, essentially atheist) Norwegian state church at 15?  And he was 33 when he murdered nearly a hundred people (BTW, one potential with the simplest weapons training and almost any kind of firearm could likely have taken him out.  As it was, he roamed aroud killing like a monster in a slasher flick for an hour and a half at least.  Fuck gun control.)

    He wasn’t my definition of a Christian.  I don’t consider a man who did not attend any Church and had no relationship with anything to do with Christianity a Christian.  He not only wasn’t a Christian, but he most definitely had no relationship with any Christian terrorist groups, because there are none.  Contrast this with the Fort Hood shooter, who openly prosletyzed, attended Mosques, hung out on on radical Islam forums and screamed Allahu Akhbar! before he opened fire on his own “brothers in arms”.

    Breivik was not my definition of a Christian or any reasonable person’s definition of a Christian.  Now I don’t mean he was a bad Christian – not propery understanding of the Gospel and such – because that’s not my department.  I mean he just wasn’t one.

    But maybe you disagree.  Maybe you can prove Berivik was a Christian.  Maybe you could convince me you’re right.  But, since nobody is misrepresenting the facts, then we are discussing a difference of opinion, i.e. opinion regarding the interpretation of facts.

    Facts and opinion are different.  Somebody may disagree with you, or me, or anyone.  This does not imply that all opinions are equal, but it does not in and of itself make anyone a liar.  A liar falsifies information.  Is it really impossible for the left to distinguish principled dissent from fiendish dishonesty?

    As for the rest, there have been remarkably few killings of abortionists in the US, considering how horribly controversial the issue is.  This is awesome, because it proves how civilized and decent Americans are, as do the almost non-existant incidences of hate crimes (a legal category which should not exist, but whatever) against Muslims in American within the last decade.

    (p.s. – how are any of you planning to commemorate 9/11 tomorrow?)

    Just off the top of my googling, this is fun (and it mentions Ugandan Christians, which I know are a current concern of y’all): http://www.fivefeetoffury.com/2011/07/ha-ha-white-supremacists-rank-way-under-muslims-for-terrorist-body-count/

    What else with you?  “Genocide”?  I say the Holocaust was a partial “genocide”, and I think that if you asked the next ten people you met they’d agree with me.  I know the U.N. passed a resolution on the meaning of the word.  I don’t give a shit.  I despise the fucking U.N., and I don’t delegate the rightto thm to define words for me.  I’m not French (look up Academie Francaise), I don’t think that way.

  • Beatrix

    Hitler was batptized Catholic.  Personally, I was baptized twice.  If I go on a killing-spree, or assume near absolute power and start comitting genocide and invading Poland, it’s as an agnostic.  McVeigh said he was an agnostic.  He never said anything else. People who don’t identify with Christianity, don’t attend religious services, don’t attempt to mould their personal philosophy to anything Christian – they are not Christian.  Hitler was not a Christian.  Actually, the Nazis invented a sort of ersatz “paganism”. Do you know nothing of this?

    Anyway, the head of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party was a hard-line leftist.  I have no need to apologize for him.

    I wish to God, truely, Malpollyon, that we still lived in age of duels.  I’d challenge you to one, for “giving me the lie”, as they used to put it.  We lost a lot, as a society, when we gave those up.

  • Guest-again

    Ted Bundy, another provable liar being used by people with an agenda that overrides any need to actually care about the truth, or even think that other people are aware of it. Who, what a coincidence, also just happens to be a mass murderer who warned against something which wasn’t actually true.

    Bundy liked cheerleader magazines, that was the ‘porn’ he possessed. And after spending a few minutes looking on the net, this seems to cover it pretty well -
    ‘Part of Welsome’s article dealt with Dr. Dobson’s interview of serial killer, Ted Bundy. I saw part of the interview
    in a video from the television special, “Natural Porn Killer”. I am
    amazed that Dobson swallowed Bundy’s hook, line and sinker attached,
    and ran with it, but Dobson did have an agenda: pornography. He was
    part of the Meese Commission’s report on pornography and violence against women. He got what he wanted and Ted Bundy helped him.

