Michele Bachmann, Rick Warren telling lies for Jesus that hurt poor women

“Let’s love people,” Rep. Michele Bachmann said, “let’s care about people.”

The Minnesota Republican said this, perversely, in support of the 39th attempt to repeal the Affordable Care Act. Igor Volsky of Think Progress provides a fuller context for Bachmann’s odd remarks:

While the main coverage expansion provisions will go into effect in 2014, the ACA has so far saved seniors over $6 billion on prescription drugs, reduced administrative overhead, deterred private insurers from requesting double digit premium increaseskept millions of young people on their parents’ health care plans, and provided 34.1 million people with Medicare preventive services without additional cost-sharing.

Moments after calling for the complete repeal of a law that will extend health care coverage to 30 million Americans, Bachmann claimed that her belief in Christ inspires her to care “for the least of those who are in our midst.”

Bachmann, in other words, is arguing that we should “love” seniors by transferring $6 billion from their pockets into the coffers of pharmaceutical companies and by denying 34.1 million of them access to preventive health care. She wants us to “love” working people by charging them higher premiums for health insurance. And she wants us to “love” millions of young adults by kicking them off of their parents insurance plans.

Can’t you just feel the love?

Bachmann went on to argue that increased access to affordable health insurance “literally kills women, kills children, kills senior citizens.”

But perhaps the weirdest moment in Bachmann’s speech — amidst the blasphemous misquotations of scripture and the whole-cloth fabrications of bogus statistics and “death panel” lies — was the moment when she asked, “Where are poor women supposed to go?” for health care.

I’m glad she’s at least asking that question, even if she’s not interested in finding out the answer. For tens of millions of poor women, that question will have a new answer once the Affordable Care Act is fully implemented, but for millions more the answer will remain the same as it has been for years now in America. Poor women will go to the one place poor women have always gone for affordable, reliable access to the health care that is otherwise denied them because they are poor and because they are women: They will go to Planned Parenthood.

This is not a secret. Planned Parenthood has more than 750 centers throughout the United States that serve more than three million people every year. One in five American women has gotten medical care from Planned Parenthood at some point in their lives.

And most of that has nothing to do with abortion. Abortion services account for only 3 percent of what Planned Parenthood does. But then it’s not really accurate to say that the other 97 percent of the care they provide has nothing to do with abortion — that care, from family planning to prenatal care to preventive and nutritional care for pregnant women and their children, means that Planned Parenthood does more to prevent abortion than any “pro-life” organization, maybe even more than all of them put together.

So how is it that someone like Michele Bachmann doesn’t know this?

She doesn’t know this because she doesn’t want to know this.

Neither does the Rev. Rick Warren, who recently tweeted this bit of pastoral malpractice:

Planned Parenthood is the McDonalds of abortion. It’s the #1 baby killing franchise.

No need to play “stupid or evil?” with that one. It’s both. The stupid and the evil are mutually reinforcing.

Warren is supposed to be the pastor to a congregation of 25,000 people. About half of his “flock” are women. Granted, Warren’s Saddleback church isn’t a working-class congregation, and many of its members are wealthy enough that they never have to worry about relying on any place with the word “clinic” in the title (unless it’s the Mayo Clinic). But it’s still a statistical certainty that the congregation of Saddleback Church includes hundreds of women who rely on Planned Parenthood for health care they cannot afford to get elsewhere. And that congregation likely includes thousands of women who have relied on it in the past.

But if punching down at the less-wealthy women in his congregation is the price of indulging in smug self-congratulation, that’s a price Rick Warren is happy to pay.

If telling himself that he’s a good person requires him to treat others badly, then he’ll enthusiastically play the role of anti-pastor to hundreds of members of his flock.

After all, what’s more important? To do good and be good? Or to reassure himself that he’s better than the Satanic baby-killers?

Warren, like Bachmann, chooses the latter every time. That’s evil. And it makes Warren stupid in that it causes him to be more ignorant than he otherwise would be or could be or should be. It guarantees that hundreds of women in his congregation who know things he does not know — things he ought to know and needs to know — will never share that knowledge with him. He’s made it clear he doesn’t want to hear it.

He’s made it clear that it would not be safe for them to tell him the truth they know. And thus it guarantees that he will never learn from them.

I’m sure that Warren’s first reaction to all of this would be to deny that any woman who attends Saddleback would ever go to Planned Parenthood and to assert that the women of his congregation surely all agree with his flippant dismissal and condemnation of that vital lifeline for poor women. After all, he likely thinks, no one has ever told him otherwise. And I doubt he can be made to understand why that is. I doubt he will ever realize how he has made it impossible for anyone to ever be honest with him, or to ever tell him anything he clearly doesn’t want to know.

That is not a good place to be. You have to take quite a few wrong turns to end up in the situation Rick Warren has created for himself — a situation in which being cruel to others boosts his self-esteem, a situation in which ignorantly condemning hundreds of people in his own congregation makes him feel like he’s being a better pastor.

“Where are poor women supposed to go” for pastoral care at Saddleback? Not to their pastor. He’s made it crystal clear that he’d rather shame them than listen to them. He’s made it abundantly clear that he isn’t interested in understanding them, in learning about their lives or learning from their lives. He’s made it clear that if they ask for bread he will give them a stone, if they ask for a fish he will give them a snake.

“Pastor” Warren offers them only condemnation — and not even because of anything they have actually done wrong, but only because condemning them is his preferred shorthand for praising himself and his own presumed righteousness.

Not good. Not smart. Not something any decent pastor should ever do.

The better way, the most excellent way, would be instead to love and care for people. And I’d say exactly that — I’d say, “Let’s love people, let’s care about people.” But thanks to folks like Michele Bachmann and Rick Warren, those words have become much harder to understand.

 

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  • hidden_urchin

    ” Love” here is like Christianity in the LB books. It’s not about actions but passionately and sincerely holding the right beliefs. That way, you can act like a horrible person and still feel good about yourself.

  • Edo

    “Love” here is just amor. An emotion. Purely internalized. A light you can hide under a bushel basket. (And the flip side of it is that “charity” is a purely externalized thing, and something bad to accept.)

    As long as that disconnect is there, God is absent, and Ubi caritas et amor is vain repetition.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Ever since my father read The Phantom Tollbooth to me as a child, he told me that there was nothing inherently wrong with ignorance, it simply means something you do not yet know. However, willful ignorance was always a Bad Thing.

    You know, I get the feeling that people like Rick Warren are trolls. Maybe not self-awarely so, but he is sure to get a lot of angry corrections for statements like that, or even angry condemnations for being an idiot. I think he and others like that actually get off on getting that kind of hate from people he does not care about, “Godless sodomites” who hate him for his righteousness and all that, gives him more of that smug satisfaction.

  • Carstonio

    The McDonald’s of abortion? That explains why the PP in my area has a drive-thru. The Dollar Menu is all condoms.

  • http://mordicai.livejournal.com Mordicai

    This comment just made me think of the hilarious cost/benefit analysis on a condom & then despair on account of buffoonish lying evil clowns like Bachmann & Warren.

  • Carstonio

    Bachmann didn’t do so well when confronted by a reporter recently. I would still love for someone to get into a righteous argument with either Bachmann or Warren until they end up stating outright that they’re slut-shaming.

  • ReverendRef

    But see, that’s the thing — It’s so much easier to give standard, pat, easy answers so people don’t have to think. It’s so much easier to tweet Planned Parenthood is the McDonalds of abortion. It’s the #1 baby killing franchise. than it is to actually do the research to find out what PP is all about or to learn about how many different ways they help women.

    It’s so much easier to loudly proclaim, “God hates fags,” after reading one verse in the Bible than it is to engage the text and your brain to see how that might not be the case.

    And let’s face it: pat, easy answers that whip up support against THOSE PEOPLE are what pay the bills.

    And here I need Don LaFontaine: In a world where securing large donations has become the benchmark of Christianity . . .”

  • Edo

    I’m not sure it’s so much “not having to think” as “not having to care.” It’s so much easier to say “I thank you, Lord, that I am not like other people” than to say “Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Why limit oneself to both? I’ve seen many people use a combination of the two in the form of “we’re all sinners, some of us more than others.” That lets them pretend to feel bad for affecting not to see the homeless veteran they pass by every day while patting themselves on the back for “not enabling his booze habits.”

    (Disqus seems to be screwing with formatting more than ever. I didn’t even copy and paste anything in that one.)

  • Edo

    It’s always “some of us,” isn’t it? And it always really means “some of you.” (The same way that “morals” is totally personalized, so that the vet’s immoral for his alcoholism but I’m not for corporate raiding that liquidates local society.)

  • Jeff

    Fred, you never let the facts get in the way of a good screed about those evil white evangelicals. While I carry no water for Warren or Saddleback, it took only an ounce of effort to read about the PEACE center: http://www.saddleback.com/aboutsaddleback/peacecenter/. Once more, with gusto: rejecting the /liberal solution/ to a problem is not tantamount to evil behavior.

  • EllieMurasaki

    What, then, is the conservative solution, and will it actually, y’know, solve the problem, or is it (like most conservative solutions) merely sweeping the problem under the rug and pretending that made the problem go away?

  • AnonaMiss

    From your link:

    To receive services, patients must provide: … proof of Orange County residency …

    Sure is helping a lot of poor people, that PEACE medical center.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Proof of residency and verification of income and proof of insurance… yes, all things your average poor person has, no problem. -_-

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Also, their AIDS/HIV support appears to be “if you have AIDS/HIV, we’ll tell you about your sinful lifestyle and offer to help you make it up to Christ for your shame!”

  • AnonaMiss

    To be fair, they did say they had sliding rates for people without insurance and added “(if applicable)”. So I assume they don’t actually require you to be insured.

    They do require you to have a home and be employed, though. And the home has to be in Orange County, which is famous as one of the wealthiest areas in the whole country. So good luck with that.

  • Amy

    Please take 10 seconds to google “Orange County Poverty” and one minute to read the top results before jumping to conclusions.

    Here’s place to start:http://www.capoc.org/awareness/
    227,820 or 44% of Orange County children received free and reduced lunch during the 2009/10 school year.
    An estimated 10.9% (nearly 83,000) of Orange County Children lacked health care coverage.
    30.4% of Orange County Households are unable to meet their basic needs, 90.9% of these households are working families.
    15.8% of all workers over the age of 16 earn below $25,000/year. 12.2% of individual residents in Orange County live below the federal poverty threshold.
    etc., etc., etc.

    I won’t try to defend Pastor Rick’s tweet because I think it was a stupid, thoughtless thing to say. But I will defend the church I’ve been a member of since 2001. The people of Saddleback have done more to help poor people, locally and globally, than any local church body in the history of the planet. We aren’t all rich. Many of us are working class. Many, like my husband, are praying every day to find a job, any job.

    We aren’t immune to or above criticism and neither are any church leaders including Rick Warren. But criticism is only constructive when based on reality, not on stereotypes. Passing judgment without any facts just makes you look more foolish than the people you’re criticizing.

  • John (not McCain)

    Your church is led by an anti-American scumbag who wants the government to force me to live according to his weirdo beliefs. Screw him and you.

  • P J Evans

    If you think that tweet was thoughtless and stupid, then make sure that he knows what you think, Be sure to include actual facts about PP, too, so he can’t claim he doesn’t know. (Abortion: less than three percent of what they do, and it’s *referring people to other places* that actually do provide them.)

  • AnonaMiss

    My point wasn’t that no poor people live there, but rather that we should expect housing prices to be very high, with a correspondingly high rate of homelessness among the local poor & working class.

    Since Saddleback’s PEACE Medical Center requires a proof of residence, it turns away the homeless; and since Orange County is so wealthy, it’s more likely that those in need of care will be homeless and therefore turned away.

    I didn’t at all mean to imply that everyone in Orange County is wealthy, though rereading my comment, I can see I didn’t express myself very well.

  • Ursula L

    No matter how many people Saddleback church may help with medical care, it isn’t anywhere near everyone who needs help with medical care. And it isn’t anywhere near as many people as Planned Parenthood helps, either.

