"Daddy, what's a heretic?"

Looking forward to the book where you talk about these things and more. Sorry your daughter was exposed to that, very unfortunate. Glad Mike was there for you. In all things love.

like i told you i was in class that weekend so i could not come to st. louis. But our reading talked a lot about the heresies of the past and i have to say that to call you a heretic is to draw more lines in the sand of Christianity that do not need to be drawn.

Tony, you handled that with far more grace than I would have. Let me share a quote with you from my tribe. It comes from John Wesley in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 11:18

“So wonderfully have later ages distorted the words heresy and schism from their scriptural meaning. Heresy is not, in all the Bible, taken for an error in fundamentals, or in anything else; nor schism, for any separation made from the outward communion of others. Therefore, both heresy and schism, in the modern sense of the words, are sins that the scripture knows nothing of; but were invented merely to deprive mankind of the benefit of private judgment, and liberty of conscience.”

Gotta love it

What does your daughter being there have to do with whether or not a heretic?

I love those teachable moments when our kids ask such simple, yet penetrating questions; they make you smile and cringe all at the same time. These are very interesting church-waters we find ourselves navigating through. There seems to be a lot of fear and misunderstanding floating around. But, let’s let God worry about the weeds growing with the wheat, and may we focus on baking the kind of bread that brings life to this hurting world. Thanks for all you’re doing, Tony.

Wow, sorry that your daughter was there to see that, but frankly I’m sorry I missed it. I was there a couple of years ago when Jay Bakker got the same deal, only with what seems to be a little more passion in the interchange.

It’s good for Lily to know what she’s involved in here.

Seriously, I can’t imagine that you handled this with anything but grace. And it does matter that your daughter was there and that you asked people to keep that in mind. I mean, if someone has a beef with what you’re saying–and it’s fine for someone to have a beef with something–they can still be respectful and engage in civil discourse about it, particularly when they’ve been asked to do so.

I get that for those who believe you to be a false teacher, there is no choice but to call you out with all the righteous anger they can muster. But here is always a choice and if someone can’t say what they feel needs to be said with love, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control, then they need to take a moment, pray for some infusion of the Holy Spirit, and try again.

I’m disappointed that we still brandish the word heretic about as if it was a judgment we individual Christians are in a position to make. Heresy, historically, is always the product of a group of people, making it very contextual, exceptionally political, and always very serious. The notion that I could stand up in a seminar at Youth Specialties conference, pronounce someone as heretical, and consider this in any fashion appropriate (be it historically, Christianly, or otherwise) just seems ludicrous. This is not an apology for a laissez-faire approach to theology. Heresy certainly exists, and certainly we can speak of heresy, but we must do a lot more than just assert something like what Leo purportedly asserts. Articulating which heresy Tony is particularly advancing (relativism, to my knowledge has never been determined heretical; if Tony even subscribes to such a view) is at least a more appropriate approach, if one feels so inclined. However, that takes a lot more work, considerably more tact, and an ability to point out precisely those underlying assumptions and presuppositions that warrant such a charge. That would involve a discussion over coffee or dinner, because it would take a lot longer to hash out, and that just doesn’t seem the point of what Leo is up to. It took until 451 to get to Chalcedon, which means requisite caution was exercised over plenty of years before declaring certain Christologies beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Stated simply: defining heresy just ain’t as easy as we want it to be!

On a completely different note: Tony, well done in asking Josh Carney to fill in for Dan Kimball in Austin. Josh is a good, good friend of mine with an exceptional mind and even better spirit. He tells me it was good.

I talked with a women who is a Spiritual Director and has her degree from St. Thomas. She is in her mid 70 and a very spirit filled Episcopalian (not the holy roller kind but one who is in touch with the Holy).

I told her about Tony’s encounter at the NYWC. Her thoughtful comment was, “Being called a heretic is like wearing a badge of honor. I don’t know who Tony is but you tell him to keep on teaching or whatever he does. You know, Dave, some saints of the church were also called heretic at one time or another.”

So Saint Tony … do you like that title or Dr. Tony or it could be The Most Rev. Saint Dr. Tony Jones the heretic? And your feast day would be on April 1st or your birthday. You pick! 😉

Interesting episode. I won’t comment on that directly. Just thought I’d put a plug in for my supervisor’s book because it deals intimately with the subject of heresy (and so I thought you might be interested) and the birth of tolerance in early modernity: John Marshall, “John Locke, Toleration, and Early Enlightenment Culture”.

Tony,
My husband and I were at your Theological Tools seminar and enjoyed ourselves terribly. I wrote about the seminar on my blog for some friends who couldn’t be in St Louis. Both my husband and I were totally impressed by how content Lily was during the seminar, and I was watching her watch you while you talked. As a mom-to-be, I hope that we are able to be such strong spiritual role models to our child. We wanted to snatch you and discuss parenting, but never got the chance. Thanks for sharing some wisdom with us!

