Michele Bachmann, Rick Warren telling lies for Jesus that hurt poor women

“Let’s love people,” Rep. Michele Bachmann said, “let’s care about people.”

The Minnesota Republican said this, perversely, in support of the 39th attempt to repeal the Affordable Care Act. Igor Volsky of Think Progress provides a fuller context for Bachmann’s odd remarks:

While the main coverage expansion provisions will go into effect in 2014, the ACA has so far saved seniors over $6 billion on prescription drugs, reduced administrative overhead, deterred private insurers from requesting double digit premium increaseskept millions of young people on their parents’ health care plans, and provided 34.1 million people with Medicare preventive services without additional cost-sharing.

Moments after calling for the complete repeal of a law that will extend health care coverage to 30 million Americans, Bachmann claimed that her belief in Christ inspires her to care “for the least of those who are in our midst.”

Bachmann, in other words, is arguing that we should “love” seniors by transferring $6 billion from their pockets into the coffers of pharmaceutical companies and by denying 34.1 million of them access to preventive health care. She wants us to “love” working people by charging them higher premiums for health insurance. And she wants us to “love” millions of young adults by kicking them off of their parents insurance plans.

Can’t you just feel the love?

Bachmann went on to argue that increased access to affordable health insurance “literally kills women, kills children, kills senior citizens.”

But perhaps the weirdest moment in Bachmann’s speech — amidst the blasphemous misquotations of scripture and the whole-cloth fabrications of bogus statistics and “death panel” lies — was the moment when she asked, “Where are poor women supposed to go?” for health care.

I’m glad she’s at least asking that question, even if she’s not interested in finding out the answer. For tens of millions of poor women, that question will have a new answer once the Affordable Care Act is fully implemented, but for millions more the answer will remain the same as it has been for years now in America. Poor women will go to the one place poor women have always gone for affordable, reliable access to the health care that is otherwise denied them because they are poor and because they are women: They will go to Planned Parenthood.

This is not a secret. Planned Parenthood has more than 750 centers throughout the United States that serve more than three million people every year. One in five American women has gotten medical care from Planned Parenthood at some point in their lives.

And most of that has nothing to do with abortion. Abortion services account for only 3 percent of what Planned Parenthood does. But then it’s not really accurate to say that the other 97 percent of the care they provide has nothing to do with abortion — that care, from family planning to prenatal care to preventive and nutritional care for pregnant women and their children, means that Planned Parenthood does more to prevent abortion than any “pro-life” organization, maybe even more than all of them put together.

So how is it that someone like Michele Bachmann doesn’t know this?

She doesn’t know this because she doesn’t want to know this.

Neither does the Rev. Rick Warren, who recently tweeted this bit of pastoral malpractice:

Planned Parenthood is the McDonalds of abortion. It’s the #1 baby killing franchise.

No need to play “stupid or evil?” with that one. It’s both. The stupid and the evil are mutually reinforcing.

Warren is supposed to be the pastor to a congregation of 25,000 people. About half of his “flock” are women. Granted, Warren’s Saddleback church isn’t a working-class congregation, and many of its members are wealthy enough that they never have to worry about relying on any place with the word “clinic” in the title (unless it’s the Mayo Clinic). But it’s still a statistical certainty that the congregation of Saddleback Church includes hundreds of women who rely on Planned Parenthood for health care they cannot afford to get elsewhere. And that congregation likely includes thousands of women who have relied on it in the past.

But if punching down at the less-wealthy women in his congregation is the price of indulging in smug self-congratulation, that’s a price Rick Warren is happy to pay.

If telling himself that he’s a good person requires him to treat others badly, then he’ll enthusiastically play the role of anti-pastor to hundreds of members of his flock.

After all, what’s more important? To do good and be good? Or to reassure himself that he’s better than the Satanic baby-killers?

Warren, like Bachmann, chooses the latter every time. That’s evil. And it makes Warren stupid in that it causes him to be more ignorant than he otherwise would be or could be or should be. It guarantees that hundreds of women in his congregation who know things he does not know — things he ought to know and needs to know — will never share that knowledge with him. He’s made it clear he doesn’t want to hear it.

He’s made it clear that it would not be safe for them to tell him the truth they know. And thus it guarantees that he will never learn from them.