    If the point of helping with medical care is to help with medical care, then Saddleback church should be cheering on Planned Parenthood, as they are very, very effective at helping with medical care, on a scale that Saddleback can’t hope to match.

    But helping a handful of people with medical care while simultaneously undermining an organization that helps many, many more people with medical care, still leaves you in the negative when it comes to total number of people helped with medical care. If you help a few thousand, but shut down a group helping hundreds of thousands, the world is a worse place than if you did nothing.

    So I’d rather you folks at Saddleback would shut your programs and shut up about Planned Parenthood than keep up with the net-destructive things you’re doing about medical care now.

  • pastorboy

    http://www.180movie.com Is the best movie to answer this question

  • Ursula L

    You need to make your own arguments, here, not expect this many people to all waste hours of their time watching a movie so that you don’t have to show your work.

  • AnonaMiss

    It’s doubly stupid because it doesn’t even address your question

  • http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

    I’d love to give them the benefit of the doubt that they were just naive do-gooders who never considered that ORANGE FRIGGIN’ COUNTY might not be the best place to put their food bank/free clinic/poor and homeless outreach.

    In the spirit of the Prosperity Gospel, I’d like to wish them luck in their upcoming financial ventures. Given their unbelievably savvy knowledge of demographics, I expect they’ll be opening a Lamborghini dealership in South Central.

  • Carstonio

    Forcing women to carry pregnancies to term? Shaming women who don’t want to become mothers? Demonizing programs and organizations that provide health care for poor women? Sounds like evil behavior to me.

    Folks like Warren treat abortion the same way they treat situations where children are being raised without fathers, blaming both on women. There are all sorts of reasons for the latter, yet the Warrens focus only on the situations where women plan to raise children without fathers (the Murphy Browns and the lesbian couples). As Fred has said many times, they give the very strong impression that they’re out not to stop abortions but to control women.

  • pastorboy
  • The_L1985

    Yes, we’ve all seen the link. You post that link every other comment you make. We know that that execrable film exists, already.

  • http://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/ Enopoletus Harding

    Yawn. One big Godwin.

  • SisterCoyote

    I count ten locations of the PEACE center, and if I’m not much mistaken, all of them are on the west coast. Furthermore, I’m highly suspect of any such outreach group – are atheist women welcome there? Jewish women? Catholic women? Lesbian women? There’s a lot of information there about what they believe, and not a whole lot about what they DO.

    Planned Parenthood is all over the country, helps women without preaching to them or converting them or shaming them for their actions, beliefs, or lifestyles, and is unlikely to turn someone away because they show up with a partner of the same sex. This is really, really not even close to what Planned Parenthood accomplishes. But nice try.

  • Jeff

    Sister, the point is simply that Fred’s piece scurrilously alleges that by condemning PP, Warren is implicitly denying members of his congregration access to health care that they need, thereby rejecting his obligation as a Christian and a pastor to care for the poor and cementing his status as an evil person. The problem for Fred’s narrative is that Warren IS caring for the poor, just not in the way Fred wants him to. That’s not evil, it’s just a different way of doing things.
    The mention of the PEACE center in this context is exclusively with respect to what it says about Warren’s character vis a vis Fred’s allegations. It’s not to say that the PEACE center is a large-scale alternative to PP, although I do think such centers are a good example of programs that churches should support. A similar center exists in my area, and our church supports it (as do many other churches), and it provides medical care to a lot of people, and is perceived as a good resource by pretty much everyone in the community.

  • SisterCoyote

    I suppose I see your point – that Rick Warren is providing health care to the women of his congregation, with his PEACE centers. The problem is, you can see the multiple issues with the PEACE center. They don’t really help poor women, or homeless women, or women without income – and while he offers this, he attacks and slanders the people who actually are helping poor and homeless women – he bears false witness against them.

    Just one example, off the top of my head – Planned Parenthood provides pap smears; without it, many women would be unable to get them, and risk dying of cervical cancer. I know at least one person who would almost certainly be dead without their help, and her son without a mother. Yet Rick Warren calls it “The McDonald’s of abortions,” ignoring the multitude of absolutely necessary services it provides to poor women, women who cannot afford the health care his PEACE center offers. That’s bearing false witness, and it’s wrong, and it’s harmful, directly harmful, to the women who rely on it.

  • smrnda

    Let’s say there are two ways of helping people. We can collect taxes and provide social services, or we can leave it up to churches and other agencies. I’d say the first is good, because people can get help if they need it with no strings attached and without there existing a possibility that someone will turn ‘giving help’ into a recruitment tool for their religion. The second is just so religious people can enjoy using their privileges to feel better about themselves and get vulnerable people to grovel at the feet of their social club.

    There are poor people who do not want help if it’s coming from a religious source. I am very grateful that, when I needed assistance on disability, that the secular welfare state was there for me. To me, the ‘let’s leave this up to churches’ is just as much a ‘my way or the highway’ approach as the idea that only the government option is good. I think it is a bad approach, because a lot of needy people would prefer help without the recruitment or ‘personal touch’ offered by religious agencies. When religious agencies oppose government solution, it’s just that they want to enjoy the power they have over vulnerable people.

    They would hate to know that I just got money from the government when I couldn’t work. They wanted to take a *personal interest* in me and offer help on their terms, rather than mine.

  • Monala

    “The second is just so religious people can enjoy using their privileges to feel better about themselves and get vulnerable people to grovel at the feet of their social club.”

    Not true. I am not at all a supporter of Rick Warren’s. But I work in the nonprofit sector, and I can tell you that without churches, many nonprofits AND many government programs couldn’t do what they do. It goes back to Fred’s posts on subsidiarism (sp?) – different sectors compliment each other and are all necessary for a healthy community.

    Here are two very important things churches add to a healthy social safety net (besides whatever programs they may offer themselves): a lot of unused space during the week, and the ability to mobilize a lot of people to volunteer in some capacity.

    So the government-run Head Start program may take place in a church, because that’s the available space in a given community. The nonprofit tutoring program may rely on volunteer tutors from the local church. And so on.

    And believe it or not, there are a lot of churches (not all, of course) that know that when they’re engaged in this type of service, particularly in partnership with government or secular nonprofit agency, they cannot proselytize or discriminate. And they abide by those guidelines, because serving people is more important to them.

  • Monala

    I’m going to bang this drum a lot, because many people here don’t seem to realize that a lot of people would be very hurt if churches weren’t involved in service. (The converse is also true: the “small gov’t” types don’t realize how many people would be hurt if government were not involved in service).

  • The_L1985

    This. The question should never be about whether religious organizations or the government should be helping the poor. Both should be helping the poor. We need both.

  • smrnda

    Sorry to have said ‘all.’ I should have known better because I can already think up counter-examples. I myself volunteer at some private charities which (I hope) are extending help without strings attached. I had just recently learned that several agencies in my community were offering ‘assistance’ with a lot of strings attached and it’s put me in a bad mood all weekend.

    I accept the correction and counterpoint, and agree that this shouldn’t be an either/or type proposition. I just get very wary of the ‘all private charity’ approach.

  • Guest

    I think smrnda’s point was that there are

    people & religious institutions who argue that the government should stay out of charity

    and THOSE are the people/institutions who seem more interested in maintaining their power over vulnerable people than in relieving suffering.

    People who really care about relieving suffering want those in need to receive help from as many sources as possible, government, private, etc. And people who really care are found everywhere in charity work.

  • http://mordicai.livejournal.com Mordicai

    “We have our own charity so it is okay to actively oppose other people’s charities” is not like, a superior ethical stance.

  • Jeff

    Come on Mordicai, think. Why do you suppose Warren opposes PP?
    The answer should be obvious: because PP provides abortion services, and Warren opposes abortion. It’s not a matter of which charity is better, it’s that one does something that Warren finds morally reprehensible, so he speaks out against it.
    Ah, Fred says, but PP does other stuff, and (assumption) people in Warren’s church need that other stuff, so by opposing PP, Warren is obstructing people from getting the other services that they need, and obstructing people from getting services they need is evil, therefore, Warren is evil.
    Fred’s argument isn’t actually about whether people are getting the services they need; that’s just a prop he’s using to condemn Warren. And the way we know that is because Warren’s church actually DOES provide health services to the disadvantaged. But of course Fred doesn’t mention that.

  • http://mordicai.livejournal.com Mordicai

    Honestly, I’m far more concerned abotu Michele Bachmann, who is an elected official. Warren using religion & money to justify & advance his ideology is hardly surprising. Bachmann is a secular elected official working hard to deny people of legal medical services. Far more reprehensible.

    Also, trying to reduce Planned Parenthood to abortion services is about as silly as trying to reduce any hospital that provides abortions to that medical procedure. Which is to say, silly. & just like I find it wicked that a Scientologist might try to prevent people from seeking mental health treatment or a Jehovah’s Witness might want to prevent others from access to blood transfusions, I find Warren’s actions equally objectionable.

  • Lori

    Come on Jeff, think. The issue is not about whether Warren provides (limited) health services (on its own terms, to women who meet the church’s definition of deserving). It’s about the fact that Warren lies and why he lies and the effect of his lies.

    I know that Fred’s use of the word “white” triggers your protective instincts, but you really need to try to focus on the actual subject here.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Warren’s church possibly doing good things for some local women in no way, shape, or form effects the evil Warren is doing. You’re looking for ways to excuse the man because you agree with him. Please stop this. It’s not only wrong, but you’re making yourself complicit in the damage he’s doing.

    Further, Fred is an evangelical. I don’t know if he’s white, but he’s certainly not racist. So you’re just picking on him for things you’re reading into his posts, which probably means you’re projecting.

    Lastly, Conservatives don’t have a solution to the abortion “problem.” (Sarcastic airquotes, because I don’t really think abortion is a problem. But I say that as someone whose life was saved by one…Something you’ll NEVER have happen to you.) The conservatives who talk about abortion are all pro-forced birthers who talk about making abortion illegal, teaching abstinence and getting rid of birth control. Everything they do is designed to make the number of abortions *skyrocket,* even if they do make abortion impossible to get legally.

    So, yes. In this particular case, disagreeing with the liberal position IS evil behavior. When they manage to come up with an answer to the problem that *doesn’t* turn women into slaves, cost women their lives, and actually diminish the need for abortion, it won’t be. Til then, they can Fuck right off to wherever evil people go when they die, if such a place even exists.

  • Lori

    Speaking of your straw liberals Jeff, as long as you’re here can we finish the last conversation you started about straw liberals? You remember, the one about how the only reason Liberals point out Right wing racism is because they’re mean and wrong? So, did you catch the coverage of this year’s CPAC?

  • http://twitter.com/Jenk3 Jen K

    And this makes the lying OK?

  • Jeff

    But you’re right about the inapt McDonald’s comparison. After all, McDonald’s has a 46% share of the burger market, whereas PP performs only a piddly 27% of the nation’s abortions.

  • John (not McCain)

    So? You got some kind of problem with a woman having control of her own body? Why not move to Iran – they think and act a lot like you do over there.

  • http://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/ Enopoletus Harding

    Let us not smear our opponents with broad brushstrokes.

  • pastorboy

    Well, I would, except they believe in the murder of women who do not dress according to their standards, as well as honor killing…so that is not very pro life. Repent and believe in the Gospel.

  • https://pjevansgen.wordpress.com/ P J Evans

    We have people in the US who would be just fine with doing those things. We have people who have called for killing anyone who doesn’t agree with their own very narrow-minded view of the world. Most of them are people who proclaim their Christianity very loudly.

  • pastorboy

    Just because I proclaim in and out burger very loudly does not mean I work there. Even if I lived there, it would not make me a hamburger. People who proclaim Christianity loudly (like the ‘progressive christians’ here) and who live in opposition to the scripture are not Christians. Simple as that.

  • The_L1985

    And that is a textbook example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

    Also, while Fred is a Christian, and Dierd and a few of the other commenters are Christian, a lot of us aren’t. I’m not. Ellie’s not. Sam’s not. And I’m sure I’ve left out a lot of others.

  • EllieMurasaki

    People who proclaim Christianity loudly (like the ‘progressive christians’ here) and who live in opposition to the scripture are not Christians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_healing_the_bleeding_woman –Jesus healed at least one woman with what is most likely a gynecological problem. Why are you insisting on denying gynecological care to women in need?

