Satanic baby-killers

They’re everywhere.

I should probably warn you that the article linked to and quoted below includes nearly every horrifying trigger that one might imagine.

Will Storr recounts “The mystery of Carole Myers“:

When she was found dead at 41, Carole Myers left a statement saying she had suffered Satantic child abuse at the hands of her parents. But did she?

No. No she did not. But she did suffer horrific abuse at the hands of credulous manipulators who posed as counselors.

Their enthusiasm for signs of the demonic other — evidence of the evil conspiracy that must surely be lurking behind the confusing, frightening, threatening modern world — led them to reimagine her childhood into a nightmare straight out of a Jack Chick tract.

That’s not hyperbole. The nightmare is, in fact, out of a Jack Chick tract — those tracts are the origin of the memories these counselors helped poor Myers “recover.”

I arrange an interview with Valerie Sinason who, according to the records, saw Carole for psychotherapy biweekly for eight months in 1992. I want to know if she’ll fit the description Professor Loftus gave of the therapists she’s come across in legal cases who have involved false memory – that of a highly credulous believer in satanic abuse who has a tendency to believe ritual damage in patients.

And that is exactly what Sinason proves to be.

Sinason arrives, in her north London counselling room, tanned and relaxed in a loose smock, dark leggings and trainers. There’s a chaise longue with a crowd of teddies resting in its crook. On the floor, shoved beneath a table, a large cloth boy gazes sadly into space. We’re joined by her husband David, who takes notes throughout our talk.

Sinason insists she doesn’t use recovered-memory techniques. “I’m an analytic therapist,” she says. “The idea of that is someone showing, through their behaviour, that all sorts of things might have happened to them.” Signs that a patient has suffered satanically include flinching at green or purple objects, the colours of the high priest and priestess’s robes. “And if someone shudders when they enter a room, you know it’s not ordinary incest.”

Another warning, she says, is the patient saying: “I don’t know.” “What they really mean is: ‘I can’t bear to say.'” A patient who “overpraises” their family is also suspicious. “The more insecure you are, the more you praise. ‘Oh my family was wonderful! I can’t remember any of it!'”

In the medical records, Sinason noted that Carole was her first chronic sadistic-abuse patient. Today, when I ask about her first patient, Sinason describes the arrival of two medical professionals – a nurse and a psychologist – one of whom was limping.

“I just had that nasty feeling,” she says. “It’s her, and she’s been hurt by them.”

“You could tell that from the limp?” I ask.

“Yep.”

Soon, we get to the actual satanism. Sinason talks of a popular ritual in which a child is stitched inside the belly of a dying animal before being ‘reborn to satan’. During other celebrations, “people eat faeces, menstrual blood, semen, urine. There’s cannibalism.” Some groups have doctors performing abortions. “They give the foetus to the mother and she’s made to kill the baby.”

“And the cannibalism – that’s foetuses?” I clarify.

“Foetuses and bits of bodies.”

“Raw or cooked?”

“The foetuses are raw.”

“Not even a bit of salt and pepper?” I ask.

“Raw. And handed round like communion. On one major festival, the babies are barbecued. I can still remember one survivor saying how easy it is to pull apart the ribs on a baby. But adults are tougher to eat.”

She describes large gatherings in woodlands and castles, with huge cloths being laid out. “That’s normally when there’s a sacrifice,” she notes, “and because the rapes are happening all over the place. There’s a small amount of cannon fodder in terms of runaways, drug addicts, prostitutes and tramps that are used. There’s sex with animals. Horses, dogs, goats. Being hanged upside down. In the woods, on a tree.”

“How do they get an animal to have sex with a human?” I wonder.

Sinason’s husband thinks for a moment. “Well,” he says, “plenty of dogs have a go at people’s legs.” “True,” says Sinason, adding poignantly: “However horrible it sounds, the dog, at least, is friendly afterwards.”

Stay in touch with the Slacktivist on Facebook:

Whatever happened to 'pro-life Democrats'? Go see 'Spotlight'
He's got the biggest King James you've ever seen
Things I Have Learned Due to My Google News Alert for the Word 'Satanic'
The Rod D. Horror Picture Show
  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    At first this didn’t make any sense to me, but I found another article on the subject (possible TW for discussions of the fast and loose psychological ‘treatment’) and it explains that her psychologist had claimed to be next of kin and the scam only unravelled when the coroner found out about her legitimate family.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/11/carole-myers-satanic-child-abuse

  • vsm

    A few years ago, the same Satanic Panic raised its head in Sweden. However, the campaigners were not fundamentalist Christians, but feminist extremists. It’s an incredible and sad tale with some details here (contains lurid tales of Satanic worship): http://www.lauraagustin.com/satanic-sex-on-sunday-gunilla-ekberg-sex-war-and-extremist-feminism . In case anyone’s interested, there’s a link to a good subtitled exposé on them in the comments.

    I’m not entirely sure how influential they really are/were, and I suspect there’s a tendency to overestimate it for the purpose of anti-feminist of propaganda. However, they can’t have been entirely marginal, as they operate a hundred crisis centers for women and girls in Sweden.

  • Lori

    My question is how any of the clinicians involved with Ms Myer’s care are still licensed to practice. As therapists they’re failures in pretty much every way that matters.

  • Anonymous

    My question is how any of the clinicians involved with Ms Myer’s care
    are still licensed to practice. As therapists they’re failures in pretty
    much every way that matters.

    “Therapist”, IIRC, isn’t a licensed term. Anyone can call themselves a therapist, or councillor, or similar. It’s something you really have to watch out for when seeking psychological treatment, since over half of the yellow pages will be people with no formal certification.

  • Anonymous

    Very much this. The purpose of therapy is to help you get over past trauma, not invent new ones!

  • Murfyn

    When I read these kinds of stories (fact? or BS? stories, not Satanic Panic in particular) I want there to be a bright line between the BS and the facts.  And yet, I know too that there is not a constant bright line, and that is, as they say, a feature and not a bug.  In a complex world, there won’t be a single criteria that can be applied to all instances.  Yes, it seems obvious enough to me that these rituals don’t really happen as described.  There is no one fact I can point to that will prove this, though.
    Much of the current left-vs-right conflict of ideas is like this.  The very essence of what I value about the progressive side is the notion that the world is complex, and no one is always right about everything.  Every issue needs to be judged on its own merits.
    That said, some of this stuff gets tiresome.  

  • Lori

    there is no one fact I can point to that will prove this, though. 

    IDK, it seemed that in this case there were a number of facts that prove pretty clearly that the stories weren’t true and from that list we could pick one of them without much trouble. I’d  chose the device Ms Myers claimed to have implanted in her eye that would explode if she talked about the satanists since proving that untrue wouldn’t require taking the word of, or even talking to, any of her (supposedly bloody terrifying) family.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    IDK, it seemed that in this case there were a number of facts that prove
    pretty clearly that the stories weren’t true and from that list we
    could pick one of them without much trouble.

    You don’t know, or you can’t bear to say?

  • Lori

     You don’t know, or you can’t bear to say? 

    I don’t understand your question. 

  • friendly reader

    It’s a joke; the “therapist” claimed that “I don’t know” is secret Satanism-trauma code for “I can’t bear to say.”

  • Anonymous

    I can see a therapist credulous enough to believe this, though, rationalizing that the ‘implant’ might have been a lie told by the Satanists to silence the kid, but that doesn’t disprove the overall story.

    Another thing…having six children in your teens will actually leave physical evidence. Did it ever occur to this moron to send her patient to a qualified OB/GYN to confirm that she’d carried several pregnancies?

  • FangsFirst

    All OB/GYNs are the secret satanists. Because, well, Obviously Beelzebub Gets Your Nethers.

  • Murfyn

    She believes there is a bomb in her eye?!  What terrible experiences she must have undergone to have such a terrible (while obviously untrue) belief!

  • ako

    This kind of false memory stuff is so sad.  Even the recovered memory therapists are rarely malicious, instead often seeing themselves as bravely supporting victims against wrongdoers.  It’s a bunch of sincere, well-intentioned people making things worse for everyone. 

  • Anonymous

    Of course, it’s terrible that these charlatans and quacks are ruining peoples’ lives. However, I can’t help but laugh at her description of those “satanic” rituals. Come on. People eating babies? Sewing kids into animal corpses? Making them eat shit and jizz? Give me a break.

    Honestly, none of that has ever happened, and it just makes a mockery of the real suffering that abused children go through. Not to mention that all of those “rituals” are just perverse extremes of things that relate to practices that “liberals” are okay with. Eating semen and feces: gay people. Being born from an animal: EVILution. Eating babies: jews.

    Psychologists and psychiatrists shouldn’t be allowed to be licensed if they believe in any of this insanity. That should just be an instant “rejected” on their license exam.

  • friendly reader

    This same kind of false memory BS goes on in alien abduction circles too. “Abductees” generally have vaguely remembered sensations that actually match sleep paralysis — up until they point they see a “memory recovery” “therapist” about it, and then suddenly they have all these details about what happened to them.

    Of course, at least in abduction scenarios the perpetrator is some other, imaginary entity from outer space; when you get people believing their own family did horrible things to them, you need to be locked up. It’s evil.

  • friendly reader

    Ah, reading the full article I see they mention alien abductions.