I’m sure that Warren’s first reaction to all of this would be to deny that any woman who attends Saddleback would ever go to Planned Parenthood and to assert that the women of his congregation surely all agree with his flippant dismissal and condemnation of that vital lifeline for poor women. After all, he likely thinks, no one has ever told him otherwise. And I doubt he can be made to understand why that is. I doubt he will ever realize how he has made it impossible for anyone to ever be honest with him, or to ever tell him anything he clearly doesn’t want to know.

That is not a good place to be. You have to take quite a few wrong turns to end up in the situation Rick Warren has created for himself — a situation in which being cruel to others boosts his self-esteem, a situation in which ignorantly condemning hundreds of people in his own congregation makes him feel like he’s being a better pastor.

“Where are poor women supposed to go” for pastoral care at Saddleback? Not to their pastor. He’s made it crystal clear that he’d rather shame them than listen to them. He’s made it abundantly clear that he isn’t interested in understanding them, in learning about their lives or learning from their lives. He’s made it clear that if they ask for bread he will give them a stone, if they ask for a fish he will give them a snake.

“Pastor” Warren offers them only condemnation — and not even because of anything they have actually done wrong, but only because condemning them is his preferred shorthand for praising himself and his own presumed righteousness.

Not good. Not smart. Not something any decent pastor should ever do.

The better way, the most excellent way, would be instead to love and care for people. And I’d say exactly that — I’d say, “Let’s love people, let’s care about people.” But thanks to folks like Michele Bachmann and Rick Warren, those words have become much harder to understand.

 

  • hidden_urchin

    ” Love” here is like Christianity in the LB books. It’s not about actions but passionately and sincerely holding the right beliefs. That way, you can act like a horrible person and still feel good about yourself.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Ever since my father read The Phantom Tollbooth to me as a child, he told me that there was nothing inherently wrong with ignorance, it simply means something you do not yet know. However, willful ignorance was always a Bad Thing.

    You know, I get the feeling that people like Rick Warren are trolls. Maybe not self-awarely so, but he is sure to get a lot of angry corrections for statements like that, or even angry condemnations for being an idiot. I think he and others like that actually get off on getting that kind of hate from people he does not care about, “Godless sodomites” who hate him for his righteousness and all that, gives him more of that smug satisfaction.

  • Carstonio

    The McDonald’s of abortion? That explains why the PP in my area has a drive-thru. The Dollar Menu is all condoms.

  • Carstonio

    Bachmann didn’t do so well when confronted by a reporter recently. I would still love for someone to get into a righteous argument with either Bachmann or Warren until they end up stating outright that they’re slut-shaming.

  • ReverendRef

    But see, that’s the thing — It’s so much easier to give standard, pat, easy answers so people don’t have to think. It’s so much easier to tweet Planned Parenthood is the McDonalds of abortion. It’s the #1 baby killing franchise. than it is to actually do the research to find out what PP is all about or to learn about how many different ways they help women.

    It’s so much easier to loudly proclaim, “God hates fags,” after reading one verse in the Bible than it is to engage the text and your brain to see how that might not be the case.

    And let’s face it: pat, easy answers that whip up support against THOSE PEOPLE are what pay the bills.

    And here I need Don LaFontaine: In a world where securing large donations has become the benchmark of Christianity . . .”

  • Jeff

    Fred, you never let the facts get in the way of a good screed about those evil white evangelicals. While I carry no water for Warren or Saddleback, it took only an ounce of effort to read about the PEACE center: http://www.saddleback.com/aboutsaddleback/peacecenter/. Once more, with gusto: rejecting the /liberal solution/ to a problem is not tantamount to evil behavior.

  • EllieMurasaki

    What, then, is the conservative solution, and will it actually, y’know, solve the problem, or is it (like most conservative solutions) merely sweeping the problem under the rug and pretending that made the problem go away?

  • Jeff

    But you’re right about the inapt McDonald’s comparison. After all, McDonald’s has a 46% share of the burger market, whereas PP performs only a piddly 27% of the nation’s abortions.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I hate all this lying. I hate the hatred, the faux-pity they pretend to have for people while sneering beneath a veneer of politeness because it’s just not politic to condemn the masses. Not where the masses can hear, at least.

    Mostly sick that people like this live lives of outrageous luxury wherein their only pains are self-inflicted fear and loathing of the Other while the thought of where I might be this time next year is horrifying. I’m visiting family in Michigan next month and trying hard not to imagine that this is a trial run for a permanent living arrangement.