  • https://pjevansgen.wordpress.com/ P J Evans

    You seem to have missed all the teachings of Jesus. ‘Do to others as you would have them do to you.’

  • P J Evans

    Because what they do is refer women to clinics that actually provide them, in the states that still have those clinics.
    Abortion is THREE FUCKING PERCENT of what PP does. Warren is a lying hypocrite.

  • Jeff

    PJ, the 3% number comes from PP itself, and its counting is highly dubious — performing a single STD test or handing out a single condom is counted as a “service” for the purposes of the calculation. To get closer to the reality, you have to look at the money. PP says it performs about 330k abortions per year. How much does an abortion cost, maybe $300? So that’s about $100M in revenue from abortion services each year. PP’s total revenues in 2011 were about $1B, and its total non-overhead non-fundraising outlays were about $740M. So abortion is between 10% and 13.5% of PP’s business, depending on whether you’re looking at revenues or outlays. That’s not 90% as some have claimed, but it’s significantly more than the 3% that PP claims.

  • AnonaMiss

    You… you do realize that Planned Parenthood often doesn’t charge lower-income patients for services, right? And that a large proportion of its patients are lower-income?

    If you’re trying to argue that Planned Parenthood is In The Abortion Business For The Money, you’re going to have a bad time.

  • P J Evans

    Where are YOUR numbers coming from? Because that 330K abortions per year sounds way the heck high.
    (I’d rather trust PP’s numbers than any numbers a conservative is claiming for them.)

  • P J Evans

    Found a source YOU might consider reliable (linefeeds added):

    In 2009, Planned Parenthood provided
    4,009,549 contraceptive services (35% of total),

    3,955,926 sexually transmitted disease services (35% of total),

    1,830,811 cancer related services (16% of total),

    1,178,369 pregnancy/prenatal/midlife services (10% of total),
    332,278 abortion services (3% of total), and

    76,977 other services (1% of total),

    for a total of 11,383,900 services.[8][36][38][39][40][41]
    The organization also said its doctors and nurses annually conduct 1
    million screenings for cervical cancer and 830,000 breast exams.

    So abortion IS in fact 3 percent of what they do.

  • Cathy W

    I find the budget argument misleading – if you look at dollar signs, you overlook women. 97% of the people going to Planned Parenthood are not there for abortions – yes, presumably, some of them wanted a single STD test or a handful of condoms.
    Some of them might have had their lives saved by that single STD test. Some of them could not have afforded to get that test from any other provider.
    Some of them are not going to need an abortion because they were able to pick up that handful of condoms, or get a Depo shot, or have an IUD put them in place that will protect them from pregnancy for years. Some of them could not have gotten those services any other way.
    So, yeah, I think it’s entirely fair to say that abortion consitutes 3% of the service provided by Planned Parenthood – because only 3% of their clients want one.

  • P J Evans

    I was going out with a guy who got a vasectomy at PP. I remember it quite well, because he had it done on the way to a computer-group meeting; I was the backup driver for the occasion.

  • Cathy W

    Yeah – while Planned Parenthood primarily serves women, we also shouldn’t overlook that a lot of the people there for “one STD test” or “a handful of condoms” are men!

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    Never mind the fact that abortion, being a more extensive procedure than Depo and testing, is of course going to be more expensive, as it’s a procedure that costs more resources to provide. So of course, while it may constitute a smaller percentage of procedures performed, it is going to contribute a larger part of revenue. Which is exactly as it should be.

  • Ursula L

    I find the budget argument misleading – if you look at dollar signs, you overlook women.

    You overlook men, as well, who can go to Planned Parenthood for STD testing and treatment, education on safe sex and family planning, condoms, and men can also support the women in their lives by accompanying them to appointments if she desires, learning correct use of contraceptive methods so that contraception is a cooperative activity (e.g., knowing how to help position a diaphragm) etc.

  • The_L1985

    And Planned Parenthood doesn’t get a single penny of that money from the people actually getting the abortions, condoms, pregnancy tests, or STD exams. They get all of their funding from the government and from individual donations. Since the Hayes Amendment makes it illegal for federal funds to go toward abortions, I can say with confidence that 100% of the money that covered PP’s abortions came from private donors, NOT from the government, and NOT from patients.

  • Andrea

    Um, I go to the local PP for well-woman visits and used to get my birth control there, and I have a stack of receipts showing that those services were paid for by me. The condoms at the counter weren’t free; they were being paid for by the individual patients who wanted them. I’m not sure where this idea comes from that Planned Parenthood doesn’t receive any money for services from the actual patients.

  • Ursula L

    I suspect it depends on your income and the policies of the specific branch or region.

    In my area, Planned Parenthood will accept health insurance, if you have it, and it charges on a sliding scale based on income and family size if you don’t.

    Condoms at the counter are free, however it isn’t like a store where you can choose between brands, and package sizes. It’s just a basket full of condoms packaged with the PP logo, and people can help themselves.

  • Termudgeon

    Nitpick: Hyde Amendment

  • The_L1985

    Thanks. Fixed!

  • Ursula L

    Why shouldn’t providing condoms and STD testing be counted as services? These are just as life-saving as an abortion is when you need one.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    performing a single STD test or handing out a single condom is counted as a “service” for the purposes of the calculation.

    One customer comes in, asks for a service, they provide it, the customer leaves. How would you count it? STD tests don’t come in six-packs.

  • Simongren

    So?

  • Ursula L

    Because what they do is refer women to clinics that actually provide them, in the states that still have those clinics.

    It depends on where you are.

    Where I am, all of the local PP clinics provide medical (pill) abortion care, but only one does surgical (D&C) abortions. At least according to their web page the last time I checked it (a few months back.)

    I suppose that PP and others interested in providing comprehensive gynecological care organize according to what is practical wherever they are.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I hate all this lying. I hate the hatred, the faux-pity they pretend to have for people while sneering beneath a veneer of politeness because it’s just not politic to condemn the masses. Not where the masses can hear, at least.

    Mostly sick that people like this live lives of outrageous luxury wherein their only pains are self-inflicted fear and loathing of the Other while the thought of where I might be this time next year is horrifying. I’m visiting family in Michigan next month and trying hard not to imagine that this is a trial run for a permanent living arrangement.

  • Baby_Raptor

    And the best part? If they’re right, when they die, their god just handwaves what they did away and they get to spend eternity in paradise. Yeah, bugger that. I’ll take hell with the rest of the people they chased away from their “loving” god…Better company at the very least.

  • Edo
  • Lori

    I’m so sorry that things are so hard. You know I understand about the fear of moving back in with your family. If you need to talk, say so and we’ll figure out a way to connect through email or something.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I deeply appreciate your offer. The e-mail and Yahoo Messenger information linked to this account’s profile is set up with Slacktivist in mind if that should ever become necessary. At the moment, I’m trying to make it at least a relatively pleasant experience by getting in touch with old friends (and, heck, anyone else I’ve met since then who doesn’t mind a visit to the Saginaw area).

    Just… trying not to think too much about the clock ticking down. Everything decent feels very finite right now.

  • smrnda

    On ‘rejecting the liberal solution’ – if you’re going to reject a proposed solution, you are obliged to at least state what that solution *is* accurately and explain why its proposed courses of action will either not work or not work well. Very very few critics of the Affordable Care Act bother to do anything aside from spout about how it will *cause more harm than good* without proving any evidence they even know a thing about the act and what it entails. Bachmann clearly has no interest in researching facts, she’s made a career spouting simplistic slogans that energize a base that dislikes thinking. It’s a ‘liberal solution’ and therefore is bad, and the basic conservative talking point is that any ‘liberal solution’ will cause the downfall of civilization, no evidence required. You get this with the anti-gay marriage crowd who, in spite of evidence that gay marriage has been legalized and the sky hasn’t fallen in many places, maintain that as their strongest point.

    I truly believe that many of these people are stupid enough to believe they really know what’s going on. It’s what happens when you live in a bubble where everybody already *knows* what’s true and further research or evidence isn’t required.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=9700052 Joseph Parmalee
  • P J Evans

    Not paying her campaign workers, demanding that they sign non-disclosure statements before paying them (and that’s non-disclosure of*illegal activities*), alleged theft of at least one mailing list…

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=9700052 Joseph Parmalee

    Can’t you just feel the love?

  • pastorboy

    I am just dying to have the author answer the question: When is murder okay? Do all females deserve the protection of our legal and health care system? Then we can determine whether or not this is a hypocritical offering or genuine concern for all females- including those who are in the womb.

  • P J Evans

    There are plenty of posts that make it clear. Go, read.

  • pastorboy

    I did; didn’t see any response from the author. Face it; the author approves of the murder of babies, which, by the way, the number of abortions performed is nearly 3-1 minority to white. This was Sanger’s plan from the get go. And you demonize those trying to stop it. Good one- woe to you who call evil good and good evil.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop it. The legal mandates also supported by those “trying to stop it” have been shown to increase the rate of unintentional pregnancies, which is liable to make the rate of abortions continue to increase whether it’s legal or not.

    Quoting the Bible on the subject of abortion is generally a bad thing. The Bible (prior to partisan translations) not only minimized the harm implied in the death of the unborn, but also mandates abortion.

    Posts Fred has made on abortion which should make his position clear-

    ‘Baby-killers.’ It’s always ‘baby-killers.’
    Abortion politics and the corrosive sin of pride
    A very slightly less ‘fake’ argument from Mark Galli in Christianity Today
    Hey, remember when evangelicals were pro-choice because of the Bible? What a difference 30 years makes

  • John (not McCain)

    Face it – you don’t have a clue what the word “baby” means. You probably have problems with lots of other words, too.

  • http://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/ Enopoletus Harding

    What is “murder”?

  • The_L1985

    Murder, by definition, is a crime in which a person is killed. If the act is not illegal, then it is killing, but by definition, it is not murder.

    Abortion is killing. Abortion is also legal. Therefore, abortion is technically not murder.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You are wrong*.

    But even if you were right, why should we accept the moral judgement of someone like you? Face it: you approve of the forced enslavement of women. You approve of forcing an innocent woman to sacrifice her physical health and use her own body against her will to sustain the life of another human being.

    The reason you’re so invested in this whole “Abortion is the murder of babies!” thing is because murdering babies is just about the only thing that might be more evil than the forced torture and enslavement of women that you advocate.

    (* And anyway, you don’t believe abortion is murder. You know how I can tell? Because you aren’t calling for the imprisonment of women who contract murder on babies. And because you live in a country where, according to you, the mass murder of babies is institutionalized and legal, and yet you haven’t bombed any abortion clinics. If you really believed abortion was murder, but you didn’t feel compelled to take extreme violent action to stop it, you’d be a total sociopath.)

  • pastorboy

    The only one innocent in an abortion situation is the baby. The woman (except in case of rape) CHOOSES to have sexual intercourse. Even in the case of Rape, it is not the baby’s fault. Carry it and give it up for adoption. Don’t murder the other innocent victim. And I am for the imprisonment of women, doctors, and the fathers for all abortions. I am a part of the Abortion Abolition movement, I believe all those involved in the murder of a baby should be jailed. Since I am pro-life, the murder of doctors, nurses,and others by bombing a clinic would be hypocritical.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Consent to getting pregnant is not consent to staying pregnant. And lots of self-identified pro-life people oppose abortion in cases of rape.

  • Ursula L

    Are you saying that my grandmother wasn’t an innocent victim when forced to carry the pregnancy that killed her? That the people who denied her medical care that they knew would save her life didn’t kill her?

    If you’re pro life, what about my grandmother’s life?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    I’m guessing “Can’t make an omelet without murdering a few women breaking a few eggs.”

    Or possibly “Hey, you’ve got to have moral values.”

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Wait, so sexual intercourse is some kind of crime for which forced pregnancy is an acceptable punishment?

    Being forced to give birth is the punishment for having sexual intercourse?

    FORCED BIRTH is the PUNISHMENT?

    These “innocent babies” are the FITTING PUNISHMENT for a woman who “chooses” to have intercourse?