    Bundy,
    ever the showman, the darker incarnation of P. T. Barnum, who said,
    “There’s a sucker born every minute,” found suckers in Dr. Dobson and
    Florida State Attorney John Tanner and his wife, Marsha. Bundy gave
    them what they wanted, his word that he wouldn’t have become a serial
    killer if he hadn’t been exposed to hard core porn. Dr. Dobson, fresh
    from visiting peep shows and XXX-rated movie theaters in New York City,
    was convinced Bundy talked about the kind of porn he experienced while
    researching pornography for the Meese Commission. It isn’t what Bundy
    meant.

    Bundy was talking about the old pulp detective stories. Playboy and magazines of that kind did not exist. However, Bundy’s porn of choice was cheerleader magazines
    sold to and full of pictures of teenage girls, hardly what one would
    consider pornography. Dr. Dobson left Bundy and faced the media outside
    the prison walls and told them Bundy had repented his crimes and named
    pornography as the culprit. What Bundy was unable to do with his
    showmanship in the court room when he defended himself or by his
    letters to other serial killers and promises to lead investigators to
    each and every one of his 100+ murder victims he accomplished with his
    last grandstand play by choosing Dr. Dobson for his last televised
    interview.

    We believe not always what is true but what we want
    to hear. Dr. Dobson got what he wanted, an indictment on pornography
    made by an accomplished liar and charming sociopath who wanted to give
    his daughter and stepson a way to remember him that didn’t include the
    horror he left the families of his victims. When cheerleading magazines
    can be characterized as pornography and even the Sears catalog can be
    used to fuel sexual fantasies, where do we draw the line? Is
    pornography the real culprit or merely an easy target for a witch hunt?’
    http://fixnwrtr.blogspot.com/2006/09/ted-jim.html

  • Tom S

    It is my opinion that Benito Mussolini wasn’t a fascist. You say he was, and he says he was, but I say he wasn’t. You can’t prove that he was a fascist, and it doesn’t make me a liar to say he wasn’t, because it’s just an opinion and those can’t be lies. So I won’t have you going around besmirching the fine name of fascism by associating it with someone who was clearly crazy.

  • Tom S

    Everyone take what I say seriously and bother to respond to me, right now. Otherwise I’ll just keep saying things over and over and over and over and over and

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    That flood page is pretty funny.

  • Beatrix

    Oh, take it up with Steyn, (who BTW sounds considerably more English than I do) you prat.  Be grateful you’re such a nonentity he won’t be bothered to slice-and-dice you.

    Death-bed demographics, genius.  And a suicidal Western culure.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    If the US is in no way colonial, can someone please tell US tobacco and pharmaceutical companies to stop putting pressure on US representatives to fuck up other countries’ health systems as much as their own in the name of free trade? Thanks so much.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    executed in a civilized country

    Contradiction in terms

  • Guest-again

    ‘there have been remarkably few killings of abortionists in the US’
    Snake, don’t get too twisted with this, but let’s just explore the killing of a Christian in a church by a terrorist -
    ‘Dr. George Tiller, whose Kansas women’s clinic frequently took
    center stage in the U.S. debate over abortion, was shot and killed
    while serving as an usher at his Wichita church Sunday morning, police
    said.Wichita police said a 51-year-old man from the Kansas City,
    Kansas, area was in custody in connection with the slaying of Tiller,
    who was one of the few U.S. physicians who still performed late-term
    abortions.
    The killing, which came about 16 years after Tiller
    survived a shooting outside his Wichita clinic, took place shortly
    after 10 a.m. Sunday at Reformation Lutheran Church. Officers found the
    67-year-old dead in the foyer, police said.’
    http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-31/justice/kansas.doctor.killed_1_dr-george-tiller-wichita-police-wichita-clinic?_s=PM:CRIME
    So, a Christian was gunned down, in a church, which means that his murderer couldn’t possibly be a Christian, at least according to some sort of black mamba logic.