  • http://twitter.com/mattmcirvin Matt McIrvin

    Yeah, the Satanic ritual abuse people are convinced that the UFO abductees were really abused by Satanic cults, and the UFO people are convinced that some of the Satanic cult victims were really abducted by aliens.

  • Anonymous

    You know, this is the sort of by-hook-or-by-crook Freudian rationalization that the psychiatric community was supposed to have outgrown by now.

  • Anonymous

    It’s the lack of critical thinking on the part of the therapists that blows the mind. The willingness to believe these enormous Satanic festivals are invisibly taking place in populated areas, racking up hundreds of routine murders without anyone noticing…

    Or the fact that they don’t bother to mention that, say, their patient obviously did not have an ‘implant in their eye that would explode if they talked about the Satanists’. You can tell they didn’t, because a. the implant did not explode when they talked about the Satanists, and b. there is no such thing.

    And you can see them inventing details as they go, even in that interview. When asked a simple question, ‘how do they get animals to have sex with humans’, they cast around, and come up with the idea of dogs humping people’s legs…and then they start filling in from there.

    As though there wasn’t enough actual abuse in the damn world. I wonder how many people who were actually abused by their families get flim-flammed into believing this sort of nonsense, and work themselves into hysterics instead of getting actual help.

  • Anonymous

    There is exactly one thing that can be said in the therapists’ defense: it is possible to get dogs to do that sort of thing with a human being.

    Otherwise that disgusting story earlier this year about the woman who made porn with her dogs couldnt be true.

    (someone change the subject of the comment thread now, please. Animal abuse is not a good note to end on!!)

  • Anonymous

    I’m not going to say that you can’t get animals to do such a thing, but that even asking how this worked had clearly never occurred to people who consider themselves experts. They’re flailing around for an explanation, and then come up with an utterly irrelevent detail (as someone pointed out, dogs hump legs as a gesture of dominance, not because they want to mate with Uncle Larry.)

    Then they start filling in details from their imagination on the spot, at least to my eye.

    And this is what they’ve modeled for their patients. Not ‘go back and think, does this make sense’, but ‘if it seems to make a little bit of sense, fill in the details on your own’.

  • Kris

    I believe a dog humping one’s leg is a display of dominance, nothing actually sexual. Not that the facts matter to clowns like these two

  • Anonymous

    I believe a dog humping one’s leg is a display of dominance, nothing actually sexual.

    Yup, it’s dominance. 

    And, to interject something happy into the conversation (This is for you, The_L1985.), my sister just adopted a dog.  Now one more animal has a home for the holidays.  She’s got a nice warm bed and gets lots of lovings and ear rubs.

  • Lori

     my sister just adopted a dog.  Now one more animal has a home for the holidays.  She’s got a nice warm bed and gets lots of lovings and ear rubs.  

    How wonderful. I hope your sister and her new dog will have many happy years together. (I say this with a tiny bit of envy. I’m a major dog person and would love to adopt one but my situation just doesn’t allow for it.)

  • rm

    how many people who were actually abused by their families get flim-flammed into believing this sort of nonsense

    I knew a guy during the early ’90s who was working through his issues with having been abused by his mother — talking about it openly for the first time, writing poetry about it. A few years later I got a letter — he sent it to everyone he knew, explaining that he had “recovered” the memory of Satanic abuse with a “therapist.” This criminal “therapist” (if naive and well-meaning, it should still be criminal) had him believing that he had been forced to kill animals and people as a young child. As if the actual, real abuse that he had suffered weren’t hard enough to deal with.

    ——————————————–

    I’ve studied and read a lot about the ways that American and European pop culture and literature has stereotyped Haiti and the Vodun religion. You know the stereotypes. I’d say they are the original “Satanic baby killer” stories, except that the medieval Blood Libel against Jews is the same story, and the stories told about the first Christians by the Romans is the same story. In the case of Haiti stereotypes, they originate in white fears of slave rebellions, and get elaborated over generations from there. You can trace specific stories as they get copies from book to book and enter the mass consciousness.

    So, anyway, when I first began teaching in my current rural state a student told me about her cousins who had been on a mission trip to Haiti. Her cousins were absolutely sure they had witnessed a Satanic child murder. It was nighttime, and they could hear a baby crying somewhere, and then the baby stopped crying. Murder!!!

    Wait, think about this.

    What do people usually do when a baby cries? Well, good people like us would feed the baby, or change a diaper, and put the baby back to sleep. But Those Other Satanic Baby Killing People probably just up and kill and eat the baby right there. Of course, in either case it would sound the same to a neighbor, but . . . MURDER!!!!!!!

  • Anonymous

    ” The willingness to believe these enormous Satanic festivals are
    invisibly taking place in populated areas, racking up hundreds of
    routine murders without anyone noticing…”

    Exactly… unless the cops are in on it!

  • ako

    As though there wasn’t enough actual abuse in the damn world. I
    wonder how many people who were actually abused by their families get
    flim-flammed into believing this sort of nonsense, and work themselves
    into hysterics instead of getting actual help.

    I’ve heard from a number of people who had perfectly real and well-remembered abusive childhoods, but when they went into therapy, therapists made it sound like what they remembered wasn’t “bad enough” to account for their problems and pressured them to “remember” more abuse.  Most of the people I heard this from were women who were subjected to physical abuse but not sexual abuse.

  • Anonymous

    I read the article earlier this morning and it is truly dreadful. One of the most upsetting details was the suggestion that Carole Myers may have been suffering from schizophrenia and that her “therapist” actually made her condition worse(!) by reinforcing her delusions. Unfortunately GDwarf is correct in saying that anyone can call themselves a therapist or counsellor but surely claiming to be next-of-kin is an act of fraud?

  • Lori

     One of the most upsetting details was the suggestion that Carole Myers may have been suffering from schizophrenia and that her “therapist” actually made her condition worse(!) by reinforcing her delusions. Unfortunately GDwarf is correct in saying that anyone can call themselves a therapist or counsellor but surely claiming to be next-of-kin is an act of fraud? 

    Based on my work in mental health settings my first thought was that Ms Myers had some form of schizophrenia. If that was the case then, yes, reinforcing the delusions would tend to make the situation worse. 

    I understand that anyone can call themselves a counseller, what I don’t understand is why an unlicensed, self-proclaimed therapist would be referred to as a clinician or be doing work for the NHS. 

    I also don’t understand why there haven’t been fraud or theft charges filed in connection with the next of kin claim and taking all of Ms Myers’ belongings. 

  • Anonymous

    A number of schizophrenics develop a religious fixation ~ the son of a friend of mine fell in with some fundies who assured him that God would heal him if he threw away his medication as a sign of his faith. That ended with a full-blown psychotic episode, the young man being sectioned again and his new “friends” disappearing rather rapidly over the horizon. Add “satanic abuse” to that kind of mix and the results would be pretty horrific.

  • Anonymous

    One of the things that is said to distinguish paranoid behavior from schizophrenic behavior is that paranoid people come up with things that could conceivably be true, ie, ‘my siblings are conspiring against me to cut me out of Aunt Mabel’s will’, and schizophrenics tend to things that can’t be true, like ‘my thoughts are controlling the weather worldwide’.

    The problem is the schizophrenic who finds a therapist who, instead of helping them understand that what they’re experiencing isn’t real, buys into it wholeheartedly.

  • 2-D Man

    I know the story’s not funny, but it’s hard not to laugh at a person who calls herself an “analytic therapist”. Not since Arrested Development, anyway.

  • Anonymous

    “Now, if I could take my “Father” hat off for a moment, and pull my “Analrapist” stocking over my head…”

  • Geri Corvus

    It’s a mistake to thing that all of these ritual abuse cases are from Christian therapists.  During the 80s and early 90s, there were a number of cases that were started by feminist social workers, particularly the (TRIGGER WARNING)Orkney and (TRIGGER WARNING) Broxtowe  cases.  In both of these, there was genuine child sex abuse (the Broxtowe one was particularly bad), but the social workers involved became convinced that Satanic covens were involved and were covering up widespread abuse and murder – in Orkney, the elderly, infirm parish priest was supposed to be the Satanic High Priest and the then Nottingham Chief Constable was named as a Satanist abuser in the Broxtow case (he promptly sued, and won).
    Yes, the social workers involved had got their ideas from information circulated by US Christian fundamentalists, who were seeing Satanic activity everywhere.  But it dovetailed neatly with their belief that the world was run by a patriarchal conspiracy dedicated to exploiting and abusing helpless women and children.  As far as they were concerned, the demon-obsessed Christians had it nearly right – except that “Satan” was really  patriarchy

  • Geri Corvus

    Carole’s family have set up a website – JusticeForCarole.com detailing their efforts to have action taken against this “therapist”.  Unfortunately, both the General Medical Council seem to have closed ranks, dismissing any need for an inquiry.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/James-Farmer/719444296 James Farmer

    A child stiched inside an animal’s belly to be “reborn to Satan”???!?  How do they think up this rubbish?  They must have disturbingly overactive imaginations.  They should see a therapist.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    A child stiched inside an animal’s belly to be “reborn to Satan”???!?  How do they think up this rubbish?

    They saw the beginning of “Beastmaster”? (Main character was stolen from his pregnant mother by magically transferring him into an animal’s womb for plotwavy reasons.)