    Choosing to have sexual intercourse is a crime for which the punishment is childbirth.

    As a father, I am disgusted by the implication that pregnancy and childbirth should be a punishment. As a father I am mortified that someone would wish to turn one of the most miraculous experiences in life into a form of torture used to punish women for having sexual intercourse with men.

    FACE IT: One of us in this conversation thinks that it’s very bad for a woman to be pregnant against her will, and the other one thinks that it is a fitting punishment for choosing to have sexual intercourse. You do not have the moral high ground here.

  • The_L1985

    And what about all of the married women who have abortions? Since the 2008 crash, 72% of women who had abortions had already given birth, and were loving mothers to, other children. I’m pretty sure a large number of those women were also married.

    The reason cited as the reason they had an abortion was because they could not get a well-enough-paying job to support both the children they already had, and the one on the way. So to prevent their other children from starving, they made a sacrifice. A sacrifice that you don’t seem to understand.

  • pastorboy

    They can choose not to have sex, or there are medical procedures like vascetomies that take care of that issue. It comes down to personal responsibility, and a callous disregard for life and for God. http://www.180movie.com

  • The_L1985

    So married people who can’t afford vasectomies or babies should just not have sex with their own spouses? Are you really going to argue that married couples who are poor should be denied one of the main “perks” of marriage altogether?

  • The_L1985

    Fuck you. I am a human being, not a punishment for my mother daring to have sex with her husband. Any children I have will also be human beings, not “punishments.”

  • Fanraeth

    I don’t know if you’ve capable of comprehending this, but the reason why more minorities have abortions than white people is because white people as a whole have more money, more privileges, and more opportunities than minorities. But by all means, continue inventing absurd conspiracy theories about Planned Parenthood contriving to get minority women to voluntarily eradicate their race.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Well, there is such a thing, just not in the form of Planned Parenthood. There’s a variant of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement that combines their “everyone should let themselves die” approach with white supremecy, politely requesting that all the nasty minorities please go ahead and let themselves go extinct so the superior race doesn’t have to do it for them.

  • Fanraeth

    I wish I could be surprised by this. The internet has killed my ability to be shocked, I’m afraid.

  • Carstonio

    That conspiracy theory has never made sense. It presumes that PP’s staffers have almost supernatural marketing abilities over minority women. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the folks peddling the conspiracy believe in the racist myths about welfare, claiming that PP threatens to get the government to withhold benefits if the women don’t agree to abortions.

  • pastorboy

    The movie that addresses all of these lies http://www.180movie.com

  • EllieMurasaki

    So you’ve run out of your own arguments?

  • The_L1985

    Wow, broken record. I’ve seen that movie. I’ve read the appalling Margaret Sanger: Father of Modern Society by Elasah Drogin. I’ve seen pictures of the results of every kind of abortion that’s ever been performed legally, most of which haven’t been performed since the 1970’s because it was discovered that they were dangerous.* I know every single sentence of your rhetoric, and I have come to the conclusion, based on facts that I have learned, that your conclusion is wrong.

    * Saline, prostaglandin, and D&C are generally not performed anymore. D&X has been banned in the US. Pretending that any of these are current methods of abortion in order to scare people out of it is lying.

  • AnonaMiss

    Margaret Sanger: Father of Modern Society

    What, seriously?

  • The_L1985

    Seriously. Complete with a Planned Parenthood waiting room that featured a framed photo of Sanger (with imagery from Nazi propaganda posters in the background of the photo) and a checklist on the desk that said: “Plans: Abortion (check) Abortion (check) Abortion (check)”

  • AnonaMiss

    Oh I believe all that. The part I have a hard time with is that they called her the father of modern society. What, was mother of modern society a bit too on-the-nose?

  • Carstonio

    I assumed that the “father” reference was simply sexist demagoguery, accusing all feminist of being butch lesbians who hate marriage and motherhood.

  • The_L1985

    Yes, pretty much. Only cranked up to 11.

  • The_L1985

    It was yet another jab at her not being a normal woman and not having maternal instincts. Jabs like that were on almost every page.

  • JustoneK

    Tell me when you think it’s okay to let a mother die instead of getting an abortion and leaving her OTHER CHILDREN BEHIND first. This does happen. Continues to happen. Pregnancy’s gone ectopic, fetus is dead (and in one case is slated to be born without a brain entirely), mother has other children and a job and a family that already love her, but dies on the table instead of an abortion or removal of a dead fetus. Ass.

    Fred’s pretty clear on his point.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I suspect Fred would say, were he one to respond directly to comments, that the justification lies between God and the person getting an abortion and is not owed to the people who would shame them.

    Then you would be asked (by the armchair commentariat if not by Fred) when it is appropriate for the concern for someone in the womb to override concern for the person who owns that womb, and to what extent is it justifiable to sacrifice someone’s health, even life, to satisfy an unwanted stranger’s intrusion. Would I be justified in compelling you against your will to provide your blood or organs to treat my illness?

  • pastorboy

    Sam, The DNA of the baby is unique. Abortion and Planned Parenthood from their genesis is ultimately racist; the goal was to murder the babies of minorities and immigrants. I wonder how that would fly if we were to pull back the whitewashed veil and call it what it is- eugenics- same stuff Hitler tried in Nazi Germany.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Except eugenics was mandated sterilization and murder, whereas this is committed voluntarily. All due thanks for godwinning the thread, but what precisely do you think will happen if abortion is banned and miraculously all the abortion clinics aren’t just driven underground to continue a necessary trade? What happens to the people who are now bringing thousands of unwanted children into the world, and what becomes of those children, and is it really a superior outcome?

  • AnonaMiss

    If it were eugenics, Planned Parenthood would not only be trying to kill babies of undesirable races, but would refuse to provide abortions for people of the preferred race.

    Of course you’ve been skittering and sliding around enough in this comment thread that I already know you’re not arguing in good faith, but I just thought of this debunking and I haven’t seen it used before.

  • Darkrose

    False. The quote usually used to bolster this argument is from a letter where Sanger said “We don’t want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population….” Usually the rest of the sentence that says “….and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members” gets left out. She wanted a well-known black pastor to help make it clear that they were not trying to target black people.

  • http://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/ Enopoletus Harding

    Serious [citation needed]. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And don’t look back to the 1920s, either-back then the U.S. government was manned by fiscal conservatives, smoking wasn’t considered unhealthy by most doctors, and government-supported school segregation was still around. The 1920s were very different from today.

  • Ursula L

    Hitler’s eugenics program included banning abortion, for women who were considered the “right” sort of people.

    Eugenics is about forcing people to breed according to an agenda, which can included both forcing people to have children when they don’t want children and with people whom they don’t want to have children with, as well as preventing people from having wanted children. It is treating people like breeding stock animals rather than people.

    The opposite of eugenics isn’t forcing women to carry pregnancies against their will. The opposite of eugenics is respecting the choice of women.

  • The_L1985

    It is true that Margaret Sanger was every bit as racist as the average American of her time. However, just because she was racist, doesn’t make the entire organization that she founded racist.

    Thomas Jefferson was also racist; he didn’t believe black people were as intelligent as white people; he owned slaves; and he probably fathered children through rape of his female slaves. That racism doesn’t make the Louisiana Purchase or the Declaration of Independence bad things.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Thomas Jefferson was also racist; […] he probably fathered children through rape of his female slaves

    What is this ‘probably’? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings#Descendants

  • The_L1985

    Wikipedia aside, that story hasn’t been conclusively proven either way, so I said “probably.”

  • EllieMurasaki

    I thought the historian consensus was that he did, since the Y chromosome from a Y-chromosome-line descendant of one of the Hemings sons matches that of a known Y-chromosome-line descendant of Jefferson.

  • The_L1985

    Ah. I hadn’t heard that, and thought it was still under dispute.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Technically, all that proves is the lines crossing at some point, not that Jefferson impregnated Hemmings. For all we know, Jefferson’s grandfather raped Hemmings’s grandmother. (It occurs to me that after a few generations in slaveholding families, you probably ended up with slaveowners raping their own siblings/cousins/children fairly often)

  • http://www.oliviareviews.com/ PepperjackCandy

    This is not a possibility. For one thing the descendant of Eston Hemings has the same Y chromosome as Thomas Jefferson’s uncle Field. Sally Hemings did not have a Y chromosome at all, since she was female. The chromosome would have to have come from Eston’s father. So unless Thomas’s grandmother had been fooling around, Thomas’s Y chromosome should match Eston’s as well.

    Additionally, there is no way that the matching DNA other than the Y-chromosome could have derived from a rape from a previous generation. Sally Hemings’s grandmother didn’t belong to the Jeffersons. Sally’s grandmother, Susanna, probably came from Africa and was most likely owned by Martha Jefferson’s mother’s family, the Eppeses.

    Sally’s mother, Elizabeth, was most likely the daughter of John Hemings, a white man. Sally (n.b. — I’m using the name “Sally” here to reduce confusion since I am referencing four Hemingses in this comment) herself was fathered by John Wayles, who was also the father of Thomas’s late wife, Martha.

    Elizabeth did not go to Monticello until Sally was around three years old. Therefore, Sally Hemings cannot share a common ancestor with Thomas Jefferson.

  • Termudgeon

    This. Henry Ford was a Nazi sympathizer. Is the Ford Motor Company therefore a fascist organization?

  • StevenAppelget

    Godwin. We’re done here.

  • Baby_Raptor

    I’m not sure how your bringing this up even applies to the question asked you, but I have several comments anyway.

    What, exactly, does DNA have to do with anything? Are you trying to claim that everything with a unique genetic code is a life? If so, you’re going to need to start advocating for rights for dead bodies, dead skin cells, strands of hair…You get my idea. They all have a unique DNA code as well.

    As to the rest of your post, I can’t tell if you’re projecting or if you’re just stupid. Not only is that invoking a long-disproved strawman, you’re saying that the Supreme Court made abortion legal for the sole purpose of genocide. And you’re projecting all that racism and hatred onto every single woman who just needs medical care, and all the people involved in providing that care.

    Even if you buy into the strawman you’re presenting, your statement doesn’t stand. Nobody is running around forcing abortions on minorities or immigrants. Women are deciding for themselves that they don’t want to be pregnant. I can’t even fathom how you’re making this connection.

    And it wouldn’t fly, because the only people who claim that women choosing to avail themselves of a medical procedure is somehow other people forcing eugenics on everyone are the people trying to strip women of that right. Everyone else has the basic sense to see how dumb that claim is.

    You must really get off on this stuff…Does your “Look at what a righteous hero I am!” fantasy include an amazing uniform and lots of people worshiping you?

  • pastorboy

    I just want all humans to have rights, including those who are still in the womb. ALL. I think any of you who support abortion and call yourself Christian should repent.

  • Ursula L

    Do you repent condemning women to death by withholding medical care that could save their lives?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Do you include ‘people who have wombs’ as human?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Except women, of course. Women don’t have the right to exclusive control over their own bodies.

    Or is it just that you don’t think women are human?

  • Ursula L

    And do those rights include using someone else’s body part against their will to preserve your own life or improve your health?

    Because I know people who could use one of your kidneys, and a section of your liver, and a pint of blood every couple months. And by your arguments, they shouldn’t have to ask your permission to take what they need.

  • The_L1985

    As for the DNA argument: Cancer is caused by genetic mutations. (We’re still not sure how to stop or prevent these mutations, or we’d have a cure for cancer already.) Thus, cancer cells have unique DNA that is different from that of the person who has the cancerous growth.

    Does that make cancer a new person? If not, explain why that is different from the not-yet-aware-but-human-shaped life form that survives through a parasitic relationship with its mother while it’s in utero. Because that’s what a fetus is. Most mothers consider it worthwhile to essentially harbor a human parasite for 9 months, then forcefully and painfully expel it through an organ that’s usually much smaller than the baby’s head, in order to have the experience of raising a child. However, not all women want to be mothers, some women know that they shouldn’t be mothers, and some women have medical conditions that will kill them if they become pregnant.