    But wait, there is this concerning the background of the killer -
    ‘David Leach, publisher of Prayer & Action News, a magazine that opines that the killing of abortion providers would be justifiable homicide,
    told reporters that he and Roeder had met once in the late 1990s and
    that Roeder at that time had authored contributions to Leach’s
    publication.[43][44][45] Leach published the Army of God
    manual, which advocates the killing of the providers of abortion and
    contains bomb-making instructions, in the January 1996 issue of his
    magazine.[46]
    A Kansas acquaintance of Roeder’s, Regina Dinwiddie, told a reporter
    after Tiller’s murder (speaking of Roeder), “I know that he believed in
    justifiable homicide.” Dinwiddie, an anti-abortion militant featured in
    the 2000 HBO documentary Soldiers in the Army of God,
    added that she had observed Roeder in 1996 enter Kansas City Planned
    Parenthood’s abortion clinic and ask to talk to the physician there;
    after staring at him for nearly a minute, Roeder said, “I’ve seen you
    now,” before turning and walking away.[47]

    Roeder’s former roommate of two years, Eddie Ebecher, who had met
    Roeder through the Freemen movement in the 1990s, told a reporter after
    Tiller’s murder that he and Roeder had considered themselves members of
    the Army of God. Ebecher said Roeder was obsessed with Tiller and
    discussed killing him, but that Ebecher warned him not to do so.
    Ebecher, who went by the nom de guerre
    “Wolfgang Anacon,” added that he believed Roeder held “high moral
    convictions in order to carry out this act. I feel that Scott had a
    burden for all the children being murdered.”[‘
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_George_Tiller#Roeder.27s_background

    Just because a murderer of a Christian just happened to feel affiliation to an outfit called ‘Army of God’ (I’m sure even a snake can figure out which god is meant) which just happened to be printing instructions of how to kill and maim doesn’t mean that those anti-abortion people are Christians, if I understand the snake logic correctly.

    Of course, I would pay money to see the black mamba go to an anti-abortion rally, search out the operation rescue types, and then tell them they aren’t Christians. Because that would be truly inspired trolling, snake.

  • Beatrix

    I don’t know.  I’m no particular fan of the death penalty, but Breivik spent an hour and a half or two hours roaming around cold bloodedly dispatching dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of completely innocent and helpless very young people, just kids, most of whom were no doubt screaming pleading for their lives.  I think he should die.  Why not?  He is obviously an irredeemable psychopath.  If you’re of a religious bent, then let God sort him out.  We’re all God’s problem in the end, n’est pas?

    Now in a really sane jurisdiction, he would have been dispatched on the scene with a bullet, and the murder-count would have been much lower.

    Anyway, don’t worry.  The Norwegians have no death penalty, or even life imprisonment.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    So, regarding the OP and sidetepping the repetetive bullshit below, I’ve long been interested in what makes people significantly change their worldview. Personally, the way I see the world and the opinions I therefore hold have certainly developed, matured and added nuance over time, but there’s been no huge shift. I like hearing from people who did undergo a very large shift–what brought it about? Why do you think it turned out the way it did?

    Lunch meat has already shared her experience–thanks for that; it’s good to hear. If anyone else wants to throw in a thought, I’m eager to hear it.

  • Guest-again

    ‘who BTW sounds considerably more English than I do’
    Except Steyn is Canadian – which is what the black mamba also claims, though these days, the snake seems to feel a bit more at home in the UK, it seems. And you are the one shilling for Steyn’s overpriced joke items, not me.

    And still putting up links to garbage, of exactly the sort that motivated a blond blue-eyed mass murderer of children.

    You should really think about the sort of company you are keeping, snake, and the sort of thoughts, words, and deeds which come from the hate filled sewers you seem so eager to drag others into.

  • Beatrix

    Hey, if the pre-Obama U.S. health-care system is so evil, and socialism so cool, how come we can’t find doctors to work in Canada?  How come we have raffles in towns (this is very common, not a freak event) to determine who will be allowed appointments with the local doctor?  How come we keep importing doctors (and nurses, etc.) with impossibly dodgy credentials who basically don’t speak English? 

    If you were in Emergency, would you want a Doctor, or at least a nurse, who spoke English?

    And “Colonial” means “has colonies”.  The US has no colonies and, as I’ve said, it could certainly have had them (I’m not sure if that’s still true) had it wanted them.  Trade policy issues have nothing particularly to do with “colonialism”.  Good Lord, words have meanings.

  • Anonymous

    “Good Lord, words have meanings.”
    Like “Genocide” you mean?

  • Beatrix

    Re. Bundy and Dobson – ah, another pathetic lefty strawman.  As La Shaidle from the great Five Feet of Fury said:  “Cuz you know you can trust Ted Bundy.”

    http://www.fivefeetoffury.com/2009/07/2965/

  • Beatrix

    They have meanings.  Not necessarily ones that are dictated by the *spit* U.N.