    I know that when a dog humps your leg it’s dominance, but does anyone have a clue why my female dog will get in my car, see my baseball cap draped over the gearstick, and hump it? She humps nothing else, and ignores the hat when it’s not on the gearstick or the gearstick when it’s hatless.

  • Tonio

    They saw the beginning of “Beastmaster”?

    Or they saw the first Omen movie that described Damien as the union between Satan and a jackal. I wonder in both cases, the writers borrowed from old myths.

    I know that when a dog humps your leg it’s dominance

    I once saw a dominant male dog do that to another male dog, as if they had just seen Midnight Express. Maybe dogs see themselves as doing hard time.

  • Anonymous

    I’m imagining Sinason saying all this with a completely straight face.

    Really, had she had any self-awareness, she would have realized at the point of “Not even a little salt and pepper?” that she had blown her credibility.

    Twenty-five years too late, unfortunately.

  • Anonymous

    There were several satanic panic abuse cases here in the states, mostly involving day cares.  What’s really disturbing about those is that they went to trial – despite people claiming abuse that would have left physical evidence.  (Granted, in at least one of those cases, there was an “expert” claiming to have found physical evidence, but you’d still expect some second opinions to be involved, especially as the physical evidence he “found” didn’t make any sense, if I recall correctly.)

    There are also other cases of people like this poor woman, who were convinced via “recovered” memories that their families had abused them.  It’s really quite disturbing.

    It’s extra disturbing to me because, as a depressed teen (in the early ’90s), I sought counseling and encountered what might have been the first steps toward that kind of thing.  A disturbing number of mental health people asked me – in my first session – if I’d been sexually abused.  Needless to say, I didn’t go back for second sessions with any of them.  But I am left with the concern that, if I had, they’d have tried to convince me of weird shit.

    (That’s not to say that finding out if your patient was sexually abused is a bad idea, but I find it hard to believe that a good therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist/whatnot would ask in the first session.  Hell, in a couple of cases it was one of their first questions!)

  • FangsFirst

    TW: sexual assault/abuse

    A disturbing number of mental health people asked me – in my first
    session – if I’d been sexually abused.  Needless to say, I didn’t go
    back for second sessions with any of them.  But I am left with the
    concern that, if I had, they’d have tried to convince me of weird shit.

    I know someone who actually was sexually assaulted. Who was asked by each professional zie was sent to, “Any trauma in your life?” at each session zie was forced to attend (long story). Zie has never been an open person–would obfuscate even daily moods, out of sheer mistrust of almost everyone in the entire world. They apparently never picked up on this and kept asking. Or thought zie would break down. Not sure. But zie never even told friends or family–except me, and even I was not told explicitly. Just given incredibly strong hints.

    I was flabbergasted. I have been to about five therapists in my time. None of them has ever asked me that¹–though I’m about eleventy billion times more forthcoming, but still…I couldn’t fathom what would possess someone to ask that flat out, nor to proceed to ask it after being negated repeatedly, and being lied to and obfuscated at alongside it. Unless they were just really, really stupid.

    Then again, zie had plenty of other issues, like some with touch (OCD+sexual assault=absolutely *horrendous* reactions to touch, by the way :), that one brilliant psychiatrist thought, “I know, I will hold this person’s arm indefinitely, because exposure therapy seems like a great way to treat someone who has issues with people touching them!”

    And another angrily took zir phone away for texting, as if it was the therapists time and not zirs. Zie was already refusing to answer their questions.

    Short of the actual sexual abusers, never have I wanted to destroy lives more. Well, careers. Abusers I’d like to murder slowly (though I can never figure out a slow enough method, which is probably a good thing), but only careers of stupid mental health “professionals.”

    Ahem. Sorry. Rant over.

    ¹And one even suggested it was entirely probable that this whole event had even given me mild secondary PTSD. Hooray.

  • ako

    Yeah, asking about trauma on day one of therapy is a terrible idea.  It puts people in the position of sharing a trauma they may not feel comfortable talking about with someone they just met, or lying and having to worry about getting a “So you lied to me?” reaction if they mention it later.  Plus, even when someone’s had a past trauma, their current situation may or may not be helped by bringing it up in therapy.  Making the trauma an important focus on the first day can lead to excessive focus on past events, and not enough work on helping a person get better in the here and now, even if the therapist isn’t inducing false memories.

  • Anonymous

    Hell, I’d have been less weirded out if they’d asked “Any trauma in your life?”  It’s a stupid question for day one, but it’s still better than conversations that very nearly went “Hi, my name is _supposed mental health professional_.  Have you been sexually abused?”*  I’m kind of frightened that there might be people who’s immediate response wasn’t WTF!?

    Now, I think I’d respond with “Wow, what an incredibly unprofessional start to this interview.  I think I’d like my money back, now.”  As a depressed teen, I just told my parents I wanted to try someone else after the (extremely awkward) session was over.

    *I want to say that one session literally started that way, but in all of them, the question came up in at most the first fifteen minutes.

  • FangsFirst

    It was also super recent for zir, so not a remote or even yet buried thing. So I was absolutely incensed, as zie would come to me afterward and talk about it, and generally be annoyed and angry about it all. Had little tolerance. Eventually they did whittle it down to only one therapist (a psychologist) who diagnosed zir as bipolar. After about, I don’t know, three weeks of zir not answering questions. Sometimes refusing to speak. Sometimes pulling a hood down over zir head and napping.

    Did tell that guy some stuff over time–it was decided that I was a very positive influence and zir parents were not (truth on the latter, for damn sure–if you ever find your child in tears and say, “Grow up,” without asking why, there should be some sort of license revocation involved. Again: this trauma was recent. And had serious and lifelong consequences. Including physiological ones. Which is why zie was upset at the time.) and various other things. But every description I got of sessions was…incomprehensibly boneheaded, and they kept asking zir about trauma over and over and friggin over.

    Nevermind that if I said “You know, I got an off-the-cuff type secondary PTSD diagnosis, it wouldn’t say anything bad about you if this added up to PTSD or something” I would hear, “But I haven’t been through anything that bad like soldiers go through in combat!” So clearly a truthful answer was forthcoming. Especially because I know zir well enough to know zie probably read enough to know that statistically sexual assault has an overwhelming majority of the PTSD pie.

    Crap. Guess the rant wasn’t over :
    (then again, I mostly discovered this site as a place to half-hide, half-process all of this, being as this was all relatively recent, including said trauma)

  • Ken

    day cares… despite people claiming abuse that would have left physical evidence.

    Or other activities for which there should be (but wasn’t) evidence.  In the McMartin case, for example, one of the children claimed the day care had secret tunnel in the basement leading to an underground cave where the rites were performed and bodies buried.  The sheriffs duly showed up with warrants and pickaxes, but no tunnels.  This didn’t slow down the prosecutor.

  • Anonymous

    Oh, hell, yes.  That shouldn’t have just slowed down the prosecutor, that should’ve brought them to a screeching halt.  Those cases disturb the hell out of me because they are so obviously law enforcement gone off the rails as well as being about society attacking people who are just a tiny bit different.  Really bad combination.

  • Anonymous

    Or other activities for which there should be (but wasn’t) evidence.

    I know Carl Sagan talks about this in The Demon Haunted World, and I think that’s where I get this from, but I’m not positive.

    Anyways, I believe several of the kids told pretty ludicrous stories, such as being taken on trans-continental plane flights and suchlike that were physically impossible.

    Of course, the “experts” simply ignored all the impossible things the children said (about 9/10ths) and literally pressured them into lying, by telling them that they were bad if they didn’t tell the nice police all about all the horrible things that happened to them.

  • Ken

    I see there’s a wikipedia page on the McMartin case.  I’m not sure I’ve seen a wiki page with the subheading “Bizarre allegations” before.

    Hmm, hot air balloons, orgies in car washes, flushed down a toilet to a secret room, Chuck Norris was one of the abusers… yes, a few warning bells should have been going off.

    Oh, and I see the primary accuser had a history of mental illness.  Which the prosecutor learned of, then concealed from the defense.

  • ako

    Yeah, there’s an important distinction between “He’s such a nice guy, he would never do that to a child!” disbelief and “No, I don’t think that the children were being abused by Chuck Norris and a group of witches who would sneak them into hot-air balloons and flush them down the toilets into the secret underground abuse rooms that have been shown not to exist” disbelief. 

  • runsinbackground

    Psychotherapy scares the hell out of me. The idea that I or someone that I loved might fall ill and be placed in the power of someone like Fleur Fischer or Valarie Sinason is almost enough to make me refuse treatment.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    “How do they get an animal to have sex with a human?” I wonder.
    Sinason’s
    husband thinks for a moment. “Well,” he says, “plenty of dogs have a go
    at people’s legs.” “True,” says Sinason, adding poignantly: “However
    horrible it sounds, the dog, at least, is friendly afterwards.”

    This is one of the big tells for me. It’s one thing to imagine certain possibilities (sewing an infant inside an animal to be “reborn”) but if you want to claim such things are real, or even actually possible, you have to do a bit of research. That’s what separates actual experts (who are willing to study the repugnant out of intellectual duty) from bullsh*t artists that can spin a good yarn.