  • https://pjevansgen.wordpress.com/ P J Evans

    EVERYONE has unique DNA, except, possibly identical multiples.
    Try an argument that isn’t ridiculous on its face – and take a real biology class, not one that’s Bible-based.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    For that matter, what about chimera? Is Lydia Fairchild’s sister alive and well? (And if so, is she guilty of kidnapping?)

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    Or cannibalism…

  • AnonaMiss

    Dear Pastorboy,

    Do all people deserve the protection of our legal and health care system, including those who are still in the form of two separate gametes? Sperm and eggs have human DNA! They’re living human cells!

    Protect life: outlaw ejaculation except at sperm banks, where every sperm can be saved.

  • pastorboy

    Yes, when they come together to form a human being then yes. The Bible is the sole arbiter of right and wrong. The Bible is right, and any who say different are wrong.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Ah, then you’re okay with forcing women to get abortions if a husband suspects that his property is gestating another man’s heir? Thanks for making that clear.

  • JustoneK

    Really, and where does it say that it is wrong to kill a fetus? Ever?

    In the old testament itself God’s all about killing heathen babies.

    Do you even go here?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Well, it says that if you cause a woman to miscarry, that’s wrong. It even tells you what kind of wrong it is:

    It’s a property crime against the man the woman belongs to.

  • John (not McCain)

    Fuck the bible.

  • The_L1985

    Dude, if you don’t like Christians, then why are you on a Christian blog to begin with? Did you seriously miss the part where Fred is a Christian?

  • Victor Savard

    John putting the bible ass hide, would YA not say that Kathleen Battle has a great voice in this little rendition of “Were You There When They Crucified My Lord”? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=l-94UqqyeGg

    Go Figure! :)
    Peace

  • dj_pomegranate

    “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.” (Exodus 21:22)

    “Anyone who assaults and kills another person must be put to death.” (Exodus 21:12)

    How do you reconcile this?

  • Seraph4377

    Has the coward answered your question yet?

  • Fanraeth

    Declaring that whatever the Bible says is right is Right means that you must support genocide, rape, forced marriages, slavery, capital punishment for disobedient children, and a number of other things people who don’t approach morality with a Bronze Age mindset would consider morally abhorrent.

  • AnonaMiss

    So, was I that difficult to understand, or are you completely ignoring my question?

    What protections should be extended to individual sperm and egg cells, which have unique human DNA, are living human cells, and may in the future become human beings?

  • pastorboy

    I answered that question. An individual sperm is lacks the egg to make a human. An individual egg lacks the sperm to make a human. But you are a human, and as a human, will one day die and face judgement. What will you do on that day? http://www.needgod.com

  • The_L1985

    I can’t speak for AnonaMiss, but if I have to face judgement by your cruel version of the Christian god, then I’m going to tell him, to his face, that he is a cruel monster, and that I’d rather be tortured for eternity than spend one moment in adoration of a monster.

  • AnonaMiss

    If I die and “find” “myself” “facing” “judgment,” I will react in the same way I do to my occasional Christian-themed hallucinations: I will laugh and use my semi-conscious control over the hallucination to make them perform Thriller.

    (Once you’ve taught yourself to hallucinate at will, it’s hard for them to fool you again.)

  • Ursula L

    To quote Huckleberry Finn, when he realized that according to the form of Christianity that he had been raised in, he would need to betray his friend Jim back into slavery if he was to be saved – “Fine, I’ll go to hell.”

    Salvation has to be worth the price, and if the price is oppressing someone through slavery, or abandoning people to die from treatable medical problems, or treating some people as second class, then the price of salvation is too high. Or at least, it is too high if you are interested in being a good, kind and decent person, rather than a selfish and self-serving person who doesn’t care who they have to hurt so long as they get saved.

  • AnonaMiss

    So you choose an arbitrary line, the point at which sperm and egg hit, as the point at which they suddenly deserve protection. Sperm aren’t people until they’ve met a partner? How sexist.

    Think of the potential babies! Think of all the potential babies that die every time you masturbate – and also every time you go long enough without that they are recycled back into your body!

    Think of all the babies you’re killing by preventing those sperm from implanting in an egg! It’s far more babies than are killed by preventing an egg from implanting in an endometrium, say via an IUD.

    Won’t someone think of the children!? Outlaw masturbation and non-masturbation and require every male to report to a sperm bank every 3-5 days for extraction and cryogenic storage! With modern technology, we can save those babies.

  • Victor Savard

    (((What will you do on that day?)))

    With all due respect pastorboy, I do agree with a lot of what you said but after I took the test you provided, I must tell you and these creaters to go back to the drawing board cause when you tell any “ONE” that GOD will be sending them to hell, that’s where I draw the line.

    Long story short, GOD (Good Old Dad) does not send any “ONE” to hell and longer story short, all of U>S (usual sinners) send ourselves to where ever our Backward Lived Live will take U>S so please don’t get me started.

    I got UP this morning to shave and the face clothed that I used turned to what seemed like red blood after I put HOT Water on “IT” so please pray for me.

    God Bless,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0169m3oNf4

    Peace

  • http://www.facebook.com/alisonkay.hardtmann Alison Kay Hardtmann

    If, instead of facing a God who loves and understands us, I face your smitingly hateful Westboro Baptist deity, I’ll explain that I did my utmost to love my God with all of my heart and to love my neighbor as myself. If that’s wrong, then I’ll deal with the consequences.

    What will you say, if God turns out not to be as petty and hate-filled as you expect Him to be and he asks you why you were so intent on driving people away from Him?

    Abortion is a difficult issue, and one with many factors to consider. It’s best left to the person most affected by any decision made. We can make abortions a lot rarer by providing solid help to women who choose to be pregnant and to any children she has, as well as by providing a good education and access to free birth control. Planned Parenthood has done more to reduce the need for abortions than any number of angry white men yelling at women for having had sex.

  • The_L1985

    Don’t forget protections to cancer cells! Those also have unique human DNA and are living human cells! And some, like the (unethically harvested) HeLa cells, have been alive for decades!

  • Ursula L

    That’s an assertion not an argument. If you want people to accept the Bible as right, you need to explain why, in a way that is not a circular “for the Bible tells me so” way.

    And, around here, you’d better do so in a way that accounts for all the horribleness from the Bible that Fred highlighted in his “Chick-Fil-A Biblical Family of the Day” series of posts.

    Christian or not, anyone who is a regular reader here is very familiar with the Bible, good bits and bad.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Okay, you asked your question. Now get back to us with undeniable, non-religious proof life starts somewhere before the third trimester. And after that, explain why fetuses deserve to be the sole exception to the fact that we, as a country, condemn forcing people to support others by giving up their bodies/organs.

    Because the majority of this country does not believe that a 2 celled, newly conceived blacocyst is a person. Nor do they believe that a woman should be required to wreck her life to play slave to those two cells.

    There is no inherent right to life. The earliest place the Constitution confers rights is at birth. Nowhere is conception mentioned. If you believe your bible says otherwise, then more power to you. But this is America, and we don’t base laws on religious beliefs, so you’re going to need something more than “My God says so.”

    Also, here’s something you may want to think about: You’re crying about something that will NEVER happen to you. You will never be put in the situation where you have to make this choice. Maybe you should show some grace and decency and let us make this decision ourselves? You know, since we’re the ones whose lives will be affected.

  • JustoneK

    He has yet to even respond to me. I suspect flagrant and truly clueless trolling.

    Leaving decisions to the incubators? Next they’ll think they should be getting paid for working as they incubate!

  • The_L1985

    Er, a newly-conceived human is a zygote. A blastocyst is a particular stage in embryonic development in which you basically have a little hollow ball of cells. This stage happens a week after conception.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Fixed. Thanks for the correction.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Do all females deserve the protection of our legal and health care system?

    All female persons, yes. Also all male persons and all other persons. Fetuses, female or otherwise (not that we could possibly know fetal gender), are not persons.

  • The_L1985

    We can know fetal gender, or at least sexual phenotype as XY or XX, via amniocentesis or uterine villi sampling. We just can’t know these things in early embryos. :)

  • EllieMurasaki

    Those tell us XX vs XY vs whatever less-common thing. Not gender. Have fun figuring out somebody’s gender before they’ve figured it out themselves, a thing fetuses do not have the context or the brain capacity to do.

  • The_L1985

    But “female” is a sex, not a gender. We can’t know what a child’s gender identity is until after they’re old enough to talk; we can know what a child’s sex is long before that. Hence, “sexual phenotype.”

  • EllieMurasaki

    You clearly haven’t been told off for saying someone with XX and a uterus is ‘female-bodied’ when their sex is ‘genderqueer’ same as their gender. I have.

  • The_L1985

    …If they have genitalia that aren’t clearly male or female, isn’t the term for that “intersex?” “Genderqueer” refers to mental self-concept (i.e., gender); “intersex” refers to physical sex.

    A person’s genitals identify them as physically male, female or intersex; a person’s gender identity makes them cisgendered, transgendered, or genderqueer.

  • EllieMurasaki

    They’re not intersex. They’re female-assigned-at-birth. They’re not female-bodied; their sex is not ‘female’. Sex (as a noun) is synonymous with gender. They were very clear on that.

    I’d rather do it your way, mind, but they are not nearly the only individual who’s expressed this opinion to me.

  • Lee B.

    As I understand it, in the social sciences “sex” and “gender” are used to distinguish between true biological differences and culturally-created differences that are often incorrectly attributed to biology. Making them synonyms erases this useful distinction (and leaves the language poorer for it, but when has that ever mattered).

  • EllieMurasaki

    Gender isn’t culturally created. Gender expression is culturally policed, but that’s not the same thing.

  • AnonaMiss

    The only way I can make sense of that statement is if you believe that there is a set, genetically hardwired spectrum of psychological genders, and different cultures have historically recognized subsets of them, with the genders of different cultures mapping to different parts of the spectrum.

    I haven’t given this idea enough thought to agree or disagree with it, but am I correct that this is what you think ‘creates’ gender? If not, where does gender come from, if not culture?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Gender is not genetic. It can’t be. See also trans and genderqueer people. And it can’t be cultural, because the categories ‘male’, ‘female’, and ‘other’ are pan-cultural. Likeliest seems a confluence of factors among which are genetics and culture.

  • AnonaMiss

    Well, technically, psychological gender can’t be fully sex-linked. There could still be a suite of genes controlling psychological gender.

    Like for example, if there was a Gender protein the production of which is coded by the X chromosome, such that having 100 ppm of it in your blood made you Woman and having only 50 ppm of it made you Man, and additional genders, mutations on non-sex chromosomes could for example stimulate overproduction, or block the gender receptors, or blah blah blah what have you. And that’s if psychological gender is only on a linear spectrum! The possibilities on an n-dimensional gender spectrum explode.

    Personally I still incline towards gender being primarily cultural, largely because after an upbringing as gender-neutral as my parents could manage, I find the whole idea… strange. Gender seems to me about defining oneself with relation to cultural archetypes, which seem to me to be thrown together rather arbitrarily.

    Furthermore, I speculate that the categories of male, female, and other being pan-cultural are not an indication that gender is genetic, but rather a manifestation of the human tendency to group/categorize things and cast the groups in opposition to each other, even if the groupings sometimes seem totally arbitrary. Noun classes (“grammatical gender”) are a good example of this, especially moving past the Indo-European languages into some truly “wtf why is a fire hydrant in the same gender as a blade of grass but not a cactus” languages like Fula.

  • Lee B.

    I disagree, but I’m having a blood sugar crash, so my explanation why will have to wait until I can think clearly again.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    I think it is more likely that gender is culturally created and individually selected. If it wasn’t culturally created, it seems passing unlikely that within any culture, such a large percentage of members creates one of exactly two genders for themselves.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    I think we can respect an individual’s choice of how they want to define their own sex and gender without giving up on words having objective consensus meanings for the rest of us.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Yeah, I know. I just don’t know what the word is that has the consensus meaning of ‘born with penis’ or ‘born with uterus’, since ‘sex’ ain’t it.

  • Mark Z.

    I just don’t know what the word is that has the consensus meaning of ‘born with penis’ or ‘born with uterus’, since ‘sex’ ain’t it.