    You notice how you’re not talking like the Wife of Bath (I bet you probably totally knew who that was without looking it up)?  Language evolves.

    Are you worried about the people who claim there never was a Holocaust?  How many Muslims, in North America and around the world, even believe the Holocaust occurred?  How many believe the Mossad orchestrated 9/11?

    But by all means, let’s endlessly discuss how many people have to die in a genocide before it can be considered a genocide.  What with the *spit* U.N. and all.

  • hagsrus

    “If you were in Emergency, would you want a Doctor, or at least a nurse, who spoke English?”

    I suppose it would depend on the language with which I was most comfortable. In my particular NYC neighborhood that could equally well be Spanish, Korean, Russian, Greek, Portuguese – even Irish!

  • Beatrix

    Steyn was born in Toronto.  His mother is Belgian.  He went to what North Americans would refer to as a private school in England.  His accent is standard recieved (i.e. posh) and to me sounds slightly northern – he flattens his vowels a little.  He worked in England and lived partly in Quebec.  He now lives in New Hampshire and travels a great deal.  And he’s so brilliant that if you met him you’d brobably just burn to a crisp.

    I hate the effing U.K..  My own accent is sort of mid-atlantic.  I’m not crazy about it but there you go.  Look, why don’t you try reading Steyn instead on defaming him?  Here’s his website: http://www.steynonline.com/

    He did not inspire Lee Harvey Norway, fool.  “Blond blue-eyed mass murderer of children”?  As his name may indicate, Steyn is at least partly ethnically Jewish, so take your ugly neo-Nazi smears elsewhere. The monster Breivikquoted everyone from Gandhi to John Stuart Mill.  Are you the one I once dissmissed as disconnected and incoherent?  Well then I agree with me.  Enough from you.

  • Beatrix

    Steyn was born in Toronto.  His mother is Belgian.  He went to what North Americans would refer to as a private school in England.  His accent is standard recieved (i.e. posh) and to me sounds slightly northern – he flattens his vowels a little.  He worked in England and lived partly in Quebec.  He now lives in New Hampshire and travels a great deal.  And he’s so brilliant that if you met him you’d brobably just burn to a crisp.

    I hate the effing U.K..  My own accent is sort of mid-atlantic.  I’m not crazy about it but there you go.  Look, why don’t you try reading Steyn instead on defaming him?  Here’s his website: http://www.steynonline.com/

    He did not inspire Lee Harvey Norway, fool.  “Blond blue-eyed mass murderer of children”?  As his name may indicate, Steyn is at least partly ethnically Jewish, so take your ugly neo-Nazi smears elsewhere. The monster Breivikquoted everyone from Gandhi to John Stuart Mill.  Are you the one I once dissmissed as disconnected and incoherent?  Well then I agree with me.  Enough from you.

  • hagsrus

    `I don’t know what you mean by “glory,”‘ Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”‘
    `But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument,”‘ Alice objected.
    `When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
    `The question is,’ said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
    `The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master – - that’s all.’
    Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They’ve a temper, some of them — particularly verbs, they’re the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole of them! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!’
    `Would you tell me, please,’ said Alice `what that means?`
    `Now you talk like a reasonable child,’ said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by “impenetrability” that we’ve had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you’d mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don’t mean to stop here all the rest of your life.’
    `That’s a great deal to make one word mean,’ Alice said in a thoughtful tone.
    `When I make a word do a lot of work like that,’ said Humpty Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.’

  • Beatrix

    Yes, Lori, I think you’re my nemesis.  I look forward to our fight to the death on an abandoned clock tower.

    Actually, no.  You just sort of annoy me.  You’re so smarmy.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    If I went to the ED and the doctor or nurse spoke with an Irish accent, I’d be feeling better right away :)

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    The murdered children offending you again? From their graves, or are you holding a grudge from when they were still alive?

  • Beatrix

    That’s nice.  What if they were only fluent in Punjabi? 

    Anyway, re. Lori, my nemesis (I always wanted one of my very own!  Also a baby brother) – what do you imagine is the IQ of the average person on death row?  Higher than average?  Lower?  If there is a line for testable intelligence* below which a person is so mentally disabled that s/he may be considered not responsible for his/her actions, why is it not a relevant point of discussion?