  • Edo

    “Love” here is just amor. An emotion. Purely internalized. A light you can hide under a bushel basket. (And the flip side of it is that “charity” is a purely externalized thing, and something bad to accept.)

    As long as that disconnect is there, God is absent, and Ubi caritas et amor is vain repetition.

  • Edo

    I’m not sure it’s so much “not having to think” as “not having to care.” It’s so much easier to say “I thank you, Lord, that I am not like other people” than to say “Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

  • AnonaMiss

    From your link:

    To receive services, patients must provide: … proof of Orange County residency …

    Sure is helping a lot of poor people, that PEACE medical center.

  • Carstonio

    Forcing women to carry pregnancies to term? Shaming women who don’t want to become mothers? Demonizing programs and organizations that provide health care for poor women? Sounds like evil behavior to me.

    Folks like Warren treat abortion the same way they treat situations where children are being raised without fathers, blaming both on women. There are all sorts of reasons for the latter, yet the Warrens focus only on the situations where women plan to raise children without fathers (the Murphy Browns and the lesbian couples). As Fred has said many times, they give the very strong impression that they’re out not to stop abortions but to control women.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Why limit oneself to both? I’ve seen many people use a combination of the two in the form of “we’re all sinners, some of us more than others.” That lets them pretend to feel bad for affecting not to see the homeless veteran they pass by every day while patting themselves on the back for “not enabling his booze habits.”

    (Disqus seems to be screwing with formatting more than ever. I didn’t even copy and paste anything in that one.)

  • SisterCoyote

    I count ten locations of the PEACE center, and if I’m not much mistaken, all of them are on the west coast. Furthermore, I’m highly suspect of any such outreach group – are atheist women welcome there? Jewish women? Catholic women? Lesbian women? There’s a lot of information there about what they believe, and not a whole lot about what they DO.

    Planned Parenthood is all over the country, helps women without preaching to them or converting them or shaming them for their actions, beliefs, or lifestyles, and is unlikely to turn someone away because they show up with a partner of the same sex. This is really, really not even close to what Planned Parenthood accomplishes. But nice try.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Proof of residency and verification of income and proof of insurance… yes, all things your average poor person has, no problem. -_-

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Also, their AIDS/HIV support appears to be “if you have AIDS/HIV, we’ll tell you about your sinful lifestyle and offer to help you make it up to Christ for your shame!”

  • Jeff

    Sister, the point is simply that Fred’s piece scurrilously alleges that by condemning PP, Warren is implicitly denying members of his congregration access to health care that they need, thereby rejecting his obligation as a Christian and a pastor to care for the poor and cementing his status as an evil person. The problem for Fred’s narrative is that Warren IS caring for the poor, just not in the way Fred wants him to. That’s not evil, it’s just a different way of doing things.
    The mention of the PEACE center in this context is exclusively with respect to what it says about Warren’s character vis a vis Fred’s allegations. It’s not to say that the PEACE center is a large-scale alternative to PP, although I do think such centers are a good example of programs that churches should support. A similar center exists in my area, and our church supports it (as do many other churches), and it provides medical care to a lot of people, and is perceived as a good resource by pretty much everyone in the community.

  • smrnda

    On ‘rejecting the liberal solution’ – if you’re going to reject a proposed solution, you are obliged to at least state what that solution *is* accurately and explain why its proposed courses of action will either not work or not work well. Very very few critics of the Affordable Care Act bother to do anything aside from spout about how it will *cause more harm than good* without proving any evidence they even know a thing about the act and what it entails. Bachmann clearly has no interest in researching facts, she’s made a career spouting simplistic slogans that energize a base that dislikes thinking. It’s a ‘liberal solution’ and therefore is bad, and the basic conservative talking point is that any ‘liberal solution’ will cause the downfall of civilization, no evidence required. You get this with the anti-gay marriage crowd who, in spite of evidence that gay marriage has been legalized and the sky hasn’t fallen in many places, maintain that as their strongest point.

    I truly believe that many of these people are stupid enough to believe they really know what’s going on. It’s what happens when you live in a bubble where everybody already *knows* what’s true and further research or evidence isn’t required.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=9700052 Joseph Parmalee
  • AnonaMiss

    To be fair, they did say they had sliding rates for people without insurance and added “(if applicable)”. So I assume they don’t actually require you to be insured.

    They do require you to have a home and be employed, though. And the home has to be in Orange County, which is famous as one of the wealthiest areas in the whole country. So good luck with that.