    “Sex” absolutely is it. Whoever complained to you about not being “female-bodied” despite having a female body just doesn’t understand that, and is probably having a kneejerk reaction to being called “female” in any way. “Genderqueer” is a category of gender, not sex.

    Now, “sex” is a tricky concept too, because while there is a single genetic switch (the SRY gene) for the mechanism of sex differentiation, the mechanism isn’t perfect, and there are a bunch of ways to end up with a penis and a uterus, or other combinations.

    What there is not is any defensible way to say “I’m 46XX and have ovaries and a uterus and a vulva but dammit my sex is not female.”

  • Carstonio

    I’m also leery of using “sex” to denote biological differences, because the world also denotes sexual pleasure. The wording of the old Equal Rights Amendment could be interpreted as meaning that rights cannot be denied to people who refuse a request for intercourse.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    My concern is that giving people the right to redefine their biology at will seems like a potential slippery slope. Though, migraine isn’t helping me articulate why necessarily, so I might be off my rocker. It just seems like biology and physiology ought to be free from subjective interpretation at some core level, or else what’s the difference between XY chromosome penis-owner claiming to be female at birth and “Yes, Plan B does cause abortions, and I know this because I feel very strongly about it!” ?

  • pastorboy

    It is not a fetus- it is a baby. No matter what you call it, no matter what science calls it. God knew it, knit it together in its mothers’ womb. You are wicked, and you need to repent of your hatred for unborn babies.

  • Ursula L

    My grandmother was a living, breathing human being. You need to repent your hatred of pregnant women.

  • EllieMurasaki

    It is not a fetus- it is a baby.

    Well, yeah, once he, she, ze, they, or em is born. Beforehand, it’s a fetus.

  • CriminalizeAbortion

    A fetus of what? It’s simply an unborn human. My daughter was born 10 weeks premature, if she was only human outside the womb at 30 weeks than was my son not human in the womb at 36 weeks?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Becoming a person is a process. The fact that you’re morally depraved doesn’t make personhood some kind of on-off switch.

  • EllieMurasaki

    My daughter was born 10 weeks premature, if she was only human outside the womb at 30 weeks than was my son not human in the womb at 36 weeks?
    That would be a valid point if your children were gestated by machines. Since somebody gave birth to your children and that somebody is unmistakably human, it’s not.

    Unless you want to argue that a baby isn’t yet human either, which I disagree with but I am willing to entertain the possibility.

  • AnonaMiss

    Personally I draw the personhood line at ~2-3 months, when language learning begins. There’s no behavior that distinguishes a human as more person-y than any other animal before that point. Actually there’s a fair possibility that this aligns fairly well with earlier Homo birth-age, since part of our species’ adaptation to our gigantic skulls was pushing birth earlier and earlier.

    That’s a purely academic tangent however.

  • The_L1985

    We agree that fetuses are human. We just don’t agree that they are people. My hairs are all human hairs, but they’re not all separate people. If I had a tumor growing inside me, it would be made of human cells, but it wouldn’t be a person.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You need to repent of your hatred of women, of female agency, of female sexuality, and your hatred of babies — yes, those babies who you’d condemn to a short life full of suffering as trisomy or ancephaly or a dozen other horrific birth defects kill them, those who will grow up unwanted, hated and abused by the women who were tortured into giving birth to them. And since you’re a Christian, you should probably repent of the injury you do to Jesus, because you’re causing real suffering to real women with your policies, and I think you’ll find that Matthew 25:34-46 pretty well covers what you do to Jesus when you oppress the oppressed.

  • Katie

    As someone who has had an abortion, I can only say:

    FUCK YOU.
    I had an abortion because it was the best choice for me, my family, and yes, for the babies that I aborted.

  • Isabel C.

    You are a twit and there’s no point arguing with you.
    So I’m going to copy (I think) Jessica R: for every post you make here, I donate $5 to Planned Parenthood. I believe you’ve gotten up to $50 by now.

  • Ursula L

    I think you need to go back to a good high school biology textbook and review stages of development. Zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo, fetus, baby.

    The current wikipedia article on prenatal development is pretty good, if you don’t have a good text handy.

  • Ursula L

    What about females with a fetus in their womb? Don’t they deserve the protection of medical care?

    Surely criminal murder charges should have been brought against the people who denied my grandmother access to abortion care, after her doctors told her that pregnancy would kill her, and when she actually died in childbirth.

    Denying her life-saving medical care, simply because she was pregnant and saving her life required stopping the terminal medical condition she was suffering (called “pregnancy”) is, at the very least, negligent homicide.

  • pastorboy

    Praise God! Without her sacrifice, you would not be here. Instead of criticizing the Doctors for making a choice that saved your parents’ life, you curse them? Shame on you!

  • Ursula L

    It was not her sacrifice. Not something she willingly gave up for the benefit of another.

    It was her murder. And a murder victim is not a sacrifice for the glory of god.

    And I’d still be here – she nearly died when my mother was born. She was told not to have more children, as it would kill her. My grandfather wanted sons. He had his rights. She died giving birth to my aunt. A minor loss, in my grandfather’s eyes, with the only shame being that the child he killed her to have was a girl rather than a boy.

    And damn any god who wanted her dead.

  • pastorboy

    Don’t blaspheme God, praise Him that you are here and can receive His grace. I am sorry for your story, but I believe that God can redeem you and adopt you for His glory. http://www.180movie.com

  • Captain Obvious

    Why the hell would she want to be adopted by your god after his people killed her grandma?

  • Ursula L

    My life is neither more nor less valuable than my mothers, or my grandmothers. I have no right to take their lives in order to live.

    My mother, after what my grandmother went through,was justifiably afraid of pregnancy and giving birth. And I am very glad that I was born in a time and place when she had access to birth control, as well as access to safe and legal abortion.

    I know I was born because she chose to face her fears, and wanted me, not because she was forced through the terror of what had killed her mother.

  • Ursula L

    Someone dies horribly from a condition which could easily be treated, and your god thinks this is good?

    Frankly, your god is an absolute asshole, to think it is good for people to die because medical treatment that could save their life is deliberately withheld.

    I don’t see anything “pro-life” about a god that wants people to die from treatable medical conditions, or who wants to be praised because my grandmother was abandoned by the medical professionals who were supposed to be caring for her. Pro-death, certainly – you seem not just resigned to, but absolutely gleeful, that my grandmother was killed due to government-mandated medical neglect.

    Which is not to say that the treatment should be forced on someone against their will – if someone prefers to risk letting their medical condition continue despite the risk, that’s their choice.

    Why would I want to be redeemed by a god who thinks it is good for people to be left to die from completely treatable medical conditions?

    You’ve got to make a stronger argument that your god is actually good, not just assert it.

  • pastorboy

    The evidence that God is good and loving is that you are here, and allowed to continue in your existence even when you blaspheme His holy name. You do not give him thanks for the air in your lungs, as you should. You do not thank him for your heart beating, the sun in the sky, the provision for your needs. It is this kindness that ought to lead you to repentance.

  • Ursula L

    Simply leaving me alive is proof of love?

    Or even simply leaving me alive after I’ve expressed some contempt?

    Because that is a very low standard of “love.” It doesn’t even reach the basics of kindness and good manners that is basic human decency. Let alone the care that my parents gave me, a wanted and chosen child, or the care I have for my neblings, or even for my next door neighbor, or a stranger I’ll go out of my way to hold a door for.

    You seem to give god credit for being “loving” simply for not being too much of a murderous monster.

    If any god wants my respect, they have to do better than that. Likewise, any human.

  • pastorboy

    He did- despite your contempt for Him, He became flesh, dwelled among us, and laid down His life for us. We sinned against God, we deserved death and his Holy wrath poured out on us for all eternity, but He sent His son Jesus, who volunteered to take your place. All you must do is repent, turn from your sin and your own self righteousness, and turn to Christ. I pray that you will.

  • Ursula L

    I don’t approve of torture and murder. Which is what crucifixion is. And I don’t approve of anyone being tortured and murdered on my behalf, or allegedly for my benefit.

    If the crucifixion is the best salvation plan that God can come up with, then God needs to do a better job. Because if you’re making a plan, and somehow someone being tortured and murdered becomes part of the plan, even incidentally let alone as a central part of the plan, you need to go back to the drawing board.

    I don’t require someone to be tortured and murdered in order to forgive them if they have harmed me. There is no reason to accept a lower moral standard from God.

  • SisterCoyote

    I s’pose at this point, I might well follow the example of the atheists here on Slacktivist, who turn up to tell the atheist-trolls to buzz off.

    You’re not expressing love, dude. You’re expressing contempt and anger, and you’re passing judgement by telling others to repent of sins that YOU have decided they committed. Your interpretation of the Bible is a narrow one, and not the only one, and before you go casting stones through this thread, can you tell me where in the Bible it talks about abortion? Anywhere at all?

    I am not a false Christian because I disagree with you. Fred is not a false Christian because he disagrees with you. (And, for the record, you might want to take a long look at your own comments here before you go accusing others of self-righteousness.)

    You, sir, do not hold the keys to the gospel – you are not a gatekeeper, and quite frankly, you’re not doing a very good job of lighting the way. Christ died to save us, to save all humanity, not to give an elite few the moral high ground with which to beat others into submission.

  • pastorboy

    Sister, you are right. I cannot judge anybody. It is God who says there is nobody righteous, not even one (Romans 3:10) That there is none good – Have you ever lied? I have. God’s word says that lying lips are an abomination (Prov 12:22) and all liars will have their part in a lake of fire (Rev 21:18). One sin, one transgression is enough to make you a lawbreaker and deserving of the punishment of a holy, holy God. Since I am a liar (thats just the beginning…I am a thief because I have stolen, an adulterer because I have looked with lust (MT 5:25), and an idolater because I have had a false view of God) I deserve Hell, and I need a Savior. Thats why I had to repent, I had to turn- even my good works could not please God. I needed an alien righteousness. And we are all in the same boat- we need a Savior. http://www.needgod.com

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    So God wrote a rule which he knows no one can keep, and gave it a punishment as severe and non-proportionate to the crime as can be imagined, and he lies in wait for an opportunity to spring the trap and punish someone.

    Is it just me, or does God exhibit the exact same sort of behavior one would expect of an abusive lover?

    http://labmf.org/facts/warning_signs
    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/abusive-men-signs.html

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    This turns out not to be the case.

  • P J Evans

    Fine. That’s YOUR sins. God has no business punishing US for what YOU do or don’t do. Don’t condemn others, because it comes back and lands on YOU.

  • dj_pomegranate

    For someone who claims you cannot judge anyone, you sure are doing a whollllle lotta judging up in this comment thread.

    I thin it’s safe to say that many of us in this neighborhood of the Internet are very familiar with this version of boilerplate “testimony” and “witness,” the kind that “proves” that “even the smallest sin casts us out from God’s presence, and that’s why Jesus matters…etc.” I’m pretty sure I spent a few years on my high horse saying this exact same thing to a lot of people. What you’re saying is not new to many (most?) of us, it is not thoughtful, and it does not even attempt to answer the very good questions that people here are asking.

  • SisterCoyote

    I cannot judge anybody. It is God who says there is nobody righteous, not even one (Romans 3:10)

    Although I understand what you’re trying to say, the fact remains that what I have seen from you is an attempt to pass what you believe to be God’s judgement on the rest of us. You’re a flawed human being, as you say, like all humanity – what gives you that right? Jesus was very, very clear in telling us not to try to – I believe the phrasing was separate the wheat from the chaff – was he not? Wasn’t there something about how no one can pass judgement, here on Earth? Why are you acting as though it is your place to tell people whether they are saved or condemned? Where does Christ say that his sacrifice was only for people who voted anti-choice pro-life?

    The weird part is, I agree with your external words, to some extent. There is none righteous, no, not one – yes. That’s true, we’ve all fucked up and hurt people. I even, as a Christian, believe that Christ’s sacrifice is the reason why we are all redeemed. Which also means that you have NO RIGHT to go around telling people they are not redeemed. You have no right to tell others to repent, for things that you have decided are a sin. Again – tell me, please, where in the Bible it says that abortion is a sin. And then tell me where it says that it is the responsibility of Christians to demand repentance for that sin.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I can direct you to the part of the Bible which speaks to abortion (as opposed to an incident which causes a miscarriage). Unfortunately, it’s in reference to forcing a woman suspected of adultery to have one, begins on the premise of “you are guilty until God proves you otherwise” and is obviously designed with failure in mind.