“Way to go, TJ! I think it’s an honor to be called a heretic. Maybe you should add that to your resume . . .”

Maybe that’s why “TJ” tried to get the guy to call him a heretic in the first place.

The Jewish religious leaders did not–at least I dont think they did–have the word heretic for Jesus, or they would have called him that. Instead they crucified him. Later the word heretic was applied to many who voiced ways foward who were also crucified or burned at the stake. Oddly enough the church usually ended up following them. (of course there were the Gnostic heretics who were truly heretics because they were taking the formulating a Christian Gnosticism and there aint such a thing).

Tony, all the more need and reason for your new book to come out. And when you’ve spent that much time and care to articulate things in print I am glad you did not take the time to go into a detailed apologetic here.

You have many brothers and sisters standing with you, on this same journey. We may not agree always. I don’t think you would want us to. Because as you said in your book, its our conversations in conversation with those who came before us, under the gudiance of the Spirit that leads us to clearer articulations of truth and doctrine.

Peace bro.

“It’s what someone says,” Mike told her, “when they’re trying to hurt and silence someone else. It’s been used a lot in history, and often against people who are really onto something.”

Sure, that’s what it means to be a heretic if rational truth is simply a matter of political might. But it isn’t. In fact, rational truth has little to do with political might. It is true that being put out of the church has in many times and places been at bottom a matter of political might – so don’t sign up for Roman Catholicism! That doesn’t mean we need to trash the notion of orthodoxy. And Eric’s right; there’s certainly nothing essentially heretical about relativism per se. But c’mon, Tony. Deepen your sense of what orthodoxy means. The shortsightedness of the orthodoxy-equals-hegemony polemic is getting old. Walter Bauer is dead, haven’t you heard?

Tertullian,

Thanks for getting my name right. 🙂

And, by my suggesting that concilliar statements regarding heretics are deeply political does not mean they are untrue. Rather, my hope was to point out that heresy is a difficult and serious matter, not a charge to throw around flippantly. Again, to talk about heresy today would mean a greater attention to the context in which certain views were described as such, appropriately draw paralleling comparisons to the present, and then clearly showing the views in question fit. That would take considerable care, precision, and caution, not a NYWC seminar room.

Tertullian,

Fair enough. I’ll leave Tony to reply as I now understand your comment to be more particularly directed to him.

Tony, this reminds me, in a /very/ tangential way, of my experience last night. I took son Daniel (12) to his first football game. Cal / USC – at Berkeley. It was raining. We got soaked. Great time!

Making the long walk to the stadium, we passed endless wild frat houses. He asked – “Dad, what are all these houses with guys drinking beer and acting weird?”

As we got closer to Memorial Stadium, the ear splitting chants got louder and more frequent: “f*** the Bears!!” (or) “f*** the Trojans!!” Now, Dan doesn’t lead a “sheltered life” but we don’t (OK, rarely) swear at home, and try to limit his exposure to social / media garbage.

There was more (aggressive student behaviors, verbal fights, campus police removing two people just in front of us, etc.), but the point is – venturing out into the “real world” with our kids is risky. AND healthy.

In the bigger picture, at 12 years old, and a reader of 2-3 “grown-up” books per week, Dan is able to process all this – heck, maybe this experience will subconsciously attract him to Cal Berkeley as a university option?

But at 6 years old, and with a stated caveat up front, your daughter should have never been subjected to such a public character assault. In this case, the weakness of character falls squarely on your accuser.

I believe history also teaches us, like your friend Mike said, that men like Arius, Pelagius, Servetus, etc, were onto something too… Be careful with what you teach to yourself and then to others man. Just an advice!

Tony,

I too was in attendance at the seminar and was grieved by what occurred. First of all, as the father of a 5-year-old girl myself, I noticed how well behaved Lily was during the seminar. She did great. No doubt you are a proud papa. Secondly, I am also sad that she had to witness her father attacked that way. Although visibly frustrated with the exchange, you handled the situation with grace, and as pointed out in other posts, it gave you the opportunity for a great life-lesson with your daughter. Thirdly, I think it’s great that you brought her with you to the conference in the first place. What a great opportunity for her to spend quality time with daddy. I certainly appreciate your body of work as an author and thinker, but most of all, I appreciate your efforts to be a great dad!

Where is Leo’s response to your posting? Is this gentleman aware of you posting his faux pas? I don’t know that I’m in either your “camp” nor “his” Theologically/Epistemologically/Ideologically/Philosophically/etc., but maybe having your daughter present in the world of academia isn’t the best idea? I can’t imagine you would want your daughter “around the table of discussion” that once upon a time led to Christians killing other Christians. I pray God we never return to those darks days, but I’m terrified that my suspicion that history is cyclical is true.

Keep fighting the good fight Tony, I enjoy your writings as they challenge and affirm much of my own thoughts. I’m sorry that you weren’t at Atlanta for YS, it would have been great to be there to interact with you and other agreers, dissenters, and apathetics.