  • Edo

    It’s always “some of us,” isn’t it? And it always really means “some of you.” (The same way that “morals” is totally personalized, so that the vet’s immoral for his alcoholism but I’m not for corporate raiding that liquidates local society.)

  • SisterCoyote

    I suppose I see your point – that Rick Warren is providing health care to the women of his congregation, with his PEACE centers. The problem is, you can see the multiple issues with the PEACE center. They don’t really help poor women, or homeless women, or women without income – and while he offers this, he attacks and slanders the people who actually are helping poor and homeless women – he bears false witness against them.

    Just one example, off the top of my head – Planned Parenthood provides pap smears; without it, many women would be unable to get them, and risk dying of cervical cancer. I know at least one person who would almost certainly be dead without their help, and her son without a mother. Yet Rick Warren calls it “The McDonald’s of abortions,” ignoring the multitude of absolutely necessary services it provides to poor women, women who cannot afford the health care his PEACE center offers. That’s bearing false witness, and it’s wrong, and it’s harmful, directly harmful, to the women who rely on it.

  • smrnda

    Let’s say there are two ways of helping people. We can collect taxes and provide social services, or we can leave it up to churches and other agencies. I’d say the first is good, because people can get help if they need it with no strings attached and without there existing a possibility that someone will turn ‘giving help’ into a recruitment tool for their religion. The second is just so religious people can enjoy using their privileges to feel better about themselves and get vulnerable people to grovel at the feet of their social club.

    There are poor people who do not want help if it’s coming from a religious source. I am very grateful that, when I needed assistance on disability, that the secular welfare state was there for me. To me, the ‘let’s leave this up to churches’ is just as much a ‘my way or the highway’ approach as the idea that only the government option is good. I think it is a bad approach, because a lot of needy people would prefer help without the recruitment or ‘personal touch’ offered by religious agencies. When religious agencies oppose government solution, it’s just that they want to enjoy the power they have over vulnerable people.

    They would hate to know that I just got money from the government when I couldn’t work. They wanted to take a *personal interest* in me and offer help on their terms, rather than mine.

  • http://mordicai.livejournal.com Mordicai

    This comment just made me think of the hilarious cost/benefit analysis on a condom & then despair on account of buffoonish lying evil clowns like Bachmann & Warren.

  • http://mordicai.livejournal.com Mordicai

    “We have our own charity so it is okay to actively oppose other people’s charities” is not like, a superior ethical stance.

  • Amy

    Please take 10 seconds to google “Orange County Poverty” and one minute to read the top results before jumping to conclusions.

    Here’s place to start:http://www.capoc.org/awareness/
    227,820 or 44% of Orange County children received free and reduced lunch during the 2009/10 school year.
    An estimated 10.9% (nearly 83,000) of Orange County Children lacked health care coverage.
    30.4% of Orange County Households are unable to meet their basic needs, 90.9% of these households are working families.
    15.8% of all workers over the age of 16 earn below $25,000/year. 12.2% of individual residents in Orange County live below the federal poverty threshold.
    etc., etc., etc.

    I won’t try to defend Pastor Rick’s tweet because I think it was a stupid, thoughtless thing to say. But I will defend the church I’ve been a member of since 2001. The people of Saddleback have done more to help poor people, locally and globally, than any local church body in the history of the planet. We aren’t all rich. Many of us are working class. Many, like my husband, are praying every day to find a job, any job.

    We aren’t immune to or above criticism and neither are any church leaders including Rick Warren. But criticism is only constructive when based on reality, not on stereotypes. Passing judgment without any facts just makes you look more foolish than the people you’re criticizing.

  • Jeff

    Come on Mordicai, think. Why do you suppose Warren opposes PP?
    The answer should be obvious: because PP provides abortion services, and Warren opposes abortion. It’s not a matter of which charity is better, it’s that one does something that Warren finds morally reprehensible, so he speaks out against it.
    Ah, Fred says, but PP does other stuff, and (assumption) people in Warren’s church need that other stuff, so by opposing PP, Warren is obstructing people from getting the other services that they need, and obstructing people from getting services they need is evil, therefore, Warren is evil.
    Fred’s argument isn’t actually about whether people are getting the services they need; that’s just a prop he’s using to condemn Warren. And the way we know that is because Warren’s church actually DOES provide health services to the disadvantaged. But of course Fred doesn’t mention that.