  • https://pjevansgen.wordpress.com/ P J Evans

    Your god is a hate-filled monster. A truly loving god doesn’t kill people for its own amusement or because they weren’t sufficiently afraid.

  • The_L1985

    That sounds even more like a cruel god. “I MADE YOU,” says the image of God you are conjuring with these words. “I CAN UNMAKE YOU.”

    If allowing me to exist is a kindness in the eyes of your god, I’d hate to see His idea of unkindness.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Someone’s played Soul Reaver 2, I take it! And if not, that’s almost a word for word quote from the game. “Do not test my patience, Raziel. I made you — and I will unmake you if I become so inclined!” Here’s a video of that scene, skipped to the exact quote.

    I’ve always suspected that the design and dialogue fo the Elder God was intended to be one part Lovecraftian horror, one part subversion of Christian fundamentalism. Now that I’m more aware of such things, I can see meaningful levels to the script of that game. (Then again, religious subtext in a game where one of the primary characters is named Kain? Nawww.)

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Famous last words of many a mad scientist: “I am your creator! You will obey- urk”

  • JustoneK

    A good and loving God would not have inflicted me on my family.

    You’re still an asshole in your own little asshole bubble blissfully unaware of what an asshole you are to other folks.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Then how are we to interpret the fact that this “good and loving” God allows Ursula to live despite”blaspheming His holy name,” but chose to kill her grandmother who did nothing more than attempt to give her husband the son he wanted?

    Fuck you and your obscene death-god. Yours isn’t the God of the christianity I know.

  • Fanraeth

    After the comments you’ve made on this thread, the only way I would visit that website was under the threat of death and even then I’d seriously consider refusing.

  • The_L1985

    Any god who wants women to die in childbirth, leaving her other children without a mother, is far too cruel and atrocious to be worth worshiping.

    I’ll stick to Artemis, thanks. She was identified as a mother figure by the Ephesians, so I’m pretty sure she understands the whole “sacrifices of motherhood” thing a lot better than your male deity does. :)

  • Ursula L

    A general point on good manners.

    When you hear about someone’s death, the polite response is sorrow, not praise.

    If you hear about the death of someone’s relative or friend, the polite response is “my condolences” if the death is recent, or “I’m sorry to hear that” if it is more distant.

    Responding to news of someone’s death, particular a horrible and painful death that could have been prevented, with “Praise God” makes you look like an unfeeling jerk, because it is an unfeeling and jerkish thing to say, and it makes any god who wants to be praised for a painful and preventable death come across as a monster, because such a god is monstrous.

  • Carstonio

    What’s missing in any of the replies Pastorboy has been making to you is what kind of world he wants to live in. There’s nothing right or just about a husband demanding that his wife sacrifice her life to provide him with a son. No, your grandfather had no such right. He sounds like a patriarch in a Pat Conroy novel. The irony is that we now know that the determinant of the sex comes from the father.

  • Ursula L

    I quite agree that my grandfather had no moral right to such a demand.

    But in patriarchal culture, he has a practical right to act on those demands, which is what killed my grandmother.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Without her sacrifice, you would not be here. Instead of criticizing the Doctors for making a choice that saved your parents’ life, you curse them?

    I believe the baby that killed Ursula’s grandmother was Ursula’s aunt. You wanna rethink that statement?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    And contrariwise, I assume, any posters who were subsequent children to a mother who had previously terminated a life-threatening pregnancy should curse their own existence? I mean, they should resent those wicked doctors who murdered their older sibling and saved their mother’s life, thus allowing them to be born. Right?

    Because we’ve had people here who have that in their life story. There are people here who would not exist if their parents hadn’t terminated an earlier pregnancy.

    You want to tell them how they shouldn’t exist? You want to tell them how their mother is a murderer who should have died years before they were born? Tell them to their faces.

  • AnonaMiss

    This sort of shit makes me want to register for Disqus just so I can downvote it.

  • P J Evans

    That’s the only reason I ever log in.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    I log in with openid and I can downvote.

  • The_L1985

    I feel like pointing out that the personhood of unborn humans was not widely accepted before the 19th century at all–indeed, before that time we didn’t even know that egg cells and sperm cells got together to form a baby!

    There were special herbs used in ancient times to start women menstruating again after they stopped (which meant, in effect, that they were chemical abortifacients). There was no moral value, positive or negative, attributed to this act. The Bible doesn’t even mention the practice, even though it was so widespread that the herbs in question went extinct in the later days of the Roman Empire! It was also common to leave your babies in the wilderness to die of exposure if they had severe birth defects.

    Women generally weren’t considered to really be pregnant until they felt the baby kick (often called “quickening” in medieval literature), mainly because most miscarriages happen during the first trimester, and if you were pregnant long enough to feel the baby kick you had a high chance of a healthy birth. That baby often wasn’t named until it was over a year old, and was referred to as an “it” until age 5 or 6, because disease claimed so many infants and young children.

    Exposure of children with harlequin ichthyosis was probably extremely widespread, as the disease has an extremely low chance of survival anyway, and the affected infants are so frightening in appearance that people likely would have considered them demonic in nature. And yes, this was also a widespread practice in Christian countries.

    Opposition to abortion, and equation of abortion with murder, are both very modern phenomena, neither of which is even as old as the United States.

  • VMink

    What should the penalty be for a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is illegal?

  • http://dumas1.livejournal.com/ Winter

    Regardless of what a legislature decides, illegal abortions were all-too-often “punished” with horrific injuries and/or raging sepsis, potentially leading to death. I really wish I was not cynical enough to believe that there are people out there who would not consider that a downside to banning abortions.

    I remember a number of essays in the last few years from old gynaecologists who remember the pre-Roe v. Wade days describing the kind of injuries that could result from coat hangers and other methods. It’s a horrifying example of how far desperation can drive someone. That alone is a reason to keep abortion legal and safe.

  • VMink

    It’s just that the people who go on and on (and on and on) about how abortion is murder never, ever, ever answer that question. No matter if they’re a sincere believer or a drive-by troll, they always ignore that question. It’s actually kind of fascinating. They seem to know that ‘Stoning” is not an answer that will get them many allies.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    (nods) This is precisely the reaction I would expect if supporting anti-abortion legislation were seen primarily as a symbol with which to express one’s high valuation of fetuses, rather than as an actual change-in-the-world one attempts to implement.

  • AnonaMiss

    Eh, I’ve seen it answered plenty of times. Usually the answer is “Whatever the penalty for murder or conspiracy to murder is in that state.” or “That’s for the judge/legislators to decide.” Which are fair answers.

    It was a good question when it was new and forced people to think about it – especially the ones who had the intuition that it shouldn’t be treated the same as actual murder – but now that it’s been around for a couple years it’s either ignored, or answered with the above. Neither of which is particularly productive.

    (Not that you shouldn’t ask it, by all means do; I’m just musing.)

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    When is enslaving a person and forcing them to use their own body as a life-support system for someone else against their will and at their own expense okay?

  • Tapetum

    You know what, Pastorboy? This female human loves her mother, and would rather have been aborted than to have been borne to term as a result of her slavery. Fortunately, I was much wanted. You know who else feels the same way, even more strongly than I do? My mother. Who was not wanted, and whose mother actually tried to abort her. She failed, because abortion was neither safe nor legal, and as it happened she was bearing twins, so instead of a proper abortion she had what amounted to a selective reduction.

    Oh – and lest one get the wrong idea? My grandmother was a reasonably well-off, married woman who just did. not. want. children. Based on the results, she was right, she was a miserable mother in every sense of the term.

    Every child a wanted child.

  • banancat

    If you think that it’s ok to murder a trespasser on your property, then why can’t I decide who resides inside my own body?

    If you don’t actually think it’s ok to murder trespassers and that it’s everyone’s obligation to provide support for others, then give away one of your kidneys and then we’ll talk.

  • Slash

    Eh, more speechifying from Bachmann for the dummies who voted for her. I’m pretty sure the poors and the non-white populations are by now well aware of how much the Republican party cares about them and their children.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Fred isn’t condemning Warren’s medical services or charity. Fred is condemning Warren’s theology, which condemns anyone for accepting medical services or charity from anyone of whom Warren doesn’t approve.

    Warren’s many, many other failings are secondary to this.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tom-Massey/1261308196 Tom Massey

    Rick Warren doesn’t condemn or judge anyone. Condemnation or Judgement has consequences. Similarly, your erroneous assessment is not judgement. You & Rick Warren are identically un-qualified to pass judgement. Judgement will be passed by the ONE.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    So if there are no immediate consequences, there’s no judgment taking place?

  • Victor Savard

    (((Can’t you just feel the love?))) He’s made it clear that if they ask for bread he will give them a stone, if they ask for a fish he will give them a snake.)))

    Fred! Victor back again!

    Come on sinner vic Be nice NOW! Remember that they all love me here and my the way I like this “ONE” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h81Ojd3d2rY

    “I” give UP Fred! I guess “IT” must be true that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO51AThtPzc but Fred “IT” is the year of the snake! Is “IT” not NOW? We gods can’t wait to get our hands on that Fear Less Son who told Victor that Slacktivist loved him when we had him staying out of here and most of your faithful follow hers were happy with that if YA get my drift NOW? We 98% godly cells ask what’s wrong with following this little dirty little secret butt although be careful Fred cause these 2% kissing butt cells of the alien gods are also protecting this All Canadian Rejects and believe me with their help, Victor could write 66 books without even bending a dick in 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=rLmAnzi_52k&feature=endscreen but what good would “IT” do for our Throne if YA know what “I” mean cause this is 2013! Is “IT” not NOW?

    Be nice sinner vic Don’t be like that NOW!

    Shut The “F” UP! OH! NO! Don’t shut UP cause we still have not figured out who the anti-christ is going to be butt between U>S 98% godly cells, you’re the run her UP in our book butt let’s not forget to elec an uncle-christ too cause we can’t leave “MAN” out of “IT” if YA follow U>S NOW! Right Victor?

    Victor! Victor! Victor! You’re just too sensitive for your own good http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2013/03/comparing-benedict-and- if your 2% remining cells can’t evolve then they should all stay out of the kitchen if “IT” gets too hot for them cause even Panda’s know that NOW!

    Listen Victor! What YA Canadians need is some http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgawTEzsJD0 so we gods will speak to http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/jon-stewart-vs-stephen-colbert/ cause we know what is important to YA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw4tWdQWv68 butt remember that some poeple like to ware rings in their nose NOW! Hey Victor we might even throw in a few feminane godly cells your way like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHcvU2vU7O0 NOW!

    Hey sinner vic butt I like this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrVkCotklAk NOW!

    No problem Victor cause if we work to get her, “I” mean together anything is possible http://www.cmt.com/videos/darius-rucker/649671/together-anything-is-possible.jhtml cause we cat licks, I mean Catholics are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z19aPirzyw and besides YA know as hell, I mean as well as we godly cells know that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKqbZUIrhA4 and besides where you’ve got billions of human cells in reality, well I’M just saying that we’ve got million of Transhuminisum spiritual virus cells if YA get our drift NOW?

    WHATEVER sinner vic butt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNpLSaCirj8

    Trust U>S Victor and if YA don’t believe just check “IT” out for yourselves http://www.americancatholic.org/features/saintofday/default.aspx and you’ve even got our permission to ask http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2013/03/22/pope-francis-affirms-dictatorship-of-relativism/ NOW! Victor we alien gods don’t want to keep wipping a dead horse and “I” like what this so called “Jesus” was to have said in so many words that if a large force is threatening to move in on YA, what you should do is bring out those so called “White flags” butt Victor don’t forget that we alien gods are not afraid of those colored flags either if YA get my drift and remember what History thought U>S http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YN4l2CTURQ and don’t forget that we’ve got more than a 1,000 faces http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95_KvyUFi3U of lust and as far as we gods are concerned “IT” is just another picture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAzrCvCg9Tw NOW!