    An expert in animal abuse could explain the “how” fairly easily, in clinical terms, even though the subject matter is fairly horrible to contemplate. The storyteller can explain why it’s a dramatic element, even playing up the horror for greater effect, but the actual logistics and facts aren’t part of a narrative, so they remain ignorant of them. 

    She describes large gatherings in woodlands and castles, with huge cloths being laid out.

    This is another tell for me: if you ritual Satanic gatherings sound like something out of a Roger Corman film, it’s probably not real.

  • Madhabmatics

    This reminds me of “Dr” “Rebecca” “Brown” in the 1980s, the one that claimed to have been the head of the worldwide satanic conspiracy and, having quit, was attacked by [i]werewolves and vampires[/i], which are real!

    Unfortunately, works like hers are still popular in some parts of the evangelical community. A few of my parents friends have started to believe in the illuminati (after reading Pat Robertsons NWO book) and a “conspiracy of witches,” and it’s basically turning into child abuse as they forbid their children from interacting more and more with society because of fear that the illuminati or witches will taint them. Only one of them managed to give it up, and only after I out-of-context quoted the old testament verse that says not to believe in conspiracy theories.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    It was one of Dr. Brown’s patients, Edna Elain Moses, who was know to the world simply as “Elaine,” who claimed to have been a part of the conspiracy.  She stated that she was one of the “Regional Brides of Satan.”

    (The marriage wasn’t some sort of empty ritual, either; per Elaine, Satan physically appeared and they actually consumated the marriage.)

    Chick Publications published several tracts based on the “information” provided by Rebecca (formerly Ruth Irene Bailey) and Elaine, some books written by Rebecca, and they also sold some audiotapes of Jack himself interviewing the two of them.

    Rebecca had lost her medical license for overprescribing medication, and for attempting to heal people through excorcisms.

    (In Rebecca’s version, it was because the hospital she worked at was run by the Conspiracy, and they had to discredit her because she was so effective at delivering the patients from evil.)

    Eventually she and Elaine (and Chick) parted ways when Rebecca married Daniel Yoder, who himself claimed to have escaped from a life in the Worldwide Satanic Conspiracy.

  • Anonymous

    For some reason the title “Regional Bride of Satan” makes me laugh hysterically. It sounds like a beauty peageant.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    Personally, I always wondered if  there was a Dwight to Elaine’s Michael Scott who held the title of “Assistant (to the) Regional Bride of Satan.”

  • Lori

    For some reason the title “Regional Bride of Satan” makes me laugh hysterically. It sounds like a beauty peageant.

    I was thinking Amway.

  • Anonymous

    That, or it’s some weird sort of Mary Kay thing.  Nothing against Mary Kay; they have ‘regional sales coordinator’ and ‘regional manager’ and things like that.  I guess the Brides of Satan were inspired by Avon and Mary Kay?

    Do the Brides of Satan have a marketing structure?  Do you have to hold Adversarial Matrimony parties in which you extol the virtues of being a concubine to the Fallen One (and which you give lovely door prizes to attendees)?  How many Brides of Satan do you have to induct in order to be made a Regional Bride?  If you become Regional Bride of the Year, do they give you a car (a Lamborghini Diablo, of course.  In Way Too Red.  With leather seats made from the hides of the forsaken and forsworn (AKA rich Corinthian leather) with a gas tank filled with brimstone.)  What are their quotas like?  Are there other metrics besides “get women married off to Satan Mekratrig?’  After Regional Bride, what can you aspire to?  National, Continental, World?  At what point do you go from sales to management to executive levels?  Is the overarching organization privately owned or publicly traded?  (NYSE symbol: EVLGRL.)  What if you swing the other way, is there a ‘Grooms of Satan?’  Is there another male auxiliary called ‘Bros of Satan,’ who aspire to, you know, just hang with the Morning Star on a Sunday with beers and brats, maybe catch the game?  What if your exotic pet is exhibiting Satanic tendencies; is there a Chinchillas of Satan, and do they, too, have Regional Chinchillas?

    Too many unanswered questions!

  • Rikalous

    I guess the Brides of Satan were inspired by Avon and Mary Kay?

    Or the other way around. Satan’s been around for a while now. You’d think he could have come up with a decent idea after a few millennia.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    You’d think he could have come up with a decent idea after a few millennia.

    I’d say Multi-Level Marketing is a diabolic invention for the ages!

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    I’d say Multi-Level Marketing is a diabolic invention for the ages!

    Crowley sent the Mary Kay handbook Below with a note that just said “Learn, guys”.

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    It was one of Dr. Brown’s patients, Edna Elain Moses, who was know to
    the world simply as “Elaine,” who claimed to have been a part of the
    conspiracy.  She stated that she was one of the “Regional Brides of
    Satan.”

    I’ve read her book.  It would have been a lot more hilarious if not for the horrible creeping realization that people BELIEVE this stuff.

  • Bruce Gerencser

    I remember how the satanic ritual abuse stories captivated the church I pastored in the 1980’s. I read all the books,listened to all the “authorities” on the subject. I was absolutely convinced that there was widespread satanic abuse. I warned the church about it and encouraged them to read up on the subject. I just KNEW I was right.

    As we all know now……most of it was a lie, a deliberate distortion of the truth. It still amazes me how easily I was sucked in, how easily I surrendered my rational thinking skills to the “experts.”

  • http://jesustheram.blogspot.com/ Mr. Heartland

    So, signs of Satanic abuse include:  dislike of the colors purple and green, limping, and; most inexplicibly rare of all, seeing your own family members as better than they actually are.  I suppose if all that isn’t enough to ensure that every single one of Sinason’s ‘patients’ is a victim of Satanic abuse, then add a tendancy to get tipsy on New Year’s Eve to the list. 

    I have a very strong feeling that this woman  is a self-aware bullshit artist.  If she’s sincere then she’s as barking mad as the woman here in Lincoln Ne, who thinks that every cell phone carries secret mindwaves from the Chinese telling White people to kill themselves.  Either way Sinason has proven herself to be a physically dangerous crank and needs to be locked the hell up.

  • Geri Corvus

    Yes, these Satan-obsessed  therapists always go for the drama, and never EVER think about what any of these claims would entail.  For instance, in a number of Satanic panic abuse cases, it was claimed that every Full Moon, hundreds of Satanists would turn up at some ordinary suburban house for their satanic revels.  Now, if that had actually happened, where would they have parked all their cars, without annoying the neighbours?  An answer could be that they car-shared, came by bus or taxi – but the therapists never even ask that question in the first place. 
    And some other questions they never get round to asking are “How did you get all those nasty stains out of velvet robes?”; “How often did you all get tested for HIV, STs and hepatitis?”;  “Did the neighbours ever complain about you keeping  livestock in a residential area?”

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I don’t know the most foolproof way to choose a therapist who won’t try these tricks on, but one thing I can suggest is that they should have their degrees from a relatively recognizable university (in the USA even a state college will be acceptable, as long as it is accredited) and they should be in good standing with the local certifying authority (in the USA that is the American Psychological Association, or American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology or American Psychiatric Association; the UK has the Royal College of Psychiatrists and British Psychological Society).

  • Anonymous

    I don’t know the most foolproof way to choose a therapist who won’t try these tricks on

    Stay away from anyone who does anything involving “recovered memories” or with a focus on reliving past experiences.

    The former is quackery (people don’t repress traumatic memories) that results in new, traumatic, memories being formed.

    The latter is how therapy used to be done, but is now pretty much universally accepted to be much more harmful than good, if for no other reason than how your brain does “danger triage”: The more powerful a memory, and the easier it is to recall, the more your brain is concerned by it. Reliving a memory makes it easier to recall and enhances the emotions it brings, causing any trauma to become worse.

  • Anonymous

    There’s no foolproof way to pick a good mental health professional, but you’ll have a good shot if you check on the official website of the disorder you want to be treated for.  I found my therapists (a married couple who worked together) through the OC Foundation website, and they were both very good.

    I realize this isn’t an option for everyone for so many reasons, but it’s a good place to start if you can do it.

    And google is your friend.  If any news stories pop up about recovered memories, stay away from that therapist.  It won’t catch them all, but it will strain out some of them.

  • WingedBeast

    The fiction writer/apperciator in me has a different reaction.  Considering the usual Christian beliefs that are standardly associated with those that fear Satanists (you know, Hell as the place you go if you’re not a Christian), aren’t all the satanic rituals unnecessary?

    Wouldn’t the baby-killing, blood drinking, poo-eating, etc drive more people away from Hell than into its maw?

    Seriously, if you were Satan, had a goal of getting people into eternal torment, and all that took was people being mistaken about the age of the earth or something similar, wouldn’t doing nothing be a far more effective tactic of opposition?

    If Satan is supposed to be this evil genius with plans within plans and complex webs of deciet, one would imagine he’d think through this idea and write it off as ultimately counterproductive.

  • http://jesustheram.blogspot.com/ Mr. Heartland

    You seem to have forgotten, (For shame) that Satan is Fu–ing Metal.  No Devil worthy of the name would ever choose the practical over the fantastic. 

  • vsm

    In X-Files, Mulder’s backstory had him undergoing recovered memory therapy, which allowed him to remember how aliens abducted his sister. I always wondered if the writers felt guilty for spreading the idea, as there’s a second season episode about satanic panics. Scully points out there’s absolutely no evidence of a nation-wide satanic conspiracy, and the lurid memories of ritualistic abuse recovered by a girl turn out to be false. Of course, her parents totally were Satan worshippers, but rather loving ones who’d have never done such things to her.