    *I have huge problems with IQ testing as an absolute measure of “intelligence”, whatever that is, BTW. 

  • Beatrix

    Words surely don’t mean whatever I want them to mean, but they don’t mean whatever the U.N. says they mean either.

    You’ll understand, ’cause the left is real good at nuance and subtlety

  • hagsrus

    Why, thank you!

    Bless your heart and sleep well.

    Good night, children, everywhere.

  • Guest-again

    ‘Well then I agree with me.’
    Glad to see someone does.

    Because you know, some Puerto Ricans would like to discuss the statement ‘The US has no colonies.’ Among them, the Puerto Ricans who can’t elect a representative or senator, for example. (Nice overview available, for anyone interested – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Puerto_Rico#United_States_Rule_.281898.E2.80.93present.29)

    As for mid-atlantic – well, maybe, but more likely mid-Atlantic American in your writing, since you still haven’t seemingly learned the correct English spellings of word, the ones a well educated citizen of either Canada or the UK would use. (Hint – it is kind of a glaringly obvious tip off that you aren’t what you claim to be, black mamba.)

    So, my curiousity piqued by the idea of Canadian health care raffles, I entered the following terms in google, ‘Canadian health care raffles,’ and the 10th result was this article -
    ‘A $550,000 double-lung transplant is keeping a Delaware man from
    receiving the care he deserves. Chuck Campbell, 46, was diagnosed with
    Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD) in 2005. The disease is
    characterized as being the longterm or permanent narrowing of small
    airways, which make it difficult to breathe.
    After being told that he was a candidate for a doublelung transplant, the insurance company told Campbell
    they would only cover $80,000 of the $550,000 needed for the surgery.
    Because of this, he no longer qualified for the surgery due to his lack
    of funds.

    Disappointed, Campbell decided he would hold a raffle selling 40,000
    tickets at $50.00 apiece. Prizes from the raffle would consist of a
    brand new Mercedes-Benz and a luxurious townhouse in Miami, Florida.
    Selling this amount of tickets would give Campbell a grand total of $2
    million.

    “$1 million would go to pay for my operation, $400,000 would go to
    pay off the prizes and the balances,” says Campbell. “After all
    expenses are paid, the rest would go to the Chamber Foundation to be
    used for local charities.”

    Would Campbell’s case have been different if he were covered under Ontario’s Health Insurance Plan?

    “There are eight hospitals in Ontario that perform that type of
    surgery,” says Zolt Magda, a local family physician. “OHIP does cover
    most, if not all of the cost for the transplant.”

    Twenty thousand singlelung, double-lung and combined heart–lung
    transplants have been performed in the past 25 years; approximately
    1,400 new transplants are performed annually.

    However, Magda says not all patients with respiratory diseases are
    candidates for a lung transplant. OHIP covers operations based on
    specific conditions but also offers a better health plan than most.

    Four point three transplants per-million population were performed in Canada, compared to three point six in the US.

    “OHIP remains to be one of the best health care plans in Canada,” Magda said. “I thank my lucky stars for having it.”
    http://ignitenews.mohawkcollege.ca/92/health-envir/man-raffles-everything-to-improve-quality-of-life/

    Hmm – the Canadian system performs more transplants, and it was an American holding the raffle, staring at almost a half million dollar bill if he wanted to keep breathing (and paying for health insurance from a company obviously unconcerned about whether he could or not).

    But stories about Americans not being able to afford health care are so commonplace that really, who wants to read another one? But at least one popped out, according to google, when you go searching for Canadian health care raffles. And for the record, replacing ‘Canada’ with ‘Nova Scotia’ made not one whit of difference in terms of finding such a health care raffle – the most likely reason by far being because they don’t exist.

    Looks like you are ahead of the fantasy curve on this one. And as a suggestion, you should abandon the Steyn idiocy of Eurabia at this point – some of the true believers in that deranged fantasy turn out to be blond blue eyed mass murderers of children. As if anyone with even the merest familiarity with European recent history would expect anything else – though some people actively shill such hate filled filth because mounds of dead bodies is something they think necessary to improve the world. You should really try harder not to be like that, snake.

  • Beatrix

    ???