    Listen closely sinner vic! America was born “Free” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLEr9eRMQU and that includes the rest of GOD’s Children who also want “IT” NOW!

    STOP “IT” sinner vic! THAT WILL HAPPEN OVER MY DEAD BODY! Don’t be like that! Be nice! You know that GOD (Good Old Dad) has big her plans for U>S (usual sinners) and my wife is calling me for supper and so I’ve got to go NOW!

    Really Victor?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KY6Hov0wSc “IT” was a labor of LOVE

    Go Figure! :)

    Peace

  • Victor Savard

    Help…Can’t read comments so trying this…..(L0L)

  • http://www.facebook.com/chrisalgoo Chris Algoo

    Slacktivist really has been getting interesting commenters these days. First the Missouri Synod defense force and now this.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    It happens. Someone posts the link in their own locale and a bunch of people follow it. It’s getting worse now that a few people on Facebook have started posting links here, calling in all the FB trolls.

  • Carstonio

    The Saddleback posse?

  • martsen79

    Because I know it’s one of Fred’s favorite (least-favorite) topics, via the irreplaceable Christian Nightmares, I give you a Satanism scare from what looks like the 80s or very early 90s:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTT-ifp0qZk

    No one can be ignorant of the metreoric (sic) rise of Satanism. Smokin’ the drugs and drinking baby blood to the gyrating metal music of SATAN.

  • http://caffinatedlemur.wordpress.com/ caffinatedlemur

    I donated to PP for the first time the other week. I’d used their services before for getting medical checkups when I was scared and didn’t trust the reactions of my loved ones (no I never ever ever thought — nor would I be — in danger, but it would have made life much more difficult/uncomfortable for me). Both times I went I was scared and felt more alone than I have in my entire life even when I had a sympathetic friend go with me. And PP provided me with a peace of mind and the tools I needed to keep myself healthy without adding to any of the emotional baggage I was already carrying around about having to use the “eeeeevil PP”. If one scared, lonely person is helped by them with any portion of the money I gave? Absolutely 100% worth it. I’m passing my good fortune and a little bit of my stability on to them…it’s the right thing to do.

  • Richard

    Wow. There is not even an attempt at truth in this article. And no dissenting comments? You are all so self-righteous and so wrong.

  • EllieMurasaki

    [citation needed]

  • Lori

    Obviously you didn’t actually read the comments and you offered nothing to back up your comment about “truth”. It seems that the one who is self-righteous and wrong is you.

    Why am I guessing that you’ll have no response to this at all? You seem like the drive-by troll sort.

  • http://rightcrafttool.blogspot.com/ Sign Ahead

    I’m trying to figure this one out, and it hurts my brain.

    Maybe it’s some sort of formula or talisman. It doesn’t matter if the words are actually true, as long as you say the words they provide a measure comfort and self-satisfaction.

    Or maybe it’s a clever self-parodying discussion-board koan. Poe’s Law as revelatory art.

    Or maybe it’s the grown-up (for a certain value of “grown-up”) version of “Nuh-uh!” or “No, you!”

    Whatever it is, I feel like it’s a perfect, self-contained….something. Richard, can you provide a little context or explanation?

  • VMink

    The lack of context, anything specific, and even anything more concrete than ‘this article’ — and of course no followup — makes it sound like a troll version of ‘Great article, I agree with everything said here, please link back!’ spam.

    So bascially: “They have an autotroll!” That’s actually kind of impressive, bringing trolling into the mass-manufacturing era!

  • Baby_Raptor

    You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

  • https://pjevansgen.wordpress.com/ P J Evans

    Thanks ever so much for that disconnected comment.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    Is someone stealing the real smrnda’s handle? There’s this, and there’s a completely different comment below.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    Weird, yesterday Richard’s comment was showing up under “smrnda”, not “Richard”. Another vagary of Disqus?

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Probably. I saw an unregistered user’s name change a bit ago after the major upgrade, too.

  • Grey Seer

    Please , elaborate. I am sure it would be absolutely [i]fascinating[/i].

  • CriminalizeAbortion
  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Because nothing says “embrace Christianity” than exploiting the deaths of millions of Jews in a breathtaking example of false equivalency.

  • CriminalizeAbortion

    2 simple messages in this film. 1st being, abortion is murder. 2nd is this, Unless you repent and trust in Christ alone for your salvation, you will spend eternity in torment for your crimes against a holy God.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam
  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    So zero worthwhile things. Good.

    The God and the Christ I worship is in the business of saving souls, not throwing them into lakes of fire like some super-powered playground bully.

  • Isabel C.

    That’s another $20 to Planned Parenthood. Wanna shoot for fifty like your buddy?

  • http://www.facebook.com/chrisalgoo Chris Algoo

    Nothing says holy like damning people to eternal torment, right?

  • banancat

    You do know that movie is full of outright, blatant lies, right? Or are you really just that gullible?

  • CriminalizeAbortion

    Um………..not true….you need to repent….All liars will have their part in the lake of fire….Rev 21:8

  • http://rightcrafttool.blogspot.com/ Sign Ahead

    Are you for real?

  • Fanraeth

    Hey, at least we won’t be cold.

  • The_L1985

    Wow. The brainwashing is strong in this one. You must be a lot of fun at parties.

    “Hi, Jodie, great party! The punch is pretty good. Hey, did you know that 50 million abortions have been performed since Roe v. Wade?”

  • banancat

    I guess you’ll be first in the lake then.

  • CriminalizeAbortion

    You care to answer the question? It’s OK to kill a baby in the womb when _________?

  • Captain Obvious

    (raises hand) Oooh pick me!

    When the owner of the womb (that would be a women or girl) doesn’t want it in there.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    When attempting to give birth to the fetus will cause both parties to die. When even giving birth successfully will lead to such circumstances that one or both party may die. When even the most ideal of births will lead to circumstances in which one or both party may suffer in ways which make death preferable.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    How do you get a baby into a womb without killing it?

    Here’s one for you:

    It’s OK to force one human being to donate the use of their body against their will as a life-support mechanism for another person when ____________?

  • EllieMurasaki

    It’s OK to kill a baby in the womb when _________?

    ‘Baby in the womb’ is impossible by definition. It is okay for a pregnant person to have an abortion whenever they damn well please.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    And just for good measure,
    “When it’s the natural and unavoidable consequence of a tangential medical procedure being performed on the woman whose womb it’s in.”

    Protip: Abortions aren’t something you do to babies. They’re not something you do to fetuses. They’re something you do to women*.

    But you don’t like thinking about the fact that abortions involve women, do you? You like to imagine them as being something about an Evil Doctor and a Stork or something.

    (* Or other people with uterii )

  • EllieMurasaki

    “When it’s the natural and unavoidable consequence of a tangential medical procedure being performed on the woman whose womb it’s in.”
    I know this isn’t what you meant, but that sounds exactly like the Catholic framing wherein ectopic pregnancies can only be terminated by removing the whole fallopian tube without intending to kill the embryo.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    That shouldn’t be too surprising; I think I’ve made it clear that I believe most Catholic moral teaching gets like 3/4 of the way to right, and just makes a massive wrong turn right at the end, usually due to their nasty neoplatonist authoritarian streak.

  • The_L1985

    I’m more disturbed by the “Criminalize Abortion” username. It makes it sound like he’s more concerned with punishing women who abort than he is with fetuses.

  • VMink

    What should the penalty be for a woman who gets an abortion, in a jurisdiction where abortion is illegal?

  • banancat

    It seems that the Saddleback church either has some algorithm to detect their name, or hordes of gullible minions to scour the internet for their name. And then they send a bunch of clueless crusaders here in an almost-funny attempt to set us straight. It’s like they haven’t even practiced their propaganda before this. I wonder if it’s a youth group project and it’s all a bunch of pre-teens posting these things.

  • https://pjevansgen.wordpress.com/ P J Evans

    Probably the boys’ youth group, judging by the names and the attempted arguments. They seem to hate their mothers and sisters, too, going by how much less they value women than fetuses.

  • sonottoosoon

    I would have thought pastorboy was a younger guy too going by his name, but no. He’s an older guy. His name and his social media accounts can be found easily if you wish with a little help from Google Reverse Image Search.

    Oh man. I just watched him preaching in his video “The Samaritan Woman Part 1”. It doesn’t contradict the way he’s represented himself here, put it that way.

  • https://pjevansgen.wordpress.com/ P J Evans

    I think I’ll pass, then. I didn’t grow up in a fire-and-brimstone church; I grew up in one that preached – and did – brother-and-sisterhood.

  • Hexep

    Haha oh wow this thread is awesome.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=30319652 Tim Lehnerer

    Just imagine–if Planned Parenthood were executing gays in Uganda, Rick Warren would be taking up collections from his congregation to put a franchise on every street corner in that country.

  • P J Evans

    And at the same time, he’d be denying he was involved with it.

  • SisterCoyote

    I miss the pie threads. Does anyone else miss the pie threads? …because I miss the pie threads.

  • cyllan

    I had an amazing pear pie this past weekend.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Oo, recipe?

  • cyllan

    I didn’t make it, alas, but I believe they soaked the pears in dark rum, and spiced it with cardamon. I’ll try and dig up the recipe.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Oo. Hm. Thanks!

  • P J Evans

    I have the makings of grape-pie filling in my freezer. (Concord grapes: slip the skin, cook the insides enough to run them through a sieve, then put the skins back in. It’s *purple*.)

  • SisterCoyote

    Oh man, that sounds amazing!

  • P J Evans

    Old Betty Crocker cookbook. It got reprinted several years ago (it’s from about 1957 or so). If you run into a BC cookbook that’s in a three-ring binder with tabbed dividers, check the pie section.

  • AnonaMiss

    Did everyone remember to celebrate Pi Day on the 14th?

    Only two more years until Ultra Pi Day! I’m super excited!

  • Lori

    I did. I had a slice of chocolate silk (which I did not personally make) and it was pretty yummy.

    One of these days I want to make a pie for Pi Day and cut the crust the top crust into the numbers and decimal point.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Like this? ^_^

  • Lori

    No, although that’s cool too. I can’t find a picture of the one I mean, but it has the actual numbers & the decimal cut out of dough. The number of digits would obviously depend on how big your numbers were.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche
  • Lori

    That 2nd one is way cool, but still not the one I was thinking of. The one I’m talking about didn’t have the Pi symbol at all, just the numbers. I liked that people had to recognize Pi for themselves in order to get the joke.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Sometimes it’s just obvious…

  • http://twitter.com/Saynsumthn Saynsumthn Blog

    You might do well to educate YOURSELF on Planned Parenthood by watching a powerful documentary on their history called Maafa21 http://www.maafa21.com and then look at a study which proves they set up in minority community’s called “Racial Targeting” here http://www.prolifeamerica.com

  • The_L1985

    I think I’ll play the donation game! The more you post, the more money I give to PP.

  • Fanraeth

    Since you’re obviously very concerned about the plight of racial minorities, I trust you have never complained about welfare, EBT cards, WIC or any other program that allows minority women to care for any children they decide to give birth to. Because otherwise? You look like a liar who isn’t really concerned at all, but someone trying to concern troll.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tom-Massey/1261308196 Tom Massey

    Obamacare makes it ILLEGAL to encourage my healthy lifestyle by discounting my insurance. Obamacare, like slavery, is un-constitutional, regardless of what a judge may say. It was never constitutional to keep slaves. 1+1 does not equal 3, even if every “judge” in the world agrees to it. Obamacare = OPPRESSION

  • EllieMurasaki

    You’re comparing the Affordable Care Act, the thing that will ensure that my cousin does not die of treatable complications of diabetes due to not being able to get his own health insurance, to slavery?

    Fuck off.

  • P J Evans

    Ah, Fox News talking points. Lies, but *popular* lies.
    As a matter of fact, most of it is not yet in effect, so you need to find out whether you’re being gouged by your insurance company.

  • Fanraeth

    It’s so cute when white people compare non-oppressive government policies they don’t agree with to slavery. And by cute, I mean so stupid and moronic that it makes me want to gouge out my own eyes to avoid seeing it ever again.


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