  • pastorboy

    I am just dying to have the author answer the question: When is murder okay? Do all females deserve the protection of our legal and health care system? Then we can determine whether or not this is a hypocritical offering or genuine concern for all females- including those who are in the womb.

  • John (not McCain)

    Your church is led by an anti-American scumbag who wants the government to force me to live according to his weirdo beliefs. Screw him and you.

  • John (not McCain)

    So? You got some kind of problem with a woman having control of her own body? Why not move to Iran – they think and act a lot like you do over there.

  • P J Evans

    If you think that tweet was thoughtless and stupid, then make sure that he knows what you think, Be sure to include actual facts about PP, too, so he can’t claim he doesn’t know. (Abortion: less than three percent of what they do, and it’s *referring people to other places* that actually do provide them.)

  • P J Evans

    Because what they do is refer women to clinics that actually provide them, in the states that still have those clinics.
    Abortion is THREE FUCKING PERCENT of what PP does. Warren is a lying hypocrite.

  • P J Evans

    Not paying her campaign workers, demanding that they sign non-disclosure statements before paying them (and that’s non-disclosure of*illegal activities*), alleged theft of at least one mailing list…

  • http://mordicai.livejournal.com Mordicai

    Honestly, I’m far more concerned abotu Michele Bachmann, who is an elected official. Warren using religion & money to justify & advance his ideology is hardly surprising. Bachmann is a secular elected official working hard to deny people of legal medical services. Far more reprehensible.

    Also, trying to reduce Planned Parenthood to abortion services is about as silly as trying to reduce any hospital that provides abortions to that medical procedure. Which is to say, silly. & just like I find it wicked that a Scientologist might try to prevent people from seeking mental health treatment or a Jehovah’s Witness might want to prevent others from access to blood transfusions, I find Warren’s actions equally objectionable.

  • P J Evans

    There are plenty of posts that make it clear. Go, read.

  • JustoneK

    Tell me when you think it’s okay to let a mother die instead of getting an abortion and leaving her OTHER CHILDREN BEHIND first. This does happen. Continues to happen. Pregnancy’s gone ectopic, fetus is dead (and in one case is slated to be born without a brain entirely), mother has other children and a job and a family that already love her, but dies on the table instead of an abortion or removal of a dead fetus. Ass.

    Fred’s pretty clear on his point.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Warren’s church possibly doing good things for some local women in no way, shape, or form effects the evil Warren is doing. You’re looking for ways to excuse the man because you agree with him. Please stop this. It’s not only wrong, but you’re making yourself complicit in the damage he’s doing.

    Further, Fred is an evangelical. I don’t know if he’s white, but he’s certainly not racist. So you’re just picking on him for things you’re reading into his posts, which probably means you’re projecting.

    Lastly, Conservatives don’t have a solution to the abortion “problem.” (Sarcastic airquotes, because I don’t really think abortion is a problem. But I say that as someone whose life was saved by one…Something you’ll NEVER have happen to you.) The conservatives who talk about abortion are all pro-forced birthers who talk about making abortion illegal, teaching abstinence and getting rid of birth control. Everything they do is designed to make the number of abortions *skyrocket,* even if they do make abortion impossible to get legally.

    So, yes. In this particular case, disagreeing with the liberal position IS evil behavior. When they manage to come up with an answer to the problem that *doesn’t* turn women into slaves, cost women their lives, and actually diminish the need for abortion, it won’t be. Til then, they can Fuck right off to wherever evil people go when they die, if such a place even exists.

  • AnonaMiss

    My point wasn’t that no poor people live there, but rather that we should expect housing prices to be very high, with a correspondingly high rate of homelessness among the local poor & working class.

    Since Saddleback’s PEACE Medical Center requires a proof of residence, it turns away the homeless; and since Orange County is so wealthy, it’s more likely that those in need of care will be homeless and therefore turned away.

    I didn’t at all mean to imply that everyone in Orange County is wealthy, though rereading my comment, I can see I didn’t express myself very well.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I suspect Fred would say, were he one to respond directly to comments, that the justification lies between God and the person getting an abortion and is not owed to the people who would shame them.

    Then you would be asked (by the armchair commentariat if not by Fred) when it is appropriate for the concern for someone in the womb to override concern for the person who owns that womb, and to what extent is it justifiable to sacrifice someone’s health, even life, to satisfy an unwanted stranger’s intrusion. Would I be justified in compelling you against your will to provide your blood or organs to treat my illness?