  • ako

    One big thing with a lot of these therapies, and something anyone seeking therapy should keep an eye out for, is the continuing downward spiral of increased misery and illness.  Therapy doesn’t instantly make a person better, but there should be some degree of improvement after a month or two, or the therapy is not working.  And if a person going to therapy continues to find themselves more unhappy, more unable to cope, or generally feeling worse, and this goes on week after week, there is something unhealthy about the therapy. 

    A lot of people treated with these recovered memory therapies find themselves in this continuous downward spiral, constantly being told things need to get worse before they get better, and promised that it’s going to start getting better any day now, if they keep chasing a few more memories, a few more revelations, a few more months of everything getting harder and worse.  Being made sicker and sicker on the promise it will make them well, only it doesn’t actually work.

  • Flea

    I loved the bit where the reporter asks the therapist if the satanists were allowed to put salt and pepper on the raw fetus dinners.

  • MartG

    For those interested in the issues of recovered memory Sabbach’s recent book “Remembering our Childhood: How Memory Betrays Us” published by Oxford University Press is well worth a look.

  • steve

    one comment which seemed to blame liberals and Jews (no caps!) was vicious and should not have been printed  all that crazy bs about Evil lution  if i misunderstand and i hope i do, i apologize but there is so much cruel generalization going on today and very little knowledge or reason

  • Anonymous

    I have been treated for childhood sexual,physical and emotional abuse. I was not coerced into remembering any of the bizarre and horrific things that were done to me. Some of the stories about satanic abuse may not be true but I would encourage people not to negate all of the stories as it does a great disservice to the survivors who have bravely told their stories. While I do not believe that this is a widespread occurence this I do know – there are people who do horrendous things to children that are unbelievable because they are so extreme. This kind of abuse does happen though and you would be surprised at the “fine and upstanding” members of communities that do unbelievable things to children – even their own children. I am not necessarily talking about abuse that is satanic abuse. So I caution you to not automatically discount accounts of abuse which involve actions that are so horrendous that they are hard to believe – that does not make them false.

  • ako

    Child abuse, including strange and horrific forms of abuse, is definitely a thing that really happens.  I certainly wouldn’t encourage people to dismiss all abuse reports, or even all reports of extreme abuse, based on these kinds of stories. 

    I would encourage skepticism in cases where either 1) there was no recollection of abuse prior to therapy designed to elicit memories, or 2) the physical evidence contradicts the abuse account. 

  • nirrti

    “And the cannibalism – that’s foetuses?” I clarify.
    “Foetuses and bits of bodies.”
    “Raw or cooked?”
    “The foetuses are raw.”
    “Not even a bit of salt and pepper?” I ask.

    Classic, simply classic.

  • Tessa

    This story is very one sided – remember the family were not invovled in Carol’s life for a very long time, in fact she had made extreme efforts to keep them out of her life, there must have been a reason for this. She even changed her name.
    If Carol had disclosed sexual abuse or otherwise her doctors had a duty of care to support her with this.
    Dr Fisher obviously became very close to Carol and offered her support throughout the rest of her life. Dr Fisher was not involved with her care – she had since passed this role onto other professsionals. Dr Fisher has never practised as therapist or worked within mental health services, she would have referred Carol on to other professionals for this support. Dr Fisher, it seems to me, knew that Carol did not want her family invovled in her life and hence took on the role of sorting out Carol’s belongings and funeral. I feel there was no ‘theft’ nothing illegal happened and Dr Fsiher acted in Carol’s best interest, as a supportrive ‘friend’ and ‘next of kin’. From articles that I have read about this case, Carol consulted Dr Fisher in 1986 with a depressive type illness.
    Carol was obviously suffering a severe and enduring mental illness, which resulted in her being sectioned under the MH Act several times. Maybe some of the treatment she received was not beneficial, but I do not beleive from what I have read that Dr FIsher should be blamed for this
    Unfortuantely due to patient confidentiality we will never know the medical side of this story, but I believe that Carol was in ‘hiding’ for her family, for reasons we will never know. She only made contact with her brother, who Dr Fisher, when she phoned him ‘i know you werent one of the ones who hurt Carol’. Carol never made contact, from what I have read about this case with either of her parents. Again, this was her choice
    It is a very tragic story and has resulted in a loss of life, but I feel there is far more to it than we will ever find out. 
     

  • ako

    in fact she had made extreme efforts to keep them out of her life, there must have been a reason for this

    There must have been a reason for her behavior, however the reason isn’t necessarily abuse.  Abuse is one possible reason for people to keep their family out of their life.  Irrational paranoia can be another, and if Carol really was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, she could easily have come to the entirely sincere and completely inaccurate belief that her family was out to harm her.  It is also far from rare for a psychologically vulnerable person to fall under the influence of a charismatic manipulator who talks them into separating from their loved ones, because family can threaten the power that the manipulator has over their victim.  Carol separating from her family is far from being proof that they did anything wrong. 

  • Tessa

    I agree with a lot of the points you raise and I did say that maybe some of the therapy she received was not beneficial to her ‘fragile’ state. I do believe that if someone discloses abuse, either physcial or sexual then they have to be believed. Carol displayed classic symptoms of abuse – self harming, alcholol problems, paranoia. However, I am very doubtful/sceptical of the ‘satanic abuse’ that was rearing in the media in the late 80’s and early 90’s – some of  the claims Clare made such as implants and murdering babies all seem to be very improbable and likely these statements were made when she was paranoid,or psychotic. 
    I just feel that an eminent consultant such as Dr Fisher would not be so easily hoodwinked by ‘false’ accusations or claims. She remained close to Clare throughout the rest of her life and obviously knew her very well 
    Yes, her seperating from her family is not proof that they did anything wrong, but she did change her name and moved from Stockport to Macclesfield – only 8 miles between the towns and still did not let her family know where she was.  There must have been a very valid reason for her doing this.

  • Lori

    I do believe that if someone discloses abuse, either physcial or sexual then they have to be believed. 

    First of all, we’re not discussing a case where abuse was disclosed. We’re talking about abuse that was “discovered” in therapy. One situation really has nothing to do with the other. 

    Second, if you mean that all accusations of abuse must create the assumption that the person has in fact been abused then your statement is not correct. Disclosures of abuse must be taken seriously. Disclosures of abuse mean that something is wrong and must be addressed. The problem may be, and most often is, abuse. However, the problem can also be underlying mental or physical illness or some problem not caused by or related to abuse.

      There must have been a very valid reason for her doing this.  

     
    If your definition of “very valid reason” includes the possibility of delusions brought on by underlying mental illness or false memories created by harmful “therapy” carried out by charlatans or idiots, then this is basically a fair statement. If by “very valid reason” you strictly mean that her family must have abused her in some way then your statement is not true. 

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think anyone thinks that Dr Fisher was hoodwinked by Carole.  In fact, I think the suspicion is that Carole was hoodwinked by Dr Fisher and Valerie Sinason, or at least suffered serious malpractice at their hands.

  • ako

    I do believe that if someone discloses abuse, either physcial or sexual then they have to be believed.

    See, I don’t believe that.  You know why?  I’ve met people who were clinically delusional and reported instances of abuse that could not have happened.  I’ve seen cases where multiple witnesses confirmed that both the alleged perpetrator and the alleged victim were in completely different places when the abuse was alleged to occur, and what the victim described could not possibly have happened. 

    Now, based on what I’ve seen, this sort of delusion seems to be extremely rare.  But it does happen.  So does lying.  I think most people who report abuse arte telling the truth.  I don’t think everyone’s immediate response to abuse victims should be “prove it, you liar”.  And I think that, depending on what sort of relationship one has with the victim, it is usually best to assume the reports of abuse are true.  However, I don’t think we should rule out the possibility that someone might inaccurately claim abuse, especially if the person has a history of mental problems and makes the sort of strange claims that are consistent with paranoid delusions.

    Carol displayed classic symptoms of abuse – self harming, alcholol problems, paranoia.

    Those sorts of symptoms can have several causes.  Abuse is only one of many possible causes of that behavior.

    some of  the claims Clare made such as implants and murdering babies all
    seem to be very improbable and likely these statements were made when
    she was paranoid,or psychotic.

    So you’re willing to disbelieve her on these claims of abuse, but not on others?

    Yes, her seperating from her family is not proof that they did
    anything wrong, but she did change her name and moved from Stockport to
    Macclesfield – only 8 miles between the towns and still did not let her
    family know where she was.  There must have been a very valid reason for
    her doing this.

    Wrong.  There must have been a reason, but you are assuming it’s a valid one.  I don’t know how much experience you’ve had with people with delusional disorders, but it’s perfectly possible for them to believe something bad happened, and behave as if it were real, without it being factually true.  Carol obviously had a reason that made sense in her head, but whether it was based on reality or not is impossible to determine.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    I do believe that if someone discloses abuse, either physcial or sexual then they have to be believed.

    When I was 13 years old then-Pope John Paul II locked me in a basement for three weeks and beat me with a broken table leg for four hours a day.  I’ve never told anyone before, but this story is making it impossible for me to stay silent.  The world needs to know what a horrible person Pope John Paul II was and that it’s not okay to beat a teenager with a broken table leg in a basement.

    I also moved from Illinois to Texas for a year and a half, in spite of the fact that I’d never wanted to move to Texas before.  This behavior can only be explained by the fact that my family was in on my Pope-related abuse and I didn’t want to be around them.  No other explanation would possibly suffice.

  • Vladimir

    Tessa, I’d like you to answer this: why were Carole’s satanic abuse stories never researched by the therapists treating her? If someone has a physical ailment it is first investigated, then diagnosed, then treated. In Carole’s case, the ‘investigation’ element was missed entirely.

    Indeed, had someone like Carole alleged that their parents were satanic serial killers I’d have gone straight to the Police about the matter. Merely to treat the patient based on their unfounded stories is at best astonishingly naive; at worst, it reveals the therapists treating her knew the stories to be false.

    Further, the doctor-patient relationship should be investigated immediately. It is ironic that Fisher (a former head of the Ethics Committee at the BMA) would later claim to be a patient’s “next of kin.” How can the relationship between a doctor and patient become so corrupted, as seen when Fisher admits driving her dead patient’s car? Or should we use the term she employs on the phone to Diamond insurance: “unofficial daughter”?

    Just reading The Sunday Times and Observer articles alone, it seems that Fisher has dozens of questions to answer. As a doctor, she should be held to account immediately and prosecuted as a matter of public safety.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    Wow.  We’re actually getting pro-people-who-believe-in-baby-eating-satanists on here.  That’s kinda fun.

    And, no, the story isn’t “one sided.”  It’s established fact that Satanic panic garbage is horrid crap run by charlatans.  It’s also (as much as can be, for the current state of science) established fact that “recovered memory” therapies are not only bad science, but useless for therapy and dangerous to the person subjected to them.  So, in general, sock-puppeting in defense of someone who is, at best, unintentionally harming people and, at worst, a lying charlatan (seriously, “You don’t like purple, you limp, and you say nice things about your family.  You’ve been abused!” That’s what her “evidence” boiled down to.  Say that to the next stranger who limps past you on the street.  See how it goes).  “One sided” only works as a discussion when there are multiple, equally viable narratives.  This one has one viable narrative of abuse via therapist and one cloud cuckoo-land narrative of abuse via people cribbing off of the plot of the movie version of Dragnet with Hanks and Akroyd.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Isn’t it also kind of side-eye-worthy for a medical person ostensibly treating a patient to become next of kin in a way that would produce financial or other benefit?

    I can’t help but feel this would constitute a conflict of interest. I’m a grad student so I’ll try to come up with a related example:

    Suppose that my supervisor had somehow gotten to the point where my supervisor was depending on me to be able to conduct day to day activities, and it got to the point where I was a beneficiary under the supervisor’s will.

    Wouldn’t anyone think this was just the teensy tiniest bit inappropriate?

    I’d certainly be side-eyeing that situation. There’s a whole can of worms of conflict of interest that comes out of that.

  • Lori

     Isn’t it also kind of side-eye-worthy for a medical person ostensibly treating a patient to become next of kin in a way that would produce financial or other benefit?  

     

    It’s more than side-eye-worthy. It’s unethical at best, illegal at worst. I don’t know much about the licensing rules in the UK, but if we were talking about a licensed therapist here in the US this would be grounds for censure and possible loss of license. Defending on the exact details of the case it could also be grounds for criminal prosecution. 

    Like I said earlier, I really don’t understand why criminal charges haven’t been filed over the fact that the “therapist” took all of Myers’ possessions while falsely claiming to be her next of kin. That’s fraud and theft pretty much anywhere. 

  • Tessa

    The ‘therapist’ did not take her possessions. The ‘therapist’ is in fact Dr Fisher who has stated that she is not a therapist and never has been. She was a Consultant at Macclesfeield District General for many years. Dr Fisher had referred Clare onto MH professionals and was not invovled in her therapy. Dr Fisher has never worked in Mental Health services. I do believe that from what I have read that Clare did disclose abuse to Dr Fisher, she acted on this by referring her to MH professionals. Dr Fisher was no longer involved in Clare’s care provision only at the early onset of her illness, she became her carer & friend, outside of her medical position. Clare, it would seem had no possessions or finances, it seems the last few years of her life she survived solely on state benefits, which indiates that she was not in employment, if she had spent so much time in pysciatiric hosptials it would have been difficult for her to work and hold a job down.
    None of us know the real depth of Clare & Dr Fishers ‘relationship’ but I firmly believe that it was a very close one  and Dr Fisher was a constant support as friend and not a doctor to Clare throughout the end of her life.

  • ako

    None of us know the real depth of Clare & Dr Fishers
    ‘relationship’ but I firmly believe that it was a very close one  and Dr
    Fisher was a constant support as friend and not a doctor to Clare
    throughout the end of her life.

    You keep asserting this.  Where are you getting this belief from, and what do you think it proves?

  • Anonymous

    You know that “Clare” and Dr. Fisher had a close personal relationship that was totally legitimate, but you don’t know that the woman we’re discussing’s name was actually Carol?  Right then.

    How can you possibly know anything about a dead woman’s relationship with Dr. Fisher unless you are a friend of Dr. Fisher or are Dr. Fisher herself?  Have you never heard of people taking advantage of the mentally ill?  The fact that Dr. Fisher lied to officials (claiming to be Carol’s next of kin and that Carol had no family) raises GIGANTIC red flags, especially as Carol does not appear to have had a will.  Dr. Fisher also took Carol to Valerie Sinason, who believes that limps are proof of sexual abuse.  Holy fucking what, Batman!?

  • Persia

    This is from the webpage that Carole’s family put together: In addition to the so-called Life Assessment document, Carol’s father
    was then informed by the Coroner’s Assistant that he had been involved
    in a court case in which he and the rest of his family were supposed to
    have been the defendants in a major criminal trial accused of Satanic
    Ritual Abuse. This court case did not occur; it was completely
    fictitious.  We instigated a police investigation into it and it was
    proven that it had never existed.

    The only reason I can think at this point that there wasn’t more of an investigation is that the authorities didn’t want the fact that they were credulous idiots to get any more attention than it already had.

  • Lori

      Dr. Fisher also took Carol to Valerie Sinason, who believes that limps are proof of sexual abuse.  Holy fucking what, Batman!?  

    Exactly. Carol Myers needed competent mental health care and didn’t get it, apparently at least in part because of the good Dr Fisher. Sadly, with a “friend” like Dr Fisher Carol Myers had no need of enemies. 

  • Not black and white

    A little balance, please. This story was hand-fed to the journalist by the British False Memory Society, a social movement for people accused of sexual abuse. They invented the concept of a ‘false memory syndrome’ and ‘recovered memory therapy’ – no such form of therapy exists except as a ‘straw man’ used to attack therapists and social workers with sexually abused clients.

    The parents of Myers are members of the BFMS and so too is psychologist Chris French, who is quoted as an ‘objective’ expert in this article. They advocate a ‘syndrome’ that has no academic credibility or standing. On the other hand, Sinason is world renowned for her work with the disabled and sexualy abused clients. She may come across as eccentric but she’s not stupid, and unlike French she is not promoting a ‘syndrome’ invented by people accused of sexual abuse to discredit women and children.

    The fact is that Myers was estranged from her family for twenty years, and now that she’s dead we will never know her side of the story. Accepting at face value the protestations of her family, who seem much more concerned about Carole after her death than when she was alive, seems very naive.

  • ako

    So, do you think that the interviewer fabricated Sinason’s statement about how an aversion to green and purple is an indicator of Satanic abuse in order to discredit her?  Or do you think that’s an appropriate assumption for a therapist to make?  (Obviously, the interviewer was trying to portray her in a negative light, but if it’s factually true that she is willing to assume at a glance that a limp is caused by Satanic ritual abuse, I fear for the well-being of her disabled clients.)

    And do you think Satanic ritual abuse is reasonably probable?

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    A little balance, please.

    Ms. Sinason was interviewed for the story. She was asked questions, given an opportunity to rebutt charges and claims, and present what she felt were the salient details.

    It was Ms. Sinason who talked about Satanic rituals of infants being sewn inside animals & various sexual acts with animals. Not the patient, the therapist.

    It is Ms. Sinason’s own words, her own clearly expressed beliefs in a massive Satanic organization that engages in huge scale rape, murder, and cannibalism, all without ever being detected by civil authorities.

    …Sinason is world renowed for her work with the disabled and sexually abused clients.

    Flag on the play: appeal to authority. 5 yard penalty, repeat first premise.

    She may come across as eccentric but she’s not stupid…

    She believes that there are Satanic rituals where dead babies are “handed round like communion”. She talks about “barbequed babies” featured at “major festivals”.
    She is stupid, and wilfully so.

    edit: for some reason, I wanted the therapist to have the same last name as a character from “How I Met Your Mother”. I have no idea why, but I’ve corrected the error. (I think)

  • Tessa

    totally agree

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    totally agree

    Disingenuous idiot agrees with disingenuous idiot.  Film at 11.

  • Timotei30

    what a silly misinformed person you are! (and rude!)

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    what a silly misinformed person you are! (and rude!)

    Coming from someone who is attempting to defend something that is completely indefensible based on the evidence and creating a narrative of conspiracy and persecution to defraud someone who literally damned herself with her own words, I’ll take “misinformed” as a compliment.  And if you’re shocked at rudeness, you probably shouldn’t be a credulous sock puppet for a lying charlatan.

  • ako

    Do you agree with Sinason’s claim that Satanic ritual abuse is real, and she can detect it by looking at how people react to the colors green and purple?

  • Diona the Lurker

    But do you agree with Sinason’s claims of wide ritual Satanic abuse?

  • tessa

    No I dont

  • Anonymous

    The parents of Myers are members of the BFMS

    Not . . . the Baltimore Folk Music Society?!?!

    That settles it, then.  They’re clearly evil.

  • Lori

    Wow, this is shaping up to be more fun than that time Glenn Greenwald’s flying monkeys descended on us for daring to question the Great One*. 

     
    They invented the concept of a ‘false memory syndrome’ and ‘recovered memory therapy’ – no such form of therapy exists except as a ‘straw man’ used to attack therapists and social workers with sexually abused clients.  

     

    A little reality, please. The British False Memory Society did not invent the concept of false memory syndrome. The rest of your statement is similarly biased. (I have training in the mental health field so it’s a waste of time to try this on me.) 

    It’s sad and discouraging that there are actually people willing to defend Satanic Panic and the staggeringly poor therapeutic techniques that convince vulnerable people to believe things that not only aren’t true, but can’t be true. The best case scenario here is that they’re all sock puppets for either Fischer or Sinason. Worst case, they’re people who have been made to believe that they’re victims of a kind of ritual abuse that doesn’t exist. 

    My hope is for everyone who needs it to find competent mental health care and for the work of these “eminent” “therapists” to get exactly the kind and amount of attention that it deserves. (Hint: that is not my way of wishing them well.)*Glenn Greenwald did not send them, they came all on their own volition. I have no idea if this bunch is here on their own initiative or if one of the good doctors is pointing people in this direction. 

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    I have no idea if this bunch is here on their own initiative or if one
    of the good doctors is pointing people in this direction.

    It’s possible we’re discovering yet another collection of credulous internet trolls.  Like MRAs,anti-vaxxers, and Coldplay fans they search the intertubes for negative portrayals of their particular bugaboo and unleash the flying monkeys.

    I’m pretty sure that if you’re so bought in to Satanic Panic BS, there’s a pretty good chance that you’re already most of the way down the path to unhinged trollery.

  • tessa

    Who is defending Satanic Panic? you are jumping to these conclusions. You are not looking at the ‘reality and facts’ you are in the USA , have read a (one sided) article about a person you know nothing about, you are jumping to all sorts of conclusions – remember this, there are people in the UK who have information and evidence that you know nothing about, peope who lived and worked in the region that Carol was from; and before you all start ranting and raving, this has nothing to do with Satanic Panic. As they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and you have  little knowledge and are making judgements (rude ones at that) on something you know nothing about!   So pipe down all of you and only comment on ALL of the facts not a biased article

  • Diona the Lurker

    So you’re saying that Sinason’s replies to the journalist in the article were completely fabricated by the journalist? That they were completely made up? That’s what you are implying, given that her alleged replies all affirmed the reality of widespread ritual Satanic abuse. If this is the case, then Sinason has every right to sue. Has this happened yet? If not, why not?

  • tessa

    Im not implying anything- you are? I gave a simple answer to your question, (wish I hadnt bothered), I didnt expand on other views and thoughts I have, so stop speaking on my behalf!

  • Anonymous

    You come in here, accuse everyone of being unfairly skeptical and provide not one whit of evidence that even one part of the article is ill founded beyond vague accusations of “one sidedness”. “You’re all wrong because I say so!” is not a compelling argument.

    Complaining about “one-sidedness” without showing there even is another side is really not the kind of thing that is respected on this board. Not to mention, you haven’t bothered to get Carole’s name right *once*. Not exactly an endorsement of your grasp of the “facts”.

  • tessa

    Look at the evidence provided (by a letter from Sinason) – Sinason doesnt come into the picture until 1991, by then Carol was already presenting ‘trance like states’ – this could be due to the over prescription of anti-psychotic drugs that were prescribed in the late 80’s and early 90’s, which would have been prescribed by the hospital when she was detained under the MH Act, therefore was not Sinason or Fisher’s responsbility , Im not saying ‘you’re all wrong’ but are basing your thoughts on very limited evidence that is in the public domain from one article, this is much ‘bigger’ than just blaming 2 people (obviously there must have been many more) who were involved in her care at that time.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    Look at the evidence provided (by a letter from Sinason) – Sinason
    doesnt come into the picture until 1991, by then Carol was already
    presenting ‘trance like states’

    So…let’s assume for just a moment that the letter (which I don’t recall actually being produced.  I believe that if this were Wikipedia there’d be a big ol’ [Citation Needed] right after the parenthetical.  As such: [Citation Needed]) written by someone who has been accused as unimpeachable evidence of their lack of culpability.  This can be the case.  Innocent people have been accused of things, after all, and, “You’re denying it, you must be lying!” is a horrible tactic.  It would be terrible if Sinason were railroaded by people who inform her that denying something is proof that it’s true.  I’m sure it would be impossible for me to just, say, scroll upwards on this very page and find proof that Sinason is completely willing to take the side of people who deny things as being honest.

    Another warning, [Sinason] says, is the patient saying: “I don’t know.” “What
    they really mean is: ‘I can’t bear to say.’” A patient who “overpraises”
    their family is also suspicious. “The more insecure you are, the more
    you praise. ‘Oh my family was wonderful! I can’t remember any of it!’”

    Oh.  Um.  Wait.

    So…I guess this means that the more Sinason denies what happened, the more proof we have that she did, in fact, do horrible things to another person?  Glad we’ve cleared that one up.

    That notwithstanding, anyone who actually thinks that aversion to purple or green is proof of victimization by Satanists or walking with a limp is proof of abuse at the hands of those same Satanists is mentally deranged.  Even if she did absolutely nothing to Carole Myers (which is not an assertion to which I’ll assent, since her own side of the story seems to indicate she was involved and made things worse), her statements about her therapeutic practices indicate she should absolutely not be allowed to treat patients.  Her belief that there are actual Satanists actually sewing babies in to the insides of animals and then making their mothers kill and eat them indicate she shouldn’t be a therapist but should, herself, be under professional medical care.  Hopefully she’ll be sent to a much higher caliber professional.

  • Anonymous

    Obviously, there’s a larger problem or someone like Sinason wouldn’t be allowed to act as a therapist.  You could’ve been a bit more clear on your stance, though.  It sounded as if you were defending Sinason and Fisher and claiming that they were right and Carol’s family really were baby eating satanists.

    (Carol’s family well could have abused her, but any evidence to that has been buried under completely impossible delusions.  So even if she had been abused, her friend and therapists made any action against her family pretty much impossible.  And if she wasn’t abused, but simply suffered from a mental illness that they took advantage of, then they did harm to her family for no reason as well as harm to her.  The whole thing is terrible.)

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    Look at the evidence provided (by a letter from Sinason) – Sinason
    doesnt come into the picture until 1991, by then Carol was already
    presenting ‘trance like states’ – this could be due to the over
    prescription of anti-psychotic drugs that were prescribed in the late
    80’s and early 90’s

    Also, too, everything in the diagnosis indicates symptoms of schizophrenia.  Now, I am not a mental health professional by any stretch of the imagination, so all of my medical knowledge of schizophrenia is based on half-remembered psychology classes and Google.  However, everything I’ve read of this caused me to say, “Hey, that sounds like schizophrenia.  Maybe I should check to see if the symptoms match.”  As it turns out, they did.  So were I a friend of Carole, my next step would be to try to get her treated.

    Sinason, meanwhile, saw her limp in to the room and thought, “She’s been ritualistically abused by Satanists!”  Everything she did after that was based on her premise that ritual abuse by Satanists was, like, a thing and seemed to discount the distinct possibility that there was a less wildly fantastic explanation, like, say, schizophrenia.

    You, dear sock puppet, have decided that she was totally thrown by overprescription of drugs.  You’ve worked up an entire anti-Sinason conspiracy theory and seem to be willing to defend it to the last.

    But, again, whether or not Sinason is innocent of abuse to a patient in this specific case is almost entirely beyond the point.  The very fact that she managed to avoid Occam’s Razor and say that she was probably looking at a schizophrenic in order to spin fabulous tales of ritualistic Satanic abuse indicates she’s a menace to her patients and potential patients.  The fact that she refers to Carole as the “first,” is positively chilling.  How many other poor families like the Felsteads has she put through the ringer of accusation of ritualistic sexual abuse, cannibalism, and other such bullshit based on no more evidence than a person saying, “My family was fantastic.  I loved them very much?”

    Valerie Sinason should not be defended as an unwitting dupe.  She should be permanently barred from calling herself a therapist and kept very far from people with mental health issues.  She proves herself to be a menace with her own words.

  • ako

    Sinason doesnt come into the picture until 1991, by then Carol was
    already presenting ‘trance like states’ – this could be due to the over
    prescription of anti-psychotic drugs that were prescribed in the late
    80’s and early 90’s, which would have been prescribed by the hospital
    when she was detained under the MH Act, therefore was not Sinason or
    Fisher’s responsbility

    You keep doing this.  You pick out one small detail of the article, use it to create a complicated string of tentative speculation, and acting as if it proves something.  Do you have evidence you’re not sharing, or are you just utterly determined to interpret things in a way that makes Fisher and Sinason look good?   (From what I can tell, that seems to be your agenda.  You’re not pushing for victims to be believed, as you don’t believe Carole’s version of events, and you’re not actually agreeing with Sinason’s approach, but you keep insisting that things be interpreted so Sinason and Fisher look good.)

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    Do you have evidence you’re not sharing, or are you just utterly
    determined to interpret things in a way that makes Fisher and Sinason
    look good?

    Considering the bit where tessa first popped in referring to Carole as “Clare,” I strongly suspect that, no, our little sock puppet does not have any inside information worth divulging.

  • ako

    I didn’t think so.  I just wanted to give her a chance to say whether her bizarre interpretations were based on anything.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    remember this, there are people in the UK who have information and evidence you know nothing about…

    “Also, I do so have a girlfriend! It’s just that she lives in Canada, and can’t come visit anytime soon… because she’s in the Peace Corps…”

    …people who lived and worked in the region that carol was from;

    I have heard that small English towns are different.

    pipe down all of you and comment on ALL of the facts…

    Actually, most of us are commenting on the remarks made by Ms. Sinason about Satanic cults and how they reflect on her judgement, rationality, and overall compitence as a mental-health-provider.

    So unless you want to provide a source where Ms. Sinason disavows the things she’s said she believes in (barbequed babies and ritualized beastality in the name of Satanic worship) I’d say you’re the one who needs to “pipe down”.

  • Lori

     remember this, there are people in the UK who have information and evidence that you know nothing about, peope who lived and worked in the region that Carol was from; and before you all start ranting and raving, this has nothing to do with Satanic Panic.  

    So, do the lurkers support you in email too? Meyers claimed to have been ritually abused by Satanists. People believed that this was the case. That’s pretty much the definition of Satanic Panic. 

    Because whatever else was true about Ms Myers’ unfortunate life, she was not ritually abused by Satanists. 

    So you pipe down. 

  • Lori

    So I’m wondering how this works. Supposedly flinching in the presence of the colors green and purple means that one was a victim of Satanic abuse. Does that mean that liking green & purple makes you a Satanist? What if you’re like me and you only like certain shades of green & purple. Am I heretic of some sort or just a bad Satanist? 

  • FangsFirst

    Satanic heresy! A pox on your lavender and lime!

  • ako

    And is the Joker involved in any capacity?

  • FangsFirst

    Wouldn’t that require at least red and white additionally?

  • ako

    Not if they only saw him from the back.

  • Lori

    I assume that if the Joker gets involved you’ve got some sort of Satanist equivalent to the Catholic/Protestant split. I can’t imagine the Joker being orthodox anything. 

  • ako

    Harley Quinn would probably follow him around trying to start The Church of Mr. J, but he’d keep violating the rules of his own religion.  It’d be like Discordianism, without the bit where everyone kept repeating the same jokes.

  • Rikalous

    The Joker can’t be involved. He would demand salt and pepper with his fetus, and add it using adorable novelty shakers.

  • Rikalous

    Rereading the quoted section, I think Sinason is claiming that limping is a sign of an abuser, not an abuse victim. She seems to be saying she could tell that a couple of medical professionals had hurt Meyers from the way one of them was limping. That’s even more bizarre than I originally thought.

    Green and purple are the colors of more comic book villains than the Joker. The Green Goblin dresses in purple, Lex Luthor had a green-and-purple armored suit*, and so forth. Hulk has the same scheme, but the ol’ bundle of rage is pretty antiheroic. More traditional heroes like Superman and Spiderman get red and blue costumes. This may or may not be tapping into something archetypal, I don’t know enough to say.

    *Yes, really. The one story I read with it had him noting how ridiculous it was that he was donning it to fight Superman. Especially considering he was the president at the time.

  • FangsFirst

    Back on Superfriends and in that era in general, Luthor just wore a green and purple costume, even outside his infamous suit of armour. Well, green and fuschia or something. Close enough.

  • Diona the Lurker

    If Lex knew the suit was ridiculous, why did make it in the first place?

  • Matri

    If Lex knew the suit was ridiculous, why did make it in the first place?

    You think the police are going to believe you when you tell them the richest, most respected person in town just stole as many a four tens of cakes while dressed in a ridiculously garish purple & green spandex two-piece?

  • Rikalous

    If Lex knew the suit was ridiculous, why did make it in the first place?

    It was an Iron-Man-type supersuit, and the only way Lex had to fight Supes on an equal footing. Sometimes the president just needs to punch an alien in the face for the benefit of us all.

  • Rikalous

    If Lex knew the suit was ridiculous, why did make it in the first place?

    It was an Iron-Man-type supersuit, and the only way Lex had to fight Supes on an equal footing. Sometimes the president just needs to punch an alien in the face for the benefit of us all.

  • Anonymous

    Lex Luthor had a green-and-purple armored suit

    snip

    The one story I read with it had him noting how ridiculous it was that he was donning it to fight Superman.

    Someone has probably already beaten me to this, but this was a reference to the old “supervillain in a costume” Lex Luthor of the Silver Age.  He wore a green-and-purple (or was it purple and green) jumpsuit thingy.

    And now that I think of it, Brainiac wore purple and green in the Silver Age, as well . . . .

  • http://nobleexperiments.blogspot.com/ NobleExperiments

    I had a family member who ended up with a “therapist” who helped him “recover” memories of being abused by family members as an infant (not Satanic Panic, but this was the early 1990s when all that was happening).  This “therapist” told me flat out that if a person has disordered eating (anorexia, overeating, etc.), then that person has been sexually abused as a child – absolutely, no question – even if there was no memory of abuse….. it was “too traumatic and had been blocked out.”

    Sorry to say, my family member held on to this explanation for all of his problems with both hands…. it was all someone else’s fault, right?  His mother wanted to sue the “therapist”, but has been noted above, anyone can call themselves a therapist or counselor and be free of repercussions.

    Dr. Elizabeth Loftus is mentioned in the OP; I wrote her an email not long ago thanking her for her work bringing false memory syndrome to light.  Too many people were victimized by this theory – remember all the day care workers who went to jail and/or had their lives ruined by “ritual Satanic abuse” allegations?

  • Davefelstead

    I am David Felstead, I am Carol’s brother. I have been reading this forum with great interest. The article in the Sunday Observer is only part of this scandalous story. For more information please visit http://www.justiceforcarol.com/.

    Listen to Dr Fisher steal Carol’s car here: http://justiceforcarol.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/phonerecording.mp3

    Here is the actual complaint made to the General Medical Council: http://justiceforcarol.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/OfficialComplaint.pdf

    Here is a letter from Valerie Sinason relating to her treatment of Carol: http://justiceforcarol.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Valerie-Sinason-1st-SRA-Patient1-Page-1.pdf

    http://justiceforcarol.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Valerie-Sinason-1st-SRA-Patient-Page-2.pdf

    Here is an article from the Sunday Times in which Dr Fleur Fisher confirms in her own words to the journalist that Carol had no memories of any ritual abuse before meeting Dr Fisher: http://www.richardfelstead.com/sunday-times-article-satanic-abuse-claims-doomed-our-girl/

  • Luke

    Just found another article regarding this case written by the UK newspaper Private Eye http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/eyefelsteadmyers.htm giving even more information about this scandal!

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    This looks possibly relevant:

    Brad Hicks talks about being stalked by a religious bigot cop who believed this stuff

    So he [the cop] spent a lot of time, I later found out, trying to find any little
    boy in St. Louis who would testify that I had made sexual advances to
    him. Even in the absence of such evidence, he kept warning parents
    groups about me as a probable pedophile, and even gave an interview to
    the local NBC affiliate’s TV news show to that effect. (My lawyer told
    me to let it go. He said that hardly anybody had seen it, that even
    fewer of them would remember it, and that a lawsuit even if it cleared
    me would only cement the accusation in the public’s mind. I followed
    that advice, but I still resent it.)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Somehow I think that cop doth protest a little bit much.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Coprophagy, brown showers, golden showers, semen-drinking, sewing kids inside dead animals, cannibalism, bestiality…  All to show RTCs what Those Satanists Do Deep In Their Dens.

    Sure sounds like “Porn for the Pious.”  And fairly Hardcore at that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

    Quite a few of Superman and Spider-Man’s classic villains wore green, purple, and/or yellow because the coloring limitations of Silver Age comics meant you couldn’t do many subtle gradations of color. So you want your villain to stand out from your hero at a glance.

    Thus we get lots of green, purple and yellow with: Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Mr. Mxyptlk, Mongul, and the Prankster (for Superman) and the Green Goblin, the Lizard, Electro, the Vulture, Doctor Octopus, the Scorpion, the Beetle, Mysterio, the Sandman, the Molten Man… okay, pretty much every Silver Age Spidey villain.

    In Lex Luthor’s defense, I would like to note that when he donned the green-and-purple power armor near the end of the “Public Enemies” story arc he had been shooting up a drug created from Kryptonite and Venom for a while. And the suit was built with Apokalyptian technology, so who knows what it was doing to his mind.


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X