On Christianity and marriage equality (part 3)

The future looks grim for the anti-gay moralists.”

“In 2005 the Supreme Court made sodomy legal in all 50 states and since then there have been absolutely no reports of anyone turning into a pillar of salt.”

“The most important cultural change that has increased support for same-sex marriage is the equality revolution within heterosexual marriage.”

“It’s a contest between the Golden Rule and the condemnations of homosexual acts in Leviticus and Paul’s Letter to the Romans.”

The literal approach to scripture was used to enslave black people.”

“Homosexual behavior is a fault line splitting Christian denominations in two — Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics — there’s even a wide gulf between young and old Evangelicals.”

“My religion has, compels me — and I love it for it — to be against discrimination of any kind in our country, and I consider this a form of discrimination.”

“Opposition to same-sex marriage has dropped, even among evangelicals.”

“When the black president says marriage is for everybody, straight or gay, and that it comes out of his faith, it elicits a visceral response from African-American Christians who have staked their spiritual and social lives on the institution of marriage.”

Sojourners’ Statement on President Obama’s Endorsement of Same-Sex Marriage”

The more conservative churches need to know, need to be reassured that their religious liberty is going to be respected here.”

I’ve given up on [Jim] Wallis and his Sojourners group — which I used to support very strongly — because of Wallis’s refusal to support gay rights.”

He was given an opportunity here to actually be a leader and I guess he didn’t take that leadership role.”

“They had the chance right there to stand up for a little guy against a bully and they muffed it.”

“As civil rights leaders we cannot fight to gain rights for some and not for all.”

“Dignity — whether it be regarding civil marriage or service to one’s community — is fundamental to individual liberty and the rule of law.”

“This isn’t ‘old-fashioned prejudice’ or ‘old-fashioned bigotry,’ this is the new-fashioned bigotry that the Christianist and Bircher right have normalized for us all.”

  • Baby_Raptor

    RE the Religion Dispatches article: I don’t buy it. For several reasons.

    First off, Obama said in his statement that he believes the matter should be handled at the state level–IE that, for all the glory in his new view, he isn’t actually doing anything about it. So why would they need reassured that his views changing isn’t a threat? 

    Second, these people are the kinds of people that see others having rights as persecution. They don’t want a true solution that respects both views…That has been implemented in several states already, and they choose to willfully deny that what they threaten isn’t reality. They’re still out there screaming that pastors will be jailed for preaching that homosexuality is wrong, or that they’ll be jailed for refusing to do same sex marriages. I stand open to correction if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure there would be a veritable shitstorm if something like this had happened, yet…We’ve heard nothing. What they want is their view codified into law. 

    Third, and this is a personal opinion and may seem like an insult, but…How egotistical do you have to be to look at a situation where you’re talking about giving a group civil rights and your reaction is to start warping it into “Me, Me, ME! MY OPINIONS!”? 

  • Tricksterson

    Legal same sex marriage in Massachusetts for eight years now and no fiery vengeance from the heavens, no rise in the heterosexual divorce rate and the only churches being padlocked are at the behest of the Catholic Church crying poverty for having to pay off families their priests violated along with a side order of punishment for daring to bring up the subject in the first place.

  • P J Evans

    Marriage is covered by state law, and has to be handled by the states (some of which seem to be trying to go backwards in time at high speed).

    What can be done at the federal level is to treat same-sex marriages the same as ‘traditional’ marriages, whether it requires repealing discriminatory laws or issuing federal orders – and you’re correct that he’s not doing what he actually can do. (But I don’t think he was ready to make that statement this year, and maybe not before 2017.)

  • friendly reader

    This was basically the argument John Kerry presented for his flip on the issue: any possible worry he might have had about the outcomes of gay marriage (further attempts at redefinition, infringement of religious liberties) have proved non-existent in Massachusetts and aren’t likely to appear anywhere else. And with that being the case, it doesn’t matter what you might believe about the religious meaning of marriage, you need to have it be legal under our secular government.

  • Daughter

     The RD article basically seems to say that African-Americans as a group have mixed opinions about marriage equality, just like every other group. Even within the black church, the author points out that some support and some oppose marriage quality.

    (A little aside here: Norman Goldman was on the radio the other day, shouting about how dare AA’s oppose marriage equality when they’ve been oppressed. Not that I think opposition to marriage equality is a good thing, but black people are human just like everyone else, so they have the same flaws. Would that everyone would empathize with others based on their own suffering, but it doesn’t happen that way. Oppression in Europe didn’t stop American colonials from oppressing Native Americans and black slaves. Enduring the Holocaust didn’t stop Israelis from oppressing Palestinians).