  • pastorboy

    I did; didn’t see any response from the author. Face it; the author approves of the murder of babies, which, by the way, the number of abortions performed is nearly 3-1 minority to white. This was Sanger’s plan from the get go. And you demonize those trying to stop it. Good one- woe to you who call evil good and good evil.

  • AnonaMiss

    Dear Pastorboy,

    Do all people deserve the protection of our legal and health care system, including those who are still in the form of two separate gametes? Sperm and eggs have human DNA! They’re living human cells!

    Protect life: outlaw ejaculation except at sperm banks, where every sperm can be saved.

  • pastorboy

    Sam, The DNA of the baby is unique. Abortion and Planned Parenthood from their genesis is ultimately racist; the goal was to murder the babies of minorities and immigrants. I wonder how that would fly if we were to pull back the whitewashed veil and call it what it is- eugenics- same stuff Hitler tried in Nazi Germany.

  • pastorboy

    Yes, when they come together to form a human being then yes. The Bible is the sole arbiter of right and wrong. The Bible is right, and any who say different are wrong.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Okay, you asked your question. Now get back to us with undeniable, non-religious proof life starts somewhere before the third trimester. And after that, explain why fetuses deserve to be the sole exception to the fact that we, as a country, condemn forcing people to support others by giving up their bodies/organs.

    Because the majority of this country does not believe that a 2 celled, newly conceived blacocyst is a person. Nor do they believe that a woman should be required to wreck her life to play slave to those two cells.

    There is no inherent right to life. The earliest place the Constitution confers rights is at birth. Nowhere is conception mentioned. If you believe your bible says otherwise, then more power to you. But this is America, and we don’t base laws on religious beliefs, so you’re going to need something more than “My God says so.”

    Also, here’s something you may want to think about: You’re crying about something that will NEVER happen to you. You will never be put in the situation where you have to make this choice. Maybe you should show some grace and decency and let us make this decision ourselves? You know, since we’re the ones whose lives will be affected.

  • Monala

    “The second is just so religious people can enjoy using their privileges to feel better about themselves and get vulnerable people to grovel at the feet of their social club.”

    Not true. I am not at all a supporter of Rick Warren’s. But I work in the nonprofit sector, and I can tell you that without churches, many nonprofits AND many government programs couldn’t do what they do. It goes back to Fred’s posts on subsidiarism (sp?) – different sectors compliment each other and are all necessary for a healthy community.

    Here are two very important things churches add to a healthy social safety net (besides whatever programs they may offer themselves): a lot of unused space during the week, and the ability to mobilize a lot of people to volunteer in some capacity.

    So the government-run Head Start program may take place in a church, because that’s the available space in a given community. The nonprofit tutoring program may rely on volunteer tutors from the local church. And so on.

    And believe it or not, there are a lot of churches (not all, of course) that know that when they’re engaged in this type of service, particularly in partnership with government or secular nonprofit agency, they cannot proselytize or discriminate. And they abide by those guidelines, because serving people is more important to them.

  • Lori

    Speaking of your straw liberals Jeff, as long as you’re here can we finish the last conversation you started about straw liberals? You remember, the one about how the only reason Liberals point out Right wing racism is because they’re mean and wrong? So, did you catch the coverage of this year’s CPAC?

  • Monala

    I’m going to bang this drum a lot, because many people here don’t seem to realize that a lot of people would be very hurt if churches weren’t involved in service. (The converse is also true: the “small gov’t” types don’t realize how many people would be hurt if government were not involved in service).

  • Baby_Raptor

    And the best part? If they’re right, when they die, their god just handwaves what they did away and they get to spend eternity in paradise. Yeah, bugger that. I’ll take hell with the rest of the people they chased away from their “loving” god…Better company at the very least.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop it. The legal mandates also supported by those “trying to stop it” have been shown to increase the rate of unintentional pregnancies, which is liable to make the rate of abortions continue to increase whether it’s legal or not.

    Quoting the Bible on the subject of abortion is generally a bad thing. The Bible (prior to partisan translations) not only minimized the harm implied in the death of the unborn, but also mandates abortion.

    Posts Fred has made on abortion which should make his position clear-

    ‘Baby-killers.’ It’s always ‘baby-killers.’
    Abortion politics and the corrosive sin of pride
    A very slightly less ‘fake’ argument from Mark Galli in Christianity Today
    Hey, remember when evangelicals were pro-choice because of the Bible? What a difference 30 years makes


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