    Anyway, g’night, Sarge.

  • Anonymous

    Genocide was a word invented in 1944 *to describe the Holocaust*. It’s the type specimen, the Holocaust was a Genocide because the word “Genocide” was coined by Raphael Lemkin to mean “events like the Holocaust”. This isn’t a matter of *opinion*, it’s a matter of *historical record*.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

    Tell a true story; treat it as typical; draw a scary conclusion: This is the standard operating procedure of alarmists.

    Hey, it’s Dr. Gail Dines!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

    Tell a true story; treat it as typical; draw a scary conclusion: This is the standard operating procedure of alarmists.

    Hey, it’s Dr. Gail Dines!

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    See you round. Sleep well.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    Tell a true story; treat it as typical; draw a scary conclusion: This is the standard operating procedure of alarmists.

    I did my income tax return the other week. Turns out last year I paid almost 25% of my income in income tax (flat rate equivalent). Aware of that fact, I did not choose to knock back a pay rise or move to a lower taxing country.  I continue to go about my life, happy and free.

    True story.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    And now the question: because my true story does not have a scary implication*, is it therefore atypical?

    *except for die-hard right wingers

  • Anonymous

    Hmmm. So you’re argument on defence spending boils down to “America is powerful, so it should have a powerful military” … but isn’t that military a very large part of it’s power?!

    Well, in the short-term at least – for if something isn’t done, it’ll be one of the contributing factors toward America’s decline.

    “The debt wasn’t close to 14 trillion 5 years ago.  This has all got something to do with WWII?”

    This is an ambit claim, that the debt was not close to 14 trillion 5 years ago. If you’d bothered examining the charts that PJ Evan kindly provided above, you have seen the following: in 2000 the debt was a tad under 6 Trillion. By 2005 (Still Bush the Lesser in command!) it was 9 Trillion, which is a trendline that, if extended, would give us around 14 Trillion now.

    So you seriously wish to argued that the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Tax cuts (see the charts regarding the afect of those too!) were not largely responsible for the Debt blowout?

    As for the last part of that quote from yourself .. and here is a perfect example of how you DO NOT READ what people
    type: I didn’t mention WWII … I have no idea what it has to with
    WWII. Not my argument.

    I’ll kindly ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. I need it to be clear of blockages for my girlfriends’ (and wife to be) sake >.>

  • Anonymous

    Yes, Lori, I think you’re my nemesis.  I look forward to our fight to the death on an abandoned clock tower.

    Actually, no.  You just sort of annoy me.  You’re so smarmy.

    Pot .. meet kettle … o.O

  • Anonymous

    Hitler was batptized Catholic.  Personally, I was baptized twice.  If I
    go on a killing-spree, or assume near absolute power and start comitting
    genocide and invading Poland, it’s as an agnostic.

    So, you can be a Christian until you do something ‘unchristian-like’ – I agree, but only to a degree. Who decides what traits are the appropriate traits to mark one’s behaviour as Christian? What of the differences across branches of Chritianity?

    Where I think the real issue rises though – if it is okay for Christians, then the same merit must be granted Moslems. Just because a sect of hateful people conducted unforgivable terrorist acts, doesn’t mean the fit the definition of Moslem from the wider Moslem community.

    It’s the double standard that bites! Christians do terrible things … no longer ‘Real’ Christians. Moslems do terrible things, suddenly represent every Moslem across the planet!

    That kind of view sweetie, is called bigotry. Assuming that word still means what it means in your personal dictionary of ‘what words really mean.’

  • Izzy

    I sort of think we’re being unfair, guys.

    I *like* snakes.

    Seriously, is there no way to ban this waste of carbon? She’s never added anything to a conversation.

  • Izzy

    Well, it was David Bowie for me, but I’m with you.

    Le sigh. And there’s no damn decent fanfic for it either. Um. Not that I’ve looked. Or anything.

  • Izzy

    Yeah. Except a whore provides a service that people *want*.

    Attention telemarketer, maybe? Attentionvangelist? Attensionary?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Canada has actually been extremely lucky in that the best provincial governments have been able to do is nibble around the edges of the health-insurance system here in Canada. It’s still nearly political suicide to talk of going totally private, especially since the Charlie Foxtrot of the system down in the USA continues to be very educational.


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