    More in a sec.

  • Daughter

     Furthermore, Ta-Nehisi Coates (yeah, I quote him a lot) points out that support for marriage equality has been growing at a faster rate among African-Americans than among whites, and furthermore, a politician’s stance on LGBT rights has never been an issue in terms of whether most AA’s will vote for or against that person.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/marriage-equality-will-not-hurt-obama-among-black-voters-at-all/257164/

    And Think Progress notes that there has been a 11 point bump in support for marriage equality among AAs in North Carolina since President Obama made his announcement.

    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/05/17/486187/obama-african-americans-marriage/

  • PollyAmory

    Was it me or was the Sojourners’ statement equivocating as all get-out?

  • Lori

    “When you read the Bible, you can find justification for almost anything,” she says, “including slavery, the subjection of women and an argument that the sun actually revolves around the earth.” 

    As we recently learned that it also supports believing that the moon is a light source instead of a reflector. (That was a new one for me and I just can’t get over it.)

    As we’ve said here many times, in many ways, when your faith makes you believe things that are flatly, demonstrably, no opinion involved untrue then you need to examine your life.

  • Lori

    Was it me or was the Sojourners’ statement equivocating as all get-out?

    Not just you.

    It basically said the right thing and then placed the burden on those who are on the right side of the issue to placate those on the wrong side of it. I’m getting so very tired of that.

  • Tonio

    The Coontz article could have gone further and noticed the very strong correlation between opposition to SSM and belief in the old sexist gender roles. There was nothing right or just about “legal codes that assigned differing marital rights and obligations by gender,” and the people who claim to oppose “redefining marriage” seem to favor resurrecting that idea, if not in law then certainly in custom. Wife and husband shouldn’t be names for gender-specific roles in marriage, if anything they should simply be gender-specific names for spouses.

  • Lori

     

      The RD article basically seems to say that African-Americans as a group
    have mixed opinions about marriage equality, just like every other
    group. Even within the black church, the author points out that some
    support and some oppose marriage quality.  

    On the subject of opinions varying within the AA community, just like every other community—the NAACP has endorsed marriage equality.

    http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/05/naacp-backs-gay-marriage-123964.html#.T7gcOL7v-24.twitter

    (Word to the wise—skip the comments at that link because there’s a whole lot of hateful, racist stupidity on display and nobody needs that crap on a fine Saturday evening, or ever.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

     

    They have repeatedly demonstrated that they don’t want to be reassured, they want to be kowotowed to.

    The most annoying lie that they tell is the one where they say that they would be OK with giving same-sex couples civil rights as long as they stayed away from the word “marriage”. You see, marriage is a sacrament, and if gays would just stop trying to take it for their own use then they could all reach some kind of accord where everybody gets most of what they want.

    (Meanwhile, they pass things like Amendment One, which prohibits not only same-sex marriage but same-sex civil unions and bars the state from granting any other package of civil rights and benefits to same-sex couples in any form. Which to me means that it’s not really about the word or about compromising at all; it’s all about making sure same-sex relationships can be denigrated as much as possible in any arena they can find.)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    http://imgur.com/gallery/LLSx3

    I’d say that’s fairly accurate, though my info is all hearsay-ish.

  • ako

     This.  They keep trying to create the impression that they just want a nice reasonable middle-ground compromise, but if you look at the actions and not the rhetoric, it’s pretty clear that their idea of a reasonable middle-ground compromise would be “We outlaw same-sex marriage and all civil unions or other benefits, ban you people from adopting or otherwise raising children, and re-institute anti-sodomy laws making it technically illegal for you people to have sex, but we only selectively enforce the last bit so most of you aren’t actually in prison.” 

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     “‘Live and let live’ is, at best, a load of crap. It basically boils down
    to: ‘If I don’t tell you I’m a fag, you won’t beat the crap out of me’.
    What kind of philosophy is that?” (The Laramie Project)

  • Mau de Katt

    ” The future looks grim for the
    anti-gay moralists.

    And, of course, there are the discouraging facts that younger people and
    urban people are increasingly less tolerant of anti-gay theology, along
    with city dwellers and the educated.

    So, basically, the Fundagelical Right’s best hope is older, poorly-educated, suburban and country folk?

    Just because something’s a stereotype, doesn’t mean that there’re times it’s not